So.. I have been working on a football simulation

[ShaneTheMaster]

I'm not using the word 'game' here, because I think the more accurate word is 'simulation'. I've been working on it little by little for the last several months, and wanted to put a feeler out there.

What I'm creating is a football simulation WITH graphics - something that does not really exist right now. But this thing is not a game. It would be realistic in every conceivable way. If a fat defensive tackle picks up a fumble and runs 80 yards, he will get tired, gasping for breath, and slowing down drastically, maybe even falling down towards the end. Players can trip and fall, Two receivers can have the same speed, but one might be able to accelerate faster, and one just may run the wrong route on a play, because he hasn't fully learned the playbook. You may have a star who doesn't like to stay in shape, so he slowly deteriorates physically.

I've already completed the player generation and scouting. Players are rated 0-119 in each attribute, divided into 3 categories: Football skills, Physical Skills, and mental/behavior attributes - but you only see a broader summary value of each - (0-11). Ratings are seen through scouts, who also have a scouting error - see screenshot below to see examples of ratings and how the scale works.

I'm working on this thing piece by piece, 1 football fundamental at a time. If the players can't accelerate and decelerate properly when they run, nothing else matters. I've got that down. I'm working on kicking right now. Next would be throwing. Then after that blocking, etc.

My question to you: Would the graphics below suffice? And would a simulation with simple art and simple animation be good for you? And would it be something you would buy?


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e281/Buhbooh/FootballUniverse/depth_chart.png

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e281/Buhbooh/FootballUniverse/kickoff_zpsa4c9cc60.png

[Abe Sargent]

Awesome!


I'd personally be fine with that graphics 2D engine, if the stats behind it work.

[GoldenEagle]

Is that Java?

I will be honest. If you we're going to turn this into a commercial venture, then the graphics would have to improve.

[BYU 14]

Nice, I am with Abe, if the sim engine is functional and the graphics match the play, all is good.

And if you do College, I would buy 2 :)

[Eaglesfan27]

If the sim engine was solid and it becomes a game (roster management over the length of a career, etc,) I would buy it in a minute. If it is just a simulator without career management of a roster, then I would pass.

[ShaneTheMaster]

If the sim engine was solid and it becomes a game (roster management over the length of a career, etc,) I would buy it in a minute. If it is just a simulator without career management of a roster, then I would pass.

Guess I didn't make that clear :)

It will have everything we all come to expect a modern football game to have in terms of roster management and multi-year management, college drafts, etc. I have actually already written the player progression logic.

They will have rookies that all but the very best scouts will overlook (i.e. hidden gems). They will have college players that are just plain studs coming out of college, but have no work ethic, or just don't have the football IQ (see screenshot above for this rating) to succeed at the next level (i.e. busts).

[Eaglesfan27]

Awesome. I thought that is what you were talking about but wanted to clarify. Look forward to seeing how this progresses. Graphics are fine for my taste.

[PurdueBrad]

I would definitely be fine with everything you've shown. One quick idea, for the screen of player talents, since you are using green for one of the talent levels go with a different color background (if possible and not too much work). But you would definitely have a buyer here.

[ShaneTheMaster]

I would definitely be fine with everything you've shown. One quick idea, for the screen of player talents, since you are using green for one of the talent levels go with a different color background (if possible and not too much work). But you would definitely have a buyer here.

Yea, that ratings screen is just a mock-up screen that I used for integration testing of the player generation algorithm, so it will definitely be tightened up and improved, and is by no means the final layout. The only thing about that screen that I would say is definite is the icons used for showing the ratings 0-11.

[TroyF]

Those graphics are fine for my tastes as well. I remember xor nfl challenge. I could play that game for hours on end. I don't need fancy graphics. I would buy this in a second or as long as it took to type in my cc information.

[yeah826]

This is nice if you have a demo you are willing to show this sounds like a good game to buy.

[MJ4H]

please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real please be real

[spleen1015]

I would buy what you say you are building.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Very exciting. I'm sure most here are salivating at the possibility. Would love to see a 2D model built into a career mode game.

