The Death of Sports Text Sims (and imagining a better future) [Archive]

Young Drachma

06-27-2014, 12:13 PM

I had to leave when I was in mid-sentence. Basically, all of our games are increasingly clickfests. What would the future of these games look like in an mobile-first, tablet-centric world? Who has the time to play text sims anymore anyway?

I find even when I want to sit down and churn out seasons, it takes way too much planning and part of that is how I play but...even still, the games are often too slow and require too much TLC to really do anything other than fast-sim past seasons or to play too slowly.

So this is really about conversation of what we want text sims to look like in the future? Is there a world where, rather than writing dynasties, games can churn out HTML and other info quicker so we can report what we're doing to others who might care somewhat? Right now, it's just so slow and the games are not really adapted to anything other than crude online play or playing solo.

Surely I'm not the only one who has thought about this.

kcchief19

06-27-2014, 01:44 PM

I'll try to make my complex answer simple, but I think there are three key issues.

One is that graphic sims have resumed adding depth and realism that meets the needs and wants of the casual gamer. Madden isn't as deep as I want for a football sim, but it's as deep as about 90% of the gaming audience wants. Text sims have increasingly lost the casual gamers and text sims get deeper and more complex.

The second issue is demographics. I'd be interested in seeing some market research about text sim buyers, but my guess is that it is increasingly growing older and drawing fewer and fewer young buyers. The Text Sim Generation grew up in the '80s and '90s, loved the NFL Pro series and has always wanted a richer experience. I'm not sure younger gamers are looking for as deep an experience as more mature gamers are. Maybe that will change, but my observation is that consoles are holding consumers longer than ever. Once upon a time, you stopped playing consoles and switched to PC games or stopped playing altogether. That's changing.

The third issue to me is competition. Text sims are a PC genre, and with the emergence of Steam and other online distribution options as well as new game development, I think the PC genre as a whole is flourishing. I'm not a hard core PC gamer by any stretch -- I think I only own about 8 games on Steam -- but I've played less text sims and more other games the last few years.

I find even when I want to sit down and churn out seasons, it takes way too much planning and part of that is how I play but...even still, the games are often too slow and require too much TLC to really do anything other than fast-sim past seasons or to play too slowly.
Pulling this out because this is where I am with a lot of sims. I've tried several times to get into FM, but having to learn both soccer and the complexity of the game proves to much for me to overcome. I think OOTP is a great game, but there is so much to do in the game that it's not a casual game -- I need to play it regularly to keep up with the game or I forget who is on my team, who is good, what my strategy was, etc. That might be old age, but I think the depth of the game is an issue.

From a business perspective, that's probably a smart strategy. Text sims aren't going to attract casual gamers, only hardcore gamers. So build games for that hardcore niche audience. Not even casual gamers want a text sim for casual gamers, because they suck.

kcchief19

06-27-2014, 01:48 PM

Young Drachma

06-27-2014, 03:02 PM

korme

06-27-2014, 03:07 PM

Is OOTP Markus' only job? Does something like that provide for his entire finances?

Abe Sargent

06-27-2014, 03:27 PM

Unlike a lot of people here, I didn't play games like FPS or other Sierra game series with a sim esque thing. How did I get into text sims, via FOF? Simple!

I love Madden. Played it tons every year, and by far my favorite was playing career mode. Mentioned to some folks on the Madden Mania forum how I wish it was deeper in several key ways, and they suggested FOF to me. I had never heard of it, and checked it out. Guess what, they were right! And now, I love FOF too, in addition to Madden.

So, I came to text sims, not through traditional paths of increasingly more and more text-sim ish PC games but via console football games that people who also liked mentioned to me. A personal recommendation from people on a forum. That;s it.

Not the normal way.

I think there is a lot of unexplored real estate for that entry point for folks in the future. Come on in through Madden, or NCAA Football, or whatever. Just step right in, and take that career game you love so much, and let's push it!

And some of those folks begin to make their own games too, and add to the market with increased competition.

Fidatelo

06-27-2014, 03:29 PM

I think text sims need to stop making intricate tactical knowledge of the sport so important. Like KCChief19 I've tried a few times to get into FM, including currently with FM2014, but my lack of knowledge with regards to soccer tactics makes it almost impossible. I remember how excited I was for EHM:FE, only to suddenly need to understand what kind of power play and penalty kill formations my team should use. I guess that's neat for Scotty Bowman, but for as much hockey as I watch I've never *really* understood the systems beyond the very basics.

