Students Have Whites-Only Prom in Taylor Co. GA [Archive]

Easy Mac

05-01-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
Easy, the fact is that there are parts of our country that are very, very rural and very, very set in their ways. In the minds of many in Taylor County, there is no other way to be "fair" but to have two class presidents.

SD,
I've lived the past 13 years of my life in SC, basically my whole impressionable youth there, 8 spent in a rural town known as Chester. I know about how backward people are, people protested when a black man ran for mayor (and won, though supposedly he had dead people from his funeral home vote for him, but whatever).

That being said, the only way to be fair is to have mixed elections and let the kids decide. They're kids, they don't know enough to be racist, at least not all the time. There is a reason kids go to high school, its to keep adults out.

WSUCougar

05-01-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Easy Mac
They're kids, they don't know enough to be racist, at least not all the time.
Whoops, I've got to throw a penalty flag on ya there, Easy. I strongly disagree with your statement.

"Unrealistic Idealism...5 yard penalty...on the defense...repeat the down."

vex

05-01-2003, 04:21 PM

And I thought Oklahoma was messed up.

Ok, maybe it is;)

But definitely not this much.

grdawg

05-01-2003, 04:23 PM

I was really shocked 7 yrs ago when I attended UGA, how closed-minded people were. It seems not much has changed in Georgia. It's never going to end, until the parents stop teaching this to their kids. I remember seeing a commercial where there are little black girls playing and they say to the white girl, come play with us and she goes coming, then her mother says to her, why don't you go play with the girls over there (the white ones) and she says why mommy? Well at least Georgia finally changed the state flag (about freaking time)

vex

05-01-2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Easy Mac
They're kids, they don't know enough to be racist, at least not all the time.

Uh, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this, bigtime. It's not that difficult to be racist.

sterlingice

05-01-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by SplitPersonality1
Could this be a thread in which we are all in agreement? (I hope so).

Despite what subtle or hidden prejudices some might have, I don't think anyone on the board is a out and out overt racist. I don't think this is a hard thing to get a consensus over. It's like getting people to agree that the sun will likely rise tomorrow or that drinking poision is hazardous to one's health.

SI

CamEdwards

05-01-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by sterlingice
Despite what subtle or hidden prejudices some might have, I don't think anyone on the board is a out and out overt racist. I don't think this is a hard thing to get a consensus over. It's like getting people to agree that the sun will likely rise tomorrow or that drinking poision is hazardous to one's health.

SI

The sad thing is, there are apparently enough racists still around to allow something like this to happen in rural Georgia. You'd think this wouldn't be a hard thing to get a consensus over, but if were really that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion.

detroit_fan

05-01-2003, 04:36 PM

Is this not illegal?

Franklinnoble

05-01-2003, 04:39 PM

Ahh, the enlightened minds spawned in the land of "Deliverance."

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
The sad thing is, there are apparently enough racists still around to allow something like this to happen in rural Georgia. You'd think this wouldn't be a hard thing to get a consensus over, but if were really that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion. Up until last year, the black kids apparently wanted it this way too. Which ones were racists then, the blacks, the whites, or both???

I think a lot of you are making some assumptions. From what I know of the racial climate in Taylor County, Georgia, you're making some very false ones.

KWhit

05-01-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by grdawg
Well at least Georgia finally changed the state flag (about freaking time)

Trying not to threadjack, but that issue isn't dead yet. The new mayor of GA used the flag issue as a plank in his platform while he campaign. The legislature is planning on a referendum on the ballot next year so that Georgians can vote on what the flag should be. As of right now it looks like the one with the confederate emblem on it will be a choice that can be voted for.

Fritz

05-01-2003, 04:50 PM

I think this is a local issue and should be delt with at that level by the people involved.

RonnieDobbs

05-01-2003, 04:56 PM

The thread being discussed is here (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009385).

Anrhydeddu

05-01-2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
Up until last year, the black kids apparently wanted it this way too. Which ones were racists then, the blacks, the whites, or both???

I think a lot of you are making some assumptions. From what I know of the racial climate in Taylor County, Georgia, you're making some very false ones.

