Pro Strategy Football 2013 for iphone/ipad released! Post impressions. [Archive]

Buccaneer

12-16-2012, 08:39 PM

Holy crap, that's Tom Landry Strategy Football with some graphical mods. TLSF is an awesome game, but old as the hills. Turns out its the same developer.. I wonder if he is going to re-release this for PC with online play, because I love that game to death and it would be fun as hell to create a league here. We need to start flooding him with requests to re-release it like that.

That was my first computer football game (on the Mac), which graphically blew away anything on the PC at the time. Spent a few years playing that game, even multiplayer.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-16-2012, 08:42 PM

Unfortunately, one of the games got corrupted. My game against Brian was going really well but all of a sudden it turned his game into the game I'm having against rainraven. So now instead of having one game against balt and one against den, I have two games where I'm losing to Balt 13-6.

In one game Balt has the ball 2nd and ten, in the other game I got an int.

Rainraven and briand what are you guys seeing?

RainRaven

12-16-2012, 08:52 PM

Nothing funky on my end so far.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-16-2012, 08:53 PM

ok good deal. glad my int counted. lets see if i can do something with it.

SegRat

12-17-2012, 09:08 AM

How does mutiplayer work?

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-17-2012, 11:47 AM

It is basically words with friends for football.

One player calles his offensive play.

The other player gets the notification.

He calls his defensive play.

Then you see the animation of the results.

Rinse and repeat.

QuikSand

12-17-2012, 11:48 AM

Downloaded, have not played yet - thanks for the lead, though.

Pro Strategy Football

12-17-2012, 12:17 PM

Hey, everyone, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Kerry Batts, the developer of Pro Strategy Football (and TLSF many years ago!). LastWhiteSoxFan dropped by my web site and facebook page and suggested I chat with you guys.

First off, I'm very sorry to hear about the bug that happened where the game got corrupted. I hate when any bugs pop up, especially ones that are hard to duplicate. Right now, I'm using Apple's Game Center api for multiplayer, but for next year, I may look into writing my own server code.

Game Center doesn't directly allow for chat in turn-based multiplayer, but having my own server would open all sorts of options, including making it easier to have a central location for league/season games, and chatting.

Meanwhile, I work on the game part-time, and I'm currently working on an option where you could send a string of text when you send your turn. It's not as nice as full chat, but it would be helpful. I have a good part of it in place, but between family, and Apple shutting down for developers for a week soon, it'll be at least a few weeks before I get the new release out. I apologize (I keep wishing I could just develop apps full time, it's much more fun that the IT work I do in real life <grin>).

I do hope you're enjoying the game, and in a month or so, I'm going to take ideas for the 2013 upgrades. The biggest thing would be multiplayer, and track down any pesky bugs like the corrupt game LWSF encountered, but I know people would like more offensive and defensive options, too.

And thanks for the support! I've contacted sites, but no one's reviewed the app, so it has almost no visibility. I think lowering the price will help some, and I really thank guys like LWSFS for spreading the word.

Have a great day! I'll be back on. I do play matches against people, just swamped right now, but I'll be happy to play some soon.

Oh, I occasionally post tips on the FB page (things like don't call play-action in obvious passing situations, punish blitzing defenses by throwing routes that hit the area vacated by the linebacker, don't stunt while defending the run - mainly to help people with mistakes I see them making).

One last thing. The game is a little hard on offenses, you have to work to have consistent drives. I may open that up a little for next year. But it's not like an arcade game, where you can throw deep every down. You have to set up the defense by running and throwing short a lot, then hit them.

Have fun! Let me know of any bad (or good), I always want to improve the app!

p.s. yeah, some teams have it really bad. I played Dallas against a guy who took Pittsburgh. He shut me out! Another guy wanted to take Dallas, and I knew he'd have it bad, so I took Washington. Wow, the Redskins stunk last year. :-)

dubb93

12-17-2012, 12:24 PM

Facebook page?

EDIT: Whats the link to it?

Pro Strategy Football

12-17-2012, 01:26 PM

Ah, stupid me. :-)

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/prostrategyfootball

Web site (really needs work): http://www.prostrategyfootball.com

digamma

12-17-2012, 02:10 PM

Thanks a lot for stopping by. Very much appreciated.

I'm playing the game a bit and enjoying it--though I'm going very slowly (a few turns here and there).

digamma

12-17-2012, 02:12 PM

And i'm sven1400 for MP players.

Buccaneer

12-17-2012, 04:01 PM

and thank you very much for the original TLSF, it gave me a few years of fun gameplay!

Pro Strategy Football

12-17-2012, 05:39 PM

Thanks, Buccaneer!

Comey

12-18-2012, 09:20 AM

What is the feasibility of an Android release anytime? Would love to get my hands on this.

DaddyTorgo

12-18-2012, 09:35 AM

maybe i'll check this out...

Pro Strategy Football

12-18-2012, 11:15 AM

Comey (and anyone else interested in an Android version), I did some research yesterday, and it definitely looks possible, even very probable. I'll work hard to have an Android version ready for 2013!

Comey

12-18-2012, 03:06 PM

Giddyup. I can, and will, promote the hell out of this thing. Will do a review for GMGames, among other places. I will get a hold of you to keep communication open.

Pro Strategy Football

12-18-2012, 03:18 PM

Thanks, Comey! I appreciate that, just sorry I don't have an Android version for you already. After the holidays, I'll be talking with people about ideas for 2013, so be ready to help me brainstorm!

SegRat

12-20-2012, 11:58 AM

I would really like try now. Name: havenhunting

Julio Riddols

12-20-2012, 02:57 PM

Man, I wish I had an iPad right about now.

SegRat

12-21-2012, 01:38 PM

BrianD I requested you as a friend being we live a few minutes from each other.

BrianD

12-21-2012, 02:48 PM

Ouch, that penalty hurt.

BrianD

12-21-2012, 04:43 PM

Nice game Seg. Was getting pretty close there at the end. I wasn't playing a prevent defense, but it sure looked like it the way you kept completing passes.

RainRaven

12-21-2012, 06:02 PM

LWSFS that was a nice game. Some costly turnovers hurt you. Also did I imagine that bug at the end of the game when I tried a long fg missed and then it made you kick off?

Vince, Pt. II

12-21-2012, 06:05 PM

I'm loving this game. Playing my dad at the moment, he's San Francisco I'm Cincinnati. We had an issue where my game reported a play as an incompletion, and his game said it was a 12 yard gain and a first down. It turns out his game was 'correct,' as moving forward it was 1st down. I ran the replay on my end to make sure, and even the replay showed an incomplete pass.

Moving forward I'll take a more detailed bug report, just didn't think about it at the time.

Balldog

12-21-2012, 07:12 PM

How long do games take?

Pro Strategy Football

12-21-2012, 10:02 PM

I'm sorry to hear about the issues with multiplayer. I'm looking into it, but can't duplicate it so far. I do know a few things I'll change to try to fix it.

Here's how multiplayer works. Offensive player sends complete game state over, which includes who he has in each position (might be injuries, for example) and his offensive call (formation, motion, strong side, all pass patterns, etc). Defensive player makes a call and sends the complete state back. The seed for the random number function is also included.

Each device then computes the play, and since they *should* have the exact state and same seed, they should compute the same results, but something is apparently getting changed, and I haven't been able to isolate it.

One thing I'm looking into is the fact that I compress the turn before sending it and then uncompress it when it's received. I'm also looking into the random number function itself.

The bug exhibits itself by the two sides getting a different result.

Oh, there's a second bug mentioned above, too, and I really need more information on it. I've seen it myself, but didn't capture the information. It's where there's a change of possession (punt, missed fg, fumble, etc), but the game gets confused and forces the team who *should* now have the ball to kickoff or punt. Weird.

My code is a combination of original C, some partial upgraded C when we were working an update that got cancelled, and now all the new stuff, which is Objective C. I may take a month or so and rearchitect it all to classes, which would help in porting and also should help with future extensions, and hopefully help me find these issues.

I hope the game is fun for you guys!

SegRat

12-21-2012, 11:11 PM

Nice game Seg. Was getting pretty close there at the end. I wasn't playing a prevent defense, but it sure looked like it the way you kept completing passes.

I was surprised how close game ended up. I couldn't stop you most of the game. Had fun playing.

BrianD

12-22-2012, 12:40 AM

How long do games take?

I think my game with Seg took about 90 minutes. That could probably be cut down a little bit, but we didn't waste much time between plays.

Vince, Pt. II

12-22-2012, 01:07 AM

I hope the game is fun for you guys!

The game is awesome, don't think that I'm not loving it :)

Julio Riddols

12-22-2012, 03:59 AM

Kerry, if you have any plans in making this available for the PC in the future, I'll be all over it.

jaygr

12-22-2012, 06:58 AM

Hey, everyone, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Kerry Batts, the developer of Pro Strategy Football (and TLSF many years ago!). LastWhiteSoxFan dropped by my web site and facebook page and suggested I chat with you guys.)

Hi Kerry. I'm really enjoying your game so far. One question I wanted to ask is do you think it would be possible to have game saves go across devices? For example, I have an iPad and and iPhone. At home I use the iPad to play the game, and when I am out I play on the iPhone. It would be neat if I could continue the games/seasons across the devices. Is this possible to do? Currently I have to run different games seasons in each device.

SegRat

12-22-2012, 07:14 AM

I think my game with Seg took about 90 minutes. That could probably be cut down a little bit, but we didn't waste much time between plays.

Yeah some of that was taking care of the kids, running to the grocrey store. I didnt think it would have taken that long myself. But I had fun with it.

rowech

12-22-2012, 07:27 AM

Is it possible to win with bad teams or is there no chance?

Pro Strategy Football

12-22-2012, 09:15 AM

jaygr, great question! I had that working, but I was saving "too much" data, and Apple rejected my app, so I took it out. I need to split the data into data which needs to be saved across devices and data that doesn't. I'm glad you reminded me of that! I'm working on a patch now to try to add simple chat, I'll work on adding that feature back in.

rowech, it's possible to beat the computer with really bad teams, but if you take a really bad team against a person who has a good team, it's really hard. In fact, I now wonder if I made it too hard by ranking the bad teams TOO bad.

I do think I need to bring the bad teams up a little, and I'm also wondering if I need to open up the offense a little when playing multiplayer. I like the fact that I have to work for a score, but I find it rare that I score more than 30 points against a person.

BrianD, I decided to make multiplayer games turn-based, which does help in those times where you can't both be on at the same time.

rowech

12-22-2012, 09:23 AM

Pro Strategy Football

12-22-2012, 09:24 AM

BTW, guys, a note about multiplayer. I know it's a little clunky, having to wait for your opponent to see the screen before you can advance. I originally had a faster version, but it meant that your opponent might miss a screen or two if they're not online. I need to come up with a way to tell them what they missed.

For example, say we start a game, and I see the coin toss screen. In the fast version, here's what might happen. I call Heads, and I win the toss. I elect to Kick, so I keep control, moving to the Direction screen, where I choose North. I still have control, so I move to the Kick screen, where I decide to kick Deep.

Only then do I move control to you. Now, if you're in the match, you'll see all those screens, but if you're not, when you come back to the match, all you'll see is the Kick Return screen, missing those screens where I kept control.

So, to be "nice" I decided to require that each player see each screen, but I really need to come up with a way to let the first guy keep control as long as necessary to make it smoother, but then tell the opponent what he missed if he was away.

Pro Strategy Football

12-22-2012, 09:24 AM

rowech, that's a great idea! I'll add that to my list, thanks!