It's a frustrating limitation that doesn't need to exist. I can enjoy and succeed at Civ 5 without knowing anything about history or even really combat tactics. Hell I can play a game of NHL 14 or FIFA 14 very well without knowing shit all about the offensive and defensive systems my teams are using. Why can't I draft and sign players and manage a salary cap and fan interest without also having to know whether my star DM should be playing his opponent off his strong foot?

dcg12

06-27-2014, 03:30 PM

Is OOTP Markus' only job? Does something like that provide for his entire finances?

It is his only job (OOTP Developments which include the hockey game, the iPhone OOTP game and a boxing sim and a soon to be football game) and not only provides for him but all of these people

Photos from the company meetings this week - OOTP Developments Forums (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-15-general-discussions/245512-photos-company-meetings-week.html)

DaddyTorgo

06-27-2014, 03:38 PM

DaddyTorgo

06-27-2014, 03:39 PM

It is his only job (OOTP Developments which include the hockey game, the iPhone OOTP game and a boxing sim and a soon to be football game) and not only provides for him but all of these people

Photos from the company meetings this week - OOTP Developments Forums (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ootp-15-general-discussions/245512-photos-company-meetings-week.html)

That's a bunch of people!

OldGiants

06-27-2014, 03:46 PM

Text sims will go the way of board war games--essentially only played by old guys like me and our children who we raised on them. Or grandkids, perhaps.

Technology will transform gaming again and again. We are much closer to 3D sims on your living room floor than one might think. Also, 3D printers will transform the design and distribution of 'board' games in the next few years. I know bright and wealthy people who are working on these things right now.

The stats that drive OOTP, Fast Break and FOF will drive these types of sims, too, and will result in experiences that come close to matching our expectations. I'm a bit skeptical of FM evolving into a next generation game due to its game engine that relies on the 'faith based' dynamic of morale so heavily.

dawgfan

06-27-2014, 03:53 PM

I had to leave when I was in mid-sentence. Basically, all of our games are increasingly clickfests. What would the future of these games look like in an mobile-first, tablet-centric world? Who has the time to play text sims anymore anyway?
This is a great point. As the world keeps moving towards touch-screen interfaces and mobile computing, it will be interesting to see how this genre adapts. I have become increasingly aware of this as I play FBCB2 on my laptop - I'm constantly moving my mouse and clicking, and since I usually play this game when my kids are asleep and in a room with wood floors, I really notice the sound (and frequency) of the clicking.

As I contemplate moving on from my nearly 4-year old laptop to a new tablet (or laptop/tablet hybrid) I think about how cool it would be if the next version of FBCB were Win8 compatible, and how that would actually work.

I also find myself wondering if a text sim that has enough depth to it to interest me could work on a phone OS. I have the CollegeBBall sim app on my phone, and I quit playing it after one night - it's too clunky to navigate, yet isn't deep enough to be worth the effort.

Sports text sims have always been a niche market so far as I can tell. I'm not convinced the market for these types of games are shrinking, though I do acknowledge the ways in which console games have drawn in a certain amount of the sim crowd. I've played multiple versions of EA College Football on my Xboxes mainly for the sim aspect just to get my college football sim fix with TCY seemingly never getting a sequel. I even bought one of the EA College Baseball games mainly to play the sim.

The thing that has mostly limited console games from grabbing even more of a share of this limited niche is the interface issue - it's just not easy to design a deep sim that is fun to navigate via a controller. However I wonder if things like Kinect will open up consoles to a better sim interface experience? I've never had any interest in playing the Civ games on my consoles, but motion-sensing tech could potentially break down the interface barriers that make navigating sim games a chore on a console.

I suppose this is all a long-winded way of saying "I have no idea what the future of text-sims holds", though I suspect they still hold a market niche - especially as developers adapt their games to touchscreens. In some ways I think the future could be even brighter as the promise of one game/multiple access points becomes more feasible, i.e. your game lives on the cloud and you can play via console, PC, tablet or phone.

Solecismic

06-27-2014, 04:09 PM

I can safely say that I can't make the "traditional" text sim work any more. It wasn't until 1997 until PCs had the size to handle the numbers required for a text sim. I jumped on board fairly soon after Clay Dreslough did (inspired by what he did with Baseball Mogul).

