Kirby Puckett

[QuikSand]

I'm feeling left out.

I keep seeing these threads on the FOFC board, that grow and grow and grow. They go into page after page of "discussion" and "debate," but on the occasions when I look at them, I can't find anything I really want to participate in. I like participating in this community, I really do, but I'm starting to feel like I'm just missing out on all the "fun" going on around here.

I'm wondering if there's any chance that there might be a thread than can build up some life which doesn't focus on forum moderation, religious moralism, international affairs, or whatever bug crawled up someone's butt this morning.

I realize that most of the threads containing this kind of tripe are labeled appropriately (or at least obviously), and I am able to just avoid clicking them and therefore can avoid seeing them. That's generally what I do. So, no, I'm not calling for any intervention or administrator action. I don't want a separate forum for bullshit.

I'm just interested in knowing whether this is just how it's going to be around here... or if perhaps this might just be a passing phase. I can probably live with either one, I suppose.

Some time ago, we had a discussion about possible phrases that might be used around here as an all-purpose "I don't care about this bullshit" reply. Some folks have warmed up to using words like "asshat" and "colossal squid" and even the eponymous "Kirby Puckett" for this purpose. I applaud this effort... and wonder if the silent forces of "no more bullshit" might still have some fight left in them after all.

I'm starting this in an attempt to see if there's anyone else feeling the same way.

[Easy Mac]

asshat

[CamEdwards]

I think there's a great deal of bullshitting going on lately.... but anything's better than half the freaking forum devoted to Hattrick topics.

[Easy Mac]

I think its more the fact that there hasn't been a new sports sim in a while that has really made people go "wow!" so there is little to talk about other than bullshit. The games have become too repetitive... you can only improve so much after 4-5-6 games.

Generally, there just isn't anything relevant to talk about, so we have to find random, meaningless crap to latch onto to give this place anything to talk about.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Generally, there just isn't anything relevant to talk about, so we have to find random, meaningless crap to latch onto to give this place anything to talk about.

We have to?

There have been some pretty long periods of this board between FOF releases, and without much on-topic stuff to discuss. I'm really not lamenting the fact that we wander off topic and onto "random, meaningless crap" - that's not the kind of "bullshit" I'm talking about. I'm trying to be more specific than that - I'm frustrated more with all the bluster and empty debates about rules, banning, QotM, and so forth.

[AgPete]

I have yet to read more than three replies in a thread about quote of the moment, banned people, soap operas and so forth. I don't really have any problems with the political debates and other stuff you mentioned. No football season, no new sims and even most of the newest sims are sequels rather than new games, so I really don't know what else people are going to talk about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear Quik, but you asked a good question that deserves some thought, so I'll offer mine, strictly FWIW.

I think you're just seeing a reflection of the state of the nation so to speak. Yes, I know the forum is international but I don't think anyone would argue that there's predominately U.S. posters here. And so where the U.S. is will probably going to be reflected here pretty strongly.

I believe we're as clearly divided as we've been in the past century on a variety of issues and, for lack of a better phrase, battle lines are drawn. Those divisions then spill over into whatever topic is at hand, if they happen to be contentious topics then it's even easier to have those divisions on display. Which is how this relates to what I think you're talking about -- I think you're seeing a shift in topics that reflects the willingness or even eagerness of both political sides to battle it out and they actually want an opportunity to do so.

[QuikSand]

Interesting perspective, Jon.

And the more I think about it... the more I wish I had clearly separated my comments about intra-forum stuff (banning, QotM, etc) and extra-forum stuff (politics, war, moralism, etc) - because they are really two different things.

In fact - while I have mostly decided to just stay out of the political stuff around here, that's not really what I wanted to focus on here. I'm really thinking more about all the forum squabbling going on - and wondering whether this forum is on its way to becoming a forum to discuss the forum. (Ugh)

[Bee]

I think the makeup of the board is changing. It's becoming more of a place to debate instead of a place to discuss.

I think that is a natural progression for most message boards I've been around. Originally, boards are started to discuss a subject that everyone basically agrees on (We liked FOF). Over time, people start bringing up new subjects (other text sims for example) that generates discussion. Generally, most posters approach these subjects with an open mind and disagreements are usually mild. But then as you start running out of similar subjects, posters start bringing up subjects further from the original purpose of the board (religion, politics, etc). As you get further from the original subject, views begin to diverge, opinions become "stronger" and everyone who agreed on the original subject start debating instead of discussing. That will generally lead to groups developing and lots of sniping. After that the board will usually split apart.

