NFL WEEK 9

[korme]

Here we go Bengals, here we go.

#IhateThursdayGames

[BillJasper]

#IhateThursdayGames

Preach it!

[cuervo72]

Nice drive, Fins.

[Grover]

Of course we're down 7-3 to Miami.

[Lathum]

Daltons lucky that wasn't a pick 6

[Dutch]

The ironic win-win for #40 (on that ST personal foul) there is he gets to blast defenseless players with no regard for and then he gets to sue the NFL for allowing the game to be so violent.

[rowech]

Of course we're down 7-3 to Miami.

This was going to be a loss. Every sign pointed to it given the nature of the NFL. More importantly is Atkins' injury. If its bad, the season is done as they will limp to 10-6 and be out in the first round.

[Julio Riddols]

Wow, they just will not call a personal foul on anyone for doing anything to Burfict. Kinda impressive he keeps his cool this whole time.

[Grover]

Dammit Gresham. That was the stupidest penalty...

[Grover]

Throw OUTSIDE the receiver not behind. Christ.

[rowech]

Just an embarrassing display of football in every way. Not a single guy doing his job. Like watching the game against the Browns all over again.

[Lathum]

Wow. Giovanni Bernard.

[Julio Riddols]

A little Gio Sanders out there.

[Grover]

Amazing. Awesome.

[rowech]

What a perfect way to end that game.

[Solecismic]

Hard to believe that's the third time that's happened in an NFL overtime.

[Julio Riddols]

Dropped passes and another stupid Gresham penalty did it this week. Everything else was ok. People are going to pin this on Dalton, but he played lights out in the second half.

[rowech]

Dropped passes and another stupid Gresham penalty did it this week. Everything else was ok. People are going to pin this on Dalton, but he played lights out in the second half.

The defense was awful and with Atkins done for the year the rush defense just got a lot worse. ThemDolphins absolutely gashed them on the ground. Two best defensive players in a span of three weeks. They will still make the playoffs but the feeling they see a contender crashed very hard tonight.

[Butter]

People are going to pin this on Dalton, because he gave the Dolphins 12 of their 22 points. The defense wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible. I mean, they came back from that Terence Newman tackling of Mike Wallace across midfield to force a punt, then Dalton doesn't have the presence of mind to step up a bit in the pocket to avoid a safety. I really would've been fine with a tie at that point.

I realize the Dolphins have a solid secondary and a good pass rush, but JESUS CHRIST. No reason for only scoring 3 points in the first half. That was really the game.

[JPhillips]

This game had shit the bed written all over it, short week, travel, lots of injuries.

At least the Bengals have only two November games, so they should be able to get as healthy as possible for the home stretch. Zim has his work cut out for him with eight defensive players on IR.

[Julio Riddols]

Well, they gave up only 15 rushing yards in the second half and if Mo Sanu doesn't drop that perfect red zone throw right into Miami's hands Cinci probably wins in regulation. Then Sanu dropped the ball that would have given Nugent a chance to seal the game in OT too. Green dropped what would have been an easy 1st down and put the Bengals in scoring range as well. Greshams holding call wiped out a TD pass that also would have been the difference in the game, as Dalton would not have thrown the pick-6 on that drive. 14 point swing there. Cinci should have won by 20.

So many points left on the field.

I'm not worried about Geno going down from a run defense perspective, but I think with him and Hall both out the pass D is going to weaken quite a bit. The receivers can't drop passes like they did last night and expect to win, but I think the offense can be good enough to win shootouts. They just need to keep feeding Gio and stop dropping passes.

[BillJasper]

It was an ugly win but as a Miami fan... I'll take it. :lol:

[QuikSand]

Best. Under. Evar.

[chadritt]

Justin Blackmon of Jacksonville Jaguars suspended indefinitely - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9913531/justin-blackmon-jacksonville-jaguars-suspended-indefinitely)

[larrymcg421]

Best. Under. Evar.

Wow. I just looked at that! Pretty awesome way to win a bet. Had to be pretty scary going into OT.

[Danny]

Jacksonville really doing what it takes to make a run at 0-16.

And at -178 already, they are on pace to shatter the ineptitude of the 2008 Lions and become the worst team in the history of the NFL!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Not for a couple of weeks, but the KC-Denver game was flexed to Sunday Night Football by NBC.

[Carman Bulldog]

Yep - Jags were awful before Blackmon came back. I thought with him that they had a shot in a few games as he can put up 200 yards on his own.

They only have one team left that's currently over .500 and that's the Colts in Week 17, so they have a shot. It could be ugly though.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Broncos HC Fox hospitalized with heart attack symptoms. Hope he's OK. Heart attacks are nothing to mess with.

John Fox, Denver Broncos coach, hospitalized with symptoms of heart attack - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9917845/john-fox-denver-broncos-coach-hospitalized-symptoms-heart-attack)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Broncos HC Fox hospitalized with heart attack symptoms. Hope he's OK. Heart attacks are nothing to mess with.

John Fox, Denver Broncos coach, hospitalized with symptoms of heart attack - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9917845/john-fox-denver-broncos-coach-hospitalized-symptoms-heart-attack)

update: Both Fox and the Denver p.r. guy have now tweeted/texted that it was not a heart attack.

[Desnudo]

Ugh

New England Patriots place Tommy Kelly on season-ending IR - ESPN Boston (http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/9917993/new-england-patriots-place-tommy-kelly-season-ending-ir)

[Coffee Warlord]

FYI for fantasy owners - Marques Colston is inactive today.

Not that he's done much for me this year.

[tucker rocky]

KC has lost six straight meetings in Buffalo, last win in Buffalo came in 1986.
Buf/KC have played each other 5 seasons in a row(today makes 6), Buffalo holds a 4-1 edge.

[mckerney]

Yep - Jags were awful before Blackmon came back. I thought with him that they had a shot in a few games as he can put up 200 yards on his own.

They only have one team left that's currently over .500 and that's the Colts in Week 17, so they have a shot. It could be ugly though.


Really hoping the Jags and Bucs find a way to win a couple games.

[BillJasper]

NFL RedZone was showing the Falcons-Panthers game and they said a fight broke out four plays earlier but the Panthers were in their black jerseys during the fight (replay) and their blue jerseys during the live-action. :lol:

[cuervo72]

Redskins looked impressive passing, not so much running on that drive. But, no points.

[Radii]

Carolina goes for it on 4th and 1 from the 14, play action rollout, TD to Olsen... Rivera is a totally different coach lately, I like it!

[BillJasper]

Nice interception by the Falcons.

[Radii]

yeah it was :/ Dumb decision by Cam there. Carolina gets the ball to start the 3rd, they have to get points there with the chance to score twice in a row.

[Thomkal]

Crazy stat of the day: Chargers hadn't blocked a FG in nine years...they have two (so far) today.

[BillJasper]

Are the Chiefs starting to crack under the pressure of being undefeated?

[BillJasper]

:lol:

[mckerney]

Classic Ponder.

[SirFozzie]

14 point swing in Buffalo-KC, 3rd and goal at the 2, Buffalo looking to expand their lead to at least 10 if not 14..

Picked at the goal line, taken 100 yards the other way to tie the game at 10-10

[claphamsa]

Crazy stat of the day: Chargers hadn't blocked a punt in nine years...they have two (so far) today.

FG not punt

[mckerney]

Are the Chiefs starting to crack under the pressure of being undefeated?

They're having trouble playing somewhere as quiet as Buffalo.

[Thomkal]

FG not punt


Oops, was watching a punt while I typed that-I will change :)

[miami_fan]

Outstanding job by the officiating crew in the Dallas-Minnesota game to pick up that flag.

[EagleFan]

lol @ Dez Bryant....

[Radii]

lol @ Dez Bryant....

loved the replay there that showed Jared Allen right behind him laughing at him and making a "throw the flag" motion.

[Carman Bulldog]

A lot of teams that I would classify as contenders struggling in the past 7 days, including Seattle last Monday, Cincinnati on Thursday and the Chiefs and Saints so far today.

[EagleFan]

Awesome TD run by Peterson, he refused to be stopped.

[EagleFan]

Lousy call in the Jets game. That wasn't close to roughing the passer. Hit him at the waist.

[Radii]

If the Jets can avoid fucking this up, Carolina will only be 1 game behind the Saints in the NFC South. Next three for Carolina: @San Francisco, vs New England, @Miami...

[BillJasper]

Chiefs are simply going to have to figure out how to score more points or they're going to get trashed by Denver.

[Radii]

J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS!!!!!!

[Thomkal]

oh Tony Romo, are you going to make me hate the Cowboys even more after I picked you to win this week in the Survival League? :(

[Thomkal]

A lot of teams that I would classify as contenders struggling in the past 7 days, including Seattle last Monday, Cincinnati on Thursday and the Chiefs and Saints so far today.

Yeah its been a very strange season for the NFL I think. Teams like the Jets and Carolina who looked about as bad as you can be in losses to the Bengals and the Cardinals respectively, and then come back and be leading late against a team who should be much better than them (Saints for the Jets), or four wins in a row for the Panthers. It's really been hard to predict games this year.

[Thomkal]

some pretty fun finishes here...

[chadritt]

Red Zone network is really amazing for moments like this. Also whoever they have doing the play by play for three games at once is impressive.

[Thomkal]

oh Tony Romo, are you going to make me hate the Cowboys even more after I picked you to win this week in the Survival League? :(

oh Tony Romo how I love you... ;) Still hate the Cowboys though.

[BillJasper]

I don't think Woodhead was in.

[BillJasper]

Heartbreaker for the Vikings.

[Radii]

Heartbreaker for the Vikings.

Just think how different these final 30 seconds would have felt if they hadn't missed an extra point.

[cuervo72]

Way to suck there, San Diego.

[BillJasper]

Why didn't the Chargers try a QB sneak?

[claphamsa]

as much complaining as I get about watching football.... some fucking terrible games on here...

[Buccaneer]

Makes hate the Jets even more. A QB going 8 for 19 and 115 yards just does not deserve to win, esp. with an attitude problem.

[BillJasper]

I think Weeden is destined to be the Cleveland QB. :lol:

[Thomkal]

Yeah its been a very strange season for the NFL I think. Teams like the Jets and Carolina who looked about as bad as you can be in losses to the Bengals and the Cardinals respectively, and then come back and be leading late against a team who should be much better than them (Saints for the Jets), or four wins in a row for the Panthers. It's really been hard to predict games this year.

And the strangeness continues in Seattle-Tampa Bay leading 20-0. WTF?

[Coffee Warlord]

With a 2 yard passing TD from the running back, no less.

