A Question For You All (about my sim)

[sabotai]

This is a copy of what I posted at my site. A reply would be greatly appriciated.

"I have been following the recent developements over at .400 Software about the development of Total Pro Football (formally knwon as Football.net). I've been reading over their feature lists and what not and it sounds liek they have a really solid game going on. Most of the features I have planned for FLS seemed to have made their way to their game as well.

Now, now, I'm not accusing them a stealing my ideas (before anyone jumps on that), and just say "great minds think alike" and that many of them are just a natural progression of the genre.

Now, the question I have is that I highly suspect that since they have several people working on their game and it's just me for mine, their game will most likely be much better than mine.

Just to make this clear, FLS will be completed. I will finish this game. The question I am asking is how much of an interest will there be for a second sim that allows multiplayer? I have no problem spending my time making a sim that I will probably only charge around $20 for (almost half of what others price their's at). But what I don't want to do is do that, and then have no one buy it. Is it worth my time? Will there be a demand for another? If not, then I will gladly move on to my other projects, while still doing this one "on the side", without an harsh feelings.

From the looks of it, if I were to have to choose, I'd probably choose their's too. :) So I'm not bitter at all. I hope they make a kick ass game because then I'll get to play it.

I'm just rambling now. So that's what I'm asking, and if you don't mind, shoot a response over at the message board. Do I continue to work on FLS or should I move on to other things (while still doing it on the side)? I don't want to keep spending what little free time I have on a project that no one is interested in."

[Easy Mac]

i'll definitely give it a look, as I've been generally unhappy with 400 products so far, but given my current economy ($20 to my name), it may be a while before I would purchase it... of course, I don't like multi-player, so what do I know.

[Bee]

I'd just say that hattrick isn't as complex a game as CM4, yet quite a few people play it as opposed to CM4. If you make a game that's fun to play, people will buy it IMO.

[Franklinnoble]

I'm not into multiplayer, either. If the single-player aspect kicks ass, I'd buy it.

[Marmel]

The MP aspect probably depends on how good the original turns out.

In all honesty, I am not really looking forward to the 400 studios game. I have no solid evidence, but I just feel the games ni each sports are going to be cookie cutters of each other, and I am not all that big on their other 2 games. They also do not truly feel (especially TDCB) like text sims in the nature that FOF is (which is my favorite text sim).

This probably did not give you an answer you were looking for, but I thought it might give you just 1 perspective...

[Easy Mac]

Also, I know that one of my all-time favorite games is MLSM by Dan Ryazansky. It was no where as deep as CM, but when I wanted to hammer out 10 season in an hour or so, I'd play it. Sometimes the simpler games are more fun to play, because its easier to get lost in them, and its easier to build a history quickly but still be a part of it.

[sabotai]

Marmel, just simply getting a reply from you about anything makes my day. :)

[sabotai]

Easy,

I know what you mean. There was the hockey sim that I doubt anyone ever heard off and the name of the sim excapes me right now. (A guy who wrote a few FPS Football Pro utilities made it)

It was buggy. I was very basic. But it was fun as hell and I've probably spent more time with that (years ago when I had it) than I did with EHM.

[Fritz]

up with sabotai's sim!

[sabotai]

w00t

[Anrhydeddu]

Marm is just so full of himself today.

[albionmoonlight]

I agree. Simpler does not have to mean << fun.

[Barkeep49]

Having not followed either game's development closely I think it all depends on whether not you have a "hook" that they don't. if, for instnace, you have a better simulation engine or a more immersive universe then it's quite possible both games can succeed. Puresim is an example of someone competing happily against .400 sports.

[sachmo71]

If it's good, I'll pay.

[mrsimperless]

I'm working on a football sim as well, but mine will be solely an online/multiplayer game. The beta and alpha releases will be free, but I'll probably have to charge if I ever release it to pay for bandwidth and server space.

To answer your question, I would definitely check your game out. I hope you have a demo version of the game, because I don't see myself spending money on something that I am unable to try first. Best of luck to you though!

Just out of curiosity, what language are you developing in?

[sabotai]

"Just out of curiosity, what language are you developing in?"

Borland Delphi 5

[klayman]

I'll buy it just to support you. I fully expect you to return the favor to me when I get around to making one :)

[AgPete]

Not that it makes a difference, but I put a link up for your game on my home page Sabotai. (link below in sig) Now, all 5 people that look at the site can link to your game. :D I'll buy your game out of support Sabotai, just like I did and will HeavyReign's sims. You have to start somewhere. One day you guys might be the next .400 or Solecismic. Keep up the good work bro, we can always use a new sim! :)

[Fritz]

I am going to pirate the game.

[QuikSand]

I'm in.

[Bee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm in.

the mailman?