Of course, our board has a slightly different dynamic because every year there are new text sims (or new versions) that pull us back to the original purpose of the board and generally takes us back to "discussions" instead of "debates". I think the issue for this board now is that we have become so diverse that there are many people who would rather debate politics, religion, etc than discuss FOF, CM, OOTP, etc. There's nothing wrong with that, but the board is changing. Of course, that's JMO.

[albionmoonlight]

I agree with you, QS. And I think others do, too. Someone tried to start a football thread a few days ago specifically because we had not talked about football in a while.

I think that there was just an unfortunate convergence of circumstance. QOTM discussions came up at about the same time that HM got banned at the same time that there was nothing new about which to talk in the FOF world.

I think that things will get back to "normal" (whatever that is) soon.

I do not think that the lack of sports-sim news contributes to the problem. Hattrick became a really big thing, and lots of people started talking about it. There seemed to be a quick division between Hattrick lovers and haters, however. It did not really, imo, add to the board flavor in the way that FOF discussion does.

I don't want anyone to think that I am being snobby or elitist. The board is what it is.

Of course, a cynic would point out that getting into a meta-discussion on the board about how there are too many meta-discussions on the board is kind of a weird place to be, anyway. I think I'll shut up now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Quik - I gotcha now and it may well have been me that over-emphasized one aspect instead of you.

Considering the forum squabbles specifically, I'd say that's a function of a couple of things.

1) Familiarity breeds contempt. I don't think that can be underestimated.

2) At any given moment, I think nearly every 'net environment of any size has some percentage of participants that bitch about the mgmt of the site. All kinds of pyschological stuff could set that up but whatever the reason, I sort of believe it's up there with death & taxes on the inevitability scale.

Consider #2 in the context of #1 and I think you've accounted for a lot the quantity and tone of the threads you're talking about. Add in #3 - the lack of much else to talk about that's "on-topic" and you get ... well, you get the past couple of weeks at FOFC.

[Fritz]

some people are too silly

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
some people are too silly

I guess that's me.

[oykib]

Well... a perfect example of the kind of useless contentiousness is my thread "A topic about something..." that I put up in response to reading this thread. I think it went two posts before someone posted something that was contentiously off-topic.

[Marmel]

Kickstand, I thought about starting a topic like this last night before bed, but I looked at the frist page, and the only topic that was related to 'a forum discussing the forum' was the 'go to hell Sky....' thread. I figured that wasn't too bad considering how this place was just a couple of days ago.

Hopefully, it is just a passing phase.

[Fritz]

Quik,

this is the way a snapshot of my front page breaks down:

goofy 6
other game 2
sports news 3
life question 4
other 4
forum/poll game 5
product q 2
sports talk 3
flame/forum mod bitch 2
grammer talk 2
fof talk 1
talk about talk 1
news news 2

[Anrhydeddu]

Diversity is the spice of life, eh Fritz?

Imagine my shock when I came in this morning, eating my pears and apricots, and seeing the "hell" thread. It does seem like everyday this week there is something that grows out of an emotional issue and some of us are compelled to keep feeding it. But as much as I ridiculed JGalt's desire for FOFC Utopia, there is the need to see that when things get too wrapped up the other way. This is a phase, I believe, but if you compare this forum to many others out there, we are very tame and polite.

[Barkeep49]

Fritz:

Good analysis except I also thought these "count the topic" things were misleading. It doesn't take into account topic longevity, that is how long the topic sticks around on the first page. Seeing a topic time and time again has, I think, a disproprioniate amount of psychological weight on a person and makes it feel more like the board is about that.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Barkeep49
Fritz:

Good analysis except I also thought these "count the topic" things were misleading. It doesn't take into account topic longevity, that is how long the topic sticks around on the first page. Seeing a topic time and time again has, I think, a disproprioniate amount of psychological weight on a person and makes it feel more like the board is about that.

How can I mislead you when i wasn't leading you anywhere? Where were you led?

[Butter]

I thought Kickstand was trying to "Kirby Puckett" the entire forum.

But then, I'm an idiot.

[ctmason]

I've been with the forum a long time, and I try to avoid being nostalgic about it.

I personally think the forum had degraded from what it was, but I could be totally wrong. My reasoning.

1) When that Fantasy Baseball League opened up a forum, I don't know if many of our contributors have come back.

2) In my opinion, people trolling or fighting isn't the problem, we've always had that, always will.

3) We don't have a different FOF product, if Jim had utilized a different sport, it might have seen a revitalization. Not blaming Jim, of course.

4) Just a natural progression for most any message board or newsgroup I've read. Things tend to deteriorate, and it's VERY rare that a message board lasts for years and years and years.

