Baseball Fans: Pujols or Soriano

[primelord]

This is my first poll. :)

Some buddies of mine and I were talking about who we would rather have to build a team between Pujols or Soriano. Being the homer that I am I of course would go with Pujols, but I wanted to see what you guys thought. Here are the stats.

This Season
Name G Ab R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pujols 24 68 21 26 6 0 5 17 12 6 0 0 .382 .470 .691 1.161
Soriano 27 124 26 46 6 1 9 25 10 21 6 1 .371 .435 .653 1.088

Career
Name G Ab R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pujols 342 1248 251 405 93 6 76 274 153 168 3 7 .325 .403 .591 .994
Soriano 372 1452 238 419 94 6 69 204 63 321 92 29 .289 .325 .504 .829

[MizzouRah]

That's a no-brainer. :)


Hurt arm and all, did you see him pop two out last night?

Poo-Poo is the man!!


Todd

[WSUCougar]

I, too, must confess to homerism with Pujols, but the guy is simply incredible. Consistent excellence.

Soriano is certainly an awesome talent as well.

[Ryche]

They're both great, but it's a lot harder finding a second baseman who puts up numbers like Soriano than to find an outfielder with numbers similar to Pujols. Not to mention Soriano is a lot better defensively ( I think, I could very well be wrong here as I haven't seen them play enough. )

[MrIllini]

mind you that he has fewer AB's because he has been battling injuries, and still has production numbers similar to Soriano

[Butter]

Look at that SB column.

Soriano.

[Samdari]

This is a complete no-brainer, Pujols is the best player to come along since Bonds. Soriano is the 4th best hitter on his own team, and his stats are more the result of hitting with allstars all around him than his own brilliance.

[RonnieDobbs]

Pretty close so far, my thoughts:

Soriano is pretty spectacular. He's got all the tools. But the arguments that he's better protected have some merit. I think Soriano will be a HUGE player.

But I think Pujols will be more. That man can hit the ball. I think he could be the premier player for the next ten years, much like Bonds. Gotta give him the nod.

I think both these guys are special though.

[MrIllini]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Look at that SB column.

Soriano.

Look at OBP and OPS.

Pujols.

[Marmel]

So it is still very early, but Soriano is (or was a day or three ago) #1 in BA, HR, RBI in the AL, and #2 in steals. To lead in all four would be somethng that only Ty Cobb has done in the last 100 years.

Soriano can hit for average, or for power, and he can fly around the bases. He was never a 2B, so he is still learning the position and will get better and better defensively. Most importantly, he is becoming much, much more patient at the plate. the upside on soriano, already great as he is, is simply amazing.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by MrIllini
Look at OBP and OPS.

Pujols.

I have to agree that I do like Pujols' plate discipline. Soriano has been an unbelieveable hitter, but you wonder if he can maintain that without walking more. From a fantasy standpoint....Soriano as a 2B is more valuable than Pujols as an OF....as a 3B though I think it could be a different story.

Oh, and SB's are overrated. Especially on the Yankees this year. Just get on base and someone will homer you in.

[MrIllini]

Originally posted by Marmel
So it is still very early, but Soriano is (or was a day or three ago) #1 in BA, HR, RBI in the AL, and #2 in steals. To lead in all four would be somethng that only Ty Cobb has done in the last 100 years.

Soriano can hit for average, or for power, and he can fly around the bases. He was never a 2B, so he is still learning the position and will get better and better defensively. Most importantly, he is becoming much, much more patient at the plate. the upside on soriano, already great as he is, is simply amazing.

yankees sympathizer

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by MrIllini
Look at OBP and OPS.

Pujols.

Gotta agree with MrIllini - the importance of OBP in particular is underappreciated by most baseball fans. And Pujols' plate discipline continues to improve with each passing year:

Year K:BB
2001 93:69
2002 69:72
2003 6:12

Soriano, on the other hand:

2001 125:29
2002 157:23
2003 21:10

Soriano's discipline actually got *worse* last year. Is this the year Soriano turns the corner with his plate discipline? Maybe, and if he does he'd get my nod over Pujols, if only because of his speed and position. But until Soriano can prove he's more disciplined at the plate, I've gotta go with Pujols.

[Marmel]

Please Mr. I. I lived in the St. Louis area for years and there are not a bigger bunch of sympathizers than Cardinal/Blues/Rams fans. I have never seen anything so ridiculous as the St. Louis sports scene....and I LIKE the Cards (hate the other two). just look at all the St. Louie's in this thread.

[MrIllini]

marm, I was just giving you shit, don't get your panties in a bunch

what is so ridiculous about the st louis sports scene?

I think the Blues choke just like everyone else in the country, I think the Rams are screwing the pooch and wasting their window of opportunity...the Cards are a different deal as far as st louis goes.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Ryche
They're both great, but it's a lot harder finding a second baseman who puts up numbers like Soriano than to find an outfielder with numbers similar to Pujols. Not to mention Soriano is a lot better defensively ( I think, I could very well be wrong here as I haven't seen them play enough. )

Actually, Soriano is probably the worst defensive 2B in the league currently. He made more errors than any 2B in the majors last year and had the worst fielding % of all 2B starters in the big leagues. I understand that raw fielding percentages are not the end-all stat, so to add to my point Soriano also finished 12th out of 14 AL starting 2B in Range Factor (source: Baseball Reference (http://www.baseballreference.com/leagues/AL_2002_field.shtml#2B)).

[Marmel]

Originally posted by MrIllini
marm, I was just giving you shit, don't get your panties in a bunch

what is so ridiculous about the st louis sports scene?

I think the Blues choke just like everyone else in the country, I think the Rams are screwing the pooch and wasting their window of opportunity...the Cards are a different deal as far as st louis goes.

I didn't know all that much about St. Louis sports when I moved there, so I was about as unbiased as you can get. I immediatly loved the Cards...how could you not?

The Rams were the joke of the league when I moved there, and I was a big Giants fan, so it was hard for me to like the Rams. Anyway, that year that Warner took over, the town completely jumped on the bandwagon, and now they are proclaimed the greatest show on Earth, and St. Louis is so proud of their team. Bullshit. It was the worst case of bandwagonning in SPORTS HISTORY! Makes me sick to this day to see all these 1998 Rams fans.

The Blues are a unique situation in that they are in the playoffs every single year, but never do anything once there. I got a sick pleasure watching the Blues fans be so sure of themselves, only to see it all come crashing down. Every year (when I was there, they were even the #1 seed a couple times I think), the fans just thought they were unbeatable, and Pronger was the best thing since sliced bread, and on and on and on.....the looks on their faces the day after elimination is still the stuff of dreams come through. :)

So, I spent 4 years in that city, took a big liking to the Cards and now completely despise the Rams and Blues. :)

[QuikSand]

In my mind, it probably depends on Pujols' actual age. If he really is just 23, then I think he's the guy I'd pick here. If he's really 26 or 27, he's still very impressive... but just a bit less so.

With Soriano, I think he's a case that's making baseball stat-heads rethink the value of batting eye (BB/K). He doesn't take walks, but he has some other combination of skills (bat speed and running speed) that certainly keeps him hitting. I realize that singular aberrations don't require that we tos out good models, but he's got a lot of people trying to come up with a defensible explanation for him.

[MrIllini]

Originally posted by Marmel
I didn't know all that much about St. Louis sports when I moved there, so I was about as unbiased as you can get. I immediatly loved the Cards...how could you not?

Agreed, one of the top 3 franchises in all of MLB, IMO.

The Rams were the joke of the league when I moved there, and I was a big Giants fan, so it was hard for me to like the Rams. Anyway, that year that Warner took over, the town completely jumped on the bandwagon, and now they are proclaimed the greatest show on Earth, and St. Louis is so proud of their team. Bullshit. It was the worst case of bandwagonning in SPORTS HISTORY! Makes me sick to this day to see all these 1998 Rams fans.