Pro Strategy Football

12-22-2012, 09:30 AM

oh, about a PC version, I don't know yet. While I really wish I could develop apps full time, I can't, so it's slower than I'd like, and I'll have to see what I can do. I'm looking into an Android port, then probably a Mac one (just because it may be simpler). I'd like to eventually create a PC one (I game on my PC, too!), but that's probably a huge port. It is on my list, just lower down.

digamma

12-22-2012, 09:51 AM

For example, say we start a game, and I see the coin toss screen. In the fast version, here's what might happen. I call Heads, and I win the toss. I elect to Kick, so I keep control, moving to the Direction screen, where I choose North. I still have control, so I move to the Kick screen, where I decide to kick Deep.

Only then do I move control to you. Now, if you're in the match, you'll see all those screens, but if you're not, when you come back to the match, all you'll see is the Kick Return screen, missing those screens where I kept control.

Yes, please!

BrianD

12-22-2012, 11:33 AM

BrianD, I decided to make multiplayer games turn-based, which does help in those times where you can't both be on at the same time.

I have no complaint about the speed of multiplayer. It is great that you don't have to play it all in one sitting, and the speed is find if both players are wanting to play in one sitting.

I know you talked about making some changes in the future to allow in-game chat or at least message passing, but I think would be a nice addition.

Definitely enjoying the game so far.

SegRat

12-22-2012, 12:12 PM

I know you talked about making some changes in the future to allow in-game chat or at least message passing, but I think would be a nice addition.

This would be really nice. I could have given BrianD notice, "running to the store, be back in a bit." Just something simple.

BrianD

12-22-2012, 01:37 PM

This would be really nice. I could have given BrianD notice, "running to the store, be back in a bit." Just something simple.

You must have made your store run really quickly. There were a couple of longer pauses, but nothing I thought was longer than a bathroom break or something like that.

SegRat

12-22-2012, 06:53 PM

You must have made your store run really quickly. There were a couple of longer pauses, but nothing I thought was longer than a bathroom break or something like that.

No, I was playing while I was at the grocery store.

Pro Strategy Football

12-22-2012, 07:51 PM

I'm enjoying the Season with my family, but I took some time today to work on a few features. The "chat" feature is coming along nicely. It's not fantastic or elegant, but it'll be helpful for the 2012 version. A better solution for 2013 will require some redesign.

In this one, you can send a message with your turn. I'm testing three scenarios:
(1) sender has the update, receiver doesn't (sender is sending more data than receiver expects)
(2) sender has the current version, receiver has the update (receiver looks for a message, but sender isn't sending one)
(3) sender and receiver both have the update.

I was concerned about (1) and (2), but it looks like I have it working just fine, which means you won't need to delete existing matches when you get the update.

BTW, another thing I want to get in is the ability to save matches and play them on your other devices.

Taking it very easy through Christmas, but January should see some nice updates!

Julio Riddols

12-22-2012, 09:18 PM

This game would have amazing potential if it ever had a career mode. My imagination is salivating thinking about it.

Pro Strategy Football

12-22-2012, 09:23 PM

I've never played a game with career mode, so I'm going to need a lot of advice from people on what they'd want. Maybe I should look at some other apps or web sites to see what's typically done, too. I know a lot of people want that, I just need to make sure I can fit it with the coaching sim part. Thanks!

RainRaven

12-22-2012, 09:57 PM

I think a career mode would be nice but I also think the experience currently constructed is very elegant. I like the fact the focus is on play calling and not on gaining new players or shuffling the roster. Also I might be in the minority but I appreciate the toughness of offense. I don't need it to feel like a shoot out to enjoy the game. Having a flowing offensive series should feel like an accomplishment.

Julio Riddols

12-22-2012, 10:22 PM

My recommendation for reference on a career sim would be FOF.

I think all you would really need is a basic salary cap system, maybe give every team a set number of points to use and have really basic flat contracts, like maybe you have a static 100 point per season cap and players will ask for salaries between 1 and 10 points per year depending on their value level..

Player progression could be pretty straight forward, no real need for hidden ratings or anything, just a potential rating set, a current rating set, a work ethic/attitude rating which will determine the likelihood they will fall short of/reach/exceed that potential, and a reasonable growth/decline/retirement mechanism based on real world position data for average career lengths. You could look at drafts for an indication as to what level of talent should be available in an average year and have randomly generated classes based loosely on those numbers.. You wouldn't need coaches, because hopefully teams will have human coaches. The basic A.I. for the game is actually excellent, I remember the CPU being hard to beat in TLSF and each team in the game seemed to use their personnel really well. Maybe each team could have a basic CPU GM profile in the case that a human is not operating them, one that determines players they try to sign based on their team style so that the default CPU playcalling A.I. could remain the same and simplify that part of the game.

Basic player/pick for player/pick trading would be the easiest way to model trading, and with flat contracts and a static cap, it would be easy to set value levels for players based on that so that the A.I. could more easily intelligently manage their rosters season to season with a free agency period.

I am basically just dreaming out loud here and I realize this is probably much easier dreamed than done, but that would be what I would do first if I could do what you do. If there was a need for it, more in depth stuff could be added later, but I think keeping a game like this simple would keep it fun and broaden the base a little bit by being straight forward and simple to understand.

Pro Strategy Football

12-23-2012, 02:06 PM

My personal thought has always been along the line of Raven's, so this is hard for me to get my head around. Thanks, Julio, for the information! I wonder if that should be a separate app, since some of us (like me) just want to coach games.

In fact, another guy at work suggested I do something like the following: you select a team to take over, and all its attributes are 1s. You then earn points as you play, that you can use to "spec" out your team, and spend points to respec if you decide to change it. This is more of a role-playing approach, like we see in MMOs.

Another idea is to provide a league editor and let people just edit leagues.

I really like an idea of supporting league play with multiplayer and concurrent games, but that will require an actual server running somewhere, so that's going to take a lot of thought. I'd have to either let people run their own servers, or I'd have to find a way to finance a server for the game (higher price, which seems to drive people away, or something like $1/month for those who want the option, I don't know). It would probably be more feasible to come up with a way for people to run their own server.

The reason I like this is that you could create a league from friends, everyone taking a team, and play a season through the playoffs. But it requires that the league, teams, and stats be accessible by everyone at any time. That would allow concurrent games and push notifications, which sounds fun.

So many options! Too much to think about! Ok, have a great day, guys!

Comey

12-23-2012, 02:08 PM

I believe having the ability to have league play would far offset the cost of having it.

kingfc22

12-23-2012, 02:15 PM

Finally had a chance to DL this today.

kingfc22 on GameCenter if you want somebody to challenge

Tasan

12-23-2012, 02:21 PM

Immediate buy if it comes to Android for me. Can't wait!

Pro Strategy Football

12-23-2012, 03:22 PM

Comey, I do like the idea, just need to do some market research, but I'm definitely interested myself.

Here's something I posted over on the FB page:

I'm running into options explosion! The more options that are added to a game, the harder it is to keep them simple. I like options, but I know that some people just want to be able to play without having to jump through hoops.

For example, right now you can play:
(1) a season game
(2) a local exhibition game, versus computer or pass-and-play
(3) a multiplayer exhibition game

If I add a career mode and/or the Extreme mode suggested by Tim (more of a role-playing mode, which sounds good, kind of like Big Win Football, but with real coaching strategy), then it grows even more, especially if each of these are also multiplayer. And if I can make season play multiplayer, it's even bigger.

Finding a way to present these options in a fast, friendly flow isn't easy, and even makes me wonder if these should be different apps.

The Extreme mode (look at Big Win Football for an example), for example, has you start out with a basement level team (you choose a team, and it's your's), and you earn points that you can then use to "spec" out your team. Raising any attribute from 1 to 2 is cheap, but by the time you're trying to raise a 7 to an 8 or an 8 to a 9, it's expensive, so you decide whether to really build up one player or spread it out. And do you neglect your blocking ratings to build up backs, etc.

But not everyone's going to want to play that, so I'm thinking I may just make that a separate app, built around the same engine, but to keep it simple.

If I create separate apps, I'll keep the price down on each, and people can pick and choose. If I add all these multiple options to one app, it complicates the UI and gameplay.

Same with career mode. I see a lot of people wanting it, but I also see a lot of people who don't, who just want to coach.

Otherwise, if all these are in one app, then you have to choose which type of game you want to play, then send out an invitation, and hope they want to play the same type of game. If they're separate apps, then you know they do, right?

On the other hand, if I create 2-3 separate apps, that might confuse people, too. I don't think so, but who knows.

Thoughts?

Pro Strategy Football

12-23-2012, 03:25 PM

Tasan, glad to hear that! I think working on an Android version needs to be one of my first priorities, to at least find out whether it's feasible. I think it is.

Now, to support multiplayer between different device types, I'd have to drop Game Center and find another approach that can also support turn-based play. If I dropped turn-based play, creating a real-time session play is much simpler, but it's not as convenient for the players.

Anyway, if it were easy, what would be the fun in that, right? :-)

Pro Strategy Football

12-23-2012, 03:28 PM

ok, last post, I need to go do some Christmas stuff, but one last question.

My comment about Game Center reminded me of something else I can add if it'll help draw an audience - Achievements and/or some sort of Leaderboard. Worth it?

RainRaven

12-23-2012, 03:53 PM

My 02. cents, leaderboards and achievements arent worth it. Football fans care about online leagues far above that other fluff honestly. Also please keep async play. I know some people prefer real-time but having the turn based option is nice for those people who don't have tons of consistent free time to play out a game at one shot.

Pro Strategy Football

12-23-2012, 04:07 PM

Raven, I agree on both counts, and I appreciate the feedback. It helps to know, since I'm just one person. I know I love turn-based play myself! I have multiple matches going on right now, but some days I can barely make a few moves and some days I can play for quite a while.

Vince, Pt. II

12-23-2012, 04:32 PM

Also please keep async play. I know some people prefer real-time but having the turn based option is nice for those people who don't have tons of consistent free time to play out a game at one shot.

+1. I probably wouldn't play if it didn't have the turn based option.

JimboJ

12-23-2012, 09:23 PM

My 2 cents...

First, i would avoid the extreme mode myself. I've been playing football sims for a long time and the #1 most important thing to football simmers is realism. If you make up some hokey rules, it becomes something other than football.

Second, I think career mode is important even if you only care about coaching. The problem with games without career play is once you play a season, you have nowhere to go. Sure you can play as another team or with a different schedule, but you are still stuck with the same teams and players. Career mode allows for more replayability. If your favorite team is bad this year, you want the chance to make them better next year.

I think it makes sense to add career mode as an add on. I think Julio did an excellent job if laying out how career mode can be implemented. If you wanted to start out even simpler, add a pre-free agency career mode. No contracts. Players age, and their ratings improve and decline based on the aging curve. Some players retire, and you have a rookie draft each year. You have the option to release players and pick up players released by other teams. Keep it simple at first. In later versions you can add contracts, negotiations, salary cap, etc.

I'm a C# developer myself, and I've been thinking about getting into developing mobile apps in my spare time. If you decide to create an android version, I may be able to help with the career mode. PM me if you're interested.

Pro Strategy Football

12-23-2012, 11:55 PM

Thanks, Jimbo, good points. Another guy has messaged me on FB about some good ideas for career mode, which I could combine with these.

I'd definitely like to pick your brain about ideas on the design and development side. I programmed in C for many years, then Java for more years than I can count, and now Objective C, but I skipped over C# and C++. I know Android development was primarily in Java when I first looked, but when I researched last week, it turns out there's been a lot of work on the C++ side, and a port of the Cocos2D library to Cocos2D-X, which supports Android (as well as iOS). I'm going to take a few days one weekend in January to do some test development with some of my basic screens and see how that goes.

Well, thanks, all! If I don't get back on before then, Merry Christmas! And thanks for the support!

Julio Riddols

12-24-2012, 01:27 AM

Same to you, and thanks for reminding me of how much fun it was to play TLSF.. I've since re-installed it off the old cd I still have and promptly got waxed by Denver 45-7 in a game where we turned it over 4 times and suffered 9 penalties for nearly 100 yards. We moved the ball ok at times, but shot ourselves in the foot a lot too. Went too aggressive on defense and gave up several big plays. I'll probably play a couple more games tonight and try to bounce back.

