To Greenlight or not to Greenlight

[Solecismic]

I was interested in a discussion of the pros and cons of trying a Greenlight on Steam for FOF7.

One question is whether Steam is even still interested in indie developers, given Newell's comments about moving away from Greenlight. This could simply be a waste of time and money.

Another question is whether Steam is useful for a product that's already a couple of months old.

I do need to get the word out there about FOF7. I used to do this through review requests, but things don't work that way as much any more.

If I were to go the Greenlight route and it were approved, I would set up an "exchange" of sorts where we'd assign a free Steam code to anyone willing to turn in their purchased ViaTech code. That way, people who prefer the Steam convenience wouldn't need to purchase again.

The game would still be available through ViaTech.

Anyway, I'm interested in arguments pro and con.

[Antmeister]

One question is whether Steam is even still interested in indie developers, given Newell's comments about moving away from Greenlight. This could simply be a waste of time and money.


As are as whether they are still interested in indie developers, I would have to say yes, there is still a slew of new stuff coming out on steam on a weekly basis that is from indie developers. Now as far as time and money, that is something that you would have to answer because I do not know what is all involved to Greenlight a software product. Probably best to ask the developers on the board (Mark and Brian) would have had their products placed on Steam.


Another question is whether Steam is useful for a product that's already a couple of months old.

This does not matter. There are games on Steam that and years, even decades old so a few months will not hurt you.


Anyway, I'm interested in arguments pro and con.

As far as pros, you will have more of an audience to your game and since you already have a number of members on FOFC, just rating the game alone can give it more exposure for those who are on the fence. Since you are in a niche market and there aren't any other football sims like this game on Steam, then you would have a leg up on those that may follow.

The cons I see only comes with those games they call Early Access. If you ever go to Steam and are about to release another version, I would avoid Early Access because people already feel this is a gamble. The only other con I see is if you are not the first true American football to be on Steam first, your game will be compared to the first one that does.

[aston217]

You never know if they're interested if you don't try. Gotta 'sell' it, but that's true for anyone, I think, and the positives are enormous....granted, I don't know what the costs are. What are the costs?

[chinaski]

Its worth a shot, Steam is a goldmine for a lot of developers, especially indie. However, I think the current price of FOF7 is too high for Steam. There are just far too many amazing games on there for under 20$.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

I do need to get the word out there about FOF7.

In my opinion, this is the most important part. You need to get the word out before you attempt going on steam. But how best to do this?

I have a couple of somewhat radical suggestions.

1) Make your own official game message board for FOF.

2) Put a link to that message board on a splash screen for your game like OOTP does.

3) Concentrate just on graphics for your next update.

The FOF message board used to be about FOF. It used to be about text sims, now it is just for guys who like to talk about things.

The end result is that on the FOF section of the message board the earliest message on the front page is from Feb 1. Compare that to the official ootp14 message board, where the earliest message on the front page is from Feb 23.

Even this very thread has hardly had any views and it is an important thread about the future of the game!

Also there is no official place to put bug reports. There is no official place to put suggestions for the next game. The message board is no longer conducive or friendly to talking FOF. Heck, even football. The thoughtful messages you put on your frontier blog should be generating a lot more discussion than they do.

Make a new FOF message board that is just about football and FOF. Maybe it won't work, but at least it will be the focus of the entire board unlike the state of the current board.

Then put a link to that board in your game on a splash screen on the game. To encourage people to register for the new board, offer to put people's names in draft classes. On the message board, put up stickies that encourage discussion on bugs, suggestions and debate around your frontier blog topics.

Lastly I would focus on graphics, I'm no market researcher, but by far the most popular thread about FOF is about the graphics. Bite the bullet and focus on a massive upgrade on the graphics. Hopefully this will generate sales and will allow you to focus more on the nuances of the game, gameplanning and financial stuff in newer versions.

The fof community has been great for you and quite frankly has been great for me too. However, it is time for you to start a new community for your game that will focus just on your game and football to grow a following so that way your support will be strong enough to do a kickstarter or to sell a game on steam etc.

[MIJB#19]

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I think there's an easy explanation toEven this very thread has hardly had any views and it is an important thread about the future of the game!, I visited this page because on the front page I noticed that the last post is in a thread called 'greenlight...', then went to the FOF/TCY section and didn't see the thread. I don't even understand what made me try the Developer's Corner section, because to me it feels like a hidden part of the forum.

Fwiw, I hardly use Steam, so I don't feel at place to discuss the original topic.


Edit: moot point now, with Ben's links posted at the main forum and the FOF/TCY forum. :thumbsup:

[frnk55]

Its worth a shot, Steam is a goldmine for a lot of developers, especially indie. However, I think the current price of FOF7 is too high for Steam. There are just far too many amazing games on there for under 20$.
That is very true. I damn near didn't buy it because of that.

[Capital]

I have not bought the game yet in part because of other games, graphics project was ongoing and football season was ending. I will purchase the game when it gets closer to football next year and I'm guessing others are going to do the same. A"re-launch" nearing football season on Steam would be beneficial - not only to me but many others.

[Apathetic Lurker]

I can't see anyone buying this game on Steam at it's current price point....If I didn't know about it and saw it on Steam and thought it looked interesting i'd wait for the inevitable sale .

[A-Husker-4-Life]

It couldn't hurt, it would be the only Text based football game on steam but you may have to price it at $19.95 to get some interest built up. Good Luck Jim and I'll always support FOF.

[mckerney]

One question is whether Steam is even still interested in indie developers, given Newell's comments about moving away from Greenlight. This could simply be a waste of time and money.

I don't think Gabe Newell's comments on moving away from Greenlight were an indication that they're not interested in Indie developers anymore, he commented that the problem is that it's a bottleneck in the way of releasing more titles (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/199249/For_Gabe_Newell_Greenlight_is_just_a_stepping_stone_to_a_bigger_endgame.php).

Anyway, I'm interested in arguments pro and con.

As far as pros and cons on sales side:

Gamasutra: David Galindo's Blog - How much do indie PC devs make, anyways? (Part V) (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidGalindo/20140109/208337/How_much_do_indie_PC_devs_make_anyways_Part_V.php)

The Steam Launch

On October 8th, 2013, just a few days shy of one year since CSD officially launched, the game landed on Steam. And in just one day, I had made nearly $15,000 in gross sales, which was almost as much as I made in the entire last year on PC/Mac/Linux for CSD. In two days, I surpassed it. In one week, I had made over $50,000 in gross revenue… more than I did in the last three years as a game maker and barista. My family couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe it. Finally, I felt redeemed. This was a path that was more than a dozen years in the making, but I had finally made it.

...

Steam Total

So the total so far for Steam? After the normal revenue share and such, I’ve made over $130,000 in just three months on Steam. Typing that number still makes me shake my head. That’s impossible! No way. No. Way.

The grand total of units sold across all platforms is 52,539. That’s so much larger than anything I could have imagined, and so far daily sales average around 40-60 copies sold per day across all platforms (excluding sales/major promotional days).

Gamasutra - Defender's Quest: By the Numbers, Part 2 (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/186940/)

Full Steam Ahead

Everyone knows you can make a lot of money on Steam. But how, much, exactly? And what about other platforms? Let's break it down:

http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/186940/defq_piechart_sales_2012-2013.gif

Steam, unsurprisingly, is the lion's share of the market. However, over 40 percent of our revenue came from other sources -- and direct sales are still our number 2 source of overall revenue.

