Public Education and Race

[AENeuman]

This topic was brought up in the Obama thread but I didn't want to tread jack it. Besides I'm very interested and involved in this topic and would love to hear some opinions on it. Here is the background quotes and then my reply.


The elephant in the room is that a successful classroom comes down to how well the students respond to an upper-middle class, mostly white socialization process. Failure to accept and recognize this just means we are going to keep spinning our wheels. However, who wants to go to a parent and say your 0-5 year old needs to be nurtured and brought up in a more white way?

It's frustrating that it's presented or perceived in that manner.

I don't know what "white" means in this context. As a "white" person of a presumed stereotype, I worry that I'm not allowed to be an individual or advocate for any kind of culture. I'm just lumped in with a faceless mass of privilege. This is, obviously, the liberal white guilt many of us experience. Certainly, I have my share of it.

If that's the worst thing that happens to me, yeah, poor baby.

I can't, obviously, speak for black people (or even for white people, I hope), but my immediate reaction to this is that these perceptions do far more harm than good. We're damning black children with lowered expectations by saying it's a "white" school system they're entering.

I like the idea of a vast melting pot that can't help but absorb pieces of every culture it welcomes. We keep our individuality but we reap the rewards of everyone's strengths.

I don't know how you go to parents of black children and tell them that these are things they can do to prepare the kids for the challenges they will face. If you present this as a "white" world they need to enter, of course they will resent it.

Any ideas?

I agree that using "white" as a descriptor is problematic. But, I'm not sure how to address the issue when, for example, all other things being equal (income, neighborhood, family) a black student does worse on tests than a white student. Why?

I think the behaviors and knowledge that is required in education is, more or less, what needs to be taught in order to successfully navigate our capitalist culture. However, I think we need a dialogue on recognizing that the failure of public education is due in large part to the inability to "appropriately" socialize a large group of our population (that group obviously varies, where I teach the largely unsuccessful group is Hispanics). What compounds the problem is our inadequate response to the environments where acting "anti-(classroom) social" is encouraged and even essential. It is here where I think solving this with more money in the classroom is mostly wasted.

I very much like what Jeffery Canada is doing with his Harlem Children's Zone, particularly his Baby College for parents. He believes that in order to thrive in a middle class and above environment, a child by 5 needs to have self-control, be able to delay gratification and exhibit some sort of resilience. I think the race issue comes in believing that these behaviors are inherently correct and any other way of being is a deviation from this "normal".

Another way of bringing it out in the open would be to explore some of the the motivations behind private schools. In essence, a private school gives parents the opportunity to put their child in a homogenous classroom, one with shared behaviors and expectations. Should public classrooms be more explicitly divided into socialized and un-socialized? How many parents would prefer to have their culturally bright student in a classroom surrounded by other similarly socialized students? Thus, keeping the un-socialized in separate but equal classrooms?

[Izulde]

. Should public classrooms be more explicitly divided into socialized and un-socialized? How many parents would prefer to have their culturally bright student in a classroom surrounded by other similarly socialized students? Thus, keeping the un-socialized in separate but equal classrooms?

So essentially you want to turn public education into a Brave New World-style dystopia? Because that's precisely what would happen - the separation between classes would grow even stronger.

[Lathum]

So essentially you want to turn public education into a Brave New World-style dystopia? Because that's precisely what would happen - the separation between classes would grow even stronger.

I'm not sure he said he wanted that at all.

[CU Tiger]

Certinly I can't speak for an entire race whether I am idenitifed as that race or not, that said there is a separate (maybe larger) cultural facor at play.

There is still this underlying stigma in the African American community regarding being an Uncle Tom..or otherwise attempts to minimize the expression of their culture. While cultural heritage is something to be celebrated, I have personally witnessed this be expanded to the point where I watched a father figure mock and ridicule an 1 yar old child for making all A's on a report card. An achievement that should have been celebrated and promoted was actively discouraged. The young man responded that he wanted good grades so he could grow up and make a lot of money...his "father figure" replied "Who's got mo money, Jay Z, LeBron, or the manager at Burger King"...and continued that good grades wouldnt make him rich...

Anecdotal and singular incident for sure, but in coaching little league sports for the past 8 years I have seen this over and over to varying degrees.

So are the results biased? Are the schools actually in fact reaching all races equally while some hide their ability?

Beyond my ability to say for sure...but I think its a factor worth mentioning.

[Lathum]

dola- and yes, I would want my kid in a classroom surrounded by other bright students as opposed to kids who, regardless of color, could be a bad influence or distraction.

What parent wouldn't?

[BillJasper]

Having three kids the thing I've noticed most when interacting with the various classrooms is that some kids (all races) simply don't have much structure at home and that creates a conflict.

[rowech]

The divide is only going to get worse as schools start adopting technology and it won't be so much about race anymore as it will be about class. Those with money and technology will have the avenues and opportunities opened up them much more than those that don't. Students in rural areas and inner-city schools that don't have the means to provide these things to their students will be left in the dust.

[digamma]

Having three kids the thing I've noticed most when interacting with the various classrooms is that some kids (all races) simply don't have much structure at home and that creates a conflict.

There are several studies that show that most kids are comparable by an number of improvement metrics from the beginning to the school year to the end of the school year, but there is a huge discrepancy in summer retention. Kids with more structure or means or [pick your adjective] maintain what they've learned and learn more at a significantly higher rate over the summer than those who lack structure/means/____.

[Subby]

Certinly I can't speak for an entire race whether I am idenitifed as that race or not, that said there is a separate (maybe larger) cultural facor at play.

There is still this underlying stigma in the African American community regarding being an Uncle Tom..or otherwise attempts to minimize the expression of their culture. While cultural heritage is something to be celebrated, I have personally witnessed this be expanded to the point where I watched a father figure mock and ridicule an 1 yar old child for making all A's on a report card. An achievement that should have been celebrated and promoted was actively discouraged. The young man responded that he wanted good grades so he could grow up and make a lot of money...his "father figure" replied "Who's got mo money, Jay Z, LeBron, or the manager at Burger King"...and continued that good grades wouldnt make him rich...

Anecdotal and singular incident for sure, but in coaching little league sports for the past 8 years I have seen this over and over to varying degrees.

So are the results biased? Are the schools actually in fact reaching all races equally while some hide their ability?

Beyond my ability to say for sure...but I think its a factor worth mentioning.
What kind of school gives grades to a 1 yar old child? I think we have zeroed in on the problem right there.

[BillJasper]

There are several studies that show that most kids are comparable by an number of improvement metrics from the beginning to the school year to the end of the school year, but there is a huge discrepancy in summer retention. Kids with more structure or means or [pick your adjective] maintain what they've learned and learn more at a significantly higher rate over the summer than those who lack structure/means/____.

I can't speak for the 'means' crowd because we aren't part of it. :lol:

But I always stress that my kids pay attention at school. Bad reports/grades from school are one of the few things that get seriously frowned upon in our home.

[flere-imsaho]

I agree that using "white" as a descriptor is problematic. But, I'm not sure how to address the issue when, for example, all other things being equal (income, neighborhood, family) a black student does worse on tests than a white student. Why?

I'd be interested in seeing the studies that show this. Specifically, do certain ethnicities do better or worse that others? Is there actual correlation there? Or is correlation based more on geography and/or class?

[Butter]

What kind of school gives grades to a 1 yar old child? I think we have zeroed in on the problem right there.

I think 1 yar = 10 earth years.

[BYU 14]

Certinly I can't speak for an entire race whether I am idenitifed as that race or not, that said there is a separate (maybe larger) cultural facor at play.

There is still this underlying stigma in the African American community regarding being an Uncle Tom..or otherwise attempts to minimize the expression of their culture. While cultural heritage is something to be celebrated, I have personally witnessed this be expanded to the point where I watched a father figure mock and ridicule an 1 yar old child for making all A's on a report card. An achievement that should have been celebrated and promoted was actively discouraged. The young man responded that he wanted good grades so he could grow up and make a lot of money...his "father figure" replied "Who's got mo money, Jay Z, LeBron, or the manager at Burger King"...and continued that good grades wouldnt make him rich...

Anecdotal and singular incident for sure, but in coaching little league sports for the past 8 years I have seen this over and over to varying degrees.

So are the results biased? Are the schools actually in fact reaching all races equally while some hide their ability?

Beyond my ability to say for sure...but I think its a factor worth mentioning.

Did you mean 1 or 11?

Parenting is the issue in this example, but you can't apply that in all situations, as I find most African American parents are just the opposite of that stellar Dad. You bring up a good issues though, as regardless of class or race, peer pressure seems to be the one thing that can trump a strong parent who encourages good grades.

Classrooms should be diverse where possible, with a consistent approach to all kids IMO, which tutoring offered as needed to bridge deficiencies. Another key factor to success is keeping the influences that damage academic success to a minimum.

Two examples that are really striking to me.

1-Our daughter came home one day upset because someone told her she talked white and needed to act more black.... I told her that her response should be that she talked neither black or white, she talked "proper" and she should never be ashamed to be educated.

Kids don't get the big picture and many that are completely capable of excelling don't for the fear of being ostracized by their peers who worship the thug factor of those who have made it. What they don't realize is that guys like Jay-Z, Curtis Jackson, etc are actually very articulate in a business setting and have a solid concept of business. Maybe these role models could talk about this more, or even better, parents should point this out. Sure, some genuine thugs/scumbags of all races get rich, but for everyone of them there are thousands and thousands that get nowhere in life. It is just like the athletes we coach. We never encourage them to shoot for an athletic scholarship, we stress working for an academic scholarship and foster that in an environment they are free from peer pressure to blow school off by conducting study halls.

This brings up the second example. We won our section for the third straight year last season, but our biggest source of pride was having 14 players make all-academic first team. More than double the number of any other school in our section. The sad part is, that once they are out of season, grades drop dramatically and this has been a disturbing trend. Our solution this year, if you play Football you will study hall all year long, including your senior year, unless you are involved in other sports or school activities.

This will keep them focused and in a like minded environment and even playing other sports, the opportunity to avoid distraction (plus most other sports have study halls too) will keep them away from the "anchors" that think it is not cool to get good grades and be educated.

[AENeuman]

So essentially you want to turn public education into a Brave New World-style dystopia? Because that's precisely what would happen - the separation between classes would grow even stronger.

I think de facto segregation is still alive and well. I'm suggesting that by openly embracing it less money will be wasted. Any big city is already divided by rich kid private schools and poor public schools. Also, I know here in San Fran the few good public schools are hyper-test based competitive, meaning nearly it's impossible to get in without extra education resources, thus the separation keeps growing.

[BYU 14]

I think de facto segregation is still alive and well. I'm suggesting that by openly embracing it less money will be wasted. Any big city is already divided by rich kid private schools and poor public schools. Also, I know here in San Fran the few good public schools are hyper-test based competitive, meaning nearly it's impossible to get in without extra education resources, thus the separation keeps growing.

So you are taking the stance of that's how it has always been? There is always a solution if enough are willing to embrace it.

[AENeuman]

I'd be interested in seeing the studies that show this. Specifically, do certain ethnicities do better or worse that others? Is there actual correlation there? Or is correlation based more on geography and/or class?

I would argue the correlation exist between communities/cultures that embrace capitalistic-upper middle class norms, and those who do not. In order words: the assimilated and non-assimilated.

As for data, a quick search of "achievement gap and race and income: netted this:

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

[AENeuman]

So you are taking the stance of that's how it has always been? There is always a solution if enough are willing to embrace it.

Yes, it has, and it mostly worked because our economy had a large need of manufacturing type jobs. But as our economy is changing and demanding more extra high schools education/training I think the model is breaking.

[Lathum]

10,000 or 100,000?

[Suicane75]

A black 1 year old makes on average $100,000 a year thanks to the rap industry. How can my kids compete with that?

[tarcone]

Its not race as much as it is economics.
Poor rural schools in "white" areas can be just as poorly rated as big city public schools.
The example above is a lower income response, be it "white" or "black".

Where the money is, is where the opportunities are. Race doesnt really matter.

[tarcone]

The above SAT study was posted as I typed my response.

That is interesting data. And very confusing. Why would that be? Its not nature is it? Because that study would rule out nurture.

I hope this is a PC question.

[Suicane75]

It's not socioeconomic, it's cultural. The sooner we're allowed to start saying that, the better.

[tarcone]

It's not socioeconomic, it's cultural. The sooner we're allowed to start saying that, the better.

But isnt culture related to socioeconomic?

[nol]

I would argue the correlation exist between communities/cultures that embrace capitalistic-upper middle class norms, and those who do not. In order words: the assimilated and non-assimilated.

As for data, a quick search of "achievement gap and race and income: netted this:

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

Major, major selection bias at work. Anyone, regardless of race, from a family making less than $10,000 a year who actually takes the SAT is bound to be significantly more intelligent than their peers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anyone, regardless of race, from a family making less than $10,000 a year who actually takes the SAT is bound to be significantly more intelligent than their peers.

I'm gonna have to disagree on this point I think. I'd argue that SAT participation is more a function of the expectations of the adults around a child than of the child's intellect.

[nol]

I'm gonna have to disagree on this point I think. I'd argue that SAT participation is more a function of the expectations of the adults around a child than of the child's intellect.

My perspective on this is that if you sign up to take a test with a registration fee that's ~25% of what your family brings home in a week, you're not just taking it for the hell of it.

For the average middle-class American where going to college is an expectation, taking the SATs is a another rite of passage like getting your drivers' license or going to prom, so even marginally intelligent kids sign up for it.

[BillJasper]

Major, major selection bias at work. Anyone, regardless of race, from a family making less than $10,000 a year who actually takes the SAT is bound to be significantly more intelligent than their peers.

I thought it was subsidized for students who had parents with low household income?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought it was subsidized for students who had parents with low household income?