Also in regards to the pre-free agency version of the career sim idea, I like that too. Just a draft and the possibility for trades would be a solid start as long as players age and retire. As a coach, I really like the idea of molding a team and watching my players grow and getting attached to their careers.

JimboJ

12-24-2012, 08:57 AM

Kerry, if you want I can try to put together a high level design document for career mode. I'll try to keep it simple, with just player aging, drafting, trading, signing and releasing. I'm on vacation for the holidays, and I'll probably have some time later in the week to put my thoughts down.

As far as helping with the coding, I'm pretty good at learning technology on the fly, so whatever platform you decide on, I can adapt. As I said, I strongly prefer android, as I believe it is the future of mobile apps. And i would to see a bigger push to get more apps out for android tablets.

SegRat

12-24-2012, 09:08 AM

I'm looking to play another multiplayer game with someone. However it wont be in one sitting and may end up taking a few days.
If anyone is interested let me know.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-24-2012, 09:22 AM

Sending you a friend request

SegRat

12-24-2012, 10:46 AM

Figured out why. When I created the name I missed the N. so it's havehunting. Oops.

I sent a friend request

RainRaven

12-24-2012, 06:02 PM

Would love some more games, feel free to add my GC name: RainRaven11

Also, would people be up for trying to do maybe a January league of sorts once we get more practice in the rest of December?

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-24-2012, 06:12 PM

That sounds like a great idea!

I am sending a request for a game with you. This time I am not taking the Bears as an experiment to see if I can actually complete more than seven passes in a game.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-24-2012, 06:17 PM

Rainraven, it is saying it can't create a match for us. Maybe you can invite me to a game instead

RainRaven

12-24-2012, 08:40 PM

LWSFS If you could stop completing every pass I would appreciate it. Thanks.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-24-2012, 08:50 PM

Out of the same formation too :)

Looks like I ran it one too many times though. Your defense tightened when it needed to. And to make things even worse I blew the chip shot field goal.

RainRaven

12-24-2012, 08:59 PM

Nice interception, got too cute with the pass on 3rd and 1. I should stop taking notes from former OC Cam Cameron.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-24-2012, 09:08 PM

I have noticed two deep zones aren't nearly as effective as they should be. I point this out because I think that zone is the right call against the passes I have been calling yet they don't seem to be much good. But that could just be because the pats are good.

I decided to change formations. I don't know if using just one formation makes me one of those types of players.

RainRaven

12-24-2012, 09:13 PM

Or the fact that I have played a ton of man to man and very little zone so far overall actually. We all have our favorite formations so use any that you like.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-24-2012, 09:21 PM

Somehow I thought you were playing more zone. My bad.

Great game so far. A bug occurred though. I kicked off to rainraven. He had the ball with time left. It should have been a dead ball but 21 seconds ran off before he could run his play to end the quarter

RainRaven

12-24-2012, 09:24 PM

Don't believe him about the good game part, while I am only losing 3-0 I had a whopping 18 yards of offense in the quarter.

digamma

12-26-2012, 11:06 AM

There seems to be a small bug in penalty enforcement. I think the game is enforcing the full penalty rather than half the distance to the goal on special teams plays. In two separate games I've seen drives start on the 1 or 2 yard line. I guess it is possible the spot of the foul was the 2 or 4. Mind checking on it, PFS?

aran

12-26-2012, 01:04 PM

Kerry, if you write an API for your game and manage to port it over to PC, I'd be interested in taking a stab at writing a career layer.

Basically, if you provide a coaching layer and expose player/team information and game results, others can use your engine as a service that we can wrap with our own meta-layers! We can all work together to make an awesome combination of games that build on top of your engine which apparently is already great.

If you've got an API, we can also program more ad hoc leagues aside from career mode, tournament systems, and other non-career-mode persistent options without you having to do a lot of extra work and research.

The business arrangements may be a little weird to figure out, but this could end in something amazing.

Pro Strategy Football

12-26-2012, 04:05 PM

Hey, very busy until around January 7-8, lots of family, so I'll be off a lot, but will check when I can. BTW, went to see Les Miserables with family - great movie!

digamma, I'll double-check the penalties. I believe the penalty on returns is from the point where the return man caught the ball? If I'm wrong on that, let me know. So in that case, it's possible that the man caught it around the 2-4 yard line. But I'll definitely double-check. Thanks!

Ok, regarding how "bad" some teams are, I wonder if I maybe made some *too* bad (giving their men ratings like 3-4). Running computer simulations of entire seasons, the results come out very realistically, but when coaching a bad team as a person against another person, it can be frustrating. Hmmm, maybe come up with some way of helping out when coaching against another player, but not against the computer?

I saw some questions about man and zone coverage. Basically, man coverage is what you want if your opponent is throwing short passes. Two-deep is tough on wide receivers for the Medium Passes that are the shorter options (for example, Square Out), but a little weaker, comparatively speaking against the "deeper" Medium Passes (e.g. Sideline). Two-deep can be beaten by a fast tight end running a Cross patter (medium pass). Two-deep is weak against short passes.

Three-deep is the best against long passes, horrible against short passes, and not as good against medium passes as the two-deep.

If you have excellent DBs and LBs, then Man coverage can be great against all passes, and allows you to blitz and double-team (unless your Free Safety has an assignment or is blitzing). Of course, if the defender gets beat, it can be a huge gain.

Zones are somewhat better against runs, but then so is Man with an appropriate blitz.

Pro Strategy Football

12-26-2012, 04:12 PM

A few quick tips, and you may already know these. A blitz can mess up the offense's timing, even on a screen or draw, but if the offense completes a screen and reacts well, it can tear a blitz up. So can a draw. Just don't be surprised if you see occasional large gains against blitzes, but also the occasional loss, even with a screen or draw.

I frequently watch what my opponent is doing (and of course, I scout my men and his). If he keeps blitzing his ROLB, I'll throw a short slant pass to my split end on the left (or motion my flanker to the left and throw the same pattern to him). The LB is gone from that spot, increasing my chance of completing it, and of possibly getting a large gain!

Same with someone who keeps blitzing inside. The little circle route or delay to a back can be great in that case.

If you have a man over center and keep defending the pass, I'll call Traps. If you don't have a man over center, I'll call draws.

On defense, I'm frequently in Man coverage, and probably blitz at least one LB on half my plays (mixing up who I'm blitzing). But I'll also drop to two-deep. I rarely call three-deep.

I had to explain to one person that the game uses percentages, and just like in real life, you can have a bad, unlucky day (look at the Vikings in the 60s-80s, with what, five Super Bowls, and all their worst game of the year each time!).

OTOH, if you see glaring logic mistakes, let me know! It's hard to simulate real life, and I'm open to improvements!

Pro Strategy Football

12-26-2012, 04:18 PM

Hey, aran, that's a great idea! Right now, the idea of incorporating career mode is pretty daunting, but I'm willing to tackle it. OTOH, any way we can simplify it would be very welcome. I can create an editor, for example.

And I'll definitely want to keep the current "pro" mode, too, for people who don't want to be confined to a single team or do the career mode.

Hey, one guy had an interesting idea regarding career mode. Each week during the season, have two states - Practice and Game Day. In the Practice week, you can allocate points evenly among all aspects, or you might want to focus on reducing penalties or turnovers, or really work on a particular formation or play, so you'd take points out of one area and put them there. Interesting notion.

I haven't had a chance to read over everything posted in the last few days, although I try. Once life's back to normal, I'll be taking all suggestions, bug questions, etc, and consolidating them. Then I'll work on a priority list for next year.

Meanwhile, anything you guys can do to help spread the word would be really helpful. Hey, if you guys are good at creating videos, you could do that and post them on youtube or on the app's FB page!

Anyway, thanks again, good luck, and it's fun reading about your games!

Pro Strategy Football

12-26-2012, 04:35 PM

RainRaven

12-26-2012, 05:06 PM

I would let those smarter then myself chime in the exact specifics of how to achieve an in game league and such but I am glad to see it being discussed. Thanks for your constant answers and I will be posting I hope tonight on quarter to three boards and seeing if I can get some more interest going overall for the game.

Also, do people have a preference on where to start up talk of a January league? In here or start a new thread for just that?

digamma

12-26-2012, 07:56 PM

digamma, I'll double-check the penalties. I believe the penalty on returns is from the point where the return man caught the ball? If I'm wrong on that, let me know. So in that case, it's possible that the man caught it around the 2-4 yard line. But I'll definitely double-check. Thanks!

Thanks. Yes, the penalty should be enforced from the spot of the foul. I'm not sure how difficult that is to code on a live action play. So, if a return is to the 25, but there was holding at the 22, then you would have a ten yard penalty back to the 12.

RainRaven

12-26-2012, 08:15 PM

I have liked some of your playcalls during our game so far digamma, just some bad timing on turnovers has cost you so far. I look forward to the final quarter.

Pro Strategy Football

12-26-2012, 09:44 PM

Thanks, digamma! I have the "half the distance to the goal" working on other plays, but missed that. D'oh! I'd say most penalties (blocking in the back, holding) probably happen fairly close to the start of the runback, so I'll use a random number to determine the spot, with most being within 10 yards of the start point, and the rest anywhere between the start point and the end (unless it's a touchdown, would handle that a little differently).

Good catch!

Hey, remember, everyone, use Scouting to find the best/worst men on each team. Have fun!

Buccaneer

12-26-2012, 10:23 PM

aran

12-27-2012, 12:42 PM

Hey, Aran, along those lines, I was thinking of a better way to do turn-based multiplayer that wouldn't require Game Center. I don't know if you guys have run into this, but sometimes GC messes up, even goes off line.

What if I used a public database? Either one I host, or something you guys can create ad hoc. Numerous advantages, if I designed the schema correctly:

(1) not dependent on Game Center. This means it's not platform-dependent either, so you could have an Android user playing against an iOS user.
(2) you could make any match public, meaning others could read it but not update it. Would be fun for league play, I'd think.
(3) easy to store a chat history for each match.

Disadvantages:
(1) if it's public, it can be hacked. It's a shame, but it's true.
(2) no push notifications. However, if you're in the app, I can poll the database every so often to see if you have any other matches where it's now your turn.

Now, another application could be written to poll it and push out notifications, but that would be a future addition, I'd think.

Now, going to the next level and adding league definitions, where there's a season and binding of players to specific teams, and editing the teams ... that's a bit more work, but possible (talking about on the shared database).

Thoughts?

Well, you wouldn't directly allow access to such a database. You'd have a web service running on a server somewhere that would act as a gatekeeper. There'd actually probably be a couple of services: one for the game only to interact with that would have a bit of security, and one that allows a bunch of read-only functions to the public and has no capacity to do damage to the database, hence no chance of being compromised.

I have some experience writing web services and would be willing to advise if not donate some of my time to this project.

I've PM'd you some contact information. Maybe we can talk about it in more depth soon off the forum and flesh out the technical side of things more.

EDIT: I'm a professional software developer with a bit of experience with enormous databases and service architecture, so I'm actually qualified to work on this kind of thing. :)

Julio Riddols

12-27-2012, 12:53 PM

This thread is getting me hyped. I dream of a day when we can play in PFS leagues online, complete with career mode. Direct coach against coach and a competent sim engine along with animation? Man.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-27-2012, 12:55 PM

+1

The sim engine is top notch and it has been tremendous fun playing against other people even though I am coming to grips I may be more of a Norv Turner type head coach than a Bill Belicheck :)

Pro Strategy Football

12-27-2012, 01:25 PM

LWSFS, me, too! I usually throw short and a mix of various runs against most of these defenses, and work my way downfield. I do love it when the occasional flea flicker or HB pass works, once the defense is up tight and focusing on Run.

