AFGM-->BTS (Francis Cole/OOTPDev Football Game Project)

[Marc Vaughan]

Fran is someone I've literally known for years, he used to work at SI and is a very passionate Football fan ... he wrote an (American) Football Sim at university which was sadly stolen (literally) when his place was burgled, he's currently writing a new sim and has started blogging about developing such a thing and I thought a fair few people here might be interested in it.

Football General Manager (http://footballgeneralmanager.wordpress.com/)

[FLC28]

Hi,

I am Francis. I'd be delighted to answer any questions people have here, or any questions in the comments section in the blog.

I remember I used to have an account here many a year ago, but unfortunately I couldn't find it, so I created a new one :)

Francis

[EagleFan]

If it's an American football sim you might want to lose the word match.

[FLC28]

Thanks. The word "Match" isn't used anywhere in the game.
But not using it in the blog either is a good idea. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Great news - it's not exactly SI writing one, but spiritually I suppose it'll be somewhat close!

[Eaglesfan27]

I will be following with great interest.

[FLC28]

Thank you Torgo.
If anyone wants me to write about a specific area in a future blog post let me know.

The next article I plan will be about the use of historical data in the game (e.g. want to know what transactions your team made on 23rd Oct 2008? No Problem)

[DaddyTorgo]

Where can I preorder (he asks, not even joking)?

[markprior22]

I'll be watching too. Best of luck!!

[FLC28]

If anyone is interested I have posted another update to the blog.
This post focuses on the (real life) historical data in the game:

Football GM | The Development of the 'Football GM' Game (http://footballgeneralmanager.wordpress.com/)

Stats History - The stats the player has produced throughout his career up to the start point of the game.
Transaction History - Every transaction the player has been involved in.
Injury history - The player's past injuries.

As always, if anyone has any questions or comments I'll do my best to answer :)

Thank you.

[Apathetic Lurker]

The UI looks great but hows the engine coming along?

And yes, I will buy it.....

[Antmeister]

Okay I am very interested in this after seeing the blog, but I do have a question. Since you have taken the route to base the engine after player movements, is there still a good chance this will be a multiplayer game on its first iteration? And if this is the case, will this most likely mean to fast sim a game will take significantly longer to run? If you can nail the statistical engine first, that would make me excited for the other portions of the game. This and a good financial AI would be great. The other stuff would be icing.

[FLC28]

The game engine (which calculates) fixtures is coming along nicely.

It's at the stage where it produces realistic scores/stats etc.

However, what may take quite a few more weeks (worse case longer?) is that I need to make the AI much more intelligent when it is playing against the human.
As the user can call the plays (if you wish) is it possible to find a play or a combination of plays which produce significant yardage and keep doing that. I need to make the AI notice these trends, and counter act accordingly.

Other computer games (Madden was like this last time I played it) accomplished this task simply by making the defence (if you are on offence) psychic and "know" what play you have called so they can call the best defence. I don't wish FGM to be like that, ideally I want the opposition to look at your play calling trends and the situation and work out what to do that way, which is why it may take a while to code.

[FLC28]

Since you have taken the route to base the engine after player movements, is there still a good chance this will be a multiplayer game on its first iteration

Unfortunately multi-player will not be in the first version. However the underlying code supports it, so I would say in future versions it is very likely :)
I know that news will disappoint some, but unfortunately the time required to make it MP is too much at this time when I am still doing everything else.


And if this is the case, will this most likely mean to fast sim a game will take significantly longer to run

One fixture currently takes just under 2 seconds to calculate (depending on your computer obviously).
I hope to do a few things which may make it a touch quicker, though it's (unfortunately) probably never going to be at the stage where one year takes 2 mins or something like that.

There is currently an option to leave the computer to sim an entire regular season, and I'll add more options to sim the pre-season, post season, half a season etc when I get the time.

[fortheglory]

Will this be available on the mac platform?

[FLC28]

Not the first version, second one I'd say quite likely as I wrote it from the start with porting it to Mac in mind.

edit: My first task for that to happen is to buy a Mac ;)

[SegRat]

Looking forward to this.

[BYU 14]

Very interesting. Has that old XOR look in a more modern presentation. If the game engine is as good as XOR with management features I would be VERY happy.

[Antmeister]

Unfortunately multi-player will not be in the first version. However the underlying code supports it, so I would say in future versions it is very likely :)
I know that news will disappoint some, but unfortunately the time required to make it MP is too much at this time when I am still doing everything else.


Not a disappointment in my view. I was just curious. I like this approach because if you can make a single player experience competitive, then that will drastically help with a multiplayer game further down the road. Okay you have me excited for another American sim on the market. Looking forward to the progress you make on this.

[Izulde]

I haven't read the blogs, but will the first version include expansion and/or customizable league sizes?

[FLC28]

Unfortunately not. My aim at the moment is to make it realistic as possible, so all the proper rules/regulations/teams/players etc.

I'll see in the future how much interest there is the fantasy side of it :)

[Sweed]

Thanks MarcV for posting this and FLC28 coming here to post updates. Very interested to see how this turns out.

[PilotMan]

OMGOMGOMG, I have literally been waiting for years for something like this! Certainly exciting, and I'll be there to support it too. Good Luck!

[Huckleberry]

I look forward to the college version.

Seriously. But also seriously, thank you for posting here.

[FLC28]

I look forward to the college version.