[Thomkal]

With a 2 yard passing TD from the running back, no less.

yeah that was a strange one too-he popped up over the mob at the line like he was shooting a jumpshot.

[Atocep]

Makes hate the Jets even more. A QB going 8 for 19 and 115 yards just does not deserve to win, esp. with an attitude problem.

I'd love to hear about Geno's attitude problems.

Football is also a lot more interesting when it takes more than just passing yards to win.

[mckerney]

And the strangeness continues in Seattle-Tampa Bay leading 20-0. WTF?

Wooooooo! Go Bucaneers!

[fantom1979]

Makes hate the Jets even more. A QB going 8 for 19 and 115 yards just does not deserve to win, esp. with an attitude problem.

Jets went to a AFC championship game a couple of years ago winning games just like this. They haven't had really good QB play since Testaverde in 98.

[SirFozzie]

Gotta love scoring a TD with :10 to play and getting the second half kickoff

[RedKingGold]

Chip Kelly is clearly in over his head in the NFL.

Foles with 5x TD passes.

[kingfc22]

Wooooooo! Go Bucaneers!


Don't let these clowns escape with another one they should end up losing.

[BillJasper]

Getting ugly in Oakland.

[mckerney]

Don't let these clowns escape with another one they should end up losing.

For me I wouldn't mind seeing Seattle win, I just want Tampa and Jacksonville to get a few wins to aid the Vikings in the Blow for Bridgewater campaign.

[EagleFan]

Who started Nick Foles on their fantasy team this week?

[MikeVic]

Who started Nick Foles on their fantasy team this week?

Bench for me, another reason I'm likely dropping fantasy completely next year. :p

[britrock88]

Who started Nick Foles on their fantasy team this week?

Dropped him for Pryor (Kaep is my #1) when he was concussed. :(

[Atocep]

Who started Nick Foles on their fantasy team this week?

I did. He's going to single-handedly win my matchup this week when I have 4 players sitting because of a bye.

[Izulde]

I didn't but he's on my bench after I picked him up this week due to dropping Reuben Randle. Sigh. Still winning even without him and will likely move back into first place as a result, but still..

[General Mike]

Hmmm. Tom Brady with his best game of the season after that South park episode. Makes you think.

[SirFozzie]

Multiple Eff You TD's.. hope the Pats Offense is back for good.

[Buccaneer]

Multiple Eff You TD's.. hope the Pats Offense is back for good.

Me too. The NFL is much more interesting with QBs that know how to read defenses and throw accurately (along with receivers running good routes and actually catch balls thrown to them).

[Desnudo]

Multiple Eff You TD's.. hope the Pats Offense is back for good.

Looks like his injury issues were short term thankfully. Offense looked great because they finally ran Ridley from the start.

The defense is clearly vulnerable in both run and pass. Kyle Arrington is continuing to do a great job of showing QBs the back of his jersey so they have a target. It'll be interesting when the opponent level picks up after the bye.

[Julio Riddols]

Dobson is starting to come around it looks like. I may be wrong about him.

[spleen1015]

How that not a penalty on Houston for running into the punter like that?

[B & B]

How that not a penalty on Houston for running into the punter like that?

http://thetravelcrew.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/lasvegas1.jpg

[Carman Bulldog]

Wow, not sure how they were able to conclusively over turn that fumble.

[spleen1015]

That ref fucking sucks. Misses the roughing call earlier and now this.

[jeff061]

Multiple Eff You TD's.. hope the Pats Offense is back for good.
Comes back when Gronkowski and Amendola are back on the field, no shocker.

Now we'll see about their defense....

[spleen1015]

2 Texans TDs because this ref sucks ass.

[Suicane75]

Who started Nick Foles on their fantasy team this week?

I did. And I'm still losing. To a team that didn't start a 2nd QB. I want to die.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Suicane75]

Oh, and these refs suck.

[Danny]

Apparently Andre Johnson has gained the ability to become invisible to the opposition

[cuervo72]

I agree with what Michaels/Collingsworth just said - I can buy that his left hand was still on the ball while his right hand was OOB.

[bulletsponge]

wtf? Kubiak passes out from shock at whats happening?

[TRO]

I did. And I'm still losing. To a team that didn't start a 2nd QB. I want to die.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Ya, I got caught by the Thursday game with my backup. Thankfully Brady and Andre Johnson are picking up the slack :cool:

[Julio Riddols]

wtf? Kubiak passes out from shock at whats happening?

Pretty concerning.

[dubb93]

4th and 11 from mid-field sucks, but you can't kick it away with less than two minutes left and only two timeouts. Feels like they just conceded the game.

[dubb93]

Looks like they will get the ball back anyway, but make a stop either way and you get the ball back. I take the shot on 4th there.

[dubb93]

Twas super wrong. Keenum did well to get them in it at the end.

[Julio Riddols]

Keenum is a gunslinger, man. Very Favre-esque out there.

[bhlloy]

I just can't make any sense of what is a catch any more - having to control it all the way to the ground even 5 feet out and after you've controlled it for a couple seconds is nonsensical. Houston got very hard done by there.

And yah, punting it away in that situation and wasting the two minute warning as well was Wade Phillips all over. If you were going to punt, at least do a better job with the clock so you get the two minute warning and the two timeouts. Just awful clock management.

[fantom1979]

Wade Phillips cemented the opinion that he should never again be an NFL head coach. It was a tough position for him to be thrown into tonight, but blowing a 21-3 halftime lead probably didn't get him put on any short lists.

[fantom1979]

It's amazing how many favorites struggled in the first half this week, only to turn it on and pull out the game in the second half.

KC down 10-3 at half, win 23-13
Dallas down 10-6 at half, win 27-23
Seattle down 21-7 at half, win 27-24
Indy down 21-3 at half, win 27-24

[Radii]

Insane stat from r/nfl on reddit:

For the fourth time this year, Tampa Bay has lost despite having a 95% probability of winning at some point in the game

Based on Advanced NFL Stats' probability charts.
Week 1 @ NYJ - 98% after NYJ spikes the ball at their own 45, TB up 17-15, 0:15 left in the fourth quarter
Week 2 NO - 99% after gaining a first down to NO 36, up 14-13, 2:36 left in the fourth quarter
Week 4 ARI - 95% after Arizona punts, TB up 10-3, 4:12 left in the fourth quarter.
Week 9 @ SEA - 96% after going up 21-0, 2:23 left in the first half.


Sorry, Tampa fans. :/

[spleen1015]

Wade Phillips cemented the opinion that he should never again be an NFL head coach. It was a tough position for him to be thrown into tonight, but blowing a 21-3 halftime lead probably didn't get him put on any short lists.

Absolutely. His coverage of TY Hilton was horrendous.

[Butter]

I did. And I'm still losing. To a team that didn't start a 2nd QB. I want to die.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

My opponent did, and is going to beat me without even starting a 2nd WR.

Fuck you, Oakland.

[britrock88]

Absolutely. His coverage of TY Hilton was horrendous.

:lol:

[Chief Rum]

Karl Dorrell was calling plays for Houston in the second half.

Now you know why Karl Dorrell is no longer at UCLA.

(Although he appears to be a heck of a nice guy, otherwise...)

[BillJasper]

Karl Dorrell was calling plays for Houston in the second half.

Now you know why Karl Dorrell is no longer at UCLA.

(Although he appears to be a heck of a nice guy, otherwise...)

I thought Rick Dennison was the offensive coordinator in Houston? Seems like he should have been the one calling plays in Kubiak's absence?

[Chief Rum]

I thought Rick Dennison was the offensive coordinator in Houston? Seems like he should have been the one calling plays in Kubiak's absence?

I am relaying what I heard from the commentators on the radio. They said they were informed Karl Dorrell was calling plays in Kubiak's absence.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This is just flat-out awesome. 9-0 heading into the bye week with plenty of room to improve. Really, KC's season is all but set at this point. Even if they were to post a 4-3 record down the stretch, they'd be 13-3 and likely playing the worst division winner in the 4-5 game. If things go better and they can split with Denver, they've got a very good shot at winning the division.

The game at Denver is a total opportunity game. Win, and the division and first seed are looking great. Lose, and you still have the game at home to make things right. Not only that, but the coaching staff has two weeks to plan for it.

[JPhillips]

Right now the Bengals look likely to be the four seed. I'd MUCH rather they play the Chiefs than the Broncos.

[Desnudo]

Joining list of Aaron Hernandez award winners for not understanding how mobile technology works.

Richie Incognito of Miami Dolphins used slurs in messages to Jonathan Martin - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926139/richie-incognito-miami-dolphins-used-slurs-messages-jonathan-martin)

[BillJasper]

This is just flat-out awesome. 9-0 heading into the bye week with plenty of room to improve. Really, KC's season is all but set at this point. Even if they were to post a 4-3 record down the stretch, they'd be 13-3 and likely playing the worst division winner in the 4-5 game. If things go better and they can split with Denver, they've got a very good shot at winning the division.

The game at Denver is a total opportunity game. Win, and the division and first seed are looking great. Lose, and you still have the game at home to make things right. Not only that, but the coaching staff has two weeks to plan for it.

They don't figure out how to get more than nine offensive points against an average defense, they'll be going home from the playoffs in the first-round.

Brady or Manning or Dalton may toss you a pick six, but they're also going to score more than seventeen points.

[BillJasper]

Joining list of Aaron Hernandez award winners for not understanding how mobile technology works.

Richie Incognito of Miami Dolphins used slurs in messages to Jonathan Martin - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926139/richie-incognito-miami-dolphins-used-slurs-messages-jonathan-martin)

I'm a Dolphins fan. If the locker room is this out-of-control, they need to fire both Philbin and Ireland. Incognito should've been released the moment the Dolphins heard those voice messages.

[Butter]

Also saw the Deadspin report today that Incognito's father (or someone carefully impersonating him) is on a Dolphins message board trying to assassinate Martin's character. This shit just gets weirder and weirder.

[miked]

I'm not sure what's going on, as the Dolphins say there has been nothing reported, but another article I read said the NFL/Dolphins were aware of some of this behavior during the spring.

Hazing is one thing, but forcing rookies to pay for $30,000 dinners and vacations is stupid and probably a reason most of these vets are broke.

[Arles]

This is just flat-out awesome. 9-0 heading into the bye week with plenty of room to improve. Really, KC's season is all but set at this point. Even if they were to post a 4-3 record down the stretch, they'd be 13-3 and likely playing the worst division winner in the 4-5 game. If things go better and they can split with Denver, they've got a very good shot at winning the division.