Agreed, but most folks are pretty tired of the Rams' losing despite all their talent. Hard to argue they're not a good team. The bandwagoning is bad, but that's a facet of sports. I'd venture to say that the Yankees probably have some bandwagoners, and they're a storied team. It just happens. I would say that maybe the Patriots fans are also guilty. It'll be a regular occurrence in today's "parity" NFL, where anyone can win the title any given year. You shoulda seen Bears fans last year... :)

The Blues are a unique situation in that they are in the playoffs every single year, but never do anything once there. I got a sick pleasure watching the Blues fans be so sure of themselves, only to see it all come crashing down. Every year (when I was there, they were even the #1 seed a couple times I think), the fans just thought they were unbeatable, and Pronger was the best thing since sliced bread, and on and on and on.....the looks on their faces the day after elimination is still the stuff of dreams come through. :)

Given 60 some years (I think) of no Cups, and frequent first round exits, I would say that few people say the Blues are "unbeatable." Or if they do, they're ignorant. Oh, and Pronger IS the best thing since sliced bread, when he's healthy.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by MrIllini
Agreed, one of the top 3 franchises in all of MLB, IMO.

[b]

Agreed, but most folks are pretty tired of the Rams' losing despite all their talent. Hard to argue they're not a good team. The bandwagoning is bad, but that's a facet of sports. I'd venture to say that the Yankees probably have some bandwagoners, and they're a storied team. It just happens. I would say that maybe the Patriots fans are also guilty. It'll be a regular occurrence in today's "parity" NFL, where anyone can win the title any given year. You shoulda seen Bears fans last year... :)

[b]

Given 60 some years (I think) of no Cups, and frequent first round exits, I would say that few people say the Blues are "unbeatable." Or if they do, they're ignorant. Oh, and Pronger IS the best thing since sliced bread, when he's healthy.

Um, I think they (Blues) entered the league the same year as the Flyers, around '67 or so.

[Marmel]

I am probably biased because when Pronger was in Hartford, he was such a lazy assed player. He never lived up to his potential here. the trade for Shanny was a no-brainer, and the Blues fans were pissed for well over a year about that one. I know he has improved quite a bit, but to me he is that same lazy d-man who was afraid of the corners.

I know there is bandwagoning in all sports, but the Rams were not even in St. Louis all that long before the entire city wrote them off. Rams tickets were the easiest ticket in town, and they were only in St. Louis for a few years. Usually it takes a decade of losing for that situation to occur.

I can't speak for the Bears, btu the Pats fans around here (and I am not a fan by any means) were pretty loyal through the bad years.

Mr I, I can't speak much for the last few years in St. Louis....I left in 2000. At that time the Rams were the toast of the town still, and the Blues were playing great regular season hockey for a few years, so expectations for both teams, and loyalty for both teams were probably at an ALL-TIME high.

I will never forget that sumer of 98 though. With my Yankees winning games at a record pace, and the Sosa/McGwire showdown all summer long (it didn't hurt that my guy got me tickets on a weekly basis to Cardinal games during that run to 70). I was fortunate enough to attend the game the following year as well when McGwire hit his 500th homer. Going to a Cardinal game is like no other experience in sports. I not only rank them in the top 3 for baseball, but probably the top 5 for sports. That would be a good topic for this board, don't you think?

[MizzouRah]

What do you expect with the shitty ass Cardinal football team here previously? I just want to see pro football.

Not all fans here 'jump on the bandwagon' so to speak. I laugh at the radio talk shows here, listening to people call in on how crappy the Blues are for not winning a cup. People like that are in the minority, imo. I support all St. Louis/Missouri teams no matter if they win or lose. Don't group us all together.

Todd

[oykib]

I'd take Soriano. Looking at this year's stats, Sori's got twice as many plate appearances. So, his numbers are more 'real' than Pujols'.

The main thing is that Soriano has chance to be truly historic, rather than just truly great.

The main thing is the position. You have to discount the numbers for a player who's primarily a LF because of the replacement level at that position. You have to do the reverse at 2B.

If Pujols were still a 3B or moved around a little more, it would be much closer.

BTW, Samdari, you my have made the most ridiculous baseball statement that I've ever heard. QotM material.

Soriano is a product of the other players in the lineup? What, he gets fastballs 'cause pitchers are afraid to walk him?

He puts up the production that he does because he has the fastest hands in the majors and is one of the best all-around athletes, also.

[MrIllini]

I think I just shat myself.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Originally posted by oykib
I'd take Soriano. Looking at this year's stats, Sori's got twice as many plate appearances. So, his numbers are more 'real' than Pujols'.

Pujols has been injured. More "real"? Are you trying to rival samdari?

The main thing is that Soriano has chance to be truly historic, rather than just truly great.

The main thing is the position. You have to discount the numbers for a player who's primarily a LF because of the replacement level at that position. You have to do the reverse at 2B.

No one seems to be doing that for Bonds. Soriano will not be historic. HoF maybe, long way off. He won't end world hunger or anything like that though.

Soriano is a product of the other players in the lineup? What, he gets fastballs 'cause pitchers are afraid to walk him?

Um, yes? Have you ever watched baseball before? Likely part of the reason he continues to hit for a high average while apparently having a below average batting eye.[/b][/quote]

He puts up the production that he does because he has the fastest hands in the majors and is one of the best all-around athletes, also.

Can we put this in QoTM next to samdari's post?

Marm, this guy has waaaay better Yankees blinders than you. ;)

[Marmel]

This year, they are not going to give Soriano nearly as much to hit.

In previous years, Jeter was in the 2 hole. this year it has been Nick Johnson...I even saw Todd Zeile in the 2 hole last night. those guys are hardly Derek Jeter-like in getting Soriano good pitches.

Yet, with Johnson the #2 man, Soriano is putting up career high numbers.

He might get a bit of benefit from being on such a strong team, but I don't think it is nearly enough to play into this discussion.

[primelord]

While I would still take Pujols. If you are talking about the strength of the bats around him I wouldn't say Edmonds, Rolen, Renteria etc are too shabby in their own right.

Edit: Fixed some bad typos

[oykib]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrIllini
I think I just shat myself.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Pujols has been injured. More "real"? Are you trying to rival samdari?



Numbers in a small amount of plate appearances lack the reality of numbers achieved in a greater number. In statistics they refer to 'sample size' when speaking about this phenomenon.

To put it simply: If you flip a coin three times and try to determine the likelihood that a certain result will come out, the result will be highly skewed. If you flip it nine times, it will be, at least, slightly skewed, and likely will be highly skewed. If you flip it eighty-one times, you are likely to achieve a result close to the real probability.

Whether or not Pujols has been injured or not doesn't affect it. When he gets to 120 AB, he's not likely to be at the .371 that Soriano is at. Soriano is not likely to maintain it either.

But Soriano has had this insane production for around 20% of his postions plate appearances for the season. Pujols has done it for about 10%.

[henry296]

Originally posted by MrIllini
I think I just shat myself.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Pujols has been injured. More "real"? Are you trying to rival samdari?

[b]



By more "real", he means there is a larger sample season and therefore more meaningful.

I would take Soriano over Pujols because of position, too.

Todd

[primelord]

Originally posted by henry296
By more "real", he means there is a larger sample season and therefore more meaningful.

I would take Soriano over Pujols because of position, too.

Todd

Does it not matter that he can't really field his position? I am sure you could put Pujols and second and he would make a bunchof errors too. :)

[MrIllini]

put 8 players like soriano in your lineup...

and you're likely to lose every game because of fielding errors :)

[oykib]

He's an adequate second baseman. And he was good at short in the minors. You are underestimating the rigors of playing the middle infield.

