College Selection Process - Dear Lord I have one going off to school.

[MacroGuru]

Greetings,

Here I am, a parent of a junior in high school that isn't in any athletic programs but has academic lettered the last 2 years, looks like she will this year. She has a 3.8 GPA and has scored just over 1400 on her SAT. She has 2 AP classes complete and tests passed and will be taking 3 more AP classes next year.

It is now college recruitment time for the juniors. She is getting the letters from schools all over, I know some of them but I don't know all of them. A lot of them are offering scholarships a couple are full ride offers.

I am looking to see if anyone has had personal experiences or family that has with some of the following schools :

Baldwin Wallace
Hofstra
Drexler
Roanoke College
University of Vermont
University of Hartford
St. Lawrence University
Brown University
Quinnipac
Le Moyne (We have a friend that has graduated from here, she wasn't like jump up and down excited, just stated it's a decent education)

The one we have both loved so far is Roanoke, right now we are taking into account atmosphere, dedication to students and doing research on several majors in each school. Just wondering if anyone has had experiences at any of these.

[Marc Vaughan]

First off congrats to you on being an awesome parent and helping her get this far and to her on the undoubted hard work required to get the offers.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about those universities - but just to let you know you're not alone I went through this very thing with my daughter 2 years ago, she got accepted into some very nice Universities - but we ended up selecting Florida State on the basis that it was a solid University ... but also one which wouldn't bankrupt us (we were in state for it and because of that she qualified for some good scholarships etc.) ...

Haley has been there two years now and is loving it :)

[MrBug708]

Isnt the SAT out of 2400? My brother scored a 2310 a few years ago

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hope you don't mind if I throw a reverse question at you.

I've got a HS sophomore who is making his first round of official contacts, gathering info for the schools he's interested in, getting on their mailing lists, etc.

Did she visit any places on their sophomore days (or whatever name they used) and if so, how much value did you find in those events?

[DaddyTorgo]

Isnt the SAT out of 2400? My brother scored a 2310 a few years ago

This

[henry296]

I assume the third one is Drexel which is located in Philadelphia and is an urban campus. It is a good engineering school located right next to the University of Pennsylvania.

One of the first things I would try to discover is does she want an urban or more traditional college setting.

[Izulde]

I've heard Drexler has quality academics but the campus is a total dump.

One of my favorite and brightest professors ever got their PhD from Brown.

The general sense I've gotten of Hofstra is that it's overpriced and not worth it. I've literally never even heard of Baldwin Wallace, and I consider myself to be fairly up on recognizing college names.

[Lathum]

I thought the SAT was 1600?

[Breeze]

I thought the SAT was 1600?

2400 now...

[Lathum]

Brown is an Ivy LEague school, a full ride there would be pretty sweet.

[Lathum]

I thought the SAT was 1600?

2400 now...

well shit then.

Apparently there are also only 8 planets and now there are 5 oceans. I can't keep up with this shit.

[Logan]

The only one I know much about is Hofstra, as I had a couple friends go there from 01-05. I thought it was more of a commuter school? If that's still the case, I'd cross it off. Those friends don't have a particularly strong connection to the school, but could be an anomaly.

And unless the academics have changed over the past 10 years, isn't Hofstra several notches down below a place like Brown?

Does your daughter have a particular major in mind already, or is she pretty open? If she's considering a few, is it more along the lines of sciences/math/computers etc or liberal arts/business? If it's the latter, or she's open generally, my own advice would be not to put too much focus on the majors offered at each school as long as they're not extremely limited, as her goals could change once she gets there and takes some other classes.

The popular saying is that college is what you make of it, and I think it's really true. If you go to a solid school and do very well there, you'll do very well coming out. I learned a good amount about business/finance at Rutgers but I really feel like what got me several job offers out of school and what has led to success in my career almost 9 years in are the experiences I learned from the social aspects of college, both in the classroom (group projects, presenting, communication) and out.

[vex]

My copy of TCY says the SAT goes to 1600.

[JonInMiddleGA]

re: 1600 vs 2400

It's not uncommon to hear students (and others) still refer to the 2-part score instead of the 3-part score. Even nearly a decade after it's introduction, not all universities consider the writing portion of the exam (where the extra 800 points come from) and many of those who do give it less than full weight even if they look.

[MacroGuru]

Isnt the SAT out of 2400? My brother scored a 2310 a few years ago

I think it is, I am probably missing the writing score on top of it. She doesn't live with me, but I am the one helping her move forward in the process.

[MacroGuru]

Hope you don't mind if I throw a reverse question at you.

I've got a HS sophomore who is making his first round of official contacts, gathering info for the schools he's interested in, getting on their mailing lists, etc.

Did she visit any places on their sophomore days (or whatever name they used) and if so, how much value did you find in those events?

We had a lot of SUNY schools and a few of the local private schools there, not a ton out of state. The schools websites have been great, and then the AP testing and PSAT / SAT testing results has been the breath of fresh air for us.

She basically said to send her results out to the schools in the DB based upon her major selections and they did that and then some.

The SUNY schools won't recruit, we in essence have to pick, apply and focus. Less scholarship $'s there but a heck of a lot lower tuition.

[MacroGuru]

I've literally never even heard of Baldwin Wallace, and I consider myself to be fairly up on recognizing college names.

Baldwin Wallace is outside of Cleveland, haven't heard much about them, it's why I wanted to ask.

[MacroGuru]

Brown is an Ivy LEague school, a full ride there would be pretty sweet.

Exactly, they aren't a full ride offer right now, so I am freaking about costs as this is one of the schools she is leaning towards.

[sterlingice]

well shit then.

Apparently there are also only 8 planets and now there are 5 oceans. I can't keep up with this shit.

Wait? There's a 5th ocean now?

SI

[MacroGuru]

The only one I know much about is Hofstra, as I had a couple friends go there from 01-05. I thought it was more of a commuter school? If that's still the case, I'd cross it off. Those friends don't have a particularly strong connection to the school, but could be an anomaly.

And unless the academics have changed over the past 10 years, isn't Hofstra several notches down below a place like Brown?

Does your daughter have a particular major in mind already, or is she pretty open? If she's considering a few, is it more along the lines of sciences/math/computers etc or liberal arts/business? If it's the latter, or she's open generally, my own advice would be not to put too much focus on the majors offered at each school as long as they're not extremely limited, as her goals could change once she gets there and takes some other classes.