The game at Denver is a total opportunity game. Win, and the division and first seed are looking great. Lose, and you still have the game at home to make things right. Not only that, but the coaching staff has two weeks to plan for it.
KC has been a lot of smoke and mirrors to me. Their only win against a .500 team was 17-16 at home to Dallas. Their road games are Jax, Vick's Philly in week 3 under Kelly, Tennessee without Locker and Buffalo on their 4th QB. I could see them easily making 13-3 with this schedule, but I can't see them staying within 2 TDs of Denver in Denver.

It's been a nice story, but the combined record of their opponents is 27-49 and they've actually faced a *worse* version of those opponents as they've gone against backup QBs in most of their games. I need to see them beat a team with a pulse and this Denver game will be their chance.

[Arles]

BTW, small sidebar, if Washington beats Minnesota on Thursday night, they will be one game back of the division going into the weekend. That's crazy to me.

[nol]

As always, PFTCommenter chimes in with the strongest take on the Miami situation.

Is Forcing Someone To Give You $15,000 Bullying? Richie Incognito Doesn't Think So. | Kissing Suzy Kolber (http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2013/11/forcing-someone-give-15000-bullying-richie-incognito-doesnt-think.html)

[Lathum]

Every minute Incognito is still a Dolphin they look worse
Everyone knows what's coming so the longer they wait the worse
It looks.

[gstelmack]

On KC, the beauty of this debate is we'll have a pretty good idea soon if they are paper tigers or the real deal. Unlike, say, the debate between Alabama/FSU/Oregon/Ohio State/Baylor.

[mckerney]

BTW, small sidebar, if Washington beats Minnesota on Thursday night, they will be one game back of the division going into the weekend. That's crazy to me.

If?

:(

[spleen1015]

What word comes to mind when you read the list of teams below?

Jacksonville
Dallas
Philadelphia
New York Giants
Tennessee
Oakland
Houston
Cleveland
Buffalo

[Suburban Rhythm]

What word comes to mind when you read the list of teams below?

Jacksonville
Dallas
Philadelphia
New York Giants
Tennessee
Oakland
Houston
Cleveland
Buffalo

BETTERTHANPITTSBURGH
?

[Lathum]

a combined 2 super bowl titles in the last 15 years :)

[cuervo72]

BTW, small sidebar, if Washington beats Minnesota on Thursday night, they will be one game back of the division going into the weekend. That's crazy to me.

I am fully expecting WAS to rebound from another crappy start to take the division at 8-8. And the 980 callers and local media will be oh so easy to listen to. :p

[Radii]

I am fully expecting WAS to rebound from another crappy start to take the division at 8-8.

Its too bad Minnesota couldn't hang on to beat Dallas yesterday, I think if that had happened there would be a legit chance that 7-9 would be good enough.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

KC has been a lot of smoke and mirrors to me. Their only win against a .500 team was 17-16 at home to Dallas. Their road games are Jax, Vick's Philly in week 3 under Kelly, Tennessee without Locker and Buffalo on their 4th QB. I could see them easily making 13-3 with this schedule, but I can't see them staying within 2 TDs of Denver in Denver.

It's been a nice story, but the combined record of their opponents is 27-49 and they've actually faced a *worse* version of those opponents as they've gone against backup QBs in most of their games. I need to see them beat a team with a pulse and this Denver game will be their chance.

The Denver team has been a 'nice story', but it's nothing to brag about. Their only win against a .500 team is a 3 point win against Dallas at home. The combined record of their opponents is 26-40. KC has outscored their opponents by 104 while Denver has outscored their opponents by 125, but Denver has a loss and KC does not. The only point I'd agree on is that I'd like to see Denver beat a team with a pulse and this KC game will be their chance.

[digamma]

Also saw the Deadspin report today that Incognito's father (or someone carefully impersonating him) is on a Dolphins message board trying to assassinate Martin's character. This shit just gets weirder and weirder.

Yeah, Incognito didn't think anyone would be able to detect his identity.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Every minute Incognito is still a Dolphin they look worse Everyone knows what's coming so the longer they wait the worse
It looks.

Eh, I think the legalities of collective bargaining/contracts/etc give the team adequate cover with regard to an immediate cut. Suspending him satisfies that portion of their responsibility for the time being IMO.

Now as to whether they enabled his alleged behavior, well, cutting him today (or yesterday for that matter) doesn't cover that.

edit to add: Noting here, just ftr, that I responded prior to seeing the latest accusations about the voice mails & texts and such. If there's physical evidence in hand, that could change the team's ability to react/respond.

[BishopMVP]

Dobson is starting to come around it looks like. I may be wrong about him.Interesting how quickly things have flipped between him and Thompkins (healthy scratch this week, 14 snaps week before). That's always been where he should have been - as the outside receiver and big-play threat along the sideline where his inconsistency doesn't make or break the game. Being the primary receiver on a 4th and 4 or running slants over the middle is not really his skillset, so it really helps him to have Amendola and Gronk back drawing attention in the middle. Thompkins is more of an inside guy, so I haven't given up on him, but I don't expect to see much of him (more than 20-30 snaps in a game) the rest of this year unless Amendola/Edelman gets hurt.

[Arles]

The Denver team has been a 'nice story', but it's nothing to brag about. Their only win against a .500 team is a 3 point win against Dallas at home. The combined record of their opponents is 26-40. KC has outscored their opponents by 104 while Denver has outscored their opponents by 125, but Denver has a loss and KC does not. The only point I'd agree on is that I'd like to see Denver beat a team with a pulse and this KC game will be their chance.
Actually, the Broncos beat Dallas on the road. If you think KC is better equipped to win right now than Denver, you should go to Vegas. I'm sure a ton of people would love to take your money. There's a reason Denver is 3-1 and KC is 12-1. KC isn't going to win anything in the playoffs with Alex Smith at QB. It's fine to put up 20ish points against teams with QBs named Tuel, Fitzpatrick, Campbell, Pryor and Keenum. But when you face Peyton, Andrew Luck and Brady - you will need more than the 300 yards of total offense KC has been averaging.

[TroyF]

The Denver team has been a 'nice story', but it's nothing to brag about. Their only win against a .500 team is a 3 point win against Dallas at home. The combined record of their opponents is 26-40. KC has outscored their opponents by 104 while Denver has outscored their opponents by 125, but Denver has a loss and KC does not. The only point I'd agree on is that I'd like to see Denver beat a team with a pulse and this KC game will be their chance.

We have went through this before, and To me, the thing that separates Denver from KC is when the games are over. KC opponents have been within striking distance in the final three minutes in all but two of their games. Denver opponents have been finished with over 8 minutes left in the game all but twice.

While KC has had little injury trouble, Denver has had their top two defensive players out for most of the year. In the Dallas game, they played without 5 of their starting 11 defensive players in the second half. In the Colts game they played without their starting two offensive tackles. (And no, I'm not counting a Clady as one if them).

Luck WILL run out on the Chiefs. They were utterly dominated by the Bills this week, something that hasn't happened to Denver all year. Two defensive tds are nice, but that was against a bad football team. Let's see the Chiefs not only play someone, but let's see them have their first major injury and well talk about things. As it stands, I see them losing both games to Denver and San Diego.

If they beat the Donkies or Chargers, I will give them their due.

[BillJasper]

Actually, the Broncos beat Dallas on the road. If you think KC is better equipped to win right now than Denver, you should go to Vegas. I'm sure a ton of people would love to take your money. There's a reason Denver is 3-1 and KC is 12-1. KC isn't going to win anything in the playoffs with Alex Smith at QB. It's fine to put up 20ish points against teams with QBs named Tuel, Fitzpatrick, Campbell, Pryor and Keenum. But when you face Peyton, Andrew Luck and Brady - you will need more than the 300 yards of total offense KC has been averaging.

This is pretty much how I feel.

I love the Chiefs defense, but you can only ask it to do so much. The good teams are putting up mad points. In the Broncos only loss, they put up 33 points. Have the Chiefs put up 33 points in a game yet this year?

[Coffee Warlord]

Rogers hurt, looks like.

[Lathum]

watching without sound. Any speculation on Rodgers?

[Coffee Warlord]

Nothing yet.

Didn't look all that bad.

[BillJasper]

Looks like a shoulder injury. He threw a couple passes on the sidelines after it happened then they took him to the locker room.

[Coffee Warlord]

That was an incredible throw and catch.

[Coffee Warlord]

And left shoulder injury for Rodgers, return questionable.

[BillJasper]

Now Green Bay finds out how lucky they've been at the QB position over the last two decades. :lol:

[Vince, Pt. II]

...KC isn't going to win anything in the playoffs with Alex Smith at QB...

While I wholeheartedly agree with your larger point, don't forget that the Alex Smith led 49ers were a muffed punt away from the Super Bowl back in 2011.

[Coffee Warlord]

They might not need to, considering the Bears can't stop the run.

[BillJasper]

They might not need to, considering the Bears can't stop the run.

True.

Though I wonder how Lacy would feel if he had to carry the ball forty times tonight? :eek:

[BillJasper]

Made the mistake of letting Wallace throw the ball...

[Coffee Warlord]

This game is getting weird.

[Coffee Warlord]

Rogers officially out.

McCown looking damned impressive.

[cuervo72]

I bet ESPN is thrilled.

"Yes - GB vs CHI!!! Finally a good matchup!"

And you get...Seneca Wallace and Josh McCown.

[Lathum]

I wonder how many people like myself needed a decent game from Rodgers to win in fantasy.

[Lathum]

Should have challenged.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Actually, the Broncos beat Dallas on the road. If you think KC is better equipped to win right now than Denver, you should go to Vegas. I'm sure a ton of people would love to take your money. There's a reason Denver is 3-1 and KC is 12-1. KC isn't going to win anything in the playoffs with Alex Smith at QB. It's fine to put up 20ish points against teams with QBs named Tuel, Fitzpatrick, Campbell, Pryor and Keenum. But when you face Peyton, Andrew Luck and Brady - you will need more than the 300 yards of total offense KC has been averaging.

Funny you should bring this up. I took a flyer on the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl while in Vegas this summer. Made a $50 bet on them at 100-1 odds. I'm not counting my money by any means, but I'm pretty happy with my flyer right now.

[Coffee Warlord]

Dunno why the Packers are even bothering with throwing it. Bears can stack 8-9 in the box and still not stop them.

[Atocep]

If this were a Lovie coached game with McCown and Wallace at QB the score would be 6-3 with about 150 total yards between the two teams. Bears fans would be hoping the defense can score some points while Packers fans would be waiting on the bears offense to screw up.