And this was the gist of our discussion last year. What if the blacks want to have their own prom or party or club, invite their own band? Would they allow whites to be invited? I certainly would hope so, just as I would if it was the other way around. But still, segregation will always exist because the jocks will hang out with other jocks, the band geeks will hang out with other bad geeks, the snobby white kids will hang out with their peers, the Christians will hang out with other Christians, the outcasts will just want to be left alone. The problem comes in when you unilaterally exclude anyone because of generalization and "rules of society" in knowing your social status.

CamEdwards

05-01-2003, 05:01 PM

Skydog,

It becomes racist when the black students say "anybody's welcome to our prom" and the white students don't follow suit (or take the lead).

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Skydog,

It becomes racist when the black students say "anybody's welcome to our prom" and the white students don't follow suit (or take the lead). I hear ya Cam. I have a STRONG feeling, though, that what we're dealing with here is a case of minor (in their culture) insensitivity.

I also have to wonder if there is more to the story.

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 05:18 PM

Dola--After reading through that thread, I'm even MORE glad that the wigs aren't around any more.

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by detroit_fan
Is this not illegal? It is a private party, not sponsored by the government.

Samdari

05-01-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by SplitPersonality1
Could this be a thread in which we are all in agreement? (I hope so).

*Leaves to start an "I Like Boobies" thread*

JonInMiddleGA

05-01-2003, 05:24 PM

While I agree that this borders on the supremely stupid, my one argument might be that it's something that is unique.

Broadcasting HS football games each fall means I see more than my fair share of homecomings each year, and while it isn't always as blatant as the segregation in this case, there's a surprising number of schools where the homecoming royalty is composed of a black queen & a white queen. Over the past decade or so I seen that done openly, I've seen it renamed in some fashion to try to cover it up, but I'll see it at least about one of four Homecomings.

But here's the perhaps unexpected kicker -- the insistence on separate elections doesn't come from the white students or parents. In the situation I'm most familiar with, support for the separation comes strongly from black students & parents, in spite of the fact that the school is almost precisely 50-50 by race. The explanation, if you can get one at all, usually runs along the lines of "we've always had our queen & we intend to keep having our queen".

I know this is almost entirely anecdotal & proves diddly squat but I've scratched my head over this oddity for years now and it seemed at least remotely interesting regardless of relevance.

albionmoonlight

05-01-2003, 05:25 PM

2 Quick points--

1.) It is easy to pick on Georgia/the South. I think that racists exist everywhere and good open minded people exist everywhere. Let's not get too caught up in "I'm glad I don't live in the rural South, which is worse than where I live." Everywhere can be improved.

2.) I think that the hardest segregation to fight (and "fight" is even the wrong term because it is more subtle than that) is that which happens naturally. At Emory's (keeping the Georgia theme) primary dining hall when I went there, there was a black section and an non-black section. The black section was a completely unofficial couple of rows of tables where the people sitting there were almost always all black. Sometimes a white person would sit in the black section and sometimes a black person would sit in the other section, but by and large the segregation was there and it was obvious.

No one forced this on us. And there was not even negative pressure (I never saw or heard of anyone being made to feel weird for sitting in the wrong section) to keep it that way. People, all acting as individuals, simply made their choice to sit where they wanted, and segregation naturally occurred.

A few sub-points (since I have already broken my promise to present a couple of "quick points.")

First, based on my experience at Emory and what I have learned at various race/voting symposia at law school--the racial divide in this country seems to be increasingly moving to black/non-black instead of white/non-white (i.e. Asians, Hispanics, and other minorities are assimilating into white culture). Any thoughts or observations on that fact? Do others agree?

Second, I do not think that the government should be in the business of (to stretch the metaphor) telling people where to sit in the cafeteria. I do, however, hope that one day we will live in a country where people--all choosing freely--sit together of their own free will.

Buzzbee

05-01-2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Skydog,

It becomes racist when the black students say "anybody's welcome to our prom" and the white students don't follow suit (or take the lead).

Slight correction Cam. It's not a "black" prom.

"Juniors" are in charge of planning the prom each year and last year they decided to have just one dance — the first integrated prom in 31 years in the rural Georgia county 150 miles south of Atlanta."