The popular saying is that college is what you make of it, and I think it's really true. If you go to a solid school and do very well there, you'll do very well coming out. I learned a good amount about business/finance at Rutgers but I really feel like what got me several job offers out of school and what has led to success in my career almost 9 years in are the experiences I learned from the social aspects of college, both in the classroom (group projects, presenting, communication) and out.

She is 17 and like a teenager all over the board..the two choices she is trying to decide between are Psychiatry and History (She is a lot like me and WAY into History and wouldn't mine being a History professor)

Money doesn't drive her right now, she has sat back and looked at how I have had my hills and valleys with finances over the years and realized she doesn't really want to chase the almighty $ but wants to be happy in what she does.

I think she enters into college as a History major and then branches off of there into something close related.

[MacroGuru]

First off congrats to you on being an awesome parent and helping her get this far and to her on the undoubted hard work required to get the offers.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about those universities - but just to let you know you're not alone I went through this very thing with my daughter 2 years ago, she got accepted into some very nice Universities - but we ended up selecting Florida State on the basis that it was a solid University ... but also one which wouldn't bankrupt us (we were in state for it and because of that she qualified for some good scholarships etc.) ...

Haley has been there two years now and is loving it :)

Thanks, there are a few state schools we are looking at. She isn't a big fan of the SUNY system and is looking at some of the private schools. Niagara University is on her list and chances are she can probably get the bulk of the schooling paid for.

She isn't scared to work while she goes to school as she is doing that right now while maintaining her scores.

[Izulde]

If she's even remotely considering a career in academia, run, don't walk, to Brown. If you don't have an Ivy League degree in your portfolio and you're in the humanities academic job market, you better have a hell of a lot publications, stellar networking, or both.

[molson]

Does she have any idea what she wants to study? Even as broadly as humanities v. sciences?

My first reaction was that there seemed to be a big gap between Brown and the rest, and that maybe she should be aiming a little higher, but I don't really know what a 3.8 and 1400 means for today's high school student.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think if her HS counselors (or whoever) feel that Brown is within her wheelhouse, then everything else on your list is a "safety school" from an academic standpoint. If Brown is a reach then I'd still say you could probably slot in some more academically-challenging schools in the "wheelhouse." There's a ton in NY/PA. What about like a Hamilton, Vassar, Gettyburg, Swarthmore, Skidmore?

If finances/getting scholarships is an important criterion though then obviously that will weigh into things.

[molson]

Schools can surprise you with how much they offer in financial aid. And elite schools are worth some debt (for her), especially if she has a career plan going in.

[nilodor]

If she's even remotely considering a career in academia, run, don't walk, to Brown. If you don't have an Ivy League degree in your portfolio and you're in the humanities academic job market, you better have a hell of a lot publications, stellar networking, or both.

+1 My cousin is in the running for a 1 year post doc at Harvard and said it would basically cut the time in half for her to become a professor. Her Phd is in history or philosophy of science.

[JonInMiddleGA]

but I don't really know what a 3.8 and 1400 means for today's high school student.

Best I can tell from beginning the process what either of those mean varies wildly.

For example, that's the average GPA of incoming freshmen at UGA this year. (actually 3.83). If her writing score was average (and added to the 1400) then it's also be right on the average SAT score for that class as well.

BUT ...

this fact seems to loom very large at a lot of places
More than 90% were in their school's "advanced" or "most difficult" curriculum

The GPA's are definitely looked at based on rigor at most schools these days.
It seems to matter no so much what your level was (AP vs IB vs Honors) but rather that you took as much of the toughest your HS had to offer, whatever that happened to be.

edit to add: UGA mentioned that roughly half of admitted freshman had a GPA above 4.00 ... while at the same time it's known that they take every grade & class description on your transcript, reduce it to core classes, and then apply their own formula to it to compute their own version of your "GPA". (which is the 3.83 mentioned above).

[nol]

Best I can tell from beginning the process what either of those mean varies wildly.

For example, that's the average GPA of incoming freshmen at UGA this year. (actually 3.83). If her writing score was average (and added to the 1400) then it's also be right on the average SAT score for that class as well.


I think you're looking at honors program students or early applicants. This one (The University of Georgia :: Undergraduate Admissions :: A Closer Look (https://www.admissions.uga.edu/article/a-closer-look.html)) puts a 2060 SAT at the 75th percentile for incoming freshmen.

Macroguru, I have a younger cousin who's a freshman at Drexel this year. She'll be doing computer science or engineering, so her experience might not be totally equivalent, but I'll get in touch with her. She's from Texas and seemed to have spent all of last year visiting schools ALL around the country, so there must have been something that really stood out about Drexel.

Everyone I know who went to Brown really loved it - the financial aid's quite good as well, if I remember correctly.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah - no way the overall average freshman at UGA has a 3.83. That's got to be honors program.

[nol]

That one does say 3.83 for the average, but like Jon said, all colleges compute high school GPA their own way in an attempt to standardize it for applicants. Expect significant bonuses/added weight for AP classes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah - no way the overall average freshman at UGA has a 3.83. That's got to be honors program.

Umm ...

The University of Georgia :: Undergraduate Admissions :: First Year Class Profile (https://www.admissions.uga.edu/article/first-year-class-profile.html)

High School Core Grade Point Average
Middle 50% of All Enrolled First-Year Students: 3.77 - 4.05
Overall Average of All Enrolled First-Year Students: 3.83
Middle 50% of All Enrolled Honors Students: 3.96 - 4.21
Middle 50% of All Scholarship Students: 4.00 - 4.17

The "enrolled" distinction appears to be covering the 5,000 or so that began in August 2013. The numbers would likely go down when you include those who were deferred until the next semester. (the link shows SAT/ACT ranges for those "admitted", which would include everybody)

[JonInMiddleGA]

That one does say 3.83 for the average, but like Jon said, all colleges compute high school GPA their own way in an attempt to standardize it for applicants. Expect significant bonuses/added weight for AP classes.

That's actually somewhat backwards to what they're doing with it (as I understand it). They normalize the AP/IB stuff to account for differing bonuses applied by different high schools.

There are bonuses the university applies but they're often less than what the HS add (another of the grade inflation tricks that let's half or more of a class graduate with a GPA over 4.00)

[britrock88]

Wait, she's still a junior, right? So she's just figuring out where to apply? You need to do two things to start with.

