Front Office Football, the Card Game

[Zeniazd]

Front Office Football: The Card Game by Jim Gindin (Solecismic Software) — Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1122756216/front-office-football-the-card-game)

Jim needs your help!

[Danny]

There's really no chance this gets to 43k.

[Toddzilla]

Phenomenal

[Subby]

People can bag on Jim all they want about this, but kudos to him for getting this to the Kickstarter stage.

[Danny]

Not trying to bag on him, but being realistic. A $55 price tag for poor artwork and limited components will keep everyone except FOF fanatics away from pledging.

[Ben E Lou]

Not trying to bag on him, but being realistic. A $55 price tag for poor artwork and limited components will keep everyone except FOF fanatics away from pledging.Well, the subset he needs to tap into is "board game geeks who want to play a football board game and who would move over from Strat." No idea how big that group is. My guess is that it's too small to sustain the game, but it's a group that exists mostly completely outside of FOFC. Therefore, I strongly suspect that the statement "will keep everyone except FOF fanatics from pledging" is incorrect. People will pledge who aren't into FOF at all. But will there be enough of them? My guess is no, but I fully admit to being completely ignorant of the market this would reach.

[DaddyTorgo]

$43,000?

Whoa.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I wish Jim the best of luck with this endeavor.

[Ben E Lou]

$43,000?

Whoa.Enough to print 1,000 copies?

[spleen1015]

I wish Jim the best of luck with this endeavor.

+1

[Sun Tzu]

I'm 30 years old, and I have absolutely zero interest in this. I think it's fairly safe to say most people younger than me feel the same way.

I don't understand this move by Jim.

*edit* I think there's just a generational gap here. I have never, in my life, played a sports-related board game. In fact, most board games that I'm familiar with now have some kind of electronic integration, be it "catchphrase" or something similar. Of course I hope this works out for Jim, but I just don't get why he would put so much effort into something that's clearly based on personal nostalgia.

[Ben E Lou]

I wish Jim the best of luck with this endeavor.

+1

:withstupid:

[Marc Vaughan]

I think its feasible enough - I've backed it despite honestly not expecting to ever play the game ... because I think its a cool idea and I really respect Jim as a games designer.

I DO however think that if anyone here has art skills and wants to knock up some 'magic the gathering' style cards (ie. more fluff art, less programmer art) for Jim to post as mockups for the final products then that'd help a LOT with getting people who've never played FOF backing it ...

[Blackadar]

I'm 30 years old, and I have absolutely zero interest in this. I think it's fairly safe to say most people younger than me feel the same way.

I don't understand this move by Jim.

*edit* I think there's just a generational gap here. I have never, in my life, played a sports-related board game. In fact, most board games that I'm familiar with now have some kind of electronic integration, be it "catchphrase" or something similar. Of course I hope this works out for Jim, but I just don't get why he would put so much effort into something that's clearly based on personal nostalgia.

Don't think it's a generational gap. I'm a lot older and I have zero interest in this.

[AnalBumCover]

This brought back memories of an NFL based CCG called Red Zone (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3849/red-zone) which never really took off.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Don't think it's a generational gap. I'm a lot older and I have zero interest in this.

This.

[Logan]

Unless I'm misreading how this works (and I don't think I am - it's a physical card game), I think the biggest problem is not only finding enough people who want to play it, but enough people who ALSO know enough people who will want to play it with them. This has to be such a narrow market...now you need two people in that narrow market to also live close enough to each other to link up for an in-person game.

I could kind of see it being interesting to people if this is all done virtually. Would obviously significantly reduce costs as well.

But another +1 to hoping this works out for Jim.

[DaddyTorgo]

Enough to print 1,000 copies?

Valid point. Just seems like a big chunk of change.

[JAG]

Unless I'm misreading how this works (and I don't think I am - it's a physical card game), I think the biggest problem is not only finding enough people who want to play it, but enough people who ALSO know enough people who will want to play it with them. This has to be such a narrow market...now you need two people in that narrow market to also live close enough to each other to link up for an in-person game.

I could kind of see it being interesting to people if this is all done virtually. Would obviously significantly reduce costs as well.

But another +1 to hoping this works out for Jim.

Those were exactly my thoughts as well, especially the bolded part.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm 30 years old, and I have absolutely zero interest in this. I think it's fairly safe to say most people younger than me feel the same way.

I don't understand this move by Jim.

*edit* I think there's just a generational gap here. I have never, in my life, played a sports-related board game. In fact, most board games that I'm familiar with now have some kind of electronic integration, be it "catchphrase" or something similar. Of course I hope this works out for Jim, but I just don't get why he would put so much effort into something that's clearly based on personal nostalgia.I don't think it's purely "generational." There are lots of people not too much older than you (I'm 43) who got their start into the sim world playing dice-and-card type games, and a fair number of them (especially at *this* board..I'll deal with that later) won't purchase this.

In 1978, when I was 9, the very few electronic options didn't come anywhere close to what Statis-Pro and Strat-O-Matic could offer in terms of depth, stats, etc. There was Atari, Intellivision, and the little hand-held control-the-little-blip games. No stats, and just the barest hint of play calling or coaching or strategy.

Fast-forward 20 years to FOF's release. Those of us who had interest in taking the dice-and-cards concept to the next level and having career sims jumped over to FOF, Mogul, OOTP, etc. My personal story is that from around 1992-1997, I played every version of Strat-O-Matic Computer Baseball, the PC adaptation of that game. I wrote the company every year with a list of issues that needed to be addressed. They addressed many of my issues, and I bought the newest version every year. I guess I would be what you'd call a "loyal customer. " But the one feature request they never addressed that caused them to lose me was that at least once a year I included a plea for some sort of "career" options to that game. They never did it, and when FOF and BBM showed up in 1997-98, Strat never got another dime from me.

And to circle back to why this particular board isn't the target audience, many of us are part of a self-selecting group. We're either too young to have played sports sim board games, or we played those games but our interest evolved to the computer and to *career* sims. Think about it: whenever someone mentions some teh awesome computer game that has no career option, the vast majority of people here write it off immediately.

However, nearly 35 years after I sat in my bedroom holding Dave Kingman's Statis Pro card and keeping score on a piece of paper, people are still playing Statis-Pro, Strat-O-Matic, and probably other games I don't care about. If JG can tap into that market by producing something better than Strat in particular, then more power to him, and ultimately, probably good for us as well.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Though I have no idea who those people are, their demographics, etc, clearly they exist. They exist in numbers at least large enough for Strat to keep printing new baseball and football card games every year, and selling them for ~$50 a pop.

[Passacaglia]

I think Ben is on to something, in that the lack of a career option is a big negative, IMO. I don't know what the game will look like, but maybe hopefully it's the kind of thing where career leagues can form, or just some sort of team-building -- I played APBA Football back in the day (1990 set), and I immediately shuffled the teams and never looked back. I could see some online leagues forming with this, using random.org as well.

[Ben E Lou]

I think Ben is on to something, in that the lack of a career option is a big negative, IMO. I don't know what the game will look like, but maybe hopefully it's the kind of thing where career leagues can form, or just some sort of team-building -- I played APBA Football back in the day (1990 set), and I immediately shuffled the teams and never looked back. I could see some online leagues forming with this, using random.org as well.But again, that's our interest. Clearly there are sports board gamers out there with little/no "career sim" interest, otherwise Strat-O-Matic and others would either be out of business or forced to evolve. He might not need any career play to reach people *outside* of the FOF customer base, but even beyond the "card-game" part of it, the lack of solo career play is doing to be a deal-breaker for a significant part of the *existing* customer base.

I just have no real clue how big of a niche the sports-sim dice-and-card gaming world is, or if Jim's game is good enough to move people already entrenched in that genre away from their existing favorite(s).

[dubb93]

I'm considering taking the leap of faith. I don't play board games, nor do I really know anyone who would want to play a board game with me, but hell, I can always guilt Mrs. Dubb93 into giving it a try. Or not, IDK. Seems quite a bit of money for something I would have to put work into just getting someone to play it with me.

That said I've recently fired FOF 2K7 back up and I sure would pay quite a bit for an undated version of that....

[Passacaglia]

But again, that's our interest. Clearly there are sports board gamers out there with little/no "career sim" interest, otherwise Strat-O-Matic and others would either be out of business or forced to evolve. He might not need any career play to reach people *outside* of the FOF customer base, but even beyond the "card-game" part of it, the lack of solo career play is doing to be a deal-breaker for a significant part of the *existing* customer base.

I just have no real clue how big of a niche the sports-sim dice-and-card gaming world is, or if Jim's game is good enough to move people already entrenched in that genre away from their existing favorite(s).

Agreed, I was definitely speaking of myself regarding career play. But on that not, Strat-O-Matic has been around long enough that a "me too" game won't move people away -- there needs to be something that differentiates it. I've never played Strat-O-Matic, though, so I'd have no idea what it is. From reading the Kickstarter page, and my APBA experience, my guess is that the differentiation would have to be simplicity.

[DaddyTorgo]

That's why making it playable online would be hugely helpful. Isn't there that program that people use to play physical boardgames online vs. other people (I'm not a boardgamer, I don't know the name of it). Jim should definitely make this game compatible with that, as that would alleviate the concern of having to have multiple friends nearby to play with.

I find that I buy boardgames and then have no friends who are interested in boardgaming with me.

[Passacaglia]

I think the biggest problem is not only finding enough people who want to play it, but enough people who ALSO know enough people who will want to play it with them.

This is also me. I think I'd have fun playing it, possibly, but I don't know anyone else who would. Maybe when my kids are old enough or something. :p

[molson]

It's interesting to me even on this message board, with the known interests of the posters here, we have, apparently, nobody, that can even shed light on the existence of the sports board gaming crowd. I don't doubt these people exist, they're just kind of mysterious. Are there people having parties in the midwest somewhere where they play Strat-O-Matic for hours on end? Has anyone here ever lived among these people, observed them in their habitats? I could see the whole thing being a lot of fun with the right people, but it'd be near impossible to keep it going over time, and I myself wouldn't be able to stop wondering, "can't we just do this on a computer?" I'm thinking maybe Strat-O-Matic sells a lot of products as gifts to baseball fans that end up in closests unopened.