If you combine direct revenue + Kongregate Kreds, 32.6 percent of all revenue was earned outside of the major portals.

The first thing this chart tells me is that you should sell your game direct! Not only is it a big piece of the pie, you also get to keep most of the money (92 percent!), and build a direct relationship with those customers that no platform holder can yank away from you.

Besides, we would have never gotten on Steam and GOG had we not built up a base of direct sales to convince them with first.



The con that I think deserves mention is that a lot of the revenue comes from being featured in sales:
http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/186940/defq_sales_2012-2013_small_no_title.gif
The problem with that for indie developers is that there's no guarantee about being featured and getting the front page visibility that comes with those sales. Developers can set their own sales now, but it probably won't be as successful without being featured as one of the first things people see when they log onto Steam.

[mckerney]

It couldn't hurt, it would be the only Text based football game on steam but you may have to price it at $19.95 to get some interest built up. Good Luck Jim and I'll always support FOF.

It might not be the best idea drop the price right away when getting on Steam.

Sales and Pricing (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/186940/defenders_quest_by_the_numbers_.php?page=3)

When we initially released the game on January 19, 2012, the price was $6.99. We raised this to $9.99 when Gold Edition came out, and settled at $14.99 as the final price for the Steam/GOG release. We raised the price because we knew we would make most of our money during sales periods, and we needed to give ourselves room to go down. All previous owners of the game received free updates at no additional cost.

As expected, the majority of revenue from GOG and Steam came during sales periods. Note that this effect is not just due to the discount, however, but the combined effect of the discount along with featured promotion leading to a temporary boost in visibility.

We used fairly steep discounts (33, 50, and 66 percent off), and did so early in the game's release. We're not sure if that was the wisest move, and feel we might have underpriced ourselves during these sales periods. For our next title we'll likely use shallower discounts to see if there's any major difference in revenue.

So maybe if the goal is to sell it for $20 launch it might be a better idea instead to start with something like a $25 or $30 price tag with a launch week discount.

[wishbone]

I'll be honest and say that I have not purchased FOF7 yet. I had previously bought FOF4, The College Years and FOF2007 at the first opportunity but have waited on FOF7 specifically because I prefer to purchase in Steam. I don't want to deal with viatech anymore, I am not a fan of downloading whole games or separate patches for each update. I like that steam update my games while I sleep and I like that I can scan a list and choose a game. In Steam, FOF7 is a day 1 purchase for me. Outside of Steam it has been 60+.

[cartman]

I'd say it would be a great way to get more exposure for the game. Steam is by far the biggest online game marketplace. I know you have mentioned before about controlling the price. I posted a link earlier this week that said Steam was going to release tools to allow developers to do their own sales.

As you are basically a one man shop, take a look at what Banished has done recently. That game was also done by a single developer. I'd venture to say that without Steam as a distribution platform, not nearly as many people would have taken a chance on the game.

[Solecismic]

Thanks for the input. The blog about the Android port is particularly interesting.

Since the EA days, I've had remarkably consistent opening weeks. FOF7 opened a little below what I'm used to (maybe 90% of what I'm used to), but caught up through Christmas. But the wane has been a lot quicker. Of course, this is the latest in the year I've ever released a new product, and FOF has always sold better in-season than out. My guess is that 90% of past results is what I can expect moving forward.

I'll never get rich that way, and I'm only still in business because I banked most of what EA sent me (it's too bad we lost our Madden deal, because then I would be set financially), but as long as I don't buy a lot of toys, I can probably keep at this at least another couple of years.

It's hard to say what Steam could do. People wait for the sales, so I'd have to enter the market at a price where a sale would still be at a reasonable cost. Steam takes a higher percentage, too.

So one big question is whether having a text sports sim on Steam - one with bare bones graphics - can increase my sales to where EA had them for a couple of years. I'm OK with a sale price around $20 or so if that's the case.

Another question - is Steam a little like a country club? Right now, there's no way I can call my buddy Gabe on the phone and get his advice and support. But if they let me in, is it a more interactive process? Like they'll feature me if I put on a sale coinciding with training camp opening? Or is this still largely out of my control?

I also worry about my own role. I'm sure you've noticed by now that I'm not comfortable with the PR side of my job. I get what I need to do, but sometimes I just don't want to do it. The good thing I discovered when I bore down and got FOF7 done is that I'm still a capable programmer. The muscles I let go for a time built up quickly. It's all still in my head, and, really, another few years of experience have made a positive difference.

The bad thing is that I'm still remarkably lazy about PR and I have a harder time than ever going into a new arena and asking for attention. If someone tells me I suck, my internal reaction is always going to be, "well, I probably do suck, so why fight about it?" I'm more a business-side behind-the-scenes guy than a front man. Realizing all this, I know I need a business manager or an agent more than anything, but I have no idea how you get a good one without giving up a high percentage of the revenue. And, as stated before, I can make Solecismic work solo if I don't buy many toys, but there isn't enough to share.

So I know I need to work on a video if I'm going to start the Greenlight process, and I'm reacting to that with my usual lazy attitude - a sure sign that I really don't want to do this. Hopefully I can push through it and create something decent. And then we'll see where we are. I figure with the off-season a month old, there's never going to be a better time to start a Greenlight.

[mckerney]

Another question - is Steam a little like a country club? Right now, there's no way I can call my buddy Gabe on the phone and get his advice and support. But if they let me in, is it a more interactive process? Like they'll feature me if I put on a sale coinciding with training camp opening? Or is this still largely out of my control?

Indie platform confessional: Steam, Humble Store, Apple, Android | Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/16/indie-platform-confessional-steam-humble-store-apple-android/)

Has some answers on what it's like to work with Steam once you have a game on it. It looks like requesting promotion at a certain time is something you'd be able to do, though with limited space for midweek and weekend deals I wouldn't want to guess at how successful it might be. From a recent update (http://www.usgamer.net/articles/steam-will-allow-developers-to-set-their-own-sales) it looks like they added an easier way to request to be part of their week long deals which do offer added visability, though not as much as the midweek deals.



As far as success of sports text sims on Steam it's a pretty big range between Football Manager often having more concurrent players than any non-Valve title (http://store.steampowered.com/stats/) to OOTP peaking at 182 (http://steamcharts.com/app/263840) and Franchise Hockey Manager still stuck in Greenlight limbo 4 months later (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=187796545)

[antdroid]

I dont know the cost of getting a game into Steam or GOG, but if its feasible, I think the impact of the wide audience would greatly benefit the game even if you went to a cheaper price point. There's so many games I would never have even heard of if not for steam and its steam sales. The only reason I knew about this game was because I knew about it since the EA days and I just happened to be googling for a new football text sim and found out this was updated.

That said, the graphics in the game need to be updated and modernized more (even after latest update) and the website needs to be updated to an influx of new customers. Steam reaches a very large diverse audience and dated graphics may be a non-starter for many people.

[Solecismic]

The only other con I see is if you are not the first true American football to be on Steam first, your game will be compared to the first one that does.

