Today's NFL compared to FOF7

[korme]

I am not seeing QB numbers that we're seeing today in the NFL. In my 50-year solo sim, 3 guys hold the record for passing TDs in a single season at 35.

Comparatively, since 1994 23 guys have thrown for 35+ TDs in the NFL.

Anyone seeing high QB passing numbers that compare to the NFL?

[Ben E Lou]

The Challenges of Pigskin Simulation in a Bull Market - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=88185)

[korme]

I think Jim is wrong when he says a casual gamer would be turned off by high numbers. It might be just me, but I am always trying for that QB that can reach Brees-like numbers. Or the team that could accomplish 3 1000 yard receivers. These things make me keep coming back.

To me, it's not as exciting to go 13-3 with a QB who throws 17 TDs and 2600 yards... unless I'm trying to replicate a Trent Dilfer Ravens squad (which can be fun, but only occasionally)

[Ben E Lou]

I suspect that an underlying concern is that if the engine were to allow an AI QB to get up around 5500 yards, 55 TDs, and/or a 120 QB rating (numbers that are all realistic for the last few seasons,) then a very good human player could achieve numbers like 7000 yards/70 TDs/135-140 QB rating.

[Sef0r]

I suspect that an underlying concern is that if the engine were to allow an AI QB to get up around 5500 yards, 55 TDs, and/or a 120 QB rating (numbers that are all realistic for the last few seasons,) then a very good human player could achieve numbers like 7000 yards/70 TDs/135-140 QB rating.

Then hopefully a very good player in this version of the game can achieve 5000 yards, 45 TDs and a 104 QB rating. If not, then I share the concerns.

That being said, I haven't even tested this. I am at work so someone else can try and see if it can be achieved. Trade for best QB and 2 great WRs, and a very good TE. Save game, sim, note your QBs numbers, reload and go again.

[Ben E Lou]

Trade for best QB and 2 great WRs, and a very good TE. Save game, sim, note your QBs numbers, reload and go again.1. You can't trade for the best QB.
2. Cohesion would suck.

[Sef0r]

I will do this with my SP test set up, I've got A.Rod with 2 good WRs anyway and will sim forward some seasons until cohesion is close to 100 before I record the numbers.

[Julio Riddols]

I love the way the game plays. I feel like the 90's were the best era, and this game seems to play right along those lines.

Also, the offenses you see today will change and evolve back over time, because in the next several seasons teams will figure out how to defend these finesse offenses and teams with power running games and play action passing will suddenly be the new hotness because they will be able to over power defenses built to stop the pass.

[Danny]

In general I think a slider or a couple of options for offense / defense and passing / rushing would work well.

[Sef0r]

In general I think a slider or a couple of options for offense / defense and passing / rushing would work well.

Take that back...as Julio has in his sig, F*ck EA.

[BucDawg40]

Although I do agree that offense might be tad low, particularly with the default NFL player file, the computer can generate modern passing offense numbers.

This QB is on an AI-controlled team. Check out his 2016 season:

http://i41.tinypic.com/15gwhnd.jpg

[mrtourette]

I see modern yardage stats, but usually coupled with comparatively low TDs (25-30).

[Sef0r]

It isn't often you will have a QB constantly put up big numbers so BucDawg40's post made me smile - happy again.

[Crooner]

don't know how he went undrafted...:eek:

[Antmeister]

don't know how he went undrafted...:eek:
Well he would have never been a superstar if he didn't have an affinity for a Manning. :D

[MizzouRah]

don't know how he went undrafted...:eek:

Kurt Warner anyone?

[Antmeister]

don't know how he went undrafted...:eek:

Seriously though, my guess is that the high volatility had something to do with this. Do you happen to have his scouted ratings as well?

[Karim]

Is it possible to go in the other direction and get an all-time level defense like the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens? That has always been my goal but I've never had a defense at that level, despite having ones good enough to keep opponents to under 200 points in a season. Winning the championship still relied on having a good QB and skill positions.

I just had the AI win the SuperBowl with a back-up QB rated at 31/31 who also won the NFC after the starter went down in the divisional round due to injury. The opponent had the best QB in the league at 86/86 so I was shocked but it was nice to see.

