NFL Week 16

[panerd]

Guess there isn't a thread yet? Anyways nothing thread starter worthy I was just looking for the week #16 thread to complain about Fox's coverage of the Bengals game. I complained a few weeks back about Marv Albert. I will take him 7 times a week and twice on Sunday over the Dick Stockton/Ronde Barber duo. Completely lifeless. Same with the game audio. I guess I am just used to mostly AFC/CBS coverage but this is pretty second rate.

[rowech]

Guess there isn't a thread yet? Anyways nothing thread starter worthy I was just looking for the week #16 thread to complain about Fox's coverage of the Bengals game. I complained a few weeks back about Marv Albert. I will take him 7 times a week and twice on Sunday over the Dick Stockton/Ronde Barber duo. Completely lifeless. Same with the game audio. I guess I am just used to mostly AFC/CBS coverage but this is pretty second rate.

Game has passed Stockton by for sure. It is weird how much less fan noise, etc. you hear on Fox.

[BillJasper]

That was a Chiefs fumble, I don't care what the officials say.

[Radii]

Carolina's offense is non-existent for nearly the entire first half, but the defense is spectacular, one good run from Williams gives Carolina a 7-6 halftime lead. Brees sacked 5 times in the first half.

The saints did pull an impressive surprise onside kick earlier after their first FG.

[Julio Riddols]

Carolina's D is insane.

[Radii]

Holy shit that weather in Charlotte... was it even raining 2 plays ago when carolina kicked their FG? This is a monsoon...

[miami_fan]

As a native Floridian, THAT is what I call football weather in Carolina

[rowech]

The difference between the Bengals at home versus the road is amazing.

[cuervo72]

The difference between the Bengals at home versus the road is amazing.

As is the difference of the Vikings against the Bengals vs against the Eagles. :banghead:

[Thomkal]

Woohoo Saints! (sorry Radii) and Boo to Miami for their poor performance against a Thad Lewis led Bills. I've not been watching the game, but surprised at the QB change-not due to injury I think? Strange decision there no matter how bad Tannehill was playing.

[kingfc22]

How does Trendon Holliday still have a job? I swear I see him fumble or muff a return every week.

[rowech]

Woohoo Saints! (sorry Radii) and Boo to Miami for their poor performance against a Thad Lewis led Bills. I've not been watching the game, but surprised at the QB change-not due to injury I think? Strange decision there no matter how bad Tannehill was playing.

Tannehill got hurt.

[kingfc22]

Man, really want Carolina to win this game. I like the Niners chances a lot better in Carolina than in New Orleans if that scenario turns up.

[Radii]

I hate the call to punt there without having all 3 timeouts. Carolina probably done, ugh. Cam was limping earlier and looked pretty shaken up, I think he's hurt. I hope he is at least, otherwise he's just mentally broken down here and completely rattled.

[mckerney]

Not able to watch the Cowboys game, but how do you rush for -9 yards on 3rd and goal from the 1?

[mckerney]

As is the difference of the Vikings against the Bengals vs against the Eagles. :banghead:

I'm disappointed the Vikings couldn't play like this last week too. :(

[Thomkal]

*sigh*

[Apathetic Lurker]

Squish the fish !

[Thomkal]

Tannehill got hurt.

ah what I saw of the game they were saying it was not due to an injury to him.

[tucker rocky]

Cowboys leading 24-23, on surprise heroics from Romo.

[Radii]

What a drive!!!!!! I'm pretty sure that's a catch at least, Cam woke up at the right time after overthrowing everyone fro an entire half.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Boy, just a wacky day for the Chiefs. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. Doesn't matter too much other than a shot to their ego for a week. Will be interesting to see how many starters are rested next week. Probably expect Chase Daniel to get at least a half of play as well.

[Radii]

Carolina clinches a playoff spot!!!! Beat the Falcons next week to win the division and get the 2nd seed. What an amazing season.

Carolina sacked Brees 6 times and intercepted him twice. Luke Kuchely had 24 tackles (TWENTY FOUR) and an INT.

[Thomkal]

:::facepalm::: Nice opening drive for my beloved Cards ends in a INT after the ball bounced off the chest of the Cardinals receiver in the endzone.

[TroyF]

Boy, just a wacky day for the Chiefs. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. Doesn't matter too much other than a shot to their ego for a week. Will be interesting to see how many starters are rested next week. Probably expect Chase Daniel to get at least a half of play as well.

Considering they have nothing to gain at all from the game, they'd be freaking idiots to do anything else. If Charles even dresses for the game, they are moronic. For Denver, it comes down to the Ravens this afternoon. They beat the Pats and 1st seed is a lock, everyone should rest. If not, they'll have to come out and play.

I kind of disagree about the ego thing with the Chiefs though. Despite being critical of them all year, the last couple of weeks really impressed me. Poor competition, but they destroyed two teams. At home, against a team they may face in the playoffs, I expected better. They were mauled today. It wasn't a case of one or two plays not going their way. Indy controlled the ball, the clock, dominated third downs. The Chiefs had Charles and nobody else. That just won't get it done in a couple of weeks at Indy or Cincy.

Huge win for the Panthers. They are incredibly dangerous. Manning gets the record. Denver needs 17 points next week to tie the Patriots scoring record. Manning can break |Brees passing record with a 300 yard game. The playoffs for me really comes down to matchups for the Broncos. I think they can handle the Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals. The Colts and Patriots are different stories.

I expect the Texans are going to make a very quick return. Their defense is better than it looks right now, the offense has plenty of weapons. A good coach and decent QB play will see them jump back up to 11 win status quickly.

[NobodyHere]

I hate Baltimore, but if they win out then Indianapolis has a good chance of betting a bye for the playoffs.

[Galaril]

I hate Baltimore, but if they win out then Indianapolis has a good chance of betting a bye for the playoffs.

Doesn't look like that is going to happen down 14-0 already.

[Buccaneer]

I really hate to see Baltimore in the playoffs.

[Thomkal]

Cards shooting themselves in the foot-one INT in the end zone, one TD called back for offensive pass interference. Good thing Seattle's not getting anything going either.

[cuervo72]

SEA/ARZ gets stuck with the Chris Myers crew? This should be considered a better matchup than that.

[Lathum]

Man, no times outs for the Giants and the lions player tries to hold down a Giants receiver and takes a delay of game, lol. Gives the Giants 5 more yards and stops the clock, Giants kick a field goal.

Schwatz should be canned immediately if the Lions lose this game.

[Thomkal]

nice goal line stand for the Cards after a 3rd Palmer INT-another that was deflected. Then Seattle gets a penalty on the FG attempt-and then bounces the attempt off the goalpost for a miss! 3-3 at the half it looks like, anybody's game

[BillJasper]

Miami always destroys my hopes in the most special of ways! :lol:

Always great to see football in Green Bay during winter. Snow and yellowish-brown grass FTW!

[Thomkal]

Man, no times outs for the Giants and the lions player tries to hold down a Giants receiver and takes a delay of game, lol. Gives the Giants 5 more yards and stops the clock, Giants kick a field goal.

Schwatz should be canned immediately if the Lions lose this game.

I agree

[Coffee Warlord]

C'mon Steelers. Detroit's doing their part and losing, now do your part and beat GB.

[BillJasper]

NFL officials don't know the rules? Shocking!

[rowech]

NFL officials don't know the rules? Shocking!

As long as it took them I think they got it right for what they could do given how it was all called.

[jbergey22]

As long as it took them I think they got it right for what they could do given how it was all called.

They completely botched everything about that call. Just handed the Packers 7 points basically.

[rowech]

They completely botched everything about that call.

If you mean not calling the defensive hold on Polamalu I agree. Steelers had possession I agree but once it was ruled that way they couldn't do anything.

[jbergey22]

If you mean not calling the defensive hold on Polamalu I agree. Steelers had possession I agree but once it was ruled that way they couldn't do anything.

I dont know. But the Steelers should have gotten the ball at half the distance from the spot of the foul.

I was hoping for a review just so the review referee would have told them how ridiculous their ruling was.

[rowech]

I dont know. But the Steelers should have gotten the ball at half the distance from the spot of the foul.

I was hoping for a review just so the review referee would have told them how ridiculous their ruling was.

The worst part of the play, and the part that messed the whole thing up was them not recognizing the Steelers had possession of the ball when they lateral ed it. Once they messed it up, there was no saving it.

The game is just too fast for the officials anymore.

[SirFozzie]

Huge Stop by the Pats D.. really playing well this week

[hoopsguy]

Lions being Lions.

[NobodyHere]

And Stafford throws another TD! :banghead:

[Lathum]

Eli being Eli

[Solecismic]

Strange to see a guy with two Super Bowl MVPs going through a season where a lot of his troubles are with his decision-making.

[mckerney]

Wow, bullshit review in Seattle. Seahawks just got screwed.

[kingfc22]

The Seahawks finally fail to pull a win out of a loss.

[Suburban Rhythm]

So, if Tomlin potentially costing the Ravens 4 potential points is allegedly going to cost a 4th round pick, what will the league owe the Steelers for outright botching a call that became 7 points?

[Radii]

GO CARDS!!

So apparently if Seattle loses next week (at home vs St Louis), Carolina wins, and San Francisco wins out, Carolina can still get the 1 seed in the NFC. Seems incredibly unlikely, but this was a start!

[ColtCrazy]

Impressed with the Colts today. Best performance since their Bronco win.

