Breakout Kings: Werewolf Style (Game over - village wins)

[JAG]

Fun game EF, probably the most enjoyable 'vanilla' game I've followed.

I don't really get the undeserved win comment but I don't want to go into that. Julio, nice first game as a wolf. I think the village had a pretty good game other than unluckily having Ray on the block early and not getting much value from our roles.

[Danny]

Good game so far, surprised that Danny is posting.

Yeah on my phone post during commercials and breaks. Helps me seem busy so my grandma doesnt talk during game

[EagleFan]

Fun game EF, probably the most enjoyable 'vanilla' game I've followed.

I don't really get the undeserved win comment but I don't want to go into that. Julio, nice first game as a wolf. I think the village had a pretty good game other than unluckily having Ray on the block early and not getting much value from our roles.

I guess it's more that I think Julio deserved a better shake at the end; especially when it seemed that the most damning thing against him was a vote that he made after a reveal, when the two things happened pretty much at the same time. No chance to argue his case today. While the relatively inactive Chubby saw no heat.

[LoneStarGirl]

Incidently I know we get bored at the end of games and like adding funny comments but I think we need to dial back a little on dead people making comments in thread while the game is still going on. Happened in portal and in this game where some comments were borderline ABOUT the game and the wolves have a hard enough time trying to convince villagers of things like "how many wolves are left" without someone unintentionally putting an idea in their head.

Who would do such a thing?

[Danny]

Chubby shouldnt have receieved heat, it was pretty pbvious he wasnt a wolf. It was pretty pbvious to me after cpnsidering everything that the right vote for today was julio.

[LoneStarGirl]

and yes lonestar...yesyes you were right all along ha!

somebody earlier in the game called me rusty, but I think it's one of the best games I've ever played. I just need to work on getting people to follow me, and be more convincing with my arguments

[JAG]

This game went entirely wrong as far as the mechanics that I had planned.

It seems like that's the Murphy's Law of running a game. In my Asgard game almost half the players were vanilla villages and I had some cool mechanics for them upon death, and it took something like 4 days until one died and it just ended up being a sideshow.

[Passacaglia]

It wasnt a case of probably the wolf left was te cunning, it was 100%. I wasnt making wild assumptions, the rules were clear. If i got killed and you were up for lynch, you think anyone would have beloeved your story?

It seems like you're the only one who thinks it was 100% (including the person who wrote the rules).

[EagleFan]

What should people base their vote pn then? The voting analysis (who when and why) has been the same simce i started playing and its easily been the best way of catching wolves. Post analysis soild be used to but i dont agree that too mich emphasis is placed on vote analysis. It is what caused me to push for britrock and then to vote julio in the end

Post analysis. It's like playing poker, you have to find the bluff. You shouldn't play poker based entirely on betting history. I've seen too many games where myself or someone comes out with a valid theory based on how someone was acting and it got shot down because that person had a "good voting history"; only for it to bite us in the end.

The worst games that I have played as a villager are games where I fall into the voting history trap and start looking at that too much. That is why I stopped keeping the voting history lately when I played.

The best games that I have played are when I carefully watch reactions to events or posts. Call someone a wolf here or there and see what shakes out. Claim unyielding trust for someone and see if they change anything about how they play or get too comfortable.

Only then will voting history help.

At least in my opinion. But we know what opinions are like...

[Danny]

Yeah lsg was in the zone this game before she got killed

[Danny]

Yeah on my phone post during commercials and breaks. Helps me seem busy so my grandma doesnt talk during game

It seems like you're the only one who thinks it was 100% (including the person who wrote the rules).

And i was right.

Explain a realistic scenario to me where the wolves remaining were not crimson and the cunning at that time?

[Autumn]

That's how I sussed out Golden Eagle this time around, just watching to see who reacted how to the votes, and then how he reacted to some pressure. Doesn't always work but it's nice when it does.

[JAG]

I guess it's more that I think Julio deserved a better shake at the end; especially when it seemed that the most damning thing against him was a vote that he made after a reveal, when the two things happened pretty much at the same time. No chance to argue his case today. While the relatively inactive Chubby saw no heat.