[Antmeister]

Is it possible to go in the other direction and get an all-time level defense like the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens? That has always been my goal but I've never had a defense at that level, despite having ones good enough to keep opponents to under 200 points in a season. Winning the championship still relied on having a good QB and skill positions.

I just had the AI win the SuperBowl with a back-up QB rated at 31/31 who also won the NFC after the starter went down in the divisional round due to injury. The opponent had the best QB in the league at 86/86 so I was shocked but it was nice to see.

I am hoping for this as well, because I love building defenses. Came really close in MP in winning a bowl (in FOF 2007) with defense. My team had a run in WOOF and stopped all the top offenses in the league in the playoffs until I reached the Bowl. I lost in the Doggie Bowl 7-2 (I believe). My offense sucked so I only managed a safety and held Lowcountry to one score, but that is the only time I had a run like that and could not keep doing that consistently.

In this version, it has been difficult to get enough good defensive players under contract. Used to build them mostly through free agency, but you just don't see a lot of high end defensive players on the free agent market. And, of course, finding them in the draft is possible, but I only managed can see to find any player that will max out above 65. I can get above average lineman, but I seem to have trouble with CBs and sometimes FS.

[Olsson]

I have just completed my 2028 regular season and my defense have been nothing short of amazing:

2nd run defense(82.1y)
1st pass defense (168.1y)
1st total defense (232.4y)

12.0 ppg against
48 sacks
23.4% 3rd down conversion
28 takeaways

Cohesion wise our defensive front is 2nd and our secondary is 7th.

It's not like we're swimming in superstars, our starters current ability:

D-Line: 53-64-46-54
Linebackers: 57-44-46
Secondary: 58-46-73-45

I had the leagues best rushing attack, so that might have been a factor.

However... If my rex'ed D with only 2 players over 60 can make such an impact I would believe it is possible to create incredible numbers with players even more talented.

I have won 5 of the last 6 SB's with my future HOF QB Barker. So if we win the bowl again it won't only be because of the defense.

[Karim]

In this version, it has been difficult to get enough good defensive players under contract. Used to build them mostly through free agency, but you just don't see a lot of high end defensive players on the free agent market. And, of course, finding them in the draft is possible, but I only managed can see to find any player that will max out above 65. I can get above average lineman, but I seem to have trouble with CBs and sometimes FS.

My upcoming amateur draft has two all-world DEs and I had this fantasy of trading for the 1st and 2nd picks (my 1st is 30th). Arizona has the first pick and they wouldn't trade it for my first rounders for the next three years... My dreams were dashed.

EA this ain't! :)

It's funny that despite all the changes over the years with FOF, I still suck at the same things, mainly getting anyone to challenge for the sack title. I can get the best DLs and LBs and it never seems to matter for me.

[Karim]

^^

You give me hope because it's hard to get an entire defence of 60+ players at every position. Even if you do, they won't stay healthy all year.

[redfox000]

Seriously though, my guess is that the high volatility had something to do with this. Do you happen to have his scouted ratings as well?

This.

[redfox000]

Is it possible to go in the other direction and get an all-time level defense like the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens? That has always been my goal but I've never had a defense at that level, despite having ones good enough to keep opponents to under 200 points in a season. Winning the championship still relied on having a good QB and skill positions.

I just had the AI win the SuperBowl with a back-up QB rated at 31/31 who also won the NFC after the starter went down in the divisional round due to injury. The opponent had the best QB in the league at 86/86 so I was shocked but it was nice to see.

I don't have the numbers right now, but I have put together defenses that give up less than 10 ppg over an entire season...of course that was with 2007 and SP

[Ben E Lou]

Hehehe. Someone is arguing that real life is "unrealistic."

Football Frontier » Blog Archive » The Challenges of Pigskin Simulation in a Bull Market (http://www.solecismic.com/frontierblog/?p=668#comments)

I have thought about this also. The nfl is becoming more unrealistic and less entertaining because of this imbalance. The fact is that with a simulation you can keep things balanced which is more important than matching a game where defense doesn’t matter any more. I agree with you Jim the average points and yards should be kept pre 2010. I would rather play fof 2007 than have todays nfl numbers in FoF7.

[Sef0r]

Funny, fof2k7 could get you 1.5 season's worth of Drew Brees stats :)

[loregnum]

I find so far in 2.5 seasons that passer ratings are for the most part too low and rushing figures are WAY too high. Not so much the yards for the individual leaders but team rush yards and the ypc figures.