1) Buy the US News catalog. Select a wide swath of schools in 3 categories --
a) schools where her 1400 2-part SAT score (congrats) put her above the 75th percentile... this is the scholarship-mining sector, and a possible home for some in-state schools
b) schools where that SAT score is within the 25/75 band... realistic admit shots at in-state, out-of-state, and private schools
c) schools where that score is still below the 25th (are there any for >1400s? this may not be relevant, in which case you expand the size of group b.)

2) Once you've picked a fair amount of schools, just get on the ground and visit as many as you can. Walk around and get a feel for the campus, the main strip off the edge of campus, the town/city it's in. Tour if you want to, but know you're getting their best pitch. I know that the opportunity to visit lines up with breaks when students tend not to be around colleges in numbers, but it'll do.

After that, once your daughter has a gut feel for some of the places she's interested in, start asking around and narrowing the list down to a number of schools where you're comfortable she'll get into a school she will be happy to attend and that won't bankrupt you.

This is an imperfect process. But in matching a child with a school, mere exposure (in visits, in applications) is one of the best things you can get. As for intended fields of study, it's probably unnecessary to consider that unless you're locked into going into a specialized program that isn't necessarily offered everywhere... that would tend to be specialized STEM majors, so your daughter's interest in psychiatry/history could be accommodated most anywhere.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As for intended fields of study, it's probably unnecessary to consider that unless you're locked into going into a specialized program that isn't necessarily offered everywhere... that would tend to be specialized STEM majors, so your daughter's interest in psychiatry/history could be accommodated most anywhere.

Yes, I'm going to mine this thread for any insight I can find, hopefully it won't get too annoying.

This is very different than the approach we're taking. While programs are widely available, their reputation/perception or even actual quality vary.

That in turn leads me to another factor that hasn't been mentioned yet (afaik): location/reputation as it relates to eventual job prospects. For a prospective history teacher/professor it seems to me that looking at the bios of those working in places she can see herself working someday is a worthwhile venture. We've found definite trends/patterns/preferences exist within even larger school systems, a hiring bias (or at least applicant bias) that leads to seeing the same alma maters listed on a given faculty.

[larrymcg421]

re: 1600 vs 2400

It's not uncommon to hear students (and others) still refer to the 2-part score instead of the 3-part score. Even nearly a decade after it's introduction, not all universities consider the writing portion of the exam (where the extra 800 points come from) and many of those who do give it less than full weight even if they look.

While this is correct, I think many students incorrectly disregard the Writing portion. I work as an SAT/ACT tutor and I've found that the Writing section is the easiest place to get a huge score increase once they know the essay structure and the grammar concepts that the SAT focuses on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

While this is correct, I think many students incorrectly disregard the Writing portion. I work as an SAT/ACT tutor and I've found that the Writing section is the easiest place to get a huge score increase once they know the essay structure and the grammar concepts that the SAT focuses on.

The other thing worth mentioning here is how important due diligence is during the process. Know what the schools you're interested in do or don't require. Don't get caught off guard. If you happen to know that all of your choices that are well within reach don't look at the writing portion or use a holistic approach to admissions then it's less critical. If they're all weighting it on the high end then bear down.

[nol]

That's actually somewhat backwards to what they're doing with it (as I understand it). They normalize the AP/IB stuff to account for differing bonuses applied by different high schools.

There are bonuses the university applies but they're often less than what the HS add (another of the grade inflation tricks that let's half or more of a class graduate with a GPA over 4.00)

Yeah, same thing. I was just looking at it from the perspective of my backwards high school :D

Not only were all classes equally weighted, but an A+ was 4.33 while an A was 4.0. I was probably 5th/6th in my class while taking more APs than all the people above me combined. For class rank purposes, I couldn't keep up with people getting two automatic A pluses each semester for participating in band and choir, so it was nice to be one of the rare students whose GPA needed to be inflated rather than deflated for colleges.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I couldn't keep up with people getting two automatic A pluses each semester for participating in band and choir,

Ooh, another good point. Know what your prospective college strips out/retains from your load. Seems a lot of them remove all of those things from your GPA now (not sure, maybe they always have) and consider only core academic grades.

Extra-curriculars may be helpful on the application but they may not be included in the GPA the school uses to slot you academically.

[Young Drachma]

Isnt the SAT out of 2400? My brother scored a 2310 a few years ago

Pretty much no school cares about the Writing score, it's just a two-part score of critical math and reading that we care about.

[Young Drachma]

Greetings,

Here I am, a parent of a junior in high school that isn't in any athletic programs but has academic lettered the last 2 years, looks like she will this year. She has a 3.8 GPA and has scored just over 1400 on her SAT. She has 2 AP classes complete and tests passed and will be taking 3 more AP classes next year.

It is now college recruitment time for the juniors. She is getting the letters from schools all over, I know some of them but I don't know all of them. A lot of them are offering scholarships a couple are full ride offers.

I am looking to see if anyone has had personal experiences or family that has with some of the following schools :

Baldwin Wallace
Hofstra
Drexler
Roanoke College
University of Vermont
University of Hartford
St. Lawrence University
Brown University
Quinnipac
Le Moyne (We have a friend that has graduated from here, she wasn't like jump up and down excited, just stated it's a decent education)

The one we have both loved so far is Roanoke, right now we are taking into account atmosphere, dedication to students and doing research on several majors in each school. Just wondering if anyone has had experiences at any of these.

Nice list. Such a wide range of institutions there from Ivies to very good privates to you know, schools that aren't nearly as high on the list.

First thing is:

1) What does she want to major in? Comparing programs between schools is going to be a huge factor in your decision?

2) Does size of school matter to her?

3) How much does cost (excluding any financial aid packages?) matter?

3b) I ask this because if she falls in love with one school v. another and there's a difference in how much one offers versus another, will this be a determining factor or is it more about other factors? Decide this early on, so there are no surprises later.

4) Is she hoping/looking to apply early action/early decision? Decide this before the fall, so she can have a sense of when she's going to start getting applications together.

5) No one will really give you a recommendation now, but when the end of the year starts to get here, it might be a good idea to hit up her favorite teachers, mention she's applying to college early action and is going to work on most of this stuff this summer; so she'd like a recommendation. Waiting until the fall is the alternative, but you want to hit them up when they're not as stressed, because EVERYONE will be hitting them up for recs and both common app and institutional apps require at least one (some as many as 3) teacher recommendations, so doing this is important.

Not now, though. They'll be annoyed and think it's too soon. But in May or June, it's worth a shot.