I hope it doesn't work that way. I'm sure Football Mogul has outsold FOF by 10-to-1, because Clay has put together a better sales network and even gets his games into Wal-Mart. When I first started work on FOF, before I even talked about it on Usenet, Clay announced Football Mogul. I was terrified because he had this great product out there already and I thought no one would even look at my work as long as there was an alternative. But it worked out well. It turns out they are very different products and appeal to different customers. There's even significant crossover.

I've always operated under the assumption that competition builds sales for the entire genre, and people who are interested in a genre try different products and have different favorites at different times.

So competition works - Arlie has a couple of football games out there, and my sales always increased when he put out something. Gary has talked about it, and even had someone working on one for a time. And OOTP is about to put one out. Looking at Francis' blog, it's clear he's someone who "gets" text simming, and he's willing to take on the hundred-ton elephant of true 2D in a football sim. His take will be very different from mine and we'll probably both benefit from each other.

[sjshaw]

.
That said, the graphics in the game need to be updated and modernized more (even after latest update) and the website needs to be updated to an influx of new customers. Steam reaches a very large diverse audience and dated graphics may a non-starter for many people.

Agreed 100%, especially about the website and the OP's message board suggestion.

Also, some targeted advertising at the top college football message boards (Rivals, 247) and NFL sites (entertainment-based and stathead-based) would probably generate a positive ROI. But not if the website and game presentation isn't updated. The web is too big now and people have expectations. If they see anything that looks "old" and isn't being ironic about it... *click "close tab"*

[mckerney]

I dont know the cost of getting a game into Steam or GOG, but if its feasible, I think the impact of the wide audience would greatly benefit the game even if you went to a cheaper price point.

GOG or Humble Store might be good options even if FOF A were also on Steam, but DRM free is required on GOG and not necessary but I believe encouraged on Humble, which would be a change from what Jim has done in the past.

[Solecismic]

Let's assume more new graphics aren't an option (reasons being I don't want to sacrifice screen space, too much time and a full makeover would cost a lot of money because I'm not an artist). Is Greenlight still worth pursuing?

[mckerney]

Let's assume more new graphics aren't an option (reasons being I don't want to sacrifice screen space, too much time and a full makeover would cost a lot of money because I'm not an artist). Is Greenlight still worth pursuing?

I think it would be worth it, but not if you're going to be lazy with PR on it. I don't think you can rely on just throwing up a page on Greenlight and getting enough attention to get through without doing anything else for it.

[mckerney]

As far as resources about trying to get through Greenlight, Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/)is where you'll find some of the best info.

Gamasutra: Szymon Bryla's Blog - The 43-Day Siege – breaking stereotypes on Steam Greenlight (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/SzymonBryla/20140207/210269/The_43Day_Siege__breaking_stereotypes_on_Steam_Greenlight.php)

Gamasutra - Revisiting Greenlight (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/203994/revisiting_greenlight.php)

Gamasutra: Colin Walsh's Blog - Steam Greenlight: What To Expect (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ColinWalsh/20130724/196909/Steam_Greenlight_What_To_Expect.php)



YouTube Let's Plays are one of the bigger things you'll see mentioned, though unfortunately text sports sims don't really lend themselves too well to that format.

[Solecismic]

Those links bring up an interesting "pro" - the Greenlight process itself could be a very valuable mechanism for getting people to try the free demo.

Yeah, though, no matter what I promise, I can guarantee I'm far more interested in developing games than PR. If I had to choose between developing something new or spending my work time on PR, it's an easy choice. I'd rather go back to work in the real world than wear the PR hat full time. Which seems strange to me, because I genuinely like writing.

It sounds like I'll need to hire someone to run the PR campaign if I'm going this route.

[nilodor]

Let's assume more new graphics aren't an option (reasons being I don't want to sacrifice screen space, too much time and a full makeover would cost a lot of money because I'm not an artist). Is Greenlight still worth pursuing?

I think it is, and I think the graphics updates that were done are enough to bring the game away from looking too much like excel. I think the game is now at the minimum level for graphics. The one thing to consider would be to make it easier for people to use custom graphics, custom helmets, etc. It's a huge component of the immersion of most text sims and I think the text sim community is very good at supporting this stuff if it's easy enough to do.

[MizzouRah]

I say, go for it!

[stevew]

Let's say I never heard of FOF but I had Steam. I search for "Football Game" cause maybe I hate madden but want to see if there's something else.

I get a bunch of results, but basically all of them are soccer management games. I shift to "American Football Game." I see 3 responses, Blood Bowl, Gridiron Solitare, and DungeonBall. I think maybe you'd get some looks here because of the lack of available titles..

Say I search for "Sports management game"-There's only 18 games there. I see Football Manager, I'm stoked til I realize that's a soccer game. I think maybe this plants the idea though that there "might" be an american football game and if you appear in this search string you will probably at least get some looks.

I know you hate PR but I'd do the green light thing. If you don't wanna do that maybe you could work on some SEO stuff.

[MartinD]

Going off at a bit of a tangent...

Is there any value in making an older version of FOF available through GOG? An alternative (particularly if there are any plans for TCY2) might be to put the original TCY on GOG... (Other game-selling websites are available, of course, but GOG seems the most appropriate fit for this.)

While the potential return on this would obviously be lower than getting FOF7 onto Steam, it would (probably) involve a lot less work and would put FOF/TCY in front of a wider audience.

[Antmeister]

I hope it doesn't work that way. I'm sure Football Mogul has outsold FOF by 10-to-1, because Clay has put together a better sales network and even gets his games into Wal-Mart. When I first started work on FOF, before I even talked about it on Usenet, Clay announced Football Mogul. I was terrified because he had this great product out there already and I thought no one would even look at my work as long as there was an alternative. But it worked out well. It turns out they are very different products and appeal to different customers. There's even significant crossover.

I've always operated under the assumption that competition builds sales for the entire genre, and people who are interested in a genre try different products and have different favorites at different times.

So competition works - Arlie has a couple of football games out there, and my sales always increased when he put out something. Gary has talked about it, and even had someone working on one for a time. And OOTP is about to put one out. Looking at Francis' blog, it's clear he's someone who "gets" text simming, and he's willing to take on the hundred-ton elephant of true 2D in a football sim. His take will be very different from mine and we'll probably both benefit from each other.

Okay didn't mean it as a true con. What I mean is that whenever anyone discusses any game at Steam, they often like to compare to the first game of its type available on Steam and generally like to weigh the pros and cons of another game against this. What I am just stating is that if yours is the first of its type there, people will compare all the ones following against this, pros and cons. So it will be used as a barometer against other football text sims. And being the first means more people are likely to give it a chance.

[garion333]

I'm still all for getting on Steam.

As far as the process, I followed Bill Harris' development from the beginning and was a part of the beta process (my name is in the credits, woot!). He never expected to get into Steam and he did, so I think you could too, especially with a prexisting game series.

You should check out Bill's blog and see all he went through. I believe this post is most apropos of getting on Steam: Dubious Quality: Gridiron Solitaire #89: A Deep Breath (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2014/01/gridiron-solitaire-89-deep-breath.html?m=1)

[NawlinsFan]

I think Steam/Geenlight is the right step now to introduce your product to a much larger community. As you have already noted it will at least allow access to the demo which will no doubt translate into sales, how many.... ????

One thing for certain, Jim has admitted he is not a PR guy. Going on Steam will allow a ton more feedback and if anyone has followed the forums for the games it is not all positive. So I would think that Jim may have to rely on a couple of the FOF faithful that he relies upon to assist him in answering or discussing the game with the community.

