Chiefs Tragedy

[digamma]

Chiefs player kills girlfriend then self at their practice facility this morning. Name not yet released.

[mckerney]

Nothing official released, but looks like it may have been Jovan Belcher.

Jason LaConfora of CBSSports says it's Belcher.
https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/274904815321096193

[mckerney]

Police: Chiefs player kills girlfriend then kills self - KCTV5 (http://www.kctv5.com/story/20234680/police-chiefs-players-kills-girlfriend-then-kills-self)

Police are investigating two deadly shootings Saturday morning that they said are related.

The shootings involve a Chiefs player and his girlfriend.

The first shooting was reported about 8 a.m. at a home near 54th Street and Chrysler Avenue. The second shooting was reported a short time later at a Chiefs practice facility located on the Arrowhead facility.

Officials said the Chiefs player shot and killed his girlfriend and then drove to the practice facility where he shot and killed himself.

It's unknown if people were at Arrowhead or any of its surrounding facilities at the time.

[booradley]

Already updated on his Wikipedia profile. Amazing ...

[Abe Sargent]

Wow. Expect some crazy fallout

[mckerney]

He may have shot himself in front of teammates and coaches in the parking lot of the facility.

[Abe Sargent]

He may have shot himself in front of teammates and coaches in the parking lot of the facility.

I can't even imagine if that were the case. A friend from high school was killed by her husband and their child was killed before he killed himself and when I found out I was just floore.d To see the latter half in real life? I can;t even imagine

[Sun Tzu]

Absolutely awful.

[mckerney]

I can't even imagine if that were the case. A friend from high school was killed by her husband and their child was killed before he killed himself and when I found out I was just floore.d To see the latter half in real life? I can;t even imagine

Yeah, can't imagine that.

No mention of teammates here, but it says when he arrived at the facility he was met by coaches.

Chiefs player kills girlfriend then kills self - KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/01/3943246/chiefs-player-kills-girlfriend.html)

EDIT: And Even worse:

The woman’s mother was present at the time and witnessed the incident.

Also reading they had a two month old child. :(

[JPhillips]

How can they play tomorrow?

[Sun Tzu]

How can they play tomorrow?

This sounds like a shitty situation, but it never even occurred to me that they would postpone this game. I imagine they will hold a moment of silence tomorrow, and then just move on.

[BYU 14]

Wow, that is just horrible....Why on earth and with a 2 month old child and in front of her mother :(

[Scoobz0202]

Man..

[JPhillips]

If people saw the shooting I don't know how they can be ready emotionally. That could take a good deal of professional help to get beyond. I don't think there's a logistical way to postpone, but I don't know how they can be in any frame of mind that would allow them to focus on the game.

[BYU 14]

but I don't know how they can be in any frame of mind that would allow them to focus on the game.

Can't see this either, curious how it will develop.

[JPhillips]

Was this at the stadium or another location?

[mckerney]

If people saw the shooting I don't know how they can be ready emotionally. That could take a good deal of professional help to get beyond. I don't think there's a logistical way to postpone, but I don't know how they can be in any frame of mind that would allow them to focus on the game.

Can't imagine coaching a game 24 hours after trying to talk one of your players out of killing himself.

[mckerney]

Was this at the stadium or another location?

News said it was at the practice facility and they held a team meeting at the stadium afterwards. Not sure how close the facility and Arrowhead are and whether they're connected or not.

[TroyF]

I read the scouts report on Belcher from ESPN insider. There is a line in there that would have sounded a lot less poor yesterday:

He is quick to locate the ball and is quick to pull the trigger and fill.

What a horrific incident.

[stevew]

I love the Twitter police who come out immediately and tell you how you should feel and act.

[JPhillips]

I'm curious as to whether it is standard to use this facility on game day. I don't see how you can bring players there tomorrow morning.

I'm assuming, but don't know, that practice has been cancelled today.

[Julio Riddols]

Well, there aren't any more bye weeks, so I can't see how they would be able to postpone the game, and cancelling it would be a detriment to the other team.. Moving the postseason back a week would be an option, but it wouldn't really be fair to give a team an extra bye week..

If I were a player, I think that I would want to get on the field and play and dedicate the game to him and his woman and his baby, maybe kick some of my game check to the grandparent to help take care of the child and be glad things weren't worse. I'd do as much as I could to get my mind off what happened.

[stevew]

The Redskins played the week after Sean Taylor got murdered. No point in even thinking that the game would be suspended when a murderer kills himself. Regardless of where it happened.