Yep, criteria for the fee waiver are pretty easily met too

To be eligible, you must meet at least one of the requirements below:

Enrollment in or eligible to participate in the Federal Free and Reduced Price Lunch program (FRPL).
Annual family income falls within the Income Eligibility Guidelines set by the USDA Food and Nutrition Service.
Enrollment in a federal, state, or local program that aids students from low-income families (e.g. Federal TRIO programs such as Upward Bound).
Family receives public assistance.
Lives in federally subsidized public housing, a foster home or is homeless.
A ward of the state or an orphan.

edit to add: The fee waiver also triggers application fee waivers for a number of colleges AND provides additional score sends at no charge

Your SAT fee waiver covers 100% of the registration fees for a single test date.
You can use up to two waivers for the SAT and up to two waivers for the SAT Subject Tests™. That's a total of four fee waivers (up to three subject tests per test date).
Everyone gets four free score sends with registration. When you use a waiver, you can also send four additional score reports (worth a total of $44) to the colleges of your choice at any time for free.
Most colleges charge an application fee. As a fee waiver recipient, you can obtain up to four requests to waive college application fees from your counselor.

[nol]

I thought it was subsidized for students who had parents with low household income?

I knew someone would bring that up, but that's assuming your school district is proactive enough to fill out the paperwork and make sure students are aware of and prepared for the test. Not as likely when we're talking areas with high concentrations of families earning <$10k/year.

This looks like a report for the state of Florida in 2006: http://reporting.collegeboard.com/rms/repository/College%20Bound%20Srs%20tutorial_Final_WebReady.pdf

Just eyeballing the income figure, about half of the test takers were from the top quartile of household income while 4 percent of test takers came from families earning under $10,000 a year (approximately the 10th percentile in income).

[JonInMiddleGA]

I knew someone would bring that up, but that's assuming your school district is proactive enough to fill out the paperwork and make sure students are aware of and prepared for the test. Not as likely when we're talking areas with high concentrations of families earning <$10k/year.

Varies widely from state to state & even district to district though.

Beyond that however, I said the expectations of adults which includes parents as well as school personnel. At some point, somebody has to get off their ass ... and by the time you're SAT-taking age, that also includes the student.

Honestly, if you aren't looking into those options to help dig yourself (or your child) out of a $10k/year hole, I don't believe college is somewhere you're likely to succeed anyway so I'm not sure I'm going to bemoan the situation a whole lot regardless.

[nol]

Varies widely from state to state & even district to district though.

Beyond that however, I said the expectations of adults which includes parents as well as school personnel. At some point, somebody has to get off their ass ... and by the time you're SAT-taking age, that also includes the student.

Honestly, if you aren't looking into those options to help dig yourself (or your child) out of a $10k/year hole, I don't believe college is somewhere you're likely to succeed anyway so I'm not sure I'm going to bemoan the situation a whole lot regardless.

Which has nothing to do with my original point, that of course white students from families making under $10,000 a year are going to score higher than average, because for them to be taking the test in the first place means that they were smart enough (whether by some innate giftedness or by a better home environment) that some teacher or counselor thought they had a chance to succeed and dig themselves out of that hole.

If you're the guidance counselor at a mediocre, underfunded high school, you're not going out of your way to encourage some kid who has no chance at college to take the SATs and bring down your school's statewide ranking and give yourself a bunch of paperwork in the process. However, a dumb, wealthier kid whose family and peers all took the SAT and went to/are planning to go to college is a lot more likely to take it (and bring down the average for their particular income bracket) than a poor kid from a family where nobody ever attended college.

[Buccaneer]

But isnt culture related to socioeconomic?

I'd go along with that, even historically that had been true.

It's not just "poor" blacks or Hispanics. When I was at grad school at UNC in the 1980s, we (I was a cultural geographer) did a study on education in the state. The most anti-education "culture" I had ever experienced in my life was the white trash of NC, more so than the rural blacks of that state. But that was back then when NC was in the bottom in education standards and the study showed anti-education values being passed down from generation to generation. Since living in Colorado for decades now, I have not been exposed to much anti-education cultures so I can't speak for current trends.

[CU Tiger]

Dammit...typo.
I suck at typing..I need to work on that.

"an 11 year old" not a 1 yar old..damn...sorry guys carry on

[JonInMiddleGA]

Which has nothing to do with my original point, that of course white students from families making under $10,000 a year are going to score higher than average, because for them to be taking the test in the first place means that they were smart enough (whether by some innate giftedness or by a better home environment) that some teacher or counselor thought they had a chance to succeed and dig themselves out of that hole.

So, wait, your contention here what exactly? That white families with <$10k HH income have a better home environment than the average black student in the same circumstances?

Methinks you may be overestimating the conditions of those white families in that income range.

If you're the guidance counselor at a mediocre, underfunded high school, you're not going out of your way to encourage some kid who has no chance at college to take the SATs and bring down your school's statewide ranking and give yourself a bunch of paperwork in the process.

I disagree -- fervently -- because I've seen that exact thing happen on a regular basis for pretty much my entire life (my HS years were the early/mid 80s for reference). It's one (of many many) reasons Georgia SAT scores suck.

[Buccaneer]

All this reminds me of the ebonics debate we had here about 10 years ago.

I have spent a majority of my life working in white-collar IT and have participated on many interview teams. The values we always look for goes beyond technical. Those values are communications (written and oral) and character = teamwork, work ethic, attitude and ethics. If those are "whitey" values (they shouldn't be), then so be it and schools (of all types) should be teaching those and supported by parents.

Here's a snippet from my son's high school on character:

While our approach differs according to the students’ maturity level, we teach virtue and foster strong character using the same basic methods across the grades. We define the virtues and positive character traits so we share a common understanding among all students and staff; we intentionally model virtue and character in all that we do; we use “stories” in literature and history to highlight examples of virtue; we create events to acknowledge and reward displays of good character; we hold a high standard of character and civility and address failures in these areas when they arise; and we unambiguously teach that there are objective rights and wrongs and that virtue is not simply what feels right at the time.

I believe these can be taught to all socioeconomic classes - as my son's school have done extremely well (highest standardized test scores in the state and 93% college placement). I do not believe anyone is or should be automatically excluded.

[CU Tiger]

Did you mean 1 or 11?

Parenting is the issue in this example, but you can't apply that in all situations, as I find most African American parents are just the opposite of that stellar Dad. You bring up a good issues though, as regardless of class or race, peer pressure seems to be the one thing that can trump a strong parent who encourages good grades.

Classrooms should be diverse where possible, with a consistent approach to all kids IMO, which tutoring offered as needed to bridge deficiencies. Another key factor to success is keeping the influences that damage academic success to a minimum.

Two examples that are really striking to me.

1-Our daughter came home one day upset because someone told her she talked white and needed to act more black.... I told her that her response should be that she talked neither black or white, she talked "proper" and she should never be ashamed to be educated.

Kids don't get the big picture and many that are completely capable of excelling don't for the fear of being ostracized by their peers who worship the thug factor of those who have made it. What they don't realize is that guys like Jay-Z, Curtis Jackson, etc are actually very articulate in a business setting and have a solid concept of business. Maybe these role models could talk about this more, or even better, parents should point this out. Sure, some genuine thugs/scumbags of all races get rich, but for everyone of them there are thousands and thousands that get nowhere in life. It is just like the athletes we coach. We never encourage them to shoot for an athletic scholarship, we stress working for an academic scholarship and foster that in an environment they are free from peer pressure to blow school off by conducting study halls.

This brings up the second example. We won our section for the third straight year last season, but our biggest source of pride was having 14 players make all-academic first team. More than double the number of any other school in our section. The sad part is, that once they are out of season, grades drop dramatically and this has been a disturbing trend. Our solution this year, if you play Football you will study hall all year long, including your senior year, unless you are involved in other sports or school activities.

This will keep them focused and in a like minded environment and even playing other sports, the opportunity to avoid distraction (plus most other sports have study halls too) will keep them away from the "anchors" that think it is not cool to get good grades and be educated.



Thank you. You said what I was trying to demonstrate.
Sometimes it is parents, sometimes peers, but I have witnessed too many intelligent kids intentionally do worse than their capable of INTENTIONALLY to fit in.

[nol]

So, wait, your contention here what exactly? That white families with <$10k HH income have a better home environment than the average black student in the same circumstances?

Methinks you may be overestimating the conditions of those white families in that income range.



That white kids with <$10k HH income who actually take the SAT will have higher than average SAT scores. Survivorship bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)

It's indisputable that kids from higher-income families are overrepresented among SAT test takers. What this means is that if you take two kids (regardless of race) who would score a 600 on the SAT, and one of them's from a family earning less than $10k/year and the other one's from an upper-middle class family, the upper-middle class one is way more likely to actually take the test.

[Noop]

Simply put most black kids do not care about education because most of their societal role models did not need education to make money. (i.e. LeBron, Jay Z, Athletes, Singers, Rappers)

A majority of these kids do not know even know how to write properly.

I think the issue starts with the women, but that is that issue for another day.

[Buccaneer]

Simply put most black kids do not care about education because most of their societal role models did not need education to make money. (i.e. LeBron, Jay Z, Athletes, Singers, Rappers)

A majority of these kids do not know even know how to write properly.

I think the issue starts with the women, but that is that issue for another day.

LOL, you had me until you dropped your bombshell.

Tell me, Noop, you would be a role model considering that you are pursuing a professional degree and having to overcome some difficulties in your life. What motivated and encouraged you to do so despite what most other black kids would do (to use your words)?

[AENeuman]

Which has nothing to do with my original point, that of course white students from families making under $10,000 a year are going to score higher than average, because for them to be taking the test in the first place means that they were smart enough (whether by some innate giftedness or by a better home environment) that some teacher or counselor thought they had a chance to succeed and dig themselves out of that hole.

If you're the guidance counselor at a mediocre, underfunded high school, you're not going out of your way to encourage some kid who has no chance at college to take the SATs and bring down your school's statewide ranking and give yourself a bunch of paperwork in the process. However, a dumb, wealthier kid whose family and peers all took the SAT and went to/are planning to go to college is a lot more likely to take it (and bring down the average for their particular income bracket) than a poor kid from a family where nobody ever attended college.

I'm not following your argument. Why do you think a poor white kid will score better than a poor black kid? That teachers in poor minority dumb schools are too reluctant and lazy to even help out the smart kids?

Anyway, I'm not sure how your argument still answers why black students over 100k score less.

It's not just SAT's too. The California Standardized tests scores show that in math and science low income white kids score better than high income black and Hispanic students. In English, high income white kids out perform high income black and Hispanic kids. Why?

Here's the math and science link: STEMing the minority gap | Thoughts on Public Education (http://toped.svefoundation.org/2012/04/03/steming-the-minority-gap/)

[AENeuman]

All this reminds me of the ebonics debate we had here about 10 years ago.

I have spent a majority of my life working in white-collar IT and have participated on many interview teams. The values we always look for goes beyond technical. Those values are communications (written and oral) and character = teamwork, work ethic, attitude and ethics. If those are "whitey" values (they shouldn't be), then so be it and schools (of all types) should be teaching those and supported by parents.

While I do not think your character qualities are in themselves better than other ones, I do think they are the best ones to be successful in our current society.

The problem is, not all families, communities share your (and your school) opinion. What then should be done with their children? Right now we throw them (along with lots of money) to public educators and say, socialize them, or, even more cynically, parent them the right way. The result is less attention and stimulation for the properly socialized and a repressive discipline policy aimed at the un-socialized.

I'm arguing, that to "solve" public education, this race/income socialization expectation needs to be discussed. One possible outcome could be behavioral expectations for all students entering kindergarten. Make sure all students have the skills to be properly socialized so that the can become a productive member in our laissez faire society.

[nol]

I'm not following your argument. Why do you think a poor white kid will score better than a poor black kid?

I never said anything at all about poor black students because the first article you posted had no reference to their scores, only those of poor white students. If I had to speculate, I'd guess that poor white students would also score better than poor black students on the SAT, on average, because a disproportionate amount of the latter group would be composed of prospective Division I athletes who just need to get a minimum score.

That teachers in poor minority dumb schools are too reluctant and lazy to even help out the smart kids?

In so many words, yes. I went to a high school that is right around the 50th percentile for my state in standardized test scores. Even at that level, the focus was mainly on making sure people show up to class/are on track to graduate. Less than 25% of my class took the ACTs, and I had to drive about an hour to another school to take the SAT with two other students. If that's average, then schools in the 10th percentile are going to be pretty horrible.


Anyway, I'm not sure how your argument still answers why black students over 100k score less.

There is a cultural element to that, but it's not "The poor white kids pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do better than the rich black kids," as much as it's "The poor white kids that actually take the SAT are going to be from the top 10-20 percent of all poor white kids in terms of intelligence, so it makes sense they'd score higher than black kids as a whole, and they'd probably score more than white kids as a whole if there wasn't a multibillion dollar test prep industry powered by predominantly wealthy families/school districts."


It's not just SAT's too. The California Standardized tests scores show that in math and science low income white kids score better than high income black and Hispanic students.

This is definitely an area where cultural arguments like "we need to stress STEM professions for black/Latino students because there aren't enough role models for them in those fields" do carry more weight. I would caution that standardized tests are incredibly easy to game, and that it's hard to say too much about that data without knowing whether high income black and Latino students will are more likely to be in worse school districts than their white counterparts.

In English, high income white kids out perform high income black and Hispanic kids. Why?

Going out on a limb here, but because more of them grew up speaking the language?

[AENeuman]

If I had to speculate, I'd guess that poor white students would also score better than poor black students on the SAT, on average, because a disproportionate amount of the latter group would be composed of prospective Division I athletes who just need to get a minimum score.

This is exactly the kind of conversation that needs to happen. From how I read your statement, you are saying that poor black kids have lower scores because they are too lazy to do better.


Going out on a limb here, but because more of them grew up speaking the language?

Again, great concept. I'm assuming you also mean the African American community is also, basically, English Language Learners.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Out of idle curiosity ... did the new book from the "Tiger Mom" have anything to do with inspiring this thread?

[Young Drachma]

Simply put most black kids do not care about education because most of their societal role models did not need education to make money. (i.e. LeBron, Jay Z, Athletes, Singers, Rappers)

A majority of these kids do not know even know how to write properly.

I think the issue starts with the women, but that is that issue for another day.