In fantasy, I'm up 70. But he still has Foles, McCoy, Vernon Davis, and Crabtree.
I have either Cutler or Kaepernick. I'm thinking Kaepernick right now to offset anything Davis/Crabtree do.
Will feel better after the Eagles game about things.

[BillJasper]

So, if Tomlin potentially costing the Ravens 4 potential points is allegedly going to cost a 4th round pick, what will the league owe the Steelers for outright botching a call that became 7 points?

A "tough shit"?

[Lathum]

Strange to see a guy with two Super Bowl MVPs going through a season where a lot of his troubles are with his decision-making.

This is going to sound like an excuse since most of us know I am a huge Giants fan, but he has had no time to throw the ball, the O- Line has been terrible.. That being said he does try to force it to much instead of taking a sack, but that is just the way he is. I will also say probably 10-13 of his picks were receivers running the wrong route, tipped passes, etc...Still though, a brutal season.

[Jon]

GO CARDS!!

So apparently if Seattle loses next week (at home vs St Louis), Carolina wins, and San Francisco wins out, Carolina can still get the 1 seed in the NFC. Seems incredibly unlikely, but this was a start!

Or if Carolina loses and the rest happens, San Francisco gets the number one overall seed....

[EagleFan]

Poor call in that Seattle game. That ball clearly hit the ground.

[Solecismic]

This is going to sound like an excuse since most of us know I am a huge Giants fan, but he has had no time to throw the ball, the O- Line has been terrible.. That being said he does try to force it to much instead of taking a sack, but that is just the way he is. I will also say probably 10-13 of his picks were receivers running the wrong route, tipped passes, etc...Still though, a brutal season.

That last one, though. He misread the coverage and overthrew into cover-2 on first down when they needed about 15 yards for a winning field-goal try. I don't think Eli of past years makes those mistakes. Something's wrong with his game prep.

[EagleFan]

Today we've secretly swapped Eli Manning and Tony Romo, let's see if anyone notices...

[kingfc22]

Does anybody want the NFC North?

[mckerney]

Matt Flynn! Woo woo woo!

[Lathum]

Why on earth are the Giants throwing the ball?

[Lathum]

I am very conflicted. I can't root against the Giants but I want them to lose to get a better draft pick.

Plus my 2 up boss is a huge Lions fan so it will be fun to needle him.

[jbergey22]

Stafford doesnt have the X-factor to be great. Talent yes.

[mckerney]

Anyone want to strangle the announcer in the Steelers - Packers game when he kept going on about how, "Tomlin didn't want to have to burn that timeout and stop the clock for the Packers," when the previous play was an incomplete pass? Because I did.

[Solecismic]

I don't see Green Bay as having beaten Pittsburgh. Yet the announcers are calling Detroit eliminated. Is there just a delay in results out of the tundra?

[mckerney]

Nick Perry! Woo woo woo!

[Lathum]

I don't see Green Bay as having beaten Pittsburgh. Yet the announcers are calling Detroit eliminated. Is there just a delay in results out of the tundra?

Giants beat the Lions

[EagleFan]

Looks like the Packers let them score there. Gives them some time at least.

[jbergey22]

Looks like the Packers let them score there. Gives them some time at least.

When you have Flynn you can afford to do that:)

[mckerney]

Giants beat the Lions

But the Lions should have the tiebreaker over Chicago if they both finish 8-8 and Green Bay goes 7-8-1.

Edit: Ah, nevermind. Forgot Green Bay and Chicago play next week so one of those team will finish ahead of Detroit.

[Solecismic]

Giants beat the Lions

Yes. That's the game I had on. So Chicago is 8-6, Detroit 7-8, Green Bay 7-6-1, Detroit holds the tie-breaker over Chicago at 8-8. If Green Bay wins, Detroit's out, but what am I missing?

[EagleFan]

Nice return, rough face-plant at the end.

[jbergey22]

I am very conflicted. I can't root against the Giants but I want them to lose to get a better draft pick.

Plus my 2 up boss is a huge Lions fan so it will be fun to needle him.

Yeah, this situation pretty much sucks. Vikings have been there since week 3. I just try to think of all of the busted draft choices so it makes me feel better when they win.

[Solecismic]

Yes. That's the game I had on. So Chicago is 8-6, Detroit 7-8, Green Bay 7-6-1, Detroit holds the tie-breaker over Chicago at 8-8. If Green Bay wins, Detroit's out, but what am I missing?

Oh... Green Bay plays Chicago next week. That's what I'm missing.

[EagleFan]

What are they doing? They could have had 4 shots at the endzone.

[mckerney]

5 yard penalty and 10 second run off? NICE!

[bhlloy]

What the hell was Flynn doing letting 6 seconds run off the clock before snapping the ball? That whole last minute was braindead but he just decided not to snap it for some reason. Inexcusable.

[EagleFan]

That end game was a complete cluster. 1st and goal with plenty of time for 4 tries and they end it that way, wow.

[SirFozzie]

Man, THREE Eff You TDs for the Pats in the final three minutes (2 of them defensive).

That's nuts.

[tucker rocky]

What the hell was Flynn doing letting 6 seconds run off the clock before snapping the ball? That whole last minute was braindead but he just decided not to snap it for some reason. Inexcusable.

I guess the ref had to wake Flynn up there at the end.
Still though, Flynn could've spike the ball for one last shot on 4th down.

[EagleFan]

I guess the ref had to wake Flynn up there at the end.
Still though, Flynn could've spike the ball for one last shot on 4th down.

That was the other odd thing, almost seemed like the ref at least wanted to say... "dude, wtf, the clock is running"

[weegeebored]

Yes. That's the game I had on. So Chicago is 8-6, Detroit 7-8, Green Bay 7-6-1, Detroit holds the tie-breaker over Chicago at 8-8. If Green Bay wins, Detroit's out, but what am I missing?The Bears play the Packers the last week so one of them has to win (although I suppose there could be another tie).

[mckerney]

The Bears play the Packers the last week so one of them has to win (although I suppose there could be another tie).

A tie between GB and Chicago would put Chicago in at 8-7-1 over Detroit's 8-8.

[TroyF]

There are plenty of diverse fans here and we don't have 100% agreement about a lot of things.

That said, outside of a couple of Packers/Bears/Vikings fans, is there anyone here that thinks Jim Schwartz gets the most out of his players and should remain coach for another season of the Detroit Lions?

[weegeebored]

Yeah, I missed the previous posts about Chi and GB playing the last week in replying to Jim's post. And to paraphrase Denny Green, "The Lions are who we thought they were."

[mckerney]

There are plenty of diverse fans here and we don't have 100% agreement about a lot of things.

That said, outside of a couple of Packers/Bears/Vikings fans, is there anyone here that thinks Jim Schwartz gets the most out of his players and should remain coach for another season of the Detroit Lions?

I was kind of hoping he'd hang around long enough to get into a fist fight with Jim Harbaugh.

[SirFozzie]

Ok, Here's I think the playoff scenarios

(note: In a weird twist of fate, NO team controls their own destiny, they all need help from other teams)

And no, I'm not throwing ties in there, because.. well fuck ties :)

Baltimore qualifies with:

WIN and loss by either Miami or San Diego
LOSS and Miami, San Diego and Pittsburgh Losses

Miami Qualifies with
WIN and either loss by Baltimore OR Baltimore and San Diego wins (three way tiebreaker)

San Diego Qualifies with:
WIN and Baltimore and Miami Losses

Pittsburgh Qualifies with
WIN, Chargers, Ravens and Dolphins All Lose.

[Vince, Pt. II]

What a crazy day of football. I believe the scenario for the 1-2-5-6 seeds in the NFC is thus:

Seattle:
-1 with a win next week
-2 with a loss next week, a Carolina win and one or more 49er losses
-5 with a loss next week and 2 49er wins

Carolina:
-1 with a win next week, a Seattle loss next week and 2 49er wins
-2 with a win next week and at least one loss by the 49ers
-2 with a loss next week and a loss by the Saints next week
-5 with a loss next week, a win by the Saints next week and at least 1 49er loss
-6 with a loss next week, 2 49er wins and a Saints win next week

San Francisco:
-1 with 2 wins and a loss by Carolina and Seattle next week
-2 with 2 wins, a loss by Seattle and a win by Carolina next week
-5 with 2 wins OR 1 win and a loss by the Saints next week
-6 with 1 win and a win by the Saints next week OR 2 losses and a Saints loss next week
-Out of the playoffs with 2 losses AND a Saints win next week

New Orleans:
-2 with a win next week and a Carolina loss next week
-5 with a win next week, a Carolina win and at least one 49er loss
-6 with a win next week, a Carolina win and 2 49er wins
-Out of the playoffs with a loss and an Arizona win next week

Arizona:
-5 with a win next week, a 49er loss tonight and a Saints loss next week
-6 with a win next week, a 49er win tonight and a Saints loss next week
-Out of the playoffs with a loss next week

Does that about cover it, not accounting for ties?

[Lathum]

I wonder if the distractions are getting to Seattle

[cartman]

It is crazy with as bad as the Cowboys have played at times this season, they are only a total of 6 points away from being 12-3 right now instead of 8-7. Also crazy that for the third straight season, they have a win or go home game for both teams on the last day of the season against a fellow NFC East opponent.

[TroyF]

That last one, though. He misread the coverage and overthrew into cover-2 on first down when they needed about 15 yards for a winning field-goal try. I don't think Eli of past years makes those mistakes. Something's wrong with his game prep.