[Abe Sargent]

The Redskins played the week after Sean Taylor got murdered. No point in even thinking that the game would be suspended when a murderer kills himself. Regardless of where it happened.

I think that might be different for some. Taylor was "this happened to one of our own, we got his back." The other is one of their own did it. I'm not sure, one day later, there is as much of a rally point for some.

[Scoobz0202]

I'm reading that Pioli and/or Crennel confronted him in the parking lot to talk him down. He thanked them both and then killed himself in front of them.

Is this confirmed or still speculation?

e: Reading Pioli for sure. Crennel might be a wildcard. May have been other personnel. Double Edit: Now I read a source that said Crennel and others, but not Pioli. I'll just wait for confirmation. Twitter world makes this crazy to follow.

[mckerney]

Kansas City Star is staying Pioli, Crennel and other team personnel were present.

[tucker rocky]

A question that can't be answered, why?!?

Awful to see this tragedy.

[britrock88]

Awful. It's only the Panthers coming to town; cancel the game.

[Scoobz0202]

Awful. It's only the Panthers coming to town; cancel the game.

The Chiefs could just forfeit, right? They aren't fighting for a playoff spot or anything.

[IlliniCub]

I would assume that with tv contract, and all of that stuff the NFL wouldn't allow a forfeit but ya never know

[frnk55]

If they have a moment of silence tomorrow it should be for the victim not this fucking piece of shit.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Just awful.

They should forfeit the game, just because nobody's mind will actually be on the game. You can't play like that. It takes a minute to get your head together.

What an awful tragedy.

[Dutch]

So sad.

As for the game itself, I guess to us, the NFL is just for fun...it's "not really a job"...but to the players, it's their job. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with them showing up and playing the game on Sunday, that's for sure.

[stevew]

ESPN finally confirmed it, so it must be true.

[Abe Sargent]

Yeah, and ESPn puts both Crennel and Pioli there at the suicide as well.

[Ben E Lou]

"About (7:50 a.m), we got a call to a residence, in regards to a shooting, on the 5400 block of Crysler Avenue," Snapp said by phone. "We arrived and the lady there informed us that her daughter had been shot by her on-again, off-again boyfriend. The young woman was taken to a local hospital, where she died a short time later.

"At about 8:10 a.m., we received a call to the Arrowhead practice facility in regards to a black male armed with a gun in the parking lot, and he matched the description of the shooting suspect," Snapp continued. "Officers arrived, saw a black man with a gun to his head, and some Chiefs employees. As the officer got out of his car, he heard a gunshot. It appeared the individual shot himself. He was transported to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead."

According to Snapp, Chiefs general manager Scott Pioli, coach Romeo Crennel and another unnamed Chiefs staff member were talking to Belcher just before he shot himself, Breer and NFL.com's Ian Rapoport reported. Snapp said Pioli and Crennel "never felt like they were in danger." Belcher thanked Pioli and Crennel for all that they had done for him.

When officers arrived, Belcher walked in the opposite direction from where they were all standing. He then shot himself, Snapp said.

Snapp said the shooting occurred outside the front doors of the facility.

.

[Ben E Lou]

Source: Belcher murder-suicide followed argument over Trey Songz concert - KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/01/3943363/source-belcher-murder-suicide.html)

[Ben E Lou]

Chiefs-Panthers game appears to be on schedule - KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/01/3943244/chiefs-panthers-game-appears-to.html)

[EagleFan]

If they have a moment of silence tomorrow it should be for the victim not this fucking piece of shit.

+1111111111111111111111111111111111111111

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I haven't watched the Chiefs this year or really paid much attention to them. He was their starting MLB?

[Julio Riddols]

Over a Trey Songz concert, and in front of her mother, presumably with the baby nearby? Wow.

[kingfc22]

If they have a moment of silence tomorrow it should be for the victim not this fucking piece of shit.
:+1:

[EagleFan]

WTF is a Trey Songz?

[kcchief19]

The Chiefs had a team meeting/walk through scheduled this morning after the shooting and it was moved to the stadium. The practice facility is located across the parking lot from the stadium near one of the entrances to the stadium. Fans attending the game will/would drive by the practice facility if that entrance is open tomorrow.

The reports are that players arriving at the facility saw Belcher in his car appearing troubled and that Pioli and Crennel went out to talk to him. He thanked them for everything they had done for him and then shot himself when police arrived.

Just horrific and terribly sad.

[Ryan S]

They should forfeit the game, just because nobody's mind will actually be on the game. You can't play like that. It takes a minute to get your head together.

I can't see the NFL allowing a forfeit, especially when it could have an impact on the number one draft pick.