This game seems to really hate Brees as he has had 2.5 lousy seasons so far both in stats and passer rating and it isn't close to the real life Drew. Maybe Jim has an issue with him. :p

I really hope this update coming tweaks the balance of passing and rushing. It comes off like it was designed to be the exact opposite of the real life NFL.

A solid game otherwise.

[whomario]

One issue might be, that there are a ton of QBs entering the league that are in the Newton/Kaepernick mold and since they rush for tons of yards that affects passing numbers. Of course those do seem to come arround more in recent years irl, but maybe it´s still a bit overdone in the game.

[Ben E Lou]

One issue might be, that there are a ton of QBs entering the league that are in the Newton/Kaepernick mold and since they rush for tons of yards that affects passing numbers. Of course those do seem to come arround more in recent years irl, but maybe it´s still a bit overdone in the game.I don't see that there's much difference in the player generation. It's that the QBs with high scrambling ability run for way more yards. I'm quite certain that we'll see QBs like this guy (http://108.59.255.76/~benelou/ihof/ben/playercard.php?playerid=30763) go from 181 rushing yards to north of 600. It's a change in the engine. And this doesn't appear to be something that is going to be tweaked. Jim has made it abundantly clear in the podcast he did and in the blog that he has the capacity to tweak some variables to make stats come out the way he wants them to, and this is the way he wants them to be. Read the blog post, and especially his responses to some of the comments: Football Frontier » Blog Archive » The Challenges of Pigskin Simulation in a Bull Market (http://www.solecismic.com/frontierblog/?p=668) From that, it's 100% clear that he thinks it would be a bad business decision to have stats mirror the current NFL, and that's why they don't. No other reason. It's not the talent of the player universe. It's the play resolution engine.

[whomario]

thanks for the response, that makes a lot of sense when thinking about it a bit more. Wasn´t complaining about it either, in general i have very little problem with different stats/outcomes in games as long as they are logical within the game setting.

[Nataris]

Love the game and support Jim. But I'm not a big fan of this use of "we mimic real NFL football.." when its convenient.. Either you make a game that mimics something or you don't.

You shouldnt pick and choose what parts of the real NFL should be included. I'm a defensive guy and hate seeing 40+ scores. But guess what, that's the game today. Deal with it.

To use ANY stats before 1970 (1943?!) is just silly to me. It is not even remotely the same game. This games statistics should be an avg of the last 10-20 years.

I'm not saying 6000 60td is what I want. But it also shouldn't be pretending to be NFL from the 90's either. Something like 3750 yds and 35-40tds should be more like it.

What in the last 5 years has made you think offensive numbers will go down? Calling it an abberition is just wrong.

[whomario]

the creator of the Fast Break Basketball games (Brian Nichols, Heavyreign on this board) has done a great job there by inserting "modifiers" we can adjust as we please, like pace, fg%, turnovers etc. Is used to distinguish the historic seasons according to the era and as an adition can be used to adjust the league going forward.

[Solecismic]

One thing that makes the NFL remarkable is the consistency of its statistical behavior. I'd argue that's part of what has led to its enormous popularity (34% say it's their favorite sport - baseball is second at 14%).

I use a rolling average to center the FOF statistics. I have not weighted 2012-13 heavily because they are way out of whack compared to anything in NFL history. I do not use 1943-1996 at all. These are mentioned only to illustrate the consistency of scoring in the NFL.

There are subtle changes which I try to model. I've obviously adjusted quarterback rushing because that's a trend that doesn't look like it's going away. Also, there are fewer runners who look like they can carry 300 times per season, though yards per carry has risen much faster lately than the passing numbers.

It's a complex world with hundreds of numbers modeling how stats will be generated in the game. My goal is to produce today's NFL sim. In order to do that, I am treating 2012-13 as the high end of what is possible today.

My feeling is that if I don't, record performances will be possible on the high end of the modeled curve that make people feel like the game is completely unrealistic.

I'd argue that the NFL shouldn't require era modification. Or if it does, it would be pre-1980s and the passing-rules easement and post-1980s. Today is more like big-head Madden. We'll know more 2-3 years. Is this the dawn of a completely radical and new era or merely the very top of the curve? I'm in this for the long-term, not to react to everything the minute it happens.