I've already thought extensively about that. IF (and we are not talking anytime soon) that happens I would (in an ideal world) like to make it the same game.
The only technical thing standing in the way would be if processing pro and college games would make the game too slow for the user to put up with.

[FBPro]

Really interested in this and will follow it closely, any idea when it will be ready for consumer use?

[Super Ugly]

Good luck!

[Julio Riddols]

I'll chime in to say 2 seconds a game sim speed is fine, IMO. Since a football season is only 17 weeks, sim times really aren't that big of a deal as long as we aren't sitting around for a minute per game or so. I'd gladly sit through the time it would take to sim college and pro if it were an option I could turn off a league startup depending on what kind of league I want to play.

Count me in the excited bunch. Things are getting good for football simmers.

[MizzouRah]

Interested... will be following!

[KWhit]

This looks great. I love the game presentation!

[Carman Bulldog]

Wow, that injury history really encapsulates what my vision has always been for a football sim. That right there has me really excited.

I'm looking forward to more posts, particularly about how the entire draft and ore-draft process works.

[jaygr]

Very much looking forward to this. Is there a general idea for a release time? Late this year? Sometime next year? Longer?

[FLC28]

If it's longer than sometime next year I'd be very disappointed!

I would hope that I can give you all at least some kind of demo or something to play with by Christmas (even if it's only being able to play the pre-season or something).

If anyone would like help test it at some point that would be great.

Thanks everyone.

[DaddyTorgo]

If it's longer than sometime next year I'd be very disappointed!

I would hope that I can give you all at least some kind of demo or something to play with by Christmas (even if it's only being able to play the pre-season or something).

If anyone would like help test it at some point that would be great.

Thanks everyone.

In for testing (as I'm sure pretty much everyone here will be).

[MalcPow]

I will definitely be following. The smaller number of games in American football has always led me to believe it would be a fantastic fit for the general pace and flow of an FM-style game.

[MJ4H]

IN FOR TESTING

[digamma]

Completely agree.

Additionally, I've always kind of poo-pooed a combined pro/college environment, but the thought of it yesterday, in an FM type format, got me pretty excited. I realize it's a long way off, but I'll be watching.

[FBPro]

I'm in for testing as well.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Im in for testing....but more in for buying

[EagleFan]

I think there are a wealth of potential testers here.

Will be watching this as it progresses and hoping for the best.


(I still dream of an FM style football game, FBPro could have become that but sadly that is just a fond memory.... hard to believe it's been that long since FBPro already)

[Balldog]

Very interested in how this evolves

[Julio Riddols]

Would definitely help test this as well.

[MizzouRah]

Just want to say.. I REALLY like all of your ideas and the way the game is laid out!

[PilotMan]

Yeah, who wouldn't love to test this out? I know I would!

[FLC28]

A new (brief) article on the trouble between making the game as realistic as possible, and also making it fun for the user to play.

Football GM | The Development of the 'Football GM' Game (http://footballgeneralmanager.wordpress.com/)

If anyone has any ideas for what they would like to read about in the future let me know. I'm not sure if I should go down a more technical route on how things are done or not.

Thanks everyone :)

[BYU 14]

Enjoying the articles and really looking forward to this.

[MizzouRah]

Enjoying the articles and really looking forward to this.

+1

Sanchez needs a butt fumble stat. :D

[mtolson]

The videos and blogs are awesome. Count me in for any testing help needed.

[DaddyTorgo]

I can't believe the alpha engine - that's awesome. I hope you don't over-simplify injured reserve and contracts too much. There's no doubt a balance there.

I bet this is something where if it went up on kickstarter you'd be flooded - if you needed funds for additional resources/staff or whatever.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

you asked for suggestions on articles . I would be very interested to see how gameplanning is handled. also would be interested in league customizability and stat customizability ie can different eras be replicated and is it possible to win with vastly different offensive and defensive strategies. I gotta say, all of this is looking great! very excited to see more screenshots etc

[DaddyTorgo]

you asked for suggestions on articles . I would be very interested to see how gameplanning is handled. also would be interested in league customizability and stat customizability ie can different eras be replicated and is it possible to win with vastly different offensive and defensive strategies. I gotta say, all of this is looking great! very excited to see more screenshots etc

We should all be having this convo on the website to drive traffic there/increase the future profitability of the game for Francis. :D

[FLC28]

I bet this is something where if it went up on kickstarter you'd be flooded

As this is unlicensed (as most games of this ilk are) I'm kind of stuck in between not wanting it to be so famous EA/NFL shut it down. But obviously on the other hand I hope to make it my living, so need for it to be well known :D

Looking at games like OOTP, and even FOF here it seems that stats/player names can be used. Team names seem to be an issue a lot of people have talked about to me, but as far as I know OOTP/FOF/etc use real team names.
I think worst case scenario I would just have to call the team by the town name and miss off the nickname.

[FLC28]

I would be very interested to see how gameplanning is handled.

Great question, thank you.
If the user doesn't choose to call the plays, then the AI does. The AI calls the plays in the same way (though obviously calls the players based on the strengths of the team involved, Packers are going to pass more because they have Rodgers etc, a team facing a top RB is going to defend the run more than if they were playing a team with a rubbish RB etc).

Currently (and I think this will remain for the first version) there are no coaches in the game, so I can't say this team prefers a (e.g)west-coast type of offence as I don't have any data to support that.