Now my personal reasons for why I think my views are skewed.

1) I'm getting older. As free time grows short for me and I become more and more busy, I find arguing on a forum, or even participating in discussions to be less and less appealing.

2) I can't even remember the last time I played a computer or console game, FOF included, I simply don't have the time or desire.

3) Related to the first point, I watch about 30 minutes to an hour of TV every week, and that's mostly ESPNEWS. I really am bad about keeping up with what's going on in the world, so I find I not only don't know who someone is talking about, I also have little of interest to contribute. I find this not only in the forum but in everday life.

Still enjoy reading and participating when I can, I think these things go in cycles, honestly.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Fritz
How can I mislead you when i wasn't leading you anywhere? Where were you led?

I was led to the Kool Aid, but I didn't drink.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
I thought Kickstand was trying to "Kirby Puckett" the entire forum.

You're really not far off. It started with the right sentiment - and maybe that's really all I should have said: "I'm feeling left out."

I thought about starting some sort of "petition" (which seems to be the rage around here) pledging that I wouldn't descend into namecalling and forum squabble tomfoolery. But I decided against it... maybe that would have been a better thing to do.

I dunno, I suppose than when all these things happen on a forum (or anywhere), it's just a pendulum effect.. these things go back and forth, and every time it gets to one extreme, someone cries out that the sky is falling. In this case, I guess it's me that's overreacting. Worse things have happened.

[Daimyo]

The forum goes in cycles and maybe right now we're on a bit of a downward swing. I think things might pick up with Horns gone (I know the forum to me seemed at a high point those two weeks or so he was away).

Perhaps we need some sort of voluntary gentlemen's agreement to avoid petty arguments like the QotM moderation? Of course it wouldn't be binding, but maybe it could help to bolster the willpower of those who want to avoid those things, but always end up drawn in (of which I am definately guilty).

EDIT: I guess that is the same idea as your "petition." I must have been posting when you posted that.

[John Galt]

I've been an active member in many of the debates/discussions here about politics. Lately, I've found myself embroiled in the rules of the forum type threads because of my role as the QotM moderator. Both of those thread types can turn ugly, but the 2nd group seems to be particularly nasty because the only "substance" to the discussion necessarily involves personal attacks (of which I've felt many). I agree that when they are going on, the board leaves a "bad taste" in my mouth for a while.

My theory about why this is all happening now relates to things people here have said. I think there are so many people on this board because it is a "good" board and not because they have any connection to FOF. I think this eliminates a notion of commonality among all of us in having found a neat little place on the web brought about by a game. Now, there is community that lacks a sense of community. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does tend eliminate certain common frames of reference that tend to keep debates polite and orderly.

QS, I also think the desire you (and many others) have to stay clear of certain threads hurts this board in some ways. There are many respected and "quality" posters who don't visit the threads that are in need of the most "help." After I posted my "FOFC Utopia" thread, I realized I had not been doing enough to make things better. I threw stones at the way things were, but didn't push them in a new direction. Since then I've become a much more active poster in all sorts of threads and I feel better about the direction things have gone (although others might not agree). Ultimately, we determine the "culture" of the board and when some of the core members shy away from certain threads, the board as a whole suffers. I'm not trying to make this a personal attack or even give advice to someone who is much more important to this place than me, but I thought my experience could at least help.

[QuikSand]

My sense is that when one of the so-called "respected posters" joins the fray of one of these petty squabbles, all it does is start up the usual fires of "oh, here are the big hitters, trying to tell everyone else what to think" and "this place is so elitist." (Again, I am probably overreacting, and being inappropriately thin-skinned.. but when this kind of crap happens to me, it reinforces my belief that I'm generally doing the right thing by staying out of it all) I'm really sick of that little argument - but I suppose it's had its intended effect - it got me (for one) to just shut the hell up.

[Fritz]

quik, wtf got in your craw today?

[ice4277]

I've only started posting on this board a good deal in the last couple months, but I've been around in one form or another (mostly as a lurker) since the end of the Sideline days and the move here, but for the most part as an outsider. Here are a few thoughts and comparisons I can make:

This board is much less elitist and intimidating than it was in the early days; I think newbies find it a lot easier to post now, and we are seeing that in the increasing number of members who visit this forum. This could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective and how long you've been around. I think its been a good thing because its always nice to bring fresh new views into the mix, but it also can bring about a drop in the quality of how things were in the past.