There's a reason that most teams put up with .250 hitters up the middle. You can't just stick anyone out there and expect even conceivably awful results.

This debate hinges on two things:

1. What is Pujols' real age? If Pujols is really twenty-three, then he may turn into Barry Bonds.


2. Is this the real Soriano. He's basically been this good since the end of 2001. So were talking about around ten months.
If this is the real Soriano, then we are seeing a power/speed combination that we've never seen in MLB.

[Butter]

MrIllini, your Cardinal blinders are pretty bad yourself. (Oh, wait, here's a ;) to make it cutesy) The disparity between these 2 players is not that great, yet to read your argument, you'd think Soriano was some half-wit playing for the Tigers or something. I think Soriano's speed gives him an advantage over Pujols. Speed can certainly make up an extra hit or two a week, which is a big BA difference maker. Being a Reds fan, though, I know we'll be getting sick of Pujols soon enough.

[Hammer755]

As an independent source (I like neither the Cards nor Yanks), I would take Pujols in a heartbeat over Soriano.

[tucker342]

tough choice, but I would take Pujols. Both are outstanding though

[dawgfan]

The big caveat in this conversation is Pujols real age - is he really 23? If not, how much older is he really?

If we take them at face value and assume Pujols' age is correct, then I have to go with him over Soriano.

Pujols has played 2 seasons and compiled very consistent numbers - 1.013 OPS his first season, 0.955 his second, and he's putting up similar numbers this season.

Soriano has played 2 full seasons, and has shown a lot of growth - 0.736 OPS his first season, 0.879 his second. He's on fire to start this season, but the question is will he keep this up? 124 AB is a pretty small sample size, and I would expect that he'll fall back a bit over the rest of the season. With Soriano, you have to wonder if he'll continue to improve, whether he's reached his peak already and will maintain it, or will his lack of plate discipline catch up to him like other free swingers of the past such as Juan Samuel.

Soriano is a poor fielder as pointed out, and currently there are about as many good hitting 2B as there are good hitting 3B, and 3B is where Pujols would be if not for Scott Rolen. Pujols is no Gold-Glover either, but he's no worse a 3B than Soriano is a 2B.

The SB totals for Soriano are nice window dressing, and he's been successful 76% of the time so he's not actually hurting the Yankees offense with his base-stealing, but I don't think the steals make up for the 0.165 difference in career OPS or the 2 years difference in age.

Even if Pujols is older than his listed age, if he's the same age as Soriano I still pick Pujols. If he's more like 27-28, then I think it's about a draw. The real question here is predicting future performance - will Soriano continue his improvement, level-off, or decline? Pujols has shown much greater consistency and has thus far shown clearly superior production. I think Soriano's free-swinging will eventually catch up with him...

[primelord]

I am curious why there isn't any question of Soriano's real age. They are both from the Dominican. And I am assuming thats why there is a question about Pujols real age.

[WSUCougar]

Although he said it in jest I think primelord's point is valid; we could stick Pujols at 2B and probably get the same defensive ability as you're getting with Soriano. I don't think it's fair to penalize Pujols for his position (particularly when LaRussa has continually moved him from 3B to 1B to LF and back again over the course of his short career), and even less so when Soriano does not excel defensively. Give me a Ryne Sandberg/Joe Morgan type of defensive player to go with the offense, and then we'll talk about extra points for playing 2B.

The speed point is a valid one. However, Pujol's excellent base-running and overall baseball savvy shouldn't be neglected. The guy is a student of the game, and it shows.

One final point, which may not have much bearing on the discussion but I think is worth mentioning: Pujols came out of NOWHERE. He was lucky to make the team out of spring training his first season, and did so only when Bobby Bonilla got injured. Soriano has been a lauded blue-chip for a long time.

[Vince]

Personally, I'm a professed Yankee hater, so it'll be hard to throw my bias out the window. But I'll try.

While I would love to have a guy like Soriano to build a team around, his plate discipline scares me WAY too much. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but the BB:K ratio he's putting up is absolutely horrible. I can't help but think that it's going to catch up with him at some point.

Pujols, on the other hand, has excellent plate discipline, OBP and OPS. One caveat with him, however, is that he is already battling injuries. However he continues to put up really good numbers, and it doesn't look like they are going down any time soon.

Then there's the matter of positional scarcity...it's much harder to find a 2B that will put up Soriano-like numbers than it is to find an OF with Pujols-like numbers. However, someone made a great point in that Soriano is a liability on defense...sure, he's learning the position, but that's still something to consider...

When all is said and done, unless Soriano does 'hit the wall' because of his horrible plate discipline, I think he'll be the better player. However, I think I'd still rather have Pujols, because in my mind, there is no risk in plate discipline for him.

[sterlingice]

Why did you give us an "other" choice? If I had to start a team, those guys would be in the top 10, but not my first two (some Arod and Vlad fellas spring to mind).

SI

[General Mike]

I think your overestimating the importance of the positions they played. If Pujols was on 85% of the teams in MLB, he'd be the starting 3B. He moved to LF originally because he and Placido Polanco were both going to be in the starting lineup, so they went with the better defensive setup.

The same thing happened to Chipper Jones. He moved to LF so the Braves could play that bum Vinny Castilla everyday, and he put up his same MVP type numbers, and he can't even make an all star game. You put him back at 3B, and his perceived value is going to go up immensely.

I mean Soriano is a really good player, definitely the best 2B in the American League right now, but he needs to improve his On Base Percentage.

I'd definitely love to have either guy on the Mets, but I'd rather have Pujols. 1B, 3B, LF, RF, wherever, just somewhere.

[ISiddiqui]

Pujols! He's a great hitter and an ok fielder. That career .400+ OBP is simply amazing for a power hitter like him. Soriano takes too many strikeouts, but very poor defensively.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Marmel
I am probably biased because when Pronger was in Hartford, he was such a lazy assed player. He never lived up to his potential here. the trade for Shanny was a no-brainer, and the Blues fans were pissed for well over a year about that one.

I'm going to totally disagree with this. Never lived up to his potential - he was 19 years old. The most embarassing night ever to be a Whaler fan? When they had Mike Keenan appreciation night at the Civic Center. Worst. Night. Ever.

[lynchjm24]

As for Soriano and Pujols. I'm a Yankee fan and would probably take Pujols. It doesn't seem like Soriano can keep the BB:K rate where it is and continue to produce like this.

On top of the fact that 2nd basemen have the second shortest careers of the position players and some of the sharpest declines.

As for defense, he does look better this season versus last.

[oykib]

I think that you'd have to watch Yankees games to understand that Soriano gets a bad rap as a defender. Jeter, also, but much less so than Soriano.

Actually, players on good teams tend to be undervalued in most defensive metrics. Yankees pitchers strike out a number of guys and don't walk almost anyone. That really hurts the stats of middle infielders in both RF and ZR because they don't get as many chances and they can't put up high DP numbers.

Watching a number of games will let you see that while Soriano makes a lot of errors, he gets to every ball you'd ask your @B to get to.

I think that comparing positions is valid. Ichiro could be a centerfielder. But he plays on a team with Mike Cameron. So, he's a rightfielder. He'd be more valuable as centerfielder. But history will compare him to other rightfielders, not centerfielders.

At the end of the line, no one ever said that Mickey Mantle was really the greatest ballplayer of all time because he came up as a shortstop. He could have played acceptably awful short for his career.

[primelord]

Just an update now that a little more than a month has past since I posted this poll.

Name G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pujols 60 211 52 82 22 0 16 51 23 19 0 1 .389 .448 .720 1.169
Soriano 62 277 51 83 11 3 18 42 20 58 17 2 .300 .357 .556 .913

It looks like Pujols is starting to pull away.