[Matthean]

The green needs to be toned down. The circles around the stats make me want to punch something. It's way too much of a strain on the eyes.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Glad to see that there would at least be some interest.

About the ratings screen,as I've said, it is just a quick mock-up I did for testing of player generation, and it is definitely gonna be cleaned up and refined.

Currently working on the animation for when a ball is kicked off, if I can figure out how to post a video, I will post that when I'm done.

[cubboyroy1826]

I like what I see so far. I do not need fancy graphics and would definitely be interested in buying this.

[Apathetic Lurker]

O'd buy it, but to be honest i'd be a lot happier with two differently colored circles than the top down view of helmet and pads used now...For some reason its ...disconcerting

Maybe even just the helmets but no pads would work for me.

[Flasch186]

Im in. I actually think you could go one way or the other with the graphics to suffice. Take it down to circles with numbers perhaps their name below their circle or whatever or make them better.

[BYU 14]

I remember xor nfl challenge. I could play that game for hours on end.

Ditto, only X's and O's, but I loved watching each play unfold in front of my eyes. That was THE Football sim back in the day.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Well, the reason I like taking it one small step beyond just circles is:

1. Adds a small amount of customization for the players and their teams (players can customize helmet/jersey color).

2. You can tell what direction players are facing. This adds alot, IMO.

I think if I can get the player movements working good I can convince players that this 1 extra level of detail is best for this sim. :)

[Apathetic Lurker]

You can do facing by putting a representation of facemasks on the helmets too..

This reminds me too much of robots.

[GrantDawg]

Insta-buy. Yes, very much so.

[kingfc22]

Insta-buy. Yes, very much so.

FINALLY something potentially on the horizon.

[Danny]

I think the graphics are fine for development purposes, but I would pay a graphics designer once the game is developed to build a good interface / graphics around your game. The sales you would get from that would more then make up for the cost of paying this person I would think.

[Blackadar]

The green needs to be toned down. The circles around the stats make me want to punch something. It's way too much of a strain on the eyes.

I agree. I think it would look better against a white/off-white background - it would be easier at a glance to tell the color is within the circle. As it is, if I stare at that screen and look away I see spots.

[Matthean]

I agree. I think it would look better against a white/off-white background - it would be easier at a glance to tell the color is within the circle. As it is, if I stare at that screen and look away I see spots.

I was thinking an off-white background as well. I don't even need the colored circles. I like tables that use different shaded backgrounds for every other line like this.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/06/swagger.jpg

It's just a nice clean look. I don't need the numbers to be colored in some way to stand out.

[tarcone]

Yeah, I cant read most of those numbers. The pastel yellows and greens and oranges on that green background makes it impossible for me. But I have bad eyes.

[saldana]

i would buy this...i always loved watching the play by play in TCY...if there were actual graphics to go with that, i would be all over it.

[markprior22]

Def interested...like many others have said...if the stats/progression stuff works correctly it would be a no brainer.

[Ben E Lou]

I got a private communication from Shane about this, and I debated whether to respond privately or publicly, and I think I want to do so publicly as food for thought for any other developers who might read this.

I think it is a massive mistake for a solo part-time developer (and maybe even full-time solo developer) to attempt to create a football text sim with a 2D engine. 2D presentation is fine, but every attempt I've seen at making the actual results engine 2D (and there have been several) has resulted in significant statistical problems.

So, I'm interested if the stats are up to snuff, but I have very little reason to believe the stats will be up to snuff. (That's no offense intended to Shane's abilities. I just don't believe it can be done by any one person in a reasonable amount of time.)

Beyond that, for a career sim, I don't have the time or patience to watch every game play out in 2D. MAYBE the Championship game some years, but I would doubt even that. So the reality is that the primary selling point of the game is a feature that I don't see myself using.

[QuikSand]

The only thing about that screen that I would say is definite is the icons used for showing the ratings 0-11.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ll7rWiY5obI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think it is a massive mistake for a solo part-time developer (and maybe even full-time solo developer) to attempt to create a football text sim with a 2D engine. 2D presentation is fine, but every attempt I've seen at making the actual results engine 2D (and there have been several) has resulted in significant statistical problems.