Eli has always been:

1) Inaccurate
2) Turnover prone

All these are career numbers:

QB A: 63.5% completion rate, 3.01% (INT+Fumble/drop back rate)
QB B: 65.4%, 3.14%
QB C: 58.6%, 4.59%
QB D: 62.0%, 3.83%
QB E: 64.6%, 3.60%

A is Brady, B is P. Manning, D is Brett Favre, E is Tony Romo, C is Eli.

Sure, he's played in Jersey, but Favre and Brady haven't exactly had great weather either. He had a couple of years where he got the turnovers in control AND completed a good rate of passes. In 2008, 2009 and 2011 he was pretty damned good. Still could have been more accurate, but the people who say he isn't a top 5 QB actually had a tough time getting around those stats. The problem the supporters face is he's been a QB for 9 seasons, not 3. (full time starter in 9, I'm not counting his rookie season of 9 games)

Problem for those of us who think these problems have been present forever is the 2 Super Bowls and those amazing 4th quarters. Those cannot be denied. So do I say he's a great QB because he has the two titles and a guy caught a football on the side of his head or do I say he's been pretty damned average for much of his career?

Neither. I'll say he's an above average QB with some monumental flaws who overcame them to win two titles. If he had the back story of Romo and not the back story of being in QB royalty, that's the story that would be played. The Eli haters can't stand him being compared in the same breath as his brother and they are right. They are just missing the overall narrative and aren't enjoying the things he has done enough.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Also, tonight in my fantasy football championship:

Team A (+11 right now):
Jay Cutler
Martellus Bennet

Team B (-11):
Nick Foles
Brandon Marshall

[tucker rocky]

There are plenty of diverse fans here and we don't have 100% agreement about a lot of things.

That said, outside of a couple of Packers/Bears/Vikings fans, is there anyone here that thinks Jim Schwartz gets the most out of his players and should remain coach for another season of the Detroit Lions?

Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but the Bengals have stuck with him.
Lions should do the same with Schwartz.

GM for the Lions(whomever it is), needs to do a better job of drafting, and bringing in better players out of FA.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Eli has always been:

1) Inaccurate
2) Turnover prone

All these are career numbers:

QB A: 63.5% completion rate, 3.01% (INT+Fumble/drop back rate)
QB B: 65.4%, 3.14%
QB C: 58.6%, 4.59%
QB D: 62.0%, 3.83%
QB E: 64.6%, 3.60%

A is Brady, B is P. Manning, D is Brett Favre, E is Tony Romo, C is Eli.

Eli's not in the same universe as the other guys posted, statistically. I'd be interested to see statistical comps in these categories. What QBs are similar to him, even historically? Eli's a really hard guy to slot when it comes to legacy, because he DOES have those rings.

[Matthean]

Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but the Bengals have stuck with him.
Lions should do the same with Schwartz.

So they can have the same amount of playoff success the Bengals have under Lewis?

[DaddyTorgo]

If Eli doesn't have the last name that he has I'm pretty confident he doesn't have a starting QB job with that sort of completion % and turnover rate.

[Lathum]

If Eli doesn't have the last name that he has I'm pretty confident he doesn't have a starting QB job with that sort of completion % and turnover rate.

Jesus what an ignorant statement. I guess we just throw out the 2 titles, most 4th quarter comebacks in a season, Superbowl MVPs, etc...

[Lathum]

Can someone tell Philly fans occasionally the other teams players are actually hurt.

[TroyF]

Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but the Bengals have stuck with him.
Lions should do the same with Schwartz.

GM for the Lions(whomever it is), needs to do a better job of drafting, and bringing in better players out of FA.

I thought Marvin would get fired, bur I wasn't sure he deserved it. I guess we didn't get the 100% consensus. I think the Lions should have won that division with ease this year. I don't think it was about the players he had at his disposal.

[Thomkal]

Holy Crap my beloved Cards win in Seattle and are still alive for the playoff race! That's with Palmer throwing 4 INT's and perhaps a gift from the refs on not one but two calls. Two crazy kicks from the Seattle kicker-on a chip shot FG after a penalty called back the first try which was successful, and then the almost missed XP when Seattle scored its TD.

Cardinals defense was absolutely incredible, especially after last week when they gave up all those yards to Tenn and let them back in the game.

[Coffee Warlord]

North is ours for the taking and it's looking like blowout. C'mon.

[Butter]

Also, tonight in my fantasy football championship:

Team A (+11 right now):
Jay Cutler
Martellus Bennet

Team B (-11):
Nick Foles
Brandon Marshall

I have a 24 point lead, but my opponent has Colin Kaepernick going tomorrow night. I do not feel good about this.

[RedKingGold]

If the Eagles hold on, and the 49ers lose tomorrow, the NFL will have three "win-and-in" games next week: PHI-DAL, SFO-ARZ, GBY-CHI.

[Lathum]

awesome to see Chris Polk get some PT.

[gstelmack]

What a drive!!!!!! I'm pretty sure that's a catch at least, Cam woke up at the right time after overthrowing everyone fro an entire half.

Yeah, deciding to drop his target about 2 feet on every throw really paid off there at the end.

[TroyF]

Eli's not in the same universe as the other guys posted, statistically. I'd be interested to see statistical comps in these categories. What QBs are similar to him, even historically? Eli's a really hard guy to slot when it comes to legacy, because he DOES have those rings.

It's really hard because of how many times the NFL has changed. Kenny Stabler led Oakland to a 10-3 record (they played another game he didn't start) with an INT rate of over 8.

Pro Football Reference said that after 9 years Eli for his career is similar to these players:

David Garrard, Jake Delhomme, Carson Palmer, Big Ben, Chad Pennington.

They say this similarity score tries to take the quality and shape of a career into account. I think in our time, Big Ben is probably the closest comparison, but he's not close to the turnover machine Eli has been. I mean, on a historical scale, there just aren't a lot of comparisons. It does make him brutally difficult to rate. Take away the catch off the side of the head and Romo completing a pass to eliminate the Super Bowls and the SB MVP's? Then what do you have? The completion percentage and turnover rate are incredibly poor.

I think he has a starting job, but I don't think he has one in NY.

It's funny how the Super Bowl changes things. Flacco has been an average to below average QB for years. Rahim Moore takes a garbage angle and the Ravens win the Super Bowl and he's now the highest paid QB in the game. In baseball we seem to be able to seperate "he had a good playoff run and a couple of good seasons, but he's not a great player" The QB in football doesn't go through that. Win a Super Bowl and all of your sins are forgiven.

[Desnudo]

Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but the Bengals have stuck with him.
Lions should do the same with Schwartz.

GM for the Lions(whomever it is), needs to do a better job of drafting, and bringing in better players out of FA.

Hard to do when 90% of your salary cap is tied up in three players

[DaddyTorgo]

I think he has a starting job, but I don't think he has one in NY.


Fair enough.

I mean you look at his completion percentage among active players and he's below Tavaris Jackson and in the neighborhood of Chad Henne.

Just saying.

[jbergey22]

If you guys are going to judge a quarterback on one stat please use yards per attempt rather than completion percentage unless of course we want to consider Chad Pennington the best QB in NFL history.

Eli has a real bad line this year. Lets try to not overreact. That guard-center-guard combo he is currently playing behind is brutal.

Eli is safely on that list of QBs you can win a Super Bowl with which isnt a huge list.

[weegeebored]

I can't recall the last time I turned off the tv when the Bears are on but they are laughable. Simply pathetic. The NFL gets what they want -- Bears v Packers for the division. My money is on the Packers. I don't need to say anything more about Trestman.

[rowech]

I can't recall the last time I turned off the tv when the Bears are on but they are laughable. Simply pathetic. The NFL gets what they want -- Bears v Packers for the division. My money is on the Packers. I don't need to say anything more about Trestman.

Bears season comes down to whoever made the decision to bench McCown. Not sure who it was in the end but it's on whoever made that decision.

[TroyF]

If you guys are going to judge a quarterback on one stat please use yards per attempt rather than completion percentage unless of course we want to consider Chad Pennington the best QB in NFL history.

Eli has a real bad line this year. Lets try to not overreact. That guard-center-guard combo he is currently playing behind is brutal.

Eli is safely on that list of QBs you can win a Super Bowl with which isnt a huge list.

Yards per pass attempt? you mean the one he's ranked 18th this year and 14th among active QB's? That statistic.He's finished 10th, 4th, 8th and 9th in that stat in his career. The other 5 years have been below the top 1/3 of all QB's.

I'm not overreacting, he's been incredibly poor in his career when it comes to accuracy and turnover rate. The accuracy impacts that yards per attempt total by the way. If we go yards per completion, Eli jumps into the top ten.

He's an enigma. How he gets remembered now is what happens over the next few years. He's had as many "blah" seasons as pro bowl ones. Elway and P Manning got better over time. Their best seasons happened at age 37. Eli does that, we'll all forget this conversation. My guess is he is what he is. A decent QB, not a great one. Good in his best years, below average in his worst years. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[EagleFan]

4 months ago I would have thought a winning season was a pipe dream.

[tucker rocky]

4 months ago I would have thought a winning season was a pipe dream.

Just think, Chip Kelly originally turned down the Eagles to stay at Oregon.
Gus Bradley, DC of Seattle was at the top of the Eagles list, after Kelly.

Kelly does an about face, agrees to become the Eagles HC, and Bradley is chosen as the Jaguars new HC.

You have to wonder what if Kelly stayed at Oregon, and Bradley was chosen as the HC for the Eagles.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Also, tonight in my fantasy football championship:

Team A (+11 right now):
Jay Cutler
Martellus Bennet

Team B (-11):
Nick Foles
Brandon Marshall

According to live stat tracking:

Jay Cutler 10 pts
Nick Foles 20 pts

Martellus Bennett 13 pts
Brandon Marshall 13 pts

Team A: 130
Team B: 129

Let's hope stat corrections don't screw me over.