Pro Strategy Football

12-27-2012, 01:28 PM

arun, cool! I'll PM you soon, heading to lunch now.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-27-2012, 04:54 PM

I don't know if this was obvious to anyone else or not, but I just discovered that you can change the routes for your secondary receivers to help free up your primary receiver. I have been able to move the ball much better since making this discovery.

Blackadar

12-27-2012, 07:26 PM

Just bought this...see what happens at FOFC? Only the 3rd app I've ever purchased.

I don't know if this was obvious to anyone else or not, but I just discovered that you can change the routes for your secondary receivers to help free up your primary receiver. I have been able to move the ball much better since making this discovery.

How?

Pro Strategy Football

12-27-2012, 09:25 PM

Just bought this...see what happens at FOFC? Only the 3rd app I've ever purchased.
Cool! I hope you enjoy it!

BTW, I do notice an uptick in reviews in iTunes, and I assume a lot of those are you guys, so thanks!

Julio Riddols

12-27-2012, 09:56 PM

Just bought this...see what happens at FOFC? Only the 3rd app I've ever purchased.

How?

Select the receiver as your primary receiver, change their route, then select another receiver, etc.

Pro Strategy Football

12-27-2012, 10:50 PM

BTW, I've thought that maybe I can add a "routes" screen where you could more easily create route packages, not sure.

Julio Riddols

12-28-2012, 06:08 AM

BTW, I've thought that maybe I can add a "routes" screen where you could more easily create route packages, not sure.

It would be awesome if a few plays could be sort of pre-loaded as a game plan of sorts, maybe allowing for 10 offensive and 5 defensive "hot plays" that users can set up for quick use during games. I could see having a nice 10 play book of plays that I frequently use one click away being very helpful.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-28-2012, 10:44 PM

Segrat,

You should be killing me. I really lucked out on the fumble and blocked kick.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-28-2012, 11:20 PM

Another blocked punt!!!

This one returned for a touchdown.

Better get your boys to practice more special teams next week ;)

In all seriousness, I know you should be up, but hey we got a tie game and hopefully an exciting finish.

Pro Strategy Football

12-28-2012, 11:21 PM

wow, more than one blocked punt in a single game? I've gone many games without even one! I did return an INT for a TD yesterday, though, in a very close match I have going.

Good luck to both of you!

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-28-2012, 11:51 PM

Segrat marches it down about 80 yards with 2:30 left to take a 28-21 lead. I proceed to return the kick for a td. I'm like the AI in madden when it just decides to not let you win. So for those keeping track that's a fumble recovery inside the ten that leads to a td. A blocked punt and another blocked punt returned for a td. With all of that its still a tied game. I must be the worlds worst coach. I can't wait until segrat chimes in about this game.

Pro Strategy Football

12-29-2012, 01:17 AM

Dang, man! What teams are you guys coaching?

BTW, just a note about overtime. If this is a regular season game, it's sudden death right from the start, but if it's a playoff game, the new rules apply. In this case,
(a) if the opening drive is a TD, game's over, they win;
(b) if the opening drive is a change of possession, we're now in sudden death;
(c) if the opening drive is a FG, the other teams gets *one* drive to either tie or win. If they kick a FG, game's tied, and we're now in sudden death. If they score a TD, they win.

Good luck, guys, sounds like a great game!

SegRat

12-29-2012, 10:18 AM

Just crazy

SegRat

12-29-2012, 10:21 AM

Green Bay and San Diego.

SegRat

12-29-2012, 10:22 AM

And now I just got a INT.

This game is crazy.

RedKingGold

12-29-2012, 10:24 AM

This thread just led me to purchase, looking forward to providing some feedback.

SegRat

12-29-2012, 10:32 AM

This thread just led me to purchase, looking forward to providing some feedback.

This is a great game.

SegRat

12-29-2012, 10:51 AM

Throw the ball.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-29-2012, 10:56 AM

Brett favre would never have let himself get sacked like that. All of a sudden my team is playing defense. Only five minutes left in ot. Can I actually sustain a drive? Probably not

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-29-2012, 10:57 AM

This is also why we need a chat feature in the game so we don't spam the thread with play by play as scintillating as it may be :)

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-29-2012, 11:00 AM

Also you have to be a bit nervous every time you punt the ball.

BrianD

12-29-2012, 11:07 AM

I actually enjoy the play-by-play comments during a game.

SegRat

12-29-2012, 11:22 AM

Also you have to be a bit nervous every time you punt the ball.

Yes, yes I am.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-29-2012, 11:54 AM

So with ten seconds left in ot segrat completes a thirty yard pass to set up a fifty yard field goal. And at that moment he decides to step away from the computer! Now I am just waiting to see if it goes through or not...

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

12-29-2012, 12:04 PM

And segrat is the winner. Can't feel too bad, he definitely deserved to win the game.

Trying to anticipate the move of your opponent is a lot of fun. It feels like a real chess match.

Can't wait for the rematch segrat, great game :)

SegRat

12-29-2012, 12:04 PM

Pro Strategy Football

12-29-2012, 02:24 PM

Remember to tap on the "Big Plays" button. You can watch replays of every blocked punt, int, td, etc. :-)

RainRaven

12-31-2012, 12:11 PM

Winding down a game with LWSFS, trying to make a last ditch comeback effort after an awful three Int game by my qb. I don't know who is open to new games this New Year's Eve but I would like to get one or two more going.

SegRat

01-02-2013, 08:53 AM

Im looking to put my 2-0 record up against someone starting tonight if anyone is interested.

Vince, Pt. II

01-02-2013, 09:59 AM

This is a great game.

It really is awesome. Nothing really needs to change, but if I were to suggest something...

...maybe a little more feedback on why a particular play did what it did. "The WR really exploited the seam in the zone defense," "the CB broke up the pass," "the RB tripped over the 15 yard line," or "the WR tried to run before he caught the ball" would be a nice addition to the Play by Play after each play. It'd be nice to be able to be angry at a specific little pixelated player rather than all of them at once :)

Bradley

01-02-2013, 10:05 AM

I'll add my voice for an Android version. I've been waiting for an android app like this for years. I'm probably not a multiplayer guy, but the ability to bang out a game against the computer would be simply awesome.

I will purchase the minute I find out it is available.

Vince, Pt. II

01-08-2013, 11:05 AM

2nd quarter, your team is winning 7-0, 3rd and 18 from their 49 yard line. *Complete screen pass for 14 yards, setting up 4th and 4 from their 35 yard line. *Defense flagged for offsides. *Your choices are 4th and 4 from the 35 (52 yard field goal) or 3rd and 13 from the 44. *Do you accept the penalty?

You are New England playing against Houston. Solid first drive, haven't been able to move the ball for shit since then.

Comey

01-08-2013, 11:13 AM

I'd take the yardage and the FG attempt. No guarantee you can get within range if you take the penalty.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-08-2013, 11:50 AM

The game provides a percentage to let you know how likely it is for the kicker to successfuly make the kick. The kickers aren't particularly accurate from 50 yards out which is why I am guessing Vince is hesitant to attempt the kick. If it is only a 40 percent chance of making it, then it might be better to take the third and thirteen and try for the first down.

WVUFAN

01-08-2013, 12:17 PM

After an hour or so trying out the 2011 version, I'm gonna move up to the big leagues today.

Never would have known about this gem of a game if not for this thread. Kerry, it's very, very cool you're on the forum taking suggestions and providing input. I'm more than happy to support developers like yourself.

WVUFAN

01-08-2013, 01:06 PM

Purchased! I'm hoping to try a multiplayer game if someone wants to play a newbie. My email is [email protected]

Pro Strategy Football

01-08-2013, 02:21 PM

Hey, I've been away and now busy at my job, but took a break and saw these messages. I'll get on tonight, but first:

On the FG attempt, as pointed out, check the Scouting report. Also check the Weather report for wind. Good luck!

WVUFan, thanks! Glad you like it!! Oh, you need a Game Center account to play multiplayer. I'm looking at other options for 2013.

You hit on something that is driving me crazy. I want to make a business of this, but I can't find a way to get my app discovered. If you search for "football" on the app store, you'd never find my game unless you knew to look for it. I'd love ideas!

Ok I'll be back later.

finketr

01-08-2013, 02:40 PM

Kerry, is it?

I hate you.

GB 1&10 on the Pittsburgh 11. 0:43 in the 4th quarter. Down 20-17 after leading the whole way: Thank you, Hail Mary and blocked FG return (f'you)...

loved tlsf and i feel even older now.

finketr

01-08-2013, 02:44 PM

and on 4&28 from the 29yard line because i wasn't really paying attention to try the field goal...

29 yd TD.

10 plays, 53 yds, in 1:19.

finketr

01-08-2013, 02:48 PM

interception to end the game. GB wins 24-20.

Pro Strategy Football

01-08-2013, 04:08 PM

:-)

Sounds like a wild game!

finketr

01-08-2013, 05:15 PM

it was crazy there at the end...

nice job.

Vince, Pt. II

01-08-2013, 05:28 PM

I've found something that likely doesn't qualify for "bug" status, but should be changed. If you take the field without clock management settings and the two minute warning hits before the ball is snapped, the play call screen will show the offensive play in the lower left corner as if the play had been run. If the offense doesn't bother to call a different play, the defense knows exactly what's coming.

I think the clock management screen should have an option to have the play clock expire without even going into formation. Make sure the play call screen goes to the defense so they have a chance to call timeout if they'd like.

jbergey22

01-08-2013, 05:57 PM

I found a little bug when I was playing as well.

Computer had a 4th and 8 or something at my 29 with 19 seconds left in the half. Instead of kicking the FG they went for it and got it then kicked the FG with 4 seconds in the half. Some interesting clock management that is for sure:)

I like this game tho well done and fun.

Any chance of getting real players or just the numbers of real players? The stats get pretty crazy when running backs get 30 carries a game. Id like to see the stats reflect reality just a bit more. Of course I understand this is a work in progress.

WVUFAN

01-09-2013, 11:10 AM

Game Center id is eroy486. I'd love a game with someone.

Pro Strategy Football

01-09-2013, 08:58 PM

wvu, I'll play you sometime! Right now, I'm catching up and trying to figure out what's going on at work. Layoffs are coming this month, dang it. Happy New Year, everyone! :-)

BTW, some great ideas in some private messages from people, regarding career options. Thanks!

Pro Strategy Football

01-10-2013, 07:58 AM

Hey, everyone, Vince brings up a good question, which leads me to a design question.

Vince, you're right about the two-minute thing. I've even used that against my opponent. If I know time is going to expire, I'll call one play as a "feint" and then change it after the two-minute warning.

Since defense may call timeout, and then call their play, offense needs to have a call ready.

However, that brings up a question. If defense calls timeout, should we proceed with the play as we do now, or should a defensive timeout stop this play and send control back to the offense?

Back to the two-minute question, though. If I leave the flow as it is, then on the Results screen, if time expired, don't show the offensive and defensive calls. That would be very simple to do.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-10-2013, 09:27 AM

I can't wait to hear how you decide to implement the career mode!

Still having a blast playing the game. :-)

Pro Strategy Football

01-11-2013, 03:19 PM

Thanks LWSFS! Ok, what I'm doing this weekend is looking over all suggestions here, on my FB page, and on my app's page (my web site is lousy), along with my own ideas, and I'm going to try to create a fairly comprehensive list of ideas.

That includes what little I understand of career mode!

I'll be posting something by Sunday night.

Flasch186

01-12-2013, 08:19 AM

With Career mode and some flashy marketing, this could be a perennial all time HOF app.

SegRat

01-12-2013, 10:59 AM

Career mode would be a great addition. I would easily pay extra for it.

WSR

01-12-2013, 12:26 PM

Just purchased the game. Looking forward to playing a solo game later today!

JPhillips

01-12-2013, 07:49 PM

Good game. I do see some clock management issues. First, the AI no huddles into a punt. Second, the AI was trailing by ten near the end of the first half. They had the ball near midfield and rightly no huddled the first two plays. On third they had a short completion that left them outside of FG range. They punted, but called a timeout before the punt, saving me a timeout.

