Week 12 NFL Thread - Thanks for Giving us three games on Thursday..

[SirFozzie]

Tripleheader on Thursday, with the Texans-Lions early, Redskins-Cowboys in the late afternoon slot, and Jets-Patriots as the thursday night game.

Sunday's key games include: Bears versus Vikings, in a key NFC Norris..er North divsion game, the Saints continuing attempts to pull themselves into playoff contention against the 49ers, and the Sunday night game between the Packers and Giants.

Monday night is the "Shattered Dreams" bowl game between the Eagles and the Panthers

[Passacaglia]

Jonathan Stewart Hates Jazz

[Honolulu_Blue]

The Lions look like they are in prime shape for another Thanksgiving Day stinker. They blew the game on Sunday against the Packers which essentially ended any kind of playoff hopes, starting LT Backus is likely to miss the first game of his career (he's a local whipping boy, but I think folks around here will get a rude wake-up call about just how steady he has been), Titus Young has been sent home for the week for conduct detrimental to the team and they are playing the 9-1 Houston Texans.

For the last several years Thanksgiving Day has just been humiliations galore for the Lions.

The last one the Lions won was in 2003 versus Favre and the Packers. I remember watching that game in a bar in Brussels. Dre Bly played well that day.

After that...

2004 - Peyton Manning destroys the Lions
2005 - Michael Vick destroys the Lions
2006 - A Joey Harrington led Dolphins team comes in and humiliates the Lions
2007 - Packers destroy the Lions
2008 - The Tennesee Titans and Chris Johnson obliderate the Lions
2009 - The Packers crush the Lions
2010 - The Lions sort of hang with the Patriots for the first half and then Tom Brady destroys the Lions (Alphonso Smith's career ended this day)
2011 - Packers beat the Lions in the "stomp" game

[Suburban Rhythm]

The Lions look like they are in prime shape for another Thanksgiving Day stinker. They blew the game on Sunday against the Packers which essentially ended any kind of playoff hopes, starting LT Backus is likely to miss the first game of his career (he's a local whipping boy, but I think folks around here will get a rude wake-up call about just how steady he has been), Titus Young has been sent home for the week for conduct detrimental to the team and they are playing the 9-1 Houston Texans.

For the last several years Thanksgiving Day has just been humiliations galore for the Lions.

The last one the Lions won was in 2003 versus Favre and the Packers. I remember watching that game in a bar in Brussels. Dry Bly played well that day.

After that...

2004 - Peyton Manning destroys the Lions
2005 - Michael Vick destroys the Lions
2006 - A Joey Harrington led Dolphins team comes in and humiliates the Lions
2007 - Packers destroy the Lions
2008 - The Tennesee Titans and Chris Johnson obliderate the Lions
2009 - The Packers crush the Lions
2010 - The Lions sort of hang with the Patriots for the first half and then Tom Brady destroys the Lions (Alphonso Smith's career ended this day)
2011 - Packers beat the Lions in the "stomp" game

Maybe Phil Luckett will guest referee the game?

[kingfc22]

Got to love delusional Cowboy fans.


Here's a sample from my fb feed:

NFC Power Rankings through week 12
1. Atlanta Falcons --
2. Dallas Cowboys +1
3. Chicago Bears -1
4. Green Bay Packers --
5. N.Y. Giants --
6. Seattle Seahawks --
7. San Francisco 49ers +1
8. New Orleans Saints -1
9. Tampa Bay Buccs +1
10. Minnesota Vikings -1

And his defense:

"strength of schedule, out playing opponents. if we got the forward progress call from ravens and if dez cut his fingernails against giants we would be 7-3. you wouldnt rank a 7-3 team in top 3?"

[Scoobz0202]

As a Cowboys fan the only thing that has me optimistic is their remaining schedule vs the Giants remaining schedule. No optimism comes from what I've seen on the field this season.

[Sun Tzu]

How would you rank the Bears 3rd and 49ers 7th?

Only a Cowboys fan...

[JediKooter]

And his defense:

"strength of schedule, out playing opponents. if we got the forward progress call from ravens and if dez cut his fingernails against giants we would be 7-3. you wouldnt rank a 7-3 team in top 3?"

That is too funny. And had the Chargers not lost 6 games this season, they'd be 10-0, so I'm going to rank them number 1.

[EagleFan]

If it wasn't for the fact that the Eagles sucked they would have won more games so I will rank them #1...

Monday night is going to be brutal...

[Bearcat729]

The Browns are handing out white flags for the Steelers game because apparently there are not enough things to laugh about with the team already.

http://i.imgur.com/szQxP.jpg

[Suburban Rhythm]

The Browns are handing out white flags for the Steelers game because apparently there are not enough things to laugh about with the team already.

http://i.imgur.com/szQxP.jpg

They are only trying to be helpful, and have plenty of items available to be used as bandages when another Steelers QB is injured.

[stevew]

More teams should use the instrumental star spangled banner. Sure beats the horribly arranged and over sung version

[stevew]

Leshoure Sr now. Sigh

[stevew]

Inadvertent touching of a punt turning it into a live ball is a sketchy rule.

[stevew]

Then they screw the lions on the replay review. So odd.

[Glengoyne]

It wouldn't have mattered in fact though because a lion touched the ball first.

Once that happens all bets were off, as far as whether or not it touched quin.


Once the kicking team touches the ball the receiving team can't fumble till they have controll of the ball.

Pretty tough to think they couldn't find a definitive view of it touching the guy though.

[larrymcg421]

What the hell was Coleman looking at on the replay? That ball was clearly touched.

[Glengoyne]

The only clear touch I saw was the lion reaching out to touch it. That actually made the rest not matter.

They didn't show the ball touch quin, which is what would be required to overturn the call. The rest of us can clearly infer the touch from the ball changing directions and the guys reaction, but the ref cant do that.

[stevew]

The TV replay work on that was shit

[stevew]

Jesus...that dropped INT will cost them 3-7 points

[Glengoyne]

Nice touchdown for Johnson there. As soon as the pass went up I thought it had INT written all over it, but I guess megaton isn't megaton for nothing.

[Glengoyne]

Suh earned that little montage of shame there.

[Hammer755]

I've always been a Suh apologist, but he's just a ridiculously dirty player.

[stevew]

Classic halftime booking. Performer who hasn't has a hit in 3-5 years singing a horrible song that nobody has ever heard.

[stevew]

Houston should cut block Suh on every play....that kick to Shaub's nuts was so dirty

[Grover]

Classic halftime booking. Performer who hasn't has a hit in 3-5 years singing a horrible song that nobody has ever heard.

Because Detroit doesn't have enough bad songs written about it.

[Bobble]

Nice touchdown for Johnson there. As soon as the pass went up I thought it had INT written all over it, but I guess megaton isn't megaton for nothing.

Megat*R*on. But megaton would be great for a huge D-lineman. Who do I submit that idea to?

I've always been a Suh apologist, but he's just a ridiculously dirty player.

I hate to hate my own players so I'm trying to think the best. I think he was trying to kick the QB in order to throw off the throw, rather than to injure anyone.

I don't like the direction this team is heading. Beginning to feel that Schwartz ain't the coach that can turn this into a disciplined, classy, winning team. Other opinions?

