Microsoft Surface announcement

[cartman]

Looks like they might have a winner with this. There are a lot of IT shops that have avoided embracing the iPad due to interoperability and supportability issues. If these devices work anywhere near like they do in the product announcement show, look for the iPad to have a strong opponent in the enterprise market. I think the iPad will still be the platform to beat in the consumer realm.

http://live.theverge.com/microsoft-live-blog-tablet-announcement/

[mckerney]

It's the first tablet that's really looked interesting to me. Never thought much of buying one before, but depending on things like openness of the version of Windows they put on it, battery life and price I may strongly consider it. If I could run some of the Windows programs I do no I would be very interested in it.

Definitely agree with you on the business market too. Things like built in stand , keyboard the the cover, the stylus support it has and Office being included seem aimed towards winning over business users.

[Eaglesfan27]

Very intriguing. I will definitely check it out once it is released.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, glad to see more competition in the space too. And a business tablet would be highly interesting to me.

[mckerney]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dpzu3HM2CIo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jeff061]

So other than Windows 8, what sets it apart?

[gstelmack]

My only concern with this and Windows Phone is that Microsoft constantly squanders advantages in the mobile space. I'll go back to my Dell Axim, that I had to drop because Vista wouldn't synch that particular version of Windows CE / Mobile / whatever at the time. They work so hard at desktop compatibility, but orphan the mobile bits so fast. I REALLY want a Windows Phone and Tablet to go with my computer and Xbox, but they've got to stop orphaning old products (Zune vs MediaPlayer vs MediaCenter, really?) and segmenting things.

I have high hopes for Windows 8 finally unifying all of this, but they are going to have to overcome the fact that iOS has become the defacto mobile OS. Android may be in a bunch of phones, but the app space is not nearly as rich as iOS, and it's only slowly improving. Is Windows 8 unified enough to overcome the app hurdles? Maybe getting it into the IT space will help, plus the single OS (write single game that runs on PC, phone, tablet, and console?) will FINALLY overcome these hurdles.

I really want it to, otherwise I'll probably have an iPhone and an iPad by this time next year, to go with my Windows 8 PC and Xbox.

[gstelmack]

Oooo, finally watched the video. Keboard built into the cover so I can more easily type notes in meetings? That may be HUGE. I used to do that with my old Palm...

[jeff061]

Oooo, finally watched the video. Keboard built into the cover so I can more easily type notes in meetings? That may be HUGE. I used to do that with my old Palm...

It's just a bluetooth keyboard, haven't keyboard covers been around for awhile now?

The main surprise will be if this thing is priced within $150 of an iPad.

[Scoobz0202]

By only saying "priced competitively" it might be pretty expensive. We'll see.

[RomaGoth]

Looks pretty slick but I would also have concerns about the pricing. Also wondering if it is backward compatible at all, since not everything is going to run on Windows 8 immediately.

[Marc Vaughan]

Looks interesting - think they're shooting it in the foot a little by doing an ARM (non-windows 8) and Intel (Windows 8) version as that confuses things hugely for your average user.

From a developer perspective its C#, but I believe you can 'bridge' into C++ which might make it more viable than Windows Mobile .... looking forward to playing with it.

[stevew]

In for one depending on cost. Especially if it can run FOF, OOTP, and maybe some games like Civ5.

[jeff061]

It's ARM, which is still technically Windows 8, but it's not going to run the same apps your desktop does.

[stevew]

By only saying "priced competitively" it might be pretty expensive. We'll see.

Yeah. Priced competitive to a ultrabook(800-1000$) ain't gonna cut it. Especially when that cover probably costs 99$. What size is this? A 7" will be DOA over $350 and a 10" better not be much more than 500$.

I also saw Toshiba put out a 13" tablet and that size interests me. I think it is $649.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Looks pretty slick but I would also have concerns about the pricing. Also wondering if it is backward compatible at all, since not everything is going to run on Windows 8 immediately.

I found Windows 7 weird. I guess progress is inevitable.

I thought they had backwards compatibility built into 7... could be wrong.

FOF on a tablet? Ability to use all my XP programs on it like a laptop, but it's a tablet? Then we're talking...

[Marc Vaughan]

It's ARM, which is still technically Windows 8, but it's not going to run the same apps your desktop does.

There are two from the sounds of it - one ARM and one Intel, the Intel one 'might' run native Windows 8 apps (most likely Metro based ones?) ... the ARM one will require specific development for sure, but does likely support C++ development as I mentioned.

For me if this needs to be sub-iPad in price and done aggressively to gain marketshare ....

[ISiddiqui]

It appears the ARM one is basically a Windows Phone-like Tablet (with a cover that has a keyboard built in it and a built in stand) and Intel one is basically a full featured Windows 8 laptop in a tablet format (I have read that it can run Office & Photoshop).

[jeff061]

There are two from the sounds of it - one ARM and one Intel, the Intel one 'might' run native Windows 8 apps (most likely Metro based ones?) ... the ARM one will require specific development for sure, but does likely support C++ development as I mentioned.

For me if this needs to be sub-iPad in price and done aggressively to gain marketshare ....

Right, but I don't expect it will be running FOF, Civ, etc... Not without them making a seperate ARM only version.

[gstelmack]

From a developer perspective its C#, but I believe you can 'bridge' into C++ which might make it more viable than Windows Mobile .... looking forward to playing with it.

I don't quite get this: Android is Java, iOS is Objective-C (and requires a Mac to build on), and the Unity engine is C# cross-platform. What is the C++ / C# issue here? And yes, I'm mostly ignorant on mobile development, I've only briefly dabbled and that was looking at some Mono stuff, since I love C# ;)

[MacroGuru]

My only concern with this and Windows Phone is that Microsoft constantly squanders advantages in the mobile space. I'll go back to my Dell Axim, that I had to drop because Vista wouldn't synch that particular version of Windows CE / Mobile / whatever at the time. They work so hard at desktop compatibility, but orphan the mobile bits so fast. I REALLY want a Windows Phone and Tablet to go with my computer and Xbox, but they've got to stop orphaning old products (Zune vs MediaPlayer vs MediaCenter, really?) and segmenting things.

I have high hopes for Windows 8 finally unifying all of this, but they are going to have to overcome the fact that iOS has become the defacto mobile OS. Android may be in a bunch of phones, but the app space is not nearly as rich as iOS, and it's only slowly improving. Is Windows 8 unified enough to overcome the app hurdles? Maybe getting it into the IT space will help, plus the single OS (write single game that runs on PC, phone, tablet, and console?) will FINALLY overcome these hurdles.

I really want it to, otherwise I'll probably have an iPhone and an iPad by this time next year, to go with my Windows 8 PC and Xbox.

I am running Windows 7.5 syncing with the cloud (Both with MS 365 and GMAIL), my home network and with Xbox Companion, my 360. I do own a Samsung Galaxy 10.1 Tablet but I would move to this in a heartbeat if it does what it promises.

[Desnudo]

I love the keyboard + touchpad built into the cover. The stylus feels like when American car companies throw in crap that no driver actually wants because someone in marketing said you needed it.

[jeff061]

I don't have a tablet and wouldn't buy one without a stylus. First thing it would do is replace pen and paper during meetings. If it can't do that, I'm not interested.

[Desnudo]

You can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3 on Amazon.

I see a lot of iPads in meetings and have never seen a stylus once, despite some decent note taking apps out there...

This is a case of perceived need and use vs. actual use.

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't quite get this: Android is Java, iOS is Objective-C (and requires a Mac to build on), and the Unity engine is C# cross-platform. What is the C++ / C# issue here? And yes, I'm mostly ignorant on mobile development, I've only briefly dabbled and that was looking at some Mono stuff, since I love C# ;)

Most platforms try and support C++ because its been the most common/popular programming language for a long long time now, this means theres a heck of a lot of legacy code kicking around for it.

For instance with Football Manager Handheld, its a small game comparatively to the PC version - but its still around 350,000 lines of code; as such porting it to a new language would be a prohibitive cost (as would supporting divergent language bases) ... this means I only seriously look at porting the game to platforms which support C++.

iOS was possible because Apple support C++ (ObjC is a derivative of it) and Android is Java based but supports C++ through the jni.

Microsoft with the latest Windows Mobile didn't support C++ at all which is frankly the reason why Football Manager Handheld (amongst other apps) has never apeared on it - I LOVE Microsofts development tools and it was the first mobile platform after iOS I looked at, but without C++ it simply wasn't feasible to support.

PS - C# is 'cool enough' as far as languages go (all languages have advantages and disadvantages), I don't mind it at all - I can dabble in most things; I know enough ObjC, C# and Java to stumble through most things ... but at heart I'm a C++ developer.

[Fidatelo]

Isn't the biggest thing that C++ compiles to native code whereas C# is managed code that runs on top of the .NET CLR, thereby incurring a performance hit?

[ISiddiqui]

Civ on a touchscreen would be super fun, I think :).

[Young Drachma]

You can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3 on Amazon.

I see a lot of iPads in meetings and have never seen a stylus once, despite some decent note taking apps out there...

This is a case of perceived need and use vs. actual use.

I always lose mine. So I get tired of buying them.

[Marc Vaughan]

Civ on a touchscreen would be super fun, I think :).

Think Civilisation Revolution - I believe they've already done iOS for it, so if the Surface makes a big enough splash then I expect it'll come across to that ....

[gstelmack]

Isn't the biggest thing that C++ compiles to native code whereas C# is managed code that runs on top of the .NET CLR, thereby incurring a performance hit?

C++ CAN, but there's also Managed C++, which compiles the same as .NET, and as noted the Android version of C++ does basically the same thing (compiles to the JNI).

I code in both C++ and C# on a regular basis, and yes writing in native code is great to squeeze every last drop of performance (major 3D rendering, for example, or complex physics environments), while C# is great when you want quick turnaround. C# is a great language for tools, for example, but it also works pretty well for most casual games that don't need every last drop of performance.

The fun part is a lot of the advantages of C++ go away in a high-performance game environment. "Don't use virtual functions", "Don't use if statements", etc, as the processors aren't as well set up as general PC processors for these features. I swear the guys designing the CPUs must hate software engineers deep down inside somewhere, so they want to take away some of our best tools and make us write in C again...

Marc's point about existing code is a key one, though: when that's what you've got, converting is difficult, expensive, and likely not worth it, unless the market is big enough to make it pay off.

[ISiddiqui]

Think Civilisation Revolution - I believe they've already done iOS for it, so if the Surface makes a big enough splash then I expect it'll come across to that ....