Pro Strategy Football

01-13-2013, 12:58 PM

Flasch! From your post to God's ears! :-)

SegRat, good to hear it!

WSR, I hope you like it, let us know!

JPhillips, thanks, good catch. Getting the AI just right has been a challenge, especially since I refuse to have it "cheat" (we've all seen games where the computer knows your call and reacts, rather than not cheating). But the things you mentioned should be fairly easy to fix. Thanks!

Pro Strategy Football

01-13-2013, 08:13 PM

Ok, guys! I still need to finish editing the document on Career Mode ideas, but I've thrown up a post listing all the various suggestions you and others have made for PSF.

Take a look, and give feedback either there or here. I'll be prioritizing soon. Since I work on PSF in my spare time, I want to tackle the best things.

http://www.prostrategyfootball.com/?p=966 (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prostrategyfootball.com%2F%3Fp%3D966&h=CAQHARb7d&s=1)

SegRat

01-13-2013, 08:58 PM

It would be amazing if you could get half of the things you have listed. I have been looking for game game like FOF since the iPhone 4 and finally it is here(almost).

JPhillips

01-13-2013, 10:13 PM

That's quite a list.

It's a trivial thing, but I really disagree with the option to call for measurements. That would just add a click to measure any time you came up short. It would never cost you, so you'd do it every time or kick yourself for forgetting. If you want to add a measurement screen it should happen automatically.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-14-2013, 09:47 PM

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-14-2013, 09:50 PM

Kerry,

That's quite a laundry list of features! My quick take is I would be willing to sacrifice some realism for fun. I don't like games that feel like work. Yours has the right balance so please don't lose that!!

Julio Riddols

01-14-2013, 10:43 PM

Yeah, my vote is to keep the managerial aspect as simple as possible at first, then maybe expand that or add other modes in future editions. Simple career mode with very basic financial system and ability to play career leagues online with up to 31 other people would be my top 2 choices to start. Anything done to improve the UI is also welcome, but those top two trump anything else I can imagine.

One thing to consider for a multi player league environment is to set it up so the Commissioner of the league can set a rotating deadline determining how frequently the game will sim ahead, that way any games not played before the deadline can just be auto simmed and players can be informed that a new week has begun. Some kind of smart text recapping system with the ability to autopost results to a message board would be cool too, to kind of highlight key events in the game when it finishes.

a nice bonus would be for the game to be able to interact over multiple platforms so league games could be played on the go or at home on a pc (or both) if so desired.

JimboJ

01-14-2013, 10:45 PM

Just finished a great game. Won 22-14. My opponent had about an 80 yard drive to my 3 yard line with about three minutes left in the game. I couldn't stop him at all. Then my defense tightened. He had fourth and goal at the one and I keyed on his qb and luckily he ran a qb sneak. I stopped him short and then was able to run out the clock.

That was me you beat LWSFS. It was a great game! Congrats on the win, and nice job on the goal line defense calls. Let me know when you're ready for a rematch.

I really do love this game!

Pro Strategy Football

01-14-2013, 11:46 PM

Nice game, guys!! I don't know about you, but I don't mind losing a game like that, it's such fun (as long as I win some, too!).

Julio, thanks - I agree. It has to be fun and easy to do, right? In fact, I'm very open to ways to make it even friendlier.

BTW, I used to have every button take you to another screen. For example, rather than cycling through receivers, it took you to a "receiver" screen. But I think the cycle button works better. However, maybe I can have it create a quick popup right next to the button and you quick tap the one you want.

But Julio's comment also leads to an important point. I do this part time, and have this annoying family that still likes to do things with me, too. :-)

So, I need to make every minute of design and development count, and I appreciate the feedback. For example, I agree that dropping "measurement" makes sense, and I'm glad to see others agree.

The hardest things will be Android and Career. However, maybe I can do career in steps. For example, if I can provide an editor, maybe a draft can wait. Or maybe a draft's not as bad as I think. I just haven't seen it in action yet.

Well, good night, thanks again, guys!

Pro Strategy Football

01-15-2013, 12:08 AM

Hey, BTW, I know nothing of Android, but I know I'll have to select a target version, and one tutorial suggests at least 3.2? Any input on that from you Android users?

aran

01-15-2013, 08:37 AM

Some thoughts on how to implement career mode:

The salary cap can be modeled as a point allocation problem. Players can be valued based on their ratings in a straightforward fashion (this will need tweaking). Give players 1000 points and make them build a roster that comes in below that cap. Some exceptions can be made for injured players so that players can hire fill-ins.

Ratings progression can be done simply. All players have a "potential" rating which indicates how much more they will grow and an experience level. Each position has a peak experience level, and depending on how much players play that experience level goes up. Experience level would go up some default amount per week depending on position. Potential points get shifted into other ratings as experience level goes up. Once maximum experience or some position-specific age threshold is reached, start decaying ratings. Have players randomly retire some number of years after they've peaked, but let the (human) player know at the beginning of the year who plans to retire so they can plan around it.

I can help with the specific math on how these things can work in balanced fashion, but I think it'd be best to keep things simple and design it as a game and not a simulation at the career level.

Start scheduling off easy: double round-robin or single round-robin only.

SegRat

01-15-2013, 10:26 AM

Ratings progression can be done simply. All players have a "potential" rating which indicates how much more they will grow and an experience level. Each position has a peak experience level, and depending on how much players play that experience level goes up. Experience level would go up some default amount per week depending on position. Potential points get shifted into other ratings as experience level goes up. Once maximum experience or some position-specific age threshold is reached, start decaying ratings. Have players randomly retire some number of years after they've peaked, but let the (human) player know at the beginning of the year who plans to retire so they can plan around it.

If I remember correctly, that is exactly how the first FOF game was. I just might have to pop the old disk in and see.

Actually I think I need to play it again just to see how far the game advanced.

markprior22

01-15-2013, 10:32 AM

Just purchased based on this thread. Solid game....interested to see continued development...good job.

Calis

01-15-2013, 11:51 AM

A bit of a change from the career talk but one thing I'd love to see that I've enjoyed in Second and Ten is the ability to say for instance control both offenses and have the AI run the defenses. Really fun change of pace.

Also I'd love either more seasons or some form of roster randomization/fantasy draft to mix things up.. As it stands now bad teams almost seem too bad, just brutal to play some of them.

Absolutely love the game though. Awesome work and most I've played a game on my phone in a long time.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-15-2013, 11:57 AM

Just so you know Kerry (and you might already) the one issue with career mode is the people who play career mode tend not to coach out each game. They tend to just simulate the game based on gameplan sliders provided to the coach before the game. That is obviously completely different than one the game is now. I think the real strength of your game is the coaching out the games. I wonder if career mode was implemented how many people would still coach each game. Based on how much time I have available, I could see myself simulating the regular season based on gameplay sliders and coaching out the playoff games.

So I almost see two apps coming out of this ( I think you alluded to this). One app can be the game as it is now plus new features where the emphasis is multiplayer and coaching each game. The other app or perhaps in an app purchase would be the career aspect and more of a focus on the single player experience.

aran

01-15-2013, 02:12 PM

I would think that the focus of this game will remain on coaching and the career mode will be more of a way of dynamically giving the games you coach an interesting context and increasing player investment.

The rules of the coaching segment don't allow for terribly deep player development, for instance, so focusing on the career aspect alone would not be particularly exciting due to the fact that the broader career mode focus would be all about player development and roster management.

Julio Riddols

01-15-2013, 02:39 PM

I know for sure career mode wouldn't stop me from coaching every game in single player. That's the game I have been looking for since I heard NFL Head Coach was coming out. It would be incredibly rewarding to draft your guys and sign your free agents, then to put them to use on the field game by game, learning their strengths and weaknesses, and finding a way to utilize them on a play by play basis. No more worrying about the A.I. coach making a call you wouldn't have made in any given situation. Maybe adding a "Coach call" button to the play calling screen to speed up parts of the game if so desired, but I would at least want to make the key calls in a game.

Pro Strategy Football

01-16-2013, 12:16 AM

Hey, I love the comments here, because they kind of reflect my own concerns and offer some nice ideas.

I see games like "Big Win" and they're all about the management, not coaching, while my focus has always been on the coaching, kind of like LWSFS implies.

Now, I can see wanting the ability to improve your team, maybe by spending points in coaching a particular part of your game, etc. So let's think outside the box (which I already see happening here, nice!). For example, rather than a real "draft" how else could we improve our team, etc?

One thing I do like, again, is this notion of spending time between season games working on your team's personality and abilities, by spending "time" or "coaching points" in some areas more than others. In single player mode, though, would the other teams remain static, or would we need AI to manage them, too?

Also, how much can we do by offering other seasons, maybe leagues composed of the "Best of" each team, etc? A league might contain the best historical team from each franchise, for example.

Calis is right, I think I made teams *too* disparate in 2012. When I ran dozens of computer simulations, the results came out close to real life, but I now think I should make the differences less glaring.

BTW, another option I've wondered about when creating a match is to decide on what ratings to use: Real, Offensive, Defensive, or Balanced. If you choose Real, then both teams use the ratings currently assigned to them. But if you choose Offensive, for example, I might set all offensive ratings really high on both teams and defensive ratings quite low on both. The teams would match. I'm not sure how I feel about this, because if I make all receivers the same, for example, that removes some strategy.

Anyway, really enjoying the brainstorming here!

One last thing, do you want to see more defensive and offensive options, as listed in the document (zone blitz, 4-5-2, wildcat offense, etc)?

Ok, gnite!

SegRat

01-16-2013, 06:52 AM

BTW, another option I've wondered about when creating a match is to decide on what ratings to use: Real, Offensive, Defensive, or Balanced. If you choose Real, then both teams use the ratings currently assigned to them. But if you choose Offensive, for example, I might set all offensive ratings really high on both teams and defensive ratings quite low on both. The teams would match. I'm not sure how I feel about this, because if I make all receivers the same, for example, that removes some strategy.

I dont like this at all.

One last thing, do you want to see more defensive and offensive options, as listed in the document (zone blitz, 4-5-2, wildcat offense, etc)?

I do like this however. The more defensive and offensive options the better.

Pro Strategy Football

01-16-2013, 08:21 AM

Something to think about - whether to make PSF Career a separate app or an option. Suppose you want to play an exhibition game. Even if you have the Career Mode app, you should be able to coach any team you want, right? And if you coach your primary team in an exhibition game, it shouldn't affect the career growth.

JimboJ

01-16-2013, 09:22 PM

I've said this here before, but I just want to reiterate. The number one goal for a football sim is REALISM. Thinking "outside the box" is not always the best idea. Things like creating super offensive or defensive teams is a bad idea IMO. You have designed a wonderful football coaching simulation. i beg you please don't ruin it with gimmicky stuff like this. There's a reason why it's called a "simulation".

I would love to see career mode added to this game, and I think the posts here show that most people agree. I've been on this forum for several years, and I can assure you the people on these boards are the most knowledgeable, hardcore football simmers you are likely to find anywhere. And trust me when I say we are starving for a well done new career football sim.

Julio Riddols

01-16-2013, 09:45 PM

Even if there is no free agency, a simple draft and basic career mode with 1/1 player for player trades would be a solid start. The key thing I think that would add the most to the game in the most immediate way is just some sort of aging and improving/losing skills mechanism to give it that "just one more game" feel. You could have temporary skill gain and loss (game to game within a season) influenced by consistency and minor injuries, and long term skill gain and loss influenced by work ethic, intelligence, and age. Multiplayer career mode would be the second most important thing to me after basic solo career mode. Almost everything after that is a good couple tiers down in level of importance, IMO. (free agency, financial system, multiple player/pick trades including future picks)

Pro Strategy Football

01-17-2013, 09:12 PM

Thanks, guys. I have a day off tomorrow, so after my dog's trip to the vet, I'm going to work on this. I'm going to take your ideas and think about design. IMHO, good design is the hard part, but also the part that's incredibly important.