[jbergey22]

Stafford can look so good at times. I think he has poor fundamentals which is his biggest problem. Sometimes he looks like Drew Brees with his accuracy at other times he looks like Tim Tebow.

[fpres]

Beginning to feel that Schwartz ain't the coach that can turn this into a disciplined, classy, winning team. Other opinions?

As long as he turns them into a winning team, I suspect many fans won't care so much about the "disciplined" or "classy" part.

[frnk55]

Damn, he's down.

Lions got screwed.

[stevew]

That's fuckin horrible

[jbergey22]

That was a joke. Similar to replacement refs.

[stevew]

Kill these refs and whomever wrote the rules

[cougarfreak]

Why in the fuck is that not reviewable? That's atrocious...........if these were replacement referees, this is all I'd hear about for a goddamned month.

[stevew]

I have a sick feeling in my stomach from that play

[Abe Sargent]

Why was it not reviewable? I thought all scoring plays always are....

[cougarfreak]

That was a joke. Similar to replacement refs.

No, it's worse that replacements...........

[jbergey22]

WTF. It doesnt even get reviewed? For fucking stupid.

[Hammer755]

How is that play not reviewable? I thought all TDs were reviewed?

[fpres]

Wow, definitely was down there.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I can't wait until these replacement refs are out

[jbergey22]

How is that play not reviewable? I thought all TDs were reviewed?

My guess is since the penalty occurred it was counted as the next play. Whatever the case the Lions just got fucked.

[Bobble]

As long as he turns them into a winning team, I suspect many fans won't care so much about the "disciplined" or "classy" part.

I don't think they can be a winning team if they aren't more disciplined. Case in point: Coach, how about you don't ejaculate a challenge flag without having thought it through for a second?

[stevew]

Forsett should have been penalized for delay of game.

[Hammer755]

My guess is since the penalty occurred it was counted as the next play. Whatever the case the Lions just got fucked.

Ding. Good call.

I mean your guess, not the call on the field ... that was just awful.

[Glengoyne]

I don't buy for a second that there wasn't something they could have done about that. All scoring plays are reviewed. What the heck.

Now the clarification...because the coach throws the flag...they can't review it? Un believable.

[cougarfreak]

My guess is since the penalty occurred it was counted as the next play. Whatever the case the Lions just got fucked.

That's an awesome rule..........if he doesn't throw the challenge flag, it gets reviewed. So, who fucking cares if we get the call right, it's we are going to enforce the rule. Good call NFL.

[Abe Sargent]

The ruke will be changed in the offseason

[tucker rocky]

Lions HC should've waited.
Stupid rule though.

[Bobble]

How about just a delay of game for throwing a challenge flag when you shouldn't ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't buy for a second that there wasn't something they could have done about that. All scoring plays are reviewed. What the heck.

Now the clarification...because the coach throws the flag...they can't review it? Un believable.

Exact same thing happened to the Falcons last Sunday. It's not as though it's anything new or even unknown.

[stevew]

How is it that none of the refs blow that dead.

[Lathum]

what is the point of that rule?

[Hammer755]

How is it that none of the refs blow that dead.

Holding the whistle is the right call there, IMO. It wasn't obvious in real time that he was down (though certainly obvious in slo-mo). A play resulting in a TD can always be reversed. A whistle where it should have been a TD can't.

[Bobble]

what is the point of that rule?

Phil said that its that you should benefit from illegally throwing a challenge flag although it's not clear how you ever could....

[B & B]

http://benonigoose.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/what_the_shit.jpg

[Glengoyne]

Exact same thing happened to the Falcons last Sunday. It's not as though it's anything new or even unknown.

Interesting.

I was actually going to come back here and bet that the ruling was still wrong. In that I can't see how the penalty for an illegal challenge would over rule the "rule" that ALL scoring plays are reviewed.

[Glengoyne]

Megat*R*on. But megaton would be great for a huge D-lineman. Who do I submit that idea to?
....


Auto spelling correction is a good reason not to post from your iPad. That said, now that I'm posting from a laptop, I keep touching the screen to focus the mouse. That is actually quite a bit more embarrasing.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Have a hard time hearing the game.

Is it the thinking that but for Schwartz's challenge, that play would have been reviewed and the td would not have counted?

[Abe Sargent]

Wayne State Baby!

[Glengoyne]

Have a hard time hearing the game.

Is it the thinking that but for Schwartz's challenge, that play would have been reviewed and the td would not have counted?

Yup

[stevew]

Nice double team hold armbar on Watt to open that TD up.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yup

Really? I find that hard to believe.

[Hammer755]

Really? I find that hard to believe.

Replay clearly showed both a knee and an elbow down. Throwing the challenge flag made the score unreviewable by rule.

[stevew]

What the crap is Houston's gameplan here? Seems like they have been in their 2minute offense all second half.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Replay clearly showed both a knee and an elbow down. Throwing the challenge flag made the score unreviewable by rule.

While a horrible rule, Schwartz has to know that and get a hold of himself. That's on him.

[dubb93]

Ummm...hit on a defenseless receiver? On a punt? I thought his defense was to call for a fair catch and if he choose not to, and he clearly didn't call for one, he gets what he has coming.

[stevew]

You can't drill the runner til he fields the ball

[stevew]

Waiting to see the Texans call yet another horrible series of low percentage plays here

[dubb93]

You can't drill the runner til he fields the ball

Oh, so the ruling was he didn't have the ball yet. Well, that ruling is wrong. I rewound it several times. I didn't realize that was the ruling.

[stevew]

I don't have a DVR here so I couldn't re-watch it

[Crapshoot]

So, am I the only one who thought the Texans may have scored too soon? Ie, why run that play before the 2 minute warning?

[Hammer755]

Guh. Way too much time left.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Lions can never make a stop when it's needed. Never.

[Matthean]

I don't think they can be a winning team if they aren't more disciplined. Case in point: Coach, how about you don't ejaculate a challenge flag without having thought it through for a second?

+1. The bad parts are the Fords take forever to fire anyone and the Lions having a pulse means fans are likely too grateful to really complain. It is kind of sad that being an occasional playoff team would make one considered a highly successful Lions coach.

[miami_fan]

This is an honest question. Not trying to troll. Why wasn't that last hit on Stafford a penalty? The helmet went to Stafford's chin.

[jbergey22]

This is an honest question. Not trying to troll. Why wasn't that last hit on Stafford a penalty? The helmet went to Stafford's chin.

That was a textbook football tackle. His helmet was right in his chest. Cant call that or they might as well play touch football.

[jbergey22]

Pettigrew is such a bumb. He screws up so much.

[Glengoyne]

That was a textbook football tackle. His helmet was right in his chest. Cant call that or they might as well play touch football.

I think we have seen that called in the past, but I'm in agreement. Good tackle...no spearing there.

[stevew]

They could literally run down the whole field on Foster's back here. But they are in love with the pass.

[Glengoyne]

On the bright side. This was the Johnson and Johnson receiver duo that I drafted for my fantasy team. Too bad they finally show up the same week in week...what is this 12?

[miami_fan]

I think we have seen that called in the past, but I'm in agreement. Good tackle...no spearing there.