[Carman Bulldog]

Eli is safely on that list of QBs you can win a Super Bowl with which isnt a huge list.


Does this list also include Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer? What about Big Ben and Flacco? How close were Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselbeck, Donovan McNabb and Rex Grossman to joining this list?

[jbergey22]

Does this list also include Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer? What about Big Ben and Flacco? How close were Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselbeck, Donovan McNabb and Rex Grossman to joining this list?

Sure.

[jbergey22]

Yards per pass attempt? you mean the one he's ranked 18th this year and 14th among active QB's? That statistic.He's finished 10th, 4th, 8th and 9th in that stat in his career. The other 5 years have been below the top 1/3 of all QB's.

I'm not overreacting, he's been incredibly poor in his career when it comes to accuracy and turnover rate. The accuracy impacts that yards per attempt total by the way. If we go yards per completion, Eli jumps into the top ten.

He's an enigma. How he gets remembered now is what happens over the next few years. He's had as many "blah" seasons as pro bowl ones. Elway and P Manning got better over time. Their best seasons happened at age 37. Eli does that, we'll all forget this conversation. My guess is he is what he is. A decent QB, not a great one. Good in his best years, below average in his worst years. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Has very little to do with Eli. I just think completion percentage is a lousy way to judge a QB. Understand?

[bhlloy]

I thought Marvin would get fired, bur I wasn't sure he deserved it. I guess we didn't get the 100% consensus. I think the Lions should have won that division with ease this year. I don't think it was about the players he had at his disposal.

Yeah, this. Very talented team, completely undisciplined and poorly coached from what I can see. Should have walked a terrible division this year.

[TroyF]

Has very little to do with Eli. I just think completion percentage is a lousy way to judge a QB. Understand?

I think just ANY statistic is a lousy way to judge any player in any sport. But if you ask me to rank importance, I would place a premium on the statistic.

I've heard people give it a bad rap before. Kind of reminds me of how many people hate the "quality start" statistic in baseball. It can be a 4.5 ERA man, it's a horrible way to judge a pitcher, right? Umm, no, 6 innings, 3 runs gives your team a good chance to win in this day and age. And most "quality starts" are actually far better than the bottom of the scale.

In this day and age, if you can't hit on 60% of your passes, you will have a tough time winning consistently. The obvious exception over the last two years is Andrew Luck. Thing is, his splits are wild right now. 45% one game, 51% then next and then 70% like today. He was also over 60% until Reggie Wayne went down. He's also a kid who is inconsistent. He'll be over that rate soon.

Accuracy is huge in this league right now. It's not the only way I judge anyone, but that stat is near the top of the list when evaluating any QB.

OK, back to FOF where I can evaluate QB's Peyton just retired :(

[ColtCrazy]

I'm up 11 now going into tomorrow. I have Kaepernick; he has Davis/Crabtree. Really hoping Kaepernick offsets them and throws some TDs to people not named Davis or Crabtree.

Doesn't help the guy in the final is a punk that's already texting me classics like "it's on bitch" and stuff like that. smh

[Solecismic]

Seems like a good possibility that Arizona becomes the third 11-5 team to miss the playoffs under the modern playoff format.

So we'll get some screaming about expanding the playoffs. Which might, with possible outcomes on Sunday, get 8-8 Pittsburgh in on the other side. I really don't like the idea of 8-8 wild-card teams.

An odd fact: Cleveland will have 4 or 5 wins for the sixth consecutive season. This is unprecedented during the 16-game schedule era. No team has ever had that small a range of records over a six-year period.

Two teams (Detroit, 1973-78; Dallas, 1976-81) have had that small a range of wins over a six-year period, but both streaks began in the 14-game era and ended in the 16-game era.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'm up 11 now going into tomorrow. I have Kaepernick; he has Davis/Crabtree. Really hoping Kaepernick offsets them and throws some TDs to people not named Davis or Crabtree.

Doesn't help the guy in the final is a punk that's already texting me classics like "it's on bitch" and stuff like that. smh

I think your only hope is Boldin. Kaepernick's TD distribution this year:

Vernon Davis 12
Anquan Boldin 5
Michael Crabtree 1

[Danny]

Won my championship in one money league today. Not bad. 5 money leagues the last 3 years and 3 championships.

[RainMaker]

I won mine tonight. First win in many years. I make the playoffs all the time, guess I was due.

[jbergey22]

Accuracy is huge in this league right now. It's not the only way I judge anyone, but that stat is near the top of the list when evaluating any QB.

:(

Yards per attempt has accuracy factored into it but it also rewards QBs that actually take some chances down the field.

As I mentioned Chad Pennington is the #1 accuracy QB of all time. I dont think too many consider him anything more than an average NFL quarterback.

Accuracy isnt that important if you are accurate throwing 2 yard passes.

Of course each team has their own gameplans and expectations out of the QB position. Id say yards per attempt/int %/sack % would be what I consider the most important characteristics in a winning QB.

[Julio Riddols]

Bears season comes down to whoever made the decision to bench McCown. Not sure who it was in the end but it's on whoever made that decision.

That and a TERRIBLE defense.

[Julio Riddols]

Seems like a good possibility that Arizona becomes the third 11-5 team to miss the playoffs under the modern playoff format.

So we'll get some screaming about expanding the playoffs. Which might, with possible outcomes on Sunday, get 8-8 Pittsburgh in on the other side. I really don't like the idea of 8-8 wild-card teams.
.

I'd love to see them just take the top 12 teams, period. Top 4 division winners league wide get byes, last 8 teams seeded by win% + opp win%.

Arizona really doesn't deserve to miss the playoffs. They're probably one of the most dangerous teams out there and it would be pretty shitty to see Pittsburgh make it while the Cards sit at home.

[Comey]

My fantasy team completely imploded in the playoffs. Last week, it was the madness of choices (I have AP and Reggie Bush, Jay Cutler and Matt Ryan). We still almost came back, due to Justin Tucker.

This week, every single player, save for Demaryius Thomas, way underperformed. Sigh...regular season champs, and very little to show for it.

[JPhillips]

Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but the Bengals have stuck with him.
Lions should do the same with Schwartz.

GM for the Lions(whomever it is), needs to do a better job of drafting, and bringing in better players out of FA.

The big positive for Marvin is that he's basically the GM as well as the coach. I don't think Marvin's coaching is that great, but firing him would mean a return to the 90s org chart.

[MizzouRah]

One FF league I drafted my own players.. came in next to last.

The other FF league, the CPU drafted my players and Vernon Davis needs 3 points and I win the whole thing.

I guess I need to listen to the CPU from here on out. ;)

[rowech]

My fantasy team completely imploded in the playoffs. Last week, it was the madness of choices (I have AP and Reggie Bush, Jay Cutler and Matt Ryan). We still almost came back, due to Justin Tucker.

This week, every single player, save for Demaryius Thomas, way underperformed. Sigh...regular season champs, and very little to show for it.

For the fourth time in eight seasons I will have lead my league in record and points during the regular season only to lose in the title game.

[lungs]

In one of my leagues we had a debate on draft day about how many teams should make the playoffs. I argued for 4 out of 10 against 6 out of 10 to not reward mediocre regular season teams. 6 out of 10 ended up winning out.

The 5th seed and 6th seeds(me) made the championship

[gstelmack]

Seems like a good possibility that Arizona becomes the third 11-5 team to miss the playoffs under the modern playoff format.

So we'll get some screaming about expanding the playoffs.

I hate all this screaming, it's just a manufactured controversy. Win your division and you are in.

If the NFL actually wants to fix this, they'll go to two 8-team divisions in each conference, each playing 14 home-and-home games in the division, and 2 games outside it (rotating other division or other conference, I don't care). With TV, who cares about how often some other team visits your stadium? But now you can actually compare most teams within a division and get a decent wildcard spectrum, and the wildcards allow some team who had a harder 2 outside games to make the playoffs anyway.

[TroyF]

Yards per attempt has accuracy factored into it but it also rewards QBs that actually take some chances down the field.

As I mentioned Chad Pennington is the #1 accuracy QB of all time. I dont think too many consider him anything more than an average NFL quarterback.

Accuracy isnt that important if you are accurate throwing 2 yard passes.

Of course each team has their own gameplans and expectations out of the QB position. Id say yards per attempt/int %/sack % would be what I consider the most important characteristics in a winning QB.

Ok, i get it, Chad Pennington.

Quick question, anyone want to guess what his yppa was for his career? 7.2. Eli sits at 7.1 right now.

As I said, I look at all stats, not just one. It is also i mportant. To look at the style of team, type of offense ran, etc.

[cubboyroy1826]

Won my league last night which is the first time I have one my own league. I think we are 7 or 8 years in and I have made the playoff most of the years but could not come up with a win.

[SteveMax58]

I'm a Giants fan but I wouldn't really dispute that Eli is "just" an above average NFL QB who has made plays in key situations over his career. I'm not sure that makes him Peyton or Brady, but it certainly puts him above Carson Palmer & David Garrard to me.

Of course, how did he get into those tight games that needed clutch play with 30 seconds left? Not always his fault, but sometimes they were. Thats why I (and I hate to say this) have to say that Romo is at least on par with Eli, if not a better QB. Scoring 28 points in the 1st 3 qtrs, then having your terrible defense allow the other team to come back, which you then proceed to throw a "game-killing" INT is still not a bad "net showing". Naturally, you'd prefer your QB make the plays at the end of the game, but if Dallas has a somewhat average defense, that game never needs QB heroics and thus, no INT.