Why that small? It appears on the Surface Windows 8 Pro you can play Civ5.

[Subby]

Looks like a complete piece of shit. I predict it will be about as widely adopted as the Zune.

[RedKingGold]

Looks like a complete piece of shit. I predict it will be about as widely adopted as the Zune.

This.

[ISiddiqui]

Looks like a complete piece of shit.

I haven't heard this type of viewpoint... except from fanboys.

[Subby]

I hope I'm wrong, but that opinion is coming from a lifelong user of Microsoft products.

[RomaGoth]

Looks like a complete piece of shit. I predict it will be about as widely adopted as the Zune.

I hope I'm wrong, but that opinion is coming from a lifelong user of Microsoft products.

Out of curiosity, what reasoning is behind these comments?

[Subby]

Out of curiosity, what reasoning is behind these comments?
I'm just going on track record, which is terrible for mobile and devices.

Also, I have a hard time believing that Windows 8 won't be buggy and problematic. It's really different from the OS versions they have put out in the past. Remember the XP to Vista change? How do we know this won't be any different?

I am perfectly happy using Windows 7 on my desktop. That's where MS works, for the most part. I just don't see them being very good at tablets.

[Daimyo]

This will fail. Usually when a company aims for the best of both worlds they get neither. They've fragmented their market into two devices which will confuse consumers and scare away developers.

It sounds great that you get choice, but the low-end will likely be overpriced relative to the tablet market. That combined with the huge network effects operating in Apple and Android's favor dooms it to fail quickly (who's going to develop for it when the market is small, and who's going to buy it without compelling apps?).

The high-end will likely be overpriced relative to the ultra-book market and since it runs the same software as regular Windows machines it probably won't make business sense to develop software specifically for it's strengths. They'll likely get a lot of corps to do pilots, but it will likely be too expensive for any sort of widespread adoption and so it will fail more slowly.

[RomaGoth]

I'm just going on track record, which is terrible for mobile and devices.

Also, I have a hard time believing that Windows 8 won't be buggy and problematic. It's really different from the OS versions they have put out in the past. Remember the XP to Vista change? How do we know this won't be any different?

I am perfectly happy using Windows 7 on my desktop. That's where MS works, for the most part. I just see them being very good at tablets.

I hate Vista. :rant:

Been using a temporary laptop with Vista on it until I buy a new one later this year, and nothing runs on this stupid thing. FOF does not run, can't get most other games to even install correctly, never mind actually starting them up.

Never thought I would say this, but I actually miss Windows XP. I am hoping Windows 7 runs better for me, as I only use it on my work laptop right now and not for any games.

As for Windows 8, Microsoft has proven in the past that there new OS will always be buggy at first. I have just come to accept that from them. The Surface looks pretty slick outside of a potential new buggy OS and high pricing.

[Subby]

The problem is that for most part, ALL tablets look slick. They are thin and minimalist and just seem like the natural evolution of the laptop.

As so many tablets (and smartphones) have shown, once you get past the initial wow factor, useability is what matters. And I just don't have a good feeling that Microsoft all of a sudden got useability right for mobile.

[jeff061]

I only hold hope because, in my opinion, all existing tablets are garbage. Every single one... Android, iPad, whatever. So to me personally, there's plenty to improve on.

But I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

[ISiddiqui]

It's really different from the OS versions they have put out in the past. Remember the XP to Vista change? How do we know this won't be any different?

I am perfectly happy using Windows 7

These words in the order they are in make little sense.

[ISiddiqui]

And I just don't have a good feeling that Microsoft all of a sudden got useability right for mobile.

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

[Subby]

You seem angry. Don't make me come give you a non-sexual, brotastic foot massage. ;)

[Subby]

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.
They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

[dawgfan]

You can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3 on Amazon.

I see a lot of iPads in meetings and have never seen a stylus once, despite some decent note taking apps out there...

This is a case of perceived need and use vs. actual use.
I've seen multiple instances of people using styluses on iPads and iPhones. It's certainly a small minority, but it's not rare either. There is a segment of the population out there that want the precision and/or the form factor/familiarity of interfacing using a pen-like device.

Not to mention for artists such as myself, having the option to use a stylus instantly means that, if the Pro version can adequately run Photoshop (and other graphics programs), it would be productive to actually do so. After years of being able to work with Wacom products, there's no way I'd run any of those graphics programs without the ability to use a stylus.

[Marc Vaughan]

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

The problem with Windows Phone OS is that while its inherently usable and well designed ... but the app support isn't evolved enough for it to take market share away from Android and iOS in a meaningful manner (see my comments about it not supporting C++ and thus dissuading a lot of developers from making products for it).

As such it could well go the way of the Betamax vs VHS - it doesn't matter if your system is better, if its not supported people won't buy it ...

[ISiddiqui]

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

Its hard to break through when there is an established market share (Microsoft's competitors know it well - when IE was dominating browsers was it because their competitors had problems with their browsers?) and when you don't really get on the sexy phones. Though getting Windows Phone OS on Nokia 900 was a good step.

[Marc Vaughan]

I only hold hope because, in my opinion, all existing tablets are garbage. Every single one... Android, iPad, whatever. So to me personally, there's plenty to improve on.

But I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

I use both my iPad and my Kindle Fire a fair bit, both for different things - the iPad is great for games whereas the Kindle fire is more for reading and portability (its small enough to slot into a pocket easily).

[stevew]

You seem angry. Don't make me come give you a non-sexual, brotastic foot massage. ;)

Maybe he's the Zune tattoo guy?

[ISiddiqui]

The problem with Windows Phone OS is that while its inherently usable and well designed ... but the app support isn't evolved enough for it to take market share away from Android and iOS in a meaningful manner (see my comments about it not supporting C++ and thus dissuading a lot of developers from making products for it).

As such it could well go the way of the Betamax vs VHS - it doesn't matter if your system is better, if its not supported people won't buy it ...

But we are talking about Microsoft making a usable OS for the consumer. As you state, it's inherently usable. Therefore it should work for a tablet and also for Windows 8, which is using the Metro design.

[Marc Vaughan]

Why that small? It appears on the Surface Windows 8 Pro you can play Civ5.

Touch Screen input - simply put its incredibly lossy, so you have to design the UI to suit it (ie. larger buttons) which limits the information shown on the screen etc.

Plus tablets by their nature being held closer to someones eyes tend to be used for smaller periods of playing time than a computer with a monitor.

These two tend to combine with the fact tablets generally target more mainstream/casual users than PC's to mean that its likely they'll go with a slightly lightweight version of the game imho.

[Marc Vaughan]

But we are talking about Microsoft making a usable OS for the consumer. As you state, it's inherently usable. Therefore it should work for a tablet and also for Windows 8, which is using the Metro design.

Inherently usable counts for nothing if theres nothing to actually use it for - Betamax was a far beta technology than VHS, but without the films on it ultimately it failed ....

[ISiddiqui]

Inherently usable counts for nothing if theres nothing to actually use it for - Betamax was a far beta technology than VHS, but without the films on it ultimately it failed ....

I imagine that Windows 8 will be used on quite a bit of things ;).

[ISiddiqui]

Touch Screen input - simply put its incredibly lossy, so you have to design the UI to suit it (ie. larger buttons) which limits the information shown on the screen etc.

Plus tablets by their nature being held closer to someones eyes tend to be used for smaller periods of playing time than a computer with a monitor.

These two tend to combine with the fact tablets generally target more mainstream/casual users than PC's to mean that its likely they'll go with a slightly lightweight version of the game imho.

I don't understand what you are saying - you can load Civ 5 onto Windows 8 Surface Pro as soon as you get it (well with a USB CD drive). Yes, it likely won't be touch screen based without serious mod - but you'll be able to play Civ on your tablet - as long as you have the CD for it, or I guess you can download it from Steam.

[Marc Vaughan]

I imagine that Windows 8 will be used on quite a bit of things ;).

Yes it will - however ....

(1) Only one 'variant' of the Surface runs 'all Windows8 software' - the other will only run the Metro apps.
(2) time will tell if all software is going to be designed for touch input or whether most will remain designed for mouse input and control, thats the determining factor as to whether the tablet will have software if you view things through that manner.
A lot of Wii products failed because they were designed for a 'normal' controller and done as a cheap port - for an application to truly work on a platform it needs to be designed specifically for it imho.

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't understand what you are saying - you can load Civ 5 onto Windows 8 Surface Pro as soon as you get it (well with a USB CD drive). Yes, it likely won't be touch screen based without serious mod - but you'll be able to play Civ on your tablet - as long as you have the CD for it, or I guess you can download it from Steam.

Yes it'd be possible to play - but seriously would it be playable without the UI refit? ... as such its like people arguing you can play full FM PC on an iPad because you can setup a VNC connection to stream it from your PC to the iPad ... yes you can, but its inherently unusable because the PC game isn't designed for touch input an as such you spend a heck of a lot of time swearing at it rather than playing ;)

[ISiddiqui]

Yes it'd be possible to play - but seriously would it be playable without the UI refit? ... as such its like people arguing you can play full FM PC on an iPad because you can setup a VNC connection to stream it from your PC to the iPad ... yes you can, but its inherently unusable because the PC game isn't designed for touch input an as such you spend a heck of a lot of time swearing at it rather than playing ;)

Use the touchpad on the keyboard.

[Marc Vaughan]

Use the touchpad on the keyboard.

Thats true for Civ, but again its restricting the potential users to a 'hardcore' rather than really extending its user base at all (ie. the number of users who love Civ and know it well enough to want to play purely using keyboard input isn't as big as those who'd be happy playing with a mouse imho).

Please note I'm not 'writing off' the Surface at all - I think it could find traction if promoted correctly and supported by developers, I am however concerned that the existence of the two separate devices (with different software support) could be confusing for users ...

[ISiddiqui]

Yes it will - however ....

(1) Only one 'variant' of the Surface runs 'all Windows8 software' - the other will only run the Metro apps.
(2) time will tell if all software is going to be designed for touch input or whether most will remain designed for mouse input and control, thats the determining factor as to whether the tablet will have software if you view things through that manner.
A lot of Wii products failed because they were designed for a 'normal' controller and done as a cheap port - for an application to truly work on a platform it needs to be designed specifically for it imho.

I think that the Surface Pro will be the best seller. While RT will be "Surface Lite". And Metro is the default launcher on Win8. It's best used on tablet, but you will be able to use it with a mouse (kind of like Windows Media Center can be used with a mouse). I also assume that for a lot of programs your finger/stylus will equate to a mouse cursor in a lot of ways.