You need to get out more and read more (non-law school) books mah nigga.

[Izulde]

I thought a fair bit about this morning from the perspective of a little over 5 years of first year composition teaching at the college level, and I realized that from my own anecdotal experience, it tends to go something like this:

White males and females have no noticeable trends either way. The distribution of writing quality follows the basic curve you might expect - a few exceptional, a few in need of major work, and most in the middle.

Hispanic males and females overall tended to have had the second worst writing in my classes. I suspect this is a result of more than a few of them being first generation college students. That's not to say I've had no great writers here - I have - It's just that from a global perspective, this is how it goes.

African-American males and females have the single greatest disparity of any racial group, and it's quite astounding, really. In fact, as a whole, I'd say the black women in my classes tend to be one of the strongest groups of writers overall, and yet the black men have tended to be the worst group of writers, and it's not that close. Again, I'm talking about general terms here rather than universal statements.

I don't have enough data points on American-born Asian students to be able to comment on them one way or the other - most of the ones I've had are foreign-born.

My international students, regardless of race, tend to either be really, really strong, to the point where they outperform native speakers/writers (this was especially true at UArk), or the weaker than English as first language students like you might expect.

Again, this is completely anecdotal, and I was tossing it out there for consideration.

[Young Drachma]

You all need to read more and stop letting ancedotal experience drive your perceptions of people. There's too many data and information for you all to be living in the "WELL I ONCE MET ONE OF THEM AND YOU KNOW..." zone.

Correlation does not imply causation and there are a lot of things at work that most folks who are speaking out of turn don't really know about, understand or care about the root causes of.

It's not as easy as "pathologies" or "the bracks don't appreciate book learnin'" like most things, it's far more complicated than that. And by trying to distill into pea shaped material that helps you all digest it better and sleep better at night or whatever; you discount the real issues that if more people in society understood the root causes, we could begin to come up with REAL solutions rather than band aid measures that isolate populations and don't address structural problems that affect challenged populations beyond just race or whatever marker you're using.

Depending how much more of a trainwreck this thing is, maybe I'll cobble together a book list for you folks. It won't help, but it might make me feel better because so many you don't really know what the hell you're talking about and it's embarrassing, well-intentioned or not.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm gonna have to disagree on this point I think. I'd argue that SAT participation is more a function of the expectations of the adults around a child than of the child's intellect.

I would presume, though, that the expectations of parents (good or bad) would have a correlating affect on both SAT participation and performance.

So, it still comes back to parents, and the affect of communities on parents (and their children), probably in that order.

[flere-imsaho]

Another way of bringing it out in the open would be to explore some of the the motivations behind private schools. In essence, a private school gives parents the opportunity to put their child in a homogenous classroom, one with shared behaviors and expectations. Should public classrooms be more explicitly divided into socialized and un-socialized? How many parents would prefer to have their culturally bright student in a classroom surrounded by other similarly socialized students? Thus, keeping the un-socialized in separate but equal classrooms?

No, because private and public schools actually have different missions.

A private school's mission is to provide a competitive education to a group of (mostly) homogenous, (generally) excelling students.

A public school's mission is to provide a baseline education (and competitive where time & resources permit) to a heterogeneous (often dramatically so, by many measures) group of students.

If we have public schools adopt the private school mission, then we agree to cut loose vast swathes of American children.

[nol]

This is exactly the kind of conversation that needs to happen. From how I read your statement, you are saying that poor black kids have lower scores because they are too lazy to do better.


Again, great concept. I'm assuming you also mean the African American community is also, basically, English Language Learners.

What the hell? What I'm saying is hardly any poor people, regardless of race, take the SAT. Those that do are more likely to be smart because if your family's in poverty and you're not gonna get high enough scores to get a hefty scholarship or get into a college with need-blind financial aid, what's the point in taking the SAT?

If you threw out everyone that is taking the test just to be eligible for college sports (who would presumably be scoring below average because they don't need to ace it), I'm sure poor black kids who take the SAT would have above average scores as well. I'll attach a diagram to explain what's going on, where only the people to the right of the tall red bar actually take the SAT.

Coincidentally, the tiger mom makes the same elementary errors in survivorship bias. If you look at Chinese and Indian immigrants compared to African Americans, of course the immigrants are going to look like they have some intrinsic cultural superiority: the people who actually get to leave those countries and come to America are disproportionately made up of doctors, entrepreneurs, and PhD. students.

[RainMaker]

It's not socioeconomic, it's cultural. The sooner we're allowed to start saying that, the better.

That won't happen though. Teachers want to blame it on not having enough money so they will get more. School districts will blame it on not having enough money so they can get more. Parents will blame everyone but themselves.

[AENeuman]

If we have public schools adopt the private school mission, then we agree to cut loose vast swathes of American children.

Perhaps we should. Or maybe, perhaps we should stop pretending we are not already doing that.

Education may very well be the silver bullet in ending perpetual poverty, but the education now provided is not helping. Furthermore, this noble effort is often at the expense of all other types of students.

For example, the community college rate of 7 out of 10 will not have any type degree within 6 years of starting, demonstrates the uselessness of earning just a basic high school education.

[cougarfreak]

Perhaps we should. Or maybe, perhaps we should stop pretending we are not already doing that.

Education may very well be the silver bullet in ending perpetual poverty, but the education now provided is not helping. Furthermore, this noble effort is often at the expense of all other types of students.

For example, the community college rate of 7 out of 10 will not have any type degree within 6 years of starting, demonstrates the uselessness of earning just a basic high school education.

Not so sure that's a reflection on the job HS is doing if people aren't graduating college within 6 years. How is that education's fault? How many of the quit because of economics, partying, or other non academic factors?

[CU Tiger]

Perhaps we should. Or maybe, perhaps we should stop pretending we are not already doing that.

Education may very well be the silver bullet in ending perpetual poverty, but the education now provided is not helping. Furthermore, this noble effort is often at the expense of all other types of students.

For example, the community college rate of 7 out of 10 will not have any type degree within 6 years of starting, demonstrates the uselessness of earning just a basic high school education.


Do we now discuss abandoning the entire Prussian education system...that would be a major step in the right direction

[Buccaneer]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this. Another teacher resigns for not wanting to teach to the test, particularly the awfulness of the one-size-fits-all government solution called Common Core:

A poignant resignation letter that Colorado Springs teacher Pauline Hawkins wrote and posted on her blog Monday talks about her love of teaching and the pride she has in her students, colleagues, school and district.

And yet, she writes that she is resigning her post after 11 years as an English teacher at Liberty High School at the end of the school year for reasons that reflect a flashpoint for many frustrated educators here and nationwide.

The letter has gone viral, and her blog, paulinehawkins.com, has received more than 9,000 online hits in less than two days.

Her letter is a sad farewell to her administration and her students, laying bare her feelings about what she sees as the federal and state government overstepping local control of schools. At the heart of her distress are the new Common Core standards, low teacher pay in Colorado and endless testing and teaching to the test, which she and many others believe is making students fail rather than succeed.

Her letter says in part: "I can no longer be a part of a system that continues to do the exact opposite of what I am supposed to do as a teacher - I am supposed to help them think for themselves, help them find solutions to problems, help them become productive members of society. Instead, the emphasis is on Common Core Standards and high stakes testing that is creating a teach to the test mentality for our teachers, and stress and anxiety for our students."

She added, "Students have increasingly become hesitant to think for themselves, because they have been programmed to believe that there is one right answer."

Farewells go public

These types of public resignation letters are showing up more often in social media as teachers vent their frustrations with a system they believe is failing them and their students. Recently, a letter from a 20-year teaching veteran of Cambridge Public Schools in Massachusetts expressed similar pain that went viral on social media.

"I feel my spirit, my passion as a teacher slip away," the teacher wrote. She, too, pointed to mandated assessment tests.

Another teacher in eastern Colorado penned a similar farewell, noting she was going to teach inmates in a prison school for more money so she could support her family.

Hawkins has taught in Academy School District 20 for her entire career. In an interview Wednesday, she was tearful about her students' reactions.

"I start crying every day because my students tell me they are sad I'm leaving and that I have helped them."

She emphasized that she was not upset with her district administrators.

"The problem in education today is a government problem," she said. "It is way overstepping boundaries."

Many Colorado administrators and school boards in recent months have expressed similar sentiments, saying they're fed up with many of the new state-mandated education requirements that come without funding to implement them.

Numerous school boards in El Paso County have passed resolutions that they sent to the governor and legislators, criticizing the one-size-fits-all regulations and other new requirements piling up without state funding.

An example is Lewis-Palmer School District 38 in Monument, which sent a resolution saying it does "not support changing curriculum or standards to align with the new Common Core standards."

Hawkins' resignation letter underscores issues surrounding the Common Core standards, which were created in 2009 by the National Governors Association for Best Practices as an antidote to U.S. student test scores that lag behind those in other nations. The carrot: substantial federal education grants. The standards were adopted by 44 states, including Colorado, which received $18 million from the federal government.

The standards outline math and English language arts and literacy goals for kindergarten through 12th grade. The theory behind Common Core is that students all over the country should have the same education and standards. But some parents and teachers nationwide have criticized the one-size-fits-all approach to education and testing.

Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers, said in an email that she understands the criticism and the need for some teachers to make their complaints public, as Hawkins did.

"It is heartbreaking that public education has become so toxic that everything is reduced to a test score. Kids are not test scores and teachers are not algorithms. Getting lost in all the hyper-testing is the joy of learning and the need to provide teachers with the tools, resources and time to teach a rich curriculum so they are well prepared. We've got to end the hyper-fixation on testing and data and focus on teaching and learning and giving teachers a real voice in the education of their students."

Tests are taking more time

A poll of 1,500 Colorado Education Association teachers found they had to spend more than 30 percent of their instruction time preparing students for assessment tests or giving the tests to students.

"We believe it should be only 5 percent. It is driving people out of the profession," CEA spokesman Mike Wetzel said. "It's taking the soul and joy out of education for them, and the stress on kids is making some of them physically ill."

He said the association is supporting two legislative bills to address some of its concerns. House Bill 1202 would create a task force of education stakeholders to study the impact of teaching and assessment. Senate Bill 165 would delay basing teacher evaluations on the new tests until they see how the data shakes out.

On Hawkins' blog, well-wishers are praising her. One man wrote: "It takes courage to step up and publicly expose the pain and suffering which students and teachers alike are suffering from the industrialization of education. There is a growing movement to establish an effective alternative and I hope you can find it."

Hawkins said she can be more outspoken now that she is resigning and went public to give voice to the feelings of a lot of teachers who fear consequences for speaking out.

Hawkins said she plans to move to New Hampshire with her 9-year-old son.

"I have opted him out of all testing," she said. "He doesn't need the labels that come with it, or to feel the stress. Those tests don't tell us anything about him or other students."

She will live near her two adult daughters and hopes to find a tutoring job.

"I knew I wanted to be a teacher from age 16. When I was in college, I was a tutor. I really fell in love with helping students."

She said she will fight to improve education.

"I will use my writing to become an advocate for the changes needed."


Read more at Colorado Springs teacher goes public with reasons for resignation (http://gazette.com/colorado-springs-teacher-goes-public-with-reasons-for-resignation/article/1517971#aWRX0edI0PbpVFZu.99)

[panerd]

As a teacher I'm no fan of the common core (or any high stakes test for that matter) but the common core seems to be less about teaching to the test/one right answer than any previous state mandated test we have ever had. I think the hatred of the common core is more about politics than about the test.

And the 30% number is insane and (IMO) a blatent lie. One out of every three classes for strictly test prep? Just teach and your kids will do fine.

[Izulde]

As a teacher I'm no fan of the common core (or any high stakes test for that matter) but the common core seems to be less about teaching to the test/one right answer than any previous state mandated test we have ever had. I think the hatred of the common core is more about politics than about the test.

From what I understand of Common Core, it's up to each district to decide how they want to go about achieving its objectives, so there are some districts who do the smart thing and give the teachers the freedom to teach how they do best, and others who opt for a more regimented approach.

This has been one of the more fascinating issues from a political standpoint. It doesn't divide neatly among liberal/conservative lines - Some of my liberal friends absolutely love it. Others despise it. I think the difference comes down to that local district handling of how to meet the objectives.

[panerd]

From what I understand of Common Core, it's up to each district to decide how they want to go about achieving its objectives, so there are some districts who do the smart thing and give the teachers the freedom to teach how they do best, and others who opt for a more regimented approach.

This has been one of the more fascinating issues from a political standpoint. It doesn't divide neatly among liberal/conservative lines - Some of my liberal friends absolutely love it. Others despise it. I think the difference comes down to that local district handling of how to meet the objectives.

That would make more sense. If thats the case then the lady in the article who holds the administrators blameless is very misguided.

EDIT: And you are right to some degree about individual's liking or not liking the common core. But a quick look at the states choosing to "opt out" and discussing opting out doesn't look much different than a red/blue state map.

[Buccaneer]

Or perhaps it plays back into the OP about how to bring standards up in failing districts? That's fine but those schools/districts that are already doing fine shouldn't have to spend that much time (x%) when it would more beneficial to teach character, critical thinking and responsibilities in the context of academic disciplines. I simply have a dislike for one-size-fits-all solutions from the federal govt to a problem best solved locally. How much control a local district can have, I do not know.

[panerd]

Or perhaps it plays back into the OP about how to bring standards up in failing districts? That's fine but those schools/districts that are already doing fine shouldn't have to spend that much time (x%) when it would more beneficial to teach character, critical thinking and responsibilities in the context of academic disciplines. I simply have a dislike for one-size-fits-all solutions from the federal govt to a problem best solved locally. How much control a local district can have, I do not know.

You couldn't have a bigger libertarian ally on this board than me but this "one size fits all" nonsense has been going on here in Missouri ever since I became a teacher 17 years ago. NCLB made it worse and the common core is at best keeping it at NCLB levels. My only point is where has all this outrage been? IMO, it's definitely political outrage (Glenn Beck, etc) than it is outrage over testing. Like I said the 30% is just garbage thrown out by the AFT to attract some "Whoa is me" sympathy. And if any district spends that amount of time teaching to the test than it's school board members should be voted out and it's administrators fired. It's really that simple of a solution to me. I've seen the sample test and if you are even an average teacher it should require no additional prep time outside of normal instruction and curriculum.