Many posters on this board have always had a stubborn, righteous, 'my way or the highway' type attitude. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it has often led to some very good, well-reasoned debates, but it also can lead to debacles when certain issues are discussed. The QotM debate is a good example; something as relatively meaningless as a moderation of the quotes resulted in about a ten page thread of people arguing back and forth about the choices made with regards to this. This board has also had its share of stupid people (no need to name them) and it just so happens we had a convergence of some of these events at the same time recently, which I think made it seem worse around here.

I think for the most part, things are still doing ok around here. Nobody is going to be happy by everything they see (those Hattrick threads peppering the main forum were some of the most annoying things ever, I'm glad the mods opened a new forum for them). There are some things that I don't like (some of the polls are just incredibly assinine and serve no purpose whatsover) but you have to take the good with the bad so they're no big deal. I think the ability of this board to thrive with more members than ever, considering there is essentially nothing to talk about regarding FOF itself, is a testament to the quality of the content that is found here. Hell, I haven't even thought about playing an FOF game since the first month FOF 3 came out, but I still come back here multiple times during the day because I love what I find here.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Fritz
quik, wtf got in your craw today?

Appears to be the mailman.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by QuikSand
My sense is that when one of the so-called "respected posters" joins the fray of one of these petty squabbles, all it does is start up the usual fires of "oh, here are the big hitters, trying to tell everyone else what to think" and "this place is so elitist." (Again, I am probably overreacting, and being inappropriately thin-skinned.. but when this kind of crap happens to me, it reinforces my belief that I'm generally doing the right thing by staying out of it all) I'm really sick of that little argument - but I suppose it's had its intended effect - it got me (for one) to just shut the hell up.

It's funny - I never really notice the cries of FOFC elitism because they aren't directed at me (I get a different strain of elitism attacks). I think we tend to pick up what affects us the most here - I tended to notice the "gay" comments more than most.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Bee
Appears to be the mailman.

Thanks. Now I have to dry off my keyboard.

[vtbub]

While I think that the board gets cranky once in awhile, I believe that it is just in a down cycle.

I thnk that we take bigger risks because, nobody knows who we really are. It's harder to give a bold opinion or to troll when people can look you in the eye.

I really don't like flame fests and I can't stand trolling. Now that Horns is gone, hopefully we can get back to debating sports and not quotes or feeding the trolls.

I also think that quite a few of us have spun off into leagues or other things that we communicate there as well as here. I also think it was a mistake in hindsight to move the hattrick stuff to a seperate forum. This board long ago stopped being about Front Office Football and started being THE place to get info on sims in general. Because somebody throws a tempertantrum and can't get their own way, should not mean that the rest of us get sucked in.

Finally, I hope that couriers and Tarkus come back. I think that they bated themselves with their strong opinions, but they still provided a valueable service to the community.

Just my .02.

[scooper]

Originally posted by John Galt
I tended to notice the "gay" comments more than most.

Hmmmmm. So who's your mailman?

Sorry, couldn't resist that one. But while I'm hear, I'll make a comment.

John, I've never conversed or argued with you here but I've read many of your posts. I've disagreed with 88.423% of your views on these boards. But you are a good example of arguing your views without personal attacks or taking disagreement personally. For that reason, while I don't like many of your arguments, I respect them and will not glance over your posts.

Good form, John. Good form.

[Easy Mac]

I think people cry elitism, b/c sometimes there really is elitism. Look back at the asenine "Skydog/Ryan hell" thread, and look at the first few replies. There is an elitist, "you had poor structure and 4 posts, who gives a fuck." To me that screams of elitism.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I think people cry elitism, b/c sometimes there really is elitism. Look back at the asenine "Skydog/Ryan hell" thread, and look at the first few replies. There is an elitist, "you had poor structure and 4 posts, who gives a fuck." To me that screams of elitism.

The structure had more to do with the readability of the post. As for the four posts, you could be right. Or the 4 post comment could have indicated suspicion as to the real identity of the poster.

[albionmoonlight]

When I see "bad" threads, I tend to avoid them instead of trying to change them. Kudos to John Galt for trying to improve what he perceives as bad threads. I just think that it is a more efficient use of my energy to move than to change.

If this board stops being a fun place to visit, I will just go quietly into that good night and will not rage against the dying of the light. I won't even make a concious decision to leave; I'll just stop wanting to be here.

Also, what some people find fun, others find annoying. I dislike inside jokes, even when I understand them, because they tend to exclude others. A lot of people like inside jokes because it gives the place a feeling of community. Questions of style tend not to be right or wrong, but if a forum tends too much toward any one style, the danger is that people who are not into that style will leave, increasing the concentration of that style on the board.

Things are on a downswing, but I think that they will improve.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
quik, wtf got in your craw today?