[RomaGoth]

But I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

this

[Daimyo]

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

These threads pop up every now and then and its clear a lot of people are still thinking about technology and consumer electronic products like they did 10-20 years ago in that all that matters are the features of the OS and specs/performance of the hardware. In terms of mainstream success that stuff doesn't really matter much any more (as long as its good enough to not detract from the experience). We're beyond selling technology for the sake of technology.

Its mostly about the eco-system now (but also still good, old-fashioned marketing -- a well positioned product, priced correctly, and promoted in a way that mainstream consumers understand). Microsoft's mobile products are way behind on the eco-system and they don't seem to know how to position them (as opposed to Amazon who was similarly behind Apple, but did both things really well).

[RomaGoth]

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

The problem with Windows Phone OS is that while its inherently usable and well designed ... but the app support isn't evolved enough for it to take market share away from Android and iOS in a meaningful manner (see my comments about it not supporting C++ and thus dissuading a lot of developers from making products for it).

As such it could well go the way of the Betamax vs VHS - it doesn't matter if your system is better, if its not supported people won't buy it ...

Its hard to break through when there is an established market share (Microsoft's competitors know it well - when IE was dominating browsers was it because their competitors had problems with their browsers?) and when you don't really get on the sexy phones. Though getting Windows Phone OS on Nokia 900 was a good step.

I have been using an Android for nearly 2 years now and love it, but would love to be able to snyc it with Outlook (not a big fan of Google calendar). Been wondering if going to a Windows phone is worth it or not. Any suggestions here? Is there a thread for Windows phones?

[dawgfan]

IBut I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.
I guess it depends on the hardware specs, but for me, the Pro version probably will be my next laptop. If it runs the full Win8 OS and all my typical Windows programs, why wouldn't I want the Surface Pro over a ultrabook? Why wouldn't I want a more flexible piece of hardware that gives me the option of both keyboard/touchpad/mouse input and touchscreen input?

So if the Pro is in the $700-800 range but has reasonably comparable hardware specs, I'd take it any day over an ultrabook.

[jeff061]

I guess it depends on the hardware specs, but for me, the Pro version probably will be my next laptop. If it runs the full Win8 OS and all my typical Windows programs, why wouldn't I want the Surface Pro over a ultrabook? Why wouldn't I want a more flexible piece of hardware that gives me the option of both keyboard/touchpad/mouse input and touchscreen input?

So if the Pro is in the $700-800 range but has reasonably comparable hardware specs, I'd take it any day over an ultrabook.


Well the pro version is an "ultrabook". Wasn't really commenting on that. I suspect it will be priced very similar to current ultrabooks out there.

I'm more concerned with the non-pro version being priced like a budget ultrabook.

[mckerney]

Yes it'd be possible to play - but seriously would it be playable without the UI refit? ... as such its like people arguing you can play full FM PC on an iPad because you can setup a VNC connection to stream it from your PC to the iPad ... yes you can, but its inherently unusable because the PC game isn't designed for touch input an as such you spend a heck of a lot of time swearing at it rather than playing ;)

There was an article on Rock, Paper, Shotgun about the Surface today and mentioned the hope that if this took off games that were suitable for play on a tablet could be released with options for both touch and standard mouse and keyboard input.

Given how many games have a console UI on PC and lack proper display options I'm not expecting it to be too common though.

[Young Drachma]

Microsoft Surface Just Made the MacBook Air and the iPad Look Obsolete (http://gizmodo.com/5919521/microsoft-surface-just-made-the-macbook-air-and-the-ipad-obsolete)

[dawgfan]

Well the pro version is an "ultrabook". Wasn't really commenting on that. I suspect it will be priced very similar to current ultrabooks out there.

I'm more concerned with the non-pro version being priced like a budget ultrabook.
Yeah, agreed. MS has better be aggressive with their pricing on the ARM version to eat into the iPad's huge market lead.

[dawgfan]

There was an article on Rock, Paper, Shotgun about the Surface today and mentioned the hope that if this took off games that were suitable for play on a tablet could be released with options for both touch and standard mouse and keyboard input.

Given how many games have a console UI on PC and lack proper display options I'm not expecting it to be too common though.
I'm going to be rather surprised if MS doesn't already have plans to integrate the Surface with their next game console in a variety of ways.

[mckerney]

I'm going to be rather surprised if MS doesn't already have plans to integrate the Surface with their next game console in a variety of ways.

With XBox Live integration in Metro and their Smart Glass demo a couple weeks ago that's pretty much a certainty.

[ISiddiqui]

If I can play Geometry Wars on a Surface, I'm happy!

[dawgfan]

I could envision a number of ways to interface - Surface as your gaming monitor, Surface as a touch-screen controller for your 720, Surface as a platform for adjunct game apps supporting your 720 games, etc.

Not to mention the ways it could help streamline the whole connected living room experience between your TV, game console, DVR and computing devices.

[mckerney]

I could envision a number of ways to interface - Surface as your gaming monitor, Surface as a touch-screen controller for your 720, Surface as a platform for adjunct game apps supporting your 720 games, etc.

Not to mention the ways it could help streamline the whole connected living room experience between your TV, game console, DVR and computing devices.

A lot of that is what they already have planned to be able to do with most tablets with Smart Glass (http://gizmodo.com/5915553/what-is-xbox-smartglass), there will probably be some extra functionality with a Surface though.

[mckerney]

If I can play Geometry Wars on a Surface, I'm happy!

I want to be able to play Steam Cloud games like SpaceChem or Toki Tori where I'd be able to automatically pick up my progress on a tablet and then continue the same game on PC later that evening.

[cartman]

A bit late to the discussion, but C++ and C# have almost nothing in common, other than the capital C. C# is a near clone of Java.

[stevew]

Was checking out the Windows8 phone news today and it looks pretty good. Although no current devices will be able to run the software, which kind of sucks.

[Fidatelo]

Was checking out the Windows8 phone news today and it looks pretty good. Although no current devices will be able to run the software, which kind of sucks.

Not upgrading any of the current devices was a terrible decision. I'm not shocked my Focus can't run WP8, but someone who purchased a Nokia Lumia 900 last week is going to be pretty pissed off to hear today that it's already a dead product. Pretty poor decision, and one that I just can't understand. It's going to cut the legs out of the momentum that I feel they finally just started gaining with the introduction of the various Lumia devices this spring.

Aside from that, WP8 does look great, and I will not hesitate to upgrade to it when my contract expires. I'm also pleased that the 7.8 update that my Focus will receive will get the new start menu, that thing looks very pretty.

[Desnudo]

I've seen multiple instances of people using styluses on iPads and iPhones. It's certainly a small minority, but it's not rare either. There is a segment of the population out there that want the precision and/or the form factor/familiarity of interfacing using a pen-like device.

Not to mention for artists such as myself, having the option to use a stylus instantly means that, if the Pro version can adequately run Photoshop (and other graphics programs), it would be productive to actually do so. After years of being able to work with Wacom products, there's no way I'd run any of those graphics programs without the ability to use a stylus.

then they can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3. I travel all the time and sit in a lot of meetings with numerous ipads present and I can say I have never seen anyone using a stylus on a plane or in a room. Not once. I'm sure there's a market out there, but it's probably about as big as the palm pilot's was.

Just saying it's unnecessary to include and classic MS feature creep dorky. I like the surface and think it'll drive competitive innovation.

[dawgfan]

then they can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3. I travel all the time and sit in a lot of meetings with numerous ipads present and I can say I have never seen anyone using a stylus on a plane or in a room. Not once. I'm sure there's a market out there, but it's probably about as big as the palm pilot's was.

Just saying it's unnecessary to include and classic MS feature creep dorky. I like the surface and think it'll drive competitive innovation.
I guess I don't understand the resistance to including it, unless you're convinced it will significantly drive up the cost. If you don't want to use it, don't.

[ISiddiqui]

Not upgrading any of the current devices was a terrible decision. I'm not shocked my Focus can't run WP8, but someone who purchased a Nokia Lumia 900 last week is going to be pretty pissed off to hear today that it's already a dead product. Pretty poor decision, and one that I just can't understand. It's going to cut the legs out of the momentum that I feel they finally just started gaining with the introduction of the various Lumia devices this spring.

Aside from that, WP8 does look great, and I will not hesitate to upgrade to it when my contract expires. I'm also pleased that the 7.8 update that my Focus will receive will get the new start menu, that thing looks very pretty.

It's the whole, its been made to be backwards compatible to phone OSs that go a good deal back, so a good time to start anew and integrate it all in to Win8 OS.

Sorry, But Microsoft Screwing Windows Phone Fans Is the Right Thing To Do (http://gizmodo.com/5919993/sorry-but-microsoft-screwing-windows-phone-owners-is-the-right-thing-to-do)

[Daimyo]

They did the same thing last generation and saw their market share drop from 15% to almost nothing as everyone stopped buying knowing there was no upgrade path. Same thing in prior versions too although at least back then they could blame the carriers.

Will current apps work on the new OS version this time at least?

[Mike Lowe]

Have they announced specs on this yet? I agree that I'd be sold if it actually ran what a desktop or laptop could run (Civ 5, FL Studio, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.). Until those types of programs can be handled, I don't see the point in owning a tablet as they don't offer a damn thing my pocket-sized cell phone doesn't already provide.

People are suckers for that iPad. Suckers. Period.

[mckerney]

Have they announced specs on this yet? I agree that I'd be sold if it actually ran what a desktop or laptop could run (Civ 5, FL Studio, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.). Until those types of programs can be handled, I don't see the point in owning a tablet as they don't offer a damn thing my pocket-sized cell phone doesn't already provide.

People are suckers for that iPad. Suckers. Period.

The pro will have an Ivy Bridge i5 in it, haven't seen anything about how much RAM though.

[RainMaker]

Regardless of how this all turns out, I'm happy anytime there is some competition and innovation in a tech space. Consumers end up the winners in the end as cheesy as that sounds.

[RainMaker]

Have they announced specs on this yet? I agree that I'd be sold if it actually ran what a desktop or laptop could run (Civ 5, FL Studio, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.). Until those types of programs can be handled, I don't see the point in owning a tablet as they don't offer a damn thing my pocket-sized cell phone doesn't already provide.

People are suckers for that iPad. Suckers. Period.

I thought the iPad was a dumb idea but I did change my mind when I got one. Phones are nice but small. It's sort of a perfect device for some minor web surfing and playing games.