[Autumn]

As a teacher I'm no fan of the common core (or any high stakes test for that matter) but the common core seems to be less about teaching to the test/one right answer than any previous state mandated test we have ever had. I think the hatred of the common core is more about politics than about the test.

And the 30% number is insane and (IMO) a blatent lie. One out of every three classes for strictly test prep? Just teach and your kids will do fine.

Yes, I think Common Core is an improvement along those lines for sure. I think the largest difference is that the standards are much, much higher in that they demand a level of knowledge and thinking that is typically grade levels higher than what students were doing in the past. So it's much more demanding--teachers don't necessary have to teach to the test but there's a sense of urgency in having to up the level of their students' game to a shocking degree, I think. Our schools are trying to get there, and I see my elementary school kids doing math, for instance, that used to be taught in junior high and high school. There were a lot of kids who were already struggling, so I think teachers are feeling the pressure of having to somehow get those kids way ahead.

[flere-imsaho]

And the 30% number is insane and (IMO) a blatent lie. One out of every three classes for strictly test prep? Just teach and your kids will do fine.

Given that test scores are as inputs to funding, promotions, even whether a school stays open or is closed, you can see there's significant incentive to not just get your kids to "do fine", but to do as well as absolutely possible. That's the problem.

[Buccaneer]

All good points.

[panerd]

Given that test scores are as inputs to funding, promotions, even whether a school stays open or is closed, you can see there's significant incentive to not just get your kids to "do fine", but to do as well as absolutely possible. That's the problem.

I agree but I just want the teachers to have some integrity. Any time I hear a teacher talking about how they "had" to teach to the test I think about Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire. You don't have to do anything that goes against your principles. If your school tries to force you to teach to the test call them out on it and get a job somewhere else. Maybe I am blessed that I teach in a school district that doesn't force this on us but I can't imagine staying for more than a year if they did.

[panerd]

Yes, I think Common Core is an improvement along those lines for sure. I think the largest difference is that the standards are much, much higher in that they demand a level of knowledge and thinking that is typically grade levels higher than what students were doing in the past. So it's much more demanding--teachers don't necessary have to teach to the test but there's a sense of urgency in having to up the level of their students' game to a shocking degree, I think. Our schools are trying to get there, and I see my elementary school kids doing math, for instance, that used to be taught in junior high and high school. There were a lot of kids who were already struggling, so I think teachers are feeling the pressure of having to somehow get those kids way ahead.

True but that is where the federal government cynic in me really comes out. So this is a federal program that they want to work right? You don't think those very noble/high standards are going to change when the results come back? NCLB demanded 100% proficiency as of like this year or last. What happened? New program. Reset. I have no doubt that in 2016 either a Republican or even a new Democrat will have their whole new program with new guidelines, new standards. Rinse. Repeat.

[flere-imsaho]

Any time I hear a teacher talking about how they "had" to teach to the test I think about Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire. You don't have to do anything that goes against your principles. If your school tries to force you to teach to the test call them out on it and get a job somewhere else.

While I agree with you in principle, this dilemma exists for many people in many jobs. The balance between sticking up for your principles and earning a living wage is a tough one.

And, as in most jobs, will your leaving actually change anything. People like to think that employees will leave en masse over principles, but is very, very rarely happens, especially in white collar professions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The whole "teaching to the test" complaint really, I dunno, perplexes me? Confounds me? I can't even pick exactly the word because it makes little to no sense to complain about ... and here's why.

IF the test covers the material that the students are expected to have mastery of/competence in then, well, exactly what the hell is wrong with "teaching to the test" since it covers exactly what is supposed to be taught in the first place?

Now, IF the test is not covering the material that students are responsible for -- whether by reaching beyond that material or by leaving large swaths of that material untouched -- THEN I see a problem with the test that should be corrected, however that is still ultimately an issue with the test rather than with the notion of "teaching to it".

[panerd]

While I agree with you in principle, this dilemma exists for many people in many jobs. The balance between sticking up for your principles and earning a living wage is a tough one.

And, as in most jobs, will your leaving actually change anything. People like to think that employees will leave en masse over principles, but is very, very rarely happens, especially in white collar professions.

True enough though I think my point is still that this uproar is all political. If her school is making her spend X amount of time preparing for common core I call BS that they used to make her spend 0 amount of time preparing for NCLB etc... The worksheet mill schools have been that way forever and as the data shows it doesn't seem to help.

[panerd]

The whole "teaching to the test" complaint really, I dunno, perplexes me? Confounds me? I can't even pick exactly the word because it makes little to no sense to complain about ... and here's why.

IF the test covers the material that the students are expected to have mastery of/competence in then, well, exactly what the hell is wrong with "teaching to the test" since it covers exactly what is supposed to be taught in the first place?

Now, IF the test is not covering the material that students are responsible for -- whether by reaching beyond that material or by leaving large swaths of that material untouched -- THEN I see a problem with the test that should be corrected, however that is still ultimately an issue with the test rather than with the notion of "teaching to it".

My interpretation of "teaching to the test" is that a standardized test is the exact same year to year so they teach specifically the 100 questions on the test and no actual learning is taking place. What you describe (to me at least) is a different animal all together.

i.e. Question 45 asks a to name a 5 sided figure. Instruction: A pentagon has 5 sides. Kid: What do you call a figure with six sides? Teacher: Let's move on to question 46. (Obviously I am taking it to an extreme but there are schools that teach pretty much right to the test in a less blatent way)

[JPhillips]

Common Core is not a federal, one-size-fits-all program. It was developed by the National Governors Association in consultation with private groups. The Feds have now backed the effort, but this came from state governments.

Not that I'm a big supporter of Common Core. I'm fairly agnostic about te material and mildly displeased with the testing. IMO, one of the big problems with the tests is that the stakes for schools are very high and the stakes for students are very low.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Common Core is not a federal, one-size-fits-all program. It was developed by the National Governors Association in consultation with private groups. The Feds have now backed the effort, but this came from state governments.

Not that I'm a big supporter of Common Core. I'm fairly agnostic about te material and mildly displeased with the testing. IMO, one of the big problems with the tests is that the stakes for schools are very high and the stakes for students are very low.

I'm not all that far off with this post really. And listening to the same people who developed this idea (such as several GOP governors) now rail against it is a complete eye-roller for me.

[flere-imsaho]

My interpretation of "teaching to the test" is that a standardized test is the exact same year to year so they teach specifically the 100 questions on the test and no actual learning is taking place. What you describe (to me at least) is a different animal all together.

i.e. Question 45 asks a to name a 5 sided figure. Instruction: A pentagon has 5 sides. Kid: What do you call a figure with six sides? Teacher: Let's move on to question 46. (Obviously I am taking it to an extreme but there are schools that teach pretty much right to the test in a less blatent way)

I was going to respond to Jon, but panerd more-or-less summed up what I was meaning by "teaching to the test".

Not that I'm a big supporter of Common Core. I'm fairly agnostic about te material and mildly displeased with the testing. IMO, one of the big problems with the tests is that the stakes for schools are very high and the stakes for students are very low.

Standardized tests are a blunt instrument. As such I'm OK with them being used to determine whether or not a particular school (or district) meets certain baselines (and even then some critical thinking needs to come into play regarding the results), but using them as a major factor to determine the relative worth of instruction at that school (past baseline achievement) is a problem.

I'm not all that far off with this post really. And listening to the same people who developed this idea (such as several GOP governors) now rail against it is a complete eye-roller for me.

I hadn't heard about this. You've got to be kidding me....

[sterlingice]

I hadn't heard about this. You've got to be kidding me....

Seriously? That's what this whole brouhaha is all about. The Governer's Association actually agreed to it with like 45 of 50 states approving them because there was the carrot of some money attached. But now the GOP governors are getting wet feet because, well, if your party's defining platform element has been "get rid of any central control (i.e. standards)" then, well, oops.

SI

[Buccaneer]

So the Feds are using this standard as blackmail in giving state monies from the federal budget? I guess that's one way of playing the game they agreed to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I hadn't heard about this. You've got to be kidding me....

In Georgia you'd think that the previous republican governor (Perdue) wasn't one of the big backers of CC during development, the GOP here hasn't been able to run fast enough from it. It's about as welcome as a visit from Obama & Pelosi.

I'll grant that, best I can tell, the reason a lot of the remaining establishment is getting as far away as quickly as possible is because there seems to be an enormous amount of animosity towards CC at a very grass roots level. Teachers hate it, parents hate it (although I doubt half of the complainers could spell "Common Core" correctly consistently just to be candid about it).

[sterlingice]

So the Feds are using this standard as blackmail in giving state monies from the federal budget? I guess that's one way of playing the game they agreed to.

It was for divvying up the new Race to the Top grants not messing with existing funding, iirc

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was going to respond to Jon, but panerd more-or-less summed up what I was meaning by "teaching to the test".

And what Panerd describes is far from anything I've actually come across happening in reality. "teaching to the test" may very well be one of the great strawmen arguments of our time afaic. Most of the complaints about it I come across actually boil down to "we don't like being told what items we have to teach during the year" (and the parental arguments against it usually seem to end up being more a case of "you're trying to put too much on our little darlings")

but using them as a major factor to determine the relative worth of instruction at that school (past baseline achievement) is a problem.

Hey, back to normal: something we can be in complete disagreement about ;)

[JPhillips]

On my Facebook page the antis seem to be the anti-vaccination type liberals and the Tea Party chain email Republicans. Both groups, for differing reasons, seem to believe Common Core instruction and testing is designed to harvest and mutate their children's precious bodily fluids.

[flere-imsaho]

Hey, back to normal: something we can be in complete disagreement about ;)

Quite. (http://www.osatwork.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=42013&page=2)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Quite. (http://www.osatwork.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=42013&page=2)

You have waaaaaaay too much time on your hands :D

[flere-imsaho]

And what Panerd describes is far from anything I've actually come across happening in reality. "teaching to the test" may very well be one of the great strawmen arguments of our time afaic. Most of the complaints about it I come across actually boil down to "we don't like being told what items we have to teach during the year" (and the parental arguments against it usually seem to end up being more a case of "you're trying to put too much on our little darlings")


Many professional certifications that rely on passing standardized tests (PMP and MCSE, for example) are criticized because it's possible to learn how to pass the test without really learning any of the content very well.

Or take Advanced Placement courses. The curriculum for these courses is based heavily around the test, including (as I recall from personal experience) a fair amount of instruction on how to succeed at the act of actually taking the test. But aside from the accumulation of college credits and the temporary benefits of rote memorization, how much do students gain from these classes?

That's two examples where "teaching to the test" produces dubious, or at least unreliable results. Expanding the importance of this practice beyond determining whether or not a baseline of achievement is being reached has always seemed of questionable merit, to me.

[flere-imsaho]

You have waaaaaaay too much time on your hands :D

Nah, I just had this nagging feeling we had argued on this topic when NCLB was hot. From there it was a simple search.

[Buccaneer]

So, are they getting the results - in relation to the monies being expended or otherwise? Are students doing better with English comp, math and science?

[JonInMiddleGA]

But aside from the accumulation of college credits and the temporary benefits of rote memorization, how much do students gain from these classes?

You already hit on it: the cheaper route to college credit. That's absolutely positively the only reason I'm getting my son as many of them as possible. The content is, at best, shabby. When a teenager complains about how shallow the material is, well ...

Thing is, the benefit of a fair number of college classes in the first place is at best dubious afaic so at least this serves some purpose.

[flere-imsaho]

So, are they getting the results - in relation to the monies being expended or otherwise? Are students doing better with English comp, math and science?

IIRC, results from a decade of NCLB were very inconclusive.

[flere-imsaho]

You already hit on it: the cheaper route to college credit. That's absolutely positively the only reason I'm getting my son as many of them as possible. The content is, at best, shabby. When a teenager complains about how shallow the material is, well ...

Thing is, the benefit of a fair number of college classes in the first place is at best dubious afaic so at least this serves some purpose.

So basically what you're saying is that a curriculum designed to meet a standardized test's requirements has few benefits from the standpoint of actual learning, right?

[AENeuman]

If her school is making her spend X amount of time preparing for common core I call BS that they used to make her spend 0 amount of time preparing for NCLB etc... The worksheet mill schools have been that way forever and as the data shows it doesn't seem to help.

:+1:

So frustrating, everyone here who has had direct Common Core experience says the opposite of this "conventional wisdom" rhetoric.

That teacher story is total BS. If for only the fact that this is the fist trial year of testing! So all her frustration and weariness must have come from the last couple of weeks, lame and dangerous.

The "one size fits all" propaganda must be lead my some group that gains something from this. My immediate reaction is always, have you read the Common Core Standards? Which one is Marxist/Big Brother?

Here is an example of a US History Common Core standard:
Evaluate various explanations for actions or events and determine which explanation best accords with textual evidence, acknowledging where the text leaves matters uncertain.

Here is an example from the outgoing US History California State standard:
Explain Theodore Roosevelt's Big Stick diplomacy, William Taft's Dollar Diplomacy, and Woodrow Wilson's Moral Diplomacy, drawing on relevant speeches.

Which one would require you to "teach to the test"? Which one would fit into a universal test? The Common Core standard gives great freedom for the teacher/school/district to create their own curriculum to achieve this open ended, yet highly useful skill.

[AENeuman]

That's fine but those schools/districts that are already doing fine shouldn't have to spend that much time (x%) when it would more beneficial to teach character, critical thinking and responsibilities in the context of academic disciplines.

I'm not sure any parent of a good school would be pleased with high character, critical thinking and responsibility and low AP and SAT scores. I think there is more pressure for teachers to teach to those tests than the state or national ones.

[Buccaneer]

Going to the OP, is this helping non-white students in your class, which I assume is the intended benefit of standardized curriculum?