Did Eli get his 2 championships while getting help from a very good defense (at least during the playoff stretch)? Of course he did. But thats true of Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Montana, Bradshaw, Ben, and Brees and their respective defenses in their SB years.

I guess my only point in this long-winded post here is to highlight two things:
1. Eli is a very good(not great) QB. When surrounded by receivers that he is on the same page with, he can execute well. When that isn't the case, Eli makes "bad" decisions such as relying on his receivers to always hit their routes regardless of the coverage scheme (something I dont think his brother does...he simply finds a better checkdown option). To that end, I actually question if Eli even really looks at the coverage beyond pre-snap reads. And perhaps the reason he doesn't is actually physical, such as eyesight or something, as his inaccuracy at times would also lead me to think. Perhaps his eyes cant focus fast enough so has to rely on his intuition...IDK, I just know that I don't think he "doesn't know better" and I have a hard time believing he doesn't put in the time during the week.
2. Many "great" QBs wouldn't be so great if not for having a defense that can shut down the opposition, thus enabling them to be on the stage. If Montana's 49ers were a bottom 1/3 defense, he can't win multiple SBs. Same with Bradshaw, Aikman, Brady, and Big Ben. So Eli isn't unique in that sense. By contrast Peyton, Brees, and Marino all had typically non-great defensive units and thus their more limited SB opportunities (though certainly Brees & Peyton have time left for that).

[BillJasper]

I also think Eli needs a better running game to be effective.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Von Miller torn ACL

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Von Miller torn ACL

Ouch.

On the other side, the Chiefs have said that Justin Houston will be healthy and ready to go for the playoffs. He'll be a bit rusty, but definitely a major upgrade over Zombo and will take some of the pressure off Hali to do everything. Despite yesterday's rough game, I think the Chiefs can make some noise in the playoffs.

[Radii]

AFC's 6 seed scenarios:

http://i.imgur.com/g2UXSXM.png

[Solecismic]

Using my quarterback metric, which is adjusted for league averages each season and correlations of statistics to wins, Chad Pennington is a great quarterback with a career shortened by injury.

Where he's unusually low is yards per catch. We're talking Sam Bradford low - below 11 yards per catch. It's very hard to find true comparables for Pennington. Maybe he was the ultimate game manager, and game managers don't win games by themselves.

I look at Eli Manning, and he's well down the list (going into this season - he'll undoubtedly drop) in the metric - 126th of 316 who have a qualifying season. What stands out in his range of the list is his record (86-59 - now 92-68) and the MVPs. It's hard to compare raw statistics from different eras, but guys who have his general numbers profile include Randall Cunningham (without the feet), Ron Jaworski, or, on generally losing teams, Vinny Testaverde.

The Hall rewards longevity, which Manning is headed toward, and the high-profile awards and leading winning teams.

This would be the top ten in my metric, 100 or more starts post-1973, all-time:

Young, P.Manning, Warner, Montana, Rivers, Brady, K.Anderson, Brees, Roethlisberger, Stabler.

With the exception of Anderson, these guys all had an extremely high winning percentage. Anderson was a high risk/reward guy who played on more average teams - though not as extreme a case as Dan Fouts, who is 11th on this list.

[SteveMax58]

I also think Eli needs a better running game to be effective.

That would help if they could get to even just slightly below average.

But there's a difference between a a minimal running game (like Brady or Peyton has) and an absolutely terrible running game like Eli has. If it isn't the HBs all being on IR, its the terrible o-line that can't push a wagon downhill.

David Wilson was really supposed to be a dynamic player that would also be part of the passing game. Its hard to call him a bust (yet) but if he can't stay on the field (whether its fumbles or injuries) then we have to acknowledge he is a part time HB and won't "carry the load" so to speak (I never saw him that way, but the depth we had behind him would seem to suggest the Giants thought of him that way).

Giants got all kinds of cap room to make this offseason. Much as I love him, Tuck has to go, probably Nicks as well, and we have to draft o-line and a couple of HBs.

I've been critical of Coughlin in the past but I'm not sure if the talent on that roster is even 8 win talent. Until I am, I'd leave him in place unless we're talking about getting rid of Eli (hard to imagine we wouldn't give him 1 more season).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

While I'm assuming the Chiefs suck this week, I am getting a chuckle out of all the praise Tony Romo and Dallas are getting for beating Washington by one point. Last week, Washington sucked. This week, beating them by one point gets you 10 minutes on SportsCenter.

[SteveMax58]

While I'm assuming the Chiefs suck this week, I am getting a chuckle out of all the praise Tony Romo and Dallas are getting for beating Washington by one point. Last week, Washington sucked. This week, beating them by one point gets you 10 minutes on SportsCenter.
Yeah its funny how that works. And if they lost to Washington by 1 point, Romo would once again not know how to win in December. But as of right now, he knows how to.

[TroyF]

Ouch.

On the other side, the Chiefs have said that Justin Houston will be healthy and ready to go for the playoffs. He'll be a bit rusty, but definitely a major upgrade over Zombo and will take some of the pressure off Hali to do everything. Despite yesterday's rough game, I think the Chiefs can make some noise in the playoffs.

Ya know, I'm pessimistic right now about Denver's playoff chances. With that said, the reaction I had to this was "so what"

He's been a decent player this year, but far from great. 5 sacks in 9 games. He hasn't been the force he was last year. At this point, I don't think he's the difference between Super Bowl or out in round 1.

With Denver, it will all be about the offense. If Manning can't get 30 or more, Denver will not advance. Really that simple.

[TroyF]

Using my quarterback metric, which is adjusted for league averages each season and correlations of statistics to wins, Chad Pennington is a great quarterback with a career shortened by injury.

Where he's unusually low is yards per catch. We're talking Sam Bradford low - below 11 yards per catch. It's very hard to find true comparables for Pennington. Maybe he was the ultimate game manager, and game managers don't win games by themselves.

I look at Eli Manning, and he's well down the list (going into this season - he'll undoubtedly drop) in the metric - 126th of 316 who have a qualifying season. What stands out in his range of the list is his record (86-59 - now 92-68) and the MVPs. It's hard to compare raw statistics from different eras, but guys who have his general numbers profile include Randall Cunningham (without the feet), Ron Jaworski, or, on generally losing teams, Vinny Testaverde.

The Hall rewards longevity, which Manning is headed toward, and the high-profile awards and leading winning teams.

This would be the top ten in my metric, 100 or more starts post-1973, all-time:

Young, P.Manning, Warner, Montana, Rivers, Brady, K.Anderson, Brees, Roethlisberger, Stabler.

With the exception of Anderson, these guys all had an extremely high winning percentage. Anderson was a high risk/reward guy who played on more average teams - though not as extreme a case as Dan Fouts, who is 11th on this list.

I can't think of a more difficult sport to rate players along history Jim. Love your ranking (Ken Anderson was really, really good)

My homer glasses scream what about Elway, but the reality is he will never do good on any statistical rating system. There is such a monumental split between Reeves/Elway (9 seasons) and anyone other than Reeves/Elway split. (7 seasons) (for those who know history and say that Reeves was Elways coach for 10 years, that's correct, but in 1987 he turned the offense over to Shanahan for a year)

For example, yards per pass attempt. With Reeves as coach, Elway finished top 10 2 times. With Shanny in '87 and the other 6 years, Elway finished in the top ten 7 times.

Just a monumental waste. Ugh. Still makes me angry.

[Warhammer]

Anderson and Stabler are two of the most criminally underrated players in NFL history.

[Solecismic]

What about Romo? The guy has never had anything but solidly above-average seasons. He'll be in this top ten next year, as he's now over 100 starts. But 64-46 isn't a great record. He was undrafted. I think of him as Kurt Warner without quite the extreme high of his first three years in the NFL or the ring.

The 1-3 in the playoffs must kill perceptions - especially since his one bad playoff game was the blowout against Minnesota right after his only playoff win. Dallas fans are used to post-season success, and Romo doesn't have any.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Romo out the rest of the year??? https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/415230451582656512

[kingfc22]

Romo out the rest of the year??? Twitter / AdamSchefter: Cowboys QB Tony Romo has been ... (https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/415230451582656512)

Tebow time! :popcorn:

[Scoobz0202]

Romo out the rest of the year??? https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/415230451582656512

Reminds me of when he beat the 49ers with a broken rib and a collapsed lung or something. Came from behind to beat the Skins with a possible season ending back injury? Dude is pretty tough even with his "flaws."

Wonder what the injury is.

edit: And this sucks. I hate hearing back injury because I hope this doesn't linger the rest of his career. And now watch Jerry Jones keep Jason G. around and uses this as an excuse to do it.

Maybe now Demarco Murray will get 25+ carries.

[markprior22]

With all the shit Romo takes, I would think the line would move about 7 points in the Cowboys favor with him out. Come on Kyle!!!

[EagleFan]

What about Romo? The guy has never had anything but solidly above-average seasons. He'll be in this top ten next year, as he's now over 100 starts. But 64-46 isn't a great record. He was undrafted. I think of him as Kurt Warner without quite the extreme high of his first three years in the NFL or the ring.

The 1-3 in the playoffs must kill perceptions - especially since his one bad playoff game was the blowout against Minnesota right after his only playoff win. Dallas fans are used to post-season success, and Romo doesn't have any.

