Selig is laying down the hammer

[Easy Mac]

This could go in the regular MLB tread, but he's going after ARod and Braun

MLB seeks to suspend A-Rod, Braun - ESPN (http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9301536&src=desktop)

[Jas_lov]

The players union will fight it. There's no positive test.

[Danny]

I hope they get 100 games each.

[Danny]

Id like to see the punishments changed in general. 100 games first offense, second offense you are out of the league.

[MizzouRah]

Kick A-Roid out already and take his money.

[Danny]

As much as I didn't care for Bonds, I would have hated Arod having the HR record even more.

[rowech]

The players union will fight it. There's no positive test.

Best interest of baseball clause. Done.

[Blackadar]

Best interest of baseball clause. Done.

For all of about 5 seconds until he gets his ass hauled into court. They tried that already with Jason Grimsley when Arizona tried to terminate his contract.

However, that doesn't mean that Selig can't suspend them. I just don't think he can do it under that clause.

[McLovin]

The players union will fight it. There's no positive test.


...But I read it in Jose Conseco's book.

[JPhillips]

This is the first bid in the negotiation. Eventually they'll pare it all down to far fewer games and/or fewer players, but you always start high.

[Buccaneer]

As much as I didn't care for Bonds, I would have hated Arod having the HR record even more.

Still feel the other way around since I don't think Rodriguez would've done it for racial and/or envy reasons.

[mauchow]

If there is some sort of positive test you have to retroactively make Braun's offense last year count as one too. What's the next offense after the 50 game suspension that Braun should have gotten?

[molson]

Best interest of baseball clause. Done.

They don't need that, the drug policy deals with use and possession, not just positive tests.

http://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

"A Player who tests positive for a Performance Enhancing Substance, or otherwise violates the Program through the use or possession of a Performance Enhancing Substance, will be subject to the discipline set forth below."

Then after listing all of the types of evidence that can be used to establish a violation, (positive drug tests, convictions, failure to compete required treatment, possession of or selling various types of drugs), there's a catch-all provision that allows discipline for "just cause" for any violation of section 2, which is the part of the policy that prohibits the use or possession of certain banned substances.

Then there's two appellate processes, one for people who challenge their positive drug tests, and another for those who are suspended for reasons other than a positive test.

The length of the suspensions aren't negotiable or appealable, it's 50 days for the first offense, 100 days for the second, period. There's different fixed suspension lengths for stimulants, and for failing to complete required treatment, and for convictions. There could be a question of whether this counts as one or two offense though.

[rowech]

They don't need that, the drug policy deals with use and possession, not just positive tests.

http://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

"A Player who tests positive for a Performance Enhancing Substance, or otherwise violates the Program through the use or possession of a Performance Enhancing Substance, will be subject to the discipline set forth below."

Then after listing all of the types of evidence that can be used to establish a violation, (positive drug tests, convictions, failure to compete required treatment, possession of or selling various types of drugs), there's a catch-all provision that allows discipline for "just cause" for any violation of section 2, which is the part of the policy that prohibits the use or possession of certain banned substances.

Then there's two appellate processes, one for people who challenge their positive drug tests, and another for those who are suspended for reasons other than a positive test.

The length of the suspensions aren't negotiable or appealable, it's 50 days for the first offense, 100 days for the second, period. There's different fixed suspension lengths for stimulants, and for failing to complete required treatment, and for convictions. There could be a question of whether this counts as one or two offense though.

Even better

[Shkspr]

If there is some sort of positive test you have to retroactively make Braun's offense last year count as one too. What's the next offense after the 50 game suspension that Braun should have gotten?

No, you don't "have" to make it count, because it was a 72 hour old sample tested under conditions meant for samples less than 24 hours old. Medically, scientifically, there is absolutely no reason to trust the results of such a test, particularly when the results of the non-controlled sample showed levels that have never been approached before or since.

Sample was botched; test results can't be trusted. End of sentence. The only reason this wasn't the reason the test was thrown out is because it never got to that point - the improper handling according to the exhaustively codified set of procedures in the MLB drug policy agreement was enough to get it tossed on its own. But medically? Braun's test was informationally null.

[SirFozzie]

"Biogenesis founder Tony Bosch agreed to cooperate with investigators from MLB after months of trying to verify if the players received performance-enhancing drugs from Bosch. Investigators have had records for more than a month that named the players."

If it has names of drugs and schedules, that's game, set and match.

[IlliniCub]

Haha reminds me of when Bonds was close to breaking the record and so many people were saying they hope someone "clean" like A-ROD breaks it one day

[molson]

No, you don't "have" to make it count, because it was a 72 hour old sample tested under conditions meant for samples less than 24 hours old. Medically, scientifically, there is absolutely no reason to trust the results of such a test, particularly when the results of the non-controlled sample showed levels that have never been approached before or since.