That is my point. Especially when hitting a QB. Oh well

[miami_fan]

Hmmmmm, no need to get closer than a 50 yarder?

[bhlloy]

Some pretty questionable play calling there. Take the ball out of Fosters hands and then run him into the line when everyone knows a run is coming. Made the FG far more difficult than it needed to be

[stevew]

I hope this ends in a tie

[bhlloy]

If they had just taken a knee instead of losing six yards, FG would have been good

[cougarfreak]

Any Cincinnati fan can tell you, Graham is ok, until the game is on the line.

[stevew]

I wonder if the Texans are just winded here, or if they have the perfect overatedness/questionable offensive play calling to lose their first playoff game.

[Abe Sargent]

I wonder if the Texans are just winded here, or if they have the perfect overatedness/questionable offensive play calling to lose their first playoff game.

Four dyas ago TExas was in a looooong OT game and now they are in another. I think it's windedness.

[stevew]

Unbelievable play calling there

[Lathum]

replacement refs call that Houston ball

[jbergey22]

Typical NFL. Both teams setting up for 45+ yard FG attempts to win the game. They play so scared to lose once victory is close its not even funny.

[stevew]

This game is a drunken fuck.

[stevew]

Jenkins should get tossed for that play. Looks like Garcon is back too.

[stevew]

This game is awesome

[kingfc22]

This game is awesome

Yes it is. :D

[Alan T]

No this game is not awesome. I am likely going to lose my game in fantasy football this week thanks to Rg III single handedly :)

[Julio Riddols]

RG III has a level of accuracy on most of his passes that is just flat out uncanny. You can't defend the throws he made most of the first half.

[bulletsponge]

someone needs to fire jerry Jones from the GM job. hed rather lose and look pathetic doing it his way than win and give credit to anyone else

[Scoobz0202]

Fire them all, Jerry. Then fire yourself.

[Abe Sargent]

Zang!

[Scoobz0202]

Hey look, Bryant did a thing.

Nice play on the move by Romo.

[stevew]

I wish I coud find the stats on Brandon Banks not taking it out to the 20

[stevew]

He was open by like 10 yards there. Laughable Dallas D

[stevew]

This is shaping up to be defense on the level of Grinnel by both sides.

[stevew]

Mike Pereira is pretty consistently wrong. I bet this is his last year on TV

[Glengoyne]

Mike Pereira is pretty consistently wrong. I bet this is his last year on TV

oh darn what did i miss?

[stevew]

He said something like "the runner is down" just as it was confirmed he wasn't. Then tried some lame "they probably didn't have evidence"

[BillJasper]

Romo sucks.

[stevew]

Man...always wanted to see someone return it like Hall did there.

[dubb93]

RG3 just wrecked my fantasy team.

[Glengoyne]

for fantasy defenses that non score had to be painful.

[rowech]

Romo sucks.

I'll never understand the hate for Romo. He didn't give up 38 points.

He's an above average QB in my mind.

[BillJasper]

If they had just taken a knee instead of losing six yards, FG would have been good

I'll never understand the hate for Romo. He didn't give up 38 points.

He's an above average QB in my mind.

How much talent do they need to put around him before he's able to lead them to some meaningful wins?

[Lathum]

yeah, your team scores 31 points I wouldn't be pointing at the QB for the loss

[BillJasper]

yeah, your team scores 31 points I wouldn't be pointing at the QB for the loss

But weren't they down 35-13 with Romo throwing two int's before the offense woke up? That tells me that Washington quit being as aggressive, not that Romo is a good QB.

[B & B]

a guy in my FFL has Romo and RGIII as his QBs

he started the wrong one. Id be happy if either of my QBs on Sunday put up 1/2 that amount of points.

[stevew]

Brady is in love with grounding

[BillJasper]

Brady is in love with grounding

It was a smart play. Worse thing that happens if the ball gets spotted where he threw the ball. With the potential that the refs miss it.

[Matthean]

But weren't they down 35-13 with Romo throwing two int's before the offense woke up? That tells me that Washington quit being as aggressive, not that Romo is a good QB.

It also means Dallas gave up 35 up to that point. Give Dallas a decent defense and I bet they make the playoffs.

[BillJasper]

It also means Dallas gave up 35 up to that point. Give Dallas a decent defense and I bet they make the playoffs.

Not if Romo can only move the ball when down by multiple scores.

[Abe Sargent]

Give Baltimore a decent defense and I bet they MISS the playoffs. Yuck yuck!

[BillJasper]

It also means Dallas gave up 35 up to that point. Give Dallas a decent defense and I bet they make the playoffs.

What exactly was Romo doing during the second quarter when Washington was scoring at will?

[jbergey22]

What exactly was Romo doing during the second quarter when Washington was scoring at will?

He was watching his defense implode!

[BillJasper]

He was watching his defense implode!

Which is why he'll never win a Super Bowl. He's a great 'garbage time' QB, he will never be anything more than that.

Down 14-3, Dallas goes three and out.

Down 21-3. Dallas turns the ball over on a Romo int (which Washington then drives for another TD).

[Matthean]

What exactly was Romo doing during the second quarter when Washington was scoring at will?

Dallas ranks 7th in passing yards per game. They rank 29th in rushing. Romo is 16th in terms of rating. Defensively, Dallas ranks 15th in points allowed per game although that is before this game. I'm by no means a Romo defender, but I don't see any valid reason to say he sucks if for no other reason he gets near no support from the running game.

[jbergey22]

Which is why he'll never win a Super Bowl. He's a great 'garbage time' QB, he will never be anything more than that.

Hes an above average quarterback. Get a solid running game, a good offensive line and a consistent defense and he could win it all. Hes the same type of qb as Mathew Stafford and Jay Cutler who dont get near the blame that Romo does. Its not easy to play QB in the NFL with no running game and a shitty offensive line. He does pretty good for himself other than some bonehead plays.

[BillJasper]

Hes an above average quarterback. Get a solid running game, a good offensive line and a consistent defense and he could win it all. Hes the same type of qb as Mathew Stafford and Jay Cutler who dont get near the blame that Romo does. Its not easy to play QB in the NFL with no running game and a shitty offensive line. He does pretty good for himself other than some bonehead plays.

He's got former first-rounders at Left Tackle, Running Back and Reciever and a future Hall-of-Famer at Tight End. Could it be that Romo simply lacks a killer instinct early in games?

He threw for roughly 110 of his 441 yards in the first half.

[rowech]

He's got former first-rounders at Left Tackle, Running Back and Reciever and a future Hall-of-Famer at Tight End. Could it be that Romo simply lacks a killer instinct early in games?

He threw for roughly 110 of his 441 yards in the first half.

Being a first round pick doesn't make you good.

[Dutch]

I don't buy for a second that there wasn't something they could have done about that. All scoring plays are reviewed. What the heck.

Now the clarification...because the coach throws the flag...they can't review it? Un believable.

So what's the strategic takeaway from this episode? If the Lions don't throw the challenge flag, would it have been in Houston's best interest to throw the challenge flag there to ensure the replay doesn't take place and the TD stands?

[Scoobz0202]

How much talent do they need to put around him before he's able to lead them to some meaningful wins?