Essentially 1-6 in playoff games (0-3 in week 17 winner take all games and 1-3 in official playoff games).

[SteveMax58]

What about Romo? The guy has never had anything but solidly above-average seasons. He'll be in this top ten next year, as he's now over 100 starts. But 64-46 isn't a great record. He was undrafted. I think of him as Kurt Warner without quite the extreme high of his first three years in the NFL or the ring.

The 1-3 in the playoffs must kill perceptions - especially since his one bad playoff game was the blowout against Minnesota right after his only playoff win. Dallas fans are used to post-season success, and Romo doesn't have any.

Romo is a solid QB on a poorly managed team imho.

He isn't Drew Brees, but to me, the playcalling in Dallas basically asks him to do his best Brees impression. Sometimes its really, really, good. Sometimes not so good. But very rarely is Romo really awful. And he's pretty darn accurate with the ball as well.

I certainly enjoy when the Cowboys lose, and even moreso when its a Romo INT inside of the last 2-3 minutes, but he's a top 1/3 QB to me. I'd put him higher than Flacco no problem.

[TroyF]

What about Romo? The guy has never had anything but solidly above-average seasons. He'll be in this top ten next year, as he's now over 100 starts. But 64-46 isn't a great record. He was undrafted. I think of him as Kurt Warner without quite the extreme high of his first three years in the NFL or the ring.

The 1-3 in the playoffs must kill perceptions - especially since his one bad playoff game was the blowout against Minnesota right after his only playoff win. Dallas fans are used to post-season success, and Romo doesn't have any.

Romo crushes Eli in essentially ever statistical metric. Completion %, yards per attempt, TD rate, INT Rate, etc. He's 6 fourth quarter comebacks behind Eli in 42 less career starts.


They met head to head in the playoffs in 2007, with Romo's only INT happening on a 4th and 11 with 16 seconds left in the game. Romo's team actually outgained Eli's by a large chunk. But Eli led the game winning drive, Romo didn't and the rest is history.

He gets so much crap for every loss and they act as though those losses take away all the wins. For example, last year the Cowboys go 8-8. They are outscored by 24 points. Of the 8 Cowboy wins, Romo has 5 game winning drives. This, of course, makes it to where the loss at the Redskins in the final week becomes his fault. If he'd just sucked more earlier in the year, the Cowboys wouldn't have been good enough to have him destroy their season with a bad INT.

For my money, I'll take Romo over Eli right now despite the lack of a Super Bowl title. He's a better QB. All of the people saying he sucks should wait until Dallas loses him for awhile.

[kingfc22]

Shoulder to the chest is a flag now too eh. Fucking bullshit call.

[Thomkal]

Go Falcons! We all want a Arizona/SF "win and you're in" game next week right? I know I do :)

[EagleFan]

Is this the final game at the mistake by the bay?

[bulletsponge]

wtf is that on Bermans head?

[Grover]

Is this the final game at the mistake by the bay?

Indeed.

[Wolfpack]

Go Falcons! We all want a Arizona/SF "win and you're in" game next week right? I know I do :)

Eh, I'd rather see the Niners win so that Carolina's longshot of getting home field has a chance of happening. :D

[Thomkal]

Eh, I'd rather see the Niners win so that Carolina's longshot of getting home field has a chance of happening. :D


<----puts Wolfpack on ignore :D

[NobodyHere]

Is Jim Schwartz fired yet?

[ColtCrazy]

I would feel a bit bad for Romo if Orton somehow beats the Eagles and then wins a playoff game at home. I don't think that's going to happen since the Cowboys still have to play D, but still.

[TroyF]

ummmmm, ouch.

[TroyF]

ummmmmmm, wow.

[RedKingGold]

What a way to close out Candlestick!

[ColtCrazy]

Woot!!! I won my championship. Kaepernick came though and more than offset Crabtree and Davis got blanked. First time I've won any league in 20 years!!!!

[Carman Bulldog]

For all the blame Romo gets when the Cowboys lose, his touchdown to interception ratio in their 7 losses this year is 17:3.

[Vince, Pt. II]

What a crazy end. What the hell were the Falcons doing passing the ball there? And what the hell was Navorro Bowman doing on the field on an onside kick?

Phew. Going to need to play much better than that next week in Arizona.

[NobodyHere]

Kelly Hall is Matthew Stafford's gf.

http://www.yardbarker.com/media/f/5/f5bf244c841e35b73381200a770c5f0d827d5997/xl/greatest-tweet-ever.jpg

[DaddyTorgo]

Haha

[SteveMax58]

Kelly Hall is Matthew Stafford's gf.

http://www.yardbarker.com/media/f/5/f5bf244c841e35b73381200a770c5f0d827d5997/xl/greatest-tweet-ever.jpg

Can't say I blame the Detroit fans that paid $$$ to see them drop yet another game they needed against a Giants team with nothing on the line.

Its crazy to think that at 6-3, sitting in 1st place with the only healthy starting QB in their division that they would drop 5 of 6. They did well against their division but they are highly erratic outside of it. Remind me of the Giants in that they seem to find new ways to play below (already lowered) expectations.

I think they needed a Schwartz type of coach to come in & change the attitude there but thats not a free pass on doing everything else needed to win. And at the end of the day, Detroit has a fairly talented team that should be winning 10+ games (especially with the only healthy QB in the division). It just seems like Schwartz & the staff there are not preparing well enough. Either thats because they aren't putting in the time (doubtful) or they really aren't smart enough to figure out strategies for the rest of the NFL (outside their division) in a given work week. They are playing close, but they are coming up short for a reason.

[Thomkal]

::::sighs at Atlanta:::

Go Tampa then? they nearly beat the Saints way back in Week 2. But that was at home, be very difficult to beat them in the Super Dome.

[Danny]

Well stafford does have good taste in women at least

[hoopsguy]

Essentially 1-6 in playoff games (0-3 in week 17 winner take all games and 1-3 in official playoff games).

That number would mean more to me if I knew the spreads on those games. Hard to hold it against him losing games on the road where the team is a 7+ point dog, but those +/- 3 point lines or losing home games would weigh more heavily in terms of evaluation.

Along with the actual stats in those games. Performances like the ones against Denver earlier in this year are hard to put on the QB.

I'm guessing the numbers will actually come back pretty morbid, based on my recollections of some of those games. But if people want to crush Romo for being "unclutch" I think there is a better body of work to find than the overly simplistic "1-6 in sample set I choose as relevant" argument.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Along with the actual stats in those games. Performances like the ones against Denver earlier in this year are hard to put on the QB.

2006 playoffs @SEA: 17/29 for 189 & 1TD/0 INT, lost 21-20
2007 playoffs vs NYG: 18/36 for 201 & 1TD/1 INT, lost 21-17
2008 wk 17 @ PHL: 21/39 for 183 & 0TD/1 INT, lost 44-6
2009 playoffs vs PHL: 23/35 for 244 & 2 TD/0 INT, won 34-14
2009 playoffs @ MIN: 22/35 for 198 & 0 TD/1 INT, lost 34-3 (6 sacks)
2011 wk 17 @NYG: 29/37 for 289 & 2 TD/1 INT, lost 31-14 (6 sacks)
2012 wk 17 @WAS: 20/37 for 218 & 2 TD/3 INT, lost 28-18

That's most of it, one thing I couldn't see from the box score archive I used was how many fumbles he had (himself, not the team)

[gstelmack]

Lions send fans playoff tickets after missing postseason - NFL - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20131223/detroit-lions-playoff-tickets.ap/?eref=sihp)

[HomerSimpson98]

Romo is a solid QB on a poorly managed team imho.

He isn't Drew Brees, but to me, the playcalling in Dallas basically asks him to do his best Brees impression. Sometimes its really, really, good. Sometimes not so good. But very rarely is Romo really awful. And he's pretty darn accurate with the ball as well.



This.
`
Having said that, I cant think of another QB in the league that has more "WTF was that pass?! WHY TONY WHY?!" moments at the end of games than Romo.

[weegeebored]

For all the blame Romo gets when the Cowboys lose, his touchdown to interception ratio in their 7 losses this year is 17:3.I'm not a fan of Ken "Hawk" Harrelson, but he has a saying that I think is spot on. When talking about hitters' statistics he says, "Don't tell me what you hit, tell me WHEN you hit it." This probably applies to Romo. Some guys are afraid of the spotlight and the pressure. Need I mention the botched FG hold?

[Buccaneer]

I would think Philip Rivers definitely falls into the wtf pass in crucial situations. I think one of the key measures of a great qb is how often you can make those passes.

[bulletsponge]

I'm not a fan of Ken "Hawk" Harrelson, but he has a saying that I think is spot on. When talking about hitters' statistics he says, "Don't tell me what you hit, tell me WHEN you hit it." This probably applies to Romo. Some guys are afraid of the spotlight and the pressure. Need I mention the botched FG hold?

long time Cowboy fans remember danny white. Romo is Danny white. well not exactly, danny white could actually get to the playoffs

[cartman]

long time Cowboy fans remember danny white. Romo is Danny white. well not exactly, danny white could actually get to the playoffs


Plus Danny White had Tom Landry. Romo has had Wade Phillips and Jason Garrett.

[jbergey22]

I think the more I watch the Cowboys the more I believe Romo is the only reason they are closer to 9-7 each year rather than 5-11. Maybe Romo has had some classic "choke" moments but for the most part he is the reason they are even in position to "choke." When you are a QB and have to carry the coaching staff it becomes a real problem.