Not disagreeing that the white students choosing to have their own isn't racist, but wanted to make sure the facts were straight.

And I have to agree with SkyDog that there may be some assumptions that just aren't true.

Around here there are a lot of churches that have predominantly, if not totally white congregations. Likewise there are churches that are mostly, if not all black. It isn't because the white Christians don't want to worship with the blacks or vice versa. It is because the styles of worship are different.

I think there MAY be some parallels to the prom. One area where blacks and whites, especially whites in the rural South, are different is in music and dance. This may be stereotypical, but I imagine whites in rural Georgia and elsewhere tend to prefer country music or rock and roll. I would also imagine that blacks in rural areas probably don't listen to country or rock and roll. Like I said, probably stereotypical, but I don't think it is too much of a strecth. As a result, two different proms MIGHT actually make sense.

Just wanting to play devil's advocate and present a different viewpoint.

JonInMiddleGA

05-01-2003, 05:28 PM

JonInMiddleGA

05-01-2003, 05:32 PM

Buzzbee -- the musical disparity was one of the reasons cited in some of the many articles about the Taylor County prom last year.

KWhit -- I know it's just a typo but in case anyone gets confused, that would be the Governor of Georgia, not the mayor.

And lest anyone make a mistake, the issue of the Georgia flag is far from over and isn't going to go away until it's put in the hands of the voters.

Anrhydeddu

05-01-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by John Galt
dola, it looks like by the time I was done searching and posting, everyone said everything I was going to and Skydog even tried search. Carry on.

See what happened when we carried on? Great, now you're going to get John back in a lather (not leather, Fritz).

Buzzbee

05-01-2003, 05:36 PM

To further illustrate points made by Jon and albion, while I was at Georgia Tech, a group of black students lobbied for, and eventually recieved funding for an "all-black" student newspaper, Onyx. The existing paper, The Technique wasn't racially segregated and didn't focus on "white" subjects. The black student population simply wanted a paper that focused on black issues (no pun intended) that was by black students. No racial motivation, just a cultural motivation.

Fritz

05-01-2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
See what happened when we carried on? Great, now you're going to get John back in a lather (not leather, Fritz).

mmmmm John in leather or lathered...

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Thanks for raising that point Dog, it's one that I think is extremely important to remember (and connects pretty well to my homecoming anecdote) No prob. Don't forget, while you and I may disagree 100% on the Georgia flag, I know we agree 100% on this: no yankee has any business pointing fingers and getting involved in our fight!!!

(A side note: I'll bet that lots of Iraqis feel the same way about the USA that a lot of Southern black folks feel about non-Southern interference in our affairs: "Thanks for helping us get out of an oppressive situation, but now get out of our business. We'll handle it from here.")

HornedFrog Purple

05-01-2003, 05:45 PM

Heh I am glad the backwater town I grew up in doesn't have a paper. Back in my boondocks there were 37 kids all black in my school period. There were two schools within reasonable distance one white and one black solely based on the rural communities around them.

I know from experience when you have generations of rural communites like that they tend to keep to their own. If this area in Georgia is anything like mine when I was a kid, this is a story blown out of proportion in my opinion.

JonInMiddleGA

05-01-2003, 05:45 PM

Eh, I think you're just country like that :)

At the risk of sounding as those we're talking in code about serious stuff, I think you've brought up another good point -- about not being able to fully understand a culture unless you've experienced it firsthand.

And IMO rural Taylor County has its own culture (or sub-culture if somebody prefers) just as Los Angeles has its own culture just as Tokyo has its own culture and so on.

And if (like the homecoming story) those of us who have spent our entire lives in that sub-culture occasionally scratch our heads at various customs, there's pretty good reason to believe that someone outside it can't quite fully grasp it either.

Fritz

05-01-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
No prob. Don't forget, while you and I may disagree 100% on the Georgia flag, I know we agree 100% on this: no yankee has any business pointing fingers and getting involved in our fight!!!

Skydog, do you think this issue should be open to all southerners? Do you think his should be open to everybody in Georgia?