Sample was botched; test results can't be trusted. End of sentence. The only reason this wasn't the reason the test was thrown out is because it never got to that point - the improper handling according to the exhaustively codified set of procedures in the MLB drug policy agreement was enough to get it tossed on its own. But medically? Braun's test was informationally null.

I know we have many many posts about this in last year's MLB thread, but it was a close call and a split decision among the arbiters if I remember right. The policy DID allow drug samples to be that old under certain conditions (like if there was no fedex facility open within 30 miles of where the test was taken or something). But, I think it's definitely true that they can't go back and count that as a failure no matter what evidence comes out now, because Braun beat it under the policy, end of story. But as far as factual guilt, the most damning thing to be is that Braun's PR excuse was not that an old sample caused a negative test to turn positive, but that the handler intentionally tampered with the sample to frame him. The former would seem to be the better lie, if it was scientifically possible, but he went with the latter.

[MrBug708]

Haha reminds me of when Bonds was close to breaking the record and so many people were saying they hope someone "clean" like A-ROD breaks it one day

Most people would have rather seen anyone other than Bonds

[Crapshoot]

Best interest of baseball clause. Done.

BS. Its owners who signed up to a system, and now are trying to get around it. Typical bullshit grandstanding from Selig and cronies.

[molson]

Haha reminds me of when Bonds was close to breaking the record and so many people were saying they hope someone "clean" like A-ROD breaks it one day

I hate A-rod, but I also want the Yankees to be stuck with that entire contract for the next 4 1/2 seasons.

[cougarfreak]

BS. Its owners who signed up to a system, and now are trying to get around it. Typical bullshit grandstanding from Selig and cronies.

How are they trying to get around it? The rule clearly states possession or use.....that is the system. That's not getting around it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

First offense is association, second offense is lying about it. Don't need any 72 hour sample to go that route.

One source familiar with the case said the commissioner's office might seek 100-game suspensions for Rodriguez, Braun and other players, the penalty for a second doping offense. The argument, the source said, is the players' connection to Bosch constitutes one offense, and previous statements to MLB officials denying any such connection or the use of PEDs constitute another.

[JPhillips]

I wonder what happens to Grandal. His 50 game suspension is presumably from the Bosch lab. Will he get hit twice for the same offense?

[lungs]

This is much less upsetting to me compared to the last time we went through this whole song and dance. The Brewers are going nowhere and I have no philosophical problem with PEDs (while that opinion puts me in the minority).

[MrBug708]

I want to say things about Braun, but Lungs is a good trade partner

[lungs]

I want to say things about Braun, but Lungs is a good trade partner

Go ahead, remember Braun became such a drag on me I put him on waivers and was thankful somebody claimed him. :)

Honestly, I understand the hate for Braun. If somebody were to use the words 'arrogant prick' to describe him, I'd have no argument. His arrogance and prickishness don't bother me because he wears the uniform of my favorite team.

[MrBug708]

I wanted to say nice things so you can give me Wardle

[RomaGoth]

I hate A-rod, but I also want the Yankees to be stuck with that entire contract for the next 4 1/2 seasons.

I always find these kinds of remarks humorous, like it's your money that is being spent. I hate A-fraud and am a Yanks fan and would love to see him go down for this. I also don't care if the Yankees are stuck with the contract; if they couldn't afford it then they shouldn't have signed him in the first place. It's their own damn fault.

Boston got lucky with their bad contracts in that they found a stupid ass owner willing to take them on.

[RomaGoth]

I also enjoyed the title of this thread, since we all know that Bud Selig has baseball's best interest at heart and wants a nice, clean game. Right.

[molson]

I always find these kinds of remarks humorous, like it's your money that is being spent. I hate A-fraud and am a Yanks fan and would love to see him go down for this. I also don't care if the Yankees are stuck with the contract; if they couldn't afford it then they shouldn't have signed him in the first place. It's their own damn fault.

Boston got lucky with their bad contracts in that they found a stupid ass owner willing to take them on.

I don't care about the money, per se, I just would like to see it hanging around the Yankees payroll forever, complicating their roster decisions. I know they can withstand it better than most, but that's still a big meatball.

[MrBug708]

I always find these kinds of remarks humorous, like it's your money that is being spent. I hate A-fraud and am a Yanks fan and would love to see him go down for this. I also don't care if the Yankees are stuck with the contract; if they couldn't afford it then they shouldn't have signed him in the first place. It's their own damn fault.