I have never really thought Romo was scared of the big moment. I think in that aspect he is like Brett Favre in that he tries to do too much in the clutch moment. Maybe they are the same thing.

[BillJasper]

I think the more I watch the Cowboys the more I believe Romo is the only reason they are closer to 9-7 each year rather than 5-11. Maybe Romo has had some classic "choke" moments but for the most part he is the reason they are even in position to "choke." When you are a QB and have to carry the coaching staff it becomes a real problem.



This is pretty much where I'm at.

[Blackadar]

I read someplace recently that Romo's "close and late" turnover ratio and QB rating were ungodly poor as compared to other QBs with similar statistics. I can't remember where I saw it. But I know Romo has more 4th quarter turnovers in close and late situations than any other QB. His QB rating drops like a rock in those same circumstances.

I agree with BillJasper and jbergey that Romo has carried the offense many times and can be a great QB. But something happens to him and the team late in the games and there have been too many just outright horrible plays from him in those situations to NOT deserve his reputation as a choker.

[cartman]

Yet, he is also only behind Peyton Manning in 4th quarter comebacks since he became a starter.

[Solecismic]

I did a pretty thorough study of late-4Q game-winning drives and one quarterback is clearly the best of all-time in the clutch... Tim Couch. Eleven of his 21 career wins came from those winning drives.

It's pretty much random scatter with low sample sizes. What's clear when the sample gets larger is that teams with 7-8-9 wins have more opportunities for winning 4Q drives. It all evens out because the best quarterbacks simply win more games, even though a lower percentage of those 11-12-win season games result in winning 4Q drives.

Out of 240 games this season, 61 have featured a winning drive late in the game. The distribution is remarkably even. If quarterbacks have magic fourth-quarter ability (which implies they don't do their best the rest of the game), I've never seen it. And I look at this stuff a lot.

I think this argument is even more important in baseball. I would not want a player on my team who only pays attention when the score is close and there's a runner on second base. Studies that compare these "clutch" ratings from season to season invariably come up with nothing more than random noise.

For grins, this year's list:

4: Brady, Flacco, Palmer
3: Romo, Tannehill, Cutler, G. Smith, Newton, Roethlisberger
2: Luck, Kaepernick, Brees, Locker, Schaub, Rivers, Griffin, Wilson
1: A. Smith, Dalton, Henne, Manuel, E. Manning, P. Manning, J. McCown, Flynn, Cassel, Ryan, Stafford, Lewis, Bradford, Fitzpatrick, Hoyer

Honestly, I think this clutch stuff is completely made up by announcers and so-called analysts who want to make themselves feel relevant.

It's too bad that sometimes really good quarterbacks like Romo have to deal with a reputation that's completely undeserved. The Cowboys have been 8-8/9-7 more frequently than not during his career - which means he's been put in clutch situations more than most. Failures are far more visible than successes at that level.

[NobodyHere]

And here I was thinking Tim Tebow was the greatest clutch QB ever, since all of his wins in 2011 seem to come in the 4th Qtr.

[BillJasper]

I don't think Romo will ever be great until Jerry Jones gets out of the way and he can have a normal relationship with whoever the head coach is.

[weegeebored]

These kinds of discussions are always interesting but the arguments for/against will always be flawed. What I mean is that we're giving opinions based on perceptions. Those perceptions may or may not be based on actual facts. The problem is the measurement of QB "greatness" or "4th Q comeback ability". You can't measure what is not defined. As an example, let's take intelligence. The concept exists -- sure -- but how do we define it? Is it by performance on an IQ test? Creative ability? Problem-solving? Football savvy? If the definition can't be agreed upon then there's no way to measure it which means that perception becomes reality. Is Peyton smarter than Romo who is smarter than Cutler? I don't know. What I do know is that Manning's team is in a much better position to be successful than the other QBs' teams. The fact that his team is scoring an ungodly amount of points makes the 4th quarter comeback measurement irrelevant. So because he scores "low" on that measure does that make him a worse QB than another who has been in a different situation in games that allowed for comebacks?

One simple way to think about this is, if you were running a team would you want Romo to be your quarterback if you had designs on winning a Super Bowl? I would say no because, imo, he isn't going to win big games. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and his record kind of speaks for itself. I think he's a good qb, but not a great one.

[Solecismic]

Please don't take offense, but I'd take analysis over imos. Peyton Manning has a mediocre playoff record (9-11 - 32/21 TD/Int). Yet I'd roll my eyes if someone told me he was outside of the top five quarterbacks in NFL history because of the numbers he has accumulated in the regular season.

Throwing out other playoff records... Tom Brady (17-7 - 42/22 TD/Int). Ben Roethlisberger (10-4 - 20/17). Romo (1-3 - 4/2). John Elway (14-7 - 27/21). Dan Fouts (3-4 - 12/16). Dan Marino (8-10 - 32/24). Joe Montana (16-7 - 45/21). Brett Favre (13-11 - 44/30). Troy Aikman (11-4 - 23/17).

There's a definite statistical pattern to competitive games amongst good teams. Just a couple of games makes a reputation. Romo can't be considered among the greats because he hasn't had enough of these big games, but what he has accumulated as he enters the latter stages of his career indicates he's far better than average.

[jbergey22]

Just curious. Do people feel Brett Favre is "clutch" or "unclutch"? I will save my opinion.

[MartinD]

I read a thread on another forum a few months back that's relevant to this discussion - was about the concept of a 'trap' QB, i.e. a quarterback who is good enough to make a team competitive (so the team never picks early enough in the first round of the draft to be able to acquire the top-end prospects), but not good enough to lead a team to a championship.

It probably doesn't come as a surprise that Tony Romo was mentioned quite a bit in that thread...

[jbergey22]

I read a thread on another forum a few months back that's relevant to this discussion - was about the concept of a 'trap' QB, i.e. a quarterback who is good enough to make a team competitive (so the team never picks early enough in the first round of the draft to be able to acquire the top-end prospects), but not good enough to lead a team to a championship.

It probably doesn't come as a surprise that Tony Romo was mentioned quite a bit in that thread...

I certainly agree with this concept in the NBA with certain "trap" stars. The NFL has a perfectly capable free agent system and enough wiggle room in the draft that I dont think this should be blamed on the potential of a "trap" QB and more on the upper management for not getting in the right pieces to the puzzle.

I would agree though that Romo would fit into this category.

In reality its on Jerry Jones for not having the patience to rebuild the right way and too big of an ego to let someone come in and do his job right.

[lungs]

From my own perspective as a Cowboy fan, I tend to attribute the Cowboys mediocrity to having some elite players at several positions surrounded by a lot of crap. Then when injuries hit and you are suiting up the janitor, things look even worse but the end result tends to be mediocrity overall with flashes of greatness.

[larrymcg421]

There are several QB's worse than Romo that have won a Superbowl.

[Danny]

I read a thread on another forum a few months back that's relevant to this discussion - was about the concept of a 'trap' QB, i.e. a quarterback who is good enough to make a team competitive (so the team never picks early enough in the first round of the draft to be able to acquire the top-end prospects), but not good enough to lead a team to a championship.

It probably doesn't come as a surprise that Tony Romo was mentioned quite a bit in that thread...

Bad / awful theory of the nfl.

[Buccaneer]

[fanboy]I think this is a good shot of one of the reasons I love Tom Brady and think he is one of the top 3 all-time. The pocket is collapsing, he got guys pretty much on him and in a second, he'll likely be on the ground. But here he is still looking at his target (perhaps his third checkdown), not folding, not running backwards, not with a slow release, not chucking it up or out and perhaps able to throw it on the numbers or where it needs to be thrown.

http://sports.cbsimg.net/u/photos/football/nfl/img24386919.jpg

[Radii]

Dallas Cowboys reach deal with Jon Kitna - ESPN Dallas (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/10192310/dallas-cowboys-reach-deal-jon-kitna)

[Radii]

I know it'll just be for a week to have depth, but damn, I haven't heard that name in a long time.

[cougarfreak]

Dallas Cowboys reach deal with Jon Kitna - ESPN Dallas (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/10192310/dallas-cowboys-reach-deal-jon-kitna)

Last I heard he was teaching/coaching high school. He was a great guy, an average QB, and an above average backup QB here in Cincy.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Dallas Cowboys reach deal with Jon Kitna - ESPN Dallas (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/10192310/dallas-cowboys-reach-deal-jon-kitna)

Thus, resetting the Hall of Fame eligibility.

[Danny]

Who is who in the playoffs?

Player A QB Rating: 87.4
Player B QB Rating: 88.4

Player A Completion %: 62.3%
Player B Completion %: 63.4%

Player A YPA: 6.71
Player B YPA: 7.46

Player A is Tom Brady
Player B is Peyton Manning

Now, I am not trying to say Manning has been more successful than Brady in the playoffs, but statistically they are very similar.

[Danny]

Now, the most amazing playoff stat is Joe Montana. In 4 superbowls he is 11/0 for a 127 QB rating, 68% completion % and 9.36 YPA

[Radii]

Last I heard he was teaching/coaching high school. He was a great guy, an average QB, and an above average backup QB here in Cincy.

Jon Kitna to donate game check to high school | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/26/jon-kitna-to-donate-game-check-to-high-school/)

good stuff

[Buccaneer]

Now, the most amazing playoff stat is Joe Montana. In 4 superbowls he is 11/0 for a 127 QB rating, 68% completion % and 9.36 YPA

Yes, that's why I have long kept him as #1 all-time, despite what Brady and Manning have and are doing.