It's been 16 years now. I've added a lot of depth over the years, but a basic UI idea that worked when FOF was a fraction of its current size and my customers were just happy to get off of DOS doesn't work today.

I think the days of the single developer are over. Markus has the right idea, pairing with a good artist and trying to bring several games into play. Markus also has the energy of 100 normal people (I'm at about 75 on a good day) for this kind of work.

I'm starting to look at other products. The "old" way, which is to provide some sort of wizard or basic option set, then hit start, turns off younger potential customers who never had to deal with the days when DOS kept things simple and ugly. I look at these sims and I can't get into them, either.

And then I try to get on Steam. Well, 16 years ago, based on about the same number of sales I've had so far with FOF7, FOF1 reached #66 on CGW's Hot 100. Every large publisher out there called me. Today, with 75 games every two weeks approved by Steam, FOF7 just sits there clinging to a wall like the unpopular girl at a high school dance. If there were a hot 10,000, maybe I'd make the list.

I don't know what the future holds, but I do know that I need graphics help and I will not publish another game until I have a solid idea of how to make the game relevant to younger customers.

I don't think I'm too old for this. I do, however, recognize that I have to have a better understanding of the new marketplace.

Autumn

06-27-2014, 05:02 PM

I think UI is am important part of this, for sure. As has been mentioned, the way these sims still resemble spreadsheets is increasingly dating them. A touch-centered interface, and an interface that is intuitive and interesting, is probably the key to getting gamers to get into these games or stick with them. I think I would have a lot of fun with a FOF-style game on the iPad, if there were levels of details where you could essentially pick a few basics and let the game go, or delve deeper into the nuts and bolts.

The other end of results reporting I think is also where we need to go. I don't think it needs to be high end graphics, but something that produces interesting and interactive and immersive results quickly, basically a version of Solevision for the mobile world. That's something text sims could do that Madden type games can't, becuase you're too busy visually with the actual game. But a text sim could be presenting the league results in a much more interesting fashion, I think.

JonInMiddleGA

06-27-2014, 05:23 PM

I think a fair question is: how much of the original base is left?

Which, I think, goes back to the o.p. to some pretty big extent. But as at least a medium-tier part of that base (in terms of games played, hours spent, etc), what's described as the possible next-gen / next-wave here would be of zero interest to me.

I'm okay with being an outlier, won't be the first time ... but I think the chase for new users decision(s) has to include an analysis of what part of the existing/remaining best is a) still around and b) would follow.

JonInMiddleGA

06-27-2014, 05:27 PM

Okay, hindsight says I prolly ought to clarify the "of zero interest to me" part of the comments I've read.

Mobile? Probably drops into negative interest. How the fuck does anyone even see well enough to play anything past Words With Friends on f'n mobile?

Tablet versions? I'm only slightly more interested in a tablet than I am in Kinect.

molson

06-27-2014, 05:38 PM

I felt like I was very much in the fringe playing text sims in the late 90s. Hasn't that group only grown with FM and OOTP? Obviously relative to the glut of games that comes out every week, that group is less relevant to things.

I believe what everyone says about the UI and mobile and touch screens but I'm with Jon on this one, I don't have any interest in any of that. In my perfect self-centered text game world, FOF would just get better every year. Expansion options, custom playoffs, better AI. I must be the only one in the world that still likes that spreadsheet format. I play single player career, slowly (I'm still on my first career since the game came out, and I'm 8 seasons in - and that's without calling any plays.) I don't spend a ton of time on it, but it's fun to jump in here and there, and sometimes when I do, I lose myself in going through all the league and player histories, looking to see how my old star WR who I had to cut is still in the league, etc.

Young Drachma

06-27-2014, 05:55 PM

Text sims will go the way of board war games--essentially only played by old guys like me and our children who we raised on them. Or grandkids, perhaps.

This is probably closer to the truth. Great discussion from everyone.

I think that rather than a mobile game like an app, though that'd be fine, I'm thinking responsive design. Something that generates the statistics and can play relatively quickly that doesn't always need to be controlled by a desktop application.

I think of all of the old ladies I see in my current job who you see playing candy crush and other tablet games on their phones and iPads on breaks (or during meetings) and I think that's basically us, in our own dorky ways. Surely those of us with desk jobs in the past or present, have at one time or another, installed a text sim if we had the access (or used a remote login to home) to be able to export or check something in-game.