[Logan]

That said I've recently fired FOF 2K7 back up and I sure would pay quite a bit for an undated version of that....

I'm surprised this wasn't Jim's method of getting a "kickstarter" for this project. I guess this presents a more unique marketing opportunity for the (hopefully eventual) release of the game.

[Logan]

It's interesting to me even on this message board, with the known interests of the posters here, we have, apparently, nobody, that can even shed light on the existence of the sports board gaming crowd. I don't doubt these people exist, they're just kind of mysterious. Are there people having parties in the midwest somewhere where they play Strat-O-Matic for hours on end? Has anyone here ever lived among these people, observed them in their habitats? I could see the whole thing being a lot of fun with the right people, but it'd be near impossible to keep it going over time, and I myself wouldn't be able to stop wondering, "can't we just do this on a computer?" I'm thinking maybe Strat-O-Matic sells a lot of products as gifts to baseball fans that end up in closests unopened.

Quick, someone PM that Bigfoot guy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's interesting to me even on this message board, with the known interests of the posters here, we have, apparently, nobody, that can even shed light on the existence of the sports board gaming crowd. I don't doubt these people exist, they're just kind of mysterious. Are there people having parties in the midwest somewhere where they play Strat-O-Matic for hours on end? Has anyone here ever lived among these people, observed them in their habitats? I could see the whole thing being a lot of fun with the right people, but it'd be near impossible to keep it going over time, and I myself wouldn't be able to stop wondering, "can't we just do this on a computer?" I'm thinking maybe Strat-O-Matic sells a lot of products as gifts to baseball fans that end up in closests unopened.

The tabletop gaming forums on Delphi are as good a focus group as any I think (and the fact that the niche is still active on Delphi probably says something in & of itself).

The majority seem to be solo gamers who have the occasional opportunity to play h2h against a live human. Otherwise there's a whole variety of systems/workarounds/house rules/etc that create ways to play ostensibly h2h games by yourself.

[Sun Tzu]

I don't think it's purely "generational." There are lots of people not too much older than you (I'm 43) who got their start into the sim world playing dice-and-card type games, and a fair number of them (especially at *this* board..I'll deal with that later) won't purchase this.

I think the disconnect here is what you and I consider a generation gap. I'm not speaking to generations based on "you're old enough to be my dad." Rather, I'm speaking to technological generations, which IMO turn over once every 5-7 years. I've never seen a commodore 64, and I've played an Atari maybe twice in my life. My earliest memories were of playing Tecmo Bowl, and very shortly thereafter...Madden on the Genesis. To me, and many other folks very close to my age, playing a sports board game is akin to the current tech generation calling their friends rather than texting them. The technology seems outdated, and if you were to suggest the outdated option you would very likely get a response to the tune of "Why would you want to do that, when you could do this?"

[Ben E Lou]

...and the fact that the niche is still active on Delphi probably says something in & of itself...:lol:

[Ben E Lou]

Holy cow, Jon. I just went over there. Ok, those forums are CRAZY active. That's....wow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think the disconnect here is what you and I consider a generation gap. I'm not speaking to generations based on "you're old enough to be my dad." Rather, I'm speaking to technological generations, which IMO turn over once every 5-7 years. I've never seen a commodore 64, and I've played an Atari maybe twice in my life. My earliest memories were of playing Tecmo Bowl, and very shortly thereafter...Madden on the Genesis. To me, and many other folks very close to my age, playing a sports board game is akin to the current tech generation calling their friends rather than texting them. The technology seems outdated, and if you were to suggest the outdated option you would very likely get a response to the tune of "Why would you want to do that, when you could do this?"

On the other hand, my kid loves 'em & he's 14. It's actually fairly common for tabletoppers to get their kids hooked, although not always on the same games.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Holy cow, Jon. I just went over there. Ok, those forums are CRAZY active. That's....wow.

I haven't been in a while, both because I'm pretty much out of the tabletop genre these days and because I grew weary of the incessant drama between fans of competing baseball games. Last time I looked though it was pretty much the same traffic as a few years ago, mostly the same faces actually.

There are some truly high quality guys in the genre (both playing & developing) and there are also some seriously annoying asshats (particularly of the fanboy variety).

[Sun Tzu]

On the other hand, my kid loves 'em & he's 14. It's actually fairly common for tabletoppers to get their kids hooked, although not always on the same games.

Right, but would you agree that fathers getting their 14 year old kids hooked on tabletop games is an extremely small niche market? Far too small, in my opinion, to put any kind of uber-effort into publishing and investing in a new game.

Maybe my idea of this being successful is different than Jim's. I couldn't see kids wanting to grab this at Target, and I sincerely doubt you'd find this game on many X-mas lists to Santa, regardless of how big their Daddy's were into Strat-O games.

[CraigSca]

Along with Jon, I've been on those Delphi forums for a good, long while. There's huge interest in any new football game that comes out, but the majority of people I see on those forums are looking for:

1) Ability to replay their favorite teams/seasons
2) Typically solo
3) Looking for games that last around an hour

I'm not really sure Jim's game fills any of those demographics, but it doesn't seem to be attempting to. I've thought about kickstarting his game, but I know I won't really play it - it's more of a "support Jim" kind of thing.

[Passacaglia]

On the other hand, my kid loves 'em & he's 14. It's actually fairly common for tabletoppers to get their kids hooked, although not always on the same games.

That's what I'm hoping for my kids -- I think I'd rather see them playing board games as opposed to playing on the computer, it just seems slightly more social. I wonder if there will be another generation gap, with the next generation thinking of board games as a stand-alone thing, as opposed to a thing that got replaced by computer games.

[Passacaglia]

Just throwing some numbers out here.

Posts in 2012 video games thread: 784
Posts in board games thread since 1/5/2012, the day the 2012 video games thread was created: 707

That's pretty interesting. I don't think the issue is with board games in general, at least among this crowd, but I think it's what molson said -- with a football game, especially among this group, there's going to be a notion of "can't we do this on a computer?" going on.

[Ben E Lou]

Just throwing some numbers out here.

Posts in 2012 video games thread: 784
Posts in board games thread since 1/5/2012, the day the 2012 video games thread was created: 707

That's pretty interesting. I don't think the issue is with board games in general, at least among this crowd, but I think it's what molson said -- with a football game, especially among this group, there's going to be a notion of "can't we do this on a computer?" going on.Not a surprise when most of us were brought here by a computer football game. ;)

[Passacaglia]

Not a surprise when most of us were brought here by a computer football game. ;)

Right, that's what I was referring to when I said "especially among this group." I guess I singled out FOFC twice in that post -- the first time was to establish that we are a group that likes board games, but the second time was to say that we're a group that plays football sims on the computer.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's interesting to me even on this message board, with the known interests of the posters here, we have, apparently, nobody, that can even shed light on the existence of the sports board gaming crowd. I don't doubt these people exist, they're just kind of mysterious. Are there people having parties in the midwest somewhere where they play Strat-O-Matic for hours on end? Has anyone here ever lived among these people, observed them in their habitats? I could see the whole thing being a lot of fun with the right people, but it'd be near impossible to keep it going over time, and I myself wouldn't be able to stop wondering, "can't we just do this on a computer?" I'm thinking maybe Strat-O-Matic sells a lot of products as gifts to baseball fans that end up in closests unopened.

This

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's what I'm hoping for my kids -- I think I'd rather see them playing board games as opposed to playing on the computer, it just seems slightly more social. I wonder if there will be another generation gap, with the next generation thinking of board games as a stand-alone thing, as opposed to a thing that got replaced by computer games.

I think stand-alone is pretty much the future of dice-and-chart sports games.

My son just busted out one he hadn't played in months the other night (a pro wrestling game) & was asking for help on creating some new character cards so he could freshen it up a bit. At no point in his life do I think he's ever considered it realistic to hope that he'd find anyone to play any of the tabletop games with him (other than me).

By comparison, I'd say probably 50-60 percent of his friends/peers are console gamers, but even there it's a split thing. The XBox kids play with the XBox kids, the Wii kids with Wii kids, PS3 kids with PS3 kids ... and only maybe 1 or 2 of them ever cross platforms.

[CraigSca]

This

There are a lot of leagues that still get together to play APBA, Strat and Replay Baseball. I've never joined one, only because I've always like career type play with my own leagues (FOF, OOTP). From what I've seen, while there are a number of leagues, they are very much a dying breed (in their 50s or greater). On the forums I've seen a few younger people, but they are few and far between (because the younger generation is much more comfortable with the computer).

It's funny - in replay leagues (either with friends or on their own) the season people choose to play usually comes from age 10-14 of the replayer. Therefore, a large demographic of the tabletop crowd loves to replay seasons from the 1960s. Whether they work on a computer all day doesn't matter, their game playing is all about comfort, and their comfort exists in what they were doing as a 10-14 year old.

I see tabletop gaming today as a much more social operation (Magic, Settlers of Cataan, etc.). I don't know if there's a huge market for a "social, statistically accurate football simulation". Non-social, sure, just because of the demographics.

[chinaski]

I would love to play this, but I can almost guarantee everyone I know would not want to play it with me.

[Pyser]

this is screaming for a phone app to me. people dont sit down and play card games much for an hour anymore, but if i could take my turn whenever i have time to check my phone? sure, i'd give it a whirl then

[CraigSca]

this is screaming for a phone app to me. people dont sit down and play card games much for an hour anymore, but if i could take my turn whenever i have time to check my phone? sure, i'd give it a whirl then


Wow, absolutely.

[Passacaglia]

My thoughts after a quick read of the rules:

I'm surprised the home defense is stronger than the away defense, but the offenses are the same. I'd have thought the home offense should be stronger than away, but the defenses would be the same.
Is the manual in black and white? It seems like with the colored dice, it would make sense to put it in color.
That's a lot of lookups for each play -- I like how it adds to the complexity, but I wonder how long it takes on average to figure out what happened on a play.
I like the idea of having the formation on the back and playing the card face down while the defense chooses a play, along with the audibles.
I think it's confusing that the game is called Front Office Football. For one, there's already a (computer) game with that name, and for another, Front Office doesn't really describe it (though I understand the idea of name recognition).