I felt like Danny made a pretty convincing case why Chubby was unlikely to be a wolf based on his votes and those who had voted for him. Voting analysis isn't bulletproof, especially with clever or daring wolves, but I think it's always worth looking at as part of the puzzle. Post analysis is a bit more difficult because we have a lot of good liars here.

I guess I felt like the village played a solid game in a challenging ruleset.

[EagleFan]

It seems like that's the Murphy's Law of running a game. In my Asgard game almost half the players were vanilla villages and I had some cool mechanics for them upon death, and it took something like 4 days until one died and it just ended up being a sideshow.

It seeems to go one way or the other. I either have a triggered type of event planned for that never gets triggered or I put something in that would take exactly like what happened in this game to blow it.

Oh well, back to planning for TAR 2. :)

[EagleFan]

And i was right.

Explain a realistic scenario to me where the wolves remaining were not crimson and the cunning at that time?

Vanilla wolves, most all games have them. :)

[LoneStarGirl]

The night I got night killed I put in an order to protect myself because I knew Julio in all his wolfy glory would come after me. Then Ray came out and revealed himself, and I couldn't decide if I should protect myself or him... Which is why I proposed that question, 'who should be the protected?' which kinda gave away the fact I was the body guard. If I would have stayed with my gut and not moved to protect bhlloy this game would have been done early.

[Passacaglia]

And i was right.

Explain a realistic scenario to me where the wolves remaining were not crimson and the cunning at that time?

Being right is different from it being 100%. I thought it was likely, too, just not 100%.

The realistic scenario involves having another wolf, or that Ronnie could have the ability to see through the cunning.

[LoneStarGirl]

I felt like Danny made a pretty convincing case why Chubby was unlikely to be a wolf based on his votes and those who had voted for him. Voting analysis isn't bulletproof, especially with clever or daring wolves, but I think it's always worth looking at as part of the puzzle. Post analysis is a bit more difficult because we have a lot of good liars here.

I guess I felt like the village played a solid game in a challenging ruleset.

I agree. If I was still in this game at that point I would have followed him

[JAG]

JAG, that's your cue! JAG has a forum we've used before for outside discussion about the game itself. It's been very successful too. I'll let him advertise it more but you should alert him to give you a username/password and the address. That keeps the idle corpses happy really :)

Yeah, I really should've started a thread for this one. Next time.

[Passacaglia]

And congrats on getting your grandma not to talk during the game!

[Danny]

Vanilla wolves, most all games have them. :)

No chance. I knew ronnie could have been converted and a roles player could have been converted, no way there were 4 starting wolves in a game this size wrh two potwntial converts.

[EagleFan]

I was hoping that brit would use his second ability.

He could help a "non runner" escape the lynch. You would not know the details of the person that he saved just that he somehow escaped the lynch.

Example: if Danny was the lynch vote you would have been told that you cannot find Danny, he had somehow escaped the lynch and is still in the game.

I wasn't sure if it would get used but thought it could lead to an ineresting slight of hand by the wolved.

[JAG]

Why did the wolves not brutal bhlloy N2?

[EagleFan]

Really Devils fans? You saw that replay and think it's a goal?

[Danny]

And congrats on getting your grandma not to talk during the game!

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but lets nt make this personal in out of game matters. You have no idea what i sacrifce for my family.

[EagleFan]

Why did the wolves not brutal bhlloy N2?

GE submitted the brutal before the reveal and never changed it.

A chain of events would have been triggered if they did.

LSG would have bocked the NK on herself that night as that was her conditional (protect bhlloy unless he was brutaled then self protect). That would mean that either her or CF would have been converted and there would have been a night with no night kill which would have probably caused all sorts of speculation about a conversion.

[EagleFan]

...and that conversion ad loss of powers would have come about as planned, over the next two nights.

Does that mean I can blame GE for the crashing of those mechanics? ;)

[Passacaglia]

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but lets nt make this personal in out of game matters. You have no idea what i sacrifce for my family.

It was sarcastic -- I was just making fun of how you quoted your own post randomly here in the midst of all this WW discussion. I don't get why you would take it personally. :confused:

[Autumn]

I forget all about that stuff now. Yeah, I thought it was crazy they didn't brutal Bhlloy.