My Virginia observation is that the more rural parts of the state are subjegated by the opinion of the urban areas, particuarly NoVa. The needs and values of "city folk" are often very different from the needs and values of "country folk." For this reason I like to see many issues left to the localities to work out.

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
Skydog, do you think this issue should be open to all southerners? Do you think his should be open to everybody in Georgia?

My Virginia observation is that the more rural parts of the state are subjegated by the opinion of the urban areas, particuarly NoVa. The needs and values of "city folk" are often very different from the needs and values of "country folk." For this reason I like to see many issues left to the localities to work out. Well, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek there of course (while there is an element of me believing EXACTLY what I posted there...) At any rate though, Jon, GrantDawg and I had this conversation the other night with regards to Georgia politics. There are definitely two Georgias: metro Atlanta, and the rest of the state. Most folks here in metro Atlanta would look at the segregated prom and two class presidents just like most folks in this thread are looking at it. (I'm originally from a smaller town in Georgia though, and am quite familiar with Taylor County High. They were one of only 5 schools in our SubRegion, so we played 'em a LOT!)

In Georgia, the tension between Atlanta and the rest of the state can be felt legislatively, but I don't get the sense that either side dominates the other. (The population of metro Atlanta is rougly equal to the population in the rest of the state.) Definitely there is a feeling of "those Atlanta folks can't tell us what to do" once you get about 40 miles from downtown in any direction.

Senator

05-01-2003, 05:55 PM

Black vs White
Jews vs Arabs
Pepsi vs Coke
Dallas vs Washington
Dell vs Gateway
Irish Catholics vs Irish Protestants

It seems somewhere in the DNA of humans a gene is ingrained to make an US vs THEM in just about every way possible. Education seems to help, but on the flip side some of the most educated people I have known are the biggest bigots you ever have seen.

I wish I knew the answer, I really do.

John Galt

05-01-2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
First, based on my experience at Emory and what I have learned at various race/voting symposia at law school--the racial divide in this country seems to be increasingly moving to black/non-black instead of white/non-white (i.e. Asians, Hispanics, and other minorities are assimilating into white culture). Any thoughts or observations on that fact? Do others agree?

I think your analysis may be very regional and mistake certain types of integration with complete integration. Here in NYC, for example, there is still a heavy degree of Asian (especially Chinese) separatism. This in large part probably due to language and the continued vitality of Chinatown. In other places, however, the Asian communities are integrated in social and living situations. Similarly, ethnic enclaves of Hispanics exist in many areas whereas they are heavily integrated in others.

Also, black Americans often experience housing and school segration to a greater degree than other minorities (and school segragation is due almost entirely to housting segregation). The long term result is often social segregation. This doesn't mean other minorities don't experience different problems that aren't visible from a simple social view (ie Asians experiencing the problems of being "model minorities" or Hispanics struggling with English as the primary language in the US). I'm not really disagreeing with what you have said - I just think there are different types of integration that need to be accounted for.

HornedFrog Purple

05-01-2003, 05:57 PM

Yeah but Cowboys vs. Redskins is WAR! :)

Fritz

05-01-2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Senator
Black vs White
Jews vs Arabs
Pepsi vs Coke
Dallas vs Washington
Dell vs Gateway
Irish Catholics vs Irish Protestants

spy vs spy

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
spy vs spy ROFLMBAO!!!

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by John Galt
I think your analysis may be very regional and mistake certain types of integration with complete integration. Here in NYC, for example, there is still a heavy degree of Asian (especially Chinese) separatism. This in large part probably due to language and the continued vitality of Chinatown. In other places, however, the Asian communities are integrated in social and living situations. Similarly, ethnic enclaves of Hispanics exist in many areas whereas they are heavily integrated in others.

Also, black Americans often experience housing and school segration to a greater degree than other minorities (and school segragation is due almost entirely to housting segregation). The long term result is often social segregation. This doesn't mean other minorities don't experience different problems that aren't visible from a simple social view (ie Asians experiencing the problems of being "model minorities" or Hispanics struggling with English as the primary language in the US). I'm not really disagreeing with what you have said - I just think there are different types of integration that need to be accounted for. I have to agree with John Galt for the most part here. While there are "assimilated" minorities of all kinds here in metro Atlanta, there are also a good number of non-black minorities who separate themselves.