6) My suggestion would be to take a look at that list and start to really refine your decision-making, because there are so many random schools there between middle-of-the-road private schools, that you'll want to her to decide what makes the most sense. RANKING LISTS REALLY DON'T MATTER, but what they do help you do is find similar schools that might fit with her particular interests and/or might be interested in offering her money.

For instance, if you're looking at Brown, consider Washington University in St. Louis or Emory or Carnegie Mellon as they attract the same kinds of students. Though with a 1400 and a 3.8, without a lot of extra curriculars, she's going to find schools aren't going to throw a truckload of money at her.

Being out of state and going to UVM (Vermont) isn't really that special, because almost everyone there is out of state and it's really, really expensive. Burlington is awesome and it's a good state school, but...if she's looking for a flagship state school, there are better choices (unless she just falls in love with the location)

I've noticed almost all but UVM on your list are private schools, too. Is that intentional? One of the things you'll find those kinds of credentials that she has, that a state school (does said daughter live in NY State?) especially in NY would probably throw money at her depending on her major because those are the kinds of students they'd love to get.

Looking at privates, even a full ride from a liberal arts college might seem to glisten, but you have to choose wisely because if she gets there and ends up not liking it, transferring you won't get anything close to the money (if anything) she got to go there.

That should get you started. I obviously have more...but hit up college fairs if you haven't and really expand your search, because I think it'd be good for her to see the melange of schools out there that would be interested and to give you a sense of the opportunities that are out there.

Admissions counselors can tell you far more about their newer offerings since they are there everyday living this stuff and then you can use the internet/print materials to augment and visit places you'd like to check out if you see something that works.

But with that academic profile, I can think of a few SUNYs that'd offer a full ride for sure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm not the target or the OP, but thanks for doing that. It was a good checklist for us on our own process as well.

[Young Drachma]

I'm not the target or the OP, but thanks for doing that. It was a good checklist for us on our own process as well.

Happy to help. Still in higher ed, just left admissions a month ago. So happy to share my .02 especially while it's still semi-relevant and while I might be able to connect you all with people who could be useful at different schools around the country.

[MacroGuru]

Guys,

This is all amazing, I have been away since my earlier answers today and it looks like it is help Jon out as well. She will be with me on Sat or Sunday this weekend and we will go over this thread as well then. But I will be reading throughout the rest of the day / tonight and responding.

I truly appreciate all the help and advice.

[Flasch186]

My copy of TCY says the SAT goes to 1600.

Its so outdated though its likely wrong now.

[nol]

(I think that's the joke)

[Young Drachma]

Also, the essay/writing sample that the Common Application requires is really, really important. I mean, it can get you into places you wouldn't get into. It's the only part of the application that's from the student themselves. So don't use it as a chance to talk about your dead grandfather and how he inspired you or your cat Fluffy unless it's really going to help someone give context to your grades/experiences,etc.

Like the essay will get someone to advocate for you, especially if it's your first choice or whatever. So it's an opportunity to tug the heartstrings or inspire, depending on your approach.

But your best source of information is always going to be the admissions counselors. They're the ones reading the applications and with a student with a solid profile, they're going to be interested and so, letting them know you're out there simply doesn't hurt.

[MacroGuru]

Wait, she's still a junior, right? So she's just figuring out where to apply? You need to do two things to start with.

1) Buy the US News catalog. Select a wide swath of schools in 3 categories --
a) schools where her 1400 2-part SAT score (congrats) put her above the 75th percentile... this is the scholarship-mining sector, and a possible home for some in-state schools
b) schools where that SAT score is within the 25/75 band... realistic admit shots at in-state, out-of-state, and private schools
c) schools where that score is still below the 25th (are there any for >1400s? this may not be relevant, in which case you expand the size of group b.)

2) Once you've picked a fair amount of schools, just get on the ground and visit as many as you can. Walk around and get a feel for the campus, the main strip off the edge of campus, the town/city it's in. Tour if you want to, but know you're getting their best pitch. I know that the opportunity to visit lines up with breaks when students tend not to be around colleges in numbers, but it'll do.

After that, once your daughter has a gut feel for some of the places she's interested in, start asking around and narrowing the list down to a number of schools where you're comfortable she'll get into a school she will be happy to attend and that won't bankrupt you.

This is an imperfect process. But in matching a child with a school, mere exposure (in visits, in applications) is one of the best things you can get. As for intended fields of study, it's probably unnecessary to consider that unless you're locked into going into a specialized program that isn't necessarily offered everywhere... that would tend to be specialized STEM majors, so your daughter's interest in psychiatry/history could be accommodated most anywhere.

Thank you for this...we will definitely look into this.

[MacroGuru]

1) What does she want to major in? Comparing programs between schools is going to be a huge factor in your decision?

Right now, she is looking at psychiatry or history

2) Does size of school matter to her?

not really

3) How much does cost (excluding any financial aid packages?) matter?

We are definitely cost conscious outside of the financial aid packages but she is willing to work and I am willing to put forth some $ if we have to.

3b) I ask this because if she falls in love with one school v. another and there's a difference in how much one offers versus another, will this be a determining factor or is it more about other factors? Decide this early on, so there are no surprises later.

If she falls in love with a school it will be that school, I know how she is.

4) Is she hoping/looking to apply early action/early decision? Decide this before the fall, so she can have a sense of when she's going to start getting applications together.

Not necessarily, she could graduate early but I think she wants to make a decision as to who to apply to early. I know she could graduate in December if she wants to.

5) No one will really give you a recommendation now, but when the end of the year starts to get here, it might be a good idea to hit up her favorite teachers, mention she's applying to college early action and is going to work on most of this stuff this summer; so she'd like a recommendation. Waiting until the fall is the alternative, but you want to hit them up when they're not as stressed, because EVERYONE will be hitting them up for recs and both common app and institutional apps require at least one (some as many as 3) teacher recommendations, so doing this is important.

She already has her 3 letters of recommendation (AP Psych teacher, AP Spanish Teacher, AP Euro Teacher). Her ELA teacher is writing one as well.

6) My suggestion would be to take a look at that list and start to really refine your decision-making, because there are so many random schools there between middle-of-the-road private schools, that you'll want to her to decide what makes the most sense. RANKING LISTS REALLY DON'T MATTER, but what they do help you do is find similar schools that might fit with her particular interests and/or might be interested in offering her money.

I knew I forgot a school. Washington University in St. Louis was one of the first schools to reach out to her and they have been hitting her up quite hard. She met with an admissions counselor there last month.

SUNY schools won't recruit, they require you to submit to them, then the financial aid will go through. I think that is why you see more private schools on that list right now.