[Solecismic]

I think its feasible enough - I've backed it despite honestly not expecting to ever play the game ... because I think its a cool idea and I really respect Jim as a games designer.

I DO however think that if anyone here has art skills and wants to knock up some 'magic the gathering' style cards (ie. more fluff art, less programmer art) for Jim to post as mockups for the final products then that'd help a LOT with getting people who've never played FOF backing it ...

Thanks, Marc.

I hope "fluff art" isn't important for something like this. I was going for something clean and easily read. Admittedly I've spent far too much time working on these cards. And there really are too many of them (hundreds) to make individual designs feasible.

I think there's a middle ground between having the really great art we see in Magic, Dominion, the collectible card games, and the plain white tearsheets.

The question, to me, is if there's a market for this type of game mechanics among sports enthusiasts. Obviously, if I solely market this to FOF players, I'm going to be disappointed.

Sports games offer an instant complexity that those of us who follow sports instantly tap into. The downside is that there's also a complex rule set we have to follow.

I do love a new challenge, and getting this project into a form where even hard-core board gamers are telling me it's ready has been quite a nice experience. It may well not get funded. Marketing is the elephant in the room, and a role that does not come to me naturally.

The "light bulb" moment in this was when I realized that there are similarities between the deck construction mechanism for Magic, and how NFL coaches approach game-planning. That's what motivated me to finally get off my ass and do this. Of course, while this concept may appeal to me personally, it might well not be enough to attract enough customers to make printing this possible.

[Passacaglia]

My thoughts after a quick read of the rules:

I'm surprised the home defense is stronger than the away defense, but the offenses are the same. I'd have thought the home offense should be stronger than away, but the defenses would be the same.
Is the manual in black and white? It seems like with the colored dice, it would make sense to put it in color.
That's a lot of lookups for each play -- I like how it adds to the complexity, but I wonder how long it takes on average to figure out what happened on a play.
I like the idea of having the formation on the back and playing the card face down while the defense chooses a play, along with the audibles.
I think it's confusing that the game is called Front Office Football. For one, there's already a (computer) game with that name, and for another, Front Office doesn't really describe it (though I understand the idea of name recognition).

Also, are the expanded game rules not up yet, or am I just missing them?

[EagleFan]

Shame it wasn't a TCY 2 kind of light bulb moment... just sayin' ;)

[Solecismic]

My thoughts after a quick read of the rules:

I'm surprised the home defense is stronger than the away defense, but the offenses are the same. I'd have thought the home offense should be stronger than away, but the defenses would be the same.
Is the manual in black and white? It seems like with the colored dice, it would make sense to put it in color.
That's a lot of lookups for each play -- I like how it adds to the complexity, but I wonder how long it takes on average to figure out what happened on a play.
I like the idea of having the formation on the back and playing the card face down while the defense chooses a play, along with the audibles.
I think it's confusing that the game is called Front Office Football. For one, there's already a (computer) game with that name, and for another, Front Office doesn't really describe it (though I understand the idea of name recognition).

To answer your questions:

In terms of game flow and design, it's far easier to build the home field advantage into the defensive cards. It's a small one. I've never studied whether there's more of an offensive or defensive home-field advantage in the NFL. That would be an interesting variable to assess at some point.

The manual is in black-and-white. The way the dice work, it's not going to be confusing, and it saves a lot of money.

Once you've run a couple of plays, maybe 10-15 seconds. The way the dice work makes a lookup short, and it proceeds, defense card to get rating, offense card to get chart column, chart to get yardage, on rare occasions second look at the chart.

The expanded game rules require reconfiguration of the v.1 rules and charts. I'm not going to do that unless I reach the printing stage. This was the game that would most likely take 4 hours, though the streamlining of the card design easily knocks an hour off.

I realized once I reached v.1 and started playtesting that the game simply wouldn't work as a stand-alone in that form. So v.2 (this is more like v.2.5 now) is designed as an hour-long game.

I hope it funds. It is something I'd play with friends who were into football. My girlfriend even enjoyed being part of the testing - she surprised me with her ability to adopt a strong strategy without even a suggestion on my part.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've tweeted about the game and will prod it around on a few forums I frequent - if anyone else is feeling kind then I'd suggest they do the same, word of mouse is a useful tool ...

[TroyF]

I don't think it's purely "generational." There are lots of people not too much older than you (I'm 43) who got their start into the sim world playing dice-and-card type games, and a fair number of them (especially at *this* board..I'll deal with that later) won't purchase this.

In 1978, when I was 9, the very few electronic options didn't come anywhere close to what Statis-Pro and Strat-O-Matic could offer in terms of depth, stats, etc. There was Atari, Intellivision, and the little hand-held control-the-little-blip games. No stats, and just the barest hint of play calling or coaching or strategy.

Fast-forward 20 years to FOF's release. Those of us who had interest in taking the dice-and-cards concept to the next level and having career sims jumped over to FOF, Mogul, OOTP, etc. My personal story is that from around 1992-1997, I played every version of Strat-O-Matic Computer Baseball, the PC adaptation of that game. I wrote the company every year with a list of issues that needed to be addressed. They addressed many of my issues, and I bought the newest version every year. I guess I would be what you'd call a "loyal customer. " But the one feature request they never addressed that caused them to lose me was that at least once a year I included a plea for some sort of "career" options to that game. They never did it, and when FOF and BBM showed up in 1997-98, Strat never got another dime from me.

And to circle back to why this particular board isn't the target audience, many of us are part of a self-selecting group. We're either too young to have played sports sim board games, or we played those games but our interest evolved to the computer and to *career* sims. Think about it: whenever someone mentions some teh awesome computer game that has no career option, the vast majority of people here write it off immediately.

However, nearly 35 years after I sat in my bedroom holding Dave Kingman's Statis Pro card and keeping score on a piece of paper, people are still playing Statis-Pro, Strat-O-Matic, and probably other games I don't care about. If JG can tap into that market by producing something better than Strat in particular, then more power to him, and ultimately, probably good for us as well.

Pretty much this. I have really fond memories of board games like strat, pursue the pennant and the like. Still remember when Vince freakin Coleman hit a grand slam in the world series to lead my friends team over mine. The game almost didn't survive my anger that night. I even replayed an entire season of strat and kept a game log of each game, season statistics, and selected award winners. Don't even ask me how much time or stacks of paper that cost.

Now I play FM, gary's basketball games and the like. If it doesn't say career, I'm done. No interest. All of my friends are married or live away. I travel a ton and have little time. If I do get together with friends now, it's to watch a game and talk about life. Not really sit down for a long board game session.

So my interest in this game is zero. (if I look at the kickstarter in three weeks and think some money might make a difference, I will donate, that's based on the respect I have for Jim, not based on anything else) if this game were on the ipad with a respectable ai? I'd spend $30 bucks on it in a hearbeat. It would be the perfect game to play on the plane. (I'm actually excited by Gridiron Solitaire by Bill Harris coming out for that very purpose)

As a board game I have no interest. I hope Jim reaches the goal and can produce it. For fans of that genre, I have little doubt it will be a terrific game. If/when he decides to get back into the computer realm, I'll be waiting.

[Marc Vaughan]

Had a few messages back from my tweet already - including requests for an iOS version .... I've prodded them towards the PC game also.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Of course, while this concept may appeal to me personally, it might well not be enough to attract enough customers to make printing this possible.

If you don't mind, I'd like to wish you sincere good luck with this project. Whether it appeals to me personally or not, I understand enough about the long road between concept & execution to figure anybody who is willing to give something like this a solid effort is worth pulling for to get that chance.

[DaddyTorgo]

If you don't mind, I'd like to wish you sincere good luck with this project. Whether it appeals to me personally or not, I understand enough about the long road between concept & execution to figure anybody who is willing to give something like this a solid effort is worth pulling for to get that chance.

Indeed - sincere good luck!

[CraigSca]

Probably won't play it either, but I decided to be a backer! I just love taking apart games to further my education on games and game theory and this is certainly one worth taking apart :)

Good luck, Jim!

[tarcone]

You need to get some videos up ASAP.
You need to tell the story behind. Not just with a written word.
You need to show the components up close. Even if they are just what you tested the game with.
And you need to show a play through. Maybe a quarter.

Ive noticed people on KS like stretch goals. Maybe add more teams as stretch goals. Or Better quality cards. Or better art work.

Good luck with this.

[tarcone]

Also, have you thought of adding more levels? Maybe adding 4 teams at $65 and giving 8 teams at $75 and 16 teams at $85. Give more options.
Im not real smart or creative, but I think you are. But limiting it to only 4 levels may not be the best way to go.

[Danny]

Right, but would you agree that fathers getting their 14 year old kids hooked on tabletop games is an extremely small niche market? Far too small, in my opinion, to put any kind of uber-effort into publishing and investing in a new game.

Maybe my idea of this being successful is different than Jim's. I couldn't see kids wanting to grab this at Target, and I sincerely doubt you'd find this game on many X-mas lists to Santa, regardless of how big their Daddy's were into Strat-O games.

The market is bigger than you think. Things like Magic and other CCG's and Miniature gaming is huge for kids. Strategy board games are also pretty big (especially games like Settlers of Catan, Dominion, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride and others), though probably a bit more so in Europe than in America where it is more of a niche. I personally love board and card games and much prefer them to video games at this point in my life (age 29).

The issue is that this game doesn't really appeal to this audience. Board and card games these days typically have much much better artwork than this and the cost to component ratio of FOF:TCG is awful compared to other card based games.

[tarcone]

Game is up at BGG on the KS page. People are already commenting that $55 is a steep price. And you have to pay $120 for all teams.

And a video comment appeared as well.

[Danny]

As an example, this game can be had for $20
1st & Goal Board Game | Board Games | Products | CoolStuffInc.com (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/Board+Games/1st+%26+Goal+Board+Game) and already has 30 or so teams available.

[Danny]

Game is up at BGG on the KS page. People are already commenting that $55 is a steep price. And you have to pay $120 for all teams.

And a video comment appeared as well.

The cost is really steep. I am a frequent buyer of board game and a card based game like this one is usually MSRP 35-40 at the most.