[Carman Bulldog]

We have went through this before, and To me, the thing that separates Denver from KC is when the games are over.

You're right. We have been through this before. Denver against the three best teams they played last year including by your logic, when the game was over...

Atlanta 27-7 with 7 minutes left in 3rd quarter
Houston 31-11 with 2 minutes left in 3rd quarter
New England 31-7 with 5 minutes left in 3rd quarter

Against the best (and really only good) team they played this year...

Indy 36-17 with 13 minutes in 4th quarter (Win probability of 99.8%, going further back they had a win probability of 98.9% with 5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter despite how close Denver tried to make it late in the game)

So I think it's fair to say that Peyton Manning has proven that he can pick apart teams when they sit back in zone defense protecting large leads. But I don't think we can say that Denver has proven anymore the past two seasons than Kansas City has (or hasn't) this season.

And as easy as it is to say "call me when someone holds Denver's offense to less than 33 points", the same could just as easily be said when someone scores more than 17 points against the Chiefs defense. And while Denver has twice allowed more than 33 points, the Chiefs have never scored less than 17. It's quite likely that both of these will give at some point in the next few weeks.

I'm sorry, but smoke and mirrors alone doesn't get you to 9-0. They've only been involved in three one score games. Their ratio of fumble recoveries is a bit high around 66% instead of closer to 50%. But if you reference games being over early, if you check their win probability, it has usually been up above 85% before the 4th quarter in most games. More often than not, they are guilty of letting teams back into games, likely due to their slightly below average offense. Is that likely to come back and haunt them at some point? Yes.

With all of that said, I do think that Denver is the better team on paper, although as highlighted, I don't think they have proven any more on the field than Kansas City has. And after the struggles of the Saints this past week and the Seahawks the past few weeks, Denver likely vaults to or near the top of my Super Bowl favorites again, although that's as much of a product of being in the AFC and having to face only one of New Orleans, Seattle, San Francisco or Green Bay (with a healthy Rodgers) in the playoffs. I think even Detroit or particularly Carolina would be very bad match-ups for them as well. I would feel comfortable putting money on any of those six teams (okay, maybe not Detroit) in a five game series against Denver on a neutral field. But alas, the AFC provides a much easier path and while those other teams beat each other up, Denver should sail into the Super Bowl with a great chance to win it. Unfortunately for them, unlike most years where the game is at a tropical locale, this year's game should take place in cool temperatures and Manning is 0-4 in playoff games played below 40 degrees with 4 touchdowns to 9 interceptions in those games. So I don't know.

[mckerney]

Now Green Bay finds out how lucky they've been at the QB position over the last two decades. :lol:

Basically how I feel. Oh no, Packer fans have to watch ONE GAME with bad QB play.

[mckerney]

From the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel this Saturday.

Bob McGinn - Packers could win without Aaron Rodgers (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/team-could-win-without-rodgers-b99132791z1-230373561.html#)

They've never had to make do without possibly the finest player in the league. Losing Rodgers to major injury would be the nightmare of all nightmares. He makes everyone's job easier.

Yet, no organization would be better equipped to handle it than Green Bay.

Fools will cry that I'm jinxing Rodgers and the Packers by writing about this.

[hoopsguy]

Marion Barber would have gone out of bounds there.

[Danny]

Lacy is pretty beastly

[Arles]

That was pretty awful. Packers can handle losing both tackles, their best defensive player, 2 of their top 3 receivers, their TE and even 4 of their top 5 LBs. But, losing Rodgers was too much. Hopefully, he's not hurt too bad, but this Packer team is a wreck and I think it's time to start thinking about next year.

[Arles]

Funny you should bring this up. I took a flyer on the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl while in Vegas this summer. Made a $50 bet on them at 100-1 odds. I'm not counting my money by any means, but I'm pretty happy with my flyer right now.
100-1 odds is nice. I'd call and see if they'd give you 20-1 cash right now. Because in 3-4 weeks, I think the fairy tale will be over.

[jbergey22]

That was pretty awful. Packers can handle losing both tackles, their best defensive player, 2 of their top 3 receivers, their TE and even 4 of their top 5 LBs. But, losing Rodgers was too much. Hopefully, he's not hurt too bad, but this Packer team is a wreck and I think it's time to start thinking about next year.

What a tough situation. With Lacy and the offensive line playing so well it was only a matter of time before that offense was unstoppable.

I would speculate its a broken collarbone and will be 4-6 weeks before he comes back. I think if it wasnt a broken bone he would have been back out there.

[Arles]

What a tough situation. With Lacy and the offensive line playing so well it was only a matter of time before that offense was unstoppable.

I would speculate its a broken collarbone and will be 4-6 weeks before he comes back. I think if it wasnt a broken bone he would have been back out there.
Its funny, I told my buddy I thought it was a collarbone when it happened. As many have said, GB has been fortunate but this may be the season the injuries finally overtake them. With no Rodgers for a month+, they will be lucky to win 9 games. Maybe it's finally the Lions year - the Bears looked awful and I can't see them winning much.

[jbergey22]

I cant believe how much better Lacy looks as a NFL player than Richardson does. Would have never guessed it. I figured Lacy for a hammer it down your throat guy and picking up the tough yards but the speed he shows on the field has been surprising. His 40 times were pretty average. Must be one of them guys that plays faster on the field.

[Danny]

The Bus V2

[fantom1979]

Put together a spreadsheet of the last 23 teams that have lead the league in PPG allowed. My conclusion is that anything can happen in the playoffs. Also, I wonder if the Chiefs will be able to finish on top of PPG allowed with their remaining schedule. The Panthers are on their heals, but they still have to face Brees twice and Brady.

4863

[jbergey22]

On a side note I wonder when some of these NFL players will figure out it is not 1970 anymore and they cant act like it is anymore?

Ya, maybe the illegal hits have gone too far. Ya, maybe you should be able to allowed to motivate your teammates in a way the public may not approve of. But in working for a business(NFL) you are still required to follow their rules which are usually the influence of society. These players just act like complete morons when they refuse to follow rules and pay thousands dollar fines each week.

I probably shouldnt lump this psycho Incogito in with the rest of them but for some reason I think this just follows the same type of attitude a lot of them have. We could do that in 1970 so I am going to do it now. Clearly the NFL doesnt want more lawsuits down the road and the fans have chosen to prefer offense to defense so these players just need to get over it and move on to the present.

When they feel the need to take shots at players heads they should think of Muhammed Ali or talk with Corey Koskie and think of if they would want to end up like that down the road.

Vent over.

[jbergey22]

Put together a spreadsheet of the last 23 teams that have lead the league in PPG allowed. My conclusion is that anything can happen in the playoffs. Also, I wonder if the Chiefs will be able to finish on top of PPG allowed with their remaining schedule. The Panthers are on their heals, but they still have to face Brees twice and Brady.

4863

Could you do one with the offensive PPG? Id be curious if that looked very similar.

I know the 98 Vikings would be on that list w/o a super bowl ring along with 07 Pats.

[fantom1979]

Its funny, I told my buddy I thought it was a collarbone when it happened. As many have said, GB has been fortunate but this may be the season the injuries finally overtake them. With no Rodgers for a month+, they will be lucky to win 9 games. Maybe it's finally the Lions year - the Bears looked awful and I can't see them winning much.

Lions remaining schedule:
@Chicago
@Pittsburgh
Tampa
Green Bay
@Philly
Baltimore
NY Giants
@Minnesota

I could see them winning 6 of those games, but knowing the Lions they will somehow figure out a way to lose 6 of them.

[fantom1979]

Could you do one with the offensive PPG? Id be curious if that looked very similar.

I know the 98 Vikings would be on that list w/o a super bowl ring along with 07 Pats.

4864

[jbergey22]

4864

Thank You!

That is interesting. Each of them have 6 Super Bowl Wins. Maybe the biggest surprise was seeing 2 of the "highest scoring teams" not even make the playoffs.

[TroyF]

You're right. We have been through this before. Denver against the three best teams they played last year including by your logic, when the game was over...

Atlanta 27-7 with 7 minutes left in 3rd quarter
Houston 31-11 with 2 minutes left in 3rd quarter
New England 31-7 with 5 minutes left in 3rd quarter

Against the best (and really only good) team they played this year...

Indy 36-17 with 13 minutes in 4th quarter (Win probability of 99.8%, going further back they had a win probability of 98.9% with 5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter despite how close Denver tried to make it late in the game)

So I think it's fair to say that Peyton Manning has proven that he can pick apart teams when they sit back in zone defense protecting large leads. But I don't think we can say that Denver has proven anymore the past two seasons than Kansas City has (or hasn't) this season.

And as easy as it is to say "call me when someone holds Denver's offense to less than 33 points", the same could just as easily be said when someone scores more than 17 points against the Chiefs defense. And while Denver has twice allowed more than 33 points, the Chiefs have never scored less than 17. It's quite likely that both of these will give at some point in the next few weeks.

I'm sorry, but smoke and mirrors alone doesn't get you to 9-0. They've only been involved in three one score games. Their ratio of fumble recoveries is a bit high around 66% instead of closer to 50%. But if you reference games being over early, if you check their win probability, it has usually been up above 85% before the 4th quarter in most games. More often than not, they are guilty of letting teams back into games, likely due to their slightly below average offense. Is that likely to come back and haunt them at some point? Yes.

With all of that said, I do think that Denver is the better team on paper, although as highlighted, I don't think they have proven any more on the field than Kansas City has. And after the struggles of the Saints this past week and the Seahawks the past few weeks, Denver likely vaults to or near the top of my Super Bowl favorites again, although that's as much of a product of being in the AFC and having to face only one of New Orleans, Seattle, San Francisco or Green Bay (with a healthy Rodgers) in the playoffs. I think even Detroit or particularly Carolina would be very bad match-ups for them as well. I would feel comfortable putting money on any of those six teams (okay, maybe not Detroit) in a five game series against Denver on a neutral field. But alas, the AFC provides a much easier path and while those other teams beat each other up, Denver should sail into the Super Bowl with a great chance to win it. Unfortunately for them, unlike most years where the game is at a tropical locale, this year's game should take place in cool temperatures and Manning is 0-4 in playoff games played below 40 degrees with 4 touchdowns to 9 interceptions in those games. So I don't know.

What's funny is Denver was in EVERY one of those games with a chance to win with under 5 minutes left. Key turnovers hurt them. Beyond that, I notice you say the three best teams Denver played last year were those three. I notice you forget the POUNDED the eventual Super Bowl Champions in Baltimore in a game they led 31 to 3 at the end of the third quarter.