These are the schools that are offering some form of scholarship to her. One thing I failed to mention is she is in a couple of clubs, was just invited to join the NHS which she is doing and will be volunteering at a local hospital.

This kid is dedicated to get to school, dedicated to get it paid for and she is working her ass off at it. I am extremely proud of her for that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, same thing. I was just looking at it from the perspective of my backwards high school :D

Not only were all classes equally weighted, but an A+ was 4.33 while an A was 4.0. I was probably 5th/6th in my class while taking more APs than all the people above me combined. For class rank purposes, I couldn't keep up with people getting two automatic A pluses each semester for participating in band and choir, so it was nice to be one of the rare students whose GPA needed to be inflated rather than deflated for colleges.

Yeah - I suppose the whole "GPA calculation" has changed since I was in HS.

[SackAttack]

I thought the SAT was 1600?

LOLOld

They changed that when I was still living in CA, so 5+ years ago.

[molson]

I feel like it's so much harder for kids to find great jobs out of college and make money relatively soon. When I was younger I was always a believer that it didn't really matter what you studied in undergrad, it was more important to just get into a good school and do well to keep your options open. Is that still the case? If I was a college junior today (with my current 35-year old brain, however that would work), the expensive liberal artsy northeast colleges would turn me off. They just don't feel like training grounds for real careers. I'm sure plenty of people from those schools do great with humanities-based degrees, it would just terrify me to take that path. I'd start with a real specific path and career in mind, that I could always try to change later if I felt that was best. If you want to be a psychiatrist, or a history teacher, or hedge your bets a little and at least follow those two specific paths early on, I'd think you'd have such a big advantage over others in that field, or others who weren't pursuing any particular field.

[Young Drachma]

1) What does she want to major in? Comparing programs between schools is going to be a huge factor in your decision?

[/B]

Everyone "recruits" and all it takes is one college fair to discover that. The real culprit in your search right now is she's a junior. No one really can do anything for her until this summer and even then, until she applies no one will be able to say much. But they'll be very, very interested.

What I meant by early action:

Early decision versus early action
Early decision plans are binding — a student who is accepted as an ED applicant must attend the college.

Early action plans are nonbinding — students receive an early response to their application but do not have to commit to the college until the normal reply date of May 1. Counselors need to make sure that students understand this key distinction between the two plans.

Approximately 450 colleges have early decision or early action plans, and some have both. Some colleges offer a nonbinding option called single-choice early action, under which applicants may not apply ED or EA to any other college.


The College Board goes into more detail about early action v. early decision here. (http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/applications/early)

So this has nothing to do with graduating in December. (I'd encourage graduating in June like normal and enrolling in fall, enrolling early usually impacts your scholarship awards from the institution.)

With the Common app, she can still apply to the good schools on her list, the Browns and Wash Us of the world, while still applying to SUNY schools as well. Not to be a booster, but if you're a NY state resident it makes the most sense to consider them because the schools are just as good -- if not better, in some cases -- than privates out of state and they're way cheaper.

Two other suggestions:

1) take the ACT instead of the SAT just once during her junior year to see how she does. The ACT is different than the SAT and most schools accept both or either. For SAT schools they'll convert ACT scores to SAT and if she did 1400 on the two-part SAT, it's possible she'll score even higher on the ACT since it's really just a test of what she knows rather than a theoretical test and it can make eligible for more scholarships or more competitive for admissions at schools where she'd otherwise be a reach.

2) Wait until summer to start planning your visits. Just use this spring to do college fairs. If a school you're interested in has a "junior day" and it's within distance and you want to check it out, that's worthwhile but only if it's someplace that's not a burden. Honestly, differentiation between schools when you're doing a lot of them can be scant especially for the majors you listed.

So the things that will matter are going to be 1) class size 2) faculty to student ratio 3) how the dorms are and how long students are required to live on campus 4) is there anything to do in town outside of class 5) how diverse is the campus (like people from around the world, etc.) 6) how many majors/programs does the school offer?

Distinct programs matter because if she's not entirely sure what she wants to major in, having a school that lets you dabble in a lot of different things can be very useful, especially if she gets into school and decides OMGZ THIS WOULD BE INTERESTING and it's wildly different than what she went in thinking she wanted to do. At a school with fewer offerings, that can be difficult to pivot and you're exposed to less.

So the search right now matters, but your real search isn't going to kick into full gear until the summer/fall timeframe when she can start to apply places. So getting that list honed now and then narrowed down by the time the summer arrives so you can start to visit places and really narrow it down to 8-10 schools (4 locks, 2-3 likelys and 2-3 reaches) before application time because those application fees add up and it's really a waste to apply to 10 schools if you can get your list narrowed down to 5 or 6.

[Young Drachma]

I feel like it's so much harder for kids to find great jobs out of college and make money relatively soon. When I was younger I was always a believer that it didn't really matter what you studied in undergrad, it was more important to just get into a good school and do well to keep your options open. Is that still the case? If I was a college junior today (with my current 35-year old brain, however that would work), the expensive liberal artsy northeast colleges would turn me off. They just don't feel like training grounds for real careers. I'm sure plenty of people from those schools do great with humanities-based degrees, it would just terrify me to take that path. I'd start with a real specific path and career in mind, that I could always try to change later if I felt that was best.

It's far more important for kids to learn to critical think and write if they're undecided than to just pursue the hottest job out there. Because a lot of these kids are actually coming out of HS thinking about careers. It's rare I get kids who come to me thinking "oh, I want to be a liberal arts major."

Parents of all stripes rarely want that. Everyone is thinking "business" or "criminal justice" or "pre-med" or "nursing." It's always usually focused on things people perceive to be the best shots at a successful job.

But it's all fools gold because you know as a lawyer how many people get into a career and then after all of that training go "what the hell am I doing?" and then they're in their 30s back to square one towards something they either wanted all along or wayward looking for their next career. For the people who can be well heeled, it's not as painful but for folks who never really get their footing it's problematic.

So yeah, it's still important to get into the best ranked school you can and keep your options open, but it depends on the kid. Some kids need the structure and what I tell them a lot is..you're almost better off going to a state school and doing extremely well than going somewhere you'll not stand out. People are always pursuing top graduates of whatever school, even if it means getting your start in that local region or whatever.

The one consistent them from the past to now is, it's about the right fit. But it's a hard thing to make happen.