He's got former first-rounders at Left Tackle, Running Back and Reciever and a future Hall-of-Famer at Tight End. Could it be that Romo simply lacks a killer instinct early in games?

He threw for roughly 110 of his 441 yards in the first half.

His offensive line is terrible. His 1st first round receiver is inconsistent as hell. And his Hall-of-Fame TE showed up and has shown up all season.

[rowech]

Also, there's no way Witten gets into the hall of fame. The game has changed too much and he's good but he's not better than Gonzalez and these new tight end super freaks are going to overshadow Witten.

[SirFozzie]

Looked like he deliberately threw the ball when he realized he was going to be stopped short.

[jbergey22]

He's got former first-rounders at Left Tackle, Running Back and Reciever and a future Hall-of-Famer at Tight End. Could it be that Romo simply lacks a killer instinct early in games?

He threw for roughly 110 of his 441 yards in the first half.


It could be many things but you cant put giving up 28 points in the 2nd quarter on Romo.

First round talent doesnt mean first round production either. Felix Jones is at best a 3rd down back, Dez Bryant has a lot of talent but he screws Romo a lot by running poor routes, the Cowboys O-Line has been decimated by injuries but yes Witten is a future Hall of Famer.

Romo has a lot of faults but they tend to surface when the other parts of his teams are so lousy.

[BillJasper]

Being a first round pick doesn't make you good.

Even if they were all studs, people would be making other excuses for Romo. When Demarco Murray was healthy, Romo was still wildly inconsistent.

Guy won't win a Super Bowl. Whether he is in Dallas, New England, Green Bay or Pittsburgh. He simply doesn't have that "something special".

[BillJasper]

His offensive line is terrible. His 1st first round receiver is inconsistent as hell. And his Hall-of-Fame TE showed up and has shown up all season.

I guess the offensive line only plays in the second half when Romo has a 99.2 passer rating vs. the first half when he has a 71 rating? His first quarter rating is 63.8.

[SirFozzie]

VINCE WILFORK SMASH!

He threw the Jets blocker into the QB and knocked the ball loose!. 21-0 Pats!

[Desnudo]

First time I've seen a giant ass cause a fumble

[Fidatelo]

Holy sheeit

[Abe Sargent]

Tiem to turn the TV off, this game is over

[BillJasper]

This is hilarious! Pats out front on 28-0 on Jet turnovers.

[SirFozzie]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! (sorry, I can't resist.. so insane)

[jbergey22]

Even if they were all studs, people would be making other excuses for Romo. When Demarco Murray was healthy, Romo was still wildly inconsistent.

Guy won't win a Super Bowl. Whether he is in Dallas, New England, Green Bay or Pittsburgh. He simply doesn't have that "something special".


If Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl it should give hope to almost every QB currently playing in the NFL.

According to some Peyton Manning didnt have "something special" until 2006.

[stevew]

I hope they hang 70 on the jets

[Julio Riddols]

Man, the Jets are a circus act.

[Crapshoot]

Anyone saw what Rex Ryan was "mouthing?" :D

[Buccaneer]

I hope they hang 70 on the jets

+1 but with no one getting injured.

[DaddyTorgo]

Catching up...LMAO at that 3rd TD by the Pats. Sanchez should have just gone down.

[Julio Riddols]

Maybe they'll put Tebow in and he'll throw 5 miraculous completions out of 15 passes, all for TD's and then Skip Bayless will explode.

[DaddyTorgo]

Anyone saw what Rex Ryan was "mouthing?" :D

Looked like "The fuck are we doing" or "The fuck is going on"

[DaddyTorgo]

Catching up...LMAO at that 3rd TD by the Pats. Sanchez should have just gone down.

OMG...the 4th was even sillier.

[bulletsponge]

If Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl it should give hope to almost every QB currently playing in the NFL.

According to some Peyton Manning didnt have "something special" until 2006.

to be fair "something special" for Manning was Bob Sanders. if it wasnt for him Manning still wouldnt have a ring

[stevew]

I hope they play Tebow and wilfork makes him eat a fat dick.

[BillJasper]

:lol: Fun watching the Jets get spanked.

[SirFozzie]

Well, we're almost to our season average with 3:00 to play in the second. 35 Second Quarter points for the Pats. I think they had 42 on the Titans in the snow bowl.

[Glengoyne]

So what's the strategic takeaway from this episode? If the Lions don't throw the challenge flag, would it have been in Houston's best interest to throw the challenge flag there to ensure the replay doesn't take place and the TD stands?

There may be something to that.

I like it.

Your team scores a POS TD that you know won't stand up on replay. So you throw the challenge flag. Ohh Penalty...no review. Unfortunately I think the interpretation would be that YOU can't benefit from the review, but that the other team probably still would.

If it did work, it would earn you a heck of a fine. But it would probably result in a bad rule getting changed mid season rather than waiting until the off season.

[Crapshoot]

We're going to call this on the mercy rule soon, right?

[SirFozzie]

Wouldn't you love to watch the upcoming halftime talk from Rex Ryan? Probably have to do it from behind a couple inches of armor plate to avoid collateral damage from the explosion

[BillJasper]

Wouldn't you love to watch the upcoming halftime talk from Rex Ryan? Probably have to do it from behind a couple inches of armor plate to avoid collateral damage from the explosion

Probably just going to go to his office and cry while sucking a prostitutes toes.

[B & B]

Jets looking good in preseason

[BillJasper]

Amazing how much more capable Sanchez looks down by 35 with the Patriots no longer applying the same amount of pressure...

[SirFozzie]

That was a car wreck of a hit. Clean, but a car wreck

[stevew]

He's gotta be concussed there

[stevew]

That was a car wreck of a hit. Clean, but a car wreck

Shit QB throwing a shit route. He should bear some of the blame for hanging his guy out to die.

[BillJasper]

Terrible play calling by the Jets.

[stevew]

If they kick this FG, it's only a 4score game!

[stevew]

Just need 11 more of those

[stevew]

Novel idea...feature a talented artist doing songs that people have already heard and like. This is the opposite of the shitty Kid Rock performance.

[DaddyTorgo]

Novel idea...feature a talented artist doing songs that people have already heard and like. This is the opposite of the shitty Kid Rock performance.

"Like a Jet" maybe not the best choice given the way this game is going though...

[King of New York]

Rex at halftime: "We've got to stay true to ourselves."

Isn't that what got the Jets in this predicament in the first place?

[Buccaneer]

Novel idea...feature a talented artist doing songs that people have already heard and like. This is the opposite of the shitty Kid Rock performance.

I guess 'like' means different things to different people.

[Vince, Pt. II]

In what universe is Witten a hall of fame tight end? He's like 8th best in the league RIGHT NOW.

Edit: Ok, maybe 8th was a bit steep. But there are at least four guys I'd put ahead of him (Gonzalez, Gates, Gronk and Davis) who are in the league right now. I don't think he's a hall of famer.

[Desnudo]

Does Rex ever close his mouth

[Lathum]

In what universe is Witten a hall of fame tight end? He's like 8th best in the league RIGHT NOW.

Edit: Ok, maybe 8th was a bit steep. But there are at least four guys I'd put ahead of him (Gonzalez, Gates, Gronk and Davis) who are in the league right now. I don't think he's a hall of famer.