The first three games all happened at the beginning of the year.

But why the hell are we talking about this anyway? This Denver team is a far different one than the Broncos team of last year. There are 6 different starters on offense. That Denver team averaged 30 points a game and just under 400 yards. This Denver team is averaging 42 and 466.

No matter how likely the Colts were to win the game, Denver dominated the final quarter even without their starting two tackles and were in a good position to win the game. It was a game Denver had 100 more yards than the Colts, more first downs, and over a yard more per play. They also had 12 penalties for over 100 yards and 3 turnovers all in horrible spots. (2 were within 20 yards of their own goal line, 1 was on the Colts 2 as they were driving in for a score)

Look, the Colts won the damned game and they did it fair and square. I'm not making excuses for the loss, just pointing out there were mitigating factors and despite all of them, they were in position to win the football game. I still think Denver's biggest rival in the AFC west in San Diego. I fully expect SD and Denver to take a minimum of 3 out of 4 games from the Chiefs and I expect them to take all 4. The Chargers, unlike the Chiefs can put up 30 or more points against the Broncos. A few turnovers and who knows.

That said, as of now, I still fully expect Denver to win the AFC West and head into the playoffs with the one or two seed. They could be beat by any team, but I would rank the Chiefs virtually dead last of playoff teams I would expect them to lose to. (NE, Cincy, Indy all have a MUCH better chance)

I don't think Denver is a Super Bowl lock. I also think they are far better than you are giving them credit for being. I think they are a superior team to KC.

[jbergey22]

The reaction the poor Chiefs get. A good running game and a good defense is no longer considered the secret to success in the NFL.

I think people think that Alex Smith cant win a shootout which is probably the case. The thing about Alex Smith is he knows how to control the ball and limit turnovers. By his team controlling the ball like they do they would be able to limit the Broncos possessions which in turn would make the turnover battle that much more important.

In Kansas City I wouldnt count out the Chiefs in that type of game.

I dont think too many would argue that on paper the Broncos are the favorite. However as well have seen lately the favorite doesnt always win. On paper the Broncos should have a good defense, in reality teams are going through them like a hot knife on butter.

[fantom1979]

Thank You!

That is interesting. Each of them have 6 Super Bowl Wins. Maybe the biggest surprise was seeing 2 of the "highest scoring teams" not even make the playoffs.

That 2000 St. Louis team must have had some injuries on defense. They went from 4th to 31st to 7th in defense between 1999-2001.

I was also pretty interested in some teams that I didn't remember being as good as they were. I knew Seattle had made the superbowl a few years ago, but I had no clue they were the best offense in football that year.

I also had no clue the Colts had the best defense in 2007, also didn't remember Jacksonville being so good in the late 90's under Coughlin. I knew they were making the playoffs, but they went 36-12 from 1997-99.

[fantom1979]

The reaction the poor Chiefs get. A good running game and a good defense is no longer considered the secret to success in the NFL.

I think people think that Alex Smith cant win a shootout which is probably the case. The thing about Alex Smith is he knows how to control the ball and limit turnovers. By his team controlling the ball like they do they would be able to limit the Broncos possessions which in turn would make the turnover battle that much more important.

In Kansas City I wouldnt count out the Chiefs in that type of game.

I dont think too many would argue that on paper the Broncos are the favorite. However as well have seen lately the favorite doesnt always win. On paper the Broncos should have a good defense, in reality teams are going through them like a hot knife on butter.

There have been plenty of teams that have had success with QBs that were worse than Alex Smith (Trent Dilfer, Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme, and Mark Sanchez all come to mind). The defense and running game just need to be excellent. The Chiefs held two top ten scoring teams to 32 combined points. Denver will give them trouble, but Denver gives everyone trouble. I don't think Indy without Wayne or San Diego will bother the Chiefs anymore than Dallas or Philly did.

Would not be shocked if KC finished 14-2, and then anything can happen in the playoffs.

[Honolulu_Blue]

While I wish injury on no person, if Rodgers is injured I do hope he's out at least through Thanksgiving.

[britrock88]

Yeah, Incognito didn't think anyone would be able to detect his identity.

This deserves love.

[ISiddiqui]

KC really reminds me of the 2000 Ravens in a lot of ways. I do think they get a piss poor reaction.

[panerd]

That 2000 St. Louis team must have had some injuries on defense. They went from 4th to 31st to 7th in defense between 1999-2001.

I was also pretty interested in some teams that I didn't remember being as good as they were. I knew Seattle had made the superbowl a few years ago, but I had no clue they were the best offense in football that year.

I also had no clue the Colts had the best defense in 2007, also didn't remember Jacksonville being so good in the late 90's under Coughlin. I knew they were making the playoffs, but they went 36-12 from 1997-99.

From what I remember with the Rams post Super Bowl is they were in a lot of shootouts with that offense so they may give up 30 points but they would score 45. They also had Mike Martz taking over when Dick Vermeil retired after the Super Bowl win. I don't remember the specifics of their schedule but they were the best team in the football the previous year so my guess is that a 1st place schedule also factors in there a little bit.

Seattle's Super Bowl team was the height of Shaun Alexander's breakout so the offense was pretty potent and Jacksonville was pretty powerful with Fred Taylor and Brunell. Remember Marino's retirement party? I think they put up like 60 points on them in the playoffs?

[BillJasper]

KC really reminds me of the 2000 Ravens in a lot of ways. I do think they get a piss poor reaction.

I need to see them hold the Broncos in check before I start comparing them to the Ravens.

[cartman]

I hope Rodgers isn't out too long. My boss is a huge Packers fan, and we have a suite rented for Customer Appreciation Day when they come to play the Cowboys on Dec. 15th.

[jbergey22]

I hope Rodgers isn't out too long. My boss is a huge Packers fan, and we have a suite rented for Customer Appreciation Day when they come to play the Cowboys on Dec. 15th.

Sounds like a small break in the collarbone for Rodgers. They are projecting he will be out 3 weeks.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Sounds like a small break in the collarbone for Rodgers. They are projecting he will be out 3 weeks.

Let's push it out to 4, just to be sure.

[Coffee Warlord]

Nah, put him in there against Suh, who can end his season.

[Abe Sargent]

KC really reminds me of the 2000 Ravens in a lot of ways. I do think they get a piss poor reaction.

I think a better example might be the 1999 Jaguars, the 14-2 ones who were swept by the Titans in the year the Titans made it past the jags in the playoffs and went to the Bowl.

[BillJasper]

My memory is failing me a bit: has there ever been a 14-2 team that hasn't won their division? If the Chiefs were to lose twice to Denver they could very well be in that boat.

[jbergey22]

My memory is failing me a bit: has there ever been a 14-2 team that hasn't won their division? If the Chiefs were to lose twice to Denver they could very well be in that boat.

No. Only one 14 win team didnt have the best record in their conference(1998 Falcons). A few teams finished 2nd in their division with 12 wins.

[BillJasper]

No. Only one 14 win team didnt have the best record in their conference(1998 Falcons). A few teams finished 2nd in their division with 12 wins.

Thanks!

[TroyF]

KC really reminds me of the 2000 Ravens in a lot of ways. I do think they get a piss poor reaction.

See, to me they don't resemble each other at all. The Ravens defense was dominant in every way. They were the top rushing defense in the league. Top yards against defense in the league. Them and the Titans of that year were close to 500 yards better than the next best defensive team in the league.

Their offense has been almost criminally underrated as time goes on. They had a horrible, horrible stretch to start the season. By the time they changed QB's, they were an above average offense. They averaged over 330 yards and 27 points a game in the final 7 games of that year. The league averages were 319 yards a game and 20 points. They were outgained 5 times in 16 games. At the end of the year, the Ravens had a league average offense statistically and that was WITH the horrible 5 game stretch. So you combined one of the top defenses of all time, which dominated the run and the pass AND added an above average offense to the mix? Simply put, they were better than people gave them credit for and while I despise the Ravens and Ray Lewis, I sure hope history treats them better than being compared to this years Chiefs team.

The Chiefs of this year are 8th in total defense, 3rd against the pass and 24th against the run. They are also tops in points allowed. Good defense.

On offense, they rank 25th. 29th in passing yards and 14th in rushing yards. They have been outgained 4 times in 9 weeks. (Denver has been outgained 1 time this year, by 5 yards in a game they were missing 5 defensive starters) In all, this Chiefs team is 9-0 and has been outgained on the season. The last time a team was outgained and still won the Super Bowl is the team I would compare the KC Chiefs to. The 2001 New England Patriots.

That was the team that won the tuck rule game, won three playoff games by a combined 13 points and won it all. Now, could that happen with the Chiefs this year? Maybe. But that NE team finished 6th in total points per game. Currently, the Chiefs sit at 16th.

Keep in mind, the Chiefs supporters and the people who think the Broncos are overrated keep parroting the schedule and how similar they are. That's fine. When one team is crushing their opponents, ending games by the early part of the fourth quarter and is still getting healthy while the other is getting outgained, winning games with 3 minutes to go and has been injury free. . . I don't think it's rocket science what the future is going to hold here. While both teams may be overrated, one is overrated and quite a bit lucky. The odds the Chiefs are the 2001 Patriots are somewhere south of 10% in my opinion.

If you have a different one, I'm ok with that, but I don't see where you are coming from.

(FWIW, I'm going through the same thing with the Avalanche this year. I'm excited at their start and obviously love how the season is playing out. I will be cheering and hoping as long as I can this continues. But cmon, it's not going to continue when they have the best save percentage in the NHL despite getting outshot on a per game basis. I hope they hang onto a playoff spot before the inevitable snap back to reality happens. They are having a special year. Assuming they stay hot and get in the playoffs, do I think they have a shot against San Jose, a team just like the Broncos who hasn't performed in the playoffs? Ummm, no, no chance in hell.)

[Carman Bulldog]

What's funny is Denver was in EVERY one of those games with a chance to win with under 5 minutes left. Key turnovers hurt them. Beyond that, I notice you say the three best teams Denver played last year were those three. I notice you forget the POUNDED the eventual Super Bowl Champions in Baltimore in a game they led 31 to 3 at the end of the third quarter.

Your memory must be foggy, or we have a very different definition of "chance to win". Against the Falcons, the Broncos scored a touchdown with just over 3 minutes to get within a score and never got the ball back. Against the Texans, they scored with 3 minutes left to get within a score and got the ball back with 20 seconds left at their 10 yard line. Against the Patriots, they scored with just under 7 minutes to go to make it a two score game and only got the ball back once after that. While I haven't checked, I would say their Win Probability with less than 5 minutes to go in those games was never greater than 1%. I guess if you are using the Lloyd Christmas definition, then yeah, they had a chance.