[Lathum]

I majored in History at Washington. While no Ivy League a very good school. I now work , happily mind you, for an insurance company. If she plans on a career in academia she needs to be prepared for a lot more than 4 years of schooling.

[BishopMVP]

Yeah - no way the overall average freshman at UGA has a 3.83. That's got to be honors program.You'd be shocked at how much GPA's have shot up at state schools the past 5-10 years - even when I applied you would get into UMass with a 3.0 and an 1100 (out of 16), now that's not even getting you considered unless you're an athlete, a minority, or something really stands out on the app. Another thing to consider is how GPA is reported - for our lacrosse recruiting tournaments I collate and make binders for college coaches for recruiting, and the Mass/NY public school kids all refer to their unweighted GPA's, while most kids from Georgia/Texas/Private Schools tend to use what's effectively a weighted GPA that's closer to being out of 4.5 or 5 than the strict 4.0 system schools around here use. Kids at a Concord-Carlisle or Wellesley don't take "AP" courses per se - they may take Honors classes and then take the AP test. Actual admissions directors are smart enough to take that into account, but it does throw some statistical noise into the rankings and averages.Baldwin Wallace
Hofstra
Drexler
Roanoke College
University of Vermont
University of Hartford
St. Lawrence University
Brown University
Quinnipac
Le Moyne (We have a friend that has graduated from here, she wasn't like jump up and down excited, just stated it's a decent education)

The one we have both loved so far is Roanoke, right now we are taking into account atmosphere, dedication to students and doing research on several majors in each school. Just wondering if anyone has had experiences at any of these.I'm in kind of a different world, since all the kids I work with are athletic recruits, so this may be off if a particular school is notably higher or lower than its peers when it comes to athletes (for example, Holy Cross gives no exceptions, and they've been bad for years, while I've known kids with below 3.0 GPA's and barely 1000 SAT's who got into Colgate and Brown.) And of course, it really comes down to her feel and what type of college life she wants - I could've gone to "better" schools than UMass, but I loved the campus and bigger student body, and like any state flagship it was rigorous and challenging if I took the right courses while also having its share of blow-off courses if I wanted an easy elective.

From your list, Hofstra, UVM, U Hartford and Drexel to an extent all kind of jump out as outliers. In addition to their lower reputation, all but UVM have fairly poor campuses/locations IIRC (Drexel in particular is consistently the ugliest campus in the country). If she's looking for a more urban location, I like St. Joseph's and Villanova near Philly and Tufts near Boston.

DT mentioned some of the NY/PA privates that are peers of SLU/LeMoyne - Hamilton, Vassar, Gettyburg, Swarthmore.

If you loved Roanoke, Lynchburg and Richmond are two more worth looking into. Elon and Davidson might fall into that category, but I have less experience with them.

One thing I do encourage kids to do is at least look a little further and check out some schools farther away at this early stage - YD listed Washington University in St. Louis, Emory in Atlanta, and Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. I'd add Case Western in Cleveland, Rollins and Eckerd in Florida, and McGill up in Montreal. If she's adventurous enough, you could even look in the UK - my sister went to school at St. Andrews in Scotland, and even accounting for airfare it cost significantly less than most NESCAC's/private schools around here.

[molson]

I've never heard private schools referred to as "privates" before, but I like it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd add Case Western in Cleveland

Really randomly, one of my son's tennis teammates -- an insanely bright kid who might be one of the hardest workers I've come across -- ended up going there on an athletic schollie this year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've never heard private schools referred to as "privates" before, but I like it.

Heh, we often use a phrase like "he went to one of the privates" ... depending upon your location in Georgia there really aren't all that many candidates that would describe ... 'cause we'd call the lower-end ones "one of the little privates" :)

[sterlingice]

Heh, we often use a phrase like "he went to one of the privates" ... depending upon your location in Georgia there really aren't all that many candidates that would describe ... 'cause we'd call the lower-end ones "one of the little privates" :)

I'm thinking in Atlanta saying "he went to one of the privates" has a different connotation.

SI

[Drake]

Take all of the freshman class profile shit with a grain of salt. Everybody is cooking the books in that regard (where we define "cooking the books" as the numbers are completely legitimate if you know the context in which the metrics are being applied and the university-specific formulas being applied to put as much shine on it as you can...as a recruiting tool for next year's class). Dredging up the data for those numbers is part of what I do professionally.

(And in case you're wondering, your average 3.83's today are just as fucking stupid as the 3.25's your university was bragging about in the 1980's. Think of it like inflation.)

The other reality, however, is that admissions really are much more competitive than they used to be, especially for state schools. They're actively targeting kids from the states around you and the global high achievement market. At my university, the rule of thumb is that one non-resident pays for three in-state kids. To get into your own state's university, you need to really be top notch, because the market is global, and you're the equivalent of a loss-leader thrown out there to keep the state legislature happy and not cutting another 10% from your budget. (I've sat in meetings where the idea was floated -- seriously -- of just re-branding as *not* a state university and cutting ties with the legislative dole. I'm not kidding when I say that we got 7% of our budget from the state this year. People were pissed when that number dropped into the mid-20's. Now it's 7. When your neighbors are griping because their kid got rejected by State U even though they've paid their taxes for 25 years, they're not kidding. If their kid wasn't in the top 10% of his class, he probably didn't get much of a look -- 'cuz there are a 1000 kids coming out of Malaysia who were, and will pay 4x the tuition their kid will bring to the table. I'm not defending any of this, just telling you what the state of higher ed is. There are routes around the traditional admissions process that make all of this moot for state schools, but that's a different discussion.)

[Galaxy]

Exactly, they aren't a full ride offer right now, so I am freaking about costs as this is one of the schools she is leaning towards.

I believe the Ivy League schools-thanks to their deep endowments-offer very nice financial packages based on needs for all students that are accepted and attend, even more than the standard school.

[Young Drachma]

Really randomly, one of my son's tennis teammates -- an insanely bright kid who might be one of the hardest workers I've come across -- ended up going there on an athletic schollie this year.

They're D3, it must've been academic.

[Galaxy]

I feel like it's so much harder for kids to find great jobs out of college and make money relatively soon. When I was younger I was always a believer that it didn't really matter what you studied in undergrad, it was more important to just get into a good school and do well to keep your options open. Is that still the case? If I was a college junior today (with my current 35-year old brain, however that would work), the expensive liberal artsy northeast colleges would turn me off. They just don't feel like training grounds for real careers. I'm sure plenty of people from those schools do great with humanities-based degrees, it would just terrify me to take that path. I'd start with a real specific path and career in mind, that I could always try to change later if I felt that was best. If you want to be a psychiatrist, or a history teacher, or hedge your bets a little and at least follow those two specific paths early on, I'd think you'd have such a big advantage over others in that field, or others who weren't pursuing any particular field.