When coaches enter the game they will have the stats to say what type of offence/defence they prefer and then I think I can expand extensive game planning a lot more.
I hope that answers your question :)

[DaddyTorgo]

As this is unlicensed (as most games of this ilk are) I'm kind of stuck in between not wanting it to be so famous EA/NFL shut it down. But obviously on the other hand I hope to make it my living, so need for it to be well known :D

Looking at games like OOTP, and even FOF here it seems that stats/player names can be used. Team names seem to be an issue a lot of people have talked about to me, but as far as I know OOTP/FOF/etc use real team names.
I think worst case scenario I would just have to call the team by the town name and miss of the nickname.

Yeah - if I recall (although I'm sure others will know better - talk to Gary Gorski of Wolverine or the OOTP guys), that's exactly it. Make a messed-up nickname and then just make the nickname files (and the graphics for logos etc) user-editable.

[FLC28]

and stat customizability ie can different eras be replicated

Another great question.

I have not thought a great deal on this, though the game was setup from the start so that if in the future I want to have historic seasons it's already kind of setup for that*

I think (I should say I hope), I can (mainly)achieve this by altering the attributes of the players/the ratio of plays called/the rules rather than the Match Engine/Fixture Engine internals it self.

I have done a few stuff on College already, and (forgetting the rule changes from NFL/NCAA) that can mainly be done by giving the players a lot lower attributes, rather than changing the engine itself.

Hopefully that makes some sense!

*Any data prior 2000 will need to be done for historical leagues before 2000, and the NFL divisions changed in 2002 (off the top of my head, due to the Houston expansion?), so I'd have to re-do the algorithm which creates schedules for a league prior 2002.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Thanks for answering the questions! Looking forward to this one.

[ColtCrazy]

Looks astounding. Between this and the upcoming FM, I foresee lots of late nights in my future.

[Tim Tellean]

Yeah - if I recall (although I'm sure others will know better - talk to Gary Gorski of Wolverine or the OOTP guys), that's exactly it. Make a messed-up nickname and then just make the nickname files (and the graphics for logos etc) user-editable.

"Wolverine Studios, in compliance with the federal Lanham Act, makes no claim of any endorsement of this product by any entity. Fair use of player names has been outlined in the judgment in the case of C.B.C. Distribution and Marketing Inc. v. Major League Baseball Advanced Media and Major League
Baseball Players’ Association, United States District Court, Eastern Division of Missouri, 2006."

This was WS legal notice that we used to show the relevant court case.
You can use a player name and/or city name but not a likeness or team name. "Dallas" is ok, "Dallas Cowboys" is not.

[FLC28]

I'll have to get in touch with Markus, as OOTP does use the full names (e.g. Texas Rangers), so I wonder how he does it :)

Thanks for all the comments all.

[Dutch]

Good luck, looks great.

Now about those pesky game engine designs, that was no doubt a lot of hard work at SI (is that still right to say?) by people that know football, so getting that level of detail in American Football will be extremely tough.

Things to consider that we Americans know intimately well.

The position specific player development model from rookie to superstar to decline and then retirement.

The importance of each player of the field from QB to Punter.

The cause and effects of having an aggressive offensive gameplan or an aggressive defensive gameplan.

The differences between a 3-step, 5-step, and 7-step drop back by the quarterback....(short, quick pass; standard pro passing; more check-down or long ball opportunities).

The ability to have good lineman and tactics to pick up blitzes and allow QBs to scramble or step up in the pocket to gain additional time.

The value of a heavyweight tackling LB (MLB) vs a lightweight coverage/blitzing OLB. Too much weight and you start to open up the middle of the field passing lanes....too little weight and those big bruising RB's can start to wear out that defense.

There are just so many options to think about....I'm sure the same is said about football (soccer).

Anyway, pick some areas of the game to really tighten down and don't tackle it all at once and I think you'll be on to something one day.

I know Jim focuses on making sure the stats were legit and player development modeling and those two things sure make it realistic in appearance. But there really isn't a whole lot of "football strategy" in Jim's games which you might be able to lock down better.

[FLC28]

The only thing on that list which hasn't been done is the aggressive game plan stuff.

The 3-5-7 drop back (and how well the QB does it) was one if the very first things I did :)

[Dutch]

I look forward to it, no doubt. :)

[MizzouRah]

I'll have to get in touch with Markus, as OOTP does use the full names (e.g. Texas Rangers), so I wonder how he does it :)

Thanks for all the comments all.

OOTP doesn't use them.. IE.. they have members do that as a "mod" which is legal.

[Desnudo]

A new (brief) article on the trouble between making the game as realistic as possible, and also making it fun for the user to play.

Football GM | The Development of the 'Football GM' Game (http://footballgeneralmanager.wordpress.com/)

If anyone has any ideas for what they would like to read about in the future let me know. I'm not sure if I should go down a more technical route on how things are done or not.

Thanks everyone :)

I can appreciate that. I enjoy sims mostly for the career development aspect.

[FLC28]

A quick article on the different Color Schemes in Football GM.
Thanks everyone!

Color Schemes | Football GM (http://footballgeneralmanager.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/color-schemes/)

[bhlloy]

One of the fun things about football (moreso than any other sport I can think of) is the aspect of finding diamonds in the rough, some of which can become some of the biggest stars in the game. IMO it's something FOF never really modeled, even with random boom/bust. Are you hoping to model that with training camp and a large number of undrafted FA every year - the reason I ask is the Jets salary cap screenshot makes me hope you are (Vidal Hazelton sighting!)

[FLC28]

The offSeason roster size will be 90, allowing you (and the AI sides) to sign lots of UFA!