[Danny]

On a more positive note, despite my critique, I do want to give Jim a +1 for getting his game to this point. Designing and developing a game is a ton of work and I bet this game will actually probably be pretty good based on his usual quality of design. FWIW, I'd have some interest in backing if it was a 25-30 dollar game.

[Coffee Warlord]

Also, have you thought of adding more levels? Maybe adding 4 teams at $65 and giving 8 teams at $75 and 16 teams at $85. Give more options.
Im not real smart or creative, but I think you are. But limiting it to only 4 levels may not be the best way to go.

Honestly, I don't think *increasing* the price point is going to help.

[Solecismic]

The price on kickstarter includes shipping. I'm providing a lot more cards than First and Ten, and those are expensive. Also, they've published, so a reseller can chop 33% off the MSRP. I can't comment on the quality of the components.

It's $99 for the game and all the teams, shipped.

Where's the discussion on BGG? I thought you had to publish before you had a game page.

[tarcone]

Not necessarily increasing the price point. Just adding more flexibility.
You get a few teams at $55. You get 32 teams at $120. Why not add levels where you can get a division, or 2 divisions. and then a conference.
I think more people would like the flexibility. And maybe a couple divisions at $65 would be more appealing then one division at $55. And a conference at $80 might be more appealing then a division at $55.

Maybe Im wrong. But I look at a lot of board game KS projects. Probably too many. And this is what I see.

[tarcone]

BGG

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/59640/boardgame-kickstarter-projects

It is listed as an unpublished prototype. You are game 665 on page 27.

[Solecismic]

The cost is really steep. I am a frequent buyer of board game and a card based game like this one is usually MSRP 35-40 at the most.

This is MSRP $40, or at least that's what I based the kickstarter categories on. Also $12.50 most likely for each pack of 8 additional teams.

Since the card design has a different back and front, they are more expensive to produce.

[Danny]

Is the extra $15 just for shipping then? Usually games on kickstarter which sell for MSRP include shipping as part of that.

[Solecismic]

Yes, that's exactly what was quoted to me from the printer. I could probably do it myself for less, but then I'd have to add in the cost of getting it here, and a lot of time for packing and processing.

Maybe I should have gone with $45 or $50, shipped, but it would only change the number I have to sell to fund this - I don't think it's a good idea to produce the game without having the team cards available soon afterward, if not at the same time.

[Ben E Lou]

Game is up at BGG on the KS page. People are already commenting that $55 is a steep price. And you have to pay $120 for all teams.

And a video comment appeared as well.link?

[Ben E Lou]

ah..n/m later in thread, I see.

[Flasch186]

Thanks, Marc.

I hope "fluff art" isn't important for something like this. I was going for something clean and easily read. Admittedly I've spent far too much time working on these cards. And there really are too many of them (hundreds) to make individual designs feasible.

I think there's a middle ground between having the really great art we see in Magic, Dominion, the collectible card games, and the plain white tearsheets.


Not to be rude but, No. The hardcore board gamers, football fans, FOF fans are going to buy it because of its rudimentary, excel spreadhseet stylings however broadening the base requires the "sizzle".

Its the sizzle that will have the kid walking through the gaming store pick up the box, see a frickin' mack daddy LB player card that adds a bonus of "X" to a play that gets them to buy the game/pack. Arm veins exploding, helmet about to pop off his crazy big cranium and the QB he just hit spitting blood. That is what gets the card pack's wrapper shiny and why they'll shell out 3.99 for a pack of 8 cards.

Don't miss out on the fact that many many many people who play these games now like the fact that said card reflects, adds a bonus to the play, can only be used X times, turned sideways means he's concussed, breaks a QB's leg Theisman style, etc.

I love the spreadsheet but I also see what my son grabs walking down the toy aisle and tere is much much more money in sizzle than spreadsheet.

You can accomplish both.... meaningful gameplay and 8-15 impact cards that are drawn and artful. Shit, maybe a bunch of the peeps on here will lend a hand per position.

[DaddyTorgo]

You'd probably get a lot closer to funding with a video, but I guess you can't pull it off kickstarter until you get the video done? Also - to reduce the cost of printing the cards why not have a separate card for the formation? That way you could just have a small number of those to lay down and then the more numerous play cards would be cheaper, cutting down your cost.

[Buccaneer]

Having read the first set of psts, I will echo what Ben (and others) have said. Here's why I agree with them:

I just got an iPhone and was looking for games to play. I recalled that there was an iOOTP version and went looking for it. As soon as I read that it uses fictional historical rookie and limited historical career modes, I passed. It makes sense why there is not but while a graphical electronic sports sim in the palm of your hands would have been greatest thing in the world years ago, I can play much, much better electronic sports sims on my real computer instead.

[DaddyTorgo]

Having read the first set of psts, I will echo what Ben (and others) have said. Here's why I agree with them:

I just got an iPhone and was looking for games to play. I recalled that there was an iOOTP version and went looking for it. As soon as I read that it uses fictional historical rookie and limited historical career modes, I passed. It makes sense why there is not but while a graphical electronic sports sim in the palm of your hands would have been greatest thing in the world years ago, I can play much, much better electronic sports sims on my real computer instead.

So I'm confused - what are you saying? Put it on iPhone?

I think if this general idea was on iPhone, with some graphical sizzle you could microtransaction this motherfucker and build in H2H play for people with friends/strangers and you'd be rolling in the dough.

[Buccaneer]

So I'm confused - what are you saying? Put it on iPhone?

I think if this general idea was on iPhone, with some graphical sizzle you could microtransaction this motherfucker and build in H2H play for people with friends/strangers and you'd be rolling in the dough.

I was thinking more of this audience that prefers full career mode and all of the bells and whistles that entail. Given the technology of iPhones (or whatever) that is not possible, comparatively. That was my example of iOOTP. Why play a really dumbed-down version of the game when I can have the real thing? However, video H2H in a social context (plus all of the microtransaction dollars - $0.99 if you want a play-action pass :) ) seems to be what would sell in today's market, not something that most would not have any concept of.

[DaddyTorgo]

I was thinking more of this audience that prefers full career mode and all of the bells and whistles that entail. Given the technology of iPhones (or whatever) that is not possible, comparatively. That was my example of iOOTP. Why play a really dumbed-down version of the game when I can have the real thing? However, video H2H in a social context (plus all of the microtransaction dollars - $0.99 if you want a play-action pass :) ) seems to be what would sell in today's market, not something that most would not have any concept of.

Yeah - you could microtransaction new plays, or microtransaction "effect" cards - that kind of thing.

Bazinga!

[Galaril]

The tabletop gaming forums on Delphi are as good a focus group as any I think (and the fact that the niche is still active on Delphi probably says something in & of itself).

The majority seem to be solo gamers who have the occasional opportunity to play h2h against a live human. Otherwise there's a whole variety of systems/workarounds/house rules/etc that create ways to play ostensibly h2h games by yourself.

This!........I am one of the mysterious breed of sports board gamers. I started out like Ben and others playing strat o matic baseball and the like pre person al computers in the early mid 80s. I fell away from it after college and got plugged into sports computers sims like OOTP and FOF about 12 years ago. I am 42 and rediscovered sports table board games about 4 years ago giving up on almost all PC game not just sports in favor of board games.
I think I am more a rarity in this way and think it is because of being in IT management I won't to disconnect from computers in my free time.
It is absolutely true 90 percent of the board gamers are solo player folks and are not interested in the career play stuff lime here. I don't see this idea going very far without a solo aspect and seems to point to a complete lack of disconnect with the customer base for sports board games.

[Galaril]

Holy cow, Jon. I just went over there. Ok, those forums are CRAZY active. That's....wow.

Yes I started a forum for sports board games there and within a month had over a 1500 members:

[Mota]

I recently bought both Strat-o-Matic Baseball and Hockey and after playing them the first thing I thought was how much easier it would be to play them on a computer.

I don't know, I play plenty of video games but almost no board games because my friends live far away and my wife has no interest in those types of games. I used to play a SOM Baseball 80 game season every year with 6 friends but that's a long time ago, those people moved to FOF and OOTP years ago.

[Swaggs]

Not my cup of tea (mostly because of time/location restraints -- if it were something I could play online against folks that I know or meet from here (for example), after my kid gets to sleep, I'd be all in), but I hope it works out well for you, Jim.

The Kickstarter concept is really intriguing to me -- I spent probably 45 minutes looking around at stuff. I noticed that they have raised over $500K to remake the original Leisure Suit Larry, which is awesome. Dead State (a zombie, survivor game some of us were tracking awhile ago) is also on there and looks to have exceeded its goal, as well. And then there are some interesting smaller things, like helping to fund a lunch truck business or helping artists complete studio albums. I'm hopeful this could spur renaissance in computer gaming.

[tarcone]

Yes I started a forum for sports board games there and within a month had over a 1500 members:



Link?

[Galaril]

Link?

Sports Board Games for Fun Forums (http://forums.delphiforums.com/SGFF1/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E)

[tarcone]

I think it would benefit posting the full set of rules. People like to "see" the game before buying.

[tarcone]

BGG has a press release thread. You may want to put your KS project in there.

[PadresFan104]

So yeah... I'm one of those guys that most of you don't get, and that's ok!! I really can't explain it myself, I just really really like playing sports board games.

I really want to like games like FOF, OOTP, etc, but they literally put me to sleep. I'm just pushing buttons with a detached feeling that I can't shake.

With board games though, I feel immersed in the world I'm creating or re-creating. Rolling the dice or flipping the FACs keeps me engaged, as does the manual scorekeeping and stats tracking. Playing games where the computer does all that for you is nice, but again, I just get bored with it really quickly. It may also have something to do with all of the Statis-Pro Baseball I played as a kid, and the feeling of nostalgia I get when I play these games.

I spend a ton of time on the Delphi forums (Hi Dan!), and I love reading about new games, as well as learning about classic games I haven't tried yet. Sports table-top games are great gaming niche (albeit small!) and it's a great compliment to my overall gaming hobby when I burn out on the latest XBOX360 game.

As for this particular kickstarter, I wish Jim the best of luck!!