I think today the brand name of the college you go to is even more important than ever, especially if his daughter wants to go into academics.

[Young Drachma]

I think today the brand name of the college you go to is even more important than ever, especially if his daughter wants to go into academics.

Being successful and well-rounded in undergrad is more important than trying to plan for what you might think you might wanna be seven years post-grad.

With a solid GPA and test score, she's not gonna go to a 4th tier school someplace, so going even to a public and doing really well at a school like that (say, graduate in 3 years. 3.9/4.0) is going to look a heck of a lot more interesting than going someplace that might not be as good a culture fit.

In a rush to out-elite everyone, so many parents negate the cultural fit for their kid. You have to make sure your kid and you can see yourself in the school you pick, because it's gotta work for you for four years.

I don't place too much importance on a student who doesn't know what they want to major in. Unless they're dead set and have been working towards it, it's just as well they go someplace that'll give them a strong well-rounded foundation, where they can interact with different people and have professors who'll support them, know who they are and have a community where they can grow.

Because elite or not, nothing's worst than being somewhere you don't fit in.

[rowech]

I'm going to go counter to a lot of information that is being thrown out here. From my experiences in watching my students go through the process, I think in 90% of cases it really doesn't matter where a student goes to college. It matters how you interview, it matters what types of internships and connections you have developed, and it matters how much of your schooling you will end up paying for.

Unless she wants to do something that has schools that are clear front runners in those areas, I would suggest finding out what she wants to do, find some universities that have nice solid programs in that area that are close enough to a big city where she will have plenty of intership opportunities and chances to build connections. Find out what types of scholarship packages they will offer to somebody with her transcript.

I have watched so many of our students go to the University of Toledo for engineering -- a school that is an afterthought in Ohio, they get awesome internships, awesome money coming out of college, they work a couple of years and move up quickly.

I've seen my cousin choose to go Cincinnati over Case Western, Michigan, and others as a biomedical engineering major and her experiences have been outstanding in the same way.

Be careful falling for the name of the school. Sometimes, and in my opinion many times, it's not worth what you think it is. Like anything, if you shop around, you can find some great places at a great price and if the numbers are right, possibly even free.

[Izulde]

Well, the Cincinnati example isn't quite the best one. They're actually one of the faster rising state universities in quality and reputation, similar to what UVA did about 10 years ago.

[Drake]

Because elite or not, nothing's worst than being somewhere you don't fit in.

All of the retention numbers we crunch point to this. By the end of the freshman year, it isn't the university's academic reputation, the quality of the profs, the mentoring programs or anything you'd think as post-college parent that brings kids back for their sophomore year.

It's engagement, community, and how much the individual student feels like they belong to the school they're at.

For most kids, that first to second year transition has become more of an emotional decision than an intellectual one.

[BishopMVP]

The other reality, however, is that admissions really are much more competitive than they used to be, especially for state schools. They're actively targeting kids from the states around you and the global high achievement market. At my university, the rule of thumb is that one non-resident pays for three in-state kids. To get into your own state's university, you need to really be top notch, because the market is global, and you're the equivalent of a loss-leader thrown out there to keep the state legislature happy and not cutting another 10% from your budget. (I've sat in meetings where the idea was floated -- seriously -- of just re-branding as *not* a state university and cutting ties with the legislative dole. I'm not kidding when I say that we got 7% of our budget from the state this year. People were pissed when that number dropped into the mid-20's. Now it's 7.)It is a fight between emulating "their peers" and following the mission of, you know, providing a cheap education to children who grow up in the state, but some states do make an attempt at supporting the in-state kids. The Massachusetts legislature long ago passed a requirement that at least 75% of those admitted to UMass have to be from in-state. Now, that's admitted, not matriculated, so yeah they love it when a kid with a 4.0 and a 1600 who's going Ivy but using UMass as a safety school applies, but it at least puts a cap on it. I think Texas has the rule where if you graduate in the top 5?10? percent of your class at a public HS and pass the state tests you automatically get admitted to public universities in that state. (For all the times that Rick Perry is/was a complete buffoon, he had some really good ideas about public education and how to keep it affordable and accessible.)

This also skips over the main reason why standards have gone up - namely, more qualified candidates. Even without the pursuit of foreigners or out of state students, the growth in qualified in-state students has easily surpassed the growth in class sizes at high-ranking public universities and the respectable small liberal arts colleges.
I think today the brand name of the college you go to is even more important than ever, especially if his daughter wants to go into academics.For fields that require post-college education the grad school you go to is definitely important, but undergrad doesn't seem to matter much. 98% of undergrads admitted to Harvard end up graduating and over 70% with honors - they can talk all they want about their admissions department, but everyone knows there is rampant grade inflation over there. And even without that, a 3.8 at a Swarthmore or even UMass is worth more than a 3.0 at Brown when applying to grad schools. Now, for grad school/law school/medical school, yes your Harvards and Yales are almost always better.

[nol]

Echoing that brand name doesn't matter (except for when the school is obsessed enough with its US News ranking to offer a crapload of financial aid). No degree is work $80-100k more than one in the same subject at another university. It's much better to be the big fish in a small pond in terms of getting recommendations for internships, grad schools and such down the line.

Also the inflation comment about a 3.83 just as smart/stupid as the 3.25s back in the day is mostly true, but I'd also suspect the inflation to be a symptom of income inequality where the better-off parents are in a bigger arms race than ever before to get their kids the best SAT tutoring and all those other things that are supposed to help "game" the admissions system.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They're D3, it must've been academic.

{nods} The athletic was poor wording on my part, he basically went there on scholarship because they wanted him on the tennis team. He's more than academically qualified for it but the chance to play tennis is why he took their offer instead of quite a few bigger name schools where his tennis future was more doubtful.

[vex]

(I think that's the joke)

Thanks:)

[BishopMVP]

Also the inflation comment about a 3.83 just as smart/stupid as the 3.25s back in the day is mostly true, but I'd also suspect the inflation to be a symptom of income inequality where the better-off parents are in a bigger arms race than ever before to get their kids the best SAT tutoring and all those other things that are supposed to help "game" the admissions system.Sure, the richer parents are at the forefront there, but it's also a function of the "worse-off" kids actually applying for and going to college instead of just getting a job out of high school. (And also the attendant structural economic changes that have completely devalued a HS degree.)