Even when I was in school, we had standard tests (Iowa something) but I don't recall any time taken away to prep for the tests - it was all part of what was normally taught (3Rs). My son takes CCAP every year and since he is at an academically rigorous school, the tests are easy for all (thus they score the highest in the state). The biggest complaints are that they take too much time to administer and that time takes away from regular teachings.

[Buccaneer]

I'm not sure any parent of a good school would be pleased with high character, critical thinking and responsibility and low AP and SAT scores. I think there is more pressure for teachers to teach to those tests than the state or national ones.

I fully agree. Good AP/SAT scores benefit the prestige of the school (in terms of college placements) and a great benefit to the student (going on to college). Not sure the tangible benefits of standardized testings to the student besides monies for the school.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm not sure any parent of a good school would be pleased with high character, critical thinking and responsibility and low AP and SAT scores.

From a common sense standpoint, though, that's a particular link that's unlikely to happen.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So basically what you're saying is that a curriculum designed to meet a standardized test's requirements has few benefits from the standpoint of actual learning, right?

Eh, can't go that far exactly here. There is some value of some sort in the 900 or so terms that my child will have memorized in this year's AP World History class , at least assuming some of them stick beyond the test. I'd argue (as I did earlier) that the primary benefit in them is how they apply in the college environment ... but again, I believe the primary reason a lot of college courses exist is to pad the coffers of the education industry anyway.

But really the question you're asking above is backwards to what I see on the whole standardized testing issue. The test should be tailored to the curriculum, your question phrased it just the opposite.

If the curriculum is developed after the test then that's ass backwards* & should be changed with all due haste. If, however, the standardized test is developed after the curriculum then I have zero issue with the test as the indicator of competence/mastery.

In the case of common core, I believe the curriculum guidelines came first, at least best I could track the process that led to CC. Probably worth mentioning again here that I'm relatively lukewarm about the specifics of CC itself although that's really a separate issue from the whole "teaching to the test" thing.

I also believe one of the bigger disconnects that has occurred along the way is how far individual system curriculums had deviated over time from whatever standards the tests are meant to incorporate. I am NOT an advocate for local control in school systems, too many seem to be run by the lowest common denominator possible. A centralized set of norms suits me fine, the devil is in the detail of finding norms that I find acceptable.

*assuming of course that the development of the test wasn't intended as a de facto "curriculum" in & of itself.

[sterlingice]

So, are they getting the results - in relation to the monies being expended or otherwise? Are students doing better with English comp, math and science?

So basically what you're saying is that a curriculum designed to meet a standardized test's requirements has few benefits from the standpoint of actual learning, right?

What is "actual learning"? How do we measure "results" if there is no testing?

SI

[AENeuman]

Going to the OP, is this helping non-white students in your class, which I assume is the intended benefit of standardized curriculum?

Even when I was in school, we had standard tests (Iowa something) but I don't recall any time taken away to prep for the tests - it was all part of what was normally taught (3Rs). My son takes CCAP every year and since he is at an academically rigorous school, the tests are easy for all (thus they score the highest in the state). The biggest complaints are that they take too much time to administer and that time takes away from regular teachings.

That is getting to the original point of this tread, perhaps we need more segregation in schools. Students should not have their time (and our money) wasted with classroom instruction on known material/concepts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That is getting to the original point of this tread, perhaps we need more segregation in schools. Students should not have their time (and our money) wasted with classroom instruction on known material/concepts.

Of course you just committed modern cultural suicide by having the temerity to suggest such a thing.

Do you prefer lillies or roses?

[Coffee Warlord]

It's certainly not PC, but the trend of putting behavioral disorder children into gen ed isn't helping matters, either. Teachers are forced to spend an inordinate amount of time on a tiny percentage of their students, to the detriment of the the rest of the class. Sorry, but it's not fair to kids to be in the class with children who throw massive fits, ignore instructions, and constantly disrupt class.

If a teacher has to have an evacuation plan in the event one child in their class goes berserk, there's a serious problem. My wife had such a child, was forced to evacuate her kids more than once during the year. Her mother threatened legal action for if they dared move her precious snowflake out of general education. She got away with it for four years before the district finally amassed enough evidence to get her out of there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's certainly not PC, but the trend of putting behavioral disorder children into gen ed isn't helping matters, either.

Neither has social promotion or grade inflation or mainstreaming or any number of things that have occurred seemingly largely on the basis of avoiding the reality that not every child is an identically precious snowflake.

[Buccaneer]

Or should have equal results and rewards?

[Coffee Warlord]

Won't get any argument out of me on that point.

[flere-imsaho]

If, however, the standardized test is developed after the curriculum then I have zero issue with the test as the indicator of competence/mastery.

I'm with you on competence, but not on mastery. I don't believe any standardized test, especially if administered on a large scale, can adequately gauge mastery, due simply to its nature.

I am NOT an advocate for local control in school systems, too many seem to be run by the lowest common denominator possible.

And, as I've argued before, your view is skewed by your experience. The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012 - Page 197 - Front Office Football Central (http://www.osatwork.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2303252#post2303252)

I don't doubt your experiences, but my experiences have been opposite: attempted state and/or federal meddling in local school systems with which I've been associated (as a student or parent) have been to the detriment of what were already high-performing public schools.

What is "actual learning"? How do we measure "results" if there is no testing?

As I've said previously, I think standardized testing is perfectly for measuring results to determine a basic level of confidence. Past that? I don't know what the ideal method of measurement is. But it's demonstrably not standardized testing.

[Coffee Warlord]

In Ohio, 50 percent of our evaluation and therefore job security, is now student test scores. You can guarantee I will be teaching to the test despite having never done it before.

And woe to the teacher who gets a group of well below-level kids, who is doing their damndest just to get them to grade level. Or who gets a lot of kids who don't test well, for whatever reason. Or a majority of kids who don't speak English as their first language. Or are just in a shitty school with uninvolved parents.

They're tying evaluations / raises to test scores in many Illinois districts, starting next year. Ridiculous.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't imagine what lesser districts than the one I teach in are thinking.

Wait a second ... shouldn't the questions be the same for everyone, regardless of district? (or did I miss something somewhere?)

[JonInMiddleGA]

if you want kids who can think on their own

Honestly, that's well down my list compared to having ones that are capable of being self-supporting in today's economy. It seems quite possible to me that a more disturbing reality might be that average intelligence might not be the bar for that anymore.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They are. My point is I teach in a very good district and we are worried. Districts who are already worse off than we are have to look at things and know they have no chance of reaching where the bar is.

Totally my bad, misread what you actually said in the original post. Multi-tasking apparently not my thing today

[tarcone]

Im wondering what happens when even less qualified people choose to teach.

[cuervo72]

Even when I was in school, we had standard tests (Iowa something) but I don't recall any time taken away to prep for the tests - it was all part of what was normally taught (3Rs).

Heh, Iowa Tests. I actually scanned and posted one of mine a while ago when I was pissed off about...something. Can't remember.

We didn't do anything special for them that I can recall either. Of course, that was my perspective as a kid. My kids take the MSAs (Maryland School Assessments), which are a big stinkin' deal (but the emphasis is on the whole, rather than individual students; they don't even give you percentiles, just scores and where they fall vs the mean for your school, your county, and the state).

eta: right, the How Smart Are You? (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=84601) thread

[sterlingice]

And woe to the teacher who gets a group of well below-level kids, who is doing their damndest just to get them to grade level. Or who gets a lot of kids who don't test well, for whatever reason. Or a majority of kids who don't speak English as their first language. Or are just in a shitty school with uninvolved parents.

They're tying evaluations / raises to test scores in many Illinois districts, starting next year. Ridiculous.

Rightly or wrongly, this rhetoric was everywhere a few years ago: "We need a way to measure bad teachers so we can get rid of them!" And while I'm graded by my boss and boss's boss every year, every parent wanted to grade every teacher because it's was their tax money or because it was their precious snowflake. It's odd that we've seen a 180 on that so quickly.

SI

[sterlingice]

Sadly, my guess is the tests will be used to say education and teachers suck and will be contorted in a way to create a system where kids just sit in front of computers all day long attempting to be self-motivated enough to learn on their own. That way it will be cheap and teachers can be replaced.

Commodotize labor! Cheap, replaceable parts! No accountability because you can scope shrink so that it's not your fault or problem! I can't wait for the corporatization of education even more than it already is.

SI

[Izulde]

Yeah we're seeing a sizable exodus of talented college instructors as well, and more and more departments, at least in the humanities, are pushing their graduate students to pursue non-academic careers or at least non-university level teaching careers. Financially it makes no damn sense to get paid $20k a year without benefits or job security for a full-time adjunct teaching job when one can make double that or more with benefits and at least some security at the high school level. (Yes I know there's worlds of difference between the two levels, especially public school, but the point still remains).

Of course, those that stay in the arena have been quite vocal and active in trying to unionize and amass power to improve working conditions for contingent faculty, but progress is extremely slow. Hell, even now I tell my undergrads who ask that they really shouldn't go to a humanities doctoral program or law school unless they're fully prepared to accept employment crisis, including either unemployment or poverty-level underemployment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It will be the good ones who have other options, have nice education backgrounds with subject matter material, and a nice skill set to carry into other jobs.

I have to admit, this comment (especially the italicized part) made me think about something, almost disturbing really.

I started thinking about the faculty that I've paid rather dearly for my kid to be exposed to over the past few years. I'm not sure I believe even a quarter of them could survive outside academia. There's a few who could, a few who have even done so. Most? Honestly I just don't see it.

[nol]

I started thinking about the faculty that I've paid rather dearly for my kid to be exposed to over the past few years. I'm not sure I believe even a quarter of them could survive outside academia. There's a few who could, a few who have even done so. Most? Honestly I just don't see it.

Is this different from the realization once you hit middle school or so that an academically advanced student is likely already displaying more generalized intelligence than most people who become teachers?

[cuervo72]

Is this different from the realization once you hit middle school or so that an academically advanced student is likely already displaying more generalized intelligence than most people who become teachers?

Heh. This reminds me of an incident I had in 2nd grade. My teacher INSISTED that there were 34 cm in a foot -- because she was counting the mm past 30cm. Eventually I convinced her she was wrong, but it took a lot of arguing over multiple days to do it.

My daughter has her GS meetings in an art room at her old elementary school. My wife took her there the other day and reported that there was a big reminder sign on the wall - with a word obviously misspelled (I forget the word, but it was a facepalm moment). It's like...really? You're a teacher. You should get this right. And even if you don't, some other teacher should catch this. Never mind the handouts and notices that come home with misspellings, commas and apostrophes flying everywhere, etc. Though at least some of those can be chalked up to support staff.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is this different from the realization once you hit middle school or so that an academically advanced student is likely already displaying more generalized intelligence than most people who become teachers?

Yeah, I think so, because when I figured that out in MS myself (okay, in my case & situation, in elementary school... but I digress) I wasn't taking personality traits & such into account, only the apparent raw intellect.

I guess my observation there extends beyond just intelligence & factors in other stuff too.

[path12]

Heh. This reminds me of an incident I had in 2nd grade. My teacher INSISTED that there were 34 cm in a foot -- because she was counting the mm past 30cm. Eventually I convinced her she was wrong, but it took a lot of arguing over multiple days to do it.

I wrote a book review in 8th grade that I got an F on for being clearly lifted from somewhere else. It was not. I think that was right about the point where school lost me.

[Edward64]

Enjoy reading this thread. I know this topic has come up before and know I'm in the minority here.

There seems to be more negative vs pro commentary on the common core. But I believe if you don't measure/track you can't improve and I am for the common core (what other option is there to quantitatively measure progress?).

There was a recent survey sponsored by Gates Foundation that showed teachers are accepting the common core but also know there have be rebuttals to the contrary that the report was biased.

Teachers union cites Common Core in decision to cut Gates funding (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/11/teachers-union-cites-common-core-in-decision-to-cut-gates-funding/)
The American Federation of Teachers, which has won millions of dollars in grants from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, will no longer accept foundation money for its Innovation Fund. Union members have expressed concern about the poor implementation in many states of the Common Core State Standards, one of the initiatives in which the fund invests.

AFT President Randi Weingarten said at the recent SXSWedu conference in Austin that she would ask her executive council to approve a five-cent raise in dues to make up for the money that the nation’s second largest teachers union would have received from the Gates foundation for its Innovation Fund. The fund has invested not only in the Common Core standards but in expanding learning time, charter schools and other projects.

The Gates Foundation has awarded more than $5 million to the AFT Educational Foundation in the last five years, including a 36-month $4.4 million grant in June 2012 to support the Innovation Fund, teacher development and the Common Core State Standards, according to the Gates foundation Web site. The Gates Foundation also has awarded the AFT grant money for other purposes outside the Innovation Fund, and Weingarten said the AFT would still accept Gates money for other purposes.

Weingarten said at the conference that she had decided to stop taking Gates money for the Innovation Fund after talking with many union members, who have been unsettled by the implementation of the Common Core State Standards, which have been heavily supported by the Gates Foundation and Bill Gates for years.

Weingarten has supported the standards but called the implementation in recent years “far worse” than the rollout of the Obama administration’s problem-plagued health insurance Web site in the fall, and has called for a rethinking of the standards for the youngest students. Teachers have complained that they have not had enough time to learn the standards and create new materials to teach students, and some states have already given high-stakes standardized tests said to be aligned with the new standards.

My question is --

Has the teacher union/organizations proposed/support/pushed for an alternative that can quantitatively measures progress or lack off?

[path12]

Seeing the common core test questions for the first time I was really surprised and dismissive of the entire concept. After a week or so I'm starting to swing more towards the center -- I can understand the concept but it is so foreign to my middle/high school experiences in the 70's that it is jarring.

But after pondering I believe I'm starting to get what they are trying for. I still need to decide if I think it is the right approach though. Really not sure about that.