Fritz

05-01-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
ROFLMBOA!!!

Roll On the Floor Like Marlon Brando On Acid?

JPhillips

05-01-2003, 06:13 PM

My problem, and the reason I posted this in the first place, is not that groups have a natural tendency to form groups. What bothers me is that one group is saying all are welcoem while the other group is saying F$#% You, we'll have our own and you can't come. That's wrong whether its coming from the whites or the blacks.

If the whites wanted to have a seperate party where all are welcome, that's one thing. That would speak to the kind of cultural differences, ie music, that have been discussed. When the white students say blacks can't come, that steps over the line into racism plain and simple.

Its sad to see a step toward some sort of reconciliation be turned back this year. A prom is only a small start, but it was a start. The parents that are allowing this, and funding it, should be ashamed.

John Galt

05-01-2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
See what happened when we carried on? Great, now you're going to get John back in a lather (not leather, Fritz).

I'll try not to disappoint. ;)

I want to offer a different view about racism than the one most people hear are using.

Racism in modern America is not about saying, "blacks are inferior" or "Hispanics are all in gangs." Sure, those things are said, but everyone knows those ideas are racist. Yet, when you survey people, no one stands up and says, "Yeah, I'm a racist." Even the neo-Nazis and KKK rarely call themselves racist. They try to spin their views as being racial pride. They even analogize themselves to Malcom X type separatists and argue that there is no difference.

Since no one is going to say, "I'm a racist," how do you know one when you see them? The answer is behavior. Racism isn't about intent these days - it is about what you do.

If you are hiring at a company and interview 100s of candidates and never hire a black candidate, you may be a racist. You can say that the whites or Asians were "better qualified," but you may also be using merit as a proxy for racism. When you decide to move your family to a "nicer" neighborhood with "better" schools, you might be a racist. You can argue that it is just "better," but you might also be running away from a diverse community because you fear it. When you see a couple black youths approaching you on the street late at night and fear for your life and property, you might be a racist. You can say that they were dressed like "gangsters" and looked "menacing," but what you may really mean is that blacks who dress in a fashion popular in black subculture are to be feared.

Racism is about using proxies to rationalize fear and hate.

When the white students at this school say they want their own prom because of the music, they might be a bunch of racists. They can say that their tastes are different and they would rather listen to something besides rap. See where that path leads over time? Races don't integrate, people don't get to know other cultures, and fear and hate continue.

This doesn't mean that if you hate rap or Sean John wear that you are a racist, but it then again, it could.

I'm a racist. I try hard everyday not to be, but I am. I make assumptions about minorities that I know are wrong. Someday, I hope I won't make as many assumptions. These kids in Georgia should do the same. Go to the prom together and listen to each other's music. Separatism is a bankrupt philosophy that should be pushed out of this high school (and pushed out of Augusta National as well ;) ).

Fritz

05-01-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by John Galt

no one is going to say, "I'm a racist,"

...

I'm a racist.

Therefore John is no one.

see, in a simple proof I have made John vanish, forever.

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 06:21 PM

JPhillips:

Consider this for a moment. Here you have a cultural situtation that allows for a white class president and a black class president, and for 30+ years allowed for a black prom and a white prom. If that is the place where people are living, it is a VERY small jump from there to an exclusionist prom. I just have some serious doubts that there are overtly evil intentions behind this.

John Galt

05-01-2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
Therefore John is no one.

see, in a simple proof I have made John vanish, forever.

:D That was the funniest Fritz-ism I've read. Maybe I just like it because it is about me, but it was very clever.

CamEdwards

05-01-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Senator
Black vs White
Jews vs Arabs
Pepsi vs Coke
Dallas vs Washington
Dell vs Gateway
Irish Catholics vs Irish Protestants

It seems somewhere in the DNA of humans a gene is ingrained to make an US vs THEM in just about every way possible. Education seems to help, but on the flip side some of the most educated people I have known are the biggest bigots you ever have seen.

I wish I knew the answer, I really do.