[garion333]

OOTP allows you to tweak settings for pitching and hitting, so if Jim has the tools to allow it I'd love to see that become a part of the game. Allow us to design historical leagues and whatnot.

[conception]

OOTP allows you to tweak settings for pitching and hitting, so if Jim has the tools to allow it I'd love to see that become a part of the game. Allow us to design historical leagues and whatnot.

It may not be as easy for football as it is for baseball. I know that with the announcement of Beyond the Sidelines they are really trying to temper expectations of customization (which is OOTP's calling card) because football is more complicated and interlinked.

[Sef0r]

Give it time people, I expect within 12 months people will be able to get close to 2011-13 stats with the QBs. The good thing about this is the players that produce WANT to get paid, so people will find it difficult to sustain these dominant teams for more than 2-3 seasons with how many holdouts there are now.

[Ben E Lou]

NFL Averages to date in 2014:

23.1ppg
63.7% completions
6.88 ypa passing
League-Wide QB Rating: 89.3

[Sharkn20]

NFL Averages to date in 2014:

23.1ppg
63.7% completions
6.88 ypa passing
League-Wide QB Rating: 89.3

Is amazing the speed of the NFL this year... And our game is even better :) Go FOF7!!!

[garion333]

Is it possible to go in the other direction and get an all-time level defense like the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens? That has always been my goal but I've never had a defense at that level, despite having ones good enough to keep opponents to under 200 points in a season. Winning the championship still relied on having a good QB and skill positions.

I just had the AI win the SuperBowl with a back-up QB rated at 31/31 who also won the NFC after the starter went down in the divisional round due to injury. The opponent had the best QB in the league at 86/86 so I was shocked but it was nice to see.

Since this thread popped back up, I thought I'd mention my team from the GML last season (http://www.fof-gml.com/teampage.php?teamid=9) as I believe these are the lowest numbers I've ever had in mp.

2021 TEAM STATISTICS
TOTAL OFFENSE: 354.9 ypg (#8)
RUSHING OFFENSE: 113.9 ypg (#13)
PASSING OFFENSE: 250.4 ypg (#8)
SCORING OFFENSE: 27.6 ppg (#2)
TOTAL DEFENSE: 266.2 ypg (#1) - 4259 yds
RUSHING DEFENSE: 112.2 ypg (#19) - 1795 yds
PASSING DEFENSE: 167.4 ypg (#1) - 2678 yds
SCORING DEFENSE: 11.9 ppg (#1) - 190 pts

Those defensive numbers are pretty close to what the 1985 Bears defense did. The 2000 Ravens gave up less points and less rushing yards, while I gave up less yards through the air.

Btw, the next lowest point total in the league was 14.6 ppg.

How did I do this? Well, a little bit of luck, really. My starting CB was an aging stud (who retired). He had dropped into the mid 50's for a rating, but my cohesion was high. My other CBs were all mediocre at best, but had all been around for 4 seasons. My safeties consist of two high-ish 1st rounders who excel at coverage. A decent unit, but not one I expected to put up numbers. Those numbers come, in large part, from one man: WLB Mickey Perkins (http://www.fof-gml.com/playercard.php?playerid=7087).

Perkins had such a great season last year that he made 1st team and almost won DPOY in only 12 games. He was on pace for 18 sacks, 25 hurries and 36 QB KD. Those numbers as a whole are pretty insane and worked out to be an 11.4% PR.

He is a huge reason my D put on such a show. My main goal with my defense is to stop the pass and be okay at run D. I will take a LB that can cover over a LB that stops the run (example (http://www.fof-gml.com/playercard.php?playerid=7939)).

So, do defenses win Championships? In my case, no. I lost to Ben (again) in the playoffs. Part of it is that I lost my stud TE late in the season and my offense struggled a bit more from there out. The game was close and I imagine it came down to a dice roll (he won on a long pass in the 4th quarter).

Can great defenses be built and win games? Mostly. I won because of a great-ish defense with a good enough offense who helped prop up the defense. My theory on FOF anymore is that just like in the NFL the easiest way to win games is to get ahead early and force the pass.

That's neither here nor there, the point is FOF7 allows for great defensive play, which is not something I felt was true in 2k7.