Al

[WSUCougar]

Reminds me a bit of NFL Strategy (Reminds me a bit of NFL Strategy from way back in the day. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4831/nfl-strategy) from way back in the day. And I think a few decades ago this concept would have rocked. But today...I dunno.

In any case, best of luck with the project, Jim.

[Galaril]

So yeah... I'm one of those guys that most of you don't get, and that's ok!! I really can't explain it myself, I just really really like playing sports board games.

I really want to like games like FOF, OOTP, etc, but they literally put me to sleep. I'm just pushing buttons with a detached feeling that I can't shake.

With board games though, I feel immersed in the world I'm creating or re-creating. Rolling the dice or flipping the FACs keeps me engaged, as does the manual scorekeeping and stats tracking. Playing games where the computer does all that for you is nice, but again, I just get bored with it really quickly. It may also have something to do with all of the Statis-Pro Baseball I played as a kid, and the feeling of nostalgia I get when I play these games.

I spend a ton of time on the Delphi forums (Hi Dan!), and I love reading about new games, as well as learning about classic games I haven't tried yet. Sports table-top games are great gaming niche (albeit small!) and it's a great compliment to my overall gaming hobby when I burn out on the latest XBOX360 game.

As for this particular kickstarter, I wish Jim the best of luck!!

Al


hey Al. Good post.

[PilotMan]

Jim, the only thing I am going to ask you is, why in God's green earth does your company not have a Facebook page?

[Solecismic]

It's just me. If I had a team behind me, social networking would be in someone's purview. Definitely not mine. I find I really don't have a lot to say to promote my products. I'd rather let people see what's out there and let them make their own decisions. What I do appeals to people who have a lot of imagination and don't need to be led. It will never sizzle or pop. I don't sizzle and pop, or even crackle a little. I care much more about replay value. I've always thought that, in time, customers will find me. My products are more evergreens, as the sales world terms them, than trendy and flashy. That's worked pretty well for me. It might not be an ideal paradigm for kickstarter-ing a completely new project, however.

[Passacaglia]

I think it would benefit posting the full set of rules. People like to "see" the game before buying.

There's a link to the rules on the KS page.

[Ben E Lou]

Ummmm...wow.

Delphi Forums Login (http://forums.delphiforums.com/tabletopsports/messages/?msg=22346.1)

[CraigSca]

Wow, yeah...when starting that thread I certainly didn't expect that kind of witch hunt.

[BYU 14]

Wow, somebody has an issue with Jim there :(

[Izulde]

Hmm. Phillies_80 over there is on that witchhunt.

Philliesfan980, who is in the Penalty Box, is viewing this thread.

Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[Logan]

I seem to recall a guy with "Phillies" and "80" in his handle taking shots at Jim here...

[Izulde]

I seem to recall a guy with "Phillies" and "80" in his handle taking shots at Jim here...

Me too.

[Logan]

He edited the offending posts, but one stuck around within a quote by Marmel. He's since been boxed.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - 2012 Election Result Analysis (http://operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=2740162&postcount=89)

So yeah man, if you're following Jim's project around to different boards just to shit on it, go get some help.

[Ben E Lou]

Yes, this is the same dude.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. He deleted the ugliest stuff.

[PilotMan]

It's just me. If I had a team behind me, social networking would be in someone's purview. Definitely not mine. I find I really don't have a lot to say to promote my products. I'd rather let people see what's out there and let them make their own decisions. What I do appeals to people who have a lot of imagination and don't need to be led. It will never sizzle or pop. I don't sizzle and pop, or even crackle a little. I care much more about replay value. I've always thought that, in time, customers will find me. My products are more evergreens, as the sales world terms them, than trendy and flashy. That's worked pretty well for me. It might not be an ideal paradigm for kickstarter-ing a completely new project, however.


I get that. I've been around here for years, but you're right when you mention the project. You are taking advantage of the kickstarter platform for some fund raising, and while that is great you are failing to drive interest in your product by missing out on one of the easiest, and cheapest ways to drive people to your product, and drive your business. When I see that part below your profile that says "Has not connected Facebook" it sticks out like a sore thumb. It shouldn't take much legwork at all, and the beauty of FB is that it allows for a place like FOFC for people to gather and communicate, and it's completely in the mainstream. On top of that, you can control what is on there.

Hell, there's already a link to it, you just need to own it!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Front-Office-Football/108251345863280?ref=ts&fref=ts

[Flasch186]

It's just me. If I had a team behind me, social networking would be in someone's purview. Definitely not mine. I find I really don't have a lot to say to promote my products. I'd rather let people see what's out there and let them make their own decisions. What I do appeals to people who have a lot of imagination and don't need to be led. It will never sizzle or pop. I don't sizzle and pop, or even crackle a little. I care much more about replay value. I've always thought that, in time, customers will find me. My products are more evergreens, as the sales world terms them, than trendy and flashy. That's worked pretty well for me. It might not be an ideal paradigm for kickstarter-ing a completely new project, however.

But it can. When you invent something great and you focus on what you do well but you know that there's a market for adding a little sizzle, go get the guy or girl who sizzles and enlist their help to make your invention better. Its not a slight or makes your product unworthy but it should also be considered as taking your invention and making it better. Thus you wont look back someday and say if only I wouldve done X, Y, or Z. Get Cuervo or some people (who Im volunteering without asking) to draw up some prototype bonus cards and see what you think... The influx of new buyers might help you fund a second iteration more easily.

[kcchief19]

Good luck, Jim. I hope it's a success!

There is a time in my life when I would have been all over this, but it's not something I have a deep interest in at this time. I'll likely kick in a small amount because I've gotten more enjoyment from Jim's products than I've paid him in the past, and I'd like to see his future work.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a market for this out there doesn't appreciate the diversity out there. Jim's biggest roadblock to reaching the goal is simply exposure. While I'm not a tabletop or card gamer, there are a lot of people that are out there.

I really don't get the people dismissing this because they have no interest in it and don't understand how someone else could. I know no one who watches the Kardashians and have no idea why someone would, but they are flippin' millionaires on every third magazine and TV show.

[Danny]

Good luck, Jim. I hope it's a success!

There is a time in my life when I would have been all over this, but it's not something I have a deep interest in at this time. I'll likely kick in a small amount because I've gotten more enjoyment from Jim's products than I've paid him in the past, and I'd like to see his future work.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a market for this out there doesn't appreciate the diversity out there. Jim's biggest roadblock to reaching the goal is simply exposure. While I'm not a tabletop or card gamer, there are a lot of people that are out there.

I really don't get the people dismissing this because they have no interest in it and don't understand how someone else could. I know no one who watches the Kardashians and have no idea why someone would, but they are flippin' millionaires on every third magazine and TV show.

I am basing my thoughts on being a regular follower of kickstart board, card and tabletop games, not on my own interest. There are certain kinds of products with certain traits which have a lot of success and traits of projects that do not. I am just trying to be honest about what I see. I hope I am proven wrong.

[miked]

It's just me. If I had a team behind me, social networking would be in someone's purview. Definitely not mine. I find I really don't have a lot to say to promote my products. I'd rather let people see what's out there and let them make their own decisions. What I do appeals to people who have a lot of imagination and don't need to be led. It will never sizzle or pop. I don't sizzle and pop, or even crackle a little. I care much more about replay value. I've always thought that, in time, customers will find me. My products are more evergreens, as the sales world terms them, than trendy and flashy. That's worked pretty well for me. It might not be an ideal paradigm for kickstarter-ing a completely new project, however.


That's pretty lame. If you want money for it and you want people to get excited about it, you need to actually promote it. Especially since it seems the vast number of people who love FOF aren't into it.

[molson]

Philliesfan980 is a creepy dude.

[Blackadar]

Philliesfan980 is a creepy dude.

Don't insult my sockpuppet login!

Whoops.

[Passacaglia]

Philliesfan980 is a creepy dude.

How so? Maybe I missed some deleted stuff.

[DaddyTorgo]

How so? Maybe I missed some deleted stuff.

He went bonkers on Jim in the elections prediction thread that Jim started (like over-the-top-personal bonkers), and it looks like there were 3 deleted posts of his in that thread in the other forum that was linked above - I can only imagine what was in them.

[Ben E Lou]

How so? Maybe I missed some deleted stuff.I wish I'd taken a screen shot. Didn't anticipate him deleting all of it. He took multiple personal shots at Jim, and tried to run down FOF, Solecismic Software, you name it. Probably the worst of it was along the lines of "All of you should beware. Jim will keep your money and won't deliver the game."

[molson]

And this vendetta is all over interpretations of polling data.

[JPhillips]

I've never understood the idea that Jim, or any developer, owes the world a new game. I'd love a new FOF or TCY, but Jim can do whatever he pleases. People shouldn't get that invested in a single product.

[Ben E Lou]

And this vendetta is all over interpretations of polling data.I've never understood the idea that Jim, or any developer, owes the world a new game. I'd love a new FOF or TCY, but Jim can do whatever he pleases. People shouldn't get that invested in a single product.Yeah...I got the impression that the polling stuff was just the trigger. My guess is that the disagreement there brought out anger he had at Jim over something FOF or TCY related to the forefront. The attack in the polling thread ultimately seemed to be about "you are making a board game and I want you to make another FOF/TCY, you asshole." I'd say this vendetta is all over a computer game. *shurg*

[molson]

Ya, that's probably it. Either way, intentionally trying to hurt someone's livelihood over a grudge is pretty low.

[Passacaglia]

Probably a combination. Like, this guy who's not giving me the game I want has the audacity to also have other interests besides making the game I want.

[Ben E Lou]

Either way, intentionally trying to hurt someone's livelihood over a grudge is <s>pretty</s> extremely low.Fixed. ;)

[Ben E Lou]

Probably a combination. Like, this guy who's not giving me the game I want has the audacity to also have other interests besides making the game I want.Fair point.

[Passacaglia]

So, what seems to be missing to me in the game is personality. Maybe this goes hand-in-hand with career mode, I don't know. But, so, okay, New England has some team-specific plays, great, that's supposed to make them more New-England-y. But, in what way? Can my opponent get that flavor by looking at the play cards? Is "Pass Y8" going to have some kind of meaning? I think that the lack of actual players in the game is what hurts here. If Pass Y8 is a dangerous play, it should be because of the personnel that run it, not because of the play itself.