And no, I don't count the Ravens as one of the three best teams they played. First off, the three aforementioned teams all had better records. Secondly, at the time they played, the Ravens had just fired their offensive coordinator and it was the first game with a new coordinator. Thirdly, the Ravens were coming off back-to-back losses heading into the game, including giving up 276 pass yards to a Charlie Batch led Pittsburgh Steelers. Other than getting on a hot streak a few weeks later (including a win over the Broncos), why would I count the Ravens?

The reason that we still talk about it is that to this day, the Broncos have still failed to impress against any relevant competition. I'm in total agreement with you that the Broncos, on paper, are a better team than the Chiefs. But people go around giving the Broncos all kinds of credit for being "elite" and speaking as if it's a fact that they are better than the Chiefs, while also blasting the Chiefs for winning against a weak schedule. The fact is that neither has done anything against a relevant team either last year or this year. I think the Broncos will win both games against the Chiefs but I think they should be closer than you suspect (particularly given your broad definition of chance to win). But until that time, lets stop pretending that the Broncos have done anything that the Chiefs haven't (except for lose a game that is).

I'm also not sure how you can say that they are better than I am giving them credit for. I said that they are clearly my AFC favorite, and possibly Super Bowl favorite. But at the same time, I can't give them credit for their play on the field against good teams, because their performances in those games have been very disappointing and they don't deserve any credit for that.

[Carman Bulldog]

I cant believe how much better Lacy looks as a NFL player than Richardson does.

YPC for their careers at Alabama...

Lacy 6.8
Richardson 5.8
Ingram 5.7

Edit: I know that it can't be used as a universal reference throughout college football but I think these three can be compared somewhat based on similar offensive lines, personnel and schemes.

[TroyF]

Your memory must be foggy, or we have a very different definition of "chance to win". Against the Falcons, the Broncos scored a touchdown with just over 3 minutes to get within a score and never got the ball back. Against the Texans, they scored with 3 minutes left to get within a score and got the ball back with 20 seconds left at their 10 yard line. Against the Patriots, they scored with just under 7 minutes to go to make it a two score game and only got the ball back once after that. While I haven't checked, I would say their Win Probability with less than 5 minutes to go in those games was never greater than 1%. I guess if you are using the Lloyd Christmas definition, then yeah, they had a chance.

And no, I don't count the Ravens as one of the three best teams they played. First off, the three aforementioned teams all had better records. Secondly, at the time they played, the Ravens had just fired their offensive coordinator and it was the first game with a new coordinator. Thirdly, the Ravens were coming off back-to-back losses heading into the game, including giving up 276 pass yards to a Charlie Batch led Pittsburgh Steelers. Other than getting on a hot streak a few weeks later (including a win over the Broncos), why would I count the Ravens?

The reason that we still talk about it is that to this day, the Broncos have still failed to impress against any relevant competition. I'm in total agreement with you that the Broncos, on paper, are a better team than the Chiefs. But people go around giving the Broncos all kinds of credit for being "elite" and speaking as if it's a fact that they are better than the Chiefs, while also blasting the Chiefs for winning against a weak schedule. The fact is that neither has done anything against a relevant team either last year or this year. I think the Broncos will win both games against the Chiefs but I think they should be closer than you suspect (particularly given your broad definition of chance to win). But until that time, lets stop pretending that the Broncos have done anything that the Chiefs haven't (except for lose a game that is).

I'm also not sure how you can say that they are better than I am giving them credit for. I said that they are clearly my AFC favorite, and possibly Super Bowl favorite. But at the same time, I can't give them credit for their play on the field against good teams, because their performances in those games have been very disappointing and they don't deserve any credit for that.

Falcons: Denver scored to make it 27-21 with over 3 minutes to play. The Falcons had a 6 yard pass play on a 3rd and 5 where Miller narrowly missed getting the sack.

Houston: After Denver scored to make it 31-25, Houston faced a 3rd and 5 on their own 24 yard line with 2:49 left. Shaub, under heavy pressure, hit Johnson for a first down which allowed Houston to kill the clock and win the game.

NE: With all three time outs left, Denver drives to the 14 yard line. McGahee fumbles, NE recovers. If Denver goes into score there, they don't have to kick onside and they would have been down three points.

I can promise you the win probability for Denver was well over 1% in all three of those games. Especially at the third down plays of the Falcons and Texans games.

As for the Broncos/Chiefs comparison, I'm not trying to say either has played a difficult schedule. If someone believes that wins and losses are the SOLE determining factor about how good of a team each is, they can do that. I try to look deeper. And the deeper I look, the more unimpressed I get. Against the same schedule as Denver, the Chiefs have been outgained in yardage. That doesn't bode well at all when they face better competition. If I were doing an "honest" power ranking based on who I thought was the better team, I would rank the Chiefs in the area between 10 and 12.

Lions, Packers, Saints, Panthers, Seahawks, 49ers, Patriots, Bengals, Colts, Broncos, Chargers.

I think all of those teams beat the Chiefs 7 our of 10 times right now. (The Pack losing Rodgers makes things slide the Chiefs way a bit, I'll give them up)

[BillJasper]

If I were doing an "honest" power ranking based on who I thought was the better team, I would rank the Chiefs in the area between 10 and 12.

Lions, Packers, Saints, Panthers, Seahawks, 49ers, Patriots, Bengals, Colts, Broncos, Chargers.



I think I'd rank them somewhere between five and seven. With the Lions, Saints, Panthers, Patriots, Bengals and Chargers you have to worry about which team is going to show up and where they're playing at.

But the Chiefs are slipping in my estimation because the offense doesn't seem to be progressing and the defense gave up a ton of yards this week.

[gstelmack]

My predication for Denver / KC - both QBs get hurt before their matchups, which renders the games meaningless to this debate so it can continue ad infinitum.

Again, we'll know in a bit if KC is for real, as they get to play Denver twice and answer all these questions.

[TRO]

Against the same schedule as Denver, the Chiefs have been outgained in yardage.

But yardage is deceiving as well. KC has had better starting field position than Denver has and held opponents to worse field position. Denver plays a faster pace which leads to more total yardage. In addition, in games like this past weekend against Buffalo, KC returns two plays for TDs which eliminate entire offensive possessions.

Carmen's view point here is pretty representative of mine. Denver appears to be a better team, but the difference isn't as far apart as you think it is. You can't use the schedule argument against the Chiefs and then ignore it for Denver.

I do think that the Chiefs have a few glaring holes on the team. Most notably is their offensive line. With Denver getting healthy up front, this is where I think Denver will likely beat KC. Especially when KC's receivers have shown an inability to beat their man at the line of scrimmage which limits Alex Smith from being able to complete quick passes.

The other big weakness of the team is the lack of speed from our secondary. Buffalo showed that if you can protect the QB and give him a little time, there are plays to be made vertically down the field. I don't think Denver can protect as well as Buffalo did and while Denver has a great passing game, it isn't built on vertical routes. KC's defense matches up very well here.

The KC offensive game plan of ball control drives is also a typically sound game plan against Peyton teams. If you can keep him on the side lines, he has a chance to get frustrated and be out of rhythm.

Ultimately, I'm expecting a split between KC & Denver as I think both teams win behind pass rushes aided by the home crowds.

[Matthean]

I cant believe how much better Lacy looks as a NFL player than Richardson does.

I've said it before, but of the three he was the most fun to watch. He is much more of a finesse back in a power back's body. His ability to read blocks/holes, his feet, and his spin move were all things that separated him from the other two. I still think there is something mentally/physically up with Richardson.

[RainMaker]

Lacy looks real good but the Bears defense is abysmal.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

As for the Broncos/Chiefs comparison, I'm not trying to say either has played a difficult schedule. If someone believes that wins and losses are the SOLE determining factor about how good of a team each is, they can do that. I try to look deeper. And the deeper I look, the more unimpressed I get. Against the same schedule as Denver, the Chiefs have been outgained in yardage. That doesn't bode well at all when they face better competition.

The KC offense certainly isn't going to blow the doors off anything, but part of the reason the offense doesn't have a ton of yards is because of their defense. They lead the league in takeaways by 2 and turnover margin by 5. That's a lot and it often means that the offense is playing with a short field on average a couple times a game (leading to easy if somewhat short scoring drives). In addition, the defense is scoring touchdown a game more often than not, meaning the offense doesn't get on the field in those situations for a longer period of time. You can't have as many drives when your defense is actually a scoring force for your team.

Also, the Chiefs have had a lot of games where they are grinding out yards on the ground in the 4th quarter to run the clock and lean on their defense. It doesn't get you flashy offensive numbers and shortens the game considerably, but it will get you wins. Charles and Smith have been clutch all year long in the 4th quarter when they were looking to finish off a game.

[MizzouRah]

Test

[Atocep]

The KC offense certainly isn't going to blow the doors off anything, but part of the reason the offense doesn't have a ton of yards is because of their defense. They lead the league in takeaways by 2 and turnover margin by 5. That's a lot and it often means that the offense is playing with a short field on average a couple times a game (leading to easy if somewhat short scoring drives). In addition, the defense is scoring touchdown a game more often than not, meaning the offense doesn't get on the field in those situations for a longer period of time. You can't have as many drives when your defense is actually a scoring force for your team.

Also, the Chiefs have had a lot of games where they are grinding out yards on the ground in the 4th quarter to run the clock and lean on their defense. It doesn't get you flashy offensive numbers and shortens the game considerably, but it will get you wins. Charles and Smith have been clutch all year long in the 4th quarter when they were looking to finish off a game.

The picture doesn't really change when you look at the KC offense on a per play basis. DVOA ranks them 18th.

[miami_fan]

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

I think this is a case of you changing your priorities than the league's culture changing. The true culture of the NFL has not changed despite all of the window dressing trying to suggest otherwise.

[chadritt]

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

You mean like abuse and harassment? News flash, there are laws about that even when its just verbal and emotional.

[Arles]

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.
To play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want a teammate who runs to the press when he gets mistreated instead of talking to the head coach. I think some of the things Incognito did are ridiculous and shouldn't be defended. But, had Martin gone to Philbin back in April and tried to resolve the situation that way - it would have been a lot better for the team than saying nothing and then waiting for a bigger event and going AWOL/to the press.

Now, if Martin did go to Philbin this summer and he didn't handle it - that's a different story altogether. But I haven't heard that as being the case so far.