[QuikSand]

And so now that they've played nearly half a season (all of 60 games after all), we're declaring an end to the question "who is the better long-term investment to build your team around?" Interesting.

[primelord]

Originally posted by QuikSand
And so now that they've played nearly half a season (all of 60 games after all), we're declaring an end to the question "who is the better long-term investment to build your team around?" Interesting.

Is that what I said?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by primelord
It looks like Pujols is starting to pull away.

I dunno... what exactly did this mean?

"Pull away" is (by my reckoning) a racing term... we use it when one horse has another one (or all the rest) beaten, and the race is basically over. "Funny Cide is pulling away from the rest of the pack, the Preakness is over folks, he's going to win it easily!"

If all you're sying here is "for this year, so far, the stats support Pujols" then I'm perfectly fine. I just inferred (perhaps improperly) that you were suggesting "this is settling the bet."

[primelord]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I dunno... what exactly did this mean?

Well it wasn't meant to say it was a conclusive answer to the original question. It was directed specifically at their current stats for this year. However I guess I can see why you drew that conclusion.

I am just fascinated by how well Pujols is doing so I thought I would bump the thread and give an update on their stats.

Edit: Ok I see what you mean now. It was meant in terms of he is playing better this season. Not he is clearly the guy you want to build your team around long term based on the past 60 games.

[Travis]

Throw in Delgado and you'll have a real choice ;)

[cincyreds]

Both are fine players and very talented.

Soriano is about a year away from really breaking out.

I think if Soriano would cut down on the strikeouts, he would be the better player, but right now I have to say Pujols is the man!

[clintl]

They're both very good offensively, but Soriano is a terrible defensive 2B. I wouldn't surprised to see him moved to the OF at some point in his career. Pujols can play a lot of different positions adequately, so that, combined with his better overall offensive skills puts him ahead in my estimation.

I'd take Barry Zito over both. Great pitching is a lot harder to find than great hitting.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by clintl

I'd take Barry Zito over both. Great pitching is a lot harder to find than great hitting.

True...but did you see the question on the last Sunday Night baseball, asking which current player under 25 has the best shot at the HOF? The list, IIRC, was Pujols, Soriano, Mulder, Zito and Prior. Miller and Morgan discussed it a bit, and pointed out the great amount of uncertainty surrounding a pitcher's future - most notably the ability to stay healthy, but also other personal factors. Morgan made a good point that if the question would have been asked in the mid to late 80's, most would have chosen Dwight Gooden....

[clintl]

I agree with that. I'd still take Zito, though. There a lot of players that look like they have a good shot at the HOF at 25, but fade, and all of the players on the list could do that. Meanwhile, there are also sleepers that emerge several years later. Just look at the heralded rookie class of 1986. Jose Canseco, Will Clark, Wally Joyner, and probably a few others looked a lot better than Barry Bonds in those early years, and if you took that kind poll at the time, Bonds probably wouldn't have even been one of the choices. But he's now a lock, and those other guys are not even going to be close to making it.

[primelord]

Originally posted by Travis
Throw in Delgado and you'll have a real choice ;)

Delgado is a fine ball player, but I don't think anyone would take him over Pujols right now. Here are their numbers over the last 3 years.

Name G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pujols 378 1391 282 461 109 6 87 308 164 181 3 8 .331 .406 .606 1.012
Delgado 368 1310 261 375 85 3 91 277 256 313 4 0 .286 .418 .564 .982

They have very similar numbers with a slight edge going to Pujols. When you take that combined with the fact that Pujols is 7 years younger than Delgado and I don't think there is much of a choice to be made.

[Sharpieman]

Soriano is going to just get better, he has the perfect combination of speed, power and fielding. I believe Soriano has the potential to be the best player in the league for a long long time. And this coming from a SF fan and someone who HATES the Yankees with a passion

[Marmel]

At least defensively, soriano is going to make vast improvements. He has the range, and this is really only his 3rd year ever playing 2B. He was a shortstop since he learned to play the game.

[Cards4ever]

Here's some Pujols stuff that was put on ESPN today

http://espn.go.com/mlb/bestyounghitters.html

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2003/0617/1569141.html

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1569309.html

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/schwarz_alan/1568925.html

[Sharpieman]

I think I have to agree that I would take Zito over either, just because Zito has a curve that is almost unhittable, and he's the best young left hander in the game

[MizzouRah]

Great articles Cards4ever! Thanks!!


Todd

[lynchjm24]

If Pujols is really 23 then there isn't really much of a discussion to be had here. The only player you would debate with him at this point is A-Rod.

[Neuqua]

Mark Prior.

[mckerney]

I'll take Joe Mauer.

[ISiddiqui]

If Pujols is really 23 then there isn't really much of a discussion to be had here. The only player you would debate with him at this point is A-Rod.

I agree... can you imagine him at his 'prime' of 27-29? :eek:

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by mckerney
I'll take Joe Mauer.

You'd take someone who had 1 HR in A ball this season?

He's a tremendous prospect, but come on.

[Sharpieman]

How is Prior better than Zito? Did you forget that Zito has won the Cy Young already?

[mckerney]

I think you're forgetting that all the Twins not named Justin Morneau play smallball, so he should fit in nicely. Plus, once he starts up on the Sammy Sosa steroid program he should start to hit a few more.

[Neuqua]

I'm not necessarily saying he's better than Zito but keep in mind Prior just turned 22 years old.

[kcchief19]

I haven't watched a lot of Cardinals games the past couple of years, but I did watch tonight's game I-70 matchup with the Royals. At one point during the coverage they showed how far Pujols gets out of the on-deck circle toward home plate. He was practically standing behind home plate. Obviously, he is trying to gauge the pitcher's speed and timing. It isn't in the rulebook, but in the "honor" of baseball, most people consider this "unethical," if not cheating.

Paul Splittorff said he was surprised that a pitcher hadn't thrown a "wild pitch" in his direction, comparing it to when Ben Christenson bean Anthony Molina in the college ranks a few years back for doing the same thing. I have to admit, if there weren't a runner on base, I wouldn't mind seeing a pitcher let one loose in Pujols' direction. I can't believe how brazen he is about it. As hot as he is hitting, I think pitchers need to make him pay for this -- if you don't let one loose to the screen, then knock him down when he comes up.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by kcchief19
I haven't watched a lot of Cardinals games the past couple of years, but I did watch tonight's game I-70 matchup with the Royals. At one point during the coverage they showed how far Pujols gets out of the on-deck circle toward home plate. He was practically standing behind home plate. Obviously, he is trying to gauge the pitcher's speed and timing. It isn't in the rulebook, but in the "honor" of baseball, most people consider this "unethical," if not cheating.

Paul Splittorff said he was surprised that a pitcher hadn't thrown a "wild pitch" in his direction, comparing it to when Ben Christenson bean Anthony Molina in the college ranks a few years back for doing the same thing. I have to admit, if there weren't a runner on base, I wouldn't mind seeing a pitcher let one loose in Pujols' direction. I can't believe how brazen he is about it. As hot as he is hitting, I think pitchers need to make him pay for this -- if you don't let one loose to the screen, then knock him down when he comes up.

Yeah I would like to see that, then proceed to watch him kick the shit out of the pitcher. Would you throw at his head?

You're the first person I've ever heard mention this. Obviously, it doesn't bother other teams or you would hear them talking about it. Hot hitting? He has hit this way since he came up, he's just getting better as he learns more about hitting. I'm a homer, but this guy has nothing but determination and work ethic like no other. He's great for a game that's losing a ton of interest, especially from the diehard fans.