But who knows, maybe familiarity with the cards will bring about that personality. And maybe the cards can be mixed, and moved around in some way to simulate player movement, creating a career mode in a sense.

[Solecismic]

I get that. I've been around here for years, but you're right when you mention the project. You are taking advantage of the kickstarter platform for some fund raising, and while that is great you are failing to drive interest in your product by missing out on one of the easiest, and cheapest ways to drive people to your product, and drive your business. When I see that part below your profile that says "Has not connected Facebook" it sticks out like a sore thumb. It shouldn't take much legwork at all, and the beauty of FB is that it allows for a place like FOFC for people to gather and communicate, and it's completely in the mainstream. On top of that, you can control what is on there.

Hell, there's already a link to it, you just need to own it!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Front-Office-Football/108251345863280?ref=ts&fref=ts

I have a Front Office Football page on my facebook, but I've never done anything with it. How would I own this one?

No idea who PhilliesFan is. I was surprised by the election item anger, and even more surprised by yesterday's posts. Kinda sucks to have someone so mad at you that he's willing to go out of his way to harm you, and have no idea why. I've never taken a cent of anyone's money without doing my best to ensure he receives what he expects.

[Solecismic]

So, what seems to be missing to me in the game is personality. Maybe this goes hand-in-hand with career mode, I don't know. But, so, okay, New England has some team-specific plays, great, that's supposed to make them more New-England-y. But, in what way? Can my opponent get that flavor by looking at the play cards? Is "Pass Y8" going to have some kind of meaning? I think that the lack of actual players in the game is what hurts here. If Pass Y8 is a dangerous play, it should be because of the personnel that run it, not because of the play itself.

But who knows, maybe familiarity with the cards will bring about that personality. And maybe the cards can be mixed, and moved around in some way to simulate player movement, creating a career mode in a sense.

The idea is that with more downfield passing to the tight ends, New England has strategies available that are difficult to defend. The basic cards provide a league-average offense. The team-specific cards, which will comprise 30% of an offense and 30% of a defense, are all where that team varies from the average.

With a MtG card distribution (which would require multiple copies of cards, and thus less-varied playbooks), you could have a lot of extra personality, but the game would produce less realistic results. A big part of what a team is in football is not its ability to produce alone, but what it produces given its play choices. A team that throws 9s 20 times a game will immediately find defenses taking that option away.

What I hope is unique about this game is the playbook construction and play-calling mechanism, which gives you a measure of control, but also simulates (rather artificially) how defenses adjust to what you're doing. Hence the hand limits. When I was testing this game, it felt unique, like I was having a different kind of sports sim experience. I'm not trying to recreate what Strat does so well, or even what FOF does.

[PilotMan]

I have a Front Office Football page on my facebook, but I've never done anything with it. How would I own this one?



You have to Create the Page. I would do one for both your Company and your Products. On the home page, mid screen, right side you'll see the Facebook copyright. Below that is Language, privacy, terms, cookies, and More. Click on the More and go to create page. From there you can create for both your Company and your products on different pages.

Then the rest is up to you my friend.

[tarcone]

There's a link to the rules on the KS page.

Thanks. I found it.

Jim, Im sure you dont care, but wanting people to "find your product" isnt going to get you $42,066 in 25 days.
If you truly believe in this, you need to be promoting it.
I have been following this thread and the one over at BGG. And what Im seeing is that people want you to sell them on it.
If this is just a side project that you dont really care if it gets printed or not, then enjoy playing it with your buddies. But if you want to produce it for us, sell it.

Is there any thought of a solo variant?
Im sure it would be as easy as Placing the opposing teams cards face down and drawing them, then rolling for them. Is that what you think a solo variant would or should be?

[Marc Vaughan]

I have a Front Office Football page on my facebook, but I've never done anything with it. How would I own this one?
Take a look at the Football Manager Handheld facebook page (its not official but shows what can be done with such a page) ...

https://www.facebook.com/fmhandheld

[MajikMan77]

I also wish Jim well on this project, its not something I'm personally interested in (I'd have nobody to play with) and sadly reading about it being basically limited to US only for postal cost reasons (which is kinda understandable) further reduces any likelyhood I'd toss a donation.

To be honest, I'd be willing to chip in if it meant a new patch or better for FoF but thats something else entirely.

[Solecismic]

Thanks. I found it.

Jim, Im sure you dont care, but wanting people to "find your product" isnt going to get you $42,066 in 25 days.
If you truly believe in this, you need to be promoting it.
I have been following this thread and the one over at BGG. And what Im seeing is that people want you to sell them on it.
If this is just a side project that you dont really care if it gets printed or not, then enjoy playing it with your buddies. But if you want to produce it for us, sell it.

Is there any thought of a solo variant?
Im sure it would be as easy as Placing the opposing teams cards face down and drawing them, then rolling for them. Is that what you think a solo variant would or should be?

I care. When you run everything yourself, there's always 100 more things you wish you had time for. I thought I put the right irons out there, it honestly never occurred to me people would care whether I had a product facebook page. It's hard to get real publicity, though I have gotten a lot of traffic on my web site. So it seems more a matter of trying to publicize a product not a lot of people want. And, unfortunately, a miscalculation on some of the more national-level contacts I thought I could turn to help publicize. Probably for the same reason. This is a completely new market for me.

I've responded a couple of times on the BGG item, hopefully in the right tenor. I don't think this type of product, like my computer games, warrants a hard sell.

Yes, I've put a lot of thought into a solo variant. It's a little more than drawing cards, because you need a realistic offense. Instead of hands, you separate the offensive playbook into piles based on type of play, then there's a table you roll against that takes the situation and chooses a pile. On defense, it's based on situation and the offensive personnel and there are fewer piles. This would be on the web site as well. There's also a solo variant where you're running the offense and drawing cards for the defense based on personnel.

[jbergey22]

I am going to pledge not because I am particularly interested in this game but I believe in Jim.

I really wish you would put this energy back into your computer games where I think you can make the money you deserve for having this creative mind. Board games were popular back when people didnt have 300 options of TV, internet, and so many other things going on. It filled a need when options werent available. I think you are fighting an uphill battle and wish you the best of luck.

[Danny]

I am going to pledge not because I am particularly interested in this game but I believe in Jim.

I really wish you would put this energy back into your computer games where I think you can make the money you deserve for having this creative mind. Board games were popular back when people didnt have 300 options of TV, internet, and so many other things going on. It filled a need when options werent available. I think you are fighting an uphill battle and wish you the best of luck.

Actually non mainstream board games are at an all time high overall. Even games like settlers, carc and quite a few others are appearing at b&n, target and toys r us

[jbergey22]

Actually non mainstream board games are at an all time high overall. Even games like settlers, carc and quite a few others are appearing at b&n, target and toys r us

I guess I wasnt aware of this. Which demographic is buying games at this rate? The children that Im around dont seem very interested in board games and the younger adult crowds seem like they are too busy on their smart phones to care about anything else.

[JonInMiddleGA]

though I have gotten a lot of traffic on my web site.

Are you doing your due diligence on monitoring the analytics of that traffic? Lots can be learned from that, even at some of the most basic levels. You're a data guy so I'm guessing that's a no-brainer, but seemed worth asking.

[Danny]

I guess I wasnt aware of this. Which demographic is buying games at this rate? The children that Im around dont seem very interested in board games and the younger adult crowds seem like they are too busy on their smart phones to care about anything else.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a niche, it's just a pretty thriving one is all. Those who are into it are really into it and sustain the hobby pretty well. However, it is becoming more mass market. I do think this is largely dependent on area, but it's not uncommon for a random person to have played Settlers of Catan before. Other games like Dominion, Small World and others are becoming pretty main stream as well. Even in the small town I live in, a video game store was advertising on the radio that they also carry games like Settlers, Small World and a couple others.

Also, MTG and Warhammer miniatures are huge among the slightly to heavily nerdy youth and adults. Sometimes these can lead to someone finding interest in other games as well.

[Danny]

And just to put out sales, Settlers of Catan and it's various versions have sold over 15 million copies. Certainly nothing compared to the top selling video games, but still a solid niche.

And just to show how mainstream magic the gathering is, one of the charter schools at the district I work for, has a class on it.

[PadresFan104]

Don't get me wrong, it's still a niche, it's just a pretty thriving one is all. Those who are into it are really into it and sustain the hobby pretty well. However, it is becoming more mass market. I do think this is largely dependent on area, but it's not uncommon for a random person to have played Settlers of Catan before. Other games like Dominion, Small World and others are becoming pretty main stream as well. Even in the small town I live in, a video game store was advertising on the radio that they also carry games like Settlers, Small World and a couple others.

Also, MTG and Warhammer miniatures are huge among the slightly to heavily nerdy youth and adults. Sometimes these can lead to someone finding interest in other games as well.

Great points. Oh, and I would love a football game with the aesthetic appeal and addictive gameplay of Dominion. I love that game... It's dissapointing to read that Jim doesn't see the need for his game to be as flashy in the artwork department.

[cuervo72]

And just to put out sales, Settlers of Catan and it's various versions have sold over 15 million copies. Certainly nothing compared to the top selling video games, but still a solid niche.

And just to show how mainstream magic the gathering is, one of the charter schools at the district I work for, has a class on it.

Is that domestic, or worldwide (game being German and all)?

Speaking of Magic...looks like my son and I (daughter too, maybe) are getting back to playing Pokeomon TCG. I know I suggested in a past thread that maybe Jim would think about going in that direction. It occurred to me to check to see if there was a card version of Blood Bowl, and sure enough, there is (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/90137/blood-bowl-team-manager-the-card-game). I realize it's a different dynamic than what Jim is going for (more stats oriented), but it sounds at least a bit interesting.

[Danny]

Blood Bowl is a good game. You basically have a center row of cards and are playing your players to those cards on your side in an attempt to win that card (which are game highlights). Almost a more complex version of battle line. It plays well though and has a fun theme, takes about an hour to play.

[KWhit]

Great points. Oh, and I would love a football game with the aesthetic appeal and addictive gameplay of Dominion. I love that game... It's dissapointing to read that Jim doesn't see the need for his game to be as flashy in the artwork department.