[Marmel]

Originally posted by sabotai
Marmel, just simply getting a reply from you about anything makes my day. :)



??? Was I being condescending or just plain old being a dick or something? Between this and Anhry's post I am confused.

I was trying to be sincere.


If you were being serious, well, then nevermind and thank you. :)

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

If its half as good as OOTP 5 Im sold on your product....I myself prefer SP over MP though when it comes to everything but MP .

[Daimyo]

I don't like OOTP much at all and 400 studios handled the release of TDCB about as bad as possible, so I'd say for me personally, I'd be much more likely to buy the non-400 game than the 400 game all else being equal.

[sabotai]

Marmel, I was only joking. Your response was appriciated (and helpful)

"Not that it makes a difference, but I put a link up for your game on my home page Sabotai. (link below in sig) Now, all 5 people that look at the site can link to your game. "

AgPete, thanks, that'll increase the total number of people who visit my site to about 8 or 9. :D

"I am going to pirate the game."

Sweet. If my game is worth pirating, then it must be valuable. :D

And just an FYI, I am focusing on single-player while multi-player will be secondary. The reason it's taking me long to write this thing (other than, of course, that I don't have much free time) is all the AI for the computer teams. So I am trying to make it a great single-player experience with the ability to do online leagues, rather than a great online league experience with the ability to do single player games.

[Swaggs]

I'll always try to support the indy developers. If you guys dry up, then the same old crap will just keep getting recycled.

[mckerney]

If it's good, and it has multiplayer, and I haven't spent my last $20 on blow, yeah, I'd probably buy it.

[Solecismic]

Stick with it. The greater the competition, the higher the bar gets.

I was right where you were five years ago. About two months from completion, Clay Dreslough announced Football Mogul was almost done. Scared the hell out of me. I was a !#&^!ing nobody**, going head to head against the guy who revolutionized the genre.

Don't be intimidated. You might well be creating something that will be remembered long after FOF bites the big bit bucket in the sky.

**now I'm still a #@$^&ing nobody, but at least I haven't had to sit in a cubicle for five years. Amazing how the simple hatred of cubicles can lead to such a life-changing decision.

[sabotai]

I don't have a hatred of cubicles, thanks to never having to have to work in one, but I do have a fear that I will end up in one some day.

Thanks for the advise Jim, it's greatly appriciated. Coming from you, it means a lot.

So there we have it. Thanks for all of the replies. I'll continue to make FLS a priority and hopefully I'll get it done...before all my hair turns gray.

[oykib]

Simpler is not always lesser. I think Baseball Mogul is more fun than OOTP. Playing OOTP seems like a chore to me. Of course Mogul is too easy.

Here's hoping Jim's new game is baseball.

[Anthony]

none of .400 Studios games are automatic buys for me except OOTP, their franchise game. all the other games they come out with i will hold off on until the masses sing their praises. the days of me automatically buying games are over.

if a guy puts in a game what i want and for better or worse 75% of the features work as advertised i'll buy the game. it's all about the fun and realism for me. MP is not a big draw for me but i'm finding it's best to have that option because beating up on the AI gets old eventually.

[RoastDuck]

Originally posted by oykib
Simpler is not always lesser. I think Baseball Mogul is more fun than OOTP. Playing OOTP seems like a chore to me. Of course Mogul is too easy.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Different people like different games. I am sure there is room for sabotai, .400 and any other developer out there, people will buy both (especially FLS at $20.00) because they like the genre, I will anyway.

People look at Championship Manager and see the king of its genre and this is probably true but I must have purchased 10-15 similar games over the years and had just as much fun with some of them. Indeed, without those previous soccer management sims I am sure CM would only be half the game it is now.

I check your site regularly sab, your game looks neat. Keep on coding, I am sure you will learn some valuable experience from this project whether the game is a roaring success or not.

[TroyF]

Sab,

I'll purchase your game. :)

I'm with the others who could care less about multi player.

That is the one area of the .400 game I'm concerned about. OOTP didn't get really good for solo play until #4 (IMO). If the football game ends up the same, it'll be worthless for me to play. (I'll probably buy the darned thing anyway, I just can't help myself) :)

TroyF

[Taur]

I am still looking for the "NFL Tycoon" game to come along.

Your finances look interesting and promissing. Hopefully they will not turn out to be just "Eye Candy" and the player will actually be able to do something with his budget.

The FOF series has stopped all progress in the financial area and it sounds like .400 studios will not have a real financial mode either. This is a huge Niche in a crowded market that could be really exploited.

A game where the bottom line is as important as winning.

[Bee]

Originally posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER
I myself prefer SP over MP though when it comes to everything but MP .

:D

[Karim]

I'm also still looking for a pro football career management sim with a focus on SP and finances/management as opposed to coaching. I didnt' enjoy OOTP4 and haven't looked at .400 Studios since.