You forgot Senators vs. Representatives. :)

As far as what John Galt is saying, of course you "could" be a racist in those situations, but then again, you "could" be a sexist if you're a man and you only screw women. Or you "could" be an ageist because you don't like to hang out with 90-year-olds.

Or you "could" be intellectually superior because you vote Democrat, but again... not likely. :)

Fritz

05-01-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by John Galt
:D That was the funniest Fritz-ism I've read. Maybe I just like it because it is about me, but it was very clever.

hmmm must have been a flaw in the logic somewhere...

(thanks john. even a plecostomus does not always eat off the bottom)

John Galt

05-01-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by CamEdwards
As far as what John Galt is saying, of course you "could" be a racist in those situations, but then again, you "could" be a sexist if you're a man and you only screw women. Or you "could" be an ageist because you don't like to hang out with 90-year-olds.

Or you "could" be intellectually superior because you vote Democrat, but again... not likely. :)

I try to play with a Jeff Foxworthy joke and it gets used against me. Oh well.

When it comes to judging behavior, though, remember what they always say, "If it smells like a Fritz, and posts like a Fritz, then it is probably really Subby in disguise." ;)

JPhillips

05-01-2003, 06:27 PM

Skydog: I'm not necessarily saying there are evil intentions, although I think after having one inclusionary prom its hard to justify going back to an exclusive dance. My problem is that a chance to bring two groups of people together has been missed. A prom isn't going to solve all race problems/misundersatndings, but its a start. Missing this opportunity isn't something that should be viewed as anything but a failure.

I put a lot of the blame on the parents. Without money from mom and dad this couldn't happen. Of course I don't know these people personally, but I have a hard time believing that the motives behind this are pure.

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by John Galt
When it comes to judging behavior, though, remember what they always say, "If it smells like a Fritz, and posts like a Fritz, then it is probably really Subby in disguise." ;) We're rubbing off on John Galt. He actually made a joke on purpose. ;)

JonInMiddleGA

05-01-2003, 06:28 PM

Hey SD, do you remember off-hand how many grocery stores are in Taylor County?

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Hey SD, do you remember off-hand how many grocery stores are in Taylor County? No. Never bought groceries there. Why do you ask? Are there any?

I DO remember that there was only one fast-food place to eat when I was in high school--a Hardees.

Fritz

05-01-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by John Galt
I try to play with a Jeff Foxworthy joke and it gets used against me. Oh well.

When it comes to judging behavior, though, remember what they always say, "If it smells like a Fritz, and posts like a Fritz, then it is probably really Subby in disguise." ;)

You know John, Subby is crass like me but has politics and attitudes like you. A real lose/lose combination.

JonInMiddleGA

05-01-2003, 06:39 PM

Hey, that lone Hardee's describes a lot of the towns we played against in HS :)

The reason behind my grocery store question was something I see here every day -- largely segregated shopping, pretty apparently by choice.

We've got two groceries here, one significantly newer & larger than the other. The new/big one draws nearly all of the white customers, the older/smaller one draws nearly all of the black customers. The employee & management makeup of both is similar, I've never heard anyone of either race complain about any different treatment in either store.

As far as I've been able to tell, it's a case of segregated behavior by choice, not design or force. Both stores would love to have the shopping dollar of 100% of the population, but there are pretty benign factors at work which produce the end result. Things such as the black population being somewhat older than the white population, meaning that shopping habits are more ingrained & smaller stores with things in familiar locations are more user-friendly.

I guess my point here goes back to your comment about it being possible to read more into things than really exist sometimes.

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 07:02 PM

John,

Wow. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a decent-sized grocery store in Taylor County at all. Check out these numbers from the thread last year: This is a QUITE remote area. Taylor County High School is the only high school in the entire county, and there are only a little over 400 students in the school. As the article states, they have to travel 50 miles to get to Columbus (my home town--metro area has approx. 250,000 people), for the prom. The high school is located in the town of Butler (population 1,907) which is the county seat of Taylor County (total county population 8,815). Back when I was in high school, there was exactly ONE fast food place in Butler, a Hardee's. Believe me, this place is remote, VERY remote. It is one of those towns that pretty much completely shuts down when the high school has a football or basketball game.

tucker342

05-01-2003, 07:04 PM

that's sad:(

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?!?!