[BillJasper]

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

Yes, no, maybe?

If you're going to say certain things, I think you should be prepared for the consequence of those actions.

This isn't the old days where I could go home to get away from being called "cockeye" because I have a lazy eye. These things follow you everywhere now and have a much larger audience because of the internet/social media. It reminds me of the kids who posted that they tore up some dudes house on the internet then the parents were furious with someone else mentioning it because it could screw up their kids futures.

We need to be teaching our kids early that using the internet/social media has ramifications. That it isn't an "anything goes" playground.

[Suicane75]

Why is that so surprising though? I started watching football in the early 80's and even then it was pretty common knowledge that if you got hurt, you'd be taken into the locker room and shot up so you couldn't feel it. Sprain your knee? Shoot it up and go out there and play till you fall down and we'll shoot you. And 20 years later people go into shock to find out that drugs and peds are a major part of the culture? People have been looking the other way or not looking at all, for forever.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Because it doesn't apply to Jon's life I'm guessing his answer is that it doesn't matter.

C'mon DT, quit trying so hard.

Just because one happens doesn't make the other somehow invalid or less "real."

Didn't say it wasn't real ... said it wasn't the OMG-The-Sky-Is-Falling-Impending-Disaster-We-Have-To-DO-Something-Dramatic situation that an increasingly unrealistic society tries to make it out to be.

[Suicane75]

You mean like abuse and harassment? News flash, there are laws about that even when its just verbal and emotional.

Then it would appear that there are other options besides suicide.

[spleen1015]

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

Of course not. All I am saying is you can't expect everyone to fight back like you're saying. For some it works, for many it doesn't.

[spleen1015]

To play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want a teammate who runs to the press when he gets mistreated instead of talking to the head coach. I think some of the things Incognito did are ridiculous and shouldn't be defended. But, had Martin gone to Philbin back in April and tried to resolve the situation that way - it would have been a lot better for the team than saying nothing and then waiting for a bigger event and going AWOL/to the press.

Now, if Martin did go to Philbin this summer and he didn't handle it - that's a different story altogether. But I haven't heard that as being the case so far.

Did Martin go to the media with the story? I haven't heard that. Didn't it all start because he left the team and people started digging into it?

You're just giving an example perhaps?

[Lathum]

To play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want a teammate who runs to the press when he gets mistreated instead of talking to the head coach. I think some of the things Incognito did are ridiculous and shouldn't be defended. But, had Martin gone to Philbin back in April and tried to resolve the situation that way - it would have been a lot better for the team than saying nothing and then waiting for a bigger event and going AWOL/to the press.

Now, if Martin did go to Philbin this summer and he didn't handle it - that's a different story altogether. But I haven't heard that as being the case so far.


But did he run to the press?

The way I heard it, and maybe am wrong, was it took a while for the press to get the story and even longer for Martin to give a statement. As far as I can tell he still hasn't spoken much about it. Seems more like the press running with it. I haven't seem or heard MArtin out there shouting about how he is a victim to anyone who will listen.

I would say he didn't go the the head coach for the same reason many victims don't go to the police, teachers, etc... fear of retribution.

[Arles]

Did Martin go to the media with the story? I haven't heard that. Didn't it all start because he left the team and people started digging into it?

You're just giving an example perhaps?
My point is that instead of allowing the team to deal with it internally when it occurred - he waited six months and then created a circus (I'm guessing he also provided some of the voice mails and texts when requested by the media). If I were a player on the Dolphins, I'd be pretty aggravated with both guys right now.

The key to me is what really went on. From what I can gather from a myriad of sources, Martin went to the team in the offseason about the "locker room conduct" and Philbin made changes to the team rules going into camp to address those. Everyone thought it was dealt with. Then, two months in, the team got hit with these voice mails and texts that Martin had never provided them before and it escalated. I don't know what's real and what isn't, but unless Martin provided all that to the team back in the summer, I'm not sure how anyone can be too hard on the Dolphins here. That is, unless Martin did provide all this information to Miami back in the offseason - that's a game changer.

As of right now, I see Incognito as an idiot that should be cut given this and his prior behavior and Martin as someone who handled this very poorly.

[Butter]

The key to me is what really went on. From what I can gather from a myriad of sources, Martin went to the team in the offseason about the "locker room conduct" and Philbin made changes to the team rules going into camp to address those. Everyone thought it was dealt with. Then, two months in, the team got hit with these voice mails and texts that Martin had never provided them before and it escalated. I don't know what's real and what isn't, but unless Martin provided all that to the team back in the summer, I'm not sure how anyone can be too hard on the Dolphins here. That is, unless Martin did provide all this information to Miami back in the offseason - that's a game changer.

As of right now, I see Incognito as an idiot that should be cut given this and his prior behavior and Martin as someone who handled this very poorly.

If this is what really went on, and you are suggesting that Martin should've kept going back to Dolphin staff, then you are being very naive. If Philbin did make some changes that were supposed to have "handled" it, and shit was still going on, why do you think Martin would have any faith in the organization to go back to them YET AGAIN and try to get this handled when that avenue didn't work the first time? That's classic bully-enabling behavior... "here this rule is changed, that should take care of it, now let me just go over here and forget all about that bullying bullshit that I didn't want to deal with in the first place."

I'm not saying Martin is totally blameless, because I also don't know all of the details, but this story makes the entire Dolphin FO look like garbage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Multiple Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9935801/multiple-miami-dolphins-players-support-richie-incognito)

[Arles]

But did he run to the press?

The way I heard it, and maybe am wrong, was it took a while for the press to get the story and even longer for Martin to give a statement. As far as I can tell he still hasn't spoken much about it. Seems more like the press running with it. I haven't seem or heard MArtin out there shouting about how he is a victim to anyone who will listen.

I would say he didn't go the the head coach for the same reason many victims don't go to the police, teachers, etc... fear of retribution.
Here's what we know:
1. He gets these threats back in April and doesn't tell the team.
2. Either he paid or was picked on to pay a big bar/trip tab in the offseason. Still not sure about these events.
3. He complains about random events without names to Philbin and Philbin changes some rules and talks to the team. He didn't suspend anyone as Martin never mentioned any names or specific behavior.
4. Incognito tries to do something to him again last week and Martin just bolts without saying anything to the team for a few days.
5. A few days later the team gets a complaint from Martin's representatives about Incognito with the texts and voice mails as evidence.
6. These texts/voice mails quickly make it to the press and Miami suspends Incognito.

Now, maybe the team leaked them to justify the suspension, but I doubt it. I'm guessing the leaks came from Martin's camp. Again, this just seems like a weird way to deal with all of it. Maybe Martin did feel he would be punished for saying something, I don't know. But, I can certainly understand some frustration with how he handled if from his current teammates. By leaving the team and filing a complaint midseason, he's created a media firestorm and cost them 2/5 of their OL.

I'm not trying to blame Martin for being the victim - Incognito certainly deserves his current criticism for this. I just would have felt better if Martin had indeed told the coach first. Right now, people are hammering Philbin for something that happened between two millionaire professional athletes in the offseason that he had no way to know about (unless he parsed through every Voicemail and text each player sent in the offseason). These weren't two kids in middle school who got bullied while the teacher left a blind eye and ignored it.

[chadritt]

Multiple Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9935801/multiple-miami-dolphins-players-support-richie-incognito)

Meh, multiple is apparently 2. One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez and one is a guy who's brand new to the team.

[Suicane75]

Of course not. All I am saying is you can't expect everyone to fight back like you're saying. For some it works, for many it doesn't.

It doesn't even have to be fighting back. I went into a mental institution rather than fight back, because there was no fight back. I never once thought of killing myself, and I'm not judging those who do, but I was really fucking low and I think I understand the mind set. There are solutions, and they take effort and time and the understanding that things will get better. You need to have people teach you that, you need to have a support system, even if it's small. And that was real life shit, it wasn't people on twitter or facebook. For parents to have no idea it was happening, yes, I put blame on them, that's shitty parenting. For parents to know it's happening and then say they had no way to stop it from happening and/or affecting their child, that's shitty parenting too.

You'll never be able to shelter people from the world, but systemically, from parents to teachers to friends and family, we have to do a much better job of preparing young people for life, good and bad, and we've done a shitty job at that this generation because we haven't had to deal with a lot of this shit ourselves. I would guess that a lot of parents in this generation started using social media around the same their kids did, and that they're learning about and seeing this stuff for the first time and thus aren't quite equipped to handle it. But at the same time it doesn't seem like most of them know better than to limit or forbid it entirely, which is completely on them.

[Suicane75]

I think I'm getting way off the Martin subject and responding more or less to Lathums posts, so I'll digress.

[Ben E Lou]

Multiple Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9935801/multiple-miami-dolphins-players-support-richie-incognito)I read this article earlier today. It's part of why I made this comment:Speaking of that culture, I've come to strongly suspect that the use of the n-word by white players is a whole lot more accepted "among the family" of the team than the general public realizes or could ever stomach.Pouncey--you know, the black guy in the bar who gives Incognito a pound about 10 seconds after he screams out the n-word--is defending Incognito. I don't think that's because Pouncey is any sort of sell-out or wuss, either. I think it's just accepted behavior, at least in the Miami locker room, and probably in quite a few others.

[miami_fan]

Hmm...anybody want to take a shot at explaining what the HS coach meant by this?

Some players support Incognito; HS coach not surprised Martin bullied - CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24192154/some-players-support-incognito-hs-coach-not-surprised-martin-bullied)

Martin's high school coach wasn't surprised that Martin was targeted.

"Bullies usually go after people like him,” Harvard-Westlake School coach Vic Eumont told the Palm Beach Post's Andrew Abramson. “With his background, he's a perfect target. ...

“Before [Martin] wasn't around Nebraska, LSU kind of guys,”Eumont said. “He's always been around Stanford, Duke, Rice kind of players. ... “In locker rooms full of Nebraska, LSU, Southern Cal players, Miami players, they'll look at this as a weakness. If he makes it through all this, and if he was encouraged to come back, he'd come back with a vengeance. ...

“I can see where somebody that's a bully will take advantage of [Martin], and rather than him say anything would just hold it inside. I can see where if somebody was bullying him he would take that to heart, and be concerned and think it was his fault."

[Lathum]

he's created a media firestorm and cost them 2/5 of their OL.



and again we are blaming Martin. Incognitos actions are to blame, not Martins reactions.

[Arles]

ESPN just posted this:

Jonathan Martin checked himself into a hospital after leaving the Miami Dolphins - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9936309/jonathan-martin-checked-hospital-leaving-miami-dolphins)

Miami Dolphins offensive tackle Jonathan Martin recently checked himself into a South Florida hospital to be treated for emotional distress that led the second-year player to leave the team last week, league sources told ESPN.