The other thing I'd like to do this weekend is to set up a cocos2d-x environment and an Android environment, and see how viable and smooth that goes.

Thanks for all the input. My focus will remain keeping the heart of the app a good simulation, and I'm looking at ways to give the option to people to grow their team over time, while keeping the current version of the app intact.

Pro Strategy Football

01-20-2013, 12:40 PM

Whew, I knew it would be challenging to move to Android, but I had found several tutorials, so I was confident. Well, it's certainly challenging! :-)

I still feel like I've made very little progress, but on the other hand, I've found a lot of things that *don't* work, and that's part of the process. And I'm taking detailed notes.

The issue is that cocos2d-x is still relatively new, and changing very quickly, so most of what I read is out of date. I'm able to figure some things out, hit a snag, google and find others who hit it and what they did, and repeat.

But I'm confident this will work. Cocos2d has been great on the iOS devices, and the same people are developing cocos2d-x. Once I even get the basics working, I have to redesign all screens to use a new approach, in order to support the myriad of resolutions on Android.

I'll update soon!

Marc Vaughan

01-20-2013, 06:21 PM

Whew, I knew it would be challenging to move to Android, but I had found several tutorials, so I was confident. Well, it's certainly challenging! :-)
Feel free to drop me a line if you get stuck - been there done that and the NDK is 'interesting' to use.

Word of warning if you're using the NDK ensure that you flush out a fair few files between 'loads' or you'll find when you do changes and run the game again you'll actually be testing against an old NDK library (the NDK loads like a DLL and stays persistently in memory even when you 'think' your game has closed down).

Marc Vaughan

01-20-2013, 06:48 PM

Hey, BTW, I know nothing of Android, but I know I'll have to select a target version, and one tutorial suggests at least 3.2? Any input on that from you Android users?

It it helps the distribution for users with FMH is approximately:

2.2 - miniscule
2.3 - 10-15%
3.x - 20%
4.x - 65-70%

Other things to bear in mind when making that decision is that without the 'HUGE_HEAP' setting you're very heavily memory restricted on Android (far more than on iOS) - that setting is only usable on 3.0 and above - below that you're got 'around' 20mb of memory to play with on older devices (this is why FMH is restricted to a single league on android if anyone wondered).

Pro Strategy Football

01-20-2013, 06:52 PM

Marc, thanks, I'll touch base with you in PM. It's been disappointing this weekend, hoping I'd have made more progress.

At some point, I may have to take a break from this pursuit to spend more time on the Career Mode design. With limited time at my disposal, it's hard to know where time is best spent.

BTW, what is FMH (I hope that's not too stupid a question, but I'm really tired now)? D'OH! I just found it, clicked on your site, and I remember now. Very impressive!!!

Thanks, Mark!

JPhillips

01-20-2013, 06:55 PM

Ran into a weird bug. On 4th down with time running out in the 3rd quarter the CPU ran a fake FG that was stopped for no gain. The fourth quarter then began with the CPU at 4th and 2 and they got a second try to run a fake kick.

PilotMan

01-20-2013, 07:59 PM

Feel free to drop me a line if you get stuck - been there done that and the NDK is 'interesting' to use.

Word of warning if you're using the NDK ensure that you flush out a fair few files between 'loads' or you'll find when you do changes and run the game again you'll actually be testing against an old NDK library (the NDK loads like a DLL and stays persistently in memory even when you 'think' your game has closed down).

It it helps the distribution for users with FMH is approximately:

2.2 - miniscule
2.3 - 10-15%
3.x - 20%
4.x - 65-70%

Other things to bear in mind when making that decision is that without the 'HUGE_HEAP' setting you're very heavily memory restricted on Android (far more than on iOS) - that setting is only usable on 3.0 and above - below that you're got 'around' 20mb of memory to play with on older devices (this is why FMH is restricted to a single league on android if anyone wondered).

Marc, thanks, I'll touch base with you in PM. It's been disappointing this weekend, hoping I'd have made more progress.

At some point, I may have to take a break from this pursuit to spend more time on the Career Mode design. With limited time at my disposal, it's hard to know where time is best spent.

BTW, what is FMH (I hope that's not too stupid a question, but I'm really tired now)? D'OH! I just found it, clicked on your site, and I remember now. Very impressive!!!

Thanks, Mark!

This is why I love this place. One dev willing to help another and we all benefit. :)

Pro Strategy Football

01-20-2013, 11:02 PM

I agree, great group of guys here!

JPhillips, that *is* weird! I'll have to see if I can duplicate that! Thanks for sharing.

digamma

01-21-2013, 12:09 AM

dave731

01-21-2013, 06:47 AM

Just picked this game up based largely on this thread...good times so far. My gamecenter name is jayhawkdave3

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 09:21 AM

AI play calling.

Hey, I'm looking over the FOF web site, mainly screenshots right now, for ideas, and I realize I need to expose more information in my app. For example, each team does have preferences as to formations and blitzing, and I actually have an array that's used by the computer for play-calling. It's not used when a person coaches the team, of course.

It's very similar to this (http://www.solecismic.com/fofscreen/offbasic2007.jpg) except I also break it down by specific play and also by field position: (a) inside your own 20, between the 20s, and in the red zone. For example, one team might be more conservative in its on end of the field than another team, and might open up a lot between the 20s.

Moreover, in each zone on the field, and for each situation (down and distance), I have percentages for each play - middle runs, inside runs, outside runs, short pass, medium pass, and long pass.

I should find a way to expose this information to anyone who wants it, from the scouting screen. Real estate is the main problem.

Blackadar

01-21-2013, 09:46 AM

Given the recommendations on this site, PSF was only the 3rd app I've ever purchased. It's a fun little app and I've enjoyed it thus far. I'm going to offer a few suggestions below prior to career mode getting started, but please note that I've generally been pleased. Please don't take my suggestions as general dissatisfaction with the product.

FYI, I've played with the Steelers for two complete seasons. They're a pretty potent team.

1. Long plays (running) - there just aren't enough of them. I'm not just talking about the 80 yard run. I'm taking about the 15-25 yard run. Playing a game, it's not uncommon for me to have a 3.0 YPC. In two seasons, I've averaged 3.3 and 3.4 YPC with my main halfback but gained more than 1,000 yards both seasons. That's just too low and it's tough to sustain a running game.

Simulating is better, but not great. 4 of the top 10 RBs don't even average 4.0 yards per carry. There were zero guys in the top 10 of the NFL who averaged less than 4.0 yards per carry.

2. Running wide is useless. Sweeps rarely gain over 3 yards. This probably has something to do with #1.

3. I'd like to see fatigue modeled in the game. Running games are thought to be most effective when you gas the defense. When I'm holding the ball for a long time (in part due to the lack of big plays) per drive, the defense should be wiped by the 4th quarter.

4. Even the passing game is a little understated. In my last season, the top QBs averaged 7.8, 6.2, 6.6, 6.6 and 7.0 yards per attempt. 9 out of 10 of the top passers in the NFL this year averaged 7.0 or more. Again, it has something to do with the lack of long plays. 6 of the top 10 had a pass for 70 yards or more. In my latest league, 1 of the top 10 has a pass for 70 yards or more. One QB's best throw is a paltry 42 yards. Not a major issue, but it's something to tweak.

5. Defense isn't that much fun. Why can't we designate a zone blitz? Without it, the 3-4 defense isn't that useful because the lack of rush on a 2 deep or 3 deep coverage kills the defense. A few more defensive options would help make coaching the defense more fun and strategic. As it is, even with a 3-4 team like the Steelers, I find myself in a base 4-3, 2 deep zone for 50% of the downs because of the lack of options.

6. There should be a "one click" coaching suggestion button. Instead, you have to hit "coach", "help on this play" and then "suggest a play". That's two many clicks too many. I believe that many players like to speed through the defense to get to the next offensive series. One-click coaching suggestions would help that along.

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 10:03 AM

Blackadar, thanks for the input - that's what I want!

I have thought that I need to open the offense a little, although not to the extent of some games where you get 500 yards rushing a game. :-)

I still want it to be difficult to sustain a drive, I want it to feel like an accomplishment, but I do think we should have a little more big plays.

On defense, if you call a 3-4 zone, then by default, one of your outside linebackers rushes (I forget which, would have to look it up). In fact, I almost always play 3-4 and either Man or Two-Deep. I'll play 4-3 and shift my line around to try to throw you off, too.

I think adding Zone Blitz is a good idea! I need to research it more.

BTW, I have fatigue in the game, but commented it out because I found I was destroying the computer in the fourth computer if I'd amassed a sizable advantage in time of possession. I want to put it back in, just need to test it more.

I like your idea about the coach. My big problem is real estate. I can put "suggest a play" on the coach menu, but I don't see where I can put it on the main offensive screen. See my next post for an idea, too.

Thanks again - I really will look into opening the offense.

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 10:05 AM

Hey, a few of you have ideas on the UI, and I do think that's an area that could always be improved. I'm very open to ideas on the UI, would love to improve it, so if you see where I can put buttons, I'd appreciate it.

For example, I could take the "Clock" button off the menu and just let you tap the Clock itself to manage it, but even as is, I've actually had people ask me "how do I manage the clock" or "how do I call timeout"?

Tied closely to that is an idea of progressively getting more of the options.

I have thought that what I should have done is have the game start out with much fewer options, and you earn more options as you play. That way, you learn them. For example, you wouldn't see the Clock button until the first time you hit a two-minute warning, and then there would be a big deal made about it. "Congratulations! Your team has practiced two-minute warnings during the week and you can now manage the clock!"

Passacaglia

01-21-2013, 10:08 AM

I wonder if there's a way to get a distribution of yards gained on pass and run plays. Is that kind of data available somewhere?

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 10:41 AM

Hey, one more small bug I found. Not a big deal at all, but I think missed field goals, the ball gets spotted at the line of scrimmage of the team that missed the field goal. In the real life pros, the ball gets spotted at the spot of the kick.

(so if the ball is at the 26 and gets kicked from the 33, the other team gets the ball at the 33 if the kick is missed)

Wow, digamma, when I wrote the original, I swear, I thought it was placed at the point of the snap, not the kick! But I did a quick google, and you're right!

NFL Rules Digest: Field Goal (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/fieldgoal)

Thanks - I did not know that!

SegRat

01-21-2013, 11:41 AM

I would agree that yards per play needs to be bumped up.

Passacaglia

01-21-2013, 12:10 PM

Wow, digamma, when I wrote the original, I swear, I thought it was placed at the point of the snap, not the kick! But I did a quick google, and you're right!

NFL Rules Digest: Field Goal (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/fieldgoal)

Thanks - I did not know that!

The rule changed maybe 15 years ago.

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 12:17 PM

The rule changed maybe 15 years ago.

Oh my! :redface:

I'm going to embarrass myself here and admit that I haven't followed NFL rules as much since the early 90s (the original code is from 92-94 era), although I looked last year to make sure I had clock management right, and found out about the newer OT rules for playoff games.

So ... if you find any other rules I've missed, let me know. And thanks again for this catch!

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 12:27 PM

Segrat and others, right now for runs, I compute the following, based on call, ratings, weather, etc:
- loss_pct
- mg_pct (chance of getting a medium gain, 10-20 yds or so)
- lg_pct (chance of getting more than 20 yards)
- average (if neither mg or lg)
- average from defense

for passes, it's similar:
- comp_pct (get the ball TO the receiver, but he can still drop it)
- pr_pct (qb is pressured, now how's he handle it)
- int_pct (hit a defender in the hands, he can still drop it)
- mg_pct (more than average)
- lg_pct (break for long gain)
- sack_pct (chance of an outright sack, versus pr_pct)
- pr_strength (strength of the pass rush, comes into play to pressure qb)
- average (if neither mg or lg)

I think I'll look at specific circumstances, but will probably bump up some numbers. For example, I could bump up the sg, mg, and lg percentages, which would increase the overall averages but still let the defense stop people. But I might also want to improve offensive performance *when defenses are right* to allow slightly more sustained drives.