If they reschedule the game, I suppose it could move to Monday or Tuesday, but would that really make any difference? Anything beyond that could mess up the schedules of other teams.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I can't see the NFL allowing a forfeit, especially when it could have an impact on the number one draft pick.


The Chiefs will lose by 30. Hopefully nobody gets hurt.

[Abe Sargent]

I would like them to move the game to Thursday night Week 18, just before the playoffs begin and after the regulra season ends.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

How will Romeo be able to coach a game just over 24 hours after watching his player blow his head off? What sort of prep will go into the game from this point forward? Whose head will be in this game? It's too soon.

The NFL should be more concerned with the people involved and the product they put on the field, than just putting something out there.

[larrymcg421]

I would like them to move the game to Thursday night Week 18, just before the playoffs begin and after the regulra season ends.

They can't do this while the Panthers still haven't been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.

[EagleFan]

Edit this bitch...

[stevew]

I would like them to move the game to Thursday night Week 18, just before the playoffs begin and after the regulra season ends.

It would be wayyyyy different if the player got shot and killed in the parking lot by an assailant or something. It was either suicide or getting shot down by cops for this piece of trash.

[Young Drachma]

From the NFL rules, re: forefeit

• Forfeit . The Commissioner, (except in cases of disciplinary action; see last section on "Removing Team from Field"), League President, and their representatives, including referees, are not authorized unilaterally to declare forfeits. A forfeit occurs only when a game is not played because of the failure or refusal of one team to participate. In that event, the other team, if ready and willing to play, is the winner by a score of 2-0.

There's never been a forfeit in modern NFL history, so I don't think that'll happen.

[stevew]

Nobody's blaming this on Adderall Rage.....yet.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

24 hours ago if you told him that he would have killed her, then himself I am sure he would have told you you were insane.

It's amazing what people are capable of... over nothing.

[stevew]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Kansas City was a movie last night! Chitown we here baby!!!!!!</p>&mdash; Trey Songz (@TreySongz) <a href="https://twitter.com/TreySongz/status/274956370745376768" data-datetime="2012-12-01T19:21:21+00:00">December 1, 2012</a></blockquote>
<script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Young Drachma]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>I don't delete tweets, nor am I insensitive to death. I had no knowledge of the murder/suicide incident until now &amp; even still...</p>&mdash; Trey Songz (@TreySongz) <a href="https://twitter.com/TreySongz/status/274977130738237440" data-datetime="2012-12-01T20:43:51+00:00">December 1, 2012</a></blockquote>
<script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>As sad as it may be, it has nothing to do with me. Sending prayers up to the families and friends of the people involved</p>&mdash; Trey Songz (@TreySongz) <a href="https://twitter.com/TreySongz/status/274977516010209280" data-datetime="2012-12-01T20:45:23+00:00">December 1, 2012</a></blockquote>
<script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[stevew]

it's good that someone finally contacted him....that was bizarre

[BishopMVP]

Nobody's blaming this on Adderall Rage.....yet.No, but the ESPN article did link it to the ex-NFL players who shot themselves due to PCS.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that "I don't delete tweets, nor am I insensitive to death" might have to become my life motto going forward. It's applicable in pretty much every context.

[claphamsa]

I understand this makes me a bad person... but my first thought was, should I now play steve smith at flex instead of owen daniels?

[bhlloy]

Any truth to the rumor he shot himself when both Pioli and Crennel assured him that they would both be with the Chiefs for many years to come?

[DanGarion]

it's good that someone finally contacted him....that was bizarre

I don't understand what this musical "artist" has to be sorry for...?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I'm wondering what the whole motivation was.. The facts are:

His mom was there visiting.

3-month old daughter.

They had recently been arguing.

She was out late at a concert, which upset him.

Leaving a 3-month old at home with her boyfriend (who had a lot of responsibilities to the team) and his mother, while staying out late for a concert while is kinda odd. Most new mothers are very protective and can't spend enough time with the baby. I would bet this is why they had been fighting, and why his mother was there. Nobody will probably ever know if his mom was being critical and a large source of the fighting, or if she showed up as a result of it to just help while the child's mother was out partying a lot.

That he shot her six hours after she got home might mean that her being out the night before probably isn't why he shot her. If it was, why wait six hours? Were they fighting the whole time or did they go to bed & get up fighting? He probably had to be at the facility for the walk through. Something this morning made him snap. Then he must have felt some form of guilt. If he didn't he would be in a jail cell right now instead of the morgue.

What a horrible, horrible tragedy.