It's good hearing the sorts of things people are wanting to see and I realize there's always going to be a sector of people who are perfectly fine the way things are, but I'm not convinced they're the norm and this isn't coming from a place of change for change's sake, as much as "I'd like to play more text sims, but getting older and shifting responsibilities make that more difficult to enjoy as many seasons as one would like..and surely there's a way to change that."

I felt like I was very much in the fringe playing text sims in the late 90s. Hasn't that group only grown with FM and OOTP? Obviously relative to the glut of games that comes out every week, that group is less relevant to things.

I believe what everyone says about the UI and mobile and touch screens but I'm with Jon on this one, I don't have any interest in any of that. In my perfect self-centered text game world, FOF would just get better every year. Expansion options, custom playoffs, better AI. I must be the only one in the world that still likes that spreadsheet format. I play single player career, slowly (I'm still on my first career since the game came out, and I'm 8 seasons in - and that's without calling any plays.) I don't spend a ton of time on it, but it's fun to jump in here and there, and sometimes when I do, I lose myself in going through all the league and player histories, looking to see how my old star WR who I had to cut is still in the league, etc.

I have a league in OOTP that's got over 200 seasons played, I've imported it into every version and it's fun, but...I sim quickly to build a history, then play along and mostly like to generate seasons fast. I certainly have no interest in playing out games, would rather sim faster. I think all games though have an element of tactical control for people which makes sense since you want to feel like your decisions are making a difference or else, it's just a stat generator, but it seems like with more tactical complexity, comes more of a click fest.

And as has been said, the UI issues are gross. It's hard to look at these games for any length of time save for OOTP which is a huge clickfest too.

mckerney

06-27-2014, 06:06 PM

I've hardly played any text sims lately, mostly just a little FM from time to time. If the genre moved to mobile or tablets I'd pretty much completely lose interest in it, I find trying to play games on a touch screen just a dreadful experience. I think I'm basically just waiting for a new football text sim as I haven't played one in a couple years, and although it's not the only thing I'd play I'd love one similar to FM.

Buccaneer

06-27-2014, 06:21 PM

Text sims used to be among my favorite games to play, specifically FBCB and OOTP. But I have not played either one in two years. Same thing with traditional hexed-based war games, as OldGiants brought up. I can't explain why but I hope it's not all due to iOS.

However, part of it could be that I am spending much less hours playing PC games than ever and such limited hours have been spent playing only Civ5, Skyrim and AC4. In the past, I would spend months playing text sims in addition to PC games but now it's just a few PC games.

flere-imsaho

06-27-2014, 06:29 PM

I feel SI have gone in the right direction by a) adding a stripped-down Classic Mode, b) removing some of the "old school text sim complexity" from parts of the game (like tactics) and c) (rumored) potentially doing away with hard numeric ratings to go with something more Plain English.

Classic Mode has allowed me to play FM again, as now a lot of the min-maxing is no longer available and I can get through games quicker without losing immersion.

Removing "sliders" from tactics has, IMO, been a good thing, getting away from an (IMO) "old school" text sim mentality of being able to calculate everything, to more simulating a game.

Of course, with these changes, is it still a text sim?

I'll also note that judging from the staff photos on SI's site, a number of their developers are under 30.

However, having said all that, I think it's safe to say that SI's a real outlier here.

cuervo72

06-27-2014, 06:34 PM

For a number of years I've only played FOF and OOTP in MP settings. I think I just get my fill of sports without text sims these days - I probably care a little less about them all in general (well, maybe not the NFL), and we're saturated with them now with ESPN, talk radio, the internet, etc. My MP involvement is more about some casual gaming within long-standing communities than hard-core competition.

As for other computer games, I easily fill my time with things like Minecraft and Civ, and previously (hopefully again in the future?) City of Heroes. Things that require a little bit of though and planning (yeah, I play on pansy levels with Civ) but I can largely do on auto-pilot, without having to process or store very much granular information.

Ajaxab

06-27-2014, 06:46 PM

As sports analytics become more and more common place and available, will they become an opportunity for text sim designers to attract people who want to figure out how these numbers work in decision making? I'm not sure. I still don't have any kind of grip on how many people care about stats like DVOA, PER, Zone Starts, etc.