[Buccaneer]

Letter to the editor from an 8th grader is response to the testings

Tests have crushed students' hope

My name is Caroline Spence, and I am an eighth-grade student at Mountain Ridge Middle School. I have an opinion regarding the recent article about the resignation of Liberty High School teacher Pauline Hawkins. First of all, I would like to say that, contrary to popular belief, myself and many of my friends greatly enjoy and cherish education. However, the recent standards and tests that my fellow students and I have been bombarded with have crushed many of my dearest friends' hope of being a well-rounded, educated student. Society's and the government's stereotype that teens aren't good students is not only false - it is appalling. Every student that I know honestly wants to learn and honestly tries to achieve and do their best. The recent tests haven't improved our viewpoint on education or showed us where we need to improve. They have destroyed society's and even our respect for our generation.

I know many people who have fallen so far behind the curriculum of the recent standards that they have simply decided that there is no point in trying to learn anymore and don't do work in class or out - and no amount of pep-talking or yelling can make them pick up a pencil. These people are wonderful, amazing human beings who have been crushed academically by the cacophony of tests and regulations that we have been burdened with. I don't think that all tests should be revoked - quite the opposite - however the magnitude and the severity of these tests have crushed our individuality as a person and our hope in being an educated, wonderful person.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Letter to the editor from an 8th grader is response to the testings

In other words, we hate being held responsible for the material, hate having our shortcomings noted, hate not being patted on the head & told it's all gonna be okay.

[CraigSca]

Letter to the editor from an 8th grader is response to the testings


"...have crushed many of my dearest friends' hope of being a well-rounded, educated student"

"They have destroyed society's and even our respect for our generation."

"the magnitude and the severity of these tests have crushed our individuality as a person and our hope in being an educated, wonderful person."

"they have simply decided that there is no point in trying to learn anymore and don't do work in class or out - and no amount of pep-talking or yelling can make them pick up a pencil"

Wow. I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

[Buccaneer]

I know but it does provide a perspective from a student point of view.

[CraigSca]

Really, I've been in and out of this thread, so I'm not sure if a solution has been posted, but wasn't the entire concept of having standardized testing an offshoot of the miserable performance by our students (I think it was 10-15 years ago)?

So - if standardized testing doesn't work, what will? You can't just go back to the good old days because that wasn't working either.

[gstelmack]

The problem with common core, at least around here, is not common core itself, but the implementation. There are 2 specific problem areas:

1) There was no phase-in. So, kids show up in the next grade expected to have mastery of subjects they were not taught the year before. Teachers are playing catchup around here, which is making that first year or two difficult.

2) One idea I like in the common core is having different methods to teach topics. For example, I had to dig in to the various methods my daughter was taught to do multi-digit division, and they are all doing the same thing, but approaching it in different ways. I like the idea of having multiple tools available to the teacher to find the way that each student learns it best. The problem is that because we use the standardized tests to rate teachers, the students are quizzed on ALL methods. So we've gone from the good idea of "find a method that works for the student, because they aren't all going to understand the old method" to "make all the students learn all the ways". Given that the entire concept acknowledges that not all kids will understand each method, we have now created an environment that is doomed to failure.

I won't even get into how my third grader is spending so much time taking standardized tests (one or more per month throughout the year) that the teachers have little time to actually TEACH them anything.

[gstelmack]

Really, I've been in and out of this thread, so I'm not sure if a solution has been posted, but wasn't the entire concept of having standardized testing an offshoot of the miserable performance by our students (I think it was 10-15 years ago)?

So - if standardized testing doesn't work, what will? You can't just go back to the good old days because that wasn't working either.

Well, we could go back to holding kids accountable and not passing them on to the next grade when they haven't learned the material. The whole "self-esteem" movement that meant you couldn't fail kids led to that miserable performance - you had Florida graduating kids who couldn't read, for example. You have to fix parents excusing everything their kids do, and get them to hold the kids accountable, rather than using the schools as a glorified daycare service (bitching and moaning when there is a snow day, for example).

My father got out of teaching when the parents started getting mad at him for sending home failure warnings, when their kids weren't handing in ANY work at all.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Increased retention is not the answer. Research has proven retention to be fools gold, in most cases. Repeating the same grade will not magically render a child capable of mastering grade level content. Instructional differentiation, exposure to empirically validated interventions, and increased school/home collaboration are essential. Too often retention is used to mask ineffective instructional practices, lack of systemic support for underachieving students, the possible presence of school-age disabilities, and/or environmental/parental instability.

[AENeuman]

Tests have crushed students' hope

Every student that I know honestly wants to learn and honestly tries to achieve and do their best.

Vs.

I know many people who have fallen so far behind the curriculum of the recent standards that they have simply decided that there is no point in trying to learn anymore and don't do work in class or out - and no amount of pep-talking or yelling can make them pick up a pencil.



Ahh, the Victim-Generation, Perhaps when her parents were editing this they could have noticed this contradiction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Too often retention is used to mask ineffective instructional practices, lack of systemic support for underachieving students, the possible presence of school-age disabilities, and/or environmental/parental instability.

You sure you don't mean was instead of is? 'Cause best I can figure nothing short of an act of Congress will get a student held back these days.

[MrBug708]

My students (5th grade) finished taking the practice Smarter Balance test last week. I felt like the math is going to be rather difficult to master. I understand the ideas and concepts that they want the students to be able to master, but they need a systematic change to the way they teach in primary grades to be able to succeed, even in 5th grade. A side note, all of the things they are learning in 5th grade, most of it wasn't taught to me until I was in junior high, at I went to a fairly prestigious private school.

The performance assessment aspect of it, I liked the concept, but the first three questions were pointless. It could have just as easily been on the ELA part of the testing IMO and it should have used the time to help the students plan and write their essay.

I liked the ELA. I thought it is better than your standard ABCD scantron tests that we've seen for a long time. I'm curious to see the scoring and how students do perform, with the added elements being done on the computer.

All this being said, we'll get no test scores this year as the test was done just to "test the test".

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

You sure you don't mean was instead of is? 'Cause best I can figure nothing short of an act of Congress will get a student held back these days.

It might be a county specific thing because they employ it liberally in my neck of the woods.

[Galaxy]

Interesting piece from the NY Times:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/parental-involvement-is-overrated/?src=me&ref=general

[Marc Vaughan]

Interesting piece from the NY Times:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/parental-involvement-is-overrated/?src=me&ref=general

That piece appears worthless as its measuring 'parental involvement' - not what the actual involvement is, if its complaining that 'little Johnny shouldn't be expelled/told off for not doing his homework' then its wholly different than having a supportive background where they are actively encouraged to behave and apply themselves.

I know for a fact that parents can have a huge effect as my youngest son left to his own devices wouldn't ever do his homework or behave, but he is currently doing well at school and slowly learning self control and self motivation with some persistent nudging from myself and my wife ... in exactly the same manner that our other kids have.

I do however agree totally that spurious involvement of parents in school events and volunteering has no value at all from an educational standpoint.

It'd also be nice if they split 'homework help' down to where a parent obviously 'did' the homework for the kid or where they actively help them learn the subject ... again the two are totally different in terms of effect of the interaction (i.e. one encourages the kid to be lazy and do nothing, the other helps them succeed).

Finally the involvement of parents in non-school activities such as setting boundaries, socialising a child sensibly (ie. so they know how to behave) and also instilling a positive attitude towards education are 'involvement' which have a huge effect on a kids school career imho.

(end of griping ;) )

PS - Since when does the NYTimes post such a 'tripe' analysis and not at least link to the 'study' involved so people can determine if there is any critical basis for the article? .. very disappointing.

[larrymcg421]

PS - Since when does the NYTimes post such a 'tripe' analysis and not at least link to the 'study' involved so people can determine if there is any critical basis for the article? .. very disappointing.

It's an opinion piece, not a regular NYTimes article. Every newspaper posts opinion pieces and there are no requirements for the editorial author to prove their point.

[Buccaneer]

Here's an example of how a school can hold students and parents accountable. Whenever a student fails an assignment, quiz or test, my son's school sends out these emails:


Dear Parent,

This automated message is part of our approach to partner with you for your child's academic success. Our records indicate that your child, ****, has failing grades on the following assignments.

Honors European Lit & Comp -- ToTC Quiz: ch. 15-18
Latin II -- Chapter 4 Reading, lines 12 - end

We ask that you please sign into your parent portal account to find more detailed information. If you have any questions after reviewing these grades and discussing them with your child, please contact the teacher for clarification or to arrange a conference

Sincerely,
*********
Principal

Please do not respond directly to this email address as it is not checked on a regular basis. Please direct any questions to your child's teacher


For record, my son is getting a solid A in Latin and a B in English. I'll have to ask him about these two assignments.

[cuervo72]

Our school has something like that - I think the application is called Pinnacle. When grades change or dip we'll get a notice (sometimes teachers will add assignments into the system that account for points but aren't yet graded - so that new 0 of 100 will spit out a false flag). You can also log in at any time and see a list of all assignments and grades.

Of course, the parent actually has to be signed up in the system to receive any information...

[rowech]

Here's an example of how a school can hold students and parents accountable. Whenever a student fails an assignment, quiz or test, my son's school sends out these emails:



For record, my son is getting a solid A in Latin and a B in English. I'll have to ask him about these two assignments.

Sadly, the parents who probably needed these emails will not have Internet access for a variety of reasons more than likely -- also likely the schools can't afford such programs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

also likely the schools can't afford such programs.

They can't be too expensive, even the bottom feeding system where we used to live had that sort of setup several years ago.

[Buccaneer]

To make this work, the administrators have to set up a process to ensure all grades are entered electronically and they hold the teachers accountable to accuracy and completeness.

[Buccaneer]

Allow me to post one more letter

Being asked to do the impossible

I am writing in response a letter a while back titled "Teaching is no longer possible."

To back up what Kim Seiler has said, research shows that the number one indicator of a child's academic success is parental involvement. When you look at the numbers, which I will share below, it is not possible to close the gap that so many children today come to school with. Schools and teachers are being asked to do the impossible and without the understanding of knowledge of what they're truly up against, the public expects the impossible too.

Here is some of the data/research found in The Read Aloud Handbook by Jim Trelease.

A 4-year-old child from a professional family will have heard 45 million words, 26 million words in a working-class family, and 13 million words in a welfare family. All three of these children show up for kindergarten on the same day, but one will have heard 32 million fewer words. To close this gap, the teacher would have to speak 10 words a second for 900 hours. This language heard at home is one of the top indicators of success, along with books in the home and children being read aloud to.

While doctrine blames teachers for low reading scores, research shows that the seeds of reading and school success are sown in the home, long before a child ever arrives at school. In this specific study, found in Trelease's book, 21 classes of kindergartners were examined for children who displayed either high or low interest in books. Those students' home environments were then examined in detail. The numbers reinforce the adage "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." Therefore, you change the tree if you want different apples.

We're pushing children to read at younger and younger ages. There should be no rush to have a child reading at ages 4 and 5 but since our politicians are the ones making laws about Common Core and Standardized Testing, it's clear they aren't up on the research. Finland boasts the highest reading scores in the world and they don't teach children to read until age 7. They also do no standardized testing. They have 15 minutes of recess for every 45 minutes kids are in class. They have no national curriculum.

The United States is headed in the wrong direction, and fast. Teachers spend half of their time completing tasks that are not in the child's best interest. In fact, it's just the opposite. The amount of time and energy teachers spend on paperwork, standardized report cards, data, testing, meetings, evaluations, and so on, is out of control.

The public gets results from TCAP and statewide school ranking published online as well as awards schools receive. All of these things are deceiving. The public is told that your neighborhood school is not closing the gap between minority students and white students.

What they aren't told. that gap isn't closeable once the kids start school. Until something is done to change the families and the homes these low-performing kids are coming from, the schools won't make up that difference. The education in this country is based on history, not on research. We aren't doing what's best for kids, we're just doing what we've always done.

[molson]

Isn't the whole point of parenting and making a living to try to give your kids advantages? To me, it always seems like the vilification of this "gap" is in contrast with human nature. Or maybe I'm wrong - which good parent out there will stand up in the name of equality and stop being so darn involved in their kids' life? Or lets say by some miracle, the government somehow creates the equivalent of an involved quality parent for every child, maybe through more school funding or something. Will every parent who doesn't need the help agree not to help their kids' even a smidgen more and negate those gains?

[sterlingice]

Doesn't that letter basically say "the key indicator is parental involvement" and that's why kids are failing? Then it blasts the system for that problem.

I'm going back to a previous post (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2706050) I made on this: saying parental involvement is a problem is identifying a problem. However, it doesn't doesn't actually solve the problem nor does it mean there's no positive or negative effects from the results of how or what we teach. It feels like a silly rhetorical tool that is used for multiple purposes such as creating a built in scapegoat for why something will fails, an explanation of why any past plans have failed, and a reason for why a new idea will fail so we shouldn't even try it.

When I come into work on a Monday morning and am forced to address an ugly problem, I don't get to say "I didn't want to deal with this because it's a thorny issue that's partially outside of my control". Or if I do choose to do that, I accept the consequences of the currently bad system and outcomes from it. It seems like in this case, it's a way to ignore the problems with the current system.

SI

[Autumn]

I don't feel like anyone's telling involved parents to get less involved. Is someone? I think the point is that if we want to improve things it makes sense to focus our attention on the things that make the real difference. Spending years and millions of hours arguing about school curriculum doesn't make sense if what we really need to do is enrich a child's home environment. Do we have the same control over home environment? No. But we certainly have an impact on it as a society.

[molson]

I don't feel like anyone's telling involved parents to get less involved. Is someone? I think the point is that if we want to improve things it makes sense to focus our attention on the things that make the real difference. Spending years and millions of hours arguing about school curriculum doesn't make sense if what we really need to do is enrich a child's home environment. Do we have the same control over home environment? No. But we certainly have an impact on it as a society.

It's not literally the solution people are calling for, it's just strange to me that there's this push in the discussion to try to minimize advantages some kids have, when, it would seem like good parents will ALWAYS seek advantages for their kids. I commend good parents though for being in favor of policies and ideas that would push their own, well-parented kids, back to the relative pack. It just seems contrary to all their other efforts though.

[CraigSca]

So - let's generalize, just for kicks...

Test scores have been going down over the past x years, correct? That's what we're worried about, correct?