He is the all time leading receiver in Cowboys history. That gets you into the HOF

[SirFozzie]

Nice Goal Line Stop for the Pats!

[stevew]

QB controversy aside, why isn't Tebow in as the redzone QB. He is great at that position.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I looked up Witten's stats - he's been quite good for a long time. That being said, he's never been the best at his position ever, and the best he's been is probably the third best TE in the league. This is the perfect quantity vs quality argument.

[stevew]

With only 5 players making it per year, it will take Witten a long long time to get in.

[rowech]

I looked up Witten's stats - he's been quite good for a long time. That being said, he's never been the best at his position ever, and the best he's been is probably the third best TE in the league. This is the perfect quantity vs quality argument.

Those kind of guys get in in baseball but not football.

[DaddyTorgo]

Those kind of guys get in in baseball but not football.

Weighted Career AV (100-95-...) (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?page_id=518): 76 (473rd overall since 1950)

Jason Witten NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WittJa00.htm)

[Lathum]

I looked up Witten's stats - he's been quite good for a long time. That being said, he's never been the best at his position ever, and the best he's been is probably the third best TE in the league. This is the perfect quantity vs quality argument.

So Drew Brees isn't in the hall of fame either?

[stevew]

He is the all time leading receiver in Cowboys history. That gets you into the HOF

He's a slightly better Jay Novachek with 0 rings and playing in the passing era.

[Abe Sargent]

So Drew Brees isn't in the hall of fame either?

Comparing TEs to Qbs is silly for HOF purposes.

[Abe Sargent]

Those kind of guys get in in baseball but not football.

*cough*ARTMONK*cough*

[Matthean]

Guy won't win a Super Bowl.

Considering the percentage of QBs who do win a SB, that's not much of a statement.

[Scoobz0202]

Also, there's no way Witten gets into the hall of fame.

That surprises me. I don't know the history of football like baseball. I normally just watch the Cowboys game and then casually watch other teams. But Witten has been so damn consistent in Dallas. He might not be the most athletic tight end in the league but he is an excellent blocker and runs great routes. He has been the complete package. Has the tight end position historically been judged based on receiving numbers only? I really don't know. Somebody educate me.

[SirFozzie]

JFA.

Jets Fumble Again.

[jbergey22]

That surprises me. I don't know the history of football like baseball. I normally just watch the Cowboys game and then casually watch other teams. But Witten has been so damn consistent in Dallas. He might not be the most athletic tight end in the league but he is an excellent blocker and runs great routes. He has been the complete package. Has the tight end position historically been judged based on receiving numbers only? I really don't know. Somebody educate me.

His career is probably only half over. A lot will depend on what else he does. His 778 catches catches when he is 30 years old has to atleast put him on the Hall of Fame radar. At the moment he couldnt retire and get in but if he should end up with over 1100 receptions and end up 3rd on the All-time reception list he will certainly get a lot of consideration.

[Julio Riddols]

Some food for thought: Kellen Winslow played for a Chargers offense that threw it over 600 times a season and he only had 3 seasons with more than 65 catches. This might be the first season Witten has played on a team that throws it 600 times, and he has caught fewer than 64 balls only once. I'd say they're at the very least comparable as players. Saying this is a passing era doesn't seem to fit when Air Coryell was the same thing to an even greater degree.

Witten probably won't get into the HOF because there are so many other players ahead of him in this era and so few spots to fill, but in my opinion he is good enough to be in.

[Sun Tzu]

With only 5 players making it per year, it will take Whitten a long long time to get in.

This. Short of Witten having some amazing playoff games, and a breakout performance in a Super Bowl, he's too overshadowed by Tony Romo and Jerry Jones.

Vernon Davis, Tony Gonzales, and Antonio Gates are the only players from his generation with a shot at getting in.

[Abe Sargent]

This. Short of Witten having some amazing playoff games, and a breakout performance in a Super Bowl, he's too overshadowed by Tony Romo and Jerry Jones.

Vernon Davis, Tony Gonzales, and Antonio Gates are the only players from this generation with a shot at getting in.

Gates and Witten have virtually identical stat lines and entered the year at the same time. Why would one get in and not the other?


EDIT: I apologize, I thought I read the stats that way. Witten has more yards, but Gates has waaaay more TDs - sorry bout that.

[Sun Tzu]

Gates and Witten have virtually identical stat lines and entered the year at the same time. Why would one get in and not the other?

Star power.

[SirFozzie]

Wilfork was eyeing that turducken like it was the Jet Offense

[stevew]

Witten needs a 11 catch, 160 yard, 2TD type of super bowl and until that happens, this discussion is futile There's only 5 spots per year. Figure 1QB per year at the minimum. Plus a defensive player or two. Plus guys that didn't get in before. And Whitten only has 42TD catches. He needs to get busy.

[Lathum]

Why is Davis even in the discussion? He was an underperforming malcontent early in his career and his stats pale compared to Wittens.

Witten is in his 10th season and Davis in his 7th. Witten has over 400 more catches and over 4,000 more yards while being targeted less than 3oo times more. Davis has a career high in catches of 78. This year will be the 6th year in a row Witten goes over that, has topped 90 3 times and will likely again this year.

Not really sure how you even compare the 2. Davis is more on par with Chris Cooley that Witten.

[Sun Tzu]

Additionally, re: Witten/Gates...

For a long time, Gates was considered the "go to" guy on the Chargers. Gates was the primary weapon, and when the Bolts were going to the Playoffs every year, you knew you had to stop LT and Gates.

Witten, meanwhile, has never been the #1 guy on his own team. He's always played second fiddle to Owens, Glenn, and Austin. Hell...in his own career, Witten has been the leading receiver on his own team just once. Gates has led the Chargers in receiving five times.

[stevew]

Gates has almost 2X the amount of TDs

[BillJasper]

Whitten needs a 11 catch, 160 yard, 2TD type of super bowl and until that happens, this discussion is futile There's only 5 spots per year. Figure 1QB per year at the minimum. Plus a defensive player or two. Plus guys that didn't get in before. And Whitten only has 42TD catches. He needs to get busy.

Needs a better QB running the offense.

[Sun Tzu]

Why is Davis even in the discussion? He was an underperforming malcontent early in his career and his stats pale compared to Wittens.

Witten is in his 10th season and Davis in his 7th. Witten has over 400 more catches and over 4,000 more yards while being targeted less than 3oo times more. Davis has a career high in catches of 78. This year will be the 6th year in a row Witten goes over that, has topped 90 3 times and will likely again this year.

Not really sure how you even compare the 2. Davis is more on par with Chris Cooley that Witten.

I disagree. Football has never been solely about stats. Davis has been on some of the worst offensive teams in NFL history, but that's not what has defined him. What has defined him is his "rebirth" during the Singletary era, and his off-the-charts performances in the playoffs last season. If the 49ers continue down this road, with Davis being the primary weapon in a rapidly growing passing offense, I wouldn't be surprised to see Davis widely regarded as an all-time TE.

Speculative, sure...but he's already accomplished more HoF-wise than Witten. Again, this isn't about stats, but star power. Witten is just too...meek.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Star power.