GrantDawg

05-01-2003, 08:28 PM

I have no comment as long as Chief Rum doesn't. :)

Ben E Lou

05-01-2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I have no comment as long as Chief Rum doesn't. :) He'll get on in the middle of the night and have SOMETHING to say, no doubt. Just don't get him into small-novel mode. ;)

CamEdwards

05-01-2003, 08:31 PM

As funny as JohnGalt's last post was (and it was a good one John... I'm proud of you!), Fritz always finds a way to end up on top.

Which is odd, considering that his "daddy" told me Fritz is really a bottom.

Anrhydeddu

05-01-2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by JPhillips
My problem, and the reason I posted this in the first place, is not that groups have a natural tendency to form groups. What bothers me is that one group is saying all are welcoem while the other group is saying F$#% You, we'll have our own and you can't come. That's wrong whether its coming from the whites or the blacks.

If the whites wanted to have a seperate party where all are welcome, that's one thing. That would speak to the kind of cultural differences, ie music, that have been discussed. When the white students say blacks can't come, that steps over the line into racism plain and simple.

Its sad to see a step toward some sort of reconciliation be turned back this year. A prom is only a small start, but it was a start. The parents that are allowing this, and funding it, should be ashamed.

I agree with everything said here.

John Galt: In your lengthy lathered speech, you used only examples of anti-black "racism". Why is that? Is that all you see or know about or care to use? What if you substituted the assumed "white" with black and the black with an Asian (or Hispanic). Would your examples still be true?

I beg to differ on your definition of "racism". Racism is about a belief in the superiority of a particular race; anatagonism toward other races as a result of this belief; and the theory that human abilities are determined by race (source: Oxford Dictionary, 1996). What you are describing is something else (prejudice? bigotry? I don't know) but it is not racism if it is not in the context of superiority/inferiority.

There are differences in cultures that can be defined by race, just as they are by geography and economics. But in no way should that imply that one is better than another. We can celebrate those differences among culture and among heritage (through clothing, music, worship service, food, dance, etc.) but it seems being different (or uniqueness) is now being deemed as racist, esp. if we prefer one difference over another.

Chief Rum

05-01-2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I have no comment as long as Chief Rum doesn't. :)

lol, yeah, I was trying to remember if this was the issue we butted heads on. :)

I'm not going to make any big statements or nothing. Most of what I would say has already been said.

The only things I would say is that, if anyone defending the actions of the Taylor County segregation thinks the point of those thinking otherwise is that this is evil racism at its clearest, I would definitely say, for me at least, that it's not as clear.

I think it's very subjective and subtle. It is racism. There's no doubt about it in my mind. But it is also culture. And it is apparently a very voluntary behavior in Taylor County, for all sides.

I don't think that calling it anything other than racism makes it right. But I am hard pressed to find a way for them to do it differently. I agree with John or JPhillips (whoever it was) that it starts with the parents. But they are only acting out what they learned from their parents. And the grandparents what they learned from their parents.

It's an endless cycle until someone chooses to be different. And in that respect I do think that the return of a segregated prom is essentially a step back after the progress that was made last year. It calls into question that there was any progress at all. And it calls into question whether or not this particular culture will ever really change. And that's kinda sad to me.

I agree 100% with John Galt (did I say that?) about the general existence of subtle racism. It may not be as overt or culturally accepted as it is in Taylor County, but it does still exist.

I'll even join John Galt and say that I am a racist, too. Not by choice, but by reflex. And I have to fight it every day. When I get on a bus to go to work and I just want to relax and prepare for the rest of the day, I do get tremendously annoyed when a Latina mom sits down across the way with her four noisy kids, all chattering away. Yeah, there's real reason for annoyance (the unnecessary noise factor), but I can't say my mind always says "damn loud kids." Sometimes my mind says "damn loud Mexican kids" and "why are there always so many Mexican kids?". I tell myself not to do it--I berate myself strongly. But the thought will often come unbidden.