All that being said, I am also a Royals fan and since this is my first game I get to watch of them, I'm surpried at how good they hit as a team. All that tonight against Morris and without Sweeny, pretty impressive. We'll see how the rest of the series goes. I think Woody will notch us a win tomorrow.


Todd

[panerd]

Originally posted by Marmel
I didn't know all that much about St. Louis sports when I moved there, so I was about as unbiased as you can get. I immediatly loved the Cards...how could you not?

The Rams were the joke of the league when I moved there, and I was a big Giants fan, so it was hard for me to like the Rams. Anyway, that year that Warner took over, the town completely jumped on the bandwagon, and now they are proclaimed the greatest show on Earth, and St. Louis is so proud of their team. Bullshit. It was the worst case of bandwagonning in SPORTS HISTORY! Makes me sick to this day to see all these 1998 Rams fans.

The Blues are a unique situation in that they are in the playoffs every single year, but never do anything once there. I got a sick pleasure watching the Blues fans be so sure of themselves, only to see it all come crashing down. Every year (when I was there, they were even the #1 seed a couple times I think), the fans just thought they were unbeatable, and Pronger was the best thing since sliced bread, and on and on and on.....the looks on their faces the day after elimination is still the stuff of dreams come through. :)

So, I spent 4 years in that city, took a big liking to the Cards and now completely despise the Rams and Blues. :)

Amen. I am just getting to this thread now, but this synopsis is dead on. I wanted to cheer for the Rams, but the sudden masses of Ram's car flags and Warner jerseys was disgusting. I am getting prepared to be pissed by the Mizzou bandwagon growth in Saint Louis with the football and basketball seasons that loom ahead. (Has a team ever had the player of the year in both sports? Watch out for Brad Smith and Arthur Johnson)

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by panerd
Amen. I am just getting to this thread now, but this synopsis is dead on. I wanted to cheer for the Rams, but the sudden masses of Ram's car flags and Warner jerseys was disgusting. I am getting prepared to be pissed by the Mizzou bandwagon growth in Saint Louis with the football and basketball seasons that loom ahead. (Has a team ever had the player of the year in both sports? Watch out for Brad Smith and Arthur Johnson)

C'mon we haven't had decent football in quite some time!

;)

Pinkel's converted alot of people to Tiger football fans. I understand what you are saying, but I'm glad they're getting some press.

If we can beat Nebraska this year, I'm happy. I still remember the kicked ball touchdown. :(

Todd

[kcchief19]

Timing pitches is a pretty major offense in baseball. Don't misinterpret what I said -- I'm not advocating head hunting. I think Christenson just meant to dust Molina and missed. You whiz one back to the screen just to teach Albert a lesson. If that doesn't work, you brush him back when he comes to the plate. If Albert wants some after that, good luck. Any pitcher in baseball who dusted Pujols for this would have 24 guys having his back. Albert would never make it the mound. And if Kyle Farnsworth was the one dusting him ...

But this just goes back to the fact that most pitchers are afraid to pitch inside and most batters wear so much armor to the plate that brushing them back means very little. Barry Bonds gets hit by pitches as much as anybody in baseball, but I doubt a ball has actually hit his skin in years.

[MizzouRah]

Bring on Farnsworth! :)

You might have a point, but I don't see it. Baseball is a different game from years past. Pitchers used to hit batters all the time after a homerun, but that has changed.


Todd

[MizzouRah]

Pujols was batter of the month last month (May) when he hit 0.345, this month he's hitting 0.444! with 29 rbi's.

Watching this guy day in and day out really makes me appreciate how special this guy is.

Watching the Cards - Royals today in their respective negro leagues uniforms was quite a treat. I guess baseball is starting to get back into my life once again. Plus, as a bonus I got to see Jimmy Journel pitch. He was a little nervous, but I think he's going to be a decent starter later down the road.


Todd

[tucker342]

Pujols could challange for the triple crown this year... His numbers during June were fuckin incredible

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by panerd
Amen. I am just getting to this thread now, but this synopsis is dead on. I wanted to cheer for the Rams, but the sudden masses of Ram's car flags and Warner jerseys was disgusting. I am getting prepared to be pissed by the Mizzou bandwagon growth in Saint Louis with the football and basketball seasons that loom ahead. (Has a team ever had the player of the year in both sports? Watch out for Brad Smith and Arthur Johnson)

St. Louis Rams' fans are pretenders unless they were hardcore from the moment the team arrived. You want real Rams fans? Try all of us sufferers in Orange County, who curse the team every day, but struggle not to root for them because they were who we grew up with.

I still have a love/hate relationship with the Rams, although it's hate/hate with Georiga the Bitch and her lackey, John Shaw.

CR

[MizzouRah]

I guess that's the same as REAL Cardinals fans? Well, at least until the Rams came here. Too bad Bidwell up and left us here in St. Louis, even with all the bad years, it was our team.

Funny, how the Rams get here and we endure the same bad seasons, only this time the owners care about the team and hire excellent football minds. From there we get to see TWO Super Bowls! Something I thought I would NEVER see in my lifetime.

So, real Rams fans or not, they're our hometown team and I'll jump on the bandwagon, if that's what it's called. Win or lose, alot of people here in St. Louis have been fans right from the beginning, those who haven't didn't sit at Busch stadium in freezing weather witnessing the Cowboys kick the shit out of us time after time.

Football is back and interesting, so forgive some of us if we're a little giddy and seem like rookies to the football scene.


Todd

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
I guess that's the same as REAL Cardinals fans? Well, at least until the Rams came here. Too bad Bidwell up and left us here in St. Louis, even with all the bad years, it was our team.

Funny, how the Rams get here and we endure the same bad seasons, only this time the owners care about the team and hire excellent football minds. From there we get to see TWO Super Bowls! Something I thought I would NEVER see in my lifetime.

So, real Rams fans or not, they're our hometown team and I'll jump on the bandwagon, if that's what it's called. Win or lose, alot of people here in St. Louis have been fans right from the beginning, those who haven't didn't sit at Busch stadium in freezing weather witnessing the Cowboys kick the shit out of us time after time.

Football is back and interesting, so forgive some of us if we're a little giddy and seem like rookies to the football scene.


Todd

Having the Cardinals moved on you should make you understand how he feels.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by kcchief19
Timing pitches is a pretty major offense in baseball. Don't misinterpret what I said -- I'm not advocating head hunting. I think Christenson just meant to dust Molina and missed. You whiz one back to the screen just to teach Albert a lesson. If that doesn't work, you brush him back when he comes to the plate. If Albert wants some after that, good luck. Any pitcher in baseball who dusted Pujols for this would have 24 guys having his back. Albert would never make it the mound. And if Kyle Farnsworth was the one dusting him ...

But this just goes back to the fact that most pitchers are afraid to pitch inside and most batters wear so much armor to the plate that brushing them back means very little. Barry Bonds gets hit by pitches as much as anybody in baseball, but I doubt a ball has actually hit his skin in years.


Molina was a junior second baseman and the leadoff hitter for Evansville in an April 23, 1999 game at Wichita State. Christensen was the junior ace of the Shockers. When Molina ventured out of the on-deck circle and within 20 feet of home plate, Christensen fired a warmup pitch at him. The ball struck Molina above his left eye, breaking bones and permanently damaging his vision. At the time, Wichita State pitching coach Brent Kemnitz was quoted as saying that he taught his pitchers to brush back hitters in that situation.


Yeah, that sounds like he meant to dust him. I can't believe you are actually condoning that behavior. You plunk someone in the ribs, you DO NOT throw at his head. Especially when he is not even at the plate. Why not stop throwing at glare at the guy, there are other ways to get your message across without being a complete and total jackass.