One of the main things I plan to help you in the regard of finding those "diamonds in the rough" is the scouting, namely that the attributes you see on a player's screen isn't actually his "proper" attributes (especially for players which are 'unknown'), it's your perception of him.

In game terms if you do no scouting on a college player, perhaps you just have a try-out, the attributes you think the player has could be very differently to a team which scouted the player lots and lots.

I'll talk about scouting lots more in a future article.

[AlexB]

The offSeason roster size will be 90, allowing you (and the AI sides) to sign lots of UFA!

One of the main things I plan to help you in the regard of finding those "diamonds in the rough" is the scouting, namely that the attributes you see on a player's screen isn't actually his "proper" attributes (especially for players which are 'unknown'), it's your perception of him.

In game terms if you do no scouting on a college player, perhaps you just have a try-out, the attributes you think the player has could be very differently to a team which scouted the player lots and lots.

I'll talk about scouting lots more in a future article.

This sounds very exciting for me.

I have always had hopes of an FM style game, whether it be football or football if get what I mean, where first scouting tells you the obvious such as pace, strength, etc, and maybe a wide range for attributes like QB accuracy, catching, hole recognition etc. then as you scout more and more, these more subjective ratings get whittled down to a more accurate range/number. This sounds like it is pretty close to that.

Put me down as more interested all of a sudden

[SplitPersonality1]

Just found this. Looks great so far. In for testing as well.

[bhlloy]

The offSeason roster size will be 90, allowing you (and the AI sides) to sign lots of UFA!

One of the main things I plan to help you in the regard of finding those "diamonds in the rough" is the scouting, namely that the attributes you see on a player's screen isn't actually his "proper" attributes (especially for players which are 'unknown'), it's your perception of him.

In game terms if you do no scouting on a college player, perhaps you just have a try-out, the attributes you think the player has could be very differently to a team which scouted the player lots and lots.

I'll talk about scouting lots more in a future article.

This is exactly what I'd hoped to hear, very excited about this

[Markus Heinsohn]

Good luck with the project Fran :) Greetings from Germany!

Cheers,
Markus

[Desnudo]

The offSeason roster size will be 90, allowing you (and the AI sides) to sign lots of UFA!

One of the main things I plan to help you in the regard of finding those "diamonds in the rough" is the scouting, namely that the attributes you see on a player's screen isn't actually his "proper" attributes (especially for players which are 'unknown'), it's your perception of him.

In game terms if you do no scouting on a college player, perhaps you just have a try-out, the attributes you think the player has could be very differently to a team which scouted the player lots and lots.

I'll talk about scouting lots more in a future article.

Are you planning to have coach ability impact player ceiling?

[FLC28]

Are you planning to have coach ability impact player ceiling?

Currently (due to time) I don't plan to have coaches in the first version. However when are in they should do something like this.

Now, if a coach can (on a technical low level basis) adjust the ceiling of a player, or simply allow the player to reach a level that no-one could have seen considering where the players started is a matter which needs careful consideration. There are pros and cons for each argument. :)

[FLC28]

I've had a few PMs and emails about this, so I just want to let everyone know that this is still on going, I have not given up, and it certainly is coming out.

A few people seemed to think it had been abandoned, it hasn't!

After all, no news is good (amazing) news right?

I'd start to pay attention sometime early 2014 ;)

[DaddyTorgo]

WOO!!!

Have you thought about doing Steam Greenlight and/or Kickstarter or something to amp up the visibility and get some pre-sales and buzz?

[FLC28]

Apologies, but I'm really not allowed to talk about it at this moment in time.

I wanted to say at least something though incase you all thought it had been abandoned! :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Apologies, but I'm really not allowed to talk about it at this moment in time.

I wanted to say at least something though incase you all thought it had been abandoned! :)

Interesting - I like the sound of that!!

I know what I'm thinking, but obviously you can't comment. It seems like it'd be a natural fit though.

[Karim]

Missed this the first time around. The prospects are tantalizing and would be a dream come true if pulled off. An FM-style game for the NFL is what many of us have dreamed about.

I've never supported a KickStarter project but definitely would if that the direction it goes.

[djsatu]

Will we be able to load team logos, player photo's easily like in FM?

[FLC28]

Will we be able to load team logos, player photo's easily like in FM?

That would be pretty great wouldn't it. ;)

[FLC28]

1/31

[DaddyTorgo]

is when we'll be hearing more news from you?

[Julio Riddols]

I have to wait til the 1st of Jantobuary? I don't even have a 31 month calendar handy to see how long it is until then.

[FLC28]

fixed that for you ;)

[PilotMan]

Sweetness, can't wait.

[Julio Riddols]

Between this and FOF 7 I am going to lose my football mind. I like it.

[chelm123456789]

I typically just lurk forums reading and getting a feel for how things are progressing. Thanks to Julio I heard about this. I'm a big fan of SI's Football Manager and hopefully this can have some of the same feel except for it being American Football.

[FLC28]

I hope so too, and thank you to Julio for spreading the word.
Stay tuned next week! ;)

(end of Jan next week, where has the month gone?!)

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Getting more excited!!! :D

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/general-discussions/240115-possible-football-game-coming-ootp-devs.html#post3633501

[FLC28]

me too..... :cool:

[EagleFan]

me too..... :cool:

Tease...

:D

[EagleFan]

Though I will warn you...

If BTS stands for Beer Tent Simulator there will be a revolt...