I can't believe bhlloy didn't use that other ability. I would love something like that as a wolf. Talk about messing with their minds.

[Danny]

Oh, i meant to quote efs post askimg wjy i was posting durimg game. No harm done

[Danny]

Wow either post game ww discussions or the hockey gameos goomg to give me a heart attack

[Danny]

I must say it was very nice to actually live through a game like this. I can't remember the last time that happened as a villager.

[britrock88]

I was hoping that brit would use his second ability.

He could help a "non runner" escape the lynch. You would not know the details of the person that he saved just that he somehow escaped the lynch.

Example: if Danny was the lynch vote you would have been told that you cannot find Danny, he had somehow escaped the lynch and is still in the game.

I wasn't sure if it would get used but thought it could lead to an ineresting slight of hand by the wolved.

I was looking forward to it... but GE got a lot of heat on Day 2, I tried to cover for him while he and LSG were busy in real life, and drew everyone's attention myself. If my role had given me 2 days' safety, I would have used it the next night, absolutely. I wonder how useful/confusing it might have been at that point.

[britrock88]

It's very unusual (unique?) to have a mechanic where you know you're going to be converted, Britrock, so it isn't something that has come up a lot.

I think my stance, and I think Danny's, is that you should play for the team you're on as long as you're on that team, rather than play the optimal play for you. I think since there's no actual consequences of winning or losing in this game it's easy to metagame things, but I think usually the spirit of the game is to play for your team.

It's ironic this happened this game since my next ruleset also depends on people playing in the spirit of their team. So it's a good time to discuss this I guess!

Reading your premise, I got that feeling, which brought me back to this discussion. We'll see how any affected players cope with this next game!

[britrock88]

What should people base their vote pn then? The voting analysis (who when and why) has been the same simce i started playing and its easily been the best way of catching wolves. Post analysis soild be used to but i dont agree that too mich emphasis is placed on vote analysis. It is what caused me to push for britrock and then to vote julio in the end

I know I was obvious for avoiding GE on Day 2, but I didn't expect my moving from Julio to Chubby immediately in the footsteps of bhlloy would be so damning of Julio. I honestly thought that it might help people catch on to the fact that I was trying to avoid GE and push ANY plausible second candidate, thereby giving Julio some breathing room. Too bad it didn't work out that way.

[Julio Riddols]

This one was exciting from the get go. I tried to play it as if I were a villager for the most part, but my wolf bias was pretty obvious (far more obvious than I had expected it would be) when the votes were looked at. I was stubborn about moving to GE early when he got a lot of heat, but he was the most experienced wolf on the team and I felt like that would have been a huge loss out of the gate for us, so I tried unsuccessfully to find a logical reason to disagree with his being lynched. We got lucky though and hit a few big night kills early, so losing GE wasn't as damning as it could have been, but once britrock got picked up on it was just a matter of time.

Watching the numbers dwindle I felt there was an outside shot for us, but I am not certain my night kill choices would have been enough to win if I had done them differently either.

Learned a lot and enjoyed my first time wolfing it up, but I think I was a bit of a detriment to my team early with my lack of experience and being unavailable much of two days early in the game.

And yeah, LSG had us pegged right off the bat. I'll be watching what I say and do from now on around her. I was very lucky no one else followed her line of thought much til the endgame approached.

Much fun was had, that is for sure. I felt like it was my first day at a new school every time I came back to see what had happened in the thread, knowing I was a wolf. Anxious and nervous.

[Chubby]

Yay we won! I tried to play it quieter because I always die when I talk!

[CrimsonFox]

That's how I sussed out Golden Eagle this time around, just watching to see who reacted how to the votes, and then how he reacted to some pressure. Doesn't always work but it's nice when it does.


yeah I read it similarly although I thought GE was wolfy before that with his voting explanations. That's why I went to him. When I unvoted him and went to bhlloy that was just show. I knew bhlloy was a villager likely for his reactions to things.

[CrimsonFox]

Yay we won! I tried to play it quieter because I always die when I talk!

except the parts that you were talkative. And talkative about wanting to be quiet. How deliciously ironic.

[CrimsonFox]

Chubby, who would you have voted for between julio, Narc, and silent pass if danny was NKed? Narc same question.