[WSUCougar]

I for one think that what Pujols does (timing the pitcher WAY outside the on-deck circle) is flat-out wrong, and I am as die-hard a Cards fan as they come. I don't understand why teams don't protest it officially. That being said, throwing at him for it is inappropriate. If a guy puts pinetar too far up his bat, do you throw at that guy? Or uses a corked bat? Or does some other infraction along the same lines? Geez, Pujols is bending a rule and isn't being called on it. He's not commiting some major baseball crime.

To threadjack a little, the Cardinals offense right now is almost obscene. Pujols is having a truly memorable season - Mike Shannon has stated several times now that he is the best Cardinal player since Stan Musial. Streaky Jim Edmonds is "en fuego" again, and is tied for the NL lead in homers. When he's hot (and that's a big qualifier), there is no better player in baseball IMO. Edgar Renteria is quietly having a monster season, although his defense has been shaky of late. Tino Martinez (yes, I said Tino Martinez) is finally hitting like the player we thought we signed. Scott Rolen is running hot/cold, but is still contributing a lot. Throw in rookie "phenom" Bo Hart and his .466 average, and that's a lot of firepower.

Now if we only had some pitching. Losing Kiko Calero for the season is a major blow. Fassero is done. Jimmy Journel better be the answer, or we are in deep doodoo.

[Cards4ever]

I hear what you are saying WSU, I'm not saying timing pitches is the right thing to do, just that throwing at someone when they are not in a game situation is totally inappropriate.

The Cardinals are in desperate need of some kind of pitching help. I'm sure something is going to happen, it usually does, it will be interesting to see the price.

[MizzouRah]

Can we get a pitcher for Vina? :)

I hope JJ is the answer, I've been waiting for him to come up to see what he can do.

Tonight ought to be interesting with Morris missing his start and Haren pitching his first game against the Giants.

Todd

[WSUCougar]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
I hear what you are saying WSU, I'm not saying timing pitches is the right thing to do, just that throwing at someone when they are not in a game situation is totally inappropriate.
Yep, Cards4ever, we are in agreement. My comments were directed more at kcchief's remarks.

I'm not sure what value Vina has at this point. I love the guy, but he's got a notoriously low OBP and doesn't steal bases very well. He's great on defense, but is aging and has a high salary. I still think JD Drew is our best trade option at this point. I'd also go ahead and pay Chuck Finley whatever he's asking.

[WSUCougar]

dola

Interesting note in the Sporting News about Soriano. He's not even the best 2B in the AL at the moment! Brett Boone has better offensive stats and obviously is better defensively. Kinda funny...

[Anrhydeddu]

Amen. I am just getting to this thread now, but this synopsis is dead on. I wanted to cheer for the Rams, but the sudden masses of Ram's car flags and Warner jerseys was disgusting. I am getting prepared to be pissed by the Mizzou bandwagon growth in Saint Louis with the football and basketball seasons that loom ahead.

Now you are beginning to sound like me and my anti-hometeam rants. :)

All I can say that the teams that I like a lot, I am really glad that I don't live in any of those markets.

[Frozenrope]

As much as I hate to say it, I think Pujous is the best player in the major leagues right now. I can't believe that this guy hasn't slowed down since he came to the *ack!* Cardinals. I thought he would eventually have a sophomore slump or something, but he just gets better and better.


Still prefer Mark Prior, though. :)

[Frozenrope]

Originally posted by Sharpieman
How is Prior better than Zito? Did you forget that Zito has won the Cy Young already?



Ahem.... Prior is in Year 2 of his Major League career. He has a good shot at the CY Young this year. Let's wait 'till he's been here 3 years or so before we throw that argument up.

[WSUCougar]

Thought I'd bump this since Pujols is in the midst of a 20-game hitting streak (during which he's batting .400+) and has a decent shot at the Triple Crown. I don't get to see Soriano as much, and I know he is mired in a massive slump, but damn, Pujols is a force!

[primelord]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Thought I'd bump this since Pujols is in the midst of a 20-game hitting streak (during which he's batting .400+) and has a decent shot at the Triple Crown. I don't get to see Soriano as much, and I know he is mired in a massive slump, but damn, Pujols is a force!

I don't really think Pujols is much of a threat for the triple crown. He obviously has to be the favorite for the batting title and I think he has an excellent shot at the RBI crown, but I think he is going to fall short in HR's. Pujols just doesn't have a great home run swing. He hits the ball very hard almost all the time, but he hits too many line drives to make a real run at Bonds etc. That's not a bad thing, but I don't think you will see Pujols hitting 50 HRs a year. He is so strong and makes such good contact that I am sure he will always be around 35-40 and this year he may even get up around 45, but in todays game you need 50+ to lead the league.

[dacman]

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Pujols 112 422 99 157 40 0 30 99 287 49 41 2 1 .440 .680 .372
Soriano 107 473 80 133 19 4 24 60 232 26 91 27 5 .332 .490 .281

[kcchief19]

I've got to admit, I continue to be more and more impressed with Pujols as a player. There is still something that I can't quite place about him that makes me believe that I am not seeing what I think I am seeing -- that is, my eyes tell me that I'm seeing the second best player since Ted Williams, but my intuition says something just doesn't add up.

I will readily admit that I have a blind spot, because the attitude of a few too many Cardinals fans has made me look with disdain upon that franchise. My dislike of the Cardinals could very well be coloring my view of Pujols.

[primelord]

Just another Pujols update. He took over the NL HR lead last night and is only 8 RBI's shy of leading in the triple categories. Now I think it is still unlikely he will win the triple crown. An 8 RBI lead with only 16 games to play can be pretty tough to over come and Bonds is capable of belting 5 HR's in 3 days at the drop of a hat, but still Pujols just continues to pile up outstanding numbers.

[dacman]

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Soriano 138 609 101 172 32 5 29 75 301 34 118 33 8 .332 .494 .282
Pujols 141 529 126 194 46 1 41 121 365 67 56 4 1 .444 .690 .367

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by dacman

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Soriano 138 609 101 172 32 5 29 75 301 34 118 33 8 .332 .494 .282
Pujols 141 529 126 194 46 1 41 121 365 67 56 4 1 .444 .690 .367



In other words, no comparison. :)


Todd

[MizzouRah]

Soriano has been horrid in the postseason. The guy has lost it for some reason.


Todd

[IMetTrentGreen]

teams learned to pitch to him. he swings at everything, and can't catch up to a good inside fastball. there were other holes in his swing, too. he'll need to make some adjustments before he turns into a .260 hitter

[MizzouRah]

Well, will he make me eat those words?

Bases loaded, 2 outs, Soriano is up.



................. and the drama builds..........

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, he's having major trouble.



Todd

[Fonzie]

0 for 5, 4 strikeouts. Ouch.

[primelord]

There was an interesting comment in the paper today about Pujols and his contract situation. There is some concern that the Cardinals can't afford to give Pujols the kind of contract he wants to get him locked up long term. So apparently some of the big market clubs have been fishing around a bit to see if the Cardinals would have any interest in trading Pujols.

The irony is the Yankees apparently made a package offer that included Soriano. I guess even the Yankees wouldn't rather have Soriano than Pujols. :)

[Ksyrup]

I saw that. I wonder who the other players were in the package.

[WSUCougar]

Just my opinion, but the Cards must do whatever required to sign Pujols. It's not just about his relative value as a superstar player (which is undeniable). I think it has a huge bearing on how the franchise is perceived by fans, the baseball world, FAs, etc., particularly with the new stadium being constructed. GET IT DONE.

[Fonzie]

Just my opinion, but the Cards must do whatever required to sign Pujols. It's not just about his relative value as a superstar player (which is undeniable). I think it has a huge bearing on how the franchise is perceived by fans, the baseball world, FAs, etc., particularly with the new stadium being constructed. GET IT DONE.

What he said.