[KarlTampaHey]

I am not seeing QB numbers that we're seeing today in the NFL. In my 50-year solo sim, 3 guys hold the record for passing TDs in a single season at 35.

Comparatively, since 1994 23 guys have thrown for 35+ TDs in the NFL.

Anyone seeing high QB passing numbers that compare to the NFL?


I'm into year 2104. Somewhere around year '75-90 I drafted a guy named Cooper Grieg, or something. I'm not at my laptop with all the stuff on it. Anyway, in one of his later years he threw for 44 touchdowns with just under 5100 yards. I had a Gronk like TE and a pair of Randy Moss's that would bankrupt my cap the following season. I checked the record, and in almost 100 years of sim the closest was some guy named Mason Burton i think that slung 30-35 touchdowns. He never had another season like that again -- Cooper.

[KarlTampaHey]

I'm into year 2104. Somewhere around year '75-90 I drafted a guy named Cooper Grieg, or something. I'm not at my laptop with all the stuff on it. Anyway, in one of his later years he threw for 44 touchdowns with just under 5100 yards. I had a Gronk like TE and a pair of Randy Moss's that would bankrupt my cap the following season. I checked the record, and in almost 100 years of sim the closest was some guy named Mason Burton i think that slung 30-35 touchdowns. He never had another season like that again -- Cooper.

http://i.imgur.com/SxxtBLz.png Off with a few details, including his name. Whatever.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Touchdowns are a tad low. But with the right gameplan and supporting players, big stats are possible. I am glad this thread exists because it gives me an excuse to post the stats of one of my favorite players. He won 8 championships in his career. I have injuries turned off. His career high in passing was 72.9 percent and, he went over 5,000 yards 7 times. Curiously his passing rating was lower than you would expect given the rest of the stats. Ladies and gentleman I present Harold Leon.

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u665/lastwhitesoxfanstanding/ScreenShot2014-10-15at11005PM_zps69bb9638.png (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/lastwhitesoxfanstanding/media/ScreenShot2014-10-15at11005PM_zps69bb9638.png.html)

[beeznik]

My biggest beef with this game is that I think it is too centered on stud RBs. I think the last game was more realistic in terms of RBs. IN the NFL, they don't go in the 1st round anymore in the NFL draft and backups do put up some solid stats(whereas in FOF, I find it hard to get my backups above 3 ypc.)

[Sharkn20]

My biggest beef with this game is that I think it is too centered on stud RBs. I think the last game was more realistic in terms of RBs. IN the NFL, they don't go in the 1st round anymore in the NFL draft and backups do put up some solid stats(whereas in FOF, I find it hard to get my backups above 3 ypc.)

I have to disagree with this :)

A stud RB could carry a team... Marshall Faulk? Ladinian Tomlinson? Tikki Barber? Lesean McCoy? The NFL is and was plenty of stud RBs carrying their teams into the play-offs without help...

[beeznik]

I have to disagree with this :)

A stud RB could carry a team... Marshall Faulk? Ladinian Tomlinson? Tikki Barber? Lesean McCoy? The NFL is and was plenty of stud RBs carrying their teams into the play-offs without help...

I'm talking about recent. RBs are simply not going in round 1 anymore. If it happens it will be an anomaly. Stud RBs have too much importance in this game, IMO. I don't know how you remedy that, but I think the previous version where you could get by with lower rated guys was more realistic.

[Sharkn20]

I'm talking about recent. RBs are simply not going in round 1 anymore. If it happens it will be an anomaly. Stud RBs have too much importance in this game, IMO. I don't know how you remedy that, but I think the previous version where you could get by with lower rated guys was more realistic.

Push for a good OL focused in the run, with a game manager QB and two decent RBs you will see the results in two seasons... Is amazing the versatilty of this game right now. I am playing in one of my leagues with that system and recently finished 13-3 and a loss in a divisional round at home against a terrible D# which nearly abused of my QB...

[aston217]

It may have gone a little in the opposite direction, but the ability to put up highly effective rushing performances with zero investment -- a totally pass blocking line, free agent or later round backs -- was a big flaw in FOF2k7, IMO.

It contributed in no small part to the unduly effective long passing, because running more helped the pass game and there was little reason not to run a lot, even for teams that had little rushing talent.