The graphics have improved dramatically but I will admit, being old, that not all of the changes will appeal to everyone. Still if the community understands that there are a few things they can mod it may help.

One thing I personally think would help a lot, especially since it is much more an MP game than an SP (IMO) would be to enhance the pre-designed league screens that would display the depth and range of stats and data in a manner similar to what someone has already done for a few leagues under 2007. Granted exporting a csv file allows a lot of flexibility but for leagues that don't have anyone with enough experience or time to develop them it would add to the feature list.

[Solecismic]

In terms of the game looking dated, is that something that would be remedied by replacing existing graphics (presumably not the new contest-winning ones), or is it simply the structure of the game itself.

I look at "apps" in Windows, and they force full screen on you, which is something that drove me crazy back in the Windows '95 days - seemed to me that windowing was the big game-changer over DOS. I'm just wondering if this is a matter of simply replacing some really horrible stuff, like my default city logos. Or if it's out of my reach because it's the windowing itself.

I wish I saw it myself. Maybe that's a sign of age. I like simple, plain graphics. Animation makes me want to strike someone. A sound track makes me reach for the mute button.

[antdroid]

In terms of the game looking dated, is that something that would be remedied by replacing existing graphics (presumably not the new contest-winning ones), or is it simply the structure of the game itself.


Graphics are probably the biggest and also the easiest thing I'd think that would need to be replaced. You dont need fancy animations or any of that business, but just the fact that the game is 100x more attractive with the graphics update is a great great start.

I think just taking some visual cues from the two leading sports sims - Football Manager and OOTP -- would go a long way. (they've also taken those same visual styles into mobile platforms with great success) FOF is actually pretty close to being there, now, I think, especially with the user generated graphic mods.

The separate window menus were actually quite a turn-off for me initially, being someone who just recently got the game a month ago. I had tried the demo and saw the whole windows thing and just a screen of hyperlinks and text and it really threw me off course. I then tried PFS and found that interface much more enjoyable (at first) however I felt something was missing and went back to try this demo out again and then just really grew to love it and ended up buying this product, so maybe I'm not so shallow. :)

If you wanted to modernize it a little more, then having a walkthrough tutorial of the first season with more guidance may help alleviate the learning curve for a new person to sports text-based simulations.

I hope you take this all as constructive criticism and nothing more than that. You've obviously developed a great game, which others, like me, have searched out to find and found it here in a great balanced american football sim.

[nilodor]

If you wanted to modernize it a little more, then having a walkthrough tutorial of the first season with more guidance may help alleviate the learning curve for a new person to sports text-based simulations.



This. I have a couple of friends who are huge football nerds but they never got into the game because the learning curve upfront is pretty steep. I think a first year tutorial would be a great idea and would help alleviate the overwhelmingness of the main screen.

I also think it would be a shame if the game didn't make it to a wider audience through steam or something similar because Football Mogul can't be what people think of when they think of football text sims.

[Dutch]

You can stick to your guns and your beliefs and still sell FOF on steam. People still crave the stats of FOF vs graphics. You can always modernize the look without fancy FOF2k1 graphics....which I thought wasnt the best look for your style.

[Fonzie]

Graphics are probably the biggest and also the easiest thing I'd think that would need to be replaced. You dont need fancy animations or any of that business, but just the fact that the game is 100x more attractive with the graphics update is a great great start.

I think just taking some visual cues from the two leading sports sims - Football Manager and OOTP -- would go a long way. (they've also taken those same visual styles into mobile platforms with great success) FOF is actually pretty close to being there, now, I think, especially with the user generated graphic mods.

The separate window menus were actually quite a turn-off for me initially, being someone who just recently got the game a month ago. I had tried the demo and saw the whole windows thing and just a screen of hyperlinks and text and it really threw me off course. I then tried PFS and found that interface much more enjoyable (at first) however I felt something was missing and went back to try this demo out again and then just really grew to love it and ended up buying this product, so maybe I'm not so shallow. :)

If you wanted to modernize it a little more, then having a walkthrough tutorial of the first season with more guidance may help alleviate the learning curve for a new person to sports text-based simulations.

I hope you take this all as constructive criticism and nothing more than that. You've obviously developed a great game, which others, like me, have searched out to find and found it here in a great balanced american football sim.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on how to improve the game for either the next version or a Greenlight attempt. I think the issue with the game appearing dated is certainly in part due to the graphics, but for me much of this perception is generated by the user interface. Compared to other modern games FOF7 just isn't easy or straightforward to navigate (for me, anyway).

Up above it was suggested that an official FOF forum be created, and I think that's a good idea. It might also be worthwhile to consider creating a subreddit - I see some smaller games that have a fairly active user base there.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do, Jim. I'll be pulling for you!

[Dutch]

When I hear "Graphics", I think a modern look to the interface...and that's fine and dandy. But the biggest appeal to me is seeing all the stats and numbers in generic 8pt Arial font. It's the cleanest looking interface for a text-based system ever (whether that was on purpose or by accident or by Microsoft design or whatever is irrelevant)...but it's hooked me because of the lack of distractions.

All the goofy graphics that Jim has used over the years hasn't phased me one bit because they haven't affected the actual game play...which are those basic, fundamental "spreadsheets" with 8pt Arial font. That part of the interface was right since the very beginning and shouldn't be messed with too much.

[Solecismic]

I was hoping people would embrace a different font for the future. Oh, well.

But, yes, I'm glad Arial is appreciated. When I started out, it was so much better than the default. There are other good families out there that you'll find on most computers, but Arial in the 8pt size is still as good as anything.

[Solecismic]

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on how to improve the game for either the next version or a Greenlight attempt. I think the issue with the game appearing dated is certainly in part due to the graphics, but for me much of this perception is generated by the user interface. Compared to other modern games FOF7 just isn't easy or straightforward to navigate (for me, anyway).

Up above it was suggested that an official FOF forum be created, and I think that's a good idea. It might also be worthwhile to consider creating a subreddit - I see some smaller games that have a fairly active user base there.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do, Jim. I'll be pulling for you!

Thanks. Reddit is something I've heard a lot about lately. I've never ventured in before. What would that offer in addition to FOFC, which I think is really solid as a place for people to learn about the game.

I'm interested in specific navigation ideas. I like the link menus because they reduce the number of clicks. But maybe they would be less useful if I switched from Modal to non-Modal (like I did with the UADTR card game).

[gstelmack]

...saw the whole windows thing and just a screen of hyperlinks and text and it really threw me off course.

I think this would be the area to focus on. Newcomers just have no idea what to do, and have to start randomly clicking (after they figure out to click the buttons at top to open the windows in the first place).

The calendar is a start to fixing this, but I'd get rid of much of the top tool bar (new, save, load are fine there) and replace it with buttons on the right side of the calendar for:

- Offseason actions
- Adjust Roster
- Set depthchart
- Set gameplan
- Sim games
- View Statistics
- View League Information

Each of these then opens windows similar to the existing, except that I would move around a few options to fit the actions the player wants to do. Offseason actions includes ticket prices, staff hiring, and maybe the draft. But right now you spend a while figuring out where everything is, and this would streamline the process without taking power away.