:)

[Julio Riddols]

I just hope the S doesn't stand for Saga.

[SirBlurton]

I've been really excited to read more about this game but have to admit the potential OOTP Developments connection worries me. OOTP is a great product, but the FHM release was an abomination...

I know this would be a different programmer, so hopefully a different result too! Everything I've seen so far in regard this this game is exciting - so really hope that continues!

Looking forward to the announcement!

[Toddzilla]

I didn't know OOTP was working on an American pro football simulation, but they posted something on Facebook expressing dismay that "proprietary materials" was "stolen" from their "offices".

They then link to an Operation Sports page that has a short video and a preliminary feature list.

I'm not going to repost the info or link here in the *tineiest of miniscule, microscopic chances* that it's an actual leak.

However, it looks good :)

[vex]

Writing an (American) Football Management Game - by Francis Cole - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=87622)

[FLC28]

It's okay Toddzilla. You won't get into trouble :)

[Berger]

:) :) :) :D

Getting excited

[Toddzilla]

sigh - deleting thread.....dammit!

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I wouldn't delete it, I'm sure people who didn't click on the first thread would be interested.

[FLC28]

It's okay, the other link I guess is old news now :)

[MizzouRah]

Saw this over at OS.. wow.. great feature list! I've always wanted the one I highlighted in red, but very impressive to say the least.

Beyond the Sideline Football Features
A realistic modern day American football experience with all current rules and regulations.
All 32 real American football teams with their real players and current rosters.
A 2D engine that represents all the action on the field, with the ability to call plays and watch them unfold, complete with the roar of the crowd and other sound effects.
FaceGen support allows realistic images of all players.
You dictate the action on the field: Set depth charts and develop strategies around your preferred style of play.
A complete box score for every game played in the league during its history, so you can always look back on thrilling victories and agonizing defeats.
The ability to sim decades into the future and watch teams' fortunes rise and fall as dynasties emerge, crumble, and eventually renew themselves.
You call the shots from the front office: Participate in the draft for your team every spring; trade players; and negotiate contracts with draft picks and free agents.
All of the (non-playable) Division I colleges as well as many more, with real players, so you can draft the next crop of superstars every year.
A living, breathing world full of news articles from around the league and a message system that lets you field offers from other GMs and hear what your players have to say.
A realistic sim engine whose creation was informed by 15 years of experience developing OOTP's sim engine
Complete histories, including stats, transactions, injuries, and contracts, for all players who have participated in a training camp during the past decade.
Nearly 50 tracked stats, allowing you to go beyond the usual numbers and dig deep into players' performance.
Each player features a Health Scan that lets you quickly assess their current situation by showing you which areas of their body are hurt, which areas are okay, and which ones are worn.
A clear, clean interface that lets you easily find the information you need.
Customization options, including the ability to change team names, the number of teams, the league structure, the league's country, and a variety of settings.

[Blackadar]

No reason to delete.

I just wish the Operations Sports page worked correctly so I could view the video.

[FLC28]

It's a bit of a jokey video :)

[Toddzilla]

The video is nothing at all - a home video of a little kid in a football helmet and then the logo. That's it - no voice over and no info.

[Toddzilla]

OK, specs:

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Writing an (American) Football Management Game - by Francis Cole (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=2898368&postcount=95)

[FLC28]

It did have a voice over! It said that one-day he's going to draft the kid! :D

[Sun Tzu]

http://guycodeblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/funny-gifs-dancing-alone1.gif

[Groundhog]

Sounds pretty darn impressive if they pull it off.

[MizzouRah]

Sorry TZ.. this Todd didn't know you already saw that feature list. I'm all confused to what's going on with this game.

[Eaglesfan27]

Looks like a great list. I am looking forward to how this unfolds.

[Young Drachma]

I'm following for sure.

[FLC28]

I'm all confused to what's going on with this game.

Sorry for the confusion. I'll be able to explain more tomorrow if that's okay :)

Maybe we should re-name the thread, or start a new one then ?
(and maybe change my name as well!)

Thanks,
Francis

[Groundhog]

All of the (non-playable) Division I colleges as well as many more, with real players, so you can draft the next crop of superstars every year.

My dream has always been a fully integrated college/pro game, whether football or basketball. Much, much further down the road I'd love to see the college sim setup as a module that you could purchase/unlock.

[SteveMax58]

I'm following for sure.

Same here. The list looks great & looking forward to seeing more.

[cartman]

I haven't seen any screenshots yet where the developer's name is spelled 'Fracnis', so that at least is a promising sign. :D

[MizzouRah]

Sorry for the confusion. I'll be able to explain more tomorrow if that's okay :)

Maybe we should re-name the thread, or start a new one then ?
(and maybe change my name as well!)

Thanks,
Francis

Yes, that's fine.. thank you!

[sovereignstar v2]

Head-2-head?

[NobodyHere]

But will there be beer tents?

[EagleFan]

Good luck satisfying the OOTP nuts. Holy crap, they practically want to be able to adjust the physics of the game. A first version of any game adding all of that would be an insane hill to climb and to be honest, going too customizable ruins a game. I don't want to have to take 5 hours just to setup the game that I want to run.

[PilotMan]

I'm sold, looking forward to hearing more about it tomorrow.

[jaygr]

I'm sold, looking forward to hearing more about it tomorrow.

+1

I'm really hoping it is available tomorrow and not just announced and coming in a month or something like that.