[Buccaneer]

It's amazing what Peyton and the Broncos have done this season


BEST OFFENSES OF ALL TIME
TEAM POINTS YARDS SCORES(RUN/PASS/FG) 1ST DNS TURNOVERS TM RECORD RANK(RUN/PASS)
'13 DEN 538* 6,859 16R/51P*/23FG 407 26 12-3 14R/1P
'07 NE 532 6,580 17R/50P/21FG 393 15* 16-0* 13R/1P
'01 STL 468 6,690 20R/37P/23FG 340 44 14-2 5R/1P
'05 IND 419 5,799 19R/31P/23FG 363 19 14-2 16R/3P
'98 MIN 511 6,264 17R/41P/35FG* 335 20 15-1 11R/1P
'98 DEN 475 6,092 26R*/32P/23FG 347 20 14-2 16R/1P

[miami_fan]

Aaron Rodgers is starting on Sunday.

[Arles]

Aaron Rodgers is starting on Sunday.
:thumbsup:

[Chief Rum]

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup: for the Packers

:banghead: for my failed fantasy team

[TroyF]

Who is who in the playoffs?

Player A QB Rating: 87.4
Player B QB Rating: 88.4

Player A Completion %: 62.3%
Player B Completion %: 63.4%

Player A YPA: 6.71
Player B YPA: 7.46

Player A is Tom Brady
Player B is Peyton Manning

Now, I am not trying to say Manning has been more successful than Brady in the playoffs, but statistically they are very similar.


I'm guessing this is a shot at my stats, but if it is, you'll only get me nodding my head saying "Yeah, I've been saying for years Manning gets too much crap for supposed playoff failures"

For most of his career, Manning has had a poor defense behind him. For Brady's three Super Bowl titles, the Patriots finished 2nd, 1st and 6th in points against. In his first three playoff years, here is the 9 game points against total against the Patriots D during their Super Bowl years:



13, 17, 17, 14, 14, 29, 3, 27, 21, 20 ,12, 17 (L), 10, 20, 21 (L)

That's 15 games. No 30 point games against, 9 games under 20 points, 13 games 21 points or under.

Lets look at his non Super Bowl losses in points given up: 27, 38, 33, 28, 28

Hmmmm, wow. You mean, you can't expect any QB, even a hall of famer to score over 30 in playoff games and expect to win? Seriously? I mean, I would never have thunk it.

In 20 career playoff games, Manning's teams have generated 23 points per contest. Brady comes in at 24.75 in 24 career playoff games. Brady has been better, (not just points for, but better at protecting the ball and obviously the comebacks count for something as well) It just isn't by some overwhelming thing that people make it out to be. Manning has been just fine in the playoffs and had you swapped the two QB's out, you probably wouldn't have seen appreciably different results.

[Danny]

I'm guessing this is a shot at my stats, but if it is, you'll only get me nodding my head saying "Yeah, I've been saying for years Manning gets too much crap for supposed playoff failures"

For most of his career, Manning has had a poor defense behind him. For Brady's three Super Bowl titles, the Patriots finished 2nd, 1st and 6th in points against. In his first three playoff years, here is the 9 game points against total against the Patriots D during their Super Bowl years:



13, 17, 17, 14, 14, 29, 3, 27, 21, 20 ,12, 17 (L), 10, 20, 21 (L)

That's 15 games. No 30 point games against, 9 games under 20 points, 13 games 21 points or under.

Lets look at his non Super Bowl losses in points given up: 27, 38, 33, 28, 28

Hmmmm, wow. You mean, you can't expect any QB, even a hall of famer to score over 30 in playoff games and expect to win? Seriously? I mean, I would never have thunk it.

In 20 career playoff games, Manning's teams have generated 23 points per contest. Brady comes in at 24.75 in 24 career playoff games. Brady has been better, (not just points for, but better at protecting the ball and obviously the comebacks count for something as well) It just isn't by some overwhelming thing that people make it out to be. Manning has been just fine in the playoffs and had you swapped the two QB's out, you probably wouldn't have seen appreciably different results.


That wasn't a shot at your stats at all, I was actually trying to show that Manning has been just as good if not better than Brady statistically in the playoffs. I actually chose a few statistics I thought did give a pretty good picture of a pocket passing qb

[Danny]

:thumbsup:

Sweet, should be a fun game now.

[BishopMVP]

Some cool accuracy charts for Tom Brady - FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Film Room: Tom Brady (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2013/film-room-tom-brady)

Nothing that doesn't follow the general consensus here, but nice to see it in visual form.

[Carman Bulldog]

For most of his career, Manning has had a poor defense behind him. For Brady's three Super Bowl titles, the Patriots finished 2nd, 1st and 6th in points against...

While we are throwing stats out there, lets explore the real reason why Manning has the reputation that he has. In the seven year stretch between '99 - '05, here are Manning's numbers in the six games (missed the playoffs in '01) that the Colts were eliminated in:

122 for 232 (52.5% completion rate), 1323 yard passing (220.5 per game), 3 touchdowns, 7 interceptions.

Now here are the numbers in the three games they won in that stretch:
71 for 89 (79.7% completion rate), 1139 passing yards (379.6 per game, 12 touchdowns, 1 interception.

There you go. While it's only a nine game total sample size, I think it's pretty cut and dry and also hard to blame the defense for those losses, or anything else for that matter. For the record they gave up the following point totals in those six losses... 19, 23, 41 (but they scored 0 so it doesn't really matter how many they gave up), 24, 20 and 21. Peyton Manning was awful in those games and was a large part of the reason why they lost. To his credit, his play has leveled itself out quite a bit since then and he has not been nearly as bad in losing efforts. I understand why he had the reputation at one time but he is much less deserved of it these days.

It's cute though when people say stuff such as "Manning had a poor defense behind him" and "Manning has been just as good if not better than Brady statistically in the playoffs." Lets not forgot that spending money on defense means that you have guys such as Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as your top two receivers instead of Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. I also think that probably has an impact on your passing numbers (imagine Brady's completion percentage without those Caldwell drops!).

For the record though, Manning has had a top 8 defense behind him six seasons (1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 7th and 8th) and failed to win a Super Bowl any of those years. In fact, he is one and done in five of those seasons. He's also been one and done eight times total. That probably also factors highly into his reputation.

Brady by comparison has been much more steady. He's not really flashy and does not put up gaudy numbers in victory nor does he put up many absolute stinkers in defeat. In fact, it's tough to find very many defining moments or games for him in victory or defeat. When they lose, there are other key players/moments that are easily pinpointed as the turning point, be it the Reche Caldwell and Wes Welker drops or the Tyree helmet catch.

So yeah, I guess statistically speaking, they are somewhat comparable (apart from winning percentage and Super Bowls) but how they each got there is vastly different.


Edit: Just for fun, combining those numbers from above, in nine games you get 193 for 321 (60.1% completion), 2462 yards (273.5 per game), 15 touchdowns, 8 interceptions. Not too shabby so even though they were 3-6 in that stretch, you can't blame Manning, right? Right?

[Thomkal]

Just in case you somehow missed it. Romo had back surgery this morning and is now officially out for the season

[miami_fan]

Just in case you somehow missed it. Romo had back surgery this morning and is now officially out for the season

I guess he is no longer day to day

[JonInMiddleGA]

I guess he is no longer day to day

His coach on the other hand ...

;)

[BillJasper]

His coach on the other hand ...

;)

I'm not sure the move to Orton is that big of a deal. They'll miss Romo but Orton has been with them two years and knows the playbook and personnel and has had some success as an NFL QB. Plus, the Eagles gave up 48 points to an offensively inept Vikings team.

If the Cowboys defense can step it up a couple notches, they'll beat the Eagles even with Orton at QB.

[markprior22]

I'm not sure the move to Orton is that big of a deal. They'll miss Romo but Orton has been with them two years and knows the playbook and personnel and has had some success as an NFL QB. Plus, the Eagles gave up 48 points to an offensively inept Vikings team.

If the Cowboys defense can step it up a couple notches, they'll beat the Eagles even with Orton at QB.

This. I think Orton will do just fine. He'll get rid of the ball quicker than Romo so he won't have to improvise as much. They have the talent on offense to put up the points...it will be the Dallas defense that wins or loses this game.

[BillJasper]

Heck, they had two games where they've scored 36 and 48 points respectively and lost. In their last meeting with the Eagles the held Nick Foles to 11/29 for 80 yards and McCoy to 18 carries for 55 yards.

I don't think this game is a slam dunk for the Eagles and if they come in thinking it is... they'll get blown out of the Jerry Dome.

[Chief Rum]

If the Cowboys defense can step it up a couple notches, they'll beat the Eagles even with Orton at QB.

Did Monte Kiffin get fired since last weekend? Because, if not, he is still not good at stopping a Chip Kelly offense.

[Chief Rum]

Heck, they had two games where they've scored 36 and 48 points respectively and lost. In their last meeting with the Eagles the held Nick Foles to 11/29 for 80 yards and McCoy to 18 carries for 55 yards.

I don't think this game is a slam dunk for the Eagles and if they come in thinking it is... they'll get blown out of the Jerry Dome.

True. Okay, Kiffin's D did stop the Eagles here. I guess we'll have to see how it goes on Sunday.

[BillJasper]

True. Okay, Kiffin's D did stop the Eagles here. I guess we'll have to see how it goes on Sunday.

I don't have a horse in the race, I just think it's premature to write-off the Cowboys because of Romo's injury.

[NobodyHere]

I would love to see Orton/Kitna lead the Cowboys to the Superbowl just for the Front Office hilarity that would ensue.