[CrimsonFox]

somebody earlier in the game called me rusty, but I think it's one of the best games I've ever played. I just need to work on getting people to follow me, and be more convincing with my arguments


yeah I was pretty happy with my villager play as well.

[CrimsonFox]

13) CrimsonFox - Erica Reed (day five lynch)


yay I won!
wah I lost!

[CrimsonFox]

Chubby shouldnt have receieved heat, it was pretty pbvious he wasnt a wolf. It was pretty pbvious to me after cpnsidering everything that the right vote for today was julio.

heh why? He could have been a wolf. He didn't actually vote for GE but made fun of other people for not doing it. That could have easily been a wolf doing that once GE was getting a bunch of votes

[CrimsonFox]

I guess it's more that I think Julio deserved a better shake at the end; especially when it seemed that the most damning thing against him was a vote that he made after a reveal, when the two things happened pretty much at the same time. No chance to argue his case today. While the relatively inactive Chubby saw no heat.

yeah that last day was weird. Not that Danny changed his mind. He often does that. But I never saw the nightfall coming especially from Narc who chastises people in other games for nightfalling on the later days. And when he was that suspicious of danny.

The other two going quiet really hurt him. In fact I purposely did not nightfall so that all the paranoia and arguing would continue over the weekend to give julio a better shot. I wonder now if they had done that vote on friday if danny would have gut reactionvoted to narc instead.

[CrimsonFox]

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9eD54-PElQ0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

okay7 those clips are AWESOME. Where were they from? All kinds of places or just one movie?

[CrimsonFox]

Dangit, I should have gone with ketchup and relish, that would have made much more sense!

The wisest thing ever said in a WW game. ketchup and relish....yes! :)
but you did indeed blow it :)

[CrimsonFox]

I think a better comparison would be...

You are a criminal that was working with the police but are about to attempt to escape from prison. Do you tell the cops 12 hours before you escape where you are escaping to?

Not really for me. I knew nothing about the theme so I really wasn't thinking about that. It is instead. I am a WW player on the side of good who is doing his job as seer before I die. Saying "I know I will be converted" is metagaming and I didn't want to do that. Even in your flavortext you said that it was because Ray died that sent me over the edge and give up the good life to go on the run. Ehhh I just think it needed some hardfast tweaks in the rules if you want to make sure something goes the way you want it. Even put contingency rules in the behind the scenes rules that you don't have to list up front. LIke "if things really break, then this can happen so that said game stays fun". That kinda thing. But I geuss the problem here was we knew bhlloy was dying. So we were prepped with our moves.

[CrimsonFox]

Hey Narc! Join the fun!

[Narcizo]

As a wolf I'll take a village who rely on post analysis and gut over ones who use voting analysis any day.

When I woke up I was sure Danny was the wolf even though logic dictated he couldn't be. I was shocked to see that we'd won. I actually thought Julio was the wolf when we lynched Chief but had I said that at the time I thought it would look like I was laying the ground for the next day. Sorry Chief.

I think Danny and Autumn had great games. Danny for reading the night kills and not voting me if nothing else. I also think me being (almost) able to forget my certainties and vote logically is pretty huge for me. I definitely think the village deserved the win in a very tough ruleset.

[Danny]

As a wolf I'll take a village who rely on post analysis and gut over ones who use voting analysis any day.

Yep, Vote analysis (which again is not just who someone votes for, but when they vote, the circumstances of the vote, their explanation of the votes and their typical patterns of play) and other objective info (nk choice, etc...) is especially key the further you get in games.

I certainly rely on gut, especially early in games, but the further a game gets, the less emphasis that should be placed on gut.

[Danny]

Narcizo, you had a great game as well. I actually think as a whole the village was a fantastic in a game they were the underdogs in.

[Narcizo]

I agree completely about the conversion mechanic as well. If it has to be in, and I'm not sure it does - but I guess if the GM wants people not to rely on vote analysis that makes sense - people should be aware that it exists but it shouldn't be something the convertee knows is going to happen to them.