Yep. Artwork matters a great deal. In fact Three Moves Ahead recently did a podcast about exactly this type of thing. The quality of a game's components make a big difference to one's experience playing the game.

[Barkeep49]

I'll just echo that if Jim is serious about this game I would recommend an iOS version. I could never find anyone to play this in person (and this despite offering a class on Board Games at my school) but would enjoy it on my iPad. Seems like a way to get around the printing cost, since there's not a huge cost to having all those cards in an electronic form.

[Senator]

Doesn't look like it will reach the goal, but to help it along, I will pledge 120.

[Vince, Pt. II]

:withstupid:

[CU Tiger]

+1 on wishing Jim the best of luck.

Did anyone else note the thread starter...this is their only post yet they knew to come here?

hrmmm...

BTW, Jim on the marketing philosophy I truly appreciate your soft sell, but will add if you dont believe in it enough to think its great and will improve my life, I probably wont either.

[Solecismic]

Doesn't look like it will reach the goal, but to help it along, I will pledge 120.

I really appreciate your support. Yes, it appears the game will never be made, but it was a nice experience getting something completely new ready for publication and I felt confident it was a quality product that many football fans would enjoy.

Did anyone else note the thread starter...this is their only post yet they knew to come here?

hrmmm...

I wondered about that myself. It was up very quickly after I launched the Kickstarter. And, of course, a lot of you know by now I always launch in the dead of night.

But no, it wasn't me. I don't see the value of having a second account here - for one, why shouldn't announcements come from me directly, and two, if I use it for anything else, that's something that could easily backfire quite badly.

BTW, Jim on the marketing philosophy I truly appreciate your soft sell, but will add if you dont believe in it enough to think its great and will improve my life, I probably wont either.

I feel too close to my work to tell you if it's great. If I sell something, it's because I feel confident it's a product I would enjoy myself. I stand behind what I produce. This is a huge leap for me, going from PC games to a card game. I underestimated the size of that leap.

So it took a lot of extra work to get it where I liked it. And then playtesting revealed game flaws, so I took more time to adjust the concept to a place where it still had what I bring to the genre (statistical integrity, a sense of football strategy) and what I wanted to accomplish with the game (bringing a new dynamic of game play that captures the spirit of what coordinators and coaches do) and was accessible in terms of game time and play resolution.

But to tell you it will improve your life? That's not me. I'm not marketing a cancer drug or even something simple like a bouquet of roses that will brighten your wife's day. It is what it is, and my view of how a game should be marketed is to simply provide accurate information about it. Unfortunately, I can't advertise. And my attempts to get people who could provide a meaningful boost in terms of word-of-mouth weren't all successful.

The bottom line is that I had to provide a new product that captured the market I've already established. And it only does to a limited extent.

My style is to provide clean, useful graphics that don't take up so much room that I have to sacrifice *any* utility. With the PC game, that worked quite nicely in 1998, and has for more than ten years. With a modern card game, maybe not so much. I don't think the graphics are "poor", but it's not economically feasible to hire an artist to create unique card artwork rather than my diagrams. And if someone can do that for me, to be viable, it requires enough time to do it well that I ethically should be paying for that time.

That's a long answer just to say I believe in my work. And I also believe that a good product that has complexity eventually sells itself through design, and the best long-term marketing strategy is low-key honesty. I don't do short-term well, and that's not ideal for the Kickstarter model. If it fails to fund, I have to accept the blame and figure out what is next. Certainly I appreciate your positive wishes, along with all of you who expressed that sentiment without pre-ordering.

Though I do wish there was something special I could do for those of you who would like this product and probably will never see it (reiterating, of course, that no money changes hands when a Kickstarter project doesn't receive full funding).

[CU Tiger]

Jim,
Please don't mistake this, I think you have a brilliant statistical vision, and a unique perspective on football. But I think I may have just stumbled upon a big business flaw.

No one will ever value your worth more than you do. Ever.

No your game will not cure cancer, but if I take my valuable and scarce time and grant it your product for my entertainment, you can bet your ass I do it because I want to escape reality, provide my self some entertainment and refresh and recharge my batteries. Thus, if you sell entertainment you most certainy improve people's (quality of) lives. if you take your self any less serious than that you are selling yourself short.

Your games are great, heck I even bought the up the river game and never tried to play it. I bought it completely out of support for you and in appreciation for the hours of pleasure I had received from your other products.

I wish I could convince you that what you think, is less important than what your customers think, in regards to marketing, presentation and packaging. It's one of the first rules of marketing, what you think your customers like isnt important. But you're very intelligent, you know these things.

Any way I wish you tremendous success, and hope we see a card footballl game AND a future computer game revision. I'll buy both.

[Young Drachma]

Though I do wish there was something special I could do for those of you who would like this product and probably will never see it (reiterating, of course, that no money changes hands when a Kickstarter project doesn't receive full funding).

Why not a "kickstarter" for an FOF6.5 for $15 or FOF7? I know you can't actually kickstarter an existing project, but the sentiment remains the same and I think you'd have a long line of people who'd support that.

[cubboyroy1826]

Why not a "kickstarter" for an FOF6.5 for $15 or FOF7? I know you can't actually kickstarter an existing project, but the sentiment remains the same and I think you'd have a long line of people who'd support that.

I had the same thought. I am sure a kickstarter for a new FOF computer game would do well. While I love the football card game idea I just do not have the time to sit down and play nor do I have the friends that would sit down and play. PurdueBrad and I have played a couple tabletop football games but the key is getting enough people to make it a league, which has been almost impossible.

[Senator]

Though I do wish there was something special I could do for those of you who would like this product and probably will never see it (reiterating, of course, that no money changes hands when a Kickstarter project doesn't receive full funding).

Let me know if you decide to offer anything for those of us who want to play this. I will disregard what you have in parenthesis.

[TroyF]

I had the same thought. I am sure a kickstarter for a new FOF computer game would do well. While I love the football card game idea I just do not have the time to sit down and play nor do I have the friends that would sit down and play. PurdueBrad and I have played a couple tabletop football games but the key is getting enough people to make it a league, which has been almost impossible.

Too bad they cannot be combined. A new FOF, TCY and card game. Even without playing the card game, I'd throw 200 to 250 at it. Hell, I'd have thrown 60 at the table top game if it were close to hitting the goal.

Even though I would not be playing the game, I really wish it had been funded. I have no doubt it would have been a great game. Bummer. :(

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Too bad they cannot be combined. A new FOF, TCY and card game. Even without playing the card game, I'd throw 200 to 250 at it. Hell, I'd have thrown 60 at the table top game if it were close to hitting the goal.

Even though I would not be playing the game, I really wish it had been funded. I have no doubt it would have been a great game. Bummer. :(

TCY2 kickstarter, I'd throw in 500 or so on that.

[BYU 14]

TCY2 kickstarter, I'd throw in 500 or so on that.

I'd be good for a couple of hundred on that as well.

[Izulde]

I don't have the money to throw triple digits on a TCY2, but I'd throw some cash on it, yes.

[Zeniazd]

+1 on wishing Jim the best of luck.

Did anyone else note the thread starter...this is their only post yet they knew to come here?

hrmmm...


Nothing sinister involved. I haven't been back to this website in years, and that was a couple of emails (and lost credentials) ago. When I saw the KS project, I figured people here would be interested, so I just created a new account.

Actually, I was a little surprised that there wasn't a thread here already.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the project will fund - KS isn't really a good fit with low-key, I'm afraid. It can work if you're only looking for a couple of hundred (or a few thousand) dollars, but once you get above that, it really is a marketing exercise.

[tarcone]

Nothing sinister involved. I haven't been back to this website in years, and that was a couple of emails (and lost credentials) ago. When I saw the KS project, I figured people here would be interested, so I just created a new account.

Actually, I was a little surprised that there wasn't a thread here already.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the project will fund - KS isn't really a good fit with low-key, I'm afraid. It can work if you're only looking for a couple of hundred (or a few thousand) dollars, but once you get above that, it really is a marketing exercise.

Yes. It is an exercise in marketing. But Jim not posting a video didnt help. A video showing some game play would have done a lot I think.
Also, BGG has a Press Release section. That would be a great place to announce it. Might get a couple more looks.

I just saw a company in the press release section that released a new sports game. Posted a link. Guess where I went? And their web site is much less interesting and cool as Jims.

Little things might help. But Im not sure. I do know that the last 3 days of most KS projects get massive bumps in funding. So there is hope. If Jim gets aggressive.

Maybe Jim could get a couple of his play testers to do a video and post it for him.

I think this would be a cool game. But as you said, KS projects need marketing.

[Zeniazd]

Yes. It is an exercise in marketing. But Jim not posting a video didnt help. A video showing some game play would have done a lot I think.
Also, BGG has a Press Release section. That would be a great place to announce it. Might get a couple more looks.

I just saw a company in the press release section that released a new sports game. Posted a link. Guess where I went? And their web site is much less interesting and cool as Jims.

Little things might help. But Im not sure. I do know that the last 3 days of most KS projects get massive bumps in funding. So there is hope. If Jim gets aggressive.

Maybe Jim could get a couple of his play testers to do a video and post it for him.

I think this would be a cool game. But as you said, KS projects need marketing.

I get the impression that Jim doesn't feel comfortable with all the marketing stuff, but if he wanted to make a big push, he'd probably be better served to cancel the existing project, do some press/demo/buildup, and relaunch the project in a couple of months.

[Autumn]

Yes. It is an exercise in marketing. But Jim not posting a video didnt help. A video showing some game play would have done a lot I think.
Also, BGG has a Press Release section. That would be a great place to announce it. Might get a couple more looks.

Someone in one of my classes did a research project on Kickstarter, and they found that the number one factor in getting your project funded is having a video. The number two factor was having a good video.

[Zeniazd]

With no desire to be confrontational, I think that sounds overly simplistic.

An alternate point of view:

Why (some) Kickstarter campaigns fail - The Domino Project (http://www.thedominoproject.com/2012/06/why-kickstarter-campaigns-fail.html)


Kickstarter campaigns fail when the tribe of people who believe in the idea is too small

It’s worth taking a moment to parse that out–it will help you understand how the whole thing works and where some campaigns fail. You either need more belief or a bigger/louder/more influential tribe.

