No more Stockton to Malone

[Craptacular]

John Stockton to retire (http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0502/1548503.html)

I guess it's not a surprise. What a career!

[JeeberD]

Good. Damn cheater...

[Kodos]

Thanks for the memories, John!

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by JeeberD
Good. Damn cheater...

You know, 19 years in the NBA is great and all that, but I gotta agree. Stockton and Malone comprised the dirtiest tandem in NBA history. They were just better at staying under the radar than guys like Bill Laimbeer...

[tucker342]

He was a great player. Playing 19 years with one team is amazing...

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

When I was a puppy I used to thnk he was a class act now after all these years .....ugh....how wrong I was .

[JeffNights]

But is he better than Isiah Thomas? i dont really even think its close.....they both had great floor vision, both could pass, and both were tenecious...but the big difference is shooting, stockon never really been the go-to guy, Zeke was always the man to take the shot....and lets face it..

NBA TITLES

THomas :2
Stockon :0

thats a big stat...

[ACStrider]

It's sad for me to see Stockton go. He's really a player from a different era and a testament to longevity and dedication.

[Calis]

I say good riddance, he had a great career, but I despise Malone and him both, and will also agree they're a couple of the dirties players in the league.

Also being forced to reside so clue to the den of evil known as the Delta Center, I have to hear way too much about how great they are. Maybe after they both leave, and 40-50 years pass, I can stop this burning hatred of the Jazz.:)

[Swaggs]

Originally posted by JeffNights
But is he better than Isiah Thomas? i dont really even think its close.....they both had great floor vision, both could pass, and both were tenecious...but the big difference is shooting, stockon never really been the go-to guy, Zeke was always the man to take the shot....and lets face it..

NBA TITLES

THomas :2
Stockon :0

thats a big stat...

The other big difference was Jordan and Pippen in their prime at the same time as Stockton and Malone.

[tucker342]

Originally posted by Swaggs
The other big difference was Jordan and Pippen in their prime at the same time as Stockton and Malone.

good point...

[sterlingice]

I never bought the whole "dirtiest tandem in the league". I mean, c'mon, isn't this the same board who was agreeing heartily that Kobe pulling out a gun and shooting someone on the court wouldn't result in a foul. They got star treatment just like MJ, Charles, etc, but no worse than any of them.

SI

[Calis]

I believe with Stockton it has more to do with image than actually what he got away with. Of course all the big names get away with murder, but Stockton has the image of a clean cut, strictly fundamental player...and being a cheater just didn't fit with that.

And beside that fact, I really do think Malone IS more dirty than the others use mentioned. I guess that's all a matter of opinion though.

[sabotai]

I don't follow basketball much, so I'm sorry for the n00by question...

How did Stockton cheat?

[Anthony]

how many of you guys think Mark Jackson will pass Stockton as the all-time asissts record?

hard to believe this guy is #2 on the list. he passed Magic Johnson. yeesh!

it's sad to think of it, but if Magic never got the HIV and played all throug hthe early 90's there's not way Stockton would have topped that record. what a shame. i wanted Magic to keep that record the same reason why i don't want Malone to break Abdul Jabbar's scoring record. when you think all-time scoring Malone just doesn't seem right to me for some reason. MJ should have just stuck to basketball during the 90's and maybe we would have been talking about him breaking the record instead of Malone. how could the all-time scoring leader not have 1 championship?!?

[oykib]

Originally posted by sabotai
I don't follow basketball much, so I'm sorry for the n00by question...

How did Stockton cheat?

He would play for the foul rather than the shot. He went to the line an insane number of times for a guy who was so mall and passed so often.

Also he almost always got a friendly whistle because he was a hard-working, white ballplayer. That's in addition to being a 'supestar'. He got the favorable whistle on both ends even though he was notorious around the league for being a dirty player.

That goes for Malone too. But it happened to much lesser extent. Malone has gone to the foul line more than anyone else over the span of his career. But at least Malone was a dominating low post presence that teams had to be physical with. He was actually getting fouled a lot.

[sabotai]

"how could the all-time scoring leader not have 1 championship?!?"

Look at how many records Dan Marina has and he's never won the Super Bowl...

I've always found the "let's compare championship totals" argument on the worth of an invidual player in a team sport to be pretty...pathetic.

[oykib]

Originally posted by sabotai
"how could the all-time scoring leader not have 1 championship?!?"

Look at how many records Dan Marina has and he's never won the Super Bowl...

I've always found the "let's compare championship totals" argument on the worth of an invidual player in a team sport to be pretty...pathetic.

While that's true in Football, Baseball, and Hockey, it doesn't work as well in basketball. More often than not, the team with the best overall player wins in the NBA.

You still need support in basketball. But it's mainly the top player or two that determine a playoff series.

[astralhaze]

While this may seem like a copout, but he was dirty and a great player. Sure, he took dives, but no one can deny his talent and court-intelligence. A fine player, though dirty, and the NBA will miss him. No current player is anywhere near the true court general he was.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by oykib
Also he almost always got a friendly whistle because he was a hard-working, white ballplayer.

I am not trying to start a race riot here, but I don't think that him being white gave him many calls. This is a league filled with black guys that are superstars and very well liked and accepted. I don't think this league hands out foul based on race.

[oykib]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I am not trying to start a race riot here, but I don't think that him being white gave him many calls. This is a league filled with black guys that are superstars and very well liked and accepted. I don't think this league hands out foul based on race.

I said that it was in addition to him being a 'superstar'. I think he was a firt-ballot Hall of Famer ( not that it means a helluva lot in Basketball ).