I'll take a look at any sim out there and have been to your site periodically to check on the status of the game so definitely don't give up now.

[Marc Vaughan]

Keep going, don't worry too much about competition .... just concentrate on making the best game that you can, in the way that you think is best.

IMHO each sim has a unique flavour and there's definitely room for multiple successful games in each sport.

[Frank of CCPB/JSB]

Well we have 12 months in a year.
Just make the game already.
Most sports now have more than one game anyway.
a. The popularity of football
b. Jim probably going to a new sport (job opening here)
c. The .400 title may just make people crave more of the same/similar (I get bored with Madden so I buy 2K3)

[SplitPersonality1]

I've been following the development of your game for quite some time sabotai, and will definately give it a chance. I have many "projects" that I have started and stopped for various reasons, and would like to support any indie developer that puts out a quality product.

(Of course I'm just assuming it will be of quality :) )

FWIW - everytime I see this thread title, I see "A Question For You All (about my sin)" - I think I need to get more sleep.

[sabotai]

"Your finances look interesting and promissing. Hopefully they will not turn out to be just "Eye Candy" and the player will actually be able to do something with his budget.

The FOF series has stopped all progress in the financial area and it sounds like .400 studios will not have a real financial mode either. This is a huge Niche in a crowded market that could be really exploited.

A game where the bottom line is as important as winning."

Well, at the moment, they don't do much, but they are more than eye candy. If you turn hire/fire on, finances do play a factor in if you get fired. (And for those who don't want that, you can let the computer take over finances and not be penelized if they are poor).

If you have any suggestions on how to make finances a bigger part, I'm all ears.

"(Of course I'm just assuming it will be of quality )"

That's a big assumption. :D

"FWIW - everytime I see this thread title, I see "A Question For You All (about my sin)""

If you knew me personally, that'd make it even funnier. :D

[sabotai]

dola,

Again, I greatly appriciate the replies (pep talks :) ).

[TroyF]

Sabotai,

If I were you, this thread would be disheartening.

Let me explain. . . My "drug" of choice in life is the words "you can't do it" I mean, I love hearing those words. I'd be the player in CM who would put up 10 straight 8's, get criticized by my manager and then throw up a string of 9's. :)

If you happen to be that type of person, I just wanted you to know I'm 100% sure you'll fail miserably in this attempt. :) :) :)

Well, I guess it loses its meaning with all of those smiley's. Oh well, you get the point.

Good luck,

TroyF

[ScottVib]

To me Jim, Frank and Marc have hit the nail on the head right here. If it's something you love, keep going, many of the games out there started as simple labors of love, and became great games that we all play.

Besides without competition the market eventually starts to stagnate... the more people with innovative ideas that are out there, the better things get for all of us. In the end I think all of us are gamers at heart and having a choice to pick the gaming experience that is right for you is a good thing.

There is no reason that multiple games can't all survive and a little healthy competition never hurt anyone.

[sabotai]

TroyF,

No, I'm not that kind of person and since you say I'll fail miserably then I will just give up now. Thanks for saving me the humilation of failing. :D

Actually, I do try harder when someone tells me I can't do something...normally it's followed by a "I told you so." but that doesn't stop me from trying. :)

[Anrhydeddu]

"Your finances look interesting and promissing. Hopefully they will not turn out to be just "Eye Candy" and the player will actually be able to do something with his budget.

The FOF series has stopped all progress in the financial area and it sounds like .400 studios will not have a real financial mode either. This is a huge Niche in a crowded market that could be really exploited.

I agree with this completely and if this is your niche, I am so there. The reason is simply that this is the one key area the forces critical decision making. FOF makes this irrelevant and 400 only makes it work through house rules.

Besides without competition the market eventually starts to stagnate... the more people with innovative ideas that are out there, the better things get for all of us. In the end I think all of us are gamers at heart and having a choice to pick the gaming experience that is right for you is a good thing.

I agree with this as well. FOF4 took a step backwards, imo; FM was worthless; GM stuff is not where Madden is at; and 400 will take a while to find its place.

For me, just open up the roster files and have customized league settings to go along with a good financial model - and I'll be a champion. Oh, don't forget oodles of nice reports that can be exported or html-ed. :)

[primelord]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I agree with this completely and if this is your niche, I am so there. The reason is simply that this is the one key area the forces critical decision making. FOF makes this irrelevant and 400 only makes it work through house rules.



I agree with this as well. FOF4 took a step backwards, imo; FM was worthless; GM stuff is not where Madden is at; and 400 will take a while to find its place.

For me, just open up the roster files and have customized league settings to go along with a good financial model - and I'll be a champion. Oh, don't forget oodles of nice reports that can be exported or html-ed. :)

You crack me up Anhrsmergenbergen.