[jeff061]

And there's also a million "facts" we will never know about. What's the point.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

it's bad taste but the fact pioli and crennel were the crises team amuses me

[Mustang]

If they have a moment of silence tomorrow it should be for the victim not this fucking piece of shit.

That was my thought. I saw a bunch of tweets saying 'RIP..'

At the end of the day, he killed the mother of his child and left a 3 month old child with no parents. So ya, not really sad for him at all.

[Scoobz0202]

That was my thought. I saw a bunch of tweets saying 'RIP..'

At the end of the day, he killed the mother of his child and left a 3 month old child with no parents. So ya, not really sad for him at all.

Yea. I understand he was probably mentally ill. I am not the type to criticize those who commit suicide, either. But when you take somebody with you all sympathy is gone.

[Lathum]

That was my thought. I saw a bunch of tweets saying 'RIP..'

At the end of the day, he killed the mother of his child and left a 3 month old child with no parents. So ya, not really sad for him at all.

Kind of my thoughts. If the NFL, the Chiefs, or their plays spend one second trying to make him into some kind of victim or martyr I'll lose all respect for them.

[stevew]

it's bad taste but the fact pioli and crennel were the crises team amuses me

Yeah. Me too.

[kcchief19]

Two lives were lost and both were tragedies. By all accounts, Jovan Belcher was a good guy. Clearly, something terrible happened to him to cause what happened today. Would it have been better if he only took his only life? Sadly, yes. But that doesn't mean his loss isn't something to mourn. I don't see any problem having a moment of silence for all of today's victims.

As for playing the game, I've seen some pretty idiotic columns on both sides, mostly saying don't play the game. I don't think it's up for any of us to decide. To me, the guys who should make the decision to play tomorrow are the 53 guys on the team, Crennel, Pioli and Gary Gibbs. If they want to play, let them. The reports are that those three and the team captains all voted to play, and that's good enough for me.

We've probably all worked with people who have died while we worked with them. I've worked with people who died in car accidents, illness, suicide and crime. It's horrible every time. But every time, we've all been expected to get back to work. It's tough, but it's what we do.

[kcchief19]

The Chiefs will lose by 30. Hopefully nobody gets hurt.
It can go both ways. How many times have we seen a player or a team suffer a tragedy and go out and play with such emotion that they win in a blow out? I could definitely see that happening here; the team hasn't player well, and tomorrow they aren't going to be dwelling on that fact. There won't be any boos tomorrow; the fans are going to be supporting this team like they haven't all season.

Then again, sometimes you come out flat. The Oklahoma State football team played the day the women's basketball coaches' plane crashed, and they were clearly out of sorts.

[PilotMan]

it's bad taste but the fact pioli and crennel were the crises team amuses me

I'm guessing that time and circumstance played the role here, not choice.

[miked]

I'm wondering what the whole motivation was.. The facts are:


Leaving a 3-month old at home with her boyfriend (who had a lot of responsibilities to the team) and his mother, while staying out late for a concert while is kinda odd. Most new mothers are very protective and can't spend enough time with the baby. I would bet this is why they had been fighting, and why his mother was there. Nobody will probably ever know if his mom was being critical and a large source of the fighting, or if she showed up as a result of it to just help while the child's mother was out partying a lot.


This is beyond silly. I don't even know where to begin...

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

I'm guessing that time and circumstance played the role here, not choice.
i know. but every atom in my body wants to make a slew of bad jokes

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Her facebook page is still up.

http://www.facebook.com/kasandra.m.perkins

[Abe Sargent]

Good luck KC



Today, we are all Chiefs

[stevew]

Why are we chiefs?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

It can go both ways. How many times have we seen a player or a team suffer a tragedy and go out and play with such emotion that they win in a blow out? I could definitely see that happening here; the team hasn't player well, and tomorrow they aren't going to be dwelling on that fact. There won't be any boos tomorrow; the fans are going to be supporting this team like they haven't all season.

Then again, sometimes you come out flat. The Oklahoma State football team played the day the women's basketball coaches' plane crashed, and they were clearly out of sorts.

Perhaps I was wrong...

[IlliniCub]

And hearing reports a Cleveland Browns employee committed suicide at their practice facility

[DanGarion]

And hearing reports a Cleveland Browns employee committed suicide at their practice facility

Great, is this the new thing?

[Chief Rum]

Am I the only one that doesn't view Belcher as a piece of shit, but instead as a victim of whatever mental illness he had? Because normal, stable people don't react this way and they certainly don't shoot others.