I also think that having a completely hidden rule mechanic that has the potential to radically change the character of the game is a bit dubious. But again I can see that the idea was to lessen the value of vote analysis. However as a villager there's nothing more frustrating than playing in that sort of game where you have no idea what's going on. I always thought those sorts of games were more for the benefit of the GM and the wolves while the villagers are just the stooges put there to provide entertainment for the GM.

Something I learned GMing RPGs - as a GM you should never, ever rely on the players reacting in a certain way. They almost certainly never will. But that's what makes things interactive and interesting.

[Danny]

Narc, I think people give me too much credit as a wolf. I can do a good job helping coming up with wolf strategies, but overall I really think I am only a mediocre wolf.

[CrimsonFox]

I also think that having a completely hidden rule mechanic that has the potential to radically change the character of the game is a bit dubious. But again I can see that the idea was to lessen the value of vote analysis. However as a villager there's nothing more frustrating than playing in that sort of game where you have no idea what's going on. I always thought those sorts of games were more for the benefit of the GM and the wolves while the villagers are just the stooges put there to provide entertainment for the GM.


Having mystery in games is actually fun I think and not Not fun. I keep seeing people trying to break games and uberreveal things and force others to reveal things that can really take away a game's pizzazz. Since reveals really have the power to completely destroy a game having things in a game that are a mystery is sometimes the only way to combat that AND keep it fun for everybody. No I do not think any GM sits back and laughs at either side. Have you seen that in the past? GMs hide some things because they HAVE to otherwise people do their best to unravel all the rules. And really we've all played enough games that it is obvious that most any rule people can think of has been encountered before. I guess the only thing that a GM should do if it isn't obvious that there may be secrets in a game is to somewhere in the rules SAY that there may be things in a game that aren't listed in the rules. That way the whole argument is moot.

Actually it DID say about Ronnie that it was pretty unknown. And it was unknown even to the wolves. So there really could have been another wolf at the end. I really didn't understand Danny's logic that simply because he outed Pass that Pass was innocent. Danny could have known something about Pass and still been a wolf, they both could be wolves, they both could have been something else. But granted yes you telling us all the rules you had makes it unlikely that you're anything but villager. I guess that's what I mean about uberreveals for villagers. I guess the moral is, never give villagers choices. Give them powers they have to use if you want them to use them.

I kinda found that in my item games like Evil Dead and Portal, people tended to hang onto things unless they were a wolf and then they would use them immediately. Perhaps I should rethink the choice thing and force people to use things or lose them. Speaking of the players will do, Portal had several other things planned that I didn't get to do because of how fast that game went. IT was funny because I orioginally designed that game for a smaller crowd, then expanded it based on signups :)

[Danny]

Crimson, you have to find a balance I think with hidden info as it does make things harder on the village. One thing I think 100% though is that the village absolutely needs to know whether there is hidden info. There needs to be some clause in the rules about there may be hidden roles, items etc... Also that needs to be taken into account in regards to giving the wolves their powers and numbers.

[Danny]

I really didn't understand Danny's logic that simply because he outed Pass that Pass was innocent. Danny could have known something about Pass and still been a wolf, they both could be wolves, they both could have been something else.


I am not sure if I understand what you are saying exactly. I knew Pass was a villager because I was specifically told so. It also was clear that either we were both wolves or neither of us wolves as we both claimed the other was a villager.

[Danny]

Also, I think the whole point of the village is to try and figure out the hidden info. Thats why as a villager, especially vanilla I will always be as revealing and open as humanly possible.

You can't just have game where everything is hidden and no one ever reveals anything. Thats an easy game for the wolves or just blind luck if the village happens to win. Any hidden info has to be able to be figured out by a well playing village.

[Danny]

And I tried running a game like that and while it was very active and fun for most of the game, it was a total failure in the end, so I should know ;)

[CrimsonFox]

Also, I think the whole point of the village is to try and figure out the hidden info. Thats why as a villager, especially vanilla I will always be as revealing and open as humanly possible.