Pretty much. If you told me that Gates and Witten had virtually identical stat lines, I'd say you were full of crap. I'm amazed to see how similar they are. I'd imagine very few casual football fans outside of Dallas even know who Witten is.

[stevew]

Vernon Davis will never make the HOF. He's like the black Heath Miller.

[hoopsguy]

But Davis isn't close yet.

0 80 catch seasons (only one 70 catch)
0 1000 yard seasons (2 > 900 yards)
1 10TD season (7 and 6 are next two best)
1 Pro Bowl in 6 seasons

Witten
5 80 catch seasons (another with 79)
3 1000 yard receiving seasons (3 more with > 900)
0 10TD seasons (9 and 7 are two best)
7 Pro Bowls, 2 Time First Team All Pro

And if you were looking for someone "objective" to chime in, uber-Giants fan Lathum is taking up the cause in comparing these two.

Davis has a decent chance of having a better career than Witten, assuming a little more dynamic offense than what 49ers have had over Davis' 6 year career. But to suggest significant separation right now ... well, I think that argument can only go one way and that would be pro Witten if you are basing it on achievements to date.

"Already accomplished more HoF-wise than Witten" - to date, Davis has more notoriety to being the guy called out in the "WE WANT WINNERS!" speech than anything else. Please.

[Sun Tzu]

Meh. I'll just respectfully disagree. Davis is widely considered an elite TE in the league, and has been for a couple years. He already has a signature moment, with the last second catch in the New Orleans playoff game last year.

Witten is widely considered to...have good hands.

Again, I'm judging this solely on star power and speculation. I didn't say Davis would go to the HoF, I just said he has a better chance. If you're taking this for anything more than that, then you're reading between lines that don't exist.

:-\

[Lathum]

"Already accomplished more HoF-wise than Witten" - to date, Davis has more notoriety to being the guy called out in the "WE WANT WINNERS!" speech than anything else. Please.

My thoughts exact. I think it is probably hard for niners fans, but Davis is far more remembered for being the guy who was sent to the locker room than anything he accomplished on the field.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd imagine very few casual football fans outside of Dallas even know who Witten is.

The ones in Tennessee know :)

[Glengoyne]

He is the all time leading receiver in Cowboys history. That gets you into the HOF

I don't think that is the case.

[Vince, Pt. II]

My thoughts exact. I think it is probably hard for niners fans, but Davis is far more remembered for being the guy who was sent to the locker room than anything he accomplished on the field.

Yeah, I think we've probably got SF-tinted glasses on here. His stats are not at all flashy. I think that's mostly because of the offense he's had around him, but still. Talent wise? He's elite. Production wise? He's middle of the road at best. He does have nearly as many TD's as Witten does, though.

[Scoobz0202]

Witten is widely considered to...have good hands.



Is that really how those outside of Dallas fans view him? As a Dallas fan his hands are not the first thing that comes to mind.

Yeah, I think we've probably got SF-tinted glasses on here. His stats are not at all flashy. I think that's mostly because of the offense he's had around him, but still. Talent wise? He's elite. Production wise? He's middle of the road at best. He does have nearly as many TD's as Witten does, though.

And really, this could be me talking about Witten. I see elite when I watch him play but apparently the numbers and the national viewing audience disagrees.

[BishopMVP]

How does Witten have so few TD's? Does Dallas stay away from throwing to the 6'6 TE near the goal line for some reason? Gronk has almost as many TD's in 2.5 years (37) as Witten does his whole career.

Other fun Patriots fact - it probably won't last playing Houston, SF, Miami 2x (and Jacksonville) the last 5 games, but they're now averaging more PPG (37.0) than they did in 2007. 190 points in the last 4 games.

[Scoobz0202]

How does Witten have so few TD's? Does Dallas stay away from throwing to the 6'6 TE near the goal line for some reason? Gronk has almost as many TD's in 2.5 years (37) as Witten does his whole career.



For whatever reason they tend to use Witten has the workhorse to get down the field but then decide to target the receivers on "creative" plays once they get close and then settle for a field goal. It gets frustrating because they won't utilize Witten but when it gets to crunch time they will throw to him constantly to get down the field and you sit and wonder why the hell he isn't targeted much more.

[Julio Riddols]

I wonder if there are stats regarding how often Witten is targeted in the red zone. Also, as someone who hates Dallas, Witten is near the top of the list of names that come to mind when I think of that team. Witten has been a top 5 TE most of his career in my eyes. His 7 pro bowls can attest to that.

My top 5 TE in the league as of right now:

Gronkowski
Graham
Gonzalez
Witten
Davis

Gates can't stay on the field and hasn't been very productive because of it for a couple years now. He'll retire soon probably.

Coincidentally, those are also my top 5 TE in the last 20 years as well, except that Davis drops off the list (and falls below Gates to 7th) and Sharpe takes the top spot. We are seeing some exceptional TE talent in the league right now.

[Julio Riddols]

Game Play Finder Query Results - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2003&year_max=2012&team_id=dal&opp_id=&game_type=&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=0&down=1&down=2&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=lt&fp_tm_opp=opp&fp_ydline=19&type=PASS&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards#receiver::none) <-- these are red zone target/completions data for the Cowboys since 2003. Crazy that Dez and Miles Austin have received 90 plus targets despite only being in the league for a few seasons each, while Witten has only 106 targets now in his 10th season.

Now I'll get the same data for Davis and Gronk.

Game Play Finder Query Results - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2006&year_max=2012&team_id=sfo&opp_id=&game_type=&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=0&down=1&down=2&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=lt&fp_tm_opp=opp&fp_ydline=19&type=PASS&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards#receiver::none) < Davis 59 targets in 7 years. Not a huge difference, except Davis plays in a much lower scoring offense and wasn't really worth entering into the conversation of great TE's until his 4th season. As an example, Frisco has run 100 fewer pass plays and almost 200 fewer total plays in the red zone than Dallas has in the last 7 years.

Game Play Finder Query Results - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2010&year_max=2012&team_id=nwe&opp_id=&game_type=&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=0&down=1&down=2&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=lt&fp_tm_opp=opp&fp_ydline=19&type=PASS&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards#receiver::none) < Gronkowski has an insane 62 targets in his 3 years in the league, nearly double the amount per season as Witten. New England has also run almost 200 more total plays in the red zone than Dallas in that time frame. Wow.

What I get from this data is that it is a matter of opportunity when it comes to how many touchdowns a player has. It's dumb that touchdowns even really matter that much when considering overall body of work. Witten blows Davis away from that standpoint, and lands more in the range of Tony Gonzalez and Shannon Sharpe for continuous high level production over the course of his career.

[Danny]

Gates vs. Witten is not even close. I understand the numbers other than TD are similar, but football is not like baseball where you can just look at stats. When teams went up against the Chargers, out of all the receiving options on the field, they game planned against Gates and often had him double teamed. Witten is a very good TE, but teams usually game plan to stop other players and thus he is left with 1 on 1 coverage the whole game.

[Danny]

Though I do admit Gates is not the same player now due to injuries, but for those years in his prime, it really was not close.