Completely agree with this, this is the sort of thing that everyone claims they really really want, and claims will make their lives so much better, but at the end of the day isn't anywhere near worth it. It's the sort of feature that gets a high-star review for someone who has spend 20 minutes with the game, but tends to undercut the people who'd like to spend 20 months with it.

I'd be delighted if the imaging stuff worked, but I hope it doesn't derail what could otherwise be a promising effort.

[Toddzilla]

Basically, if it's a marriage of FOF engine and XOR graphics, I'm in.

[bryce]

Didn't someone else announce an intention to do something similar a year or two ago? Gary Gorski maybe?

[QuikSand]

Didn't someone else announce an intention to do something similar a year or two ago? Gary Gorski maybe?

My sense is that the path to developing a good football sim game is a bit like heading up Mt. Everest...along the way you run into the various strewn bodies of earlier travelers who left with the same intentions but fell short for various reasons.

[Ben E Lou]

My sense is that the path to developing a good football sim game is a bit like heading up Mt. Everest...along the way you run into the various strewn bodies of earlier travelers who left with the same intentions but fell short for various reasons.This might be the greatest simile in the history of FOFC.

[Dutch]

This might be the greatest simile in the history of FOFC.

No kidding, nice one, QS.

[spleen1015]

All the more reason for Jim to stop making stupid shit and make another FOF. :D

[Buccaneer]

Except that a majority of the bodies on Everest (or other 8000+ meter peaks) are climbers that actually reached the summit but never made it down. I guess that would like having released a playable product but it could never be sustained or successul in the long-run.

There was an online version like but I forgot what it was called. A bunch of us here were in the league, which you had pay money for, but it didn't have any legs for the same reasons QS gave.

[Toddzilla]

Daivd Winter laughs at such folly

[MizzouRah]

A graphical football sim, you betcha!

[ShaneTheMaster]

Great points by many people on this. This is definitely a lofty goal - but it is achievable. The biggest hurdle for me (and any other solo part-time developer) is time.

BUT - if anyone can do it, it is me. I have been developing software for 25 years, and I have been a football nut since birth. I think at the very least, it will be fun to see a football game grow piece by piece, with community involvement along the way.

I've got the player generation/progression working, I got a professional 2d engine, and I'm top of it. :)

Hopefully I'll have a video of a kickoff in the next couple of days. :)

[Blackadar]

I agree with Todzilla - a marriage of XOR and FOF works just fine for me.

Shane - if you've neve seen the presentation of XOR football, please check it out. It's just Xs and Os, but it's perfect for a 2D presentation of the sport. It would probably be a lot easier for you to code and could be more attractive than your screenshot above.

[Dutch]

Great points by many people on this. This is definitely a lofty goal - but it is achievable. The biggest hurdle for me (and any other solo part-time developer) is time.

BUT - if anyone can do it, it is me. I have been developing software for 25 years, and I have been a football nut since birth. I think at the very least, it will be fun to see a football game grow piece by piece, with community involvement along the way.

I've got the player generation/progression working, I got a professional 2d engine, and I'm top of it. :)

Hopefully I'll have a video of a kickoff in the next couple of days. :)

F*** yeah. I'm rooting for ya.

[vex]

I'll buy.

[korme]

Bummed out that I'm now clearly the 2nd most important Shane on this forum

[cuervo72]

Bummed out that I'm now clearly the 2nd most important Shane on this forum

Can we change your handle to ShaneTheApprentice?

[sabotai]

I've got the player generation/progression working, I got a professional 2d engine, and I'm top of it. :)

What engine are you using? I've been messing around with Unity3D over the last year or two. Before that it was Torque. C# is my preferred language to code in now, which is the main reason I started using Unity.

[ShaneTheMaster]

What engine are you using? I've been messing around with Unity3D over the last year or two. Before that it was Torque. C# is my preferred language to code in now, which is the main reason I started using Unity.

XNA framework - (which XBOX games use)

[Super Ugly]

I'd buy this. Good luck!