[Desnudo]

I guess I don't understand the resistance to including it, unless you're convinced it will significantly drive up the cost. If you don't want to use it, don't.

I don't understand why you'd include it when everything is going to be about touch and voice commands in the future. It looks like an outdated feature from 1998. Everything costs. It's more an observation on design philosophy that still pervades msft than a personal preference. Like I doubt J Allard would have included one.

[Fidatelo]

Will current apps work on the new OS version this time at least?

Yes, WP7 apps will run on WP8 devices. Apps targeted to the new WP8 runtime will not run on WP7 devices, however.

[Logan]

I thought the iPad was a dumb idea but I did change my mind when I got one. Phones are nice but small. It's sort of a perfect device for some minor web surfing and playing games.

Which makes it a luxury device. It seems like Microsoft is trying to push this as a "best of both worlds" laptop/iPad combo.

[Subby]

Which makes it a luxury device. It seems like Microsoft is trying to push this as a "best of both worlds" laptop/iPad combo.
Last board meeting I went to had just about every CEO taking notes on his iPad, mostly via bluetooth keyboard. And this wasn't a bunch of artists or entertainment execs - I work for a trade association that serves a sector of the financial services industry.

My lobbyists almost exclusively bring their presentations on their ipads when they go to do speeches or education.

The point is, the potential business impact of the iPad is enormous but I think we are just beginning to scratch the surface of what is capable with it. It goes back to what Daimyo was talking about - an ecosystem. It's one thing to say that their is a huge developer base in place to make applications for the Surface, but if it only gets 3% penetration in the tablet market, is anyone going to make apps for it? The iPad has so much potential because tens of thousands of developers are making and fine tuning apps for it every day.

/ramble

[MacroGuru]

I am in the Unified Communications / AV Arena and I am starting to see a ton of request for mobile device communication within their organization. We even have a large financial institution asking us about incorporating AppleTV into their executive conference rooms.

We as a company have adopted the mobile technology and have been growing with it as far as uses and tech adds within the UC / AV arena and I believe it is going to change our business environment for the good.

[gstelmack]

They did the same thing last generation and saw their market share drop from 15% to almost nothing as everyone stopped buying knowing there was no upgrade path. Same thing in prior versions too although at least back then they could blame the carriers.

Will current apps work on the new OS version this time at least?

This is what I said earlier: Microsoft orphans their mobile OS regularly, with a lack of upgrades to older hardware, and a new OS not supporting recent releases. With any luck the new synching methods (over the Internet with standards, USB file sharing) will alleviate the OS side. However Android is doing similar things. My Droid X barely got Gingerbread (a point release), let alone ICS (the equivalent of WP7 -> WP8). Apple seems to be the only one handling this reasonably.

[Fidatelo]

This is what I said earlier: Microsoft orphans their mobile OS regularly, with a lack of upgrades to older hardware, and a new OS not supporting recent releases. With any luck the new synching methods (over the Internet with standards, USB file sharing) will alleviate the OS side. However Android is doing similar things. My Droid X barely got Gingerbread (a point release), let alone ICS (the equivalent of WP7 -> WP8). Apple seems to be the only one handling this reasonably.

Even Apple frustrated me with the news that iOS 6 would not be available for the original iPad. The thing is only 2 years old, why can't it handle iOS 6? They're putting it on the iPhone 3gs, which was released a year earlier.

I think all of these companies are flagrantly obsoleting their products at incredible rates, and it is really, really maddening.

[stevew]

Orphaning products that are contract based is especially bullshit. People who got a Lumina 900 are stuck with that thru the end of 2013. They'll basically have a dead platform phone for a year. And all the carrier shit that happens with Android makes me glad I don't have one.

[ISiddiqui]

I was actually just about to mention the original iPad not getting iOS6. FWIW, Apple does it all the time - however, what they do is allow you to get some aspects of the new OS, but not all of them (for example, Siri wasn't available to 3GS iPhones - at least not originally). So you really aren't getting the new OS. Its similar to Microsoft saying current Windows Phones will be getting Windows Phone 7.8 which will have the aspects of Windows Phone 8 that current phones can handle - its just like Apple's upgrade path, but more honest.

[Daimyo]

Except for one key point: the original iPad can still download use all the same apps as a new iPad even after iOS 6 is released. For a smart phone that's a much bigger deal than getting new OS features.

[Fidatelo]

Except for one key point: the original iPad can still download use all the same apps as a new iPad even after iOS 6 is released. For a smart phone that's a much bigger deal than getting new OS features.

Can it really use all the same apps? I would assume that apps will come out that require iOS6+, if for no other reason than to minimize testing.

[Marc Vaughan]

Except for one key point: the original iPad can still download use all the same apps as a new iPad even after iOS 6 is released. For a smart phone that's a much bigger deal than getting new OS features.

Thats hugely incorrect .... but is the perception normally of the public, basically clever marketting from Apple.

iOS apps are often restricted according to the OS revision which a device has, many of the later ones require iOS5 to run now and come iOS6 many will then exclude the original iPad (as that isn't supported by iOS6).

It is possible for developers to 'backward support' devices - I do it for Football Manager Handheld down to iOS3.0 .... but frankly its a right pain in the arse to do and increases the QA/testing for products hugely (instead of just testing on each device you then are testing on each device with iOS3.0, iOS3.1, iOS3.2 etc.).

[JediKooter]

It is possible for developers to 'backward support' devices - I do it for Football Manager Handheld down to iOS3.0 .... but frankly its a right pain in the arse to do and increases the QA/testing for products hugely (instead of just testing on each device you then are testing on each device with iOS3.0, iOS3.1, iOS3.2 etc.).

I know how you feel. It was the world I lived in when I worked at Apple. "Oh, you mean we have to support the 3 people left on the planet that still have a PowerPC Mac so they can run iMovie?". Man I was super happy when they finally dropped support for older hardware like that.

[Daimyo]

Thats hugely incorrect .... but is the perception normally of the public, basically clever marketting from Apple.

iOS apps are often restricted according to the OS revision which a device has, many of the later ones require iOS5 to run now and come iOS6 many will then exclude the original iPad (as that isn't supported by iOS6).

It is possible for developers to 'backward support' devices - I do it for Football Manager Handheld down to iOS3.0 .... but frankly its a right pain in the arse to do and increases the QA/testing for products hugely (instead of just testing on each device you then are testing on each device with iOS3.0, iOS3.1, iOS3.2 etc.).

Its not at all incorrect. Sure, app developers can choose to support what they want and so theoretically you can drop support for devices. Its a business decision for the developers -- given how many older devices are still in use and without the fragmentation of Windows and Android it just doesn't happen in practice. So, while they can theoretically drop support for the last generation, they absolutely never will outside of very rare circumstances (as you said you continue to go back three generations!).

When I say its all about the eco-system and network effects now, this is a small part of what I mean. This effect is exactly part of the package of benefits you get from buying into that. Personally, I never had an issue with any app I want to use with my original ipad or the 3GSs my family members inherited from me.

[Subby]

http://www.bgr.com/2012/06/21/microsoft-surface-tablet-shipments-projectio/

Count ABI Research as a Surface (http://www.bgr.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface-tablet-hands-on-preview-first-look/) skeptic. The research firm on Wednesday said that Windows-based tablets (http://www.bgr.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-tablet-event-live-blog-windows-8-xbox-2012/) will have “little impact” on the tablet market this year and will account for just 1.3% of tablet shipments in 2012. The most obvious reason for this is that Windows tablets aren’t expected to be commercially available until October, but ABI also questions whether Microsoft’s (http://www.bgr.com/tag/microsoft/) overall tablet strategy will be effective in peeling users away from their iPads.

“Is Microsoft suggesting that organizations will make the ‘post-PC era’ move toward a mobile computing device and ditch traditional desktop and clamshell form-factors, or is the company hoping that employees will gain access to multiple devices?” the firm writes. “So far, businesses have been opposed to buying incremental computing assets for users due to the support costs.”

ABI also says Microsoft could be hurt by releasing a fragmented tablet operating system since one version of Surface will run on Windows RT while another will run on Windows 8 Pro.

[ISiddiqui]

You are making it seem as that's only something that Apple has. All the Android users who had apps under Gingerbread can use them under Ice Cream Sandwich.

[dawgfan]

I don't understand why you'd include it when everything is going to be about touch and voice commands in the future. It looks like an outdated feature from 1998. Everything costs. It's more an observation on design philosophy that still pervades msft than a personal preference. Like I doubt J Allard would have included one.
"Everything"? Not quite...

I totally get that a stylus is a niche use device for tablets. But you'd be hard pressed to find any artist that would be willing to switch to a tablet for production unless they had a stylus.

Beyond that, the use is minimal. Most people will discard their stylus. But the notion that the idea of a stylus is dated thinking is completely false - there are applications that absolutely require the precision of a stylus. Voice can't draw for you and touch will always be less precise (and not precise enough for the vast majority of artist needs).

So again, unless including a stylus radically increases the price - and I see no reason it would - it's not "backwards thinking" nor is it a waste. It's basically a throw-in that most people will discard.

[Daimyo]

You are making it seem as that's only something that Apple has. All the Android users who had apps under Gingerbread can use them under Ice Cream Sandwich.
I'm pretty sure MS didn't allow app backwards compatibility when they moved to WP7 (I honestly wrote them off and stopped following their phone products completely the day they announced that -- other than to marvel at the 1% market share they lost EVERY month over the next year -- maybe they didn't follow through?). Marc claimed Apple didn't either... I have no quarrel with Android. :)

[stevew]

Surface with Windows RT - Microsoft Store Online (http://surface.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/Content/pbpage.Surface?ESICaching=off&WT.mc_id=FY13WinHH)

[stevew]

Those price points suck for the limited version of the tablet. At least they could have launched at 499 with the keyboard.

[cartman]

The initial stock of pre-sales units has already sold out.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm pretty sure MS didn't allow app backwards compatibility when they moved to WP7 (I honestly wrote them off and stopped following their phone products completely the day they announced that -- other than to marvel at the 1% market share they lost EVERY month over the next year -- maybe they didn't follow through?). Marc claimed Apple didn't either... I have no quarrel with Android. :)

I didn't claim they blocked backward compatibility - just that its something each developer has to decide upon whether they support etc.

Its also worth considering that with the advent of iOS6 Apple have specifically blocked off earlier devices/OS revisions - its now no longer possible for me to support an iPhone3g for instance if I wish to also support an iPhone5.