I think Belcher was likely a complete emotional mess, and we would be foolish to not consider the stress, possible PEDs and concussive hits that go along with being an NFL player.

Not trying to make excuses for the guy, just saying I'm not so sure we should so quickly thow him under the bus.

I view him and his GF as victims of the circumstances, as much as his own malicious actions.

[jeff061]

If we saw this happening more often with other people living a similar lifestyle, maybe it's a talking point, but we don't.

So he's a piece of shit.

[molson]

Am I the only one that doesn't view Belcher as a piece of shit, but instead as a victim of whatever mental illness he had? Because normal, stable people don't react this way and they certainly don't shoot others.

I think Belcher was likely a complete emotional mess, and we would be foolish to not consider the stress, possible PEDs and concussive hits that go along with being an NFL player.

Not trying to make excuses for the guy, just saying I'm not so sure we should so quickly thow him under the bus.

I view him and his GF as victims of the circumstances, as much as his own malicious actions.

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I see domestic violence as more of a scourge on society than a product of mental illness. It's rampant, and occasionally rises to the level of murder. Many (maybe most) domestic batterers don't show any sign of violence in the rest of their lives. To their family and friends, "this wasn't like them." Almost every time. They just didn't know because they weren't the abuser's wife/girlfriend and things were kept quiet, usually with the help of the wife/girlfriend. The odds are good that Belcher had been violent or at least controlling with girlfriends in the past. It's a character flaw that many men have, and with the right spark, it leads to tragedy. I just see him as a run-of-the mill domestic batterer, because odds are, that's what he was. Unless there's some evidence that he also suffered from specific mental illness. Because Domestic violence on is own isn't a sign of mental illness, it's a sign that he had a pretty common negative character flaw with regard to intimate relationships.

[DanGarion]

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I see domestic violence as more of a scourge on society than a product of mental illness. It's rampant, and occasionally rises to the level of murder. Many (maybe most) domestic batterers don't show any sign of violence in the rest of their lives. To their family and friends, "this wasn't like them." Almost every time. They just didn't know because they weren't the abuser's wife/girlfriend and things were kept quiet, usually with the help of the wife/girlfriend. The odds are good that Belcher had been violent or at least controlling with girlfriends in the past. It's a character flaw that many men have, and with the right spark, it leads to tragedy. I just see him as a run-of-the mill domestic batterer, because odds are, that's what he was.

Really you think being controlling and violent is a character flaw that many men have? Many? really? Many?

[molson]

Really you think being controlling and violent is a character flaw that many men have? Many? really? Many?

Controlling or violent (or emotionally abusive), yes, many men have that flaw. We could debate what "many" means, but Im using that word as meaning I believe its more prevalent than general society thinks, and its not something that only "crazy" or otherwise "violent" men engage in. (Edit: And I would say "most" instances of domestic violence aren't reported, and that relationships that involve emotional abuse can potentially become violent with the right trigger.)

[DanGarion]

Controlling or violent (or emotionally abusive), yes, many men have that flaw. We could debate what "many" means, but Im using that word as meaning I believe its more prevalent than general society thinks, and its not something that only "crazy" or otherwise "violent" men engage in. (Edit: And I would say "most" instances of domestic violence aren't reported, and that relationships that involve emotional abuse can potentially become violent with the right trigger.)

When I hear the word many, it makes me think a majority, and I honestly disagree with you about that. More men than women yes, but it's not many.

I do agree with you on the other points though.

[molson]

When I hear the word many, it makes me think a majority, and I honestly disagree with you about that. More men than women yes, but it's not many.

I do agree with you on the other points though.

Well, I wouldn't say straight-up majority, just more common than general society might think, just because so much of it is private and in the home. And for the same reasons, a guy "not showing signs of violence" isn't really surprising. Point being, when I hear about domestic violence, I don't think, "that guy must have had a serious mental illness", more like, "that guy's a domestic batterer."

Edit: And hey, maybe he was a paranoid schizophrenic with delusions and we didn't know about it or it hadn't been diagnosed yet, but it's just much more likely someone shows public signs of having that degree of mental illness than they necessarily would show public signs of being a domestic batterer or controlling, etc. - the latter is much easier to hide, because it is, almost by definition, private.