[primelord]

However they can't get into an Arod situation. What good does it do the Cardinals to be paying Pujols 18 million a year, but they can't put anyone around him? They have a self imposed 82 mllion dollar cap. They already have 10 million tied up in Rolen, and they are saying it will take another 10 million to lock up Renteria. So between those 3 you will have almost half your entire budget tied up in 3 players. Granted 3 great players, but you still haven't taken care of Morris at that point.

I would love for the Cradinals to get Pujols locked up, but not at the cost of any future success for the team. I already saw a one man show in McGwire. That was fun for awhile, but in the end I would rather see the team win than just see one great player do great things.

[HornedFrog Purple]

You have little to worry about, no one is as idiotic as the braintrust of Tom Hicks/John Hart.

[primelord]

You have little to worry about, no one is as idiotic as the braintrust of Tom Hicks/John Hart.

I don't know. The sentiment Coug expressed seems to be about the concensus around town. Everyone wants the Crads to sign Pujols no matter what it takes. But they are saying he wants in the range of 14-18 million a year. I just don't see how you can do that with a mid-market team and still put enough other talent around him to actually win.

Plus when you factor in the fact that they are having players defer money left and right that by the time Pujols hits the middle of his contract and his prime years. They may still be paying 10 million dollars a year out to players who don't even play for them anymore.

I certainly would hate to see Pujols go as it certainly seems he will only get better and in a few years could be the league's premiere player. But again watching McGwirehit 70 HRs was fun, but not nearly as fun as watching the Cardinals play in the playoffs. Seeing Pujols win a triple crown while wearing the birds on the bat would be great, but if they only win 65 games while he does it then who cares?

[Butter]

Seeing Pujols win a triple crown while wearing the birds on the bat would be great, but if they only win 65 games while he does it then who cares?

As a Reds fan, I'd have to say this sounds intriguing. Please tell me more about this "Cards sucking" idea.

Actually, the Reds have tried the whole "let's have heaps of money tied up in 2 players" thing. They are now going through their worst rebuilding process in 20+ years.

[Neuqua]

Nothing could bring a bigger smile to this Cubs fan than hearing that we won't have to deal with Pujols anymore for the next 5 years.

[Ksyrup]

What I've heard is an 8 year, $100M deal - $8M, $10M, and $12M for the next three years, then the subsequent 5 years on the same terms as Vlad Guerrero got this year.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay someone who has very little defensive value, or at best is a great hitter who plays at a great hitters' position, $18M a year. I think everyone knows that Manny got way too much money, and there's no way I'd pay this guy just short of $20M a year to be the next Manny (albeit with a better attitude).

[primelord]

Nothing could bring a bigger smile to this Cubs fan than hearing that we won't have to deal with Pujols anymore for the next 5 years.

Does it matter? The Cubbies didn't have to deal with Pujols for 91 of the last 94 years and it didn't seem to make a difference. :)

[Neuqua]

Does it matter? The Cubbies didn't have to deal with Pujols for 91 of the last 94 years and it didn't seem to make a difference. :)
Hey!

:(

[Fonzie]

Does it matter? The Cubbies didn't have to deal with Pujols for 91 of the last 94 years and it didn't seem to make a difference. :)

That, my friend, is one helluva slam.

Well done!

[WSUCougar]

What I've heard is an 8 year, $100M deal - $8M, $10M, and $12M for the next three years, then the subsequent 5 years on the same terms as Vlad Guerrero got this year.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay someone who has very little defensive value, or at best is a great hitter who plays at a great hitters' position, $18M a year. I think everyone knows that Manny got way too much money, and there's no way I'd pay this guy just short of $20M a year to be the next Manny (albeit with a better attitude).
Either I'm missing something or your math is screwy, Ksyrup. If it's 8 years at $100 million, that's $12.5 million a season, or if it escalates like you said, 8, 10, 12, and then 14 over the final 5 years. In MLB terms, that is not outrageous money for a guy who threatens the Triple Crown.

And the reputation of Pujols as a defensive liability is an incorrect one. Admittedly, he often looked awkward in left field, but he is destined for first base, and the guy can really pick it there.

And to elaborate on my earlier statement, it's not just a "Pujols = high salary" decision. You have a storied franchise that had a very hard sell (with still ample community animosity) regarding a new, expensive ballpark. Pujols is a very popular player, and a "home grown" prospect who has been deemed the best Cardinal player since Stan the Man. If management decides not to pursue him, it sends a message to the fans that the franchise is unwilling (unable, whatever) to do what needs to be done to take the team to the top. The Cards haven't won the World Series since 1982...the natives are getting restless. Throw in the obvious roster improvements (and willingness to make dramatic moves) that the rival Cubs have made, and you've got a bad scenario brewing the Redbird Nation.

[John Galt]

Either I'm missing something or your math is screwy, Ksyrup. If it's 8 years at $100 million, that's $12.5 million a season, or if it escalates like you said, 8, 10, 12, and then 14 over the final 5 years. In MLB terms, that is not outrageous money for a guy who threatens the Triple Crown.

And the reputation of Pujols as a defensive liability is an incorrect one. Admittedly, he often looked awkward in left field, but he is destined for first base, and the guy can really pick it there.

And to elaborate on my earlier statement, it's not just a "Pujols = high salary" decision. You have a storied franchise that had a very hard sell (with still ample community animosity) regarding a new, expensive ballpark. Pujols is a very popular player, and a "home grown" prospect who has been deemed the best Cardinal player since Stan the Man. If management decides not to pursue him, it sends a message to the fans that the franchise is unwilling (unable, whatever) to do what needs to be done to take the team to the top. The Cards haven't won the World Series since 1982...the natives are getting restless. Throw in the obvious roster improvements (and willingness to make dramatic moves) that the rival Cubs have made, and you've got a bad scenario brewing the Redbird Nation.

In this market, that's Andy Pettite money (who was waaaaaaayyyyy overpaid). Who would you rather have, Pujols or Pettite? ;)

[primelord]

Either I'm missing something or your math is screwy, Ksyrup. If it's 8 years at $100 million, that's $12.5 million a season, or if it escalates like you said, 8, 10, 12, and then 14 over the final 5 years. In MLB terms, that is not outrageous money for a guy who threatens the Triple Crown.

I will certainly give you that it is market value. However it is outrageous for the Cardinals to try and fit a salary like that into their long term plans. They just flat out can't afford to do that and expect to have ample talent around Pujols to win long term.

And the reputation of Pujols as a defensive liability is an incorrect one. Admittedly, he often looked awkward in left field, but he is destined for first base, and the guy can really pick it there.

I will actually go a bit farther and say Pujols was very solid in left field. Not spectacular and he may let a few drop in that pther speedy guys get to, but overall I would not call him a liability. You could do much worse (i.e. Manny).

And to elaborate on my earlier statement, it's not just a "Pujols = high salary" decision. You have a storied franchise that had a very hard sell (with still ample community animosity) regarding a new, expensive ballpark. Pujols is a very popular player, and a "home grown" prospect who has been deemed the best Cardinal player since Stan the Man. If management decides not to pursue him, it sends a message to the fans that the franchise is unwilling (unable, whatever) to do what needs to be done to take the team to the top. The Cards haven't won the World Series since 1982...the natives are getting restless. Throw in the obvious roster improvements (and willingness to make dramatic moves) that the rival Cubs have made, and you've got a bad scenario brewing the Redbird Nation.

I completely disagree here. First the Cardinals will always draw fans win or lose. Sure a lot of the city may be unhappy if they move Pujols or let him walk, but they will still come watch the team play. And I say not giving Pujols that massive of a contract should be sending a message to the fans that we are trying to give our team the best chance to be on top. It would be very easy to just pay Pujols whatever he wants and just sit back on that and every time someone complains that we are losing 90 games a year just point out "Yeah, but we have the league MVP!". Don't you remember watching that awful 98 and 99 cardinal teams? Again it was great to watch Big Mac crush 60+ HRs a year, but that got old after awhile and I wanted to see a winner.