(again this is nothing new and is a natural evolution, its something all platform holders do - I'm just pointing out that this sort of thing isn't unusual at all ... incidentally I do concur that Microsoft not doing back-compatibility with WP7 was bloody stupid ;) )

[MacroGuru]

The office bought the 64GB version and I will be playing with that. When the pro comes out they will buy that one...but I will be buying a pro for myself when they launch it.

We are a straight Microsoft shop, but use Android and iPads currently for some of the software one of our vendors have developed.

[Marc Vaughan]

The initial stock of pre-sales units has already sold out.

Not being cynical but this rarely means anything - most electronics devices are 'planned' to sell out to make them appear popular imho ....

[Fidatelo]

Those price points suck for the limited version of the tablet. At least they could have launched at 499 with the keyboard.

+1. I would have liked to see a $399 model (with keyboard cover), even if it meant 16GB or what have you. I'm a WP7 fan and love the 'metro' style, but I don't see how they compete with the iPad at those price points. I've personally moved from "probably going to get one" to "not likely to get one".

[Daimyo]

The initial stock of pre-sales units has already sold out.

Did they sell them to their distributors/retail partners or did they actually sell them through to customers?

A lot of these iPad killers announce something like 1,000,000 in sales! Only to then write off 800,000 later as being sold to retail stores and taken back when they're not sold through to customers...

[mckerney]

Way to much for me to consider picking up an RT version, though I don't have a whole lot of interest in something that's going to be locked into the Windows Metro (or whatever they're calling it now) store.

[stevew]

Nobody bought one yet?

[booradley]

Nobody bought one yet?

This. How do I know if I want one unless some of you people Guinea Pig it for me?

[Comey]

I'm waiting for the Pro, or another similar one. A tablet I can run sim games on? Yes please.

[QuikSand]

According to the tee-vee, the main reason I need to get this is so I can sit at a picnic table full of suitably diverse people from Seattle and exchange the little snap-on keyboards to the beat of snappy instrumental score.

So, I'm on the fence.

[Desnudo]

I think you have your answer

[jeff061]

If having a dozen people dress you in a suit made of Surfaces doesn't get you off the fence, I don't know what will.

[stevew]

Surface Pro is 900/1000 for the 64/128

DOA

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57556219-292/surface-pro-price-tag-$899/

[Marc Vaughan]

I REALLY don't get what Microsoft are trying to do tbh - they've effectively priced the Surface out of any potential market-place it had ... heck I can get a very decent specced laptop for far under that price or two iPads .... confused ...

[MacroGuru]

Damn that is pricey...well, guess the Surface Pro isn't how I go...I will see what my boss has to say tomorrow about the Pro's price tag.

Might have to go with the thinkpad 2..

[jeff061]

I was using one of their RT versions at the mall. Didn't realize it came with a full blown Windows Desktop. It's basically a laptop interface with touchpad/cursor and keyboard when you hide the metro display. Didn't think you could do that with the RT.

Actually liked that quite a bit, could legitimately use it for Word, Excel, etc. I had the perception the office suite would be a useless bastardization.

As for SurfacePro. It's priced in line with a decent laptop, isn't it? Maybe my perception of laptop costs are inaccurate.

[jeff061]

It's also possible the Pro version only exists for marketing and they only really care about RT.

[JediKooter]

All I know is, if I see that damn Surface commercial where they are dancing while they are clicking the keyboard onto the Surface, one more time, I'm going to start punching kittens.

[Eaglesfan27]

Surface Pro is 900/1000 for the 64/128

DOA

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57556219-292/surface-pro-price-tag-$899/

:eek:

I was strongly considering one, but that price tag is WAY too much.

[ISiddiqui]

Too much?

People were saying if it was under $1000 it was a great deal. I mean its a full features Win8 tablet/laptop replacement.

I mean how much do people think full featured ultrabooks like MacBook Air and Samsung Series 9 go for? Add a touchscreen on top of that.

[stevew]

It's 2x the price of an IPad and is only 10.6". That seems crazy to pay full laptop prices for such a small screen. at a grand you can throw in a few hundred more and get almost anything.

[ISiddiqui]

The 11 inch MacBook Air is $1000 and has 64 GB of HDD storage. And no touchscreen.

That's what Surface RT is competing against. High end ultrabooks.

[jeff061]

Yeah, not sure why people were expecting tablet prices. It's not a tablet at least not in the ipad mold.

[Scoobz0202]

I don't think the price is that ridiculous. It will be more once you add in the smart case.

My only pause would be this. It is trying to be both a tablet and a laptop. How good is it at each on its own? As a tablet, is it as good as an iPad or a Nexus 10. How is it to hold for an extended time (It weighs a half pound more than an iPad I believe). How is it's battery life? Is it closer to 4-5 hours that a laptop gets or can it compete with a the leaders of the tablet market in that regard? Does it get warm?

As a laptop, how does that processor perform compared to the laptop varieties? How is the screen and viewing angle with that case?

Essentially, I doubt it will be able to compete with the leading tablets as a tablet and similarly priced laptops as just a laptop replacement, but does it do both of those good enough to be able to replace both of those items is the question.

You're looking at what, $1050 all said and done? Maybe closer to $1100. Will it be better than say, a Nexus 10 and a $700 laptop (A Lenovo can be had for that.) If you are an apple guy, you're looking at close to double the Windows but you're trying to get the Apple fanbase which will be tough anyways.

[Desnudo]

They're pricing like a market leader when they're not. That price does not include the keyboard either. Clearly targeting IT departments. Probably some stupidity related to oem competition as well.

[Marc Vaughan]

Yeah, not sure why people were expecting tablet prices. It's not a tablet at least not in the ipad mold.

I don't think its priced sensibly - its basically a 'laptop replacement' but priced at the far high end of that range without any persuasive reasoning for it being worthwhile at that price.

Add to that lossy input (which all tablets have) and to me its a less productive item being sold as an 'mobile' office productivity tool.

The iPad 'gets away' with its lossy input etc. because its sold either to companies using it for specialized tasks using custom applications (ie. stock input etc.) or casual users who don't require accurate input.

If I'm writing code or a design document I want to be able to type fast and accurately and also use a mouse for drawing rather than prodding a screen which is 'propped' up - bah humbug.

(and if it can support a mouse then basically you're paying extra to expand it into a laptop which is cumbersome to setup on the move ... so what exactly is the point? ... Acer did this with Android/Linux ages ago and found the uptake limited, so they discontinued that approach)

I hope I'm wrong as I think a third alternative to Android/iPad would be healthy for competition and the market in general - but I'm not convinced by what I've seen so far tbh.

[jeff061]

I don't think you understand what the pro version is.

Or maybe I don't. It's a straight up full blown laptop. Get a mouse, use a touchpad, it runs the same OS your desktop does. It's not competing with iOS or Android any more than a Dell laptop is.

Hell, like I said earlier, even the RT version(the actual iPad alternative) supports cursor input as a replacement for touchscreen if you desire.

[stevew]

I feel like the smart keyboard would be like typing on a blue maxi pad.

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't think you understand what the pro version is.
Or maybe I don't. It's a straight up full blown laptop. Get a mouse, use a touchpad, it runs the same OS your desktop does. It's not competing with iOS or Android any more than a Dell laptop is.

My current instincts is that if people really wanted a tablet which you could bolt things onto to turn into a laptop then one of the 'alternative' touchscreen laptops with a detachable screen would have 'gone big' in recent years - a few have come and gone without even so much as a splash.

For example:
Laptop Blog: New tablet pc/netbook with a detachable screen (http://rentourlaptops.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-tablet-pcnetbook-with-detachable.html) (from 2009!)
HP Launches New Hybrid Tablet, Laptops, Desktops Ahead of Windows 8 - Desktops and Notebooks - News & Reviews - eWeek.com (http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-and-Notebooks/HP-Launches-New-Hybrid-Tablet-Laptops-Desktops-Ahead-of-Windows-8-342699/)

Hell, like I said earlier, even the RT version(the actual iPad alternative) supports cursor input as a replacement for touchscreen if you desire.
So did the Android/Linux systems which were released 18 months or more ago - they had similar issues with setup/cumbersome nature and have been discontinued (and those were FAR cheaper than the Surface is being pitched at).

As I said - I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to see Win8 mobile/tablet gain traction and become a viable alternative to Android/iOS ... not least because I really like the style of Metro and think it could provide some interesting innovation.

PS - I bought a keyboard cover for my iPad when I got it, I found it bloody awful to use so haven't bothered more than once or twice, I sincerely hope surface isn't .... if its done well (and it'll have to be bloody well done) then perhaps it might validate the high price, I just feel its being priced as 'Premium' without having the kudo's at present to pull it off.

[jeff061]

Well it will work with any Bluetooth keyboard, you don't have to get a "cover" version.

I typed with the cheap blue cloth keyboard thing, that was horrible, didn't feel much better than typing on cardboard with drawn on keys. Plastic one is much better, though I think for work I'd prefer a more standard size keyboard.

[ISiddiqui]

My current instincts is that if people really wanted a tablet which you could bolt things onto to turn into a laptop then one of the 'alternative' touchscreen laptops with a detachable screen would have 'gone big' in recent years - a few have come and gone without even so much as a splash.

It's a new day. Touchscreen has been gaining more and more, even since the original iPad came out. Windows 8 is optimized for touchscreens. A lot of touchscreen laptops are about to come out to take advantage of Windows 8 capabilities there. I'm pretty sure Apple is going to soon combine the MacBook Air with the iPad to create a touchscreen laptop there as well. Microsoft is just coming to the market first(ish) with it.

[Glengoyne]

I'm an IOS junkie, but I'm rooting for the surface. I also think that a tablet format PC in 2009 cant be compared to today. That was pre iPad. The iPad changed everything. I don't really think there even was a tablet market in 2009. Now there are two in my house.

[Jughead Spock]

It's not an iPad competitor, it's an ultrabook competitor. I think it's right in the ballpark for anything with an i5 and a full-blown OS. If you're not looking for either, it's obviously not the solution.

I've been looking at the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga as my next PC purchase, but this gives me pause. Will wait and see some reviews, and hopefully get some hands-on.

It's so weird rooting for Microsoft as the underdog, but I'm kinda hoping this takes hold. Maybe if they'd get rid of Ballmer, I'd be more behind them. :D

[Desnudo]

I'm rooting for msft too - unfortunately it looks like they're trodding the same road and making the same mistakes they have in the past; I mean who doesn't include the keyboard as base on the Pro? The only successful new product they launched into an existing market they soaked up hardware losses for years.