Boston got lucky with their bad contracts in that they found a stupid ass owner willing to take them on.

Two of the three have been pretty solid, tho Crawford just got hurt.

It's just money.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Still feel the other way around since I don't think Rodriguez would've done it for racial and/or envy reasons.

A-Rod did it to get laid.

[Swaggs]

Some of the non-A-Rod or Braun names being thrown around:Looking at the potentially suspended Biogenesis players | HardballTalk (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/04/looking-at-the-potentially-suspended-biogenesis-players/)

Melky Cabrera (OF Blue Jays)
Bartolo Colon (RHP Athletics)
Yasmani Grandal (C Padres)
Nelson Cruz (OF Rangers)
Jhonny Peralta (SS Tigers)
Everth Cabrera (SS Padres)
Francisco Cervelli (C Yankees)
Jesus Montero (C-DH Mariners)
Fernando Martinez (OF Astros)
Fautino De Los Santos (RHP free agent)
Jordan Norberto (LHP free agent)
Cesar Puello (OF Mets)

Gio Gonzalez (LHP Nationals) and Robinson Cano (2B Yankees) mentioned as having loose connections to Biogenesis, but unlikely to be suspended.

[panerd]

I had a substantial fantasy deal brewing with Everth Cabrera and now the other owner is acting like this 50 game thing is certain. Damn major league baseball! :)

[Buccaneer]

I had hoped that after 2005-2007, the Steroids Era would be fully over and numbers did prove that somewhat; but I guess not. :(

[BrianD]

Go ahead, remember Braun became such a drag on me I put him on waivers and was thankful somebody claimed him. :)

Honestly, I understand the hate for Braun. If somebody were to use the words 'arrogant prick' to describe him, I'd have no argument. His arrogance and prickishness don't bother me because he wears the uniform of my favorite team.

He does make a weekly trip to the local Children's Hospital when the Brewers are in town. He may still be an arrogant prick, but he is good for the community.

[Tekneek]

PEDs are in every aspect of life. Every sport. Every industry. Some legal, some illegal.

[ISiddiqui]

I have no philosophical problem with PEDs (while that opinion puts me in the minority).

I'll join you on that minority bench... hmmm, maybe there was a better way to say that.

[molson]

PEDs are in every aspect of life. Every sport. Every industry. Some legal, some illegal.

Some banned per agreement that players agreed to, some not.

It's not a moral or philosophical issue, it's just against the rules.

[Tekneek]

Some banned per agreement that players agreed to, some not.

It's not a moral or philosophical issue, it's just against the rules.

True. Some people get outraged about this kind of stuff.

MLB will do what it does. Doesn't really matter to me. I'll still watch the few teams I care about. Life will go on. Lifetime ban, 100 games, 50 games, 10, or none. It won't matter much in the big scheme of things.

For each current MLB player suspended/banned, another guy gets his chance.

[lungs]

He does make a weekly trip to the local Children's Hospital when the Brewers are in town. He may still be an arrogant prick, but he is good for the community.

I should clarify, he's mostly just an arrogant prick on the baseball field where people get their impressions of him. I agree he does a ton for the community.

[molson]

Honestly, I understand the hate for Braun. If somebody were to use the words 'arrogant prick' to describe him, I'd have no argument. His arrogance and prickishness don't bother me because he wears the uniform of my favorite team.

Everybody has to root for unlikeable players if you're a fan of any team long enough. I rooted for Manny Ramirez for 8 years. He did steroids and ALSO shoved elderly men to the ground and faked injuries. Whatever. I think the only thing I'd have an conscious issue with is child molesters, violent criminals, and animal abusers. And there doesn't tend to be a lot of those on major sports teams.

[lungs]

Everybody has to root for unlikeable players if you're a fan of any team long enough. I rooted for Manny Ramirez for 8 years. He did steroids and ALSO shoved elderly men to the ground and faked injuries. Whatever. I think the only thing I'd have an conscious issue with is child molesters, violent criminals, and animal abusers. And there doesn't tend to be a lot of those on major sports teams.

I've got domestic abuse covered with K Rod. One of my childhood heroes, Paul Molitor, abused cocaine. Crossing over into over sports, I've always been a fan of some of the more disliked players. Especially being a Dallas Cowboys fan.

I was able to experience the hate for Braun firsthand at Dodger Stadium about a month ago (talked about it in the MLB thread). It was all in good fun with the people around me anyway. Nothing to get upset about. Nobody dumped a beer on me when I cheered a Braun home run.

Like I said with my original post in this thread, I'd be a lot more uptight about this if the Brewers had a snowball's chance in hell to do anything this year (and given the state of their farm system, next year too). No obsessing over the arguments this time around for me :)

[Glengoyne]

I hate A-rod, but I also want the Yankees to be stuck with that entire contract for the next 4 1/2 seasons.