Let's not kid ourselves. In the NBA, the amount that officials give you the favorable whistle increases as your level of stardom increases. And Stockton, as great as he was, was not the level of player that he is regarded as.

He's regarded as an all-time great. But I can think of four players at his position that were clearly better than him during his career.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Isaiah Thomas
3. Gary Payton
4. Jason Kidd

Kidd's a little iffy. To this point in their careers, Stockton was better. But if Kidd maintains this level he will clearly surpass him. But, of this group, only Magic got the same, or better, treatment than Stockton.

Actually, I admire Stockton. You have to like a guy who made himself a Hall of Fame basketball player when he was niether, tall, fast, or a naturally great shooter.

[The Afoci]

I agree, but I just think that the hard working tag got him more calls then him being white. But you make great points, he is maybe the 5th best pg of his era.

[korme]

Stockton was one of the most incredible players I have ever gotten the pleasure to watch.

[oykib]

Originally posted by Shorty3281
Stockton was one of the most incredible players I have ever gotten the pleasure to watch.

Really?!?

He was a great ballplayer. But I never felt awe when watching him. I don't recall anyone ever telling me they had to go to The Garden early to get good seats from the scalpers cause Stockton was coming to town.

This reminds me of a column the Sports Guy wrote about Cal Ripken, jr. Yes, he was great. But he waas never a guy that you just had to see. That doesn't necessarily make him less than players who are awe inspiring. But let's be honest in our evaluations of what he meant to the game.

[korme]

But he was different than Jordan, or Kobe, or Magic. The way he played the game was old-fashioned and for me it was nice to watch.. just his on-court smarts is amazing, I don't know how to explain it unless you've watched a lot of games of his.

[Swaggs]

Originally posted by oykib
I said that it was in addition to him being a 'superstar'. I think he was a firt-ballot Hall of Famer ( not that it means a helluva lot in Basketball ).

Let's not kid ourselves. In the NBA, the amount that officials give you the favorable whistle increases as your level of stardom increases. And Stockton, as great as he was, was not the level of player that he is regarded as.

He's regarded as an all-time great. But I can think of four players at his position that were clearly better than him during his career.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Isaiah Thomas
3. Gary Payton
4. Jason Kidd

Kidd's a little iffy. To this point in their careers, Stockton was better. But if Kidd maintains this level he will clearly surpass him. But, of this group, only Magic got the same, or better, treatment than Stockton.

Actually, I admire Stockton. You have to like a guy who made himself a Hall of Fame basketball player when he was niether, tall, fast, or a naturally great shooter.

I would have to argue with you on players 2-4 on this list. It is a pretty far stretch to say that they were all clearly better than Stockton. When you look at Stockton's career numbers, the only slight weakness you can find are no titles and lowish points per game. I think the titles have a lot to do with he and Malone's peak period being at the same time as those of Jordan/Pippen and Olajuwan. As for the points per game, consider that he played his entire career with one of the most prolific scorers in the history of the NBA in Malone. I don't think it is a stretch to imagine that if a lesser scorer than Malone played with Stockton, he would probably get 5-6 extra shots (with a career FG% of over 51%) a game and his career average would be between 18-20.

I think Isiah Thomas is the only player on that list that is in Stockton's class, as far as career quality and peak quality. I will not say that Stockton was better than Thomas, but I think anyone would have a tough time defending Thomas being significantly better than Stockton.

Payton is a great defender and good scorer, but I don't really think of him as a Hall of Fame player. Kidd will probably end up as one of the greats and has been better than Stockton the last few seasons, but he needs another 5-7 years before he becomes HoF caliber.

Just my two cents.

[sabotai]

"You still need support in basketball. But it's mainly the top player or two that determine a playoff series."

Yeah, I guess so. Since there's only 5 basketball players out there, and the starters play most of the game, then they'd be 1/5th of the team, while in other sports, it's much lower and 1 player isn't very likely to carry a team (with the possible exception of a hot goalie in hockey).

But still, like someone else pointed out...Jordan and Pippen (and sometimes Rodman).

Here's another question.

I do think there is a difference between being a dirty player and a cheater. TO me, a dirty player is someone who, although does follow the rules, pushes them as far as they will go. Take cheap shots, etc. While a cheater flat out breaks the rules.

Honestly, try to but bias and personal like/dislike for the guy aside. Was Stockton a dirty player, or was he a cheater?

[MrBug708]

Stockton has a great on court vision, probably one of the best in Basketball ever. He knew where his teammates were most of the time and was able to effectively dish them the ball. I think he is arguably one of the best PG's of all time, but in terms of ability, he was a decent player. He never excelled in anything other then passing. It would be a shame to see Marc Jackson pass his assist record, but I don't think it will happen.

I also don't think Stockton got the "stars" treatment from the ref. Same with Malone. Both of them were master's at the cheap subtle shot when the refs were not looking

[Swaggs]

Stockton is also the all time leader in steals, so it is probably unfair to just label him a great passer.

[oykib]

I think you're underestimating the refs awareness. Refs see most of what happens on the court. That's especially true in the NBA, where there are three guys running all over the court. Refs just have to determine when to blow the whistle. They could blow the whistle every time down the court. Of course they don't.

They have a certain amount of discretion on when to blow the whistle. That's why the NBA seems (is) so shady.

[oykib]

Stockton was a great passer. But don't you guys think that Payton and Kidd would have put up the same assist numbers, or at least very close, had they spent their careers with Malone.

I still say that if the guys on my list were to come out in the same draft, Stockton would go last. That's even if they knew the exact development path of these players.

[tucker342]

If they called the foul everytime there was one, there would be a foul on every play down the court.