Martin was visited at the hospital by Dolphins coach Joe Philbin, and the organization arranged for his parents to travel to South Florida, the sources said.

Martin's hospital stay was brief before he returned to California with his parents, according to sources.

The specific treatment of Martin's emotional condition was not disclosed, but sources say it was related to his belief that he had been targeted during a sustained level of harassment from teammates, including suspended guard Richie Incognito.

Martin did not disclose to Philbin any specific incident of harassment or bullying when the coach made the hospital visit, sources said.

Incognito was suspended Sunday night by the Dolphins for conduct detrimental to the team when Martin's representatives provided voice mail and text evidence from April that the team agreed was inappropriate.

Martin remains in California, preparing a detailed document for his cooperation with a league investigation into a string of alleged multiple incidents that he believes led to his emotional distress and exit from the team, sources said.
This whole thing is just bizarre. Outside of a serious penalty to Incognito from the league - I'm not sure what else to think at this point.

[Butter]

Meh, multiple is apparently 2. One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez and one is a guy who's brand new to the team.

Also, Ellerbe's suggestion that Martin should've brought this behavior to the team's leadership council that included Incognito is laughable. I can only think that Ellerbe missed the week on "irony" in English class.

[Arles]

and again we are blaming Martin. Incognitos actions are to blame, not Martins reactions.
First, I want to make sure people don't think I'm defending Incognito. I'm not, he's a punk and deserves what is coming. However, had Martin dealt with this internally in the offseason - maybe Martin is still playing and the Dolphins were able to bring in a new guard for Richie boy.

By waiting until now, he's put the team in a very difficult position. He basically assumed they wouldn't handle it right, never game them a chance and then submarined the organization midseason. In the long run, maybe it is better for preventing this type of behavior that he handled it this way. It certainly got more attention with him leaving the team and checking into a hospital. But, I can understand if existing players are a little peeved at the way Martin handled it - esp the timing.

[Ben E Lou]

Hmm...anybody want to take a shot at explaining what the HS coach meant by this?

Some players support Incognito; HS coach not surprised Martin bullied - CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24192154/some-players-support-incognito-hs-coach-not-surprised-martin-bullied)Is this one really that hard? More NFL players come from football factories than good schools, and more come from tough situations than solid families. Martin's parents went to Harvard and he went to Stanford. The average NFL player would assume that he's soft.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Every so often there is a story where I feel so out of step with a lot of mass opinion that I feel very isolated as a person.

Anyhoo, this post on SoSH is the best take I've seen on the situation so far: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80409-rookie-hazing-bullying-miami-guard-incognito-indefinitely-suspended/?p=5108420

[miami_fan]

Is this one really that hard? More NFL players come from football factories than good schools, and more come from tough situations than solid families. Martin's parents went to Harvard and he went to Stanford. The average NFL player would assume that he's soft.

I get that. My point is he is saying this like it is something that NFL evaluators would need to take into consideration when building their teams. Obviously the Andrew Lucks are not having this issue but the way he is talking, NFL teams should be wary of players with a similar background as Martin.

[Ben E Lou]

I get that. My point is he is saying this like it is something that NFL evaluators would need to take into consideration when building their teams. Obviously the Andrew Lucks are not having this issue but the way he is talking, NFL teams should be wary of players with a similar background as Martin.I'm guessing that QB is a completely different animal than OL in terms of that sort of expectation. And Luck came from a football family, right? Martin came from an academic family, went to an elite private high school, then Stanford, and by several accounts didn't fit in the NFL culture. He seems to me like an incredibly obvious target.

[JonInMiddleGA]

One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez

Even given Pouncey's knack for picking the wrong side of an argument, he's not exactly a guy I'd think of as one who'd just rush right over to the horrible racist in the room & defend him just for kicks.

[DaddyTorgo]

Every so often there is a story where I feel so out of step with a lot of mass opinion that I feel very isolated as a person.

Anyhoo, this post on SoSH is the best take I've seen on the situation so far: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80409-rookie-hazing-bullying-miami-guard-incognito-indefinitely-suspended/?p=5108420

That dude fucking wins the internet on this whole thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is this one really that hard? More NFL players come from football factories than good schools, and more come from tough situations than solid families. Martin's parents went to Harvard and he went to Stanford. The average NFL player would assume that he's soft.

I'll be honest, I read even more into the HS coach statement than that.

I read it as him all but saying Martin does come off as soft (as opposed to players just assuming it). Hard to get tone from a written piece of course & maybe I'm just imagining things, but there was just ... something.

[jbergey22]

I get that. My point is he is saying this like it is something that NFL evaluators would need to take into consideration when building their teams. Obviously the Andrew Lucks are not having this issue but the way he is talking, NFL teams should be wary of players with a similar background as Martin.

Luck is a QB. They dont need to be tough;)

Actually, I am sort of kidding there and sort of being truthful. They do have to be tough but Id speculate with their red shirts(you cant touch the QB) that the team just already assumes they are soft from the position they play.

I am sure Martin was just different and maybe doesnt have a lot of similar interests as them guys. Maybe he was reserved. Who knows?

Martin probably would have fit in fine on a team with better leadership. I have a hard time believing someone like Jeff Saturday wouldnt have picked up on Martin feeling uncomfortable and helped him out. Kind of sounds like the Dolphins locker room has some serious issues if after 2 years they cant make a young talented player feel like part of the team.

[Lathum]

First, I want to make sure people don't think I'm defending Incognito. I'm not, he's a punk and deserves what is coming. However, had Martin dealt with this internally in the offseason - maybe Martin is still playing and the Dolphins were able to bring in a new guard for Richie boy.

By waiting until now, he's put the team in a very difficult position. He basically assumed they wouldn't handle it right, never game them a chance and then submarined the organization midseason. In the long run, maybe it is better for preventing this type of behavior that he handled it this way. It certainly got more attention with him leaving the team and checking into a hospital. But, I can understand if existing players are a little peeved at the way Martin handled it - esp the timing.

But the guy had by all accounts taken this behavior for so long. Seems like he was trying to " live with it" and just hit a breaking point. Can we really put the blame on him for the timing of it?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

but there was just ... something.

... something you wanted to read into it.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin-no-warning-signs-in-pre-draft-psychological-tests-wonderlic-110613

Martin’s lowest grades were given for social maturity (6), focus (7) and interpersonal style (7). Even so, those marks were well above those posted by most of Martin’s peers in the 2012 draft.

“Martin’s mental ability test results are consistently positive,” the report reads. “His matrices data place him well above the minimum typically associated with his position.

“He is not afraid to say what is on his mind if things are not going as they should. He is likely to be seen as a team enforcer if his level of play lets him assume this role.”

[Ben E Lou]

I'll be honest, I read even more into the HS coach statement than that.

I read it as him all but saying Martin does come off as soft (as opposed to players just assuming it). Hard to get tone from a written piece of course & maybe I'm just imagining things, but there was just ... something.Oh, sure. I can't imagine that he doesn't come off as soft. He's been described as things like soft-spoken, reserved, and intellectually curious. I suspect that those are personality traits that aren't exactly held in high regard in an NFL locker room. ;)

[cuervo72]

I'm guessing that QB is a completely different animal than OL in terms of that sort of expectation. And Luck came from a football family, right? Martin came from an academic family, went to an elite private high school, then Stanford, and by several accounts didn't fit in the NFL culture. He seems to me like an incredibly obvious target.

Soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful = soft. Loud, ragey meathead = MAN.

[Ben E Lou]

Soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful = soft. Loud, ragey meathead = MAN.In a locker room where this guy was one of the "leaders?"

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SW9C4qi5Y80?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Absolutely.

[Arles]

But the guy had by all accounts taken this behavior for so long. Seems like he was trying to " live with it" and just hit a breaking point. Can we really put the blame on him for the timing of it?
I can see that, to a point. I just think it would have been a lot easier for him to have dealt with this in the offseason and let the team know. Maybe the focus here should be on finding ways to notify teams about player behavior that are a little more approachable for teammates. Almost a "silent witness" type thing. Just spit-balling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... something you wanted to read into it.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin-no-warning-signs-in-pre-draft-psychological-tests-wonderlic-110613

Eh "wanted to read into it" dramatically overstates how big a shit I give one way or another, just to be really honest about it.

I just really came away from that piece feeling as coach was about two or three more quotes away from outing the guy, if you just really want to know what I was thinking initially. After reading a longer version (http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2013/11/05/jonathan-martins-high-school-coach-bullies-usually-go-after-people-like-him/) of the quotes, the coach really does come very very close IMO to saying outright that Martin was indeed "soft".

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I can see that, to a point. I just think it would have been a lot easier for him to have dealt with this in the offseason and let the team know. Maybe the focus here should be on finding ways to notify teams about player behavior that are a little more approachable for teammates. Almost a "silent witness" type thing. Just spit-balling.

Should he have gone to the Leadership Council, where Incognito was a member? Or the coaching staff that sent Incognito after him?

[Arles]

Should he have gone to the Leadership Council, where Incognito was a member? Or the coaching staff that sent Incognito after him?
I think the goal should be to try offer as many accessible ways to tell the organization about improper player behavior as possible. If you work at a place where an a**hat employee is harassing you and best buddies with your supervisor - you often have an HR group you can contact outside of that circle. Same goes for Internal Affairs with Police/firemen setups. Maybe something like this is needed for each team.

There should be a system in place to allow this kind of communication before a guy goes AWOL and checks into a hospital. But, I do think that allowing idiots like Incognito to be part of any kind of leadership council is laughable. Guy has been a punk everywhere that he's been.

[Lathum]

I can see that, to a point. I just think it would have been a lot easier for him to have dealt with this in the offseason and let the team know. Maybe the focus here should be on finding ways to notify teams about player behavior that are a little more approachable for teammates. Almost a "silent witness" type thing. Just spit-balling.

first off, I appreciat your though out responses.

I think in a situation like this hindsight is 20/20. I just don't think you can say the victim should have done this or the victim should have done that. To put one oz. of blame on them, or how they handled the situation is dead wrong IMO.

[Ben E Lou]

But, I do think that allowing idiots like Incognito to be part of any kind of leadership council is laughable. Guy has been a punk everywhere that he's been.You put a guy like that on a leadership council because you value his brand of "leadership."

[JPhillips]

You put a guy like that on a leadership council because you value his brand of "leadership."

Exactly. He wasn't added by mistake.