Apparently this Brutus guy did... he and the hundred-and-some responses he garnered.

I guess I'm just not in a good mood today... I've been wise to delete most of the things I had prepared to post today before I hit the "send" button.

[Bee]

Originally posted by scooper

Good form, John. Good form.

Are you hitting on John?

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Bee
Are you hitting on John?

Don't worry Bee - you will always be my first love (or at least top 5).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Easy Mac -- but where exactly do you draw the line between elitism and having enhanced interest/respect in the views of people you've known to be of quality?

Although I didn't play in that particular thread (which means I'm technically not a part of the "elitism" crowd there), it's common enough for me to be accused of "elitism" that I think I can see that side pretty well.

Try this, see what you think --

Elitism would be if I assigned value to posters on a scale like this:
1) Veteran posters
2) Semi-regulars
3) newbies

when what I actually use is more like
1) Veteran posters with a clue (or more)
2) Semi-regulars with a clue (or more)
3) Newbies who show potential of having a clue (or more)
4) People w/out a clue, sub-categorized in descending experience order

Whatever that is, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that's been bandied about in this topic.

Make sense?

[scooper]

Originally posted by Bee
Are you hitting on John?

Nah. I could never date a liberal. :D

[Bee]

Originally posted by John Galt
Don't worry Bee - you will always be my first love (or at least top 5).

ok...I was worried there for a minute. ;)

[Subby]

Originally posted by John Galt
It's funny - I never really notice the cries of FOFC elitism because they aren't directed at me (I get a different strain of elitism attacks). I think we tend to pick up what affects us the most here - I tended to notice the "gay" comments more than most. That is so gay.

[Anrhydeddu]

With all of the cries against elitism, I guess it wouldn't be a good time to suggest more puzzles and WDYK? :(

[Barkeep49]

Originally posted by Subby
That is so gay.

I thought it was rather Chunky (http://www.geocities.com/stripmalldesign/theaters/chunky/chunky_one.html) myself.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Barkeep49
I thought it was rather Chunky (http://www.geocities.com/stripmalldesign/theaters/chunky/chunky_one.html) myself. That is so gay and chunky.

[bbor]

I think once in awhile we need a good shit strorm in here...it is like any other family that goes through ups and downs?

How many of us hated our Freinds,siblings,parents and got into a big row with them once in awhile only to find after it was over things were better than before?

[Schmidty]

I think the real problem is that this board is primarily made up of a bunch of drama queens who feel the need to make every single issue, minute or not, into an end-all debate. Too many thin-skinned people around here.

As I, and others, have said in the past: This board is what you make.

(edited for meanness)

[WSUCougar]

Personally, I find that the "elitism" claims ring false in most cases. More often than not they are knee-jerk responses by defensive individuals who need a handy-dandy excuse as to why their shit ain't flyin'. In Brutus' case, he was repeatedly pressing that button and missing the whole point.

It's not that with a mere 4 posts you are automatically treated with disdain - it's that with a mere 4 posts no one has a barometer of who you are. There is no familiarity. You are a stranger walking into a community and blurting out harsh criticisms. My default response is "Pardon me, but who the hell are you?" The contrast is made even more distinctive when the message uses poor grammar, spelling, and formatting. Now you come across like a blithering idiot of a stranger. Does that make me "elitist" for thinking that?

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Schmidty
I think the real problem is that this board is primarily made up of a bunch of drama queens who feel the need to make every single issue, minute or not, into an end-all debate. Too many thin-skinned


I think primarily is definitely an exaggeration. I think it's a vocal minority of drama-types who monopolize the front page with their issues. Most people look past ridiculous posts or threads and move on to the next one.

[Franklinnoble]

I don't get it, Kickstand... the "pronunciation" thread you started yesterday was probably the most fun I've had on here since, umm, Wednesday, or something.

Didn't that provide a ray of hope for you? You sound depressed... despondent... or perhaps just constipated. Can I pour you a glass of Metamucil?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Can I pour you a glass of Metamucil?

Halve it with bourbon, please.

[revrew]

Y'know, Kick, I find that if I hop back and forth between the Dynasty Threads and the General Discussion, one of the two has something to interest me. If not, I snooze down for a day or two, log back in, and lo and behold, here's some good stuff. The Dynasty Forum is just too rich to give up on the rest of the board...

X-com, ZFL, Bill Gates, FOFC Racing -- These hold enough interest to keep me biding my time until something quality pops up on general discussion.

They way I figure, if there's one interesting thread on General Discussion per week, I'm happy. Pronunciation got the honors this week; I wonder what we'll talk about next week?