You can't just have game where everything is hidden and no one ever reveals anything. Thats an easy game for the wolves or just blind luck if the village happens to win. Any hidden info has to be able to be figured out by a well playing village.

exactly. And I've been talking about this from more a game designer/runner perspective. Yes as villagers people want to reveal. So as a GM to keep them from doing so, when you have a role that can reveal you have to impose a negative for revealing, like getting killed etc. So very much like your package I think back to vegas where people were drumming up things like hey everybody tell us everything about your votes and bets and such. That kind of undermines the whole special ruleset really even though yes it trying to find wolves. I think that's why I more appreciate unusual abe games which are less about werewolves. That way people are more playing for themselves and less us vs them. Would like to see more nonWW games woven into the mix. As for WW itself I think that's why I have so many vanillas in my games because straight out reveals of so much stuff just makes it impossible for the wolves and thus it becomes more about voting and postreading.

[CrimsonFox]

I just realized I"m talking about Danny's package.

[CrimsonFox]

And I tried running a game like that and while it was very active and fun for most of the game, it was a total failure in the end, so I should know ;)

a game like what? And what was fun/what failed?

And really if it was fun then it was a success.

[CrimsonFox]

Also, I think the whole point of the village is to try and figure out the hidden info. Thats why as a villager, especially vanilla I will always be as revealing and open as humanly possible.

You can't just have game where everything is hidden and no one ever reveals anything. Thats an easy game for the wolves or just blind luck if the village happens to win. Any hidden info has to be able to be figured out by a well playing village.

Maybe if the wolves were tied into your package somehow it would have made it less likely for you to reveal. Like if one wolf could also scan for packageperson and get an instant death out of it and person with package knew that?

[Danny]

a game like what? And what was fun/what failed?

And really if it was fun then it was a success.

Well, it got ruined at the end. It was the Group Therapy Game. Everyone had a role, but role reveals were not allowed.

[Danny]

I just realized I"m talking about Danny's package.

Can't fault you for that, it's hard not to talk about it

[Danny]

Well, it got ruined at the end. It was the Group Therapy Game. Everyone had a role, but role reveals were not allowed.

But basically roles got revealed in an indirect way and then I had to talk a wolf out of posting the names of all the wolves and pm's and things. Was a fun game for me the first half, but awful the second half of the game.

[Autumn]

But basically roles got revealed in an indirect way and then I had to talk a wolf out of posting the names of all the wolves and pm's and things. Was a fun game for me the first half, but awful the second half of the game.

Yeah that was rough. I think when we design games we have to assume the villagers are going to do whatever it takes to win. It's really impossible not to, if you're engaging in the game. So we've had a few games where everybody had roles, like that one, and there has to be some mechanical reason not to reveal I think. Otherwise even if you're "not allowed", if that's how to win the game people are going to find a way around it.

[EagleFan]

I disagree with a few statements.

One, being that the village was the underdog. They had a big edge going in which is why I couldn't add Charlie to the mix. Ronnie was a wild card that could be either wolf, villager or 2nd wolf team by the end.

Look at what werewolf has become over the past couple years. It's been all about being bullied by a few into "playing by the book". Hell, Poli got ripped because his day one voting strategy "made it harder to tell when he was a wolf". Granted, he did some other things worthy of being ripped for, but not his day one approach.

The game is only fun when it's unpredictable to a controlled degree.

Predictable and by the book leads to half of the players sitting by silently. Or posting about sitting by silently. That doesn't benefit the game at all.

[CrimsonFox]

Look at what werewolf has become over the past couple years. It's been all about being bullied by a few into "playing by the book".



+10000000000000000 I already pointed out that was happening and it's really been happening as far back as when I first started playing.



The game is only fun when it's unpredictable to a controlled degree.



+55555555555555

Well not ONLY fun when that happens but frequently. Sure vanilla games are fun occasionally but I think more people like it when there's something new to chew on otherwise they don't join. Granted there are people who ONLY like straight vanilla games which really there are enough of.

[Danny]

Ef, can you clarify what you mean in regards to playing by the book? I dont think im understanding your argument yet

[CrimsonFox]

Ef, can you clarify what you mean in regards to playing by the book? I dont think im understanding your argument yet

Well I think I know what he means so I'll say my version. Many think there is a way to play WW in EVERY circumstance and thus expect and even DEMAND other people play that way and when others don't play that way especially newer players, they get mad or chastise. Like "a wolf wouldn't change their vote here because I wouldn't if I was a wolf" and "I wouldn't do things like this as a villager and therefore no one would and no one should". Those kinds of arguments.