The other thing I would fix (:deadhorse: I fully admit) is do away with the modal dialogs. Why can't I have the depth chart, roster window, and a player card all open at the same time and navigable? Maybe even statistics? Taking a UI that is based on giving the player lots of info, and only letting them look at one piece at a time, is contradictory. Heck, in this day-and-age of 1920 pixel wide screens, why do I have such a narrow roster view with buttons to change the view, instead of one wide one with all the info available?

You've already taken a step to clean up the graphics, and the game looks worlds better for it. Fixing some of these usability issues will lower the barrier to entry for the game, and give it a more "modern" UI feel without completely throwing away your approach for presenting the information.

As to the original question, my answer is simple: if you aren't happy with current sales and want more, Steam is the only real answer out there. If you aren't on Steam, you have niche availability on the PC, period. If you don't want the hassle of Steam, then you need to be happy with sales figures as they are.

[gstelmack]

I'm interested in specific navigation ideas. I like the link menus because they reduce the number of clicks. But maybe they would be less useful if I switched from Modal to non-Modal (like I did with the UADTR card game).

Cross-posted :D

[Dutch]

I was hoping people would embrace a different font for the future. Oh, well.

Typically I'm against change, but when I saw the digital alarm clock font the Bucs chose...

...

...typically I'm against change.

But, yes, I'm glad Arial is appreciated. When I started out, it was so much better than the default. There are other good families out there that you'll find on most computers, but Arial in the 8pt size is still as good as anything.

Yup.

[Dutch]

As to the original question, my answer is simple: if you aren't happy with current sales and want more, Steam is the only real answer out there. If you aren't on Steam, you have niche availability on the PC, period. If you don't want the hassle of Steam, then you need to be happy with sales figures as they are.

Yes, and the relationship with Steam would allow you to still be autonomous from Steam. So if the relationship ever soured, you could remove yourself from the equation with a lot less hassle than say....EA and ownership rights and stuff like that (assuming that may have been an issue back in the FOF2 days)

[Solecismic]

So, assuming that I try Greenlight, the video is critical, right? So what should it contain?

How long? Is 4-6 minutes about right?

How much "this is the history of Front Office Football?" Is that too much like showing off baby pictures?

How much talking about the game as opposed to specific function?

[Marmel]

I'm not sure if I have watched more than 3 Steam videos all time. I rely on the screen shots and the written description/features of the game, FWIW.
I would just pull up a few similar text style games and see what they did for videos and screen shots.
If steam doesn't work, the only other way to increase sales these days is to partner up with one of the other text sim companies: The FM guys, OOTP, Grey dog, etc...

[DaddyTorgo]

Those links bring up an interesting "pro" - the Greenlight process itself could be a very valuable mechanism for getting people to try the free demo.

Yeah, though, no matter what I promise, I can guarantee I'm far more interested in developing games than PR. If I had to choose between developing something new or spending my work time on PR, it's an easy choice. I'd rather go back to work in the real world than wear the PR hat full time. Which seems strange to me, because I genuinely like writing.

It sounds like I'll need to hire someone to run the PR campaign if I'm going this route.

Don't neglect this community when looking for help with the PR campaign. You have a lot of goodwill and passionate supporters in this community who might be willing to lend a hand for minimal compensation.

[stevew]

Some basic gameplay videos could help sell the game I'd think. Like a simple "drafting a franchise QB" one. Even if it was some sort of power point with narration. Something a person could show to someone else to better explain how the game works.

For example
Slide 1-breakdown of previous season bullet points on bad QB play
Slide 2-explanation of reveal of draft class.
Slide 3-break down 2-3 QBs to consider for #1 pick
Slide 4-show other #1pick options
Slide 5-reveal pick and revisit him after camp changes
Slide 6-revisit players after 5 years
Slide 7- revisit players after career ends and summarize what went right/wrong.

Aka tell the story of the 2015 draft as concisely as possible but provide enough of a look into the gameplay for an on the fence user.

[Solecismic]

I'm not sure if I have watched more than 3 Steam videos all time. I rely on the screen shots and the written description/features of the game, FWIW.
I would just pull up a few similar text style games and see what they did for videos and screen shots.
If steam doesn't work, the only other way to increase sales these days is to partner up with one of the other text sim companies: The FM guys, OOTP, Grey dog, etc...

I've been begging Marc for years to take me on. He's always very helpful, but he's far too smart to make any offers.

[antdroid]

I think making a really impactful, fun, trailer would be a great idea, but my personal preference is to limit it to just 1-2 minutes tops. Anything more than that would bore me unless especially since this isn't a story-based 3D graphic game. I think having a series of videos on different aspects of the game would be more useful than one long one.

i also tend to rely on screenshots a lot too for the same reasons mentioned above. playthroughs can be really long and boring to me.

I like steve's suggestion of making a story out of a player as an example of one. Would add a little more personal and compelling flair to the game.

Another might be outlying finding a diamond in the rough undrafted free agent and seeing his career build. Another would be emphasizing how realistic the game is compared to real life, etc. etc.

[Marmel]

I've been begging Marc for years to take me on. He's always very helpful, but he's far too smart to make any offers.

That would be a dream scenario! I love the way FM looks and works, but I just don't get soccer.

[Julio Riddols]

I echo the opinion that text and screen shots matter more than a video. When I want to learn something about something, I generally prefer to read about it and see images of it rather than watch a video. An example of this is when I go to view a news article on a site and get linked to a video. I usually just close the tab rather than watching the video.

I say put up a copious amount of screen shots and explanation of what is being shown. In the summary of the game, sum it up as an accurate and balanced GM simulation with multiplayer and an error free finished product rather than a yet to be finished beta. For the armchair GM who wishes they could take the reins of their own professional franchise, this is still the only game on the block really worth its salt, IMO.

The hunt for a franchise QB thing would make a great imgur photoset.

[NawlinsFan]

*

[Shaun Sullivan]

I'm following this with keen interest.

One suggestion I have would be to reach out to Bill Harris, fellow text-sim nerd and recent developer of a game that was green-lit on Steam. He might have some good insights.

Whatever path you choose, I with you the best.

Shaun

[Solecismic]

Thanks, Shaun. I'm giving this a try.

The Greenlight pages say that advertising is strictly forbidden. My intro video talks about there being a free demo of FOF7 available on my web site, as well as the fact that the game is finished and on sale.

Does that constitute advertising? Does anyone remember how OOTP handled that?

[antdroid]

Here's the link to the Franchise Hockey Manager greenlight page which is from OOTP: Steam Greenlight :: Franchise Hockey Manager (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=187796545)

Their video on there looks like walkthrough but they have a link to purchase the game on their own website.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Here's the link to the Franchise Hockey Manager greenlight page which is from OOTP: Steam Greenlight :: Franchise Hockey Manager (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=187796545)

Their video on there looks like walkthrough but they have a link to purchase the game on their own website.

Thats right and as far as I know we never got any complains from Steam for that. So you should be save to mention it in my opinion.

[mckerney]

Twitter / SteamDB: Valve also added the possibility ... (https://twitter.com/SteamDB/status/443890995219152898)

http://i.imgur.com/pc8u3X8.jpg

Steam has added option to report games on their store page, could be a sign their progressing in plan to eliminate greenlight and allow developers to use the store without prior approval from Valve.

[DaddyTorgo]

How's the Greenlight campaign going?

[Solecismic]

Hard to say. They Greenlit another 75 titles today, so the stats I'm seeing have changed a bit.