Kickstarter appears to be a great way to find fans for your work. You put up a great video clip and a story and wait for people who will love it to find you.
But that’s not what happens. What happens is that people who ALREADY have a tribe, like Amanda Palmer, use Kickstarter to organize and activate that tribe. Kickstarter is the last step, not the first one.

[tarcone]

I went to BGG and searched forums for what makes a successful KS project.
Here are some links:

From a game designer:

The Kickstarter Conundrum | BoardGameGeek | BoardGameGeek (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9890789#9890789)

This might interest Jim

Entrepreneurship in Tabletop Gaming - Academic Essay | BoardGameGeek | BoardGameGeek (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10446265#10446265)

Tips for Kickstarter Success

Tips for Kickstarter success | BoardGameGeek | BoardGameGeek (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9975081#9975081)

[Young Drachma]

Seems fitting in a random sort of way.

Secrets of successful yoga studios, and tactics to examine ideas that suck | Penelope Trunk Blog (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2012/11/27/secrets-of-successful-yoga-studios-and-other-ways-to-think-of-ideas-that-suck/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20BrazenCareerist%20(Penelope%20Trunk))

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't understand why we couldn't kickstarter a FOF?

There are other video games on there that are sequels - what makes them any different from a sequal to FOF?

[digamma]

Actually, I was a little surprised that there wasn't a thread here already.


There is/was a thread already in the FOF forum.

[Pyser]

I don't understand why we couldn't kickstarter a FOF?

There are other video games on there that are sequels - what makes them any different from a sequal to FOF?

you mean like this? A Solecismic Kickstarter? - Front Office Football Central (http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=83416&highlight=kickstarter)

[Zeniazd]

I don't understand why we couldn't kickstarter a FOF?

There are other video games on there that are sequels - what makes them any different from a sequal to FOF?

I'm not sure where the idea is coming from that a sequel can't be funded on KS. As you've said, it's just not true. In fact, most of the really successful projects are either direct or spiritual sequels.

However, I'm not sure an updated version would qualify. Obviously there's a lot of 'eye of the beholder' involved in how many changes before an update becomes a sequel...

Finally, there's the small sticking point that Jim has to want to do it. As I've said, I've been away, but I never thought it was the lack of funding keeping Jim from making a new FOF.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not sure where the idea is coming from that a sequel can't be funded on KS. As you've said, it's just not true. In fact, most of the really successful projects are either direct or spiritual sequels.

However, I'm not sure an updated version would qualify. Obviously there's a lot of 'eye of the beholder' involved in how many changes before an update becomes a sequel...

Finally, there's the small sticking point that Jim has to want to do it. As I've said, I've been away, but I never thought it was the lack of funding keeping Jim from making a new FOF.

I dunno - I thought someone alluded to that before and I was confused. But yes...Jim would obviously have to do it.

[samifan24]

I would absolutely back a new FOF or TCY game and I think such a game would easily exceed its funding goals very quickly. The card game sounds like a neat idea but I'm just not sure the audience is there, especially with the audience that Kickstarter typically draws. Sure, plenty of card or board games have have successful Kickstarter campaigns but I believe a FOF video game would be far more successful.

It's a shame that Kickstarter users cannot create projects on their own and then pledge funds to them as a way to show a developer, like Jim, how much financial support we'd throw behind a new FOF or TCY game. Granted money isn't everything but I'm sure the interest is there from this group and many others.

[Tim Tellean]

Yes. It is an exercise in marketing. But Jim not posting a video didnt help. A video showing some game play would have done a lot I think.
Also, BGG has a Press Release section. That would be a great place to announce it. Might get a couple more looks.

I just saw a company in the press release section that released a new sports game. Posted a link. Guess where I went? And their web site is much less interesting and cool as Jims.

Little things might help. But Im not sure. I do know that the last 3 days of most KS projects get massive bumps in funding. So there is hope. If Jim gets aggressive.

Maybe Jim could get a couple of his play testers to do a video and post it for him.

I think this would be a cool game. But as you said, KS projects need marketing.

I'm guessing the press release and site were mine.
Basketball Bones by PT Games.
Funny you said a less interesting website since I follow Jim's model of minimal visual intrusion.
No harm or foul taken on my part. Glad to see you came, hopefully next week when the game is released you visit once again. :)

Sorry to divert the thread from lamenting Jim's marketing shortcomings. I will say as a guy in the boardgame marketplace as a distributor for 10 years, it is a tough place to be, small margins, and markets, exposure is very tough to come by.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry to divert the thread from lamenting Jim's marketing shortcomings. I will say as a guy in the boardgame marketplace as a distributor for 10 years, it is a tough place to be, small margins, and markets, exposure is very tough to come by.

I'm going to jump in here for a moment as well -- not to lament anybody's marketing strategy -- but to throw in something that hits me as generically true for a lot of situations.

The money required to do a significant amount of marketing - even in the very narrow confines of "the boardgame marketplace - is money that often either doesn't exist or could be just as well spent on the product(s) itself.

The small margins and small market that Tim referred to means that the opportunity for ROI can be pretty limited. While it's great to see stuff we like getting some hype, we also have to keep the return on investment potential in mind. I think that occasionally gets forgotten in discussions (not necessarily this one) about what we wish this company or that company would do, it's easier to spend other people's money sometimes ;)

(FWIW, I'm thinking more in terms of existing products here, not Kickstarter campaigns, just extending the marketing angle a bit)

[Young Drachma]

The Untold Story Behind Kickstarter Stats [INFOGRAPHIC] | Appsblogger.com (http://www.appsblogger.com/behind-kickstarter-crowdfunding-stats/)

Kickstarter campaigns fail when the tribe of people who believe in the idea is too small.

Popularity matters. Just look at Seth’s Kickstarter project. Within 3 hours of launching his project, Seth already met his goal of $40,000. His project has now been successfully funded for $287,342, over 7x his goal.

So how do we determine popularity? Well, Kickstarter enables you to link your Facebook account to your project. And we determine your popularity by that most powerful of indicators: how many Facebook friends you have. Of course, I say that in jest, but your online social network is a pretty good indicator of your reach.

When Prof. Mollick looked into the data, he found that for every order of magnitude increase in Facebook friends: from 10 to 100 and from 100 to 1,000, the chance of a project succeeding increases hugely.

For that $10K project, holding everything else constant, if you had 10 Facebook friends, you would only have a 9% chance of succeeding. If you had 100 Facebook friends, your chance jumps to 20%. And if you have 1,000 Facebook friends? Your chance of succeeding is now 40%. Ah…the power of Facebook Friends of Founders (thanks to Prof. Mollick for this great alliteration).

As Seth said, “Kickstarter is the last step, not the first one.” Kickstarter is not a way for you to attract attention to your project. It is a way to “organize and activate [your] tribe”. But you have to build your tribe first.

Kickstarter is just a platform to present your project. But if you don’t already have a tribe or a way to get the word out to the masses (through media coverage), it will just be hidden amongst the thousands of other projects vying for attention.

[tarcone]

I'm guessing the press release and site were mine.
Basketball Bones by PT Games.
Funny you said a less interesting website since I follow Jim's model of minimal visual intrusion.
No harm or foul taken on my part. Glad to see you came, hopefully next week when the game is released you visit once again. :)

Sorry to divert the thread from lamenting Jim's marketing shortcomings. I will say as a guy in the boardgame marketplace as a distributor for 10 years, it is a tough place to be, small margins, and markets, exposure is very tough to come by.

I guess visually is what I meant. The white background of your site was not very pleasing to me. Sorry.

But yes, Your games do look interesting and Im sure I will be back.

[PilotMan]

I'm going to bump this and ask the few people who have gotten it how they liked it? I actually found a purchase link here:

Front Office Football: The Card Game (https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/front-office-football:-the-card-game)

and this pic of the game

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/fd/94/a7/fd94a7015b01ea20fc6334e2a47f7698.jpg

I like head to head coaching stuff like this and I wanted to know if it was something I should ask for Christmas.

[cartman]

I thought he never released it????

:confused:

[jbergey22]

I thought he never released it????

:confused:

It didnt get enough support from kickstarter but he released a private version I do believe for those that wanted it.

[CraigSca]

Yeah, he's selling it at something like 30 cents above cost.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

This is my review from a couple of months ago:


Finally played the game!

I have to say the mechanism that Jim created as to how the dice and offense and defense cards all work together is quite remarkable. There definitely was a bit of a learning curve (the directions could stand a rewrite IMHO) but once I understood the flow of how the game worked, I was able to get results quickly and easily.

Also, and I can't stress how important this is. You can look at a card at a glance and know if it is a card that is effective or not. It made me think of the APBA days, when I could cover up the player's name but look at the numbers on hsi card and I could immediately tell if he was good or not. Jim definitely captured that feeling, which isn't easy.

The way the game is supposed to be played is that each player builds a deck and from that deck you draw a hand of 8 cards. However, there are certain cards that are just money plays. Green Bay has this one pass play for instance that is basically unstoppable. Given how the game is supposed to be played, this card wouldn't be a show stopper because you would only have access to it maybe once or twice a game.

However, I prefer a game where I have access to all my offensive cards at once and based on what the defense does, I do well or I don't. So the way I am going to play the game is take out all the money plays, have each team pick out 20 plays or so on offense around ten plays or so on defense and just play with that deck the whole game. I feel like it works better that way.

I am glad I got the game. It does involve a lot of setup (the game came with all the cards unorganized unfortunately). But I do think there is a payoff at the end. So far I have tweaked the playbook settings and the way quarters work. With these tweaks, I think this plays a great game of football.

However , I haven't played it much since the review.

[SegRat]

I have it and happy I bought it.

[ColtCrazy]

For those that have it, can you do it in solitaire form? If so, it'll go to the top of my list. I know a ton of gamers locally, but none that enjoy sports sims like I do so it'll only be worth it if I could play it solo.

[Desnudo]

Put it on the iPad please. I know it's not your passion but FOFC was tailor made for touch and mobile is the now and the future.

[Danny]

I would definitely buy and play an Ipad version of FOF