If they're relying on IT purchasing then they are attaching themselves to a dinosaur model that will be dead in a few years.

[ISiddiqui]

It should be great for full featured games (which can't run on iOS or Android). Civ5's new touchscreen capabilities was just announed. You can only do that on the Surface Pro or other touchscreen laptops. iPads, Nexus's, etc. don't really have the horsepower to run it.

[Scoobz0202]

I'm rooting for msft too - unfortunately it looks like they're trodding the same road and making the same mistakes they have in the past; I mean who doesn't include the keyboard as base on the Pro? The only successful new product they launched into an existing market they soaked up hardware losses for years.


I know Asus didn't for their transformer, but that is a tablet and a tablet only. You would kind of expect, or hope I guess, that it would be included in something that is a laptop replacement.

[jeff061]

Got a Surface RT from girlfriend for Christmas. I have to say I'm extremely impressed. I have zero interest in an iPad. While I've enjoyed my Android based phone, the Android tablet experience has been extremely poor when I've used them(slow, not refined, just a sloppy feel). I didn't share either of those thoughts with her(or asked that she bought a tablet, too much $$$), but she still got me the Surface.

Surface in my opinion is damn near perfectly designed, it's extremely tight and quick like the iPad with the openness of Android. Of course the killer issue is definitely there...lack of apps. That scene is strikingly dismal even when you are expecting it, get ready to pay for decent third party apps for Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc. or using free lackluster alternatives. Hoping that picks up and this great little device has some staying power.

I'm also able to use my Live enabled gmail account for the store, cloud sync, sky drive and everything else. Creation of MS email account not needed. I was concerned about that, but it just uses the same account I have setup for XBox.

[jeff061]

Oh, one note, the cheap keyboard cover without any tactile feedback is garbage. It's like typing on cardboard with a keyboard drawn on it in marker. Buy a cheap cover and an actual portable Bluetooth keyboard instead(Logitech makes a nice one) if you really want an alternative to the on screen KB.

[MacroGuru]

I'm also able to use my Live enabled MS account for the store, cloud sync, sky drive and everything else. Creation of MS email account not needed. I was concerned about that, but it just uses the same account I have setup for XBox.

XBOX Smart Glass App, check it out...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NBGkSuaqWEE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Subby]

I googled holiday sales and it looks like Apple crushed MSFT in the tablet wars, but I am not seeing any hard sales data. Curious if the Surface has really gained any traction in the tablet market - or is it just another Windows Phone.

[Fidatelo]

What makes the Surface have "the openness of Android"? Win8RT is just as closed off as an iPad from what I have seen.

[jeff061]

It's pretty damn easy to get under the hood or boot to other media to load your own OS. There's a lot of advanced options in the stock load. No rooting or cracking needed.

You can't do dick with iOS.

[jeff061]

I googled holiday sales and it looks like Apple crushed MSFT in the tablet wars, but I am not seeing any hard sales data. Curious if the Surface has really gained any traction in the tablet market - or is it just another Windows Phone.

When she bought my tablet she talked to the MS sales reps, they said they had sold very few. I'm expecting a blip at best against both Android and Apple.

[Fidatelo]

It's pretty damn easy to get under the hood or boot to other media to load your own OS. There's a lot of advanced options in the stock load. No rooting or cracking needed.

You can't do dick with iOS.

I'm not sure I understand what the advanced options are. It's not like you can just download software willy-nilly as you could on a full Windows machine. There is the Store and that's about it. Do you just mean that you can mess around with live tiles and stuff in terms of customizations?

[jeff061]

I mean like you can drop to a command line(which I did to troubleshoot some network issues), create database connections, modify shares at the file leve, run perfomance monitoring, run powershell scripts. With all that, I'm not worried about the ability to install out of store apps being figured out.

And my main problem with Apple isn't so much forcing you to install apps from the store, it's the legit apps they squelch or delay from being published.

[dawgfan]

Oh, one note, the cheap keyboard cover without any tactile feedback is garbage. It's like typing on cardboard with a keyboard drawn on it in marker. Buy a cheap cover and an actual portable Bluetooth keyboard instead(Logitech makes a nice one) if you really want an alternative to the on screen KB.
Yeah, the "touch" keyboard is no bueno. Go for the "type" keyboard cover instead. It's thicker and heavier, but still attaches very nicely and has much better feel for typing. I've played around with both at an MS Store, and it's no-contest.

I wish the Surface Pro was more competitively priced, but either way, my wife is going to put the kibosh on getting on getting one until I can put forward a convincing argument that it's time to replace our current Win7 high-end laptop I got 3 years ago. Which probably means another year or two before I can shop for a Surface.

[Fidatelo]

I mean like you can drop to a command line(which I did to troubleshoot some network issues), create database connections, modify shares at the file leve, run perfomance monitoring, run powershell scripts. With all that, I'm not worried about the ability to install out of store apps being figured out.

And my main problem with Apple isn't so much forcing you to install apps from the store, it's the legit apps they squelch or delay from being published.

Ok cool, thanks for the info.

[DaddyTorgo]

If I could play full-featured FM13 on a surface I might legitimately use it to replace my laptop...

edit: quick google and I guess it will actually run on a Surface Pro. People have done it, or have done it on similar hardware and are going to do it on a Pro shortly...

FML

[jeff061]

Well, Pro is a full blown Windows Laptop. So performance aside, it will run anything a Windows 8 desktop does.

Just costs a lot more and there are a good amount of alternatives as well that may or may not be better for you.

[MacroGuru]

When she bought my tablet she talked to the MS sales reps, they said they had sold very few. I'm expecting a blip at best against both Android and Apple.

That is because it was from the MS Stores or online from MS only...they will catch traction this year as they roll it out to the box stores.

[jeff061]

I believe they are in it for the long haul, so I don't expect the shitty sales numbers from 2012 to kill it.

I just hope they don't do to Win 8 what they did to Win 7 mobile. Can't imagine they will.

[gstelmack]

I just hope they don't do to Win 8 what they did to Win 7 mobile. Can't imagine they will.

I'll probably have one soon. I gave Android a try, but I'm not all that lit up about it. Before I get sucked into iOS, I want to give the Win8 mobile stuff and see how it goes. My biggest fear, though, is that my Dell Axim v5 got obsoleted simply because Microsoft stopped allowing synchs from that version of WinCE when they released Vista, and Microsoft will do something similar here.

Microsoft could have owned the mobile space a decade ago, but they let it slip away.

[Scoobz0202]

This is... weird

Microsoft's 64GB Surface Pro will only have 23GB usable storage | The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/29/3929110/surface-pro-disk-space-windows-8)


Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet, due on February 9th, will have a smaller amount of storage space than expected. A company spokesperson has confirmed to The Verge that the 64GB edition of Surface Pro will have 23GB of free storage out of the box. The 128GB model will have 83GB of free storage. It appears that the Windows 8 install, built-in apps, and a recovery partition will make up the 41GB total on the base Surface Pro model.

Microsoft says users will be able to free up additional storage space by "creating a backup bootable USB and deleting the recovery partition," but out of the box they'll be left with as little as 36 percent of the advertised storage available. The storage situation is similar to Microsoft's Surface RT tablet. The Windows RT operating system, that powers Surface RT, accounts for half of the 32GB disk space on the entry model. Microsoft's Surface Pro supports USB 3.0 hard drives and microSDXC cards, meaning there are ways to extend the storage.


Emphasis mine

[Marc Vaughan]

Basically part of Microsofts master plan to ensure that no one understands or adopts the surface which is an impressive piece of technology crippled by its myriad of confusing configurations and awful promotion ...

I mean ffs if you've a 64Gb model then give the user 64Gb of storage space thats what they expect, otherwise call it a 40Gb model surely?

[dawgfan]

It's facepalm-ingly stupid the way that Microsoft has executed on this - the not providing the actual amount of storage as promoted, over-pricing them, doing a poor job getting them into big-box retailers.

I'm losing confidence every day that Microsoft is going to be able to sustain their current dominance - at this rate, they'll be lucky to reinvent themselves as well as IBM did when Microsoft toppled them.

[stevew]

That's embarrassing how little storage that they put in the device. Would seem like they could have put an extra 32 gig memory chip in the thing as the profit margin on it is likely to be high(they make roughly 50% profit on a 32 gig surface).

I'm guessing it will be pretty much DOA.

[Jughead Spock]

Why is the space such a big deal? NO system, laptop or tablet, comes with the entire space available. And even on a bare drive, the actual formatted capacity doesn't measure up to the marketing number.

I do agree that MS has handled some stuff (ok, a lot) wrong, but geez. This is a non-issue.

What'll really kill it is the 11" Yoga with full Windows 8 in June...

[Fidatelo]

Why is the space such a big deal? NO system, laptop or tablet, comes with the entire space available. And even on a bare drive, the actual formatted capacity doesn't measure up to the marketing number.

I do agree that MS has handled some stuff (ok, a lot) wrong, but geez. This is a non-issue.

What'll really kill it is the 11" Yoga with full Windows 8 in June...

I think it's a big deal because of the sheer magnitude of pre-used space. If I buy a 64GB iPad I wouldn't be shocked if you told me that iOS took up 4-6GB of space. But when you start telling me that the OS is taking up 50+%? That's pretty crazy. And I'm an MS fan (own a WP7, heavily considering a Surface RT).

[Jughead Spock]

That, I agree with. It's awkward for MS to put ultrabook specs in a tablet, and space is probably the first issue. They're in a bit of a no-win though; if they started the Pros with 128Gb HDs, probably jack the price up another $100-200 and people are already unhappy about the pricing.

I can't believe 50% margin on these... I'm thinking more like a loss leader, like when the XBox & 360 both came out. Crack the market, get 'em hooked on the infrastructure, get paid from subscriptions.

[Jughead Spock]

dola... I stand corrected, reports are that they are making 50% on Surface RTs, so probably still 30ish percent on pros. Definitely (another) mistake by MS.

[Marc Vaughan]

dola... I stand corrected, reports are that they are making 50% on Surface RTs, so probably still 30ish percent on pros. Definitely (another) mistake by MS.

Yeah this I just don't get - they're coming into this market as a massive underdog, as such you'd have expected them to be ramming in full-speed as a loss leader to gain market share and receive revenue through:

* Cheaper components/production costs as sales rise.
* Revenue through application sales on the device store

Personally I don't 'get' where Microsoft are headed these days - nor do I think Microsoft ...

[jeff061]

50% doesn't include R&D and marketing. I hate those tear down pricing estimates.

[jeff061]

Hell an electronically delivered $60 game is 100% margin right?