Capital

06-27-2014, 07:09 PM

I've played less text based sports games than I did a decade ago but I still play them. I'm not sure this has been mentioned but it had been quite a long time since a previous version of FOF had been released. I have been with this site/game for over 15 years and I thought the game was all but dead.

Plus, the game was released near the end of football season. I know that my interest level, for all sports not just football, is at it's highest when the season starts. This is the first FOF version I had not bought since FOF1 because I was into other games at the time. However, football talk has been heating up and I'm getting ready for the season. I'll buy and start playing once training camp begins.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels that way, but I doubt it. Could things look a little better in the game, certainly, but a long layoff between releases didn't help.

SackAttack

06-27-2014, 07:17 PM

You know what would be neat? A version of FOF that integrated PC and mobile. I'm thinking multiplayer in this context.

So you're in an online league, and the commish sims the week's results. There would be a 'phone home' functionality in the game that would ping the FOF apps associated with the league to let them know that the sim was going on, and then you'd be able to watch the game play out graphically. Doing that on mobile as opposed to PS4, say, you wouldn't have to have graphics that could compete with Madden. You're not even playing so much as watching on the app, anyway.

There are other functions an app might be able to do, but that seems like it would be the easiest way to link the PC side of the game (where, as Jon points out, you really do need higher resolutions to make it work) while also increasing the game's visibility in the mobile space.

korme

06-27-2014, 09:18 PM

I don't know what the future holds, but I do know that I need graphics help and I will not publish another game until I have a solid idea of how to make the game relevant to younger customers.

One of the major things that appeals to me in OOTP is honestly their FaceGen and all of the modificating that comes with it. It sounds so silly to think a fake guy (or even a real one, rendered in) with a picture makes a difference, but it does. Putting a name to a face really enhances the immersion for me. It's that simple.

FOF, FBB, probably more fun games. But I open up OOTP nearly every day - the amount of ideas/options/variables I have at my disposal lets my imagination run wild.

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-27-2014, 10:05 PM

chinaski

06-27-2014, 10:09 PM

FM is showing the way for simulations. Heavy duty on the back with a clear 3D interface on the front. I'm shocked no one has moved in that direction with football, baseball, basketball, etc. That's where the future lies if you want to get there. If you don't have a graphical interface to go with the work behind the engine, you're not going to reach a mass market.

Yup, this 100%. Thats why I love Myfootballnow.com and funny enough, its was Jdavidbaker who created conscriptor, which led to him making myfootballnow. I love his field presentation and its incredibly deep in the coaching and gamplanning options.

tarcone

06-27-2014, 10:19 PM

I havent played any text sims since the new FOF came out. And I havent missed them. I have found myself playing more board games solo. In fact, unlike previous posters, I am getting into wargames now.
I started out playing board game text sims and am finding my way back to them.
Im not sure what would bring me back to computer text sims. But I really dont miss them.

Danny

06-27-2014, 10:24 PM

One problem is the price structure. People are not going to pay $40 for a text sim when you can get all kinds of stuff on steam for $5-$20

DaddyTorgo

06-27-2014, 10:33 PM

One problem is the price structure. People are not going to pay $40 for a text sim when you can get all kinds of stuff on steam for $5-$20

Eh - I don't have a problem dropping money on FM every year. It's all about how many hours of playing time you're going to get out of it.

But that all feeds back to depth of the engine (accuracy), the UIX, etc too.

Danny

06-27-2014, 10:35 PM

Eh - I don't have a problem dropping money on FM every year. It's all about how many hours of playing time you're going to get out of it.

But that all feeds back to depth of the engine (accuracy), the UIX, etc too.

Im not talking about people who are already into text sims. A casual person who might like football, but has never played a text sim is not going to drop $40 on FOF. if it was 9.99, they might go for it and see if they like it

nol

06-28-2014, 12:28 AM

It's a frustrating limitation that doesn't need to exist. I can enjoy and succeed at Civ 5 without knowing anything about history or even really combat tactics. Hell I can play a game of NHL 14 or FIFA 14 very well without knowing shit all about the offensive and defensive systems my teams are using. Why can't I draft and sign players and manage a salary cap and fan interest without also having to know whether my star DM should be playing his opponent off his strong foot?

That's what makes it a tough balance for a developer to strike. Dumb it down too much and you run the risk of people deciding they might as well play Madden/2K career mode.