If the research above is true, then parental involvement has been falling the past x years as well, correct? Are Finland's parents more involved? If so, to heck with their curriculum and their x minutes of recess for every y minutes of instruction. That's just a feel-good story and America's love affair with the European mystique ("Click here for the Secret Why French Women Never Get Fat!").

If it IS a lack of parental involvement that has occurred over the years, ok then, why is that, and how do we change it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So - let's generalize, just for kicks...

Test scores have been going down over the past x years, correct? That's what we're worried about, correct?

If the research above is true, then parental involvement has been falling the past x years as well, correct? Are Finland's parents more involved? If so, to heck with their curriculum and their x minutes of recess for every y minutes of instruction. That's just a feel-good story and America's love affair with the European mystique ("Click here for the Secret Why French Women Never Get Fat!").

If it IS a lack of parental involvement that has occurred over the years, ok then, why is that, and how do we change it?

From a greatschools.org (whatever the hell that is) article -- the first link that showed up when searching "parental involvement Finland" --
“No, I think there is a far lower rate of parental involvement. We believe most learning should happen in school,” he said. “I think that parents feel the schools are so well prepared that it’s not a real priority. In general, parents do other things with their children — after-school activities, trips, community events."

[molson]

From a greatschools.org (whatever the hell that is) article -- the first link that showed up when searching "parental involvement Finland" --


“No, I think there is a far lower rate of parental involvement. We believe most learning should happen in school,” he said. “I think that parents feel the schools are so well prepared that it’s not a real priority. In general, parents do other things with their children — after-school activities, trips, community events."


I would think there's a correlation between parental involvement in those "other things" and school and life success though too. Though, I'm probably in the minority where the whole parents-having-their-teachers'-email-addresses-and-not-being-afraid-to-use-them-a-lot thing actually kind of freaks me out a little. School, to some extent, I think is a place where you should start that separation from your parents, and realize there's this whole other world and learn about accountability. Obviously, you don't have any REAL accountability as a kid yet, but it sure felt like a real game changer to suddenly have this whole other word separate from your parents that you had to perform in.

[cuervo72]

So...the desired outcome is for kids to hear more words before going to school, but not to actually read?

What if kids want to read before then? Take it up on their own? No no, Johnny. You'd better hold off on that book until you're seven!

[AENeuman]

I guess one could argue that Finland has a greater shard value system, thus less need to re-educate students.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So...the desired outcome is for kids to hear more words before going to school, but not to actually read?

What if kids want to read before then? Take it up on their own? No no, Johnny. You'd better hold off on that book until you're seven!

TBH, I lost any interest in that letter once I hit that part. That's someone we're all better served by having out of the education business afaic.

[Buccaneer]

Perhaps we need to create more of an environment and attitude as this great, young man?

Kwasi Enin, 8 for 8 in Ivy League admissions, selects Yale - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/us/new-york-student-selects-yale/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)


New York (CNN) -- And the winner is ... Yale.
That was the selection made Wednesday by Kwasi Enin, the New York high school student accepted by the eight Ivy League schools -- Harvard, Yale, Brown, Columbia, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth, Princeton and Cornell.
He made his pick in style, staging a news conference in the gym of William Floyd High School and delivering the big announcement before teachers and members of the media.
A visit to the New Haven, Connecticut, campus helped him decide.
"My Bull Dog Days experience last week was incredible," he said. "I met geniuses from all across the world. And everyone there was so friendly and inviting. ... And I believe that their deep appreciation and love for music, like I have, was very critical for me deciding to go there."
His father, Ebenezer, thanked all those at the high school who encouraged his son. "We are grateful for all the inspiration," he said.
"People think Kwasi is like an angel or somebody who was sheltered. Really, we gave him a lot of freedom, even though at the same time we were very strict with him in terms of academics and the way he behaved. ... We only pray that going forward he will stay focused and not be distracted."
Referring to Kwasi's 14-year-old sister, Adwoa, their father said: "I told her, Look, I believe you can do better than him."
Enin scored 2250 out of a possible 2400 on his SAT, placing him in the 98th percentile across the country, according to The College Board. He's also ranked 11th in his class at William Floyd High School, a public school on Long Island, according to his principal, Barbara Butler.
"I applied knowing that going to any of the Ivy League schools would be wonderful," Enin told CNN earlier this month. "I thought if I applied to all eight, I figured I'd get into one ... but from the first one onwards I said, 'This can't be happening!' I was shocked seeing all these acceptances under my name."
Multitalented teen gets 150 scholarships Meet the world's smartest kid Teen: Change font, save millions
Butler said Enin is not only a model academic student, but also plays three instruments for the chamber orchestra, sings in an a cappella group, throws shot put and discus for the high school's track and field team, participates in student government and has had a lead role in school plays since the ninth grade.
"Usually kids are good athletes or good musicians or good actors, but they don't have all three and then on top add student government. It's a balancing act. He somehow finds time to do it all and then volunteer at a local hospital," Butler said.
Butler has been Enin's principal for six years in both middle and high school.
"He is an incredibly modest, humble and respectable person," Butler said. "He is incredibly dedicated and he has his priorities straight. He takes advantage of whatever opportunity he is afforded."
Rachel Rubin, the founder of Spark Admissions in Massachusetts, who also previously served on admissions committees at selective universities, said the feat is extremely rare.
"It's quite atypical," Rubin said, adding that most students do not apply to all the Ivy League schools.
"Standardized test scores and good grades will get a student in the door to have their application read," Rubin said. "But it's their extracurricular activities, leadership experience, exceptional talents, recommendation letters and personal essays that will move a student from a pile of 'maybes' to a pile of 'accepted.' "
Harvard's acceptance rate, among the most selective in the country, was just 5.9% for the applicants for the class of 2017, according to its admissions site.
Enin was also accepted to Duke University and three State University of New York campuses.
Don't miss out on the conversation! Follow us on Twitter @CNNschools or on CNN Living on Facebook for the latest stories and to share your perspective.
Enin admitted all along that he favored Yale.
"I really liked their sense of family, relationships between undergraduates and professors, and the residential college," he said earlier this month. "They also have a strong biomedical engineering program, which is a wonderful combination of biology and creative tools that doctors and health care professionals can use."
Enin added that Yale also has a strong music program, one of his beloved hobbies that he hopes to continue when he isn't hitting the books in college.
He hopes to one day pursue medicine, a dream of his that just so happens to align with his parents' careers.
His parents, who immigrated from Ghana in the late 1980s, are both nurses and pushed Enin to receive the highest grades possible and follow his dreams.
"Health care is a prominent field that satisfies people beyond finances and edifies people and is about moral development," he said.
His advice for future applicants?
"Follow your passions in high school and not just follow suit for what you think can get you into these schools," he said. "Develop your outside interests -- not just academics."

[JonInMiddleGA]

"Health care is a prominent field that satisfies people beyond finances and edifies people and is about moral development," he said.

Hmm, reading that quote (italics mine for emphasis) perhaps this kid isn't nearly as smart as we've been led to believe.

[Buccaneer]

I come from a family of caregivers and it is a higher calling, imo.

[Marc Vaughan]

Hmm, reading that quote (italics mine for emphasis) perhaps this kid isn't nearly as smart as we've been led to believe.

I expect from the article that his parents are moral people and have brought him up to believe that because thats how they conduct themselves and their careers.

Within a field you can get good and bad - by the sounds of it, they're part of the good and have set that impression into their son.

PS - Intelligence has nothing to do with worldly experience my daughter is incredibly intelligent (far more so than myself) but is also fairly naive .. which is all this young man appears to suffer from.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I come from a family of caregivers and it is a higher calling, imo.

I've also watched the morality of those in the profession decline over time rather than develop in the positive sense.

Perhaps that's true with virtually all professions {shrug}.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Intelligence has nothing to do with worldly experience my daughter is incredibly intelligent (far more so than myself) but is also fairly naive .. which is all this young man appears to suffer from.

I'd argue that, at his age, if he genuinely believes what he said then he's either a f'n idiot OR thinks pretty much everyone else is.

(P.S. Marc, don't be quite so literal when reading me. "Smart" in my original comment there was used in a loose rather than strict sense, chosen for the attempt at ironic humor)

[flere-imsaho]

Perhaps that's true with virtually all professions {shrug}.

This seems more likely, Jon.

Though not as likely as the idea that you're simply getting more cynical with age. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

This seems more likely, Jon.

Though not as likely as the idea that you're simply getting more cynical with age. :D

I know this much: I hold politicians -- as a group -- in higher regard than I hold the medical profession as a group.

That's not a ringing endorsement.

[Buccaneer]

Getting more cynical with age?!? Say it ain't so! :)

[sterlingice]

I think there are a lot of people who think the end goal is more fulfilling.

However, working in a health care environment now and coming from different places, I see some of what Jon is saying. I think a significant number get into it for selfish reasons, be they egotistical (I think a lot of doctors do think they're 2 steps closer to God than the rest of us), economic (it's paying well right now), emotional (want to create a nurturing environment where I can play "mom"), or the just happenstance (they were looking for my skills and if a bank or sales company called offering 10% more, I'd leave).

SI

[Izulde]

Economics has a lot to do with it IMO. A ton of women I went to high school with have suddenly gone back to school for nursing the last 5-10 years because of the job availability and the income they can earn from it.

[AENeuman]

Interesting update. A huge number of high schools in nation now give a free and mandatory SAT/ACT test once a year to all juniors.

Not much change in scores. Biggest benefit is it makes it much easier it is for low income kids take it twice- greatly increasing their scores.

The worst thing is, this becomes a mandatory 4 hour exercise in making many students feel dumb and hopeless.



BTW thanks nol, it was fun to revisit this tread.

[nol]

Interesting update. A huge number of high schools in nation now give a free and mandatory SAT/ACT test once a year to all juniors.

Not much change in scores. Biggest benefit is it makes it much easier it is for low income kids take it twice- greatly increasing their scores.

The worst thing is, this becomes a mandatory 4 hour exercise in making many students feel dumb and hopeless.



BTW thanks nol, it was fun to revisit this tread.

Wow, so you're telling me that if you give less privileged students somewhat of a chance, some of them may prove they're pretty smart as well? Could've knocked me over with a feather.

You also seem to be unaware of how easily these standardized tests are gamed; it takes a bit more than 4 hours to do so, but with enough time (and money) it's trivial. You can check any of JonInMiddleGA's posts about his kid's academic experience, and as a former SAT/ACT tutor I can corroborate that it's child's play to get a mediocre student up to the 80th-90th percentile if their parents throw enough money at you.

[Edward64]

Wow, so you're telling me that if you give less privileged students somewhat of a chance, some of them may prove they're pretty smart as well? Could've knocked me over with a feather.

You also seem to be unaware of how easily these standardized tests are gamed; it takes a bit more than 4 hours to do so, but with enough time (and money) it's trivial. You can check any of JonInMiddleGA's posts about his kid's academic experience, and as a former SAT/ACT tutor I can corroborate that it's child's play to get a mediocre student up to the 80th-90th percentile if their parents throw enough money at you.

FWIW, my son took some one-on-one tutoring for the ACT (done remotely via Skype) and increased his score by 3 points. This was from borderline for some colleges he wanted to get into to comfortably within range. He told me some tips and tricks that he was taught so wealth/money/motivated parents are a factor.

However, I would not call it trivial. If the kid was not motivated to do it, even if given the money and opportunity, it wouldn't help. He spent alot of effort doing the prep.

[Edward64]

Not about race but about teacher pay. There seems to be a movement to strike with the success of WV teachers.

These teachers work up to 6 jobs. Now they're fed up and ready to walk out - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/us/oklahoma-teachers-profiles/index.html)
Oklahoma is among the bottom three states for teacher salaries, where educators often work about 10 years before reaching the $40,000 salary mark. And they haven't gotten a raise from the state in 10 years.

While educators nationwide have seen slight paycheck bumps over the past decade, when adjusted for inflation, teachers have actually lost 3% of their income from 2006 to 2016, according to the National Education Association.

Recently, the Oklahoma teachers' union called for $10,000 teacher raises, $5,000 raises for support staff and more than $200 million for education funding.

Lawmakers agreed on an average teacher raise of $6,100, $1,250 for support staff and a $50 million increase in education funding -- a measure Gov. Mary Fallin signed into law Thursday.

But many teachers say it's not enough. So on Monday, Troxell and thousands of other teachers will walk out -- prompting some schools to shut down indefinitely.

"We're at the end of the rope," Troxell said.

He's far from alone. Several teachers told CNN they're working multiple jobs in food delivery, retail, rideshare driving, restaurants and even surrogate pregnancy to pay the bills. Some now rely on a food bank to feed their own children.

[MrBug708]

Dang, 40k? Cost of living that low there?

[Galaril]

My wife is a 5th grade school teacher in a high risk school in Denver and is paid $46k. That is $5k more than others since she has a master degree. She actually has three Masters; one being an MBA and an undergrad for William and Mary. I tell her she could easily be running a school district but she feels a passion for teaching the kids. Luckily my career gives us the financial freedom to support her passion.
But yes it is pathetic how low all teachers are paid and also thought of. It reminds me of how the military fares.

[AENeuman]

Well... teachers only work 38 weeks. If they get a job for another 10 weeks and still a have 4 weeks of they probably earn closer to living wage... :popcorn:

Seriously, I think this is a solution. The school year needs to be at least 4 weeks longer. There is practically nothing else that contributes to the growing achievement gap than school “vacations”. Middle and rich kids get enrichment, poor get xbox and sibling babysitters.

[larrymcg421]

Well... teachers only work 38 weeks. If they get a job for another 10 weeks and still a have 4 weeks of they probably earn closer to living wage... :popcorn:

That's assuming they could find a temp job that pays at the same rate, which is unlikely. Also, while they work fewer total weeks, they work more than 40 hours a week. My teacher friends definitely work as many hours in a year as I do.

Seriously, I think this is a solution. The school year needs to be at least 4 weeks longer. There is practically nothing else that contributes to the growing achievement gap than school “vacations”. Middle and rich kids get enrichment, poor get xbox and sibling babysitters.