[Matthean]

XNA framework - (which XBOX games use)

Does this mean you intend to release it on the XBox? I would think Steam would be the better place, hence I'm asking.

[SteveMax58]

Definite supporter of this & would buy 2 or 3 copies if I liked it enough. :)

The 2d is fine but I agree with others that stated circles, helmets, or something similar could be just as effective unless you want to improve the players over time more.

While I also agree with the "concern" with a solo developer & 2d (perhaps focus or prioritization of it) and the various other projects started with that goal in mind...I would say that you can avoid those types of issues by establishing what your engine's standard deviation can support for your various skillsets. Then make sure your player generation (and possibly your editor/importer) will "normalize" those skillsets so that they fall within what you establish as acceptable.

Best of luck to you on this Shane...this place will be hopping when you are ready to alpha/beta/whatever test this.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Does this mean you intend to release it on the XBox? I would think Steam would be the better place, hence I'm asking.

No, this is for the PC.

[AlexB]

Interest definitely piqued. I would also say on first impressions lose the pads and add a grille to the helmet to indicate direction they are facing, or maybe it's just the size of the pads that needs to be toned down?

Somebody mentioned robots, and it does look a little like that.

But I am definitely in the market for the type of game you are working on, so it will definitely get a dl when out for demo

And while Ben is right in what he says, just because others have failed to get 2D to work in line with realistic stats, doesn't mean everyone will.

[booradley]

When will this be ready for my amusement? Tomorrow? Saturday? I'm lenient ...

[ShaneTheMaster]

Did a good bit of work on the kickoff animation. The tricky part was getting the ball to make the unpredictable bounces when it hits the ground (although most of the time someone would be catching it.)

Just want to do a little more tweaking.

Anyone know of any easy way to record a video capture? And a place that will host it for free?

[Matthean]

Twitch (http://www.twitch.tv/)

Seems to be one geared towards games.

[Radii]

twitch.tv is really geared towards live streaming, but it is an option I suppose. The potential issue with twitch as a marketing tool is that if you set up a stream to show a kickoff and something goes wrong, what you streamed is saved for awhile. Apparently for a shorter amount of time than I thought actually, from a support thread on twitch(Twitch Upload Question (http://support.twitch.tv/discussion/1809/how-do-i-upload-videos-on-my-channel):))

Twitch.tv is not youtube, you can't upload videos to it. You can stream live broadcasts, and it will automatically record them (saved for 4 days unless you click "save forever"), that's as far as it goes.

Using desktop recording software like fraps and then uploading to youtube would be my first thought.

[Grammaticus]

I would buy a solid finished product. The 2D graphics are not an issue with me. If the play flows correctly, the pads, a helmet, circles, etc. does not matter to me.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

multiplayer?

[Fidatelo]

At work we use Jing (http://www.techsmith.com/jing.html) to create and share progress videos up to 5 minutes long for free.

[ShaneTheMaster]

multiplayer?

Yes - I haven't figured out exactly how the multiplayer aspect will work, yet, though. My initial emphasis will be on making sure the thing can give an accurate simulation of professional football.

[ShaneTheMaster]

When will this be ready for my amusement? Tomorrow? Saturday? I'm lenient ...

Not anytime soon, but would like an active community see it as it is developed.

[ShaneTheMaster]

These youtube videos don't do this justice, but it'll have to do until I figure out how to share higher quality videos.

I've been working on the kickoff animations, and how a player's attributes affect the kickoff itself. It's hard to see, but notice how the ball can bounce funny after it hits the ground, just like in real life. Some tweaking may be necessary. I also made the length of the shoulder pads a little shorter - but you probably won't be able to tell that in these videos. Also note that in all videos, the kicker is aiming to kick the ball right down the middle.

Below are 3 videos demonstrating 3 different kicks by the same player with a leg strength rating of 6, and a kickoff accuracy rating of 6.

http://youtu.be/EC1RCv7B898
http://youtu.be/WJWfvoeog1E
http://youtu.be/BnCp7am0P54

Below are 3 kicks by a different player, but this player has a leg strength rating of 9, and a kickoff accuracy rating of 0.

http://youtu.be/q5BxNBjf7Ho
http://youtu.be/XVJypLCg9qc
http://youtu.be/W9WdasW7hAg

Next up: "teaching" a player to catch the kickoff.