[Chief Rum]

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I see domestic violence as more of a scourge on society than a product of mental illness. It's rampant, and occasionally rises to the level of murder. Many (maybe most) domestic batterers don't show any sign of violence in the rest of their lives. To their family and friends, "this wasn't like them." Almost every time. They just didn't know because they weren't the abuser's wife/girlfriend and things were kept quiet, usually with the help of the wife/girlfriend. The odds are good that Belcher had been violent or at least controlling with girlfriends in the past. It's a character flaw that many men have, and with the right spark, it leads to tragedy. I just see him as a run-of-the mill domestic batterer, because odds are, that's what he was. Unless there's some evidence that he also suffered from specific mental illness. Because Domestic violence on is own isn't a sign of mental illness, it's a sign that he had a pretty common negative character flaw with regard to intimate relationships.

I hear ya, molson, and I know you saw a lot of this in your line of work. I generally agree with you that domestic violence is a scourge on society, and that its perpetrators are criminal assholes who are fully cognizant of their actions, or the susceptibility they have to the rgae that leads to theose incidents.

What is different here to me is that this is a murder-suicide. When a man hurts or kills a woman in a domestic violence incident, throw the book at him, because he is almost certainly willfully made the decision to do what he did and then followed through with it.

Suicide? That's a whole other ball of wax. I don't believe suicide is an option any clearheaded and well person makes outside of extraordinary circumstances. I don't think Belcher was well at all for him to do what he did to himself (much less anyone else).

[Fidatelo]

Suicide? That's a whole other ball of wax. I don't believe suicide is an option any clearheaded and well person makes outside of extraordinary circumstances. I don't think Belcher was well at all for him to do what he did to himself (much less anyone else).

Maybe realizing that he had just killed his girlfriend and was about to go to jail for a long time was the extraordinary circumstance?

[Chief Rum]

Maybe realizing that he had just killed his girlfriend and was about to go to jail for a long time was the extraordinary circumstance?

Possible. But then I would think that his original decision to shoot his GF was not made in a rational frame of mind at all.

My concept of the "evil domestic abuser", as it were, is a guy who actively and rationally chooses to hurt his wife/GF/partner. He has little real guilt about it, views it as his right or justifies it in some way. That's not a guy who gets all bent out of shape with the guilt, and who I believe completely deserves to go to prison.

Belcher sounds like a guy who went into an uncontrollable rage and shot his GF, never clearly considering the consequences. Then he calmed down and realized what he had done. He did this in front of his own mother and his three-month old daughter. That doesn't sound like a rational decision to me (anymore than the suicide).

Again, not someone that is necessarily better than the previous "evil domestic abuser", but the circumstances aren't quite the same in my mind. I agree with not honoring him and making this about honoring domestic abuse victoms and working to protect future victims, but everything about what Belcher did says rage was at the base of it, and we're talking, again, about an NFL player, who, by definition, lives a stressful life (especially in-season), probably takes steroids and has no doubt taken hundreds of violent hits to the head since he was in Pop Warner.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Kansas City Chiefs had provided counseling to Jovan Belcher, Kasandra Perkins - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8708333/kansas-city-chiefs-had-provided-counseling-jovan-belcher-kasandra-perkins)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Kansas City Chiefs had provided counseling to Jovan Belcher, Kasandra Perkins - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8708333/kansas-city-chiefs-had-provided-counseling-jovan-belcher-kasandra-perkins)

That makes a whole lot more sense as to why Pioli and Crennel didn't have to ask any questions when he showed up.

[stevew]

Jamal Charles has to be feeling pretty bad. He set the couple up(victim was his wife's cousin)

[jeff061]

Seeing a lot of Belcher apologists out there. It's a little unnerving.

[molson]

Seeing a lot of Belcher apologists out there. It's a little unnerving.

Just wait until his brain shows "CTE" (which has now been found in 34 of the 35 tested NFL players brains).

[Glengoyne]

It was a bit annoying Sunday to see all of the players discussing his "loss". Now I get it that he was their friend and all of that, and the terrible toll of those unfortunate enough to be present with him. That said, he wasn't the victim here. He was the ass hole. At least the Chiefs had the common sense to hold a moment of silence "for the victims of domestic abuse".

[Abe Sargent]

It was a bit annoying Sunday to see all of the players discussing his "loss". Now I get it that he was their friend and all of that, and the terrible toll of those unfortunate enough to be present with him. That said, he wasn't the victim here. He was the ass hole. At least the Chiefs had the common sense to hold a moment of silence "for the victims of domestic abuse".

I don't think we have the right to be upset at friends who are sad about this.


When my friend and her daughter were the victim of a murder suicide b y their husband, one of the thoughts I had was that it was easy to hate him, because I had never met him. I tried to imagine what it must be to be on the other side, and have one of your buddies, co-workers, etc just come out of nowhere and pull this. How do you react?