[Danny]

But i dont see anyone tellimg others who to vote for, but sure why would you not analyze an action as being less likely to come from a wolf, etcc and potentially use that as spmething to base your vote on.

[Danny]

For me its about assessing probability and making the best choice based on that, i understand nt everyone wants to play that way, but i do disagree with your basic premise in that the vocal guys arw what hurts ww

[Danny]

I love playing with the type of players you describe. For me wjat ruins the game is players who check in once day, make a random vote if any and then leave.

[EagleFan]

For me its about assessing probability and making the best choice based on that, i understand nt everyone wants to play that way, but i do disagree with your basic premise in that the vocal guys arw what hurts ww

No one is saying that active players are what hurt the game. The problem is that there starts to be a core group that will almost force others underground. Look at Chubby this game, nearly silent the whole game which adds nothing to a game (sorry Chubby) but he did that because "when he talked he would get lynched".

The game is more fun when it is about reading people and the only way you can read people is to get them talking. It's a social game, so it needs to be kept social.

[EagleFan]

dola: I must say that is what made that Marvel game great. That everyone had a different signon that was used and no one knew who the others were.

[Autumn]

It seems like having preconceptions about how wolves and villagers acts doesn't bully anyone into doing those things, though, it actually encourages the opposite. Certainly people get rigid in their thinking about what "Must have" happened, but it seems that just bites those people back and they lose. I guess I'm not seeing how that impacts others. Do you guys feel like there's a social pressure to only play a certain way? What's the fall out, that people get voted out if they're not playing the way people expect?

[Danny]

No one is saying that active players are what hurt the game. The problem is that there starts to be a core group that will almost force others underground. Look at Chubby this game, nearly silent the whole game which adds nothing to a game (sorry Chubby) but he did that because "when he talked he would get lynched".

The game is more fun when it is about reading people and the only way you can read people is to get them talking. It's a social game, so it needs to be kept social.

But is chubbu really lynched if he talks or was that just an excuse? I just dont buy it, when someone isnt active, it is on them, not on others.

[EagleFan]

It seems like having preconceptions about how wolves and villagers acts doesn't bully anyone into doing those things, though, it actually encourages the opposite. Certainly people get rigid in their thinking about what "Must have" happened, but it seems that just bites those people back and they lose. I guess I'm not seeing how that impacts others. Do you guys feel like there's a social pressure to only play a certain way? What's the fall out, that people get voted out if they're not playing the way people expect?

The fallout would be like we went through a little while back with barely able to get 10 people per game as everyone starts to leave the game.

[Danny]

Ef it just seems to be coming across that you want everyone to play the way you want them too, which is the same thing you are critisizing others of doing.

[Danny]

The fallout would be like we went through a little while back with barely able to get 10 people per game as everyone starts to leave the game.

But that was the result of one persons actions clmbined with suddenly many of our regulars having busier schedules

[Danny]

And further impacted because fof is dead and these forums do not have any influx of new members

[Passacaglia]

dola: I must say that is what made that Marvel game great. That everyone had a different signon that was used and no one knew who the others were.

I agree -- although if I recall, an identity got revealed at the end, and IMO, that changed things immediately. But it was a lot of fun, and I'd really like to do that again.

[Autumn]

It is tons of fun to have the anonymous identities. It's not fun when people get pigeonholed.

I think it's just part of Werewolf that people get lynched when they talk though. That's just because people are paranoid and will latch onto something. I don't see it as a symptom of a problem, but maybe I'm just missing the point.

[bhlloy]

Maybe not a problem for you autumn, but I find it frustrating enough that I've sworn never to play again a couple of times after going through a couple games in a row of being lynched in the first few days just for being vocal.

I'd love to see a game where people are rewarded for actually contributing. It would be far too subjective maybe but what the hell. A good GM might make it work

[Autumn]

Yeah, I wasn't aware of that, sorry bhlloy. I used to get lynched early every game, just because I post a lot, basically. So I know how that feels.