[rowech]

Well, the Cincinnati example isn't quite the best one. They're actually one of the faster rising state universities in quality and reputation, similar to what UVA did about 10 years ago.

Which is my point. People kept telling here over and over which schools she needed to go to and she chose UC for the reasons I stated. Do the research and you will find other similar great bargains and great fits.

[MacroGuru]

Again, a ton of great advice. We will be sitting down today and going through this thread.

I will probably be posting more questions tonight and this thread I hope to keep going for a while.

[Galaxy]

For fields that require post-college education the grad school you go to is definitely important, but undergrad doesn't seem to matter much. 98% of undergrads admitted to Harvard end up graduating and over 70% with honors - they can talk all they want about their admissions department, but everyone knows there is rampant grade inflation over there. And even without that, a 3.8 at a Swarthmore or even UMass is worth more than a 3.0 at Brown when applying to grad schools. Now, for grad school/law school/medical school, yes your Harvards and Yales are almost always better.

Your graduate exam scores have a big role as well. I hear the grade inflation complaints about the Harvards of the world, but if you admitting the most academically gifted kids around, would their GPA averages skew on the higher end compared to an average school whose class makeup isn't nearly as strong?

[Buccaneer]

Sorry to bump another thread but perhaps someone can explain something else to me. I read an article on most 'dangerous' college campuses (i.e., crime rate) and San Diego State was on the list. In the article, it said this:

With tuition ranging from $19,844 for California residents plus an additional $11,549 for room and board

I fell out of my chair. When I was there a little over 30 years ago, tuition and room/board were each under $1000 for California residents. I know college tuition has gotten out of control ($50k-$75 per year!?) but at a commuter school like SDSU, I cannot believe it's over $30k for in-state. What has caused such an astronomical increase in three decades even for schools like SDSU?

[molson]

What has caused such an astronomical increase in three decades even for schools like SDSU?

Easy loan money, I'd guess. The more money made available for loans, the more schools are happy to find a home for it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I fell out of my chair. When I was there a little over 30 years ago, tuition and room/board were each under $1000 for California residents. I know college tuition has gotten out of control ($50k-$75 per year!?) but at a commuter school like SDSU, I cannot believe it's over $30k for in-state. What has caused such an astronomical increase in three decades even for schools like SDSU?

Not sure what the SDSU environment was like 30ish years ago so all I can do is ask questions here I think

1) Was it ranked as "the #1 most productive research university in the country" at the time?

2) Was it turning down nearly 2/3rd of applicants back then (current acceptance rate is 37%)

3) Was it among the top producers of Fulbright scholars in the country at the time? (a fact that would likely give it the ability to demand a higher rate)

4) Did it have the 2nd highest SAT cut score of the 30 or so schools in the system?

While the increase seems utterly insane over that 30 year time period, my point is probably that it doesn't really seem to be what I think of as a "commuter school" at this point either.

[Buccaneer]

Wow, I guess you're right. Back then, they had over 36,000 students - mostly in-state - and a 2.0 hs gpa. Hard to change perceptions from real experiences, I suppose.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wow, I guess you're right. Back then, they had over 36,000 students - mostly in-state - and a 2.0 hs gpa. Hard to change perceptions from real experiences, I suppose.

Avg GPA/SAT/ACT for admitted freshmen is now 3.75/1144/25 ... and the number of students enrolled is right around that same figure.

That's the same avg GPA for inbound freshmen at Vanderbilt, although with considerably lower SAT/ACT numbers. Those look to be in line with places like Mercer, James Madison and similar.

[NobodyHere]

By the way, I'm only seeing SDSU as costing only $6800 in tuition and fees per year. Of course that's for in-state residents.

[King of New York]

As for why college tuition has gotten so insanely high, there are a couple of factors:

1) Easy loan money. Yes, that's an important factor. But don't forget the other ones.

2) Rise in wealth inequality. Remember, each school has a finite (and relatively small) number of seats that it can offer. (Online courses might change this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.) Because schools do not have the option of offering 6 million seats and making just a little bit of money off each one, they have to maximize the revenue generated by each one of their finite seats. If there are people out there willing and able to pay 60,000 dollars for a seat--and if there is a substantial and rising number of people for whom 60K is, in fact, chump change--then schools are going to charge 60K. Schools are setting their tuitions as high as possible in order to maximize their take from the children of the 1 percent and from wealthy non-US (especially Chinese) families, and then discounting tuition (through financial aid) for everyone else.

Is this a sustainable financial model? Who knows?

3) Herd mentality. I've been in the room when college administrators discuss how high to raise tuition. Their main consideration? How high other schools raised their own tuition last year. It's no concidence that tuitions have congregated around certain price points: including room and board, around 30K for state schools, 60K for privates. Everyone's always watching what everyone else is doing.

4) Supply and demand. No one's building new colleges right now. Demand is soaring, supply stays the same, and prices go up as a result.

5) Emphasis on research. Research is really, really expensive, and high tuition supports research.

Administrative bloat, which is real enough, is more of an effect than a cause of soaring tuition.

[Izulde]

Don't forget the state legislatures constantly slashing budgets for public universities as well.

The administrative bloat makes me furious.

[britrock88]

As someone in higher ed administration, I will say that the ever-growing web of federal regulations that apply to colleges explains the growth in campus general counsel offices, for one.

[sabotai]

Don't forget the state legislatures constantly slashing budgets for public universities as well.

The administrative bloat makes me furious.

This.

http://budgetandpolicy.org/images/Figure5_StateFunding_v_4yrTuition_Blogpost.jpg

[BishopMVP]

3) Herd mentality. I've been in the room when college administrators discuss how high to raise tuition. Their main consideration? How high other schools raised their own tuition last year. It's no concidence that tuitions have congregated around certain price points: including room and board, around 30K for state schools, 60K for privates. Everyone's always watching what everyone else is doing.That's a decent point. Beyond the difference between in-state state school, state school, and private school I've never heard a kid (or their parents) really make a distinction between schools based on price.

[Flame Eater]

Hey Macro....Any updates?

My #1 daughter (a musician) has pretty much decided on Nazareth College (Rochester). We also checked out the Crane School of Music (SUNY Potsdam). It was okay, but you're right: SUNY schools don't recruit and there's little aid. Naz is throwing $$$ at my daughter, but Potsdam is like, "Hey, we accepted you. What else do you want?"