[EagleFan]

If it's available tomorrow I may have to take a week long vacation.

[PilotMan]

If it's available tomorrow I may have to take a week long vacation.

You can't afford that much kleenex.

[Grim.Reaper]

Although I would love to have it release tomorrow, I find it hard to believe it would be released without any pre hype. In my opinion, best hope would be some early access to the beta like they did with the hockey game. Still think that is even a stretch. Would love to be wrong:)

[EagleFan]

You can't afford that much kleenex.

We have towels and a washing machine!!!!

:eek:

[mcgriffi]

Super excited about this...been waiting for years!

[FLC28]

I can finally talk about it !

http://files.ootpdevelopments.com/newsletters/nl0134/index.html

Feel free to ask any questions.

I have no idea if a new topic should be made or not, the mods can decide that :)

[Antmeister]

Um....wow. Will be definitely keeping an eye on this over the coming year. Hoping for all the best and that you get a majority of that implemented in the first version. Good to see another sim on the market. Excited to see progress on this.

[Grim.Reaper]

Good news, but will be a long wait until it comes out sometime n 2015. But still excited and thanks for info.

[FLC28]

Yeah I basically had to start again which was unfortunate (but necessary).

[NobodyHere]

How much will it cost?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Hey folks,

some of you already knew the rumors for a few days... and it's true, we're developing a football game called Beyond the Sideline Football.

Find out more about the game in our latest newsletter here:
http://files.ootpdevelopments.com/newsletters/nl0134/index.html

The official game forum can be found here:
BTS - General Discussions - OOTP Developments Forums (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/bts-general-discussions/)

Lead developer Francis Cole, whose username is FLC28 here, will answer your questions I'm sure :)

Well, this is pretty exciting for us, and I hope some of you will follow along. I'm very optimistic that BTS will be a worthy addition to the sports simulation genre.

Cheers,
Markus

[Markus Heinsohn]

I created a thread for it, so I suggest we continue the discussion there:

OOTP Developments Announces 'Beyond the Sideline Football' - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2898548)

Cheers,
Markus

[Michael V.]

VERY much looking forward to this....

[Michael V.]

I will be following with great interest.

As will I...

[dave731]

YES YES YES!!!

[Marc Vaughan]

Awesome stuff - congrats to all concerned :D

[SegRat]

Sweet

[RomaGoth]

I created a thread for it, so I suggest we continue the discussion there:

OOTP Developments Announces 'Beyond the Sideline Football' - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2898548)

Cheers,
Markus

Interestingly, the link takes me back to this thread. :confused:

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

It seems all threads about this are getting combined in here... perhaps Francis can edit the title to something more descriptive? I didn't realize anything was really happening until I saw Toddzilla's thread.

[FLC28]

I didn't even make the thread so I can't edit it unfortunately :(

If someone could edit my name or at lest put BTS under it that would be great too :)

[Markus Heinsohn]

Interestingly, the link takes me back to this thread. :confused:

It looks like a moderator deleted my thread and merged it with this one again. No idea why, but oh well... :confused:

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Ah, that's right, Marc then?

[Toddzilla]

Then the Mod should have changed the name of the thrread to properly reflect the discussion now instead of merging threads willy-nilly


...I just wanted to use the term willy-nilly

[Johnny93g]

I know the developers are different, but Hockey was/is a disaster, and that's the most recent "new" venture by OOTP.

I would hope by the time this comes out, it will surpass the first version of the hockey game, which lacks common sense features, to say the least. I'm glad it seems like they aren't rushing this, though it seemed that way with hockey to.

To OOTP's credit, i was given a refund for hockey (it took a few emails to get a response), but I sure won't be handing over my money as easily this time.

I hope the game is great, I really do. Better games are a good thing. Just thinking it's alot easier to announce features then implement them. Good luck!!

[MizzouRah]

2015??? Oh man.. :(

GOOD LUCK! I love what this could turn out to be!

[BYU 14]

I know the developers are different, but Hockey was/is a disaster, and that's the most recent "new" venture by OOTP.

I would hope by the time this comes out, it will surpass the first version of the hockey game, which lacks common sense features, to say the least. I'm glad it seems like they aren't rushing this, though it seemed that way with hockey to.

To OOTP's credit, i was given a refund for hockey (it took a few emails to get a response), but I sure won't be handing over my money as easily this time.

I hope the game is great, I really do. Better games are a good thing. Just thinking it's alot easier to announce features then implement them. Good luck!!

I think there was some learning in that and Francis is taking his time. He has a lot done, but putting release in 2015 gives him plenty of time to get it right and he is also not trying to do too much, with focus on getting the NFL right in this version and then expanding. I have high hopes for this one.

[Ben E Lou]

Love the feature list and hope it goes well. As always, I have major concerns about the ability to do a statistically accurate 2D sim engine for football. Typically such an endeavor creates far too many "max-length" plays, resulting in shorter-gain plays having to be toned down to make averages come out right.

[Qrusher14242]

I thought EA had the NFL license? Is it going to be like OOTP where you download a roster?

[FLC28]

OOTP comes with the rosters already. You only have to download logos if you want them.

[sterlingice]

I guess this means that with increased competition in the NFL space, Jim will have to get to work on TCY2 :D

SI

[Qrusher14242]

OOTP comes with the rosters already. You only have to download logos if you want them.

oh yeah i forgot about that heh So i guess they'll do the same thing with this game. I just thought you couldn't make a game with NFL rosters cause of EA's license. Or is it just the Logos?