[stevew]

50% doesn't include R&D and marketing. I hate those tear down pricing estimates.

I sure hope they didn't spend much developing one of the worst marketing campaigns ever.

[Jughead Spock]

50% doesn't include R&D and marketing. I hate those tear down pricing estimates.

Yes, but it can still be viewed as high relative to the market.

http://www.computerworld.com/common/images/site/features/2012/11/surface_margins.jpg

For someone trying to crack into an almost iron-clad market, not a good idea.

[dawgfan]

Yeah this I just don't get - they're coming into this market as a massive underdog, as such you'd have expected them to be ramming in full-speed as a loss leader to gain market share and receive revenue through:

* Cheaper components/production costs as sales rise.
* Revenue through application sales on the device store

Personally I don't 'get' where Microsoft are headed these days - nor do I think Microsoft ...
This. 1,000 times this.

[Fidatelo]

They can't go lower because their OEM's will abandon them.

[jeff061]

Anyways, I still think the Surface RT is a fantastic product, hands down better than both iPad and Android(app availability aside, yes I know that's a deal breaker to some).

However I used to think people comparing the RT to a laptop rather than an iPad were idiots. But I've just seen too much confusion around that, from technically inclined people straight to the technically illiterate, clearly MS dropped the ball educating the public on what exactly the RT is.

[dawgfan]

They can't go lower because their OEM's will abandon them.
If I'm MS, I call that bluff. You want to leave us for Google? Fine. We'll make our own hardware. That's where things are headed anyway IMO...

[Desnudo]

Basically part of Microsofts master plan to ensure that no one understands or adopts the surface which is an impressive piece of technology crippled by its myriad of confusing configurations and awful promotion ...

I mean ffs if you've a 64Gb model then give the user 64Gb of storage space thats what they expect, otherwise call it a 40Gb model surely?

It would actually be the 23GB model according to that story.

Sent from my 28GB (out of 32) iPad.

[Fidatelo]

If I'm MS, I call that bluff. You want to leave us for Google? Fine. We'll make our own hardware. That's where things are headed anyway IMO...

That may be true, but I don't think MS is in a position to scale up to the necessary levels any time soon. It doesn't take much for someone like Samsung to just slap a different OS on their hardware; it takes herculean efforts to build up an entire manufacturing and supply business on the global scale MS would need to retain any semblance of market share. I suspect they would take a massive hit for at least a year or two while they tried to get up to speed.

That said, as someone who is *this* close to buying an RT, any kind of discount would be a welcome push towards the product. In my opinion they could generate a ton of sales if they just included the touch cover at the price of the base unit.

[Arles]

Here's CNET's take on the surface Pro:

Microsoft Surface with Windows 8 Pro Review - Watch CNET's Video Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/microsoft-surface-pro/)

[Mike Lowe]

I think I'm taking the plunge on the 64 GB. Aside from work etc., this may be my OOTP playing machine.

I'm thinking 64 is fine since I have my music etc Clouded.

I do use Adobe Creative Suite...hmmm is 64 going to crush me?

Quick help! Haha at Best Buy now.

[stevew]

There's no way I would go with 64 when 128 is only $100 more, especially if this is basically going to be your default laptop.

[Desnudo]

I have a 128gb Mac book and ran out of space after 9 mths. So yeah, definitely get as much space as possible.

[Arles]

Yeah, given the fractional cost to double your memory, I can't see a reason to buy the 64.

[stevew]

So the Pro should be on display at BB now? I guess what I want is a RT price/spec'd machine that runs full windows 8. I wish this was possible from Microsoft. I'd probably prefer that to an iPad cause I could use the office I've paid for and play ootp on it.

[Mike Lowe]

Yes Pro Windows 8 is what I got from Best Buy.

Also, the $100 I saved getting the 64, I can use that if I want to get me an additional 100 GB for two years on Skydrive, however right now I'm good using the free 7 GB on Skydive and the free 5 GB on Google Drive.

The idea for me is shifting away from hard drive dependency, which eventually will include software too.

Hard drive sizes seem to be on a bell curve pattern--it was an easy decision to go with 64.

[Fidatelo]

So the Pro should be on display at BB now? I guess what I want is a RT price/spec'd machine that runs full windows 8. I wish this was possible from Microsoft. I'd probably prefer that to an iPad cause I could use the office I've paid for and play ootp on it.

I think the only thing holding me back from an RT right now is my concern that this is where the market will be by this time next year. The current Intel Atom chips that some of the OEM's are using for Windows 8 pro tablets are very underwhelming, but I wouldn't be shocked if a Surface based on some newer Intel low-power architecture gets announced some time in the next 6-10 months. And then I worry that I'd feel kind of burnt with an RT, even though realistically I think it would be fine for my needs.

I wish I could see into the future :)

[Dutch]

I am STRONGLY leaning towards the Surface Pro as my next Laptop/Tablet.

[Passacaglia]

So I'm thinking of getting a tablet -- got an ipad for my brithday and was told that it could be any tablet or laptop. From the little bit of research I've done, it seems like:

Surface Pro -- if I want to play Civ/FM/FOF on it, but it costs more. Does anyone know how these run on it?
Ipad -- if I want more apps
Google Nexus -- if I want to use the same apps that are already on my android phone.

Is that pretty much the gist?

[Mike Lowe]

Surface Pro has Windows 8 and will run all of those programs fine. I'd install Civ via Steam to save on HD space.

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

[jeff061]

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

As long as you are ok with always needing an internet connection to access those cloud offerings.


Out of those 3, only the Surface Pro is a laptop replacement(unless you are only doing web and light email). But you need to pay a premium for that functionality.

[Jughead Spock]

Surface Pro has Windows 8 and will run all of those programs fine. I'd install Civ via Steam to save on HD space.

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

?? how would installing it from Steam save on HD? Save your games to the cloud, yes, but still is going to take ~6Gb. Civ will run on it, but the dedicated video will probably make you have to knock it down a few notches on the graphics. Not a bad compromise.

I still do hope the Surface gets some traction, despite MS' best efforts to screw it up.

[Passacaglia]

As long as you are ok with always needing an internet connection to access those cloud offerings.


Out of those 3, only the Surface Pro is a laptop replacement(unless you are only doing web and light email). But you need to pay a premium for that functionality.

This may be a stupid question, but what exactly do you mean by 'laptop replacement'?

[jeff061]

Something that you don't need to buy in addition to a laptop. Requirements for that definition vary person to person. If I had a Pro, I don't need a laptop. If I have an iPad or Android variant, I still would.

Really though, the pro doesn't replace a laptop, it is a laptop. Just a slightly different form factor.

[BigPapi]

Surface Pro has Windows 8 and will run all of those programs fine. I'd install Civ via Steam to save on HD space.

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).


Wow....Good luck running an OOTP career with 20-30 gb of HD space. Have you ever taken a look at the footprint of an OOTP career file 10-15 years in?....I suppose you could turn all that stuff off, but then- it's really not the same game anymore.

[Desnudo]

So I'm thinking of getting a tablet -- got an ipad for my brithday and was told that it could be any tablet or laptop. From the little bit of research I've done, it seems like:

Surface Pro -- if I want to play Civ/FM/FOF on it, but it costs more. Does anyone know how these run on it?
Ipad -- if I want more apps
Google Nexus -- if I want to use the same apps that are already on my android phone.

Is that pretty much the gist?

Something else you may want to think about is staying in the same apps ecosystem. So if you already have an android device, buying a nexus would allow you more seamlessly switch between devices and what you've bought. Fr example, starting a show on your phone then switching to your tablet. Or buying a show on your phone and streaming to your tv.

Also a little easier to sync cloud storage, although google drive has a web app that means you can use it on any device.

One thing that's really nice about the ipad is the ability to AirPrint from the tablet as well as stream whatever you are viewing on the tablet to your tv if you are willing to buy the Apple TV as well.

I think the surface pro is a laptop with a removable keyboard and has a different set of use cases. So if you wanted laptop power and windows with a different design, that would be the way to go.

[stevew]

Looked at a surface in person today. Really slick design. The upgraded keyboard looks so wprth it. I don't think I can go 1120 for a pro though. Seems way too much. They had a Samsung atom tablet, going to look into it. Reviews seem mixed.

[bigdawg2003]

Played around with a Surface Pro while in Vegas and was very impressed, but not sure what I need it for. May still ask for one for birthday or Christmas.

[jeff061]

I tend to agree at some point in the not too distance future the Pro will have the same form factor as the RT with similar battery life. I'll be more interested then.

[Jughead Spock]

Echoing the previous few posts here; just got my hands on one yesterday and it is a really compelling piece of hardware. I wouldn't feel bad about committing to one if I was in the market.

[stevew]

Admittedly I've been fucked by HP laptops before, but I went ahead and ordered the Envy x2 windows hybrid tablet and will post after I snag it. The memory is expandable from 64gb via a microSD card. With tax and whatnot it ended up being 563 bucks. I was just going to buy an IPad mini, but I figure this will do many of the same things and will(probably painfully) play FOF and/or OOTP. It has a 21 day return policy if it runs like trash, I can't imagine you can play things like Civ on it though.

http://slickdeals.net/f/5873716-HP-Envy-X2-11t-g000-532-Before-Tax-With-Coupon?page=2

[Passacaglia]

Something else you may want to think about is staying in the same apps ecosystem. So if you already have an android device, buying a nexus would allow you more seamlessly switch between devices and what you've bought. Fr example, starting a show on your phone then switching to your tablet. Or buying a show on your phone and streaming to your tv.

Also a little easier to sync cloud storage, although google drive has a web app that means you can use it on any device.

One thing that's really nice about the ipad is the ability to AirPrint from the tablet as well as stream whatever you are viewing on the tablet to your tv if you are willing to buy the Apple TV as well.

I think the surface pro is a laptop with a removable keyboard and has a different set of use cases. So if you wanted laptop power and windows with a different design, that would be the way to go.

That's what I was getting at in my post -- comparing the sameness of having a matching set, vs. having one of each, so if an app is in just one, I can do it.

[Desnudo]

Another cool feature, at least on the Mac stuff is that you can get text messages across your phone, tablet, and PCs. It's nice to be able to reply to a text w/o picking up the phone. Don't know if android has something similar.

[jeff061]

Does that only work between when texting between Apple products? I believe the iPhone uses it's own protocol for text messaging(not the carriers, which pisses the carrier off), so can do whatever it wants with the messages. But if you txt between apple and android/windows that functionality is loss as it has to drop to the carrier txt capability.