I'm at about 650 votes in six days. If I continued at 100/day, I'd make it easily. But that's not a realistic expectation. I figure I need at least 2,000 votes to be considered. The good thing is there's no time limit for this process.

I really appreciate the nice things people have been saying about the game on Greenlight. I didn't expect that at all. Sometimes I only see the negative posts here, and it's kind of scary going out into the bigger world.

That said, I hope more people can vote. On my end, I'm doing my best to get the game out in front of more reviewers, looking for places where indie developers talk about their games. If people here could talk to their friends and get them to vote, I'd be very grateful.

[Julio Riddols]

I'll see what I can do.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Just catching up on this discussion, and I just voted for the game on Steam. Good luck!

Coming from the perspective of someone who has kids and a full-time job, I can't say enough how much I've come to appreciate games that are on Steam. I balk at buying non-Steam games, mainly due to ease-of-use factors and partly due to lower prices.

It seems to me that the Greenlight element of Steam has made it more feasible and accepted for niche/Indie developers to publish on the platform. There also seems to be a greater acceptance of niche games on the platform from the gamer perspective. That just might be my skewed viewpoint, but there are more and more examples of nice developers moving their games to Steam. For example, Slitherine is starting to move their Matrix titles to Steam. There are more simulation/sports management titles on the platform now than there were previously.

I didn't see it mentioned in the discussion, but if FOF7 does get greenlit, I'd recommend exploring the benefits of adding Steam Trading Cards and Steam Achievements. I don't know the details of how they work on Steam from a publisher perspective, but I think they're worthwhile for two reasons. Many gamers are badge/achievement gamers, and those features influence buying decisions.

Not having Steam Trading Cards and Achievements gives me the impression that the game is old and/or not supported currently. Having both of these gives me the impression that the developer is all in with their Steam deployment. If I were to pick one of the two, I'd say Achievements are the more important feature.

[Dutch]

I've seen the badges and cards on Steam, but I have no idea what this even means. "Many gamers are badge/achievement gamers"

[Godzilla Blitz]

I've seen the badges and cards on Steam, but I have no idea what this even means. "Many gamers are badge/achievement gamers"

The badges/cards are an odd feature.

Basically, a game can have a card set with it, consisting of a half dozen or more unique cards. As you first play a game with cards available, cards will drop to your account at a rate of about one per hour, up to half or one more than half of the total number of cards in the set.

Once all your drops have come for a particular game, you're eligible for a random chance to have another few cards drop to your account at some point in the future. You can also trade for missing cards in a set, or buy them on the marketplace. Most of them are about a dime or so each, but there are also rare foil cards that can be worth more.

Once you get all the cards in a set, you can craft a badge for that particular game. The badge gives you some random things: 100 Steam experience points, sometimes some in-game items for other games, a discount coupon, a background for your profile, and some emoticon you can use in chat. As you gain experience, you advance in Steam levels. Steam levels give you mostly useless features, like the ability to customize your profile more at Level 10, or have more friends on your Steam account.

Badges also have levels, so you can have a few levels of badges for a particular game.

I got caught up in it for about a day or so, then couldn't figure out why I cared about it. About the only think I'll do is pick up the extra cards for games I finish and like, as a way to mark a game complete. If you don't care at all about the cards, you can sell them on the marketplace and use that money on your Steam account to buy games.

There are gamers who enjoy them quite a bit. Maybe it appeals to their collection impulses.

[DerekGameDev]

I voted for the game on Steam too. I'd love to see it get greenlighted! On Steam...its a crapshoot really. The audience on Steam varies a lot, so it'll depend on if the message reaches enough people who want to see a good text-based sim made.

[Germanicus]

Voted and asked friends to do the same. For Steam users this takes a matter of seconds.

That aside, I noticed there were concerns about pricing in this thread and a lot of people have already given feedback on it, but I recalled some articles I had read regarding steam pricing and sales.

Valve's Gabe Newell Interview (http://www.geekwire.com/2011/experiments-video-game-economics-valves-gabe-newell/)

This a bit old, but the experience is consistent with my own, and my PC gaming friends, all of whom make the vast majority of game purchases via Steam.

Basically the per unit pricing goes down significantly, but sales go up exponentially. Anecdotally, for me, There comes a point where the perceived value of the game matches up with the discount, and I am willing to buy something I "might want to play at some point." These are titles I would never really consider buying, but seem to be quality games. In a sense, I make the value pick.

This is reflected in Ars Technica's recent "Steam Guage" that launched here which shows us many people are buying games that they do not play, or play very little. Ars Technica Steam Guauge (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/)

Anyway... in case you missed these, I hope they are of some help. Have been playing FOF since the inaugural edition on and off, and very much hope FoF7 can jump into some mainstream success - the Football Sim genre needs it.

[Solecismic]

The campaign continues, though it's continuing slowly. We reached 1,000 yes votes tonight. I still think it needs about 2,000 for serious consideration, though Valve has not published their criteria.

Yes, the current price point would not work for Steam. Probably $10 lower, but with occasional sales at $16.95 - $19.95. I have to keep the price higher on my own because I just don't get as many people looking at the game.

I don't have any idea if it will make it to Steam. I really appreciate those who have voted and taken the time to comment. I haven't given up. I just have to figure out what to do if it doesn't make it.

[Julio Riddols]

The best thing that could happen is a complete reimagining of the interface. Keep the functionality, but completely rethink how and where to display things. I think a good revision would probably remove as many clicks as it adds, but the ideal result would be a better looking, simpler, easier to follow interface that would appeal to those new to football text sims.

There are things like the Grey Sheet/Green Page/QB Coterie that could be made into a much more prevalent feature in the game by just spicing them up a bit and making them easier to find.

One idea I think would be a great addition would be to make the calendar dynamic. When it is Staff Retention time, The calendar could change to a highlighted list of relevant links to things of interest for that stage in the game: Coach records, team rankings, last seasons power rankings, what have you. During Free Agency the Grey Sheet could be featured, along with the draft report and other necessary stuff.

This puts all the pertinent stuff (and maybe some things players rarely see) right there in broad daylight for the new user. They're no longer staring at a page of almost 100 text links trying to figure out what is where. I think that alone would take that entry barrier for new and on-the-fence players from about 20 feet high to about chest level, figuratively speaking.

[MarBaSxx]

That soccer sim game is one of the most popular games on steam. I think FoF can do well here. I have been sitting around wishing there was a good stat simulator for NFL football for years. Hopefully this can get done

[DaddyTorgo]

I think you actually have to blast out there that you're on Greenlight. You know there were some reviews of FOF done - why not reach out to the reviewers and let them know you're on Greenlight now and have them pimp it to their readers with an "Updated Review" that covers that and the graphical revamp say?

Need some publicity on it to drive eyeballs there to get it Greenlit faster.

[Solecismic]

Following up... FHM made Steam today. So that's encouraging, in that Steam is looking at text sims in a world that seems to be nothing but first-person shooters at times.

FOF doesn't have the votes. It can sit on Greenlight indefinitely, and the numbers will trickle upward, a few a day. I don't know their criteria.