[Radii]

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/3754087/stillbetterthancassel.0_standard_709.0.gif

:D

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, when I mentioned Gates earlier, I meant in his career, not necessarily right now. He's clearly dropped from the top tier TE he was in the last couple of seasons.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Radii, that is a fantastic .gif. Holy crap, the head drop to the turf after he sees it picked up is just amazing :D

[Vince, Pt. II]

Game Play Finder Query Results - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2003&year_max=2012&team_id=dal&opp_id=&game_type=&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=0&down=1&down=2&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=lt&fp_tm_opp=opp&fp_ydline=19&type=PASS&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards#receiver::none) <-- these are red zone target/completions data for the Cowboys since 2003. Crazy that Dez and Miles Austin have received 90 plus targets despite only being in the league for a few seasons each, while Witten has only 106 targets now in his 10th season.

Now I'll get the same data for Davis and Gronk.

Game Play Finder Query Results - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2006&year_max=2012&team_id=sfo&opp_id=&game_type=&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=0&down=1&down=2&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=lt&fp_tm_opp=opp&fp_ydline=19&type=PASS&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards#receiver::none) < Davis 59 targets in 7 years. Not a huge difference, except Davis plays in a much lower scoring offense and wasn't really worth entering into the conversation of great TE's until his 4th season. As an example, Frisco has run 100 fewer pass plays and almost 200 fewer total plays in the red zone than Dallas has in the last 7 years.

What I get from this data is that it is a matter of opportunity when it comes to how many touchdowns a player has. It's dumb that touchdowns even really matter that much when considering overall body of work. Witten blows Davis away from that standpoint, and lands more in the range of Tony Gonzalez and Shannon Sharpe for continuous high level production over the course of his career.

So 26 TDs in 59 targets is similar to 29 TDs in 106 targets? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, other than the Cowboys are really stupid for not giving Witten more opportunities in the red zone. I think this comes down to the idea of a baseball player getting a double with no one on, vs a double with the bases loaded. We shouldn't penalize Witten because he's only thrown to outside the red zone (mostly). Is that what you're trying to say?

[Julio Riddols]

The .gif is really sad to watch. I almost feel bad for Sanchez. I hope late in his career he is a backup somewhere with a lot of offensive talent and then the starter goes down and he gets to have one good year, just because of that .gif.

[Julio Riddols]

So 26 TDs in 59 targets is similar to 29 TDs in 106 targets? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, other than the Cowboys are really stupid for not giving Witten more opportunities in the red zone. I think this comes down to the idea of a baseball player getting a double with no one on, vs a double with the bases loaded. We shouldn't penalize Witten because he's only thrown to outside the red zone (mostly). Is that what you're trying to say?

Yeah. I won't argue that he has worse TD numbers overall. He just isn't given the amount of chances as others. His career red zone catch rate is actually higher than Gonzalez, too. Why it is that he gets fewer chances, I do not know. Interestingly, Witten seems to get shots inside the 10 much less with Romo than with other QB's he has played with in his career. Looking at his career TD catches: 8 from Romo of less than 10 yards, 9 from other QB's. Romo has been his QB for more than 6 seasons. I'd almost put his lack of TD's in the red zone on Romo. Hell, Kitna hit him on 4 of them in less than 10 games. In the same time frame, Romo has thrown 53 TD passes under 10 yards to other players.

Vernon Davis, on the other hand, has caught 10 from Alex Smith of less than 10 yards starting in 07, while other receivers combined caught 9.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Just looking over some numbers, and holy crap I must have erased from my memory how bad the 49ers were in the mid 2000's. They had 1,895 yards passing in 2005 AS A TEAM. The full passing line, just for laughs:

204/389, 1,895 yards, 8 TD, 21 INT

As a point of comparison, Shaun Alexander rushed for 15 yards less than the 49ers passed for as a team that year.

[Julio Riddols]

That reminds me of the Akili Smith/Scott Mitchell Bengals of 2000. 3.8 yards per attempt passing that season. Speaks volumes about how good Corey Dillon really was. He may be considered an all time great if not for being stuck on some of the worst teams in football history.

[Vince, Pt. II]

In looking over the numbers between Witten and Davis, and comparing the Cowboy and 49er offenses, I've decided that it's really, really difficult to compare even players at the same position in football. There is just way too much variability. Between offensive scheme, QB throwing the ball, playcalling, coaching, just too many variables to account for. For example, in the 7 years that Vernon Davis has been in the league, the 49ers have 17,772 passing yards. The Cowboys have 24,260, almost 7,000 more. That's more than two full seasons of yardage by the 49ers. How can a direct comparison possibly relay the story between the two players?

[Vince, Pt. II]

That reminds me of the Akili Smith/Scott Mitchell Bengals of 2000. 3.8 yards per attempt passing that season. Speaks volumes about how good Corey Dillon really was. He may be considered an all time great if not for being stuck on some of the worst teams in football history.

Oof. That's even worse than the Niners' 4.3.

[Julio Riddols]

Crazy thing was Dillon averaging over 4.5 yards a carry that year. That dude was a beast.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Kinda like Jeff Garcia that year as well - 4,278 yards, 31 TDs, 10 INTs on a 6-10 team. He posted consecutive 336 yard, 4 TD, 0 INT losses that year. Ridiculous.

[rowech]

I disagree. Football has never been solely about stats. Davis has been on some of the worst offensive teams in NFL history, but that's not what has defined him. What has defined him is his "rebirth" during the Singletary era, and his off-the-charts performances in the playoffs last season. If the 49ers continue down this road, with Davis being the primary weapon in a rapidly growing passing offense, I wouldn't be surprised to see Davis widely regarded as an all-time TE.

Speculative, sure...but he's already accomplished more HoF-wise than Witten. Again, this isn't about stats, but star power. Witten is just too...meek.

Vernon Davis doesn't have a prayer. Footballs fixed number of entries each year and variety of positions make the NFL's hall of fame about how good you are compared to the guys you played with. If you weren't ever considered at that level when you played then you won't get in.

Today's passing game has totally changed things. Gonzalez and Gates will get in and that's it. Jury out on the younger guys right now.

[jbergey22]

So if the Hall of Fame is now about Star Power does this mean Tim Tebow has a better chance than Jason Witten of getting in the Hall of Fame?

I honestly cant see what the attraction is with Vernon Davis unless someone is a fan of inconsistency. Atleast with Witten you know what you are getting game in and game out. Vernon has talent but that doesnt make him more productive. Vernon could be the best TE in the league but that doesnt mean he is.

[Logan]

Remember when Schwartz was ripping on Harbaugh for not knowing the rules?

[Matthean]

Remember when Schwartz was ripping on Harbaugh for not knowing the rules?

Humbleness is not his strong point.

[jbergey22]

Remember when Schwartz was ripping on Harbaugh for not knowing the rules?

Humbleness is not his strong point.

I have a feeling that the 3 losing coaches from the games yesterday will all be looking for new jobs shortly athough Schwartz is probably the best bet to get another season.

[Desnudo]

Witten is like the Welker for Dallas. Gates was the prototype for Gronk type TEs. Who would take Witten over Gates at their peaks? Anyone? Teams used to gameplay for Gates. I don't think anyone does for Witten.