[Carman Bulldog]

I'm sure someone knows quite a bit more about this than me but I believe there is American case law that supports the use of real player names. Obviously stuff like logos, team names, etc. and the like that would be considered intellectual property are off limits for use.

Thus why you can have Joe Flacco as the QB for the Baltimore Crows, etc.

[Logan]

The release announcement says "All 32 real American football teams" which I think is a bit disingenuous if it only includes the players and doesn't include the NFL license. The Baltimore Crows is not a real American football team.

[RomaGoth]

I guess this means that with increased competition in the NFL space, Jim will have to get to work on TCY2 :D

SI

+2

[jaygr]

I am very much looking forward to this, as I have been since this thread first started. It is great to see another football sim on the market.

I'm disappointed that it is going to be at least another year until the game is out, especially after the indication earlier was that there may be a working version of the game at the start of this year. However, I feel like this is the right direction to go. I am interested to see what another year of polish and working with an established sim company can produce.

[sovereignstar v2]

I'm kind of relieved nothing is on the horizon. The first batch of screenshots didn't look good IMO. The UI reminded me of that World Basketball Manager game.

[Karim]

As has been mentioned, I really hope they learn from FHM and scale back rather than try and be all things to all people.

[cartman]

I think the big difference between FHM and this product is that FHM had already existed as a product before. They don't have to really make any compromises between what people grew accustomed to and how that would fit into the OOTP universe.

[EagleFan]

I think the big difference between FHM and this product is that FHM had already existed as a product before. They don't have to really make any compromises between what people grew accustomed to and how that would fit into the OOTP universe.

???

[cartman]

???

I might be mistaken, but isn't Franchise Hockey Manager based on Eastside Hockey Manager?

[EagleFan]

I might be mistaken, but isn't Franchise Hockey Manager based on Eastside Hockey Manager?

I don't believe so, if it is it was screwed up royally.

[FLC28]

EHM was done by someone else entirely, (who now works at SI) :)

[Marc Vaughan]

I might be mistaken, but isn't Franchise Hockey Manager based on Eastside Hockey Manager?

No not at all - the original creator of Eastside was Risto Remes (Riz) who still works at SI.

(I personally do think Franchise Hockey Manager was a hugely ambitious undertaking and will come good - they're definitely very passionate about it)

[cartman]

Ah, thanks for the clarifications. I made the wrong assumption. I kept reading on the OOTP boards about what people wanted from EHM in FHM, and then with the similar naming, I made a bad logical jump.

[sovereignstar v2]

Go on with your bad self OOTP board members.

And what about Aussie rules?

What a crushing disappointment that the CFL will not be modelled.

[FLC28]

It's impossible to please everyone :)

[Groundhog]

Gosh, if you're making a complex 2D simulation of American Football, the very least you could do is also make a complex 2D simulation of a completely unrelated sport like Aussie Rules.

[FBPro]

From what they've said the look of the game will be based on OOTP and the early screenshots from last fall are essentially meaningless.

[lungs]

Will I be able to model a historical 4th grade pee wee league?

[Comey]

Will I be able to model a historical 4th grade pee wee league?

Only 5th grade and up. Moms Against Anything wouldn't let it happen.

[cartman]

Well, that sucks. I was hoping to sim the game that Senator coached against Sean Payton.

[NobodyHere]

Can we at least get the Lingerie Football League modeled with full 3d modeling (only player models, I don't care about the rest).

[Comey]

The Puppy Bowl is an Easter Egg. Just FYI.

[FLC28]

I think some of them are just overly enthusiastic :D

[EagleFan]

I think some of them are just overly enthusiastic :D

They are overly something, that's for sure. ;)

[EagleFan]

Can I create a flag football league with only one armed midgets in which I can make a touchdown worth 72 points and field goals worth -24 points?

[FLC28]

I know you jest, but I do actually feel bad when I have to tell them "No" to questions like that. (It doesn't stop them asking though :D ).

[Michael V.]

It's impossible to please everyone :)


You've got that right. It is impossible in all and any application(s) in life, let alone a game. ;)

Francis, I do not know where you stand on your faith, as far as your belief in God goes, but may God bless you in your endeavour that you may succeed and have success. You seem like a real down to earth and genuine guy... :)

[FLC28]

Thank you Michael :) That means a lot :)

[sovereignstar v2]

I know you jest, but I do actually feel bad when I have to tell them "No" to questions like that. (It doesn't stop them asking though :D ).

They are pretty dang spoiled over there. Some of us over here would probably be pretty happy with the ability to just change league sizes...

[FLC28]

Thank you for the title change :)

[EagleFan]

I know you jest, but I do actually feel bad when I have to tell them "No" to questions like that. (It doesn't stop them asking though :D ).

:D

Will be looking forward to the finished product. Don't let the OOTP crazies beat you down. The most important first step is a fun game that plays well. They may want the world but trying that on the first release can be product suicide.

It's always better to do something well than do a lot of things incompletely.

Wishing you the best.

[JPhillips]

Can I create a flag football league with only one armed midgets in which I can make a touchdown worth 72 points and field goals worth -24 points?

And for God's sake get the AI right. I was winning by 20 at the end of the fourth quarter and the AI kicked a 50 yd field goal, and I lost by four. AAARRRGGGH!

[flere-imsaho]

I know you jest, but I do actually feel bad when I have to tell them "No" to questions like that. (It doesn't stop them asking though :D ).