Giving Pujols a massive contract in a market that can't support is just going to recreate that situation. Are we really better off with Pujols if it means we can't afford to re-sign Matt Morris and Edgar Renteria at the end of next year? and Woody is up the year after that. Plus again you have a ton of money being defered by Edmonds, Rolen, and Morris already. Hell we are still paying Andy Benes.

Again I will say in a perfect world we will be able to hold on to Pujols, but it certainly doesn't seem to make sense financially for the Cardinals. Also keep in mind the rumor is Pujols is going to reject that 8 year 100 million dollar offer as well. In the end though I think the ardinals will give in and give him what he is asking for. And I am sure it will be for the reasons you stated above. However with the Cards not exactly churning out great young ball players to replace the vets they won't be able to afford I won't be shocked when we get pulled way back to the pack.

[The_herd]

I completely disagree here. First the Cardinals will always draw fans win or lose. Sure a lot of the city may be unhappy if they move Pujols or let him walk, but they will still come watch the team play. And I say not giving Pujols that massive of a contract should be sending a message to the fans that we are trying to give our team the best chance to be on top. It would be very easy to just pay Pujols whatever he wants and just sit back on that and every time someone complains that we are losing 90 games a year just point out "Yeah, but we have the league MVP!". Don't you remember watching that awful 98 and 99 cardinal teams? Again it was great to watch Big Mac crush 60+ HRs a year, but that got old after awhile and I wanted to see a winner.



Not resigning a guy like Pujols doesn't send the message that the Cards are trying to give the team the best chance to be on top, it tells them they don't want to spend in order to win. Fans get tired of seeing teams like the Yanks and Red Sox outspending them to get their players. When you get a guy like Pujols, you pay him. 8 years and $100 million isn't that bad of a deal for a guy that hits the ball like Pujols. If the Cards don't pay Pujols, someone will, and they will be a better team because of it.

There is a big difference between McGuire and Pujols, Pujols does more than hit homeruns, McGuire was a one dimensional player. The guy can hit .350, play several positions, and is more of a threat at the plate than McGuire was. The big mistake the Cards made was paying Rolen $90 million, he's not an impact player, Pujols is. If they let Pujols go after signing Rolen to that deal, they look like idiots in the end.

[primelord]

I get tired of seeing the Yankees and Red Sox outspend everyone as well. However I understand the fact that they have more money to spend than the Cardinals do. I am not saying the Cardinals can't afford to pay Pujols what he wants. I am saying they can't afford to pay him AND the other people they need in order to win a championship.

And just to be clear I was not meaning to compare Pujols and McGwire. Their abilities aren't what I was getting at. What I was saying was we will end with a situation like the McGwire situation again. We will have one super star who puts up huge numbers, but doesn't have the support he needs to win a championship. So we will watch Pujols battle for the MVP and triple crown every year as we win 70 games. Yippie! :) I also misspoke a bit. I agree that the 8 year 100 million dollar deal isn't that bad. I guess it's that I have heard that he is likely going to turn that down as well that has really soured me on all of this.

I won't argue that they payed Rolen too much money. Although I do think he is an impact player. Albeit not as much as Pujols is. Still you can't overlook the fact that he is essentially a lock for 100 RBI's and is the best defensive 3rd baseman in baseball. But if you have to move him and not resign Renteria (The best short stop in the national league) and Matt Morris. Was it really worth it to keep Pujols at the loss of those three guys? Those three have a better chance of helping you win a championship without Pujols. Than Pujols does alone without them.

[The_herd]

I agree somewhat. But when does a team stop being content with just being good and hoping they win a world series? There reaches a point where you need to be proactive, but not to the point that you run the team into the ground. A very fine line that is somewhere between the Mets/'97Marlins and a team like Anaheim. Players like Pujols don't fall into your lap on a regular basis, so I think its best to keep them as long as they aren't asking for more than the $15 million a year that some of the top players seem to think they are worth. What message does not signing him send to other players? I could realistically see future young players in the organization thinking, "If they didn't sign Pujols, do I really have a chance at getting a long term contract here?".

I agree that Rolen is an impact player, but I've also always felt that he's a bit overrated at the plate. If Rolen's contract ends up costing them Pujols or pitching help, its something that fans in St. Louis can't be happy with.

If Pujols turns down the contract on the table, then he's narrowed his list of teams considerablely. He's pretty much put himself in a situation where he'll end up in LA, NY, or Baltimore. As is the case with most players, he's getting some bad advice somewhere, most likely his agent. If he asks for much more than the $12.5M a year thats on the table now, then I agree that they should let him walk. Hopefully he realizes he's in a really good situation, so why risk ruining things by going to a different team for more money.

Maybe the Cards should arrange for A-Rod to have a talk with him.

[dawgfan]

A few comments:

- This is probably over-simplifying things, but if it comes down to being able to keep Edgar Renteria or not based on re-signing Pujols, well, that's an easy decision. Renteria is a real good SS, but Pujols is arguably the 2nd best hitter in the game behind a guy that might be the best hitter of all-time (Bonds). Pujols is younger (probably) and would be much harder to replace than Renteria.

- I would agree with the sentiment on Rolen - he's a good 3B, but in the current market he's probably overpaid. I'd keep Pujols and deal Rolen for help elsewhere so that his $9M is better spent.

- Once the new park opens in St. Louis, I can't see how the Cardinals management will be able to justify keeping their salary limit at $82M; this is a tremendous baseball town, and I would expect the stadium to be a sellout or near-sellout for at least the first few years assuming the Cards remain contenders. Along with everything else that comes with the new stadium I would expect the Cardinal revenue stream to jump noticeably; if the Mariners can afford a $95M player budget, surely the Cardinals in a new stadium can too?

- If Pujols is asking for $12.5 per over 8 years, that's a good deal in terms of salary. I would be a little worried at the length of the deal given that salary insurance only will cover 3 of those 8 years and you never know when debilitating injuries will strike (hello Griffey Jr.) I think Pujols is worth comparable money to Vlad.

[primelord]

With each year that goes by the gap between Pujols and Soriano just continues to grow. :) I am curious if Marmel would rather have Pujols now that Soriano is no loneg a Yankee. ;)

This year:
Name AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pujols 209 53 68 18 0 17 40 37 18 2 3 .325 .426 .656 1.082
Soriano 229 23 67 13 0 7 32 13 47 5 3 .293 .336 .441 .777

Career:
Name AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pujols 1980 420 659 156 7 131 421 257 245 10 11 .333 .414 .617 1.031
Soriano 2239 349 638 137 10 105 302 104 477 126 39 .285 .324 .496 .820

[cuervo72]

With each year that goes by the gap between Pujols and Soriano just continues to grow. :) I am curious if Marmel would rather have Pujols now that Soriano is no loneg a Yankee. ;)

Is this going by calendar year, or each year that Soriano ages?

[MizzouRah]

We all knew Pujols was the shizznit. :)


Todd

[primelord]

So I am guessing this settled now? :)

[WSUCougar]

I must say, as a diehard Cardinal fan, that the sense of glee I get when "Pujo" comes up is unmatched. It's the exact opposite of the dread when we're facing Barry Bonds, or when Carlos Beltran was so blazing hot in the playoffs last year.

[Fonzie]

I must say, as a diehard Cardinal fan, that the sense of glee I get when "Pujo" comes up is unmatched. It's the exact opposite of the dread when we're facing Barry Bonds, or when Carlos Beltran was so blazing hot in the playoffs last year.

It is a good feeling, isn't it? :)