I think the real solution though is for everyone to post more (well not everyone *clears throat*). If everybody's posting it can't really happen, because there's tons of stuff to get paranoid about. I mean we either can lynch the people who don't post, which we go through runs of and there's backlash to that, or we can lynch from the people who are talking. The problem, in my mind, comes when there's only a few people talking and so naturally they're going to get all the stinkeye in their direction.

I'm not sure what other solutions there are. This feels like a basic problem with Werewolf online, but it sounds like people are feeling there's something more particular about our culture that is exacerbating it. I'd like to hear more about that to understand it.

[EagleFan]

Maybe not a problem for you autumn, but I find it frustrating enough that I've sworn never to play again a couple of times after going through a couple games in a row of being lynched in the first few days just for being vocal.

I'd love to see a game where people are rewarded for actually contributing. It would be far too subjective maybe but what the hell. A good GM might make it work

I thought about trying something that rewards for contributing but it really becomes subjective and that could cause major issues with people getting angry because they feel they deserved something too.

Though, The Amazing Race 2 will have some of that with the race portion of the game, though the WW portion will only be affected in that doing well in the race keeps you alive in thread for posting and participating (I think it made for a fun twist last time around).

[Autumn]

Though, The Amazing Race 2 will have some of that with the race portion of the game, though the WW portion will only be affected in that doing well in the race keeps you alive in thread for posting and participating (I think it made for a fun twist last time around).

Yeah that was a fun mechanic and actually made quite clear how powerful it is to keep good villagers around.

[Narcizo]

One, being that the village was the underdog. They had a big edge going in which is why I couldn't add Charlie to the mix. Ronnie was a wild card that could be either wolf, villager or 2nd wolf team by the end.


We lynched 2 villagers compared to lynching a wolf 5 times and the game went to the wire. If Crimson hadn't outed himself we would have been screwed. I think you can say that the village was the underdog.

[Chubby]

No one is saying that active players are what hurt the game. The problem is that there starts to be a core group that will almost force others underground. Look at Chubby this game, nearly silent the whole game which adds nothing to a game (sorry Chubby) but he did that because "when he talked he would get lynched".

The game is more fun when it is about reading people and the only way you can read people is to get them talking. It's a social game, so it needs to be kept social.

part of my "thing" is that you (me) need to vary how you play as well. the next time i'm quiet as a wolf, maybe it won't be so "wolfy" since I was quiet this game as a vanilla. i don't want to play the same way every game because i'll end up having tells based on my real role.

[EagleFan]

part of my "thing" is that you (me) need to vary how you play as well. the next time i'm quiet as a wolf, maybe it won't be so "wolfy" since I was quiet this game as a vanilla. i don't want to play the same way every game because i'll end up having tells based on my real role.

Careful, that got Poli jumped on. People saying that he should be playing for that game and not for next game. ;)

[Chubby]

Careful, that got Poli jumped on. People saying that he should be playing for that game and not for next game. ;)

well it IS possible to do both ;)

they can jump all they want, this isn't an excerise in math. people can play however they want. If CF had not revealed and tried to win as a wolf, i'd see no harm in it whether it's what I would have done or not.

[Danny]

If CF had not revealed and tried to win as a wolf, i'd see no harm in it whether it's what I would have done or not.

Yeah, I would have played it the same way CF did, but I actually wouldn't have had an issue if he had played it the other way. I know I said otherwise in thread, but as a villager I said that to hopefully encourage whoever was the seer to help my side win the game.

[Chubby]

Yeah, I would have played it the same way CF did, but I actually wouldn't have had an issue if he had played it the other way. I know I said otherwise in thread, but as a villager I said that to hopefully encourage whoever was the seer to help my side win the game.

i kinda figured :D

[CrimsonFox]

Yeah, I would have played it the same way CF did, but I actually wouldn't have had an issue if he had played it the other way. I know I said otherwise in thread, but as a villager I said that to hopefully encourage whoever was the seer to help my side win the game.

Funny thing. The only time it crossed my head that that was even an option was WHEN you said all that stuff.

[britrock88]

(facepalm)

[CrimsonFox]

(facepalm)

No no no. I mean. I knew it was an option but wasn't ever going to do it. The only time I thought "Hmmm well maybe I will." is when I started taking shit in the thread even before I had the chance to reveal.