I think I'll still leave it a little harder in the red zone - although I now think I should add some more attributes for how each team performs in the red zone, both offensively and defensively. I already use the QB leadership ratings in the red zone, but I think I'll expand that.

Someone suggested the other day that I add a "clutch" rating to field goal kickers, too. I like that idea! It would come into play very late in a game or overtime, especially if the kick is critical.

Blackadar

01-21-2013, 12:31 PM

Oh my! :redface:

I'm going to embarrass myself here and admit that I haven't followed NFL rules as much since the early 90s (the original code is from 92-94 era), although I looked last year to make sure I had clock management right, and found out about the newer OT rules for playoff games.

So ... if you find any other rules I've missed, let me know. And thanks again for this catch!

I don't think there's an unintentional face mask any more either.

Senator

01-21-2013, 12:34 PM

Waiting for the Android version so I can play on my Nexus 7. The smartphone is just too small for me to enjoy games in general. But, following closely, as the coaching aspect is what appeals to me most.

Buccaneer

01-21-2013, 12:49 PM

My suggestion is to keep the play-calling level as it is now; add more plays but don't make it more needlessly "busy" by exposing more information.

Marc Vaughan

01-21-2013, 02:30 PM

I like your idea about the coach. My big problem is real estate. I can put "suggest a play" on the coach menu, but I don't see where I can put it on the main offensive screen. See my next post for an idea, too.

Do you support multiple layouts depending on the device its running on? - I ask because on the iPad I'd expect you'd have adequate space for this sort of thing and in my experience users of such devices really appreciate developers who try and cater to each devices unique strengths ...

If you install Football Manager Handheld (FMH) onto an iPad and an iPhone and then compare the two you'll find that some pages are very similar (esp. menus), however frequently additional information will be available on the iPad version and in a few cases the entire page will be specifically laid out differently to enhance the UI based on the larger physical size of the iPad.

Pro Strategy Football

01-21-2013, 07:03 PM

Marc, I handle the extra width of the iPhone 5, but I haven't written an iPad version yet. It's in my huge wish list!

What do you guys think of 2013 requiring that users work their way through the screens, earning more options as they play - not to annoy anyone, but to make sure they see all the options out there.

And I don't know how to teach people about tactics, other than I know I need to make more videos. For example, I'll play people and see them call play action pass on 3rd and 16 or stunt out of a run defense. I'm not being critical here, some people just don't know those things (just like I missed out on some rule changes!!). Instead, I'm thinking I need to come up with a way to tell them.

On the issue of career mode, I have copied all the comments here, along with some very detailed PMs I've received, and I'm going to work through them. This past weekend was dedicated to investigating Android work, and I'll come back to that, but I'm going to switch bases to look at features a bit, because next September will be here before we know it!

Julio Riddols

01-22-2013, 04:02 AM

I think if you just have a "tutorial game" with 3 minute quarters or something, you could use that as a way to introduce features.

Having the option to call route combinations from a play book that you can build or setting up the play at the line of scrimmage for any given play would be one of the best options for speeding up playcalling I think. For creating offensive plays, route combinations are really the only thing that need to be able to be created. set the preferred routes for 5 receivers, which creates your route combination, which when selected can be effectively "ported" into any offensive formation. Say I have a combination that I typically run from the run n shoot formation, where the receivers run the following from left to right:

1 (leftmost outside wr in run n shoot) : medium in
2 (left slot receiver) : quick out (designated by radio button as primary read)
3 (single back) : deep streak
4 (right slot receiver) : medium hook
5 (rightmost outside wr) : medium out

below that there can be an option for RB's to ignore the route and block if this combination is called.

Now lets say I ran that out of a pro set, strong left:

The route combination would then be mapped to the players in the same order they show in this formation, regardless of position.

1 (left most WR) : medium in
2 (strong side TE) : quick out (designated by radio button as primary read)
3 (RB) : deep streak
4 (FB) : medium hook
5 (right most WR) : medium out

Since for this combination I don't have the RB's set to ignore and block, they are given the routes in the order they come. The play could still be fine tuned at this point with primary receiver being changed, routes being switched or players being kept in to block, but it would cut down on a lot of the time it takes to call pass plays to not have to go and set a whole bunch of different routes, and would help if there are certain combinations you like to run often.

JPhillips

01-22-2013, 07:47 AM

I don't know if it really makes a difference on runbacks, but the last punt return blocker never engages one of the gunners. He just runs by them even if they are right next to the returner.

Pro Strategy Football

01-22-2013, 08:20 AM

Julio, great idea! Are you saying that these come up as the default patterns the first time you select the formation? But if you change a pattern, what should show the next offensive play? I'd assume the patterns you've set, as now. So maybe add a button (maybe on the offensive play screen below the passes) that lets you revert to the default set?

Hey, I like the the option to let any back or TE stay back to block. I think the easiest way to do that is to add "Stay and Block" as a Pattern for backs and tight ends, because of real estate (and it lets me be flexible in choosing who to hold back). What do you think?

However, can you guys help me think about the logic involved? I can bump up the pass blocking (but not to the point where it makes it impossible to pressure the qb), but there also needs to be some downside, or players will just always leave them back to block.

What do you think the downside to leaving one or more men back to block, versus running patterns? It seems it would improve the coverages just a little, since there are less people to cover?

JPhillips, thanks! Animation in the game doesn't affect the results, but it should look right, and you're right, I missed that, and it looks goofy. :-) Thanks!

Julio Riddols

01-22-2013, 06:31 PM

Sorry if this image is huge, but I was bored today and this is what happened. A playcalling interface idea:

http://i.imgur.com/yDM7v5Q.jpg

Julio Riddols

01-22-2013, 06:39 PM

Additional information regarding some of the buttons up there. The way I set this up, clicking the "COMBINATIONS" button in the play calling screen would open up to 20 pre-set route combinations in the User Dynamic Display screen. You'd select the route combination you want, then it would load the 5 routes in order from left to right for the 5 receiving options shown, which are in this case the SE, FB, RB, TE, and FL. Also, for the button that shows NO HUDDLE, it would be a cycling button that can be set to either NO HUDDLE, SPIKE, NORMAL, or RUN CLOCK, which determines the time taken before running the next play. The Motion button would cycle through the receiving options, putting them in motion one by one until the guy you choose is in motion. It should probably default to no motion after each play so you don;t have to cycle back through to take motion off after running a play using motion.

Pro Strategy Football

01-22-2013, 07:42 PM

Julio, that's really cool, I can't believe you did that! Nice!

One thing, though. I'm not sure this would work on an iPhone? It would be great on an iPad, I'd think, though! I'll try to lay it out on an iPhone to see, but Apple likes the buttons to be 44 points tall (I have gone a tad small if necessary) because of people's fingers, and the iPhones are 320 points tall (not pixels, that varies).

But I think it's great how you present everything there, and it gets me to thinking. And I think it would be a great start for the iPad, what do you think? The iPad would also have room to show the whole field down below if we want.

Thanks again!

Pro Strategy Football

01-22-2013, 07:45 PM

Pro Strategy Football

01-22-2013, 07:55 PM

I just lost a great game to Baltimore (Edward over on FB). The game took several days (thank goodness for turn-based play), but the fourth quarter was great.

Even though I lost, It was a great game! I missed two fieldgoals, including one at 0:10 left in the game that would have won it. Edward (Baltimore) scored 17(!!) points in the fourth quarter! I threw a stupid interception with about three minutes left, then he completed a pass and run for a long gain. I saw he was going to score so I used all my timeouts to have some time left.

Well, it almost worked. I worked my way down to his 25 with 0:10 left, but since I had no timeouts left, I didn't dare try another pass, and I missed the fieldgoal.

Final score: 17-16!

Julio Riddols

01-22-2013, 08:09 PM

Hey, quick question about career and role-playing. I'm rereading a document a fellow PM'd me over on FB, and it's pretty amazing. He described it as the "Oregon Trail of Football" - random events like your HB getting the flu, or maybe someone getting arrested for DUI, or good events, too.

And you, as the coach, would be interviewed by the media each week, and your answers could slightly affect your team. In addition, you'd choose areas to focus on.

Question - is this something that's usually in career mode games, or is it more than the usual career mode? I ask because I like this. It lets you affect your team each week.

I'm still a little leery on a draft in multiplayer and in designing the computer AI. I know it should be part of the overall plan, just need to think about it more.

It's not something seen in most sims. The only game I think there is with that kind of depth is Football Manager, but there may be others I am just unaware of. I kind of like the idea of the Oregon trail of football, and have always thought extremely improbable events should happen in games. I'm talking about things that have 1 in a million type probability.. Stuff like fan man parachuting onto the field mid game, or a streaker on the field, or even things as extreme as player deaths or scandals like the bounty scandal. Compared to getting the basic game play hammered out and solid this is a luxury item, but
if done right, something that gives the game more personality like post game interviews/locker room pep talks/contract squabbles/team infighting/extraordinary life events would be awesome to flesh out the game when everything else is operating at or near its peak.

I agree that the graphic up there would be a bit much for an iPhone, but I do think iPads and PC's would be great for it. I think its slightly overwhelming putting that much on one screen, but a quick tutorial would explain what everything does on there fairly easily.

Pro Strategy Football

01-22-2013, 08:16 PM

Yeah, on an iPad or desktop, we could spread it out a little, but it's a good idea.

The more I think about what he sent me (there's more, including some of the stuff you're talking about with locker rooms, pep talks, etc), the more I think that might be the kind of thing that could differentiate the app from others.

Thanks, Julio!

SirBlurton

01-23-2013, 08:35 AM

Hello, just stumbled on this thread.

Just want to say I love PSF as it is - but really like the ideas you talked about to introduce a bit of randomness from week to week. I think the "Oregon Trail" idea described would really add to the existing engine's strengths and give a reason to play "one more week" to see what happens next.

As I think about it - might be cool to have the off-season event based too, rather than having to do a full draft/FA. For example, select the options "focus on d-line in draft" and "find veteran WR in free agency".

For the draft, you could have outcomes of ("bust" -ratings get worse), ("no change"-ratings stay the same), ("upgrade" - ratings improve, "Rookie Sensation" - ratings improve more).

For free agency, have a different set of more predictable returns - but less potential for boom/bust.

Also want to have some randomness in team "aging" - where the longer you have a player/o-line/d-line in a position, the more likely they are to degrade and have to be addressed via draft or FA.

The primary strength of the game is in the sim gameplay, I think some abstraction in GM mode would be more than ok!

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-23-2013, 09:51 AM

I would be careful with the Oregeon Trail of football stuff. I think it could be good in small doses. Just try not to overdo it. There was a basketball text game a couple years back that tried to incorporate real life events and every week of the sim, I was busy breaking up locker room fights. It became repetitive and tiresome (to me). In my opinion, if a player gets a flu or a DUI it should be something that occurs maybe once or twice a season. Also games that do include a personality component usually have an option to turn it off since it can be a polarizing feature.

I think having fatigue carry over from game to game could be worthwhile. For instance, if a qb has a terrible offensive line, maybe he is more likely to get injured or play poorly the next game because he was hit so much the previous game or if a rb carries the ball 30 games in week 1 maybe he isnt 100 percent in week 2.

I also think Sirblurton's ideas about the draft could be a nice compromise if you are unable to do a full featured draft.

Again, I think you have a great game and the stuff we are talking about are fun features, but to me the most important part of the game is the in game coaching which I think is top notch (and I do like the idea of keeping TEs and rbs in to block which helps the offense in protection, but might make it harder to have a wr get open) so as long as that stays in I will be buying the next version of your game no matter what .