I would like to continue writing games. That won't happen unless I can make some changes that will lead to a product that would have no problem reaching Steam. Obviously, I can't keep focusing only on game play. That has resulted in a game that has fallen far behind in look and feel. What was a decent interface ten years ago is tedious and hard to learn today. I can spend months working on under the hood stuff - FOF7 is by far the biggest "update" I've ever made. But a good percentage of existing customers won't upgrade because it's in areas that were already working well enough. A big part of that is the look and feel.

Marketing is becoming the elephant in the room. It costs a lot to market through advertising - too much to make advertising practical. I never got much return from ads in the past. My marketing effort was always focused on getting the game in the hands of reviewers. Making it onto Computer Gaming World's top 100 list back in 1998 was huge. That led to the EA Sports relationship and a lot of attention. I could write any reviewer and he'd publish something. It's a different world. I can barely rate an auto-reply from 1UP (essentially where CGW is today). I wrote more than a dozen reviewers about FOF7 and got one review out of it. Even the Football Outsiders relationship - which is essentially mention on their web site in return for the placement within FOF7 - it took months to get that mention this time, and because their reviewer hated the look and feel so much it was a review I don't feel comfortable even linking.

In other words, continuing the way I'm headed is leading to the slow death of FOF. Steam would change that - give the community the infusion of new players - give me the infusion of cash I need to update the look and feel. But I need marketing even to get the votes I need to get on Steam.

Interesting dilemma. I'm throwing a lot of ideas around lately.

[digamma]

Jim,
Have you looked into newer methods of marketing? Some of the facebook and/or google (or even twitter) auction based pricing can be very affordable for small businesses and generate a fairly targeted message. A couple of friends with small businesses have had particular success with facebook ads.

Just a thought.

[Dutch]

Well, I think you've nailed it Jim. The UI experience can't be a distractor. It's a balancing act and that's serious (and professional) business these days.

I know you are driven by the game mechanics and engine first and foremost, but I'll bet if you didn't touch those things one bit, and hired a UI team to help revamp the look & feel that FOF (let's call it v7.5) could generate revenue. Remember, Beats By Dre is a 3.2B company...and they did nothing to revolutionize headphones....they just made them prettier. :)

[Solecismic]

One idea my wife and I have been discussing is finding a local recent grad in marketing who is passionate about football and enjoys FOF and giving him a small budget to work with. I was good at getting word out when the internet was more directory-based and I knew the print world very well. But marketing in the modern digital world is an entirely different animal, and people advise very different strategies.

[Pyser]

i'd think it's worth trying to hit up pro nfl reporters. pro football talk or peter king or something like that. any mention from anyone like that about "the most realistic football sim available" could help.

as an nfl fan, i'd be far more likely to see that than a random review somewhere.

[Germanicus]

To follow up on Pyser's point above, have you read Bill Barnwell over at Grantland.com and The Triangle? Contributors Bill Barnwell « (http://grantland.com/contributors/bill-barnwell/)

Similar to PFF and Football Outsiders he is heavily into analytics, but Grantland.com has a huge and more diverse readership.

[kingnebwsu]

Posting for the first time in years to say I voted for your game on Steam. Haven't bought FOF7 yet (new baby reduces my free time significantly) but I look forward to purchasing the game & reliving the glory days of the old FOF. Has it really been over 15 years? Wow...

[Germanicus]

Not sure what your stance on DRM is, but have you given GOG.com any consideration? Been growing steadily, and they seem to be much more hands on in working with developers to decide what to put out there.

[Solecismic]

If I'm going this route, it makes more sense to have access to the tens of millions who accept Steam. But seven months on Greenlight, and it's obvious I'm not what they want. So everything and anything is on the table. I've always been slow to make decisions, and I have some decisions to make.

In the meantime, I'm making another push on Steam. I tweetered or something like that about if I get 200 votes this week, I'll give FOF customers a bit of a surprise. That was worth 140 votes in the last three days, so someone is watching. Admittedly, this Twitter/Facebook stuff still mystifies me. But please vote if you haven't already.

[Solecismic]

Greenlight has approved about 300 games in the last 24 hours, but not FOF. We're only 48% of the way to the top 100 in votes, but plenty with far less votes make it. We're probably top 20 in terms of followers/favorites. Hopefully that matters, but obviously not enough or it would have gotten through last night.

This is a ridiculous process, but still I have to hope for it. There's not going to be a new game without some sort of distribution method. I appreciate all of you who have gone there and voted and commented.

[djsatu]

Jim I don't know what else you can do to be honest. You have way more votes than a bunch of games that have been approved already. The fact that some games get in with no votes or effort at all is crazy. The number of people that want your game on steam is staggering. We all want more products from you obviously, but we know how much getting on steam would help in that regard. Still holding out hope for you!

[MizzouRah]

Suck an odd process over there.

[Ben E Lou]

Very irritating.

[Julio Riddols]

I really don't understand what the hold up could possibly be. Maybe you should call FOF 7 an early access game or something.

[dubb93]

How did DDS: PB get in while completely skipping the Greenlight process? What did he do that you are not?

[PilotMan]

I think it's because he has a distribution agreement with Viva Media and they got it on there.

[Solecismic]

I've had that kind of offer, but I can't make the numbers work if I want to remain full-time. Those companies ask a lot to bypass Greenlight, and the sales they suggested were possible weren't that much higher than what I already do.

My worry is that in turning down an offer (always politely), I've offended someone with solid connections at Valve.

[PilotMan]

This is a ridiculous process, but still I have to hope for it. There's not going to be a new game without some sort of distribution method. I appreciate all of you who have gone there and voted and commented.

I have hope for it too. All I can say is maybe it's time to explore some other video options. I mean, that's got to be part of the sales pitch too. Either through a let's play or perhaps a more straightforward sales pitch.

Maybe it's not enough to just show the game, but instead appeal to the nature of what we like in a game. Hell if Choice of Games can get what amount to great "Choose Your Own Adventure" games, with no graphics and no sound on you can too.

We like all the same things in a game as we do in a story. Create the narrative and make people want to get it.

Another thought is that maybe the price point that you are setting for your own distribution is just not compatible with Steam. I know you have stated that you need it there, but I think Steam sale stats would prove that starting at $20 and going from there might get you 4X the reach that you otherwise would if not more. Do what you want, but it's just a thought.

We are still supporting you in the FOFC Steam group, that's for sure.

[MizzouRah]

Just doesn't make sense to me.. but I don't know about the Steam process. Heck, Bill's football card game was greenlit.

[djsatu]

How did DDS: PB get in while completely skipping the Greenlight process? What did he do that you are not?

The game is unplayable and the demo was horrible for me anyways.

[Dutch]

I've had that kind of offer, but I can't make the numbers work if I want to remain full-time. Those companies ask a lot to bypass Greenlight, and the sales they suggested were possible weren't that much higher than what I already do.

My worry is that in turning down an offer (always politely), I've offended someone with solid connections at Valve.

Jim,

The beautiful part of America isn't that it's always easy to accomplish things, but that nothing is monopolized to the point where you can't find other ways.

Have you considered Amazon Digital?
https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/platforms/mac-pc

[nicon22]

Dont give up, I'm sure it'll go up soon...Have you thought about GoG? If i had a 2nd place besides steam I dont mind supporting for digital games, its them.

Info:
http://www.gog.com/indie

[Solecismic]

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

[Ben E Lou]

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.:party:

[nicon22]

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

Gratz man, have my money ready as soon as its up to be able to buy.

[chinaski]

Congrats!