Same thing when I see a shaved head Mexican with tats all over his arms, or a black youth with dreads. Some corner of my mind gets me watchful, like I'm suddenly going to get jumped by a gang. It's phenomenally stupid and it's not at all conscious most of the time. But it does happen. And like John said he does, I try hard every day to work to improve that.

Now consider living in an area where thoughts like that not only come around often, but perhaps they are accepted a bit socially? I think that might be the way it is in Taylor County, and I can't imagine how incredibly difficult it must be to overcome that (when it can be so hard myself, living in a more racially-integrated culture in California).

Okay, I guess I did have a lot to say. :)

Chief Rum

KWhit

05-01-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
KWhit -- I know it's just a typo but in case anyone gets confused, that would be the Governor of Georgia, not the mayor.

Yes, that is correct. I was typing without thinking again.

Thanks.

Ben E Lou

05-02-2003, 03:53 AM

Originally posted by Chief Rum
The only things I would say is that, if anyone defending the actions of the Taylor County segregation thinks the point of those thinking otherwise is that this is evil racism at its clearest, I would definitely say, for me at least, that it's not as clear.I hope you don't hear me as one defending the actions. I agree 100% that this is a step backward (although I'll bet ya dollars to doughnuts that it will lead to three steps forward soon). What bothered me is that I sensed a lot of finger-pointing and I did get the vibe from some "that this is evil racism at its clearest." Having had some interaction with Taylor County folks (both black and white), and just don't see them being that malicious. Behind-the-times certainly, but not malicious.

(Speaking of grammar, what is the proper way to include that final sentence fragment of my post? Should I have put a dash on what is now the penulatimate sentence, or is the final phrase an "acceptable fragment?")

sterlingice

05-02-2003, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
(Speaking of grammar, what is the proper way to include that final sentence fragment of my post? Should I have put a dash on what is now the penulatimate sentence, or is the final phrase an "acceptable fragment?")

If you can accept the advice of a person about to use the word "sentenced" improperly, I'll field that one. No, that fragment doesn't work and it needs to be "sentenced": They might be behind-the-times certainly, but not malicious.

SI

Ben E Lou

05-02-2003, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by sterlingice
If you can accept the advice of a person about to use the word "sentenced" improperly, I'll field that one. No, that fragment doesn't work and it needs to be "sentenced": They might be behind-the-times certainly, but not malicious.

SI Hmmmm.....I agree that way is "correct," but I feel like the statement loses some "oomph" that way. No biggie though.

sterlingice

05-02-2003, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
Hmmmm.....I agree that way is "correct," but I feel like the statement loses some "oomph" that way. No biggie though.

Nah, you're right. It *does* alter the connotation. I'm usually pretty good at this stuff but I really shouldn't be trying to do grammar at 4 am. I'm a Comp Sci major for chrissakes. Grammar is supposed to be heavy listing for us (tho, it's nice to have the edge on classmates).

SI

GrantDawg

05-02-2003, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Same thing when I see a shaved head Mexican with tats all over his arms, or a black youth with dreads. Some corner of my mind gets me watchful, like I'm suddenly going to get jumped by a gang. It's phenomenally stupid and it's not at all conscious most of the time. But it does happen. And like John said he does, I try hard every day to work to improve that.

Chief Rum

So when I do that to white teenagers, am I still being racist? I see a group of teenagers dressed in certain ways, I don't care if they are blue, green, purple or otherwise, I watch them carefully. And with reason, as I was once one of those youths. Race has much less to do with it than what they are doing.

scooper

05-02-2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by Samdari
*Leaves to start an "I Like Boobies" thread*

I can't find this thread :(

QuikSand

05-02-2003, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
(Speaking of grammar, what is the proper way to include that final sentence fragment of my post? Should I have put a dash on what is now the penulatimate sentence, or is the final phrase an "acceptable fragment?")

I, for one, think it's fine. In my view, once you have established that you have proper command of the language, and are able to properly construct sentences and paragraphs - then you get some license. In this case, I think it is an acceptable fragment - because in context, the remainder of the sentence of clearly implied, but excluded for effect (or "oomph"). Passes my test.