No experience, just what I read.

[stevew]

Google voice would work like that.

[Desnudo]

Does that only work between when texting between Apple products? I believe the iPhone uses it's own protocol for text messaging(not the carriers, which pisses the carrier off), so can do whatever it wants with the messages. But if you txt between apple and android/windows that functionality is loss as it has to drop to the carrier txt capability.

No experience, just what I read.

yes it is only with other apple products

[stevew]

I've been playing around with my Envy x2 for the last couple days. I managed to snag it from Staples for $525, and I'd say it's worth about that much(but surely not the 850 list price). As a tablet, it functions pretty solidly and I like the size for watching movies(11.6"). Battery life is pretty solid. The keyboard dock(included) has a pretty nice build quality as well. I haven't really messed around with any games on it thus far, but I'm overall pretty happy. It comes with 64GB of storage, but you can add a Micro SD to the tablet for expansion and the dock has a full sized SD card. All in all, as was reported, basically a netbook but it has the tablet functions that are versatile. Hopefully the next gen will see a processor/ram boost, but the build quality of the unit, hinge and all, is really nice.

[Fidatelo]

Placed my pre-order for a Surface Pro 2 today. I really would have liked the 8GB of RAM in the higher-end models but I just couldn't justify the extra $300, so its a 128GB model with type cover for me. Can't wait until the end of October!

[sterlingice]

I completely missed the Surface Pro 2 announcement. That was last week, wasn't it? I didn't see anything about it.

SI

[Dutch]

I bought my wife a Surface Pro I and it's really a great tablet. It's quickly become the de facto laptop/tablet of choice when chillin' in the living room or out on the back patio.

I did splurge on the "mechanical" keyboard cover instead of the touch keyboard cover and that's paid dividends...confidence while typing fast is important to me and that gives me enough "feel" to type correctly.

[sterlingice]

I really want to pull the trigger on a Surface Pro but there are 3 things in my way. One: it's kindof bulky for a tablet but that's a minor complaint. Two: I'm not getting Win 8 RT- I want a real operating system on there, even for my tooling around computer. Three: Microsoft seems like they aren't even trying on the price. I could get an ultra-thin for that price with more power and pretty much just as mobile.

SI

[Dutch]

I think you can get a pretty decent Win8 tablet from Dell that will probably save you some cash. I stuck it out with the Surface because of the magnetized attachments (keyboard cover/power/pen) which is pretty cool.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've got the original Surface Pro - hardly use it tbh, not an awful device ... but nothing about it encourages me to use it as an alternative to a laptop .... then again I feel exactly the same about the iPad, Nexus10 etc. ..... they're all useful when I'm travelling for watching TV and occassional gameplaying - but thats about it.

[gstelmack]

I really want to pull the trigger on a Surface Pro but ... Two: I'm not getting Win 8 RT- I want a real operating system on there, even for my tooling around computer.

The Surface Pro was full Windows 8 (with a full Intel Core i5 processor), it's the Surface RT / Surface 2 that have RT.

[sterlingice]

The Surface Pro was full Windows 8 (with a full Intel Core i5 processor), it's the Surface RT / Surface 2 that have RT.

I guess I didn't articulate it all that well. Surface Pro = too expensive. Cheaper Surface as an alternative = crappy Win RT

SI

[Fidatelo]

I've got the original Surface Pro - hardly use it tbh, not an awful device ... but nothing about it encourages me to use it as an alternative to a laptop .... then again I feel exactly the same about the iPad, Nexus10 etc. ..... they're all useful when I'm travelling for watching TV and occassional gameplaying - but thats about it.

I intend to use my Pro 2 as a full laptop replacement. I switched jobs a couple weeks ago and had to hand in all of my work hardware, including an old MacBook Pro which I basically used as a home computer. I'm not sure if my new workplace is as lax with their machines and so I figured it was time to purchase something (I haven't bought a computer in about a decade as I always had old work laptops to use).

Anyways, I see my main uses as:

- internet surfing/email.

- games - Civ 5, XCOM, text sims, indie stuff - I don't ever tend to play shooters or other games that tax systems, and I don't mind turning graphics levels down.

- movies/shows - this will be great for watching Breaking Bad in bed or whatever.

- web development 'research' - I'm a software developer and I like to mess around with web stuff in my spare time. My current challenge is to create a little web site using a stack that does not include any MS components (AngularJS site written using JetBrains WebStorm sitting in an AWS cloud getting data from one of Amazons database engines). I think the Surface Pro should handle little stuff like this just fine.

I really feel like the Pro is a sweet spot for the usage listed above. It's got the convienience of a tablet for surfing, email, movies and shows. And yet it also has the horsepower to run 'real' games like Civ 5 and development software like WebStorm. If I wanted to spend 8 hours a day on it with Visual Studio and SQL Server running I don't think it would be the right machine, but for what I want it seems like the best of both worlds. I can't wait to find out!

[Marc Vaughan]

Main thing which prevented me using my Pro (or Android/iOS tablet) as a 'replacement' are:

(1) Speed - none of them are quite as fast as my MacBook Pro.
(2) Input - I need precision input for typing and controlling applications, a touch screen doesn't give me that and the original Pro's crappy mouse pad replacement is well ... crappy, if it'd been half decent then I think it'd have been the best of the bunch.

[Subby]

Microsoft slashing prices on the Pro:

Surface Pro Price Cut: Microsoft slashes Surface Pro price again | BGR (http://bgr.com/2013/10/24/surface-pro-price-cut-699/)

11:50 AM
Microsoft’s Surface Pro is easily one of the most exciting and unique Windows computers that has ever been created, but unfortunately the device’s sleek design and novel keyboard accessories haven’t translated into big sales. Microsoft took a charge of nearly $1 billion last fiscal year related to unsold Surface RT and Surface Pro inventory, and it dropped each device’s price as well. Now, Microsoft has slashed the Surface Pro’s price again by another $100 as it looks to attract buyers and clear inventory following the Surface Pro 2′s recent debut. Microsoft’s Pro tablet now starts at $699 with 64GB of storage and the 128GB model is available for $799. Interestingly, those prices now align perfectly with Apple’s 64GB and 128GB iPad tablets. The two Surface Pro models were originally priced at $899 and $999 respectively when they first debuted.

[Marc Vaughan]

- games - Civ 5, XCOM, text sims, indie stuff - I don't ever tend to play shooters or other games that tax systems, and I don't mind turning graphics levels down.
Out of interest - does it play nice with Steam now? ... as most games I have are owned through that and touch input wasn't working at all on it when I last used my Surface Pro (which admittedly is months ago now).

[Fidatelo]

Out of interest - does it play nice with Steam now? ... as most games I have are owned through that and touch input wasn't working at all on it when I last used my Surface Pro (which admittedly is months ago now).

I'll let you know tonight or tomorrow, as I'm patiently waiting at home for my SP2 to be delivered this afternoon :D

[Fidatelo]

Out of interest - does it play nice with Steam now? ... as most games I have are owned through that and touch input wasn't working at all on it when I last used my Surface Pro (which admittedly is months ago now).

It arrived! So I installed Steam and played around with it. Doesn't seem very touch friendly (can't just swipe, rather you need to use your finger on the scroll bar), but I don't find it that difficult to use. I haven't installed any games yet (Civ 5 is still downloading). Were there specific pain points you were having that I could try to replicate?

[Marc Vaughan]

I found that simply 'clicking' in the games was problematic - I'd have to click 3-4 times to get it to detect once etc.

(even with a processor 'light' game like Hero Academy it seemed to be the case - was blooming annoying, enough so that it basically mothballed the surface for me)

[Fidatelo]

Well so far I've only played 2 Steam games: Civ 5, and XCOM. Civ 5 plays great, with one annoyance: the on screen keyboard won't overlay, so if you ever need to type in text you need to break out the type cover. Normally this would be a non-issue except that I love to play multiplayer games over Giant Multiplayer Robot, and that system requires me to enter my password before each turn.

XCOM seems to be fairly unplayable using touch. The pen kinda-sorta works, but not very well. I've always preferred this game with a controller connected as opposed to even with mouse and keyboard, though, so I'll probably just play it that way anyways. Still kinda sucks though, since I know they have an iOS version that must support touch.

I've also played some Hearthstone, which is not a Steam game but is not a Windows Store game either. It plays fantastic with touch controls, which is awesome.

So far I'm pretty happy with the device. The battery life is not good when playing games, but is otherwise solid. I've yet to hear the fans or feel any heat of any kind. I love the pen and can't wait to make use of it for diagramming or note taking at work. I really enjoy the metro version of IE for browsing, more than I thought I would (I'm a Chrome diehard but aside from not having my synced bookmarks I'm not missing it). The start up times are crazy fast, and the sound is amazing. The type cover 2 is also really good (although totally overpriced).

Now for some cons: biggest one is that I'm not totally sure the software is not a bit borked. I've noticed that instead of resuming from sleep it sometimes just flat-out restarts. Because the restart is so fast (< 5 seconds) its a bit hard to tell when it has happened, but I have noticed it a couple times for sure. I also had something really strange happen to Civ 5 today where it started looking at the wrong directory for my save games and not remembering any of my settings. I'm currently re-installing to see if it gets fixed, but it makes me sort of worry about what went on there. From a hardware perspective, the finish seems a bit delicate, such that in the first day of very light use a couple of small scratches have already appeared on the back. I've quickly learned to set it down on the type cover rather than on the back of the device, but I may also look into some kind of decal or skin for the back if that doesn't prove effective enough. And while I really think the pen is a great accessory, they should have found a way to build a silo or other proper holder for it when it's not in use. The magnetic attachment is just not strong enough to trust while handling the device, and is also useless when you need to charge the surface, meaning you're putting the pen on a desk or something and risking losing it. Maybe that's a good way to sell $30 pens, but it sucks from an end-user perspective.

[MacroGuru]

Yeah, M$ needs to hire this guy just for marketing the Surface 2...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wG1b0yBJHLM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DaddyTorgo]

Can you's play FM on it?

[MacroGuru]

Can you's play FM on it?

Can't say yes or no. I will be getting a Surface 2 Pro, but it will be a few months out.

[Young Drachma]

I can play FM on my Surface 1, so no reason you can't on the new one. Runs Steam and all of my games. Text sims like FBCB and OOTP run less well on it because of resolution issues, however. But I have no problem running SimCity, FM or anything in Steam on it.

[FLC28]

I just got a Surface 2 Pro (The 256gb version) and it runs FM wonderfully!