[jbergey22]

Witten is like the Welker for Dallas. Gates was the prototype for Gronk type TEs. Who would take Witten over Gates at their peaks? Anyone? Teams used to gameplay for Gates. I don't think anyone does for Witten.

To be fair early in Gates career teams used to gameplan for LT.

[BillJasper]

I wonder how people can forget that Gates played a number of years with Tomlinson in the backfield and Davis has Gore. Players that make/made defenses respect play-action.

[cuervo72]

Pretty much. If you told me that Gates and Witten had virtually identical stat lines, I'd say you were full of crap. I'm amazed to see how similar they are. I'd imagine very few casual football fans outside of Dallas even know who Witten is.

Eh, as an Eagles fan I damn well know who he is. As an opposing player, he's a giant PITA.

[cuervo72]

Meh. I'll just respectfully disagree. Davis is a 49er and as such I have the inability to be objective.

Corrected.

[Sun Tzu]

Corrected.

Well duh.

[Suburban Rhythm]

So I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but...

If the stupid rule is a challenge flag thrown causes the standard score/turnover review to become invalid, when a call that seems likely to be overturned against you (in yesterday's case, Houston), why not throw the challenge flag yourself?

Loss: 15 penalty enforced on the KO
Gain: 7 points

I haven't followed the whole thing closely enough, but did Detroit lose a timeout and/or coaches challenge for later in the game? If no, then you'd be trading 15 yards on a KO for a TD. I make that trade every time.

[sabotai]

I wonder how people can forget that Gates played a number of years with Tomlinson in the backfield and Davis has Gore. Players that make/made defenses respect play-action.

They also seem to forget that for years, San Diego had worse than zero talent at wide receiver. Teams could focus on Gates because they definitely didn't need to worry about their wide receivers. All of those years that Gates led the team in receptions, Tomlinson was #2 in receptions. I don't think a defense ever wondered just how they were going to cover Keenen McCardell or Eric Parker.

[johnnyshaka]

So I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but...

If the stupid rule is a challenge flag thrown causes the standard score/turnover review to become invalid, when a call that seems likely to be overturned against you (in yesterday's case, Houston), why not throw the challenge flag yourself?

Loss: 15 penalty enforced on the KO
Gain: 7 points

I haven't followed the whole thing closely enough, but did Detroit lose a timeout and/or coaches challenge for later in the game? If no, then you'd be trading 15 yards on a KO for a TD. I make that trade every time.

Interesting...I'd take that trade every time, too.

There has to be something in the rule book about that, though, right? I mean otherwise coaches would be tossing that flag out after every questionable TD they score, right?

[Glengoyne]

So I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but...

If the stupid rule is a challenge flag thrown causes the standard score/turnover review to become invalid, when a call that seems likely to be overturned against you (in yesterday's case, Houston), why not throw the challenge flag yourself?

Loss: 15 penalty enforced on the KO
Gain: 7 points

I haven't followed the whole thing closely enough, but did Detroit lose a timeout and/or coaches challenge for later in the game? If no, then you'd be trading 15 yards on a KO for a TD. I make that trade every time.

Dutch brought that up a couple of pages back.

I think the rule prevents the team who threw the flag from benefiting from the review, at least that is how the commentators described it. If that is the case it wouldn't work.

If the rule is written more poorly than it was conceived, then it could work.

I'd like to see someone try. Schwartz has gotten jobbed a time or two this year, and he certainly doesn't have enough class for a conscience to get in the way.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Don't you have to have a specific reason to challenge? There's no impetus for the scoring team to challenge the ruling. In the other team's case, there's at least something that they're trying to review.

[mckerney]

Dutch brought that up a couple of pages back.

I think the rule prevents the team who threw the flag from benefiting from the review, at least that is how the commentators described it. If that is the case it wouldn't work.

If the rule is written more poorly than it was conceived, then it could work.

I'd like to see someone try. Schwartz has gotten jobbed a time or two this year, and he certainly doesn't have enough class for a conscience to get in the way.

How is benefit defined? It's typically considered to the benefit of the offensive team if a pass that was called incomplete on the field is overturned to be ruled a catch. So how about a play that was ruled incomplete but should have been a fumble recovered by the defense? Could the coach on offense throw a flag there if there to block an automatic review because there would have to benefit from the review in the form of a completed pass before the part of the ruling that would benefit the other team would occur?

How about if a team is up 1 with under 2 minutes to play and the other team has no timeouts with 1:30 to go and it's 3rd and 10 at the opponents 12 yard line. The offense competes a pass and the receiver goes down at the one yard line, but the officials incorrectly rule the play a touchdown. If the coach of the team on defense throws the challenge flag can the officials not overturn the call because it would be considered beneficial for the other team not score a touchdown, or can they review the call because the offense would benefit by not scoring a touchdown and being able the kneel the ball three times to win?

[mckerney]

Looking at the rule though, I'm not sure just how it applies in this situation

cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap.

They can't snap the ball on the extra point until the replay booth okays the play, so how did the penalty on Schwartz delay the snap?

[Sun Tzu]

They also seem to forget that for years, San Diego had worse than zero talent at wide receiver. Teams could focus on Gates because they definitely didn't need to worry about their wide receivers. All of those years that Gates led the team in receptions, Tomlinson was #2 in receptions. I don't think a defense ever wondered just how they were going to cover Keenen McCardell or Eric Parker.

Likewise with Davis. Teams didn't have to worry about covering Cedrick Wilson or Arnaz Battle. Gore was almost always the #2 receiver.

:shudder:

[JPhillips]

So I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but...

If the stupid rule is a challenge flag thrown causes the standard score/turnover review to become invalid, when a call that seems likely to be overturned against you (in yesterday's case, Houston), why not throw the challenge flag yourself?

Loss: 15 penalty enforced on the KO
Gain: 7 points

I haven't followed the whole thing closely enough, but did Detroit lose a timeout and/or coaches challenge for later in the game? If no, then you'd be trading 15 yards on a KO for a TD. I make that trade every time.

I read somewhere that the rule is applied so that the penalized team can not benefit from the review.

[johnnyshaka]

I read somewhere that the rule is applied so that the penalized team can not benefit from the review.

So, had the Texans tossed the red flag right away would the officials have reviewed the play, made the right call and reversed the TD, give them a 15 yard penalty, and taken a TO away?

Or would they have immediately flagged them and told them that the play is no longer eligible to be reviewed and given them a 15 yard penalty?

[BillJasper]

So, had the Texans tossed the red flag right away would the officials have reviewed the play, made the right call and reversed the TD, give them a 15 yard penalty, and taken a TO away?

Or would they have immediately flagged them and told them that the play is no longer eligible to be reviewed and given them a 15 yard penalty?

Just toss a flag if you think the review will go against you. They'll have to change this rule.

[Julio Riddols]

They should revise the rule so that it is a 15 yard penalty on the next play against the challenging team if the challenging team benefits from the review. If the challenging team is the team that scored, then they should be penalized 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the down. Any change of possession would be negated.

They should review the play in any case.

[Bobble]

This was I was getting at a page or so ago. How is this not just a simple delay of game? 5 yards, 10 second run-off if late in the game. How is this such a terrible foul that we don't want to get the play right? Sure, penalize Schwartz for the foul but get the play right and THEN penalize him.