I wonder what Paul & Olliver Collyer would have done with CM had they been subjected to the kind of feedback game developers get on-line these days.

[FLC28]

That is a sobering thought indeed.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, I can't remember if they ever frequented the ChampMan USENET newsgroup (which I did, but I'm going to guess they didn't), and I don't remember when SI set up its forums, but at the very least I'm going to guess it wouldn't have been until 2000-2002 when they would have started getting a deluge of feedback like one does today (though I'm sure they got plenty of emails and *gasp* actual mail).

My point, however, is that that's a large number of years for them to really focus on their own vision for their game, and I'd propose they were the better for it.

Not to say that game developers shouldn't listen to their fans, but generally not at the expense of their own vision. It's something I feel SI, to be honest, has generally kept even up until this day.

[FLC28]

though I'm sure they got plenty of emails and *gasp* actual mail

Which is how I originally got in touch and led to the events of me joining.
I can't imagine that in today's market many contacts would be made like that (it would be done on Twitter now-a-days, which is never as good).

[RomaGoth]

It's impossible to please everyone :)

Will the XFL be a playable league?

[riz]

Good luck with the project Fran ! Looks interesting :)

And as Marc said above, FHM is not related to EHM outside of the fact that many of the researchers who worked on EHM back in the day ended up doing research for FHM as well.

[Ben E Lou]

I missed this for a while, and wonder if others did as well. Sad news from OOTPDev regarding Francis:

An update - May 13th. - OOTP Developments Forums (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/bts-general-discussions/254999-update-may-13th.html)

We are hiring: Software developer for Beyond the Sideline Football - OOTP Developments Forums (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/bts-general-discussions/255253-we-hiring-software-developer-beyond-sideline-football.html)

[SegRat]

Hopefully they can find someone.

[Ben E Lou]

Hopefully they can find someone.Well, I'd say that concern is a far #2 to the concern about Francis recovering. I merely posted the second link to emphasize that it sounds like his recovery path is more long-term than short-term. :(

[EagleFan]

Crap, sorry to hear that. Wish him the best and that he has a full recovery.

[jaygr]

There has been an update posted on the BTS forum:
BTS Development Update - January 2016 (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/bts-general-discussions/261746-bts-development-update-january-2016-a.html)

I was excited to see first of all that Francis is making good progress in his recovery and that they have hope that he'll be able to join the development of the game in the future.

Second of all, they have found a replacement programmer finally. I am hoping that the game development will pick up steam now. I'm interested to see what they can come up with.

[PilotMan]

Cause you want to read it.

Hey folks,

we have finally found a new lead developer for BTS who will start to work on the project in February. His name is Michael Winter, he is a big NFL fan and has a nice background in sports game design & development. I'll introduce him officially next week.

Meanwhile, Francis is still in the process of recovering from his health issue. He is making good progress and we hope he will be able to re-join the development team in some capacity in the future.

So, BTS is alive. We will keep you updated with the progress in a regular manner!

Cheers,
Markus

[Dutch]

Winter, eh?

[Senator]

Not the Steelers

[SirFozzie]

Wait, is that the guy behind Maximum Football?

Oh dear.

[SlyBelle1]

Wait, is that the guy behind Maximum Football?

Oh dear.

Pretty sure that was David Winter

[SirFozzie]

Ok. Whew. Was worried there.

[Dutch]

Daivd Winter to be less exact.

[NobodyHere]

I thought Maximum Football was a myth that parents told to scare children.

[Dutch]

I thought Maximum Football was a myth that parents told to scare children.

To be fair, it wasn't intended to scare children, but that was a side-effect. More directly, the extreme customization options inspired Thursday Night Football's "Color Rush" theme this year. "Holy crap! We can customize our shit too!" noted Roger Goodell after checking out Maximum Football.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Daivd Winter to be less exact.

:)

[Senator]

Well, that sucks. I was hoping to sim the game that Senator coached against Sean Payton.

single wing must be a choice

[digamma]

OOTP reported that Francis Cole (who had been ill as maybe had been posted on this board) passed away. RIP Francis.

[21C]

Very sad news.

[JPhillips]

That sucks. Did he have family?

[Marc Vaughan]

That sucks. Did he have family?

He had parents but no spouse or children - he was a lovely kid, still (relatively) young when he passed away. Fran didn't make a big deal about it - but he had heart problems all his life and had numerous surgeries which unfortunately never truly gave him a normal life.

He was a talented designer and incredibly upbeat and cheerful despite all the obstacles he faces in his life - he'll be missed by all of us who knew him.

PS - I'd known him since he was a teenager and he contacted me asking about how we created (back then) CM, I spoke to him semi-regularly and he eventually came onboard as first QA and then eventually as a programmer at SI ... unfortunately due to his health issues he had to leave after a few years (by which time I was in the US) but he stayed in contact with quite a few of us.

[MizzouRah]

That's very sad news. RIP :(

[3ric]

Terrible news. I remember his enthusiasm for the new football project with SI, he came across as a great guy.

[jaygr]

Awful news. You will be missed, Francis.

[PilotMan]

Yep very sad news, and sad when it hits close to our community. RIP to a talented man who left too soon.

[GrantDawg]

This is so sad. Sorry for your loss.

[Arles]

That's just awful. He seemed like a really nice guy and I think he would have made a great game. I never knew that about his heart and I think that's even more a credit to his memory that he stayed so upbeat through all this.

[Ben E Lou]

Horrible. :(