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Boom!! Congrats Jim, you've earned it. Now all we need is an update to TCY..

[DaddyTorgo]

Great news!

[corbes]

Wonderful, wonderful news

[JPhillips]

Congrats!

[Dutch]

Yeah! Thank goodness.

[Senator]

Alright!!!

[Tasan]

Credit card at the ready!

[AlexB]

Fair play! Congratulations, and hope this provides you with the rewards you deserve.

[Pyser]

yes!

[Marmel]

Great news. Steam today, TCY tomorrow! :lol:

[stevew]

If you could do some sort of activation exchange or something it would be great(or even a coupon). If not, I'll probably buy it again anyways.

[stevew]

Congrats are due, good job BTW.

[PilotMan]

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

Great news Jim! We are so excited for you. Congrats!

[Flasch186]

Congrats!

[jaygr]

Congrats, Jim. Much success to you.

[MizzouRah]

Woot Woot!

[vex]

If you could do some sort of activation exchange or something it would be great(or even a coupon). If not, I'll probably buy it again anyways.

On Solecismic.com:

"If we're Greenlighted, those of you who already own Front Office Football Seven will have the option to trade your order ID for a Steam product ID."

[PackerFanatic]

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

Amazing news, and so well deserved. Way to go, Jim!

[PackerFanatic]

On Solecismic.com:

"If we're Greenlighted, those of you who already own Front Office Football Seven will have the option to trade your order ID for a Steam product ID."

And I really like this, BTW.

[Julio Riddols]

Oh shit yeah!

[djsatu]

Congrats on the huge news Jim!

[Ben E Lou]

This is the first Greenlight project I've followed. What's the typical time from Greenlighting to download?

[vex]

This is the first Greenlight project I've followed. What's the typical time from Greenlighting to download?

http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/faq/

My favorite game just got Greenlit. How long before it launches on Steam?

Games are submitted to Steam Greenlight in various stages of completion. Once a game has been Greenlit, Valve will reach out to the developer to determine their timeline for finishing their game and launching on Steam.


Makes it sound like it's up to Jim, but based on the time that it took to get Greenlit, I'm sure it can't be that easy.

[fpres]

Fantastic news. Congratulations!

[Dutch]

Watch out Paradox, there's gonna be a new sheriff at the top of the Hours Played list soon!

[gstelmack]

I'm about to build out a new computer, and dreading the elicense unlicensed/relicense fiasco. Can't wait until I never have to worry about that again.

[PilotMan]

Yep, that might be the best part of this whole thing.

[Alf]

Congrats Jim. A good way to beginner a new year I guess.

[NawlinsFan]

I'm about to build out a new computer, and dreading the elicense unlicensed/relicense fiasco. Can't wait until I never have to worry about that again.


:+1: AMEN!

[Laconic1]

This is my first post (newbie, of course) and I literally read every single comment in this thread. It was such a pleasant surprise to see that this game has been recently greenlit. I just purchased a license a few days ago and I'm thrilled to have finally come across a simulation that's so deep and engaging.

The developer seems like a very hardworking individual who is also honest and receptive to feedback. Those are the folks I root for!

You have my full support, Jim!

Cheers

[Dutch]

:+1: AMEN!

Without a doubt!

[garion333]

Watch out Paradox, there's gonna be a new sheriff at the top of the Hours Played list soon!

Ain't that the truth?!?

Congrats, Jim.

[aston217]

This actually happened?

Ben, I feel like we need a giant announcement / celebration thread or something on the forums to make sure everyone knows. I almost didn't click in here and usually don't.

[PilotMan]

This actually happened?

Ben, I feel like we need a giant announcement / celebration thread or something on the forums to make sure everyone knows. I almost didn't click in here and usually don't.

Ben gave up after he was scooped by Sportdigs; yet again.

[Solecismic]

This is the first Greenlight project I've followed. What's the typical time from Greenlighting to download?

The first step is figuring out what exactly I have the permission to do. Is this now a pipeline for all things FOF? Or a one-shot deal?

Given that it took 10 months to get FOF7 through, that question determines whether I get something out in the next few weeks or whether I give the game a makeover and put it out this summer.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

And yeah, that's a pretty big question that Steam ought to enlighten you about, I'd say.

[QuikSand]

Late to the show, but I'm so glad to hear the great news. I'm hoping we see a whole new wave of FOFers.

Ummm....hmmm...I think I'm hoping for that.

[Solecismic]

Dola:

And yeah, that's a pretty big question that Steam ought to enlighten you about, I'd say.

It's like Google Play in that there's a lot of verbiage to indicate that direct contact with developers is quite unwelcome.

It would be nice to have some sort of mentoring. I could use advice from people who know this business far better than I do.

[MizzouRah]

It's like Google Play in that there's a lot of verbiage to indicate that direct contact with developers is quite unwelcome.

It would be nice to have some sort of mentoring. I could use advice from people who know this business far better than I do.

Do you know Bill Harris of Dubious Quality blog?

Dubious Quality (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/)

I know he mentions FOF when a new update comes out and his football card game was greenlighted awhile ago, so he probably is a good person to reach out to.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

The first step is figuring out what exactly I have the permission to do. Is this now a pipeline for all things FOF? Or a one-shot deal?

Given that it took 10 months to get FOF7 through, that question determines whether I get something out in the next few weeks or whether I give the game a makeover and put it out this summer.

Every game needs it's own id from them. With FHM version 1 on Steam we asked for an ID for version 2 and got it after some time.

Hope this helps (and congratulations for getting into Steam!).

[garion333]

Do you know Bill Harris of Dubious Quality blog?

Dubious Quality (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/)

I know he mentions FOF when a new update comes out and his football card game was greenlighted awhile ago, so he probably is a good person to reach out to.

Dubious Quality: Gridiron Solitaire #89: A Deep Breath (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2014/01/gridiron-solitaire-89-deep-breath.html)

He got the game to go up rather quickly, but had some help.

[Solecismic]

Bill has been a great help getting the word out.

Every game needs it's own id from them. With FHM version 1 on Steam we asked for an ID for version 2 and got it after some time.

Hope this helps (and congratulations for getting into Steam!).

Thanks, Sebastian. How did you make that request, and how long did it take? Is there someone at Valve I should establish some sort of planning relationship with?

[stevew]

Elicense got back to me in less than a day. Pretty good response time. EMailed at 3am, fixed by 2pm.

[Neon_Chaos]

I was perusing through steam and saw that this was greenlit.

Steam Greenlight :: Front Office Football Seven (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=237225561)

We really need a big announcement on the Off Topic Forum. :)

[stevew]

Steam Version and Super Bowl Sale

Front Office Football received the Steam Greenlight from Valve early in January and will be released on Steam the first week of February.

We are still working on a plan for qualifying customers to trade a ViaTech Front Office Footbal Seven order ID for a Steam order ID, if they choose to do so (advantages to either system).

Our price on Steam will be $24.99. We will lower the ViaTech price to $24.99 beginning on Super Sunday. Thanks for your support in helping us through the Greenlight process.

[stevew]

congrats!

[Ben E Lou]

Thanks, Steve. Now *this* (with actual imminent actionable information) is getting the "announcement" treatment. New thread started. Closing this one. Congrats again, Jim!

FOF7 Steam Release And Super Bowl Sale Imminent - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=89853)