Pro Strategy Football

01-23-2013, 02:39 PM

SirBurton, I want to thank you for great tips, especially the one about the draft! I look at all the stuff I'd like to get done for 2013, it's pretty big. Abstracting the draft like this simplifies the design and the UI and lets it fit without being onerous.

LWSFS, I agree that the app will remain a coaching app, and want to add more coaching options. This new stuff should be optional (maybe even a separate app) and should apply only to career-season games.

Then again, I wonder if it should just be an innate part of season play. As you say, don't go overboard. BTW, maybe you should age, too, as the coach.

I do like the random events. I already have season injuries that cqn be multiple games.

Good stuff, guys!

SirBlurton

01-23-2013, 04:04 PM

Hah, you're welcome, it's really fun to exercise the game design muscle without having to actually implement any of it! :)

Agree with LWSFS/your comments.

I think you have such an engrossing coaching sim, that the rest is just window dressing for flavor and re-playability. You don't want it to be overpowering because your game's core strength is coaching. Spending time making that part better with the ideas you've listed on your site is going to give you the most "bang for the buck" entertainment-wise.

Trying to create a fully featured draft/FA system could be a huge task for not much return. People who want that much detail in the off-season already have games that can scratch that itch (ie-FOF2007). I think people want to be able to "shape" their team to their play style or rebuild a loser, but it can be subtle - you also don't want to be able to create a world-destroying juggernaut after 2 seasons.

I'd vote for career mode being built into season play - if people want it to work like the current game, they could just play Season 1 over and over. I don't know how hard "in app purchases" are to implement, but a "career mode" option would be one I would purchase without hesitation.
Can't believe I just advocated that approach. :)

And having your coach age could be interesting....will I be able to re-build my horrible team into a consistent winner before I retire?

Anyway, sorry for the too long post - your game is just too darn inspirational!

aran

01-23-2013, 04:57 PM

Random events can be cute a few times, but after playing the game for any non-negligible amount of time they turn into "will the dice come down in my favor or will the game screw me?" which I don't think is the kind of environment you want for the great coaching simulation. There's already enough randomness in playing out games to keep variability really high and keep the game interesting, there's no need to have a lot of rare events that have dramatic effects on your roster otherwise. I would suggest keeping the offseason stuff pretty direct and simple, regardless of what you do, and avoid the frills--it's not easy to make the career part fun and balanced, so I'd suggest trying to keep it as easy on yourself as a designer as you can without it being braindead easy for players to manipulate or so random that players won't feel like they have much to do with their team's success in terms of personnel management.

Flasch186

01-23-2013, 06:27 PM

Trying to create a fully featured draft/FA system could be a huge task for not much return.

I havnt said much but on this note I think I havnt disagreed with a sentiment more this year....so far anyways.

JimboJ

01-23-2013, 07:24 PM

There have been a lot of great ideas thrown around here. However you are in a unique position with this game, in that you have NO competition. As far as I know there is no other football sim for a mobile device. All you really need to do is just have stick with the basics (improving coach mode and adding a simple but solid career mode), and avoid the temptation to add lots of gimmicks.The fact is you just don't need lots of bells and whistles right now . You are the only game in town. If you focus your energy on building a solid game platform for this year, you'll build a loyal following, who will come back year after year to buy your latest version. Why do think people are still playing FOF 6 years after the last version was released?

Flasch186

01-23-2013, 07:27 PM

This

Pro Strategy Football

01-23-2013, 08:22 PM

JimboJ, that would be great, although I have to wonder about the demand. Madden tried a coaching game some years back and gave up. However, a coaching focus is still my favorite, so I'll keep refreshing it each year.

My quandary is time. I clearly can't do everything on the list I created, working part time a few nights a week and occasional weekends, so I have to see what I can do - both to reward my customers and to hopefully draw more next year.

I think the priorities are these:
(1) work on the simulation side, adding formations, improving simulation, improving the teams, add more information at the end of plays;
(1a) allowing use of player names (even if bogus) and jersey numbers
(2) the UI, always looking for ways to make it more immersive and still as friendly and intuitive as possible;
(3) improve the multiplayer experience and allow league play. Aran and I have batted around some ideas that I think will work. My desire is to get off Game Center, allow creation of multiplayer leagues, preferably even of different numbers of teams, though not necessary in the first pass.

I think getting those three things done are paramount with the original mission of the game. Adding some sort of role-playing or career wrapper is next, and I think it should be a combination of some minor random events and decisions. The random events wouldn't be any worse than injuries are now, and in fact I can work the numbers to make sure they're not worse, just more varied to spice the game up. Maybe a few times a season, one of your key players may be out due to flu or a DUI or something.

Part of the "Oregon Trail" suggestion from the other fellow involves setting up your coach at the very beginning (are you a "player coach," are you balanced or are you focused on defending the run, etc), and then every preseason you make some decisions such as - do I focus evenly on all offensive options, or do I focus heavily on a spread offense, do I have my team practice short passes a lot, etc. These would have small but noticeable effects on your team's performance in those areas (and the neglected areas) during the season, and they'd also indicate to opponents what your focus is.

Then each week, you could again focus on something. The key is, the effects of each of these decisions would be small but still contribute, allowing you to affect your team.

And always, this should be optional. A lot of people want to play the teams as they are. Even then, it might be nice to work up a nice editor to edit leagues, teams, and players - that alone would take more than a few weeks to do right and test.

One of the difficulties with any of this is implementing it in a multiplayer league. But more on that later.

Enjoying the dialogue!

Pro Strategy Football

01-23-2013, 08:24 PM

BTW, I think I/we are going to have to look at this as incremental releases. Maybe I don't implement a full draft in the game for September 2013, but provide an editor, which would allow people to do their own "draft" outside the game and then edit the game's league to mirror that. And then, once people have tried different things, we know the best features and approach to implement the draft in the game in a future release.

Ok, heading to walk the dogs. Thanks again!

Pro Strategy Football

01-23-2013, 08:25 PM

oops, one last thing for now - if anyone has any ideas on a web site for the app, I'm certainly open! Whether it's improving the site (www.prostrategyfootball.com) or hosting it on a different server, etc.

JimboJ

01-23-2013, 10:06 PM

I don't think you can go wrong with those as your priorities. If you don't have time to implement career mode, maybe one of us would be willing to help create an add on for it.

I honestly think the demand for this type of game is there. If you look at the success of FMH (soccer) and iOOTP (baseball), and you consider that football is the most popular sport in the US. Add to that the proliferation of mobile devices, there would seem to be a market for PSF. The key is to get the word out.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

01-23-2013, 11:39 PM

I'm having a great game with jimboj so far. I was able to complete my first flea flicker ever for 31 yards! So yes, it can be done :)

Pro Strategy Football

01-24-2013, 07:59 AM

Larry Esposito

01-25-2013, 12:17 PM

BTW, I apologize that I haven't pushed an update. I really need to get this chat into the game. I've added something very ugly, where a popup lets you enter one line of text, and another to show the message your opponent sent, if one. It's not true "chat" in that it doesn't have emotes and doesn't show the chat history. If you know of any third-party library or good example in the wild of implementing chat, let me know.

I have found some good links with good suggestions for the full blown chat in 2013, using a database. For now, I'll probably push the ugly one out.

Hi,

Lots of great advice has already been given. I will offer something that might be outside the box, but IMO, would be cool and less effort.

I agree with the career mode suggestions, and that is a feature that keeps us all coming back. Seems to be quiet an undertaking for you though. There is another possibility that can add a lot of strategy and depth to the game with (maybe) less work. BTW, I have not played the game since I do not have an apple device (though my son does). I do remember Tom Landry Football.

Back around the time frame of TLSFB, there was another great FB game called TV Sports Football. I believe the devs went on to create FrontPage Sports FB. You will initially think of it as a arcade game, but it was a bit deeper.

I had a friend who tried to come up with the perfect team to beat me. He finally did, after 2 years or so. I had the game, he didn't, so his angle was to use the ratings of the players to make his team, then run the plays that played to those strengths.

The game had, IIRC, 24 players. You had a certain amount of points to distribute btw Speed, Strength, etc. The caveat was that your players could only use so many points, so that you had one player ranked as #1, he had the most attribute points, next would be #2 with one less and so on down to #24.

With regards to your game, you can use a similar system, of course, hopefully with more players and options. This works best with season play, but maybe you could adapt to career mode. Think points instead of salary cap.

Just a thought...Good Luck and thanks for polling the site for opinions!

Pro Strategy Football

01-25-2013, 06:08 PM

Pretty cool, Larry, thanks! Glad you remember TLSF! I'll look at those apps and the points idea!

I really do hope to someday get PSF on many more platforms, so you and your son will be able to play each other.

Pro Strategy Football

01-27-2013, 09:54 PM

hey guys, I've found a better presentation for the chat. I'm still working on it (part of the problem is mixing UIKit with cocos2d, mixed coordinates, etc), and I need to add the text field to allow you to enter your text.

I also need to tell the user that you can send only one message per turn, and only when it's your turn (and I'll disable or hide the text field when it's not your turn).

Real estate's always an issue, especially in landscape mode, so here's a screen shot I made. It's actual code, but using an array of messages and not text entry string yet.

A couple of questions:
(1) do you need/want to see the scoreboard? If not, I can put the instructions message up there (about sending only one string).

(2) I don't have to make it the full width, but thought it looks nicer. your thoughts?

(3) along those lines, I can make the text bubbles wider, too, and put a time stamp above or below them

(4) where to put the chat button?!? I think the only place I have left is somewhere on the scoreboard!

basically, you'll be able to send one text with your turn, but I'll keep the data on both devices (since I don't have a server up for this yet).

In the 2013 version, I'd make messages asynchronous, so you could send a message at any time.

Julio Riddols

01-27-2013, 11:08 PM

I think that looks excellent. Maybe just make one of the team names into a button? Click on the other teams name to chat.

Pro Strategy Football

01-27-2013, 11:25 PM

what if I put a chat bubble next to the teams? and if your opponent sent you a message, change the color to something other than white (until you read it) - yellow?

I'm working on the text field now.

SegRat

01-28-2013, 06:35 AM

Looks fantastic.

markprior22

01-29-2013, 04:08 PM

Just finished my first game against a human opponent (Cowboys 18, Bears 10) and must say it was really fun. It took us a couple of days to get through the game but I enjoyed it. Thanks for a solid app that will only get better!

Pro Strategy Football

01-29-2013, 06:38 PM

That's great, Mark! Yeah, I've found that a game can go fairly quickly only if you're both playing at the same time, but most often, I've had games take quite a while (several days!).

One fellow asked if I could make variable size quarters, but I think the current Scenario Editor is a better option. I usually use it to create a match where I'm behind against the computer with only minutes left, but you can also use it to create a match against a person where it's the fourth quarter or maybe even the start of the second half.

Glad you're enjoying it!

Pro Strategy Football

01-30-2013, 08:46 PM

nearly done with chat, and also added some other changes requested here and on FB. I'll be testing a lot this weekend and then publish it.

If you have any suggestions or questions, let me know by Saturday!

SegRat

01-30-2013, 09:51 PM

Looks great. Will be nice being able to chat during the game.

Pro Strategy Football

01-30-2013, 09:56 PM

My wife says I should call it Smack Talk rather than Chat :-)

Pro Strategy Football

01-31-2013, 08:06 AM

Hey, I was thinking about the speed of gameplay, and I had a thought. I could add a "Fast Game" option on the Create Game screen. If you select that option, that plays consume twice as much time as now (~90 seconds vs ~45) EXCEPT in the last 5 minutes of each half, overtime, and any time the offense is hurrying or spikes the ball (and of course, timeouts stop the clock).

I'm going to look into that ...

hmm, it would skew stats for that game, though. I wouldn't think you should do that for season games. Like I say, I'm thinking through it, and for 2013 ... I do think it's a nice option for quick games.