This wouldn't be a solution for teacher pay at all. There's zero chance state budgets would suddenly account for the extra amount of teacher pay that would be required. Even if I believed teachers would get a raise in this scenario, there's no way it would match the rate they already get and they'd still be ridiculously underpaid.

[BBT]

But yes it is pathetic how low all teachers are paid and also thought of. It reminds me of how the military fares.

Military gets paid much better if you're an officer or a non-commissioned officer (sergeant). We also got benefits that are much better than what teachers get for the most part.

Teachers are criminally underpaid.

[NobodyHere]

Just to play Devil's advocate, who here would want to see their taxes raised in order to pay teacher more? Who here would trust their local(state?) government to give the tax increases to teachers and not use some accounting trickery to give money to another interest?

[BBT]

I would pay more taxes to pay teachers better. I would also not trust my state government.

[BishopMVP]

Just to play Devil's advocate, who here would want to see their taxes raised in order to pay teacher more? Who here would trust their local(state?) government to give the tax increases to teachers and not use some accounting trickery to give money to another interest?Unfortunately is hasn't led to salary increases for coaches :p (probably because the few of us who aren't also teachers don't have a union), but... #3 Concord Public Schools
The average salary in 2016 was $95,732, up from $94,282 the year prior.

#2 Dover Public Schools
The average salary for district teachers in 2016 was $96,429, up from the previous year's average of $95,020.

#1 Carlisle Public Schools
The average salary for a full-time teacher in the district in 2016 was $100,803, a jump from the previous year's average of $91,182. The Town Meeting system of governance (and real estate values being heavily tied to school quality) works pretty well. Though Massachusetts as a whole also values education more than most - even the city of Boston, which has plenty of low-income residents, funds a year of free pre-K programs because of all the future benefits it gives.

[JPhillips]

Some of this is a conscious decision by GOP lawmakers to fuck teachers in the hope of destroying education unions. Unions are generally pro-Dem, so in some states the GOP is willing to fuck students in an effort to destroy teacher's political power.

[PilotMan]

Keep an eye on Kentucky tomorrow.

It's the 3rd to last day of the legislative session and after the pension plan was axed and buried in a Sewage bill that went from committee to the governors desk in 9 hours, Monday they are supposed to try and pass a funding bill for education that will likely push almost 30% of the cost onto the local school boards, and take away massive public support (like books) and put charter schools on the same playing field as public.

It's gonna be a national news story. Most of the school districts in the state have cancelled school. It's a combination of sick protests by the teachers and the massing of all education workers in Frankfort for protest on funding, et al.

It's going to be a shitshow of the highest order.

[Izulde]

Dang, 40k? Cost of living that low there?

$40k is starting wage for teachers here in Las Vegas.

[Barkeep49]

Well... teachers only work 38 weeks. If they get a job for another 10 weeks and still a have 4 weeks of they probably earn closer to living wage... :popcorn:

Seriously, I think this is a solution. The school year needs to be at least 4 weeks longer. There is practically nothing else that contributes to the growing achievement gap than school “vacations”. Middle and rich kids get enrichment, poor get xbox and sibling babysitters.

So I agree that students would benefit from more school days. The reality of it is that this would be a tough ask in most states, as in way beyond the budget, even if you didn't pay teachers a cent more. There are a lot of costs that a district incurs when they open the doors, transportation being a big one.

The better way from the research I've seen, which granted is a decade ago at this point, suggests year round schooling with the same number of days is a way to combat the summer learning loss, but that's as big an ask culturally as another month would be monetarily.

[ColtCrazy]

I taught for 19 years before I begrudgingly moved on to administration. I am enjoying the new role, and it's certainly given me a different insight on education as a whole. The contemptible view of teachers from admin, not to mention a portion of the public, is a major factor in how strong our education is. It's sad to see education on the such a low level of public perception. Low pay and no respect? Why would anyone want to do this job other than for a love of teaching? There are bad doctors, lawyers, maintenance workers, architects, etc. But it seems we are quick to point out the bad teachers rather than the vast majority of good ones.

That said, I know there's a big issue with the "summer slide". Yet, Indiana is pushing for a LONGER summer because summer businesses are being hurt. Our summer has slowly crept down to 2 months from 3, which I support. Next year, we start about 10 days later than usual and will have 2.5 months for summer. That's not a positive trend.

[stevew]

Pretty sure nobody at my wife’s school makes 40k other than the principal. I mean it’s Youngstown so you can get a starter home for 12,000 or so

[AENeuman]

So I agree that students would benefit from more school days. The reality of it is that this would be a tough ask in most states, as in way beyond the budget, even if you didn't pay teachers a cent more. There are a lot of costs that a district incurs when they open the doors, transportation being a big one.

The better way from the research I've seen, which granted is a decade ago at this point, suggests year round schooling with the same number of days is a way to combat the summer learning loss, but that's as big an ask culturally as another month would be monetarily.

Yep, never going to happen. I think the core issue is the failure to see the extra upfront cost as an investment. Massive money would be saved in the long run, but I guess no politician would ever get elected promoting long term savings over short term cuts.

[cougarfreak]

(null)
http://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article208881784.html

I swear, our governor is an ignorant human being. As an educator in Ky, he&rsquo;s flat out embarrassing.




Then there&rsquo;s this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/12/teacher-strikes-rightwing-secret-strategy-revealed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JPhillips]

If Bevins isn't advocating year-round schooling, I guess that makes him pro child molesters.

[PilotMan]

(null)
Bevin claims protesting teachers left children vulnerable to sexual predators | Lexington Herald Leader (http://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article208881784.html)

I swear, our governor is an ignorant human being. As an educator in Ky, he’s flat out embarrassing.




Then there’s this: Revealed: Secret rightwing strategy to discredit teacher strikes | Education | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/12/teacher-strikes-rightwing-secret-strategy-revealed)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

God, Bevin is a complete fucking tool. He's a big Trump wanabe. He's dying to get an invite to Washington DC. He gives no fucks about the long term of KY, he only wants that DC invite based on what he has said.

[AENeuman]

I'm on the committee to pick the next social studies textbook publisher. It's been 14 years. Observations:
1. Actual content of textbook is never mentioned, which is still same, brief and boring writing.
2. It's all about digital bells an whistles. You can easily teach their curriculum with ever having to teach.
3. All the textbook companies now only sell subscriptions to online and digital access. This makes it massively expensive for districts- trickle down from the very successful college model

I think we are at least 5 years away from being able to know how to best use digital information in most public classrooms.

Philosophically, we are still in the wilderness with social studies. It is clear that we still don't know what students should be getting out of these classes (6th to 12th grade). Is it critical reading/writing, actual historical knowledge, creating citizenship, developing basic reading and comprehension skills....

[cuervo72]

Philosophically, we are still in the wilderness with social studies. It is clear that we still don't know what students should be getting out of these classes (6th to 12th grade). Is it critical reading/writing, actual historical knowledge, creating citizenship, developing basic reading and comprehension skills....

My daughter takes the AP World History test this week, my son took it two years ago. I don't expect that either of them will be able to apply credits from the test to their college transcripts. I'm glad that they are getting some sense of the world around them and a general basis in history, but the primary benefits from the rigor of the course(s) as I see them are the reading/writing/comprehension skills. And to extend, the effect that having these skills will be useful 1) for future coursework and 2) for standardized testing (SAT).

Fairly or not, I regard AP World as being much more important for developing/having developed these skills than their English classes.

[Warhammer]

I'm on the committee to pick the next social studies textbook publisher. It's been 14 years. Observations:
1. Actual content of textbook is never mentioned, which is still same, brief and boring writing.
2. It's all about digital bells an whistles. You can easily teach their curriculum with ever having to teach.
3. All the textbook companies now only sell subscriptions to online and digital access. This makes it massively expensive for districts- trickle down from the very successful college model

I think we are at least 5 years away from being able to know how to best use digital information in most public classrooms.

Philosophically, we are still in the wilderness with social studies. It is clear that we still don't know what students should be getting out of these classes (6th to 12th grade). Is it critical reading/writing, actual historical knowledge, creating citizenship, developing basic reading and comprehension skills....

I think a lot of what ails us as a society stems from Civics not being a required course. It would make sense to roll that into US History.

[RainMaker]

Ohio taxpayers got royally fucked.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ecot-ohio-largest-online-charter-school-officially-closes/QTooP5B1yapQFlb5t8wLsJ/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/01/the-gops-biggest-charter-school-experiment-just-imploded/

[BishopMVP]

Who could've predicted an online only "charter school" for HS dropouts - who argued that they didn't have to monitor whether students accessed the material and merely offering it was enough - would ever have less than pristine motives and book keeping?!?

[Edward64]

FWIW our kids went/are going to South Forsyth. Pretty impressive for school in suburbia of GA I think.

https://www.forsythnews.com/local/education/forsyth-county-high-schools-among-top-15-percent-us-report-says/
Each of Forsyth County Schools’ high schools with senior classes rank in the top 15 percent in the country, according to U.S. News & World Report.

The Washington, D.C.-based company released its 2019 Best High Schools on Tuesday, a “comprehensive evaluation” of more than 17,000 schools across the country.

The company, along with RTI International, a global research firm, ranked schools for the 2016-17 school year based on their students’ college readiness, math and reading performance and proficiency, graduation rates, the performance of underserved students and the number of students who participated in and passed a variety of college-level exams, according to a press release.

Lambert High School led the way, ranking in the top 1 percent of schools in the country and sixth among Georgia schools thanks to a high graduation rate (99 percent) as well as proficiency in reading (89 percent) and mathematics (87 percent) and the number of students who passed at least one AP exam (87 percent.)

South Forsyth ranked 13th in Georgia, followed by West Forsyth (28th), Forsyth Central (52nd) and North Forsyth (63rd).
:
:
National ranking

Lambert 229

South Forsyth 383

West Forsyth 849

Forsyth Central 2,105

North Forsyth 2,417

out of 17,245

[JonInMiddleGA]

FWIW our kids went/are going to South Forsyth. Pretty impressive for school in suburbia of GA I think.

Let me be clear, I'm not kicking dirt on what the Forsyth schools accomplish with what I'm about to point out. Lambert's reputation around the state is very solid & seems well-deserved, and to know what all the schools there have done despite the challenges of rapid growth (I worked in the area before the population explosion, I know quite well what the area was like historically) is impressive and commendable.

However ... to cast it as simply "suburbia" undersells the situation a bit IMO. It's the county with the highest median household income in the state AND the lowest poverty rate. It ain't exactly your average suburb, certainly not in recent years.

https://www.forsythnews.com/local/education/forsyth-county-high-schools-among-top-15-percent-us-report-says/[/QUOTE]

[miked]

Wow, I had no idea about Forsyth, it's so far out there I had not considered it a suburb. All I hear around here is the greatness of East Cobb (Pope and Walton...looks like Walton is actually in Marietta) and Johns Creek schools, with a little bit of Decatur sprinkled in. Makes me thrilled about Lakeside and Dekalb.

[Edward64]

Wow, I had no idea about Forsyth, it's so far out there I had not considered it a suburb. All I hear around here is the greatness of East Cobb (Pope and Osborne) and Johns Creek schools, with a little bit of Decatur sprinkled in. Makes me thrilled about Lakeside and Dekalb.

20 miles north of the perimeter on GA-400. Not sure the definition of suburbia but I consider it one.

[QuikSand]

Maryland is considering stepping into this policy argument of "pay teachers a lot more," and it's pretty interesting. We're generally a high-income, fairly high-tax-rate state, and while we have more diversity than most would suspect, we are among the top tier in terms of spending and salaries. Used to be reliably rated #1 by Education Week, more recently #5-6 or so.

However, a recent Commission has set goals on global competitiveness, and one major foundation of their plan is to push average teacher salaries to $94,000 in today's dollars. The thinking is - let's change mindsets about teaching, let's get really promising high school juniors and college sophomores to think about teaching as a first choice, rather than feeling like engineering or finance is better on account of remuneration. Interesting arguments floating all around in this debate. The costs of their plan are roughly $4 billion per year - in a state with about 6 million people, that's a pretty hefty price tag... maybe a couple thousand dollars for a typical family.

Election year was 2018. 2020 is year two of a four year cycle, arguably the ideal time to launch a big initiative like this, especially if it's attached to tax increases. Popular republican governor while the state is still pretty deep blue, and who is at least eyeing a political future within the party.

Fun stuff.

[digamma]

My sister is a teacher in Forsyth County. They've been incredibly creative about letting her design a curriculum around STEAM topics. She's currently teaching an online game design course. Really cool stuff.

[miked]

The idea of better schools for my kids is great. The idea of commuting to well ITP from Forsyth is terrifying. No rail system, I bet it would be 1-1.5 hours each way.

[cuervo72]

The thinking is - let's change mindsets about teaching, let's get really promising high school juniors and college sophomores to think about teaching as a first choice, rather than feeling like engineering or finance is better on account of remuneration

How about middle-agers whenever they're ready for a second career?

(I had entertained the notion of at some point becoming a teacher, but wrote it off as an impossibility financially. Maybe someday it won't be -- if they're interested in new teachers in their 60s.)

[tarcone]

Teaching is a calling not a choice. Middle age people will struggle. It is nothing like anything they have ever faced.

its unfortunate that we pay teachers so little considering they deal with the countries greatest resource.
I hate that teaching is such an under appreciated profession.

[GrantDawg]

Middle age people will struggle. It is nothing like anything they have ever faced.




It may be for some, but not others. I have known several people that have retired from other industries to become teachers late in life, including some teachers I had in high school during the caveman days. My son's favorite teacher right now is someone who retired young and very well off, and is now teaching just because he loves it. He is a fantastic teacher, and is able to teach some great real-world lessons (he has a fantastic class on investing).

[tarcone]

It may be for some, but not others. I have known several people that have retired from other industries to become teachers late in life, including some teachers I had in high school during the caveman days. My son's favorite teacher right now is someone who retired young and very well off, and is now teaching just because he loves it. He is a fantastic teacher, and is able to teach some great real-world lessons (he has a fantastic class on investing).

Yes, you are right. Again, it is a calling and some realize it later than others.

My point, poorly stated, was that anyone just cant step into teaching. At any age.