[Matthean]

Never has there been so much excitement in empty field kickoffs. :lol:

[sabotai]

Good luck with it, Shane. I've been working on my own football game as well* (with Unity3D - will be in 2D though of course). And I'm sure about dozen other people reading this thread have half finished football sims on their computers too. Law of averages says one of us should actually finish a 2D football game (or at least just a new sim) one of these days, right? ....right!? :)


* - splitting time with a grand strategy game set in the ancient (european/middle eastern/north african) world. Both are still in the early stage and whichever one I have the most interest in as time goes on will get the majority of my time. Full disclosure.....I'm currently leaning towards the strategy game. If anything, because I just see more sales potential there. (......not that i have a track record of finishing anything....)


Anyway, not trying to steal Shane's thunder. Looking forward to more videos.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Good luck with it, Shane. I've been working on my own football game as well* (with Unity3D - will be in 2D though of course). And I'm sure about dozen other people reading this thread have half finished football sims on their computers too. Law of averages says one of us should actually finish a 2D football game (or at least just a new sim) one of these days, right? ....right!? :)


* - splitting time with a grand strategy game set in the ancient (european/middle eastern/north african) world. Both are still in the early stage and whichever one I have the most interest in as time goes on will get the majority of my time. Full disclosure.....I'm currently leaning towards the strategy game. If anything, because I just see more sales potential there. (......not that i have a track record of finishing anything....)


Anyway, not trying to steal Shane's thunder. Looking forward to more videos.

Cool, good luck with your endeavors!

[Blackadar]

Don't mean to nitpick, but in 2 of the 6 demonstrations the ball pitches backwards upon landing. Now that happens on a punt every so often, but it's extremely rare for a kickoff given the trajectory of the kick. FootballUniverse KP9 KA0 1b - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVJypLCg9qc&feature=youtu.be) in particular looked rather unrealistic. That's a kickoff from the 35 yard line that hits the 10 and rebounds back almost to the 30 yard line. It's probably possible from a physics standpoint for that to happen, but it certainly isn't likely.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[saldana]

looking good shane..it was like watching tecmo from a blimp!

really looking forward to more on this

[ShaneTheMaster]

Don't mean to nitpick, but in 2 of the 6 demonstrations the ball pitches backwards upon landing. Now that happens on a punt every so often, but it's extremely rare for a kickoff given the trajectory of the kick. FootballUniverse KP9 KA0 1b - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVJypLCg9qc&feature=youtu.be) in particular looked rather unrealistic. That's a kickoff from the 35 yard line that hits the 10 and rebounds back almost to the 30 yard line. It's probably possible from a physics standpoint for that to happen, but it certainly isn't likely.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I somewhat agree in that the maximum football acceleration amount needs to toned down a little bit when the football hits the ground, but the football bouncing backwards doesn't happen that often (maybe 10% of the time) - I just chose that video as an example to illustrate the bouncing ball algorthm that I had created.

Good point about it happening more often on punts because of the way the ball spins!

[Vaevictis_386]

I'd love it because of the 2D, provided the 2d does what I want.

I want to be able to make roster and play calling decisions based off of what I see in the 2D.

Example: Guard pulls too slow, never where I need him to be on a sweep, but he knocks defenders down on inside runs. Time to crank up the inside run game!

Example: Receiver misses lots of catches on inside routes, but is ok on routes towards sideline. Time to cut that wimpy fool!

[Vince, Pt. II]

Probably something you realize, but might want to stop the camera from continuing to pan to the right once the end zone is in view. Seeing 80% black screen and 20% football field is weird.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Probably something you realize, but might want to stop the camera from continuing to pan to the right once the end zone is in view. Seeing 80% black screen and 20% football field is weird.


Yep, plenty of little things like that still need to be done.

[Blackadar]

Shane, we're football purists. You'll hear many suggestions/comments like those in Vince's and my posts if you hang around. I hope you understand that we're also football sim junkies and want to help make any product the absolute best it can be, including yours. As such, our suggestions/comments are meant to be helpful and not negative or hurtful in any way.

[Toddzilla]

Just to clarify, the 2D will just represent what the AI has already determined what the result of the play was and not influence play outcomes, correct?

[ShaneTheMaster]

Shane, we're football purists. You'll hear many suggestions/comments like those in Vince's and my posts if you hang around. I hope you understand that we're also football sim junkies and want to help make any product the absolute best it can be, including yours. As such, our suggestions/comments are meant to be helpful and not negative or hurtful in any way.

Absolutely - thats why I like posting my progress on here - to get good feedback from fellow football purists. :)

[ShaneTheMaster]

Just to clarify, the 2D will just represent what the AI has already determined what the result of the play was and not influence play outcomes, correct?

Good question. The answer is No. (For the most part.)

For the most part, I am not doing a bunch of precalculations or "dice rolls" before the play begins, and then showing an animation that shows a summary of the results. Decision by the players are being made dynamically at run time, so the 2D engine is used to determine the results. The result of the play is not known until the play is finished.

This will work just like Football Pro did - the only difference between a "simmed" game and a played game is that the graphics aren't rendered in a "simmed" game, so there isn't any difference statistically between a played game and simmed game - they use the same engine.

[Toddzilla]

then I'm out

[boberot]

I somewhat agree in that the maximum football acceleration amount needs to toned down a little bit when the football hits the ground, but the football bouncing backwards doesn't happen that often (maybe 10% of the time) - I just chose that video as an example to illustrate the bouncing ball algorthm that I had created.

Good point about it happening more often on punts because of the way the ball spins!


Did somebody say Maximum Football?!?!

[ShaneTheMaster]

then I'm out

Just curious, why are you "out"? I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

[Toddzilla]

The jist of what I think you said is that the graphics are going to somehow influence the outcome of the plays, even in some slight fashion, and that's a stone-cold out for me.

[Buccaneer]

I haven't kept up but I assume that all strategy games' graphics are pre-determined and then rendered - including RTS, TBS and (non-interactive) sports.

[jbergey22]

I haven't kept up but I assume that all strategy games' graphics are pre-determined and then rendered - including RTS, TBS and (non-interactive) sports.

You would think so. I am not sure how you could possibly design it the other way around at this time and get realistic results.

Football Manager clearly has the graphics come into play after the results are figured out.

[Baldric]

My understanding was that the graphics are representative of the logic in the Match Engine, but the play will continue to develop in real time, instead of being precalculated.

[ShaneTheMaster]

My understanding was that the graphics are representative of the logic in the Match Engine, but the play will continue to develop in real time, instead of being precalculated.

ding ding ding ding ding ding.. We have a winner!

[stevew]

Good luck. I remember an online acquaintance once built a basketball game from scratch and literally sold like one copy.

Love the Mt. Everest analogy quik.

[Vince, Pt. II]

You would think so. I am not sure how you could possibly design it the other way around at this time and get realistic results.

Football Manager clearly has the graphics come into play after the results are figured out.

He's basically saying that the rendering and the game engine happen simultaneously. The graphics aren't somehow deciding the outcome of the play, just that he doesn't get a result and then somehow build a visual representation of it after the fact.

[ShaneTheMaster]

He's basically saying that the rendering and the game engine happen simultaneously. The graphics aren't somehow deciding the outcome of the play, just that he doesn't get a result and then somehow build a visual representation of it after the fact.

This. Thanks for explaining it alot better than I did. :)

[Toddzilla]

Awesome! I'm back in :)

[Vince, Pt. II]

This. Thanks for explaining it alot better than I did. :)

You're welcome :)

[ShaneTheMaster]

Been working on having 2 receivers on the opposing team - one of them (the closest) will commit to receiving the ball, the other will start running upfield ahead of him (and later on will block for him).

Sometimes, he will not catch the ball - he will drop it, or he will not be able to get to it. He will then have to pick it up (later this will be enhanced to account for other teammates around the ball).

Will post a video in the next few days to show this.