Settle a Bar Debate: Yankees Mount Rushmore

[Pyser]

title pretty much says it all. i'm not a yankee fan at all, but it's a pretty easy debate. who would go on the yankees mount rushmore. the biggest argument last night was actually over mariano rivera, so curious to see the thoughts here.

poll coming, if i can figure out how.

[rowech]

Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle

Don't possibly know how it can be anybody else.

[Sun Tzu]

Giambi
Tartabull
Key
Ruth

[mckerney]

Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle

Don't possibly know how it can be anybody else.

Voted this and even if one of the modern guys were to get on there I'd have to say it would be Jeter. Sure, I could see arguments that Rivera has been better/more valuable, but Jeter has been the face of the franchise as long as I can remember his being there. He's been the iconic member of the Yankees recent success which to me matters for the the Mount Rushmore debate.

[Comey]

Giambi
Tartabull
Key
Ruth

You forgot Ken Phelps.

[Comey]

Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle

Don't possibly know how it can be anybody else.

And agreed. How crazy is it that Mantle would be the most likely to be moved to make way for Jeter?

[Desnudo]

Jeter is on the Rushmore of unnecessary jump throws

[Sun Tzu]

You forgot Ken Phelps.

That would just be silly.

[Lathum]

The problem is Rivera needs to be on there but who gets left off?

[Blackadar]

Billy Martin
Billy Martin
Billy Martin
and...
Billy Martin

If it was good enough for Steinbrenner, it's good enough for me!

[rowech]

Maybe Yankees should have pre 1960 and post 1960.

[revrew]

Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle

Don't possibly know how it can be anybody else.

This.

[murrayyyyy]

The problem is Rivera needs to be on there but who gets left off?

Why would Rivera go before Whitey Ford?

[vex]

Rivera might be last out of all of the possible selections here. That's nothing against him, just the reality of the situation.

And there is no way to not vote Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Gehrig.

[korme]

Yeah, it's the four who are leading and everybody else can be on the 2nd tier of mount Rushmore.

Mantle being the first off doesn't sound that crazy, considering who he's going up against.

[Swaggs]

Rickey wants to know why Rickey is not on the ballot?

[cuervo72]

Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle

Don't possibly know how it can be anybody else.

Yep.

[stevew]

Modern-
Rivera
Jeter
Pettite
The 4th spot is hard. I could see cases for ARod, Bernie, Posada, and even Paul O'Neil and (edit) obviously Torre.

[stevew]

Rickey wants to know why Rickey is not on the ballot?

I would associate Rickey with the A's if Rickey had this question.

[murrayyyyy]

Modern-
Rivera
Jeter
Pettite
The 4th spot is hard. I could see cases for ARod, Bernie, Posada, and even Paul O'Neil and (edit) obviously Torre.

Don Mattingly? I'd probably have him before Posada or O'Neil.

[ISiddiqui]

Interestingly enough I think its a slight bit closer than thought (then again, I've always been of a the opinion that DiMaggio, while one of the greats is highly overrated - Mantle is a better player). Though the 4 seem fairly clear (though I threw on Rivera just because what he's done has been phenomenal for a CL - easy #1 for his position all time).

Anyways, saying that - Career WAR (BR's version):

Ruth 178.3 (1st all time)
Gehrig 108.5 (18th)
Mantle 105.5 (20th)
DiMaggio 75.1 (66th)

Jeter 69.3 (83rd)

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, I was going to say that off the top of my head DiMaggio would be the first I kick off the mountain, but the only one even close is Jeter. I don't think he outclasses DiMaggio.

[Ryan S]

Modern-
Rivera
Jeter
Pettite
The 4th spot is hard. I could see cases for ARod, Bernie, Posada, and even Paul O'Neil and (edit) obviously Torre.

When does the Modern Era start? If it is 1970 onwards you could make cases for Don Mattingly, Reggie Jackson or Thurman Munson

[stevew]

Don Mattingly? I'd probably have him before Posada or O'Neil.

Yeah, I guess he's modern. Winfield and Reggie(if he's considered a Yankee) as well

[rowech]

Yeah, I guess he's modern. Winfield and Reggie(if he's considered a Yankee) as well

Reggie comes to mind quickly but he really wasn't there very long at all.

[Pyser]

yeah reggie was only like 4 or 5 years.

not nearly as much love for jeter and mariano as i expected. i suspect in 20 years, and then in 40, this will probably look different. should be cool to see something like this evolve

[kcchief19]

The problem is Rivera needs to be on there but who gets left off?
Rivera's great and all, but the Yankees won 27 titles before the closer was ever invented. Would the Yankees have won as many titles with a lesser closer? Probably yes.