This.

edit: Well I don't really hate A-Rod. I do root against the Yankees every chance I get though.

[panerd]

I had a substantial fantasy deal brewing with Everth Cabrera and now the other owner is acting like this 50 game thing is certain. Damn major league baseball! :)

Reverse problem. Other manager accepted the trade without even mentioning the possible suspension. Everything I have read/heard today thinks if there are suspensions they won't happen this year anyways but I wonder if he knew and didn't care or if he is unaware. Don't want to make a trade under false pretenses even though a lot of my friends seem to be of the "buyer beware" school of thought.

[EagleFan]

They need to do whatever they can to eliminate this problem (as best possible).

For those saying they have no issue with it there are a few factors to address, then let me know how you feel:

1) What does it say to the kids trying to get into the game? That they need to start doing illegal substances just so they can get a chance to play?

2) What are you going to say when players start dropping dead in their 40's and 50's because their hearts can't take it anymore? People are already saying football needs to do more to protect the players so they have a life after football and some of the same people that say they are fine with juicing have said that football needs to do more. One word, hypocrite.

3) It takes jobs away from legitimate players that should be in the majors and who have enough respect for themselves that they won't juice. That speedy player that may hit a handful of homeruns will be overlooked for the guy who is juicing and will hit 15-20 homeruns.

4) That special non juicing player will now be just a face in the crowd. That player that could consistently hit 40+ homeruns a season naturally without juicing will now just be a face in the crowd of 40+ homerun guys.

5) Homeruns are an event. More homeruns waters them down and no longer makes them anything special. It's like if you love eating brownies and have them once in a while they are great. Have one at every meal for a year and they will no longer be special to you.

[Toddzilla]

Do you lay down a hammer or bring down the hammer? Saying Selig is "laying down the hammer" sounds like he's decided not to come down hard on the cheaters and instead take the hammer and lay it down.

:)

[JonInMiddleGA]

1) What does it say to the kids trying to get into the game? That they need to start doing illegal substances just so they can get a chance to play?

Since I've seen it (let's say "strongly suspected") at the HS level, I'd say that it's almost a foregone conclusion for a fair portion of those with potential to play at a higher level.

If you wanted to start an outrage in the U.S., piss test every HS athlete in every sport, see what the results are.

edit to add: No, I'm not suggesting that, just a random hyperbole. But if it weren't for the enormous cost, I'd be dead f'n serious.

[murrayyyyy]

Some banned per agreement that players agreed to, some not.

It's not a moral or philosophical issue, it's just against the rules.

Or just be the NFL when they went on strike and say it's a major issue in the collective bargaining agreement... And still don't have rules against them 2 years later...

You have a QB who had five neck surgeries and a RB who blew out his entire knee as the top 2 guys a year later in the MVP voting and Ray Lewis comes back two weeks after his elbow disappearing.

The drugs will always be ahead of the tests... Also when is Andy Pettite going to serve his suspension...

[Vince, Pt. II]

5) Homeruns are an event. More homeruns waters them down and no longer makes them anything special. It's like if you love eating brownies and have them once in a while they are great. Have one at every meal for a year and they will no longer be special to you.

This is a silly argument. Home runs never meant more than the year McGwire and Sosa were chasing 61. You can't hit enough home runs to water them down.

I agree with the rest of the stuff you say, though.

[EagleFan]

This is a silly argument. Home runs never meant more than the year McGwire and Sosa were chasing 61. You can't hit enough home runs to water them down.

I agree with the rest of the stuff you say, though.

Sure you can, when an entire lineup has 20+ homerun guys it most certainly does.

[Tekneek]

This is just capitalism. They are making a risk/reward calculation and deciding to take more risk for potentially greater rewards.

This is different than football where ordinary plays between ordinary players can result in brain injuries.

[Easy Mac]

Sure you can, when an entire lineup has 20+ homerun guys it most certainly does.

Yeah, those '65 Braves were an abomination.

[ISiddiqui]

Since I think all Braves teams are an abomination, agreed ;)

[sterlingice]

Haven't heard much since this story broke initially. Is the word that suspensions are still being prepared or is this now in a bit of doubt?

Oh, and the laughably power-less Royals didn't have a player on the list. Lowest home run total in the major including a league full of teams where the pitcher's bat. Then again, the Cubs pitching staff has more home runs than all but a couple of Royals...

Haha reminds me of when Bonds was close to breaking the record and so many people were saying they hope someone "clean" like A-ROD breaks it one day

I was one of those. Oops.

SI