Although, I'm not positive there is really that much potential for crossover between the two markets. On one hand, I'd assume a very small minority of players (like on the order of 10%) who purchase console sports games go more than 5 seasons into the career/dynasty mode. One the other, I too am someone who would list the learning curve as one of the reasons I haven't gotten an FM title (probably wouldn't list it first or second, but it'd get mentioned somewhere), but that being said, would still be much more likely to play FM than FIFA.

As far as complexity goes, the difference in recruiting between College Hoops 2k6 and 2k8 is my inflection point between "perfectly streamlined to the point where you can have it down to a science without it feeling dumb and boring" and "alright, but getting to be more of a chore than it's worth."

gstelmack

06-28-2014, 07:16 AM

I must be the only one in the world that still likes that spreadsheet format.

I'm fine with the spreadsheet format, but I think the nail was hit above with the comment about needing detailed intricate knowledge in FM to even get started.

FOF is the only recent text sim I've stuck with, in part because I just don't have the time to invest to learn a new UI, and my attempts to get in to FM got stymied by a lack of EPL understanding. Not just soccer tactics, but all the intricacies of the transfer market and what makes players happy. I at least understand the NFL free agency model.

I did play OOTP for a while, but I still never had a clue when I should bring someone up from the minors or send him back down, especially when the game itself would tell you the guy was ready to go up, you'd move him up, and it would immediately suggest you move him back down.

I tried to get some new blood in to FOF7 with an office league, but the newcomers needed a lot of hand-holding just to get their rosters set up for the very first sim. They didn't last long. For a basic example, how many players who don't read this board do you think know you can right-click a player to change their active status?

Now, we face the same issue in AAA game development - you can put all the features in you want, but in these days of "no one ever reads a manual", if you don't show them the feature and teach them it, they never find it. Sure, someone may stumble across it, figure it out, and put up a Youtube video, but only a small fraction of your players will find it. FIFA seems to take this route, I keep searching for Youtube videos to figure out all the new dribbling controls.

This is the biggest lesson text sim developers could learn from if they want to introduce a new generation - teach the player your game. Anyone remember the Dubious Quality blog post on changing text sims to a push model rather than a pull model? That's step 1. FOF7 took a step towards with its calendar, and I think the closest we've come was some of the Grey Dog releases like BBCF where you would be presented with a list of the actions you could take this sim, and checkboxes as you've done them. I wish FOF7's calendar had done that - links to the key actions for each stage of the calendar.

But you also need to teach and explain what each step means and what actions the player might consider. And not buried in a manual, or worse having to read the player file help to figure out what every attribute actually means in the game. Explain to the player what a bonus is and how it impacts the salary cap. Explain the attributes in detail. Explain what every option in the game does. Indicate which matter for this stage of the sim.

Don't leave the player guessing, let them focus on their decisions about what is important.

FOF7 has the nice dialogs when you go to cut a player, explaining the impact. It just needs a lot more of that. As does nearly every other sim. And I think the beauty is, if you focus on the functionality of the interface and how players should actually use it, I think you'll find the look-and-feel for modern players will take care of itself. If the screenshot shows explanations along with the correct options for that stage, players won't see a spreadsheety wall of text, they'll see game actions they can take.

No one reads a manual anymore, but that doesn't mean you can just skip writing the manual, it means you need to build it into the game and guide the player and teach them your game.

The other change in the market is that people like to game in smaller doses, even as little as 10 minute chunks. That's the rise of mobile. The beauty of text sims is you rarely have game levels that take 30 minutes to complete, that's why they translate so well to the web for multiplayer. So this isn't a big barrier.

So don't focus on a pretty UI, or changing the gameplay. Focus on teaching your player so they don't feel lost and overwhelmed when they first open the game.

That's how the text sim market will adapt (or die) in the current market.

gstelmack

06-28-2014, 07:21 AM

Dumb it down too much and you run the risk of people deciding they might as well play Madden/2K career mode.

This is the fun part of my comment above about AAA development - people think "attract the casual player" means "dumb the game down". It really means "make the game learnable". Sure, sometimes it means cutting out complicated features only the designer who came up with it can understand, but generally it means things like:

- Mirror existing control schemes, don't come up with new ones no one has ever understood before. The exception is when existing control schemes don't fit your game style and you need a breakthrough, with an example being the NHL series where they moved from button presses to right-stick to control your stick and