Would the Yankees have won the titles they did without DiMaggio and Mantle? Probably no.

Ruth and Gehrig aren't even debatable.

[stevew]

I don't think any teams will win with the frequency of past concentrations. The Celtics winning 11 in 13 years is just absurd.

[Atocep]

I know the popular thing to do now is gush over how awesome Rivera has been but he has just over 1200 innings pitched for his career. He's hands down the best closer ever and all, but he still has 100 less innings pitched in his career than Brandon Webb had.

No way you can even get him into the discussion for something like this.

[PilotMan]

I think the argument has been settled.

[Marmel]

I'm a huge jeter fan, but he is 5th at best

[Desnudo]

I don't think any teams will win with the frequency of past concentrations. The Celtics winning 11 in 13 years is just absurd.

I think talking about Rivera in this context is like saying a great 6th man in basketball deserves consideration

[korme]

I don't think any teams will win with the frequency of past concentrations. The Celtics winning 11 in 13 years is just absurd.

Sports history can sometimes be absurd. These records are impressive, but those titles came in a league with 16 teams. You had to be better than 7 teams and you were in the World Series. Same with the Celtics, and even the fuckin Montreal Canadiens who won all those titles in a 6-team (SIX!) league. Woopty doo.

[korme]

Not to mention Montreal got first pick every draft of every French Canadian, but that's another topic for another day.

[Danny]

FWIW, I did not vote based on performance, but who is considered in the general mindset to be the all time yankees. For that reason I left Gehrig off and put in Jeter.

[BYU 14]

Ruth, Mantle and Dimaggio are no brainers for me. After that I really want to go Gehrig, and he deserves it, but I gave the 4th vote to Jeter. In this day and age such loyalty to one franchise is rare (yes I know he was rewarded handsomely for it) but he is one that embodies the Yankee legacy as well as any player IMO.

I just wish there was a 5th slot for Gehrig. An argument could be made for Rivera similar to the reasoning I used to add Jeter, but he is a close 6th IMO.

He is for sure the greatest reliever in the history of the game, but I can't put him top 4.

[korme]

Leaving off Gehrig is inexcusable. Lou fuckin Gehrig!

[BYU 14]

Leaving off Gehrig is inexcusable. Lou fuckin Gehrig!

Yeah, thinking about it more, I would almost have to replace Mantle with Gehrig.

Dammit Mount Rushmore should have a 5th spot!

[rowech]

Yeah, thinking about it more, I would almost have to replace Mantle with Gehrig.

Dammit Mount Rushmore should have a 5th spot!

Unless we're counting dating hot women, there is no chance Jeter replaces Mantle. Mantle at the top of his game was better that almost anybody who has ever played the game.

I mean he's top 10 all-time -- top 15 at the worst.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I guess I'm not understanding the DiMaggio love. Yes, he was great. But to me he's clearly the 4th on this list, and it's not even close. Ruth, Mantle and Gehrig are the top three, DiMaggio is a distant 4th and Jeter is a distant 5th behind him. The gap between DiMaggio and Jeter is much smaller than the gap between Gehrig/Mantle and DiMaggio though.

[rowech]

I guess I'm not understanding the DiMaggio love. Yes, he was great. But to me he's clearly the 4th on this list, and it's not even close. Ruth, Mantle and Gehrig are the top three, DiMaggio is a distant 4th and Jeter is a distant 5th behind him. The gap between DiMaggio and Jeter is much smaller than the gap between Gehrig/Mantle and DiMaggio though.

Totally agree.

[Ramzavail]

IMO - DiMaggio was a better hitter and player than Mantle. His career numbers take a hit from losing his prime years due to the war. Therefore, I kept Mantle off and added Ford to have a pitcher on the Mount.

Sure - top 4 hitters are Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D and Mantle - but slided off Mantle to add a pitcher in Ford. And I think Ford is super underrated when you talk about great pitchers. Take deadball pitchers out, Whitey Ford has the lowest ERA of any LHP of all time. All time.

[hoopsguy]

You forgot Ken Phelps.

My baseball people loved his bat.
KEN PHELPS! KEN PHELPS!

[MrBug708]

IMO - DiMaggio was a better hitter and player than Mantle. His career numbers take a hit from losing his prime years due to the war. Therefore, I kept Mantle off and added Ford to have a pitcher on the Mount.

Sure - top 4 hitters are Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D and Mantle - but slided off Mantle to add a pitcher in Ford. And I think Ford is super underrated when you talk about great pitchers. Take deadball pitchers out, Whitey Ford has the lowest ERA of any LHP of all time. All time.