Without being there, can we really judge these people for their honest feelings? Really? Sure, the guy's an asshole, but his friends were just hit by a massive shock, and you get annoyed by their response?

We just don;t have that right to judge them like that.

[jeff061]

Yeah, I'm not upset from his friends. Just listening to the radio, random people call up all day insisting she must have done something to set him off, that she is likely to blame to some extent. I get the feeling there is a decent sized group of people that actually believe this.

[kcchief19]

The story is just getting more sordid and bizarre. Now it appears that Belcher was out partying Friday night, not sitting at home waiting for her to show back up. In fact, witnesses say he was at another woman's apartment at 1 a.m., the time his girlfriend arrived home from the concert. The witnesses, say he has been to the other woman's apartment several times, and police approached him outside her apartment about 2:30 a.m. that morning because he was sleeping in his Bentley on the street.

Before shootings, Belcher spent part of morning at Armour Boulevard apartment - KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/04/3948005/before-shootings-belcher-spent.html)

We only have a snapshot here, but the details we were getting this afternoon make it seem more and more likely than Belcher had some sort of mental issue going on or developing. Some of the details make it seem like he may have been bipolar or something.

[molson]

The story is just getting more sordid and bizarre. Now it appears that Belcher was out partying Friday night, not sitting at home waiting for her to show back up. In fact, witnesses say he was at another woman's apartment at 1 a.m., the time his girlfriend arrived home from the concert. The witnesses, say he has been to the other woman's apartment several times, and police approached him outside her apartment about 2:30 a.m. that morning because he was sleeping in his Bentley on the street.

Before shootings, Belcher spent part of morning at Armour Boulevard apartment - KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/04/3948005/before-shootings-belcher-spent.html)

We only have a snapshot here, but the details we were getting this afternoon make it seem more and more likely than Belcher had some sort of mental issue going on or developing. Some of the details make it seem like he may have been bipolar or something.

So he went to his other girlfriend's house but she wasn't letting him stay over so he pouted in the parking lot for while. Not really all that "bizarre" for an immature tool in their early 20s.

It's possible that he was just a douchebag jock domestic abuser who finally snapped, and then cowardly hid from the consequences. At the end of the day though, he'll probably end up with a medal or something.

[molson]

Dola, there were early signs of his domestic abuser tendencies back at UMaine:

http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/Jovan-Belcher-cut-hand-after-punching-window-while-at-Maine.html?pageType=mobile&id=1

[molson]

Yeah, I'm not upset from his friends. Just listening to the radio, random people call up all day insisting she must have done something to set him off, that she is likely to blame to some extent. I get the feeling there is a decent sized group of people that actually believe this.

Oh ya (you might have actually heard this on WEEI)

CRAZY CALLER DEFENDS JAVON BELCHER (http://audio.weei.com/a/67439632/crazy-caller-defends-javon-belcher.htm)

[jeff061]

YES! I was listening to that live. But there were many others as well with a similar message. D&C did a great job with that guy, that clip is heavily edited.

[stevew]

How does a guy making 1.9m afford a Bentley? craziness.

[kcchief19]

It's possible that he was just a douchebag jock domestic abuser who finally snapped, and then cowardly hid from the consequences. At the end of the day though, he'll probably end up with a medal or something.
No chance of the medal. Clearly the team is the most conflicted about his legacy, but so far they are making the right chooses in focusing on the victim.

We might find that he's a douchebag, but it still seems like a guy with problems and something snapping. He and his girlfriend were in counseling provided by the team to address financial and relationship problems.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I clearly was one who thought there may have been some catalyst from her (I watched a friend's wife walk out on him & their 2 kids, age 2 & 1, because she said she had them too young & didn't have a chance to live a life)

It certainly looks like he had some major problems. One thing that stood out in the things the Chiefs were counselling them on was finances... He wasn't the highest paid player on the team, but he had enough to drive a Bentley. She was taking a break from community college and had been with him three years. I see a bit of a difference here financially.

Seems like he was a guy who didn't know how to deal with much in life. He wants to have a on-again off-again girlfriend who just had his kid AND have a girlfriend? Fine. Whatever. Be an asshole. There's no need to go shooting her nine fucking times.

As far as the people who consider his death a loss, I am sure it is to them. They knew him, or thought they knew him. I'm also sure that what he did makes it damn difficult to understand why he is dead, as it's something that seems like it could have been so easy to avoid. (Don't kill her or yourself. Seems pretty fucking simple.)

[BishopMVP]

Yeah, I'm not upset from his friends. Just listening to the radio, random people call up all day insisting she must have done something to set him off, that she is likely to blame to some extent. I get the feeling there is a decent sized group of people that actually believe this.Just look at the number of Chris Brown apologists out there. Yeah, it's very doubtful that either party is blameless in anything, but it's sickening how large a portion of the population is willing to defend domestic abusers. I've had women piss me off a number of times and the answer has never been hitting them, let alone killing them.

And I don't care if he had CTE too - a whole lot of people do, and their response isn't to murder other people.

[Glengoyne]

I don't think we have the right to be upset at friends who are sad about this.




I agree. It can't be easy for those guys. I just couldn't help being bugged by the interviews with player after player lamenting his loss, none of them that I saw were lamenting what he had done.

I don't hold it against them, I'll just say I was disappointed that there wasn't even one interview that alluded to the heinous nature of Belcher's actions.

[Fidatelo]

I have a hard time with the whole 'mental illness' excuse. You could argue that anyone who ever does anything egregiously wrong has a 'mental illness'. Used to be we called those folks 'murderers' or 'degenerates' or 'assholes'.

I think at the end of the day, in my head, once you murder someone else you cross the line from being sympathetic in any way to just plain being a monster. I don't care if you heard voices in your head or were super angry or whatever. We all have a level of responsibility on this planet and in this society and if you can't maintain even the most basic component of that then you need to be removed from it. If you couldn't recognize that you were heading down that path and remove yourself from it before you destroyed the life of someone else then I just don't think I can feel bad for you.

Maybe that's harsh, and maybe if some co-worker or friend or family member of mine did something horrible it might alter my perceptions in a way I can't account for, but from where I sit right now this Belcher guy did something absolutely horrible and the only people I feel bad for are everyone around him that has been left damaged by his atrocious actions.

[molson]

I have a hard time with the whole 'mental illness' excuse. You could argue that anyone who ever does anything egregiously wrong has a 'mental illness'. Used to be we called those folks 'murderers' or 'degenerates' or 'assholes'.

I think at the end of the day, in my head, once you murder someone else you cross the line from being sympathetic in any way to just plain being a monster. I don't care if you heard voices in your head or were super angry or whatever. We all have a level of responsibility on this planet and in this society and if you can't maintain even the most basic component of that then you need to be removed from it. If you couldn't recognize that you were heading down that path and remove yourself from it before you destroyed the life of someone else then I just don't think I can feel bad for you.

Maybe that's harsh, and maybe if some co-worker or friend or family member of mine did something horrible it might alter my perceptions in a way I can't account for, but from where I sit right now this Belcher guy did something absolutely horrible and the only people I feel bad for are everyone around him that has been left damaged by his atrocious actions.

Ya, Jerry Sandusky clearly had some issues with mental health. So how can we judge him, we don't know what it's like to have those inappropriate sexual attractions, and the accompanying mental disorder that convinces someone that acting on those attractions is OK, and even an expression of love.

Thinking about it more, I guess having different rhetoric and viewpoints about criminals isn't itself harmful. It doesn't really matter if someone has sympathy for Belcher or Sandusky. The important thing is that one's removed from society forever, and the other one would have been if he didn't kill himself. On the other hand though, that rhetoric is in the criminal justice system and it does impact how defendants are managed now. Everyone should be treated humanely and we should greatly increase access to mental health treatment in prison, but when we get closer to writing off instances of domestic violence and think we can fix the problem by sending someone home with a prescription and a therapy appointment, it gets a little scarier. BUT...crime is also way, way down in this country, so we're clearly doing something right. Which may go to show that in THIS environment, if you're still acting out violently, in society where crime is in a free fall, you're probably beyond hope.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Kasandra Perkins, slain girlfriend of Kansas City Chiefs LB Jovan Belcher, shot nine times -- autopsy - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8843179/kasandra-perkins-slain-girlfriend-kansas-city-chiefs-lb-jovan-belcher-shot-nine-times-autopsy)

[stevew]

Yeah but he kissed her and said he was sorry.

Poor baby is in a huge custody battle and she's going to receive a rather large amount of money over the next few years. Hopefully the best interest of the kid is protected.

[molson]

Yeah but he kissed her and said he was sorry.

Poor baby is in a huge custody battle and she's going to receive a rather large amount of money over the next few years. Hopefully the best interest of the kid is protected.

I think if your relative kills his wife, fighting for custody of the kid is kind of poor form.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Hopefully this is the beginning of a new start that ends well for the baby.

Judge awards cousin custody of Jovan Belcher's daughter - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000213664/article/judge-awards-cousin-custody-of-jovan-belchers-daughter)