.01 ahead of Koufax, which was a shame since Koufax's ERA was dropping astronomically.

[ISiddiqui]

I guess I'm not understanding the DiMaggio love. Yes, he was great. But to me he's clearly the 4th on this list, and it's not even close. Ruth, Mantle and Gehrig are the top three, DiMaggio is a distant 4th and Jeter is a distant 5th behind him. The gap between DiMaggio and Jeter is much smaller than the gap between Gehrig/Mantle and DiMaggio though.

Yep, hence the WAR numbers I posted earlier up thread. DiMaggio is overrated while Mantle is criminally underrated (yes, underrated -that's how good he was).

[Atocep]

Ruth, Gehrig, and Mantle are 3 of the top 20 or so players in MLB history. I don't see how you could remove any of them. Dimaggio would be the first guy you'd look to leave off, but he's still just a bit ahead of Jeter.

For me, this is probably one of the easier Mount Rushmores for MLB teams since when I think of the Yankees Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, and DiMaggio are the first names that come to mind.


i suspect in 20 years, and then in 40, this will probably look different. should be cool to see something like this evolve

The most likely thing to happen over that time is Jeter becomes DiMaggio-like in the sense that he's an easy Hall of Fame caliber player that is still grossly overrated by those that remember his playing days fondly.

[dawgfan]

Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle

Don't possibly know how it can be anybody else.
This.

Yankees have had some tremendous talent, but this actually pretty easy.

[DougW]

I'm interested in the details of this "debate". Was it just 1 guy trying to get Rivera in ? Did the others at the table agree he was crazy ?

I could see a little bit of Jeter love getting him in the conversation - but, as said above - it has to be Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle.

[Pyser]

I'm interested in the details of this "debate". Was it just 1 guy trying to get Rivera in ? Did the others at the table agree he was crazy ?

I could see a little bit of Jeter love getting him in the conversation - but, as said above - it has to be Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle.

yes, was one guy saying rivera belonged. the debate turned pretty quickly from "right now" to "in 50 years", which i think will really change things. no one alive will remember the older group of players. jeter will be on for sure. rivera was the biggest argument. also depends how the role of closers evolve.

i guess a more interesting poll wouldve been "it's 2063, which 4 yankees are on their mount rushmore?"

my bad.

[korme]

I am alive and don't remember the older group of players now. Still, the stats don't lie: The top 4 are the older group of guys.

[dawgfan]

I am alive and don't remember the older group of players now. Still, the stats don't lie: The top 4 are the older group of guys.
Exactly.

[Warhammer]

IMO - DiMaggio was a better hitter and player than Mantle. His career numbers take a hit from losing his prime years due to the war. Therefore, I kept Mantle off and added Ford to have a pitcher on the Mount.

Sure - top 4 hitters are Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D and Mantle - but slided off Mantle to add a pitcher in Ford. And I think Ford is super underrated when you talk about great pitchers. Take deadball pitchers out, Whitey Ford has the lowest ERA of any LHP of all time. All time.

Agreed. I didn't vote for Ford, but this echoes my thoughts perfectly.

[murrayyyyy]

And I think Ford is super underrated when you talk about great pitchers. Take deadball pitchers out, Whitey Ford has the lowest ERA of any LHP of all time. All time.

And he also served in the Army during the Korean War for 2 years during his career (so his win totals would be better one would assume). Jeter didn't fight in any wars.

Why do people love Jeter so much? He didn't win a Gold Glove until they went out and traded for the Gold Glove guy and moved him to third. I understand he got 3k in hits but besides that he is/was average at best defensively.

[PilotMan]

And he also served in the Army during the Korean War for 2 years during his career (so his win totals would be better one would assume). Jeter didn't fight in any wars.

Why do people love Jeter so much? He didn't win a Gold Glove until they went out and traded for the Gold Glove guy and moved him to third. I understand he got 3k in hits but besides that he is/was average at best defensively.

He is certainly one of the best Yankees ever, but I agree, I don't see him in the mix in this conversation for the top 4. Clearly in the to 7 for sure, and that is a big deal considering the Yankee dynasty as a whole.

[mckerney]

He is certainly one of the best Yankees ever, but I agree, I don't see him in the mix in this conversation for the top 4. Clearly in the to 7 for sure, and that is a big deal considering the Yankee dynasty as a whole.

I think it comes down to what you consider the purpose of Mount Rushmore. I think of it as a representation of the most iconic members of the team so as the consistent face of the franchise during a period where the Yankees won 5 World Series titles I think he deserves strong consideration even though I wouldn't pick him as one of the four. If you think it's the best 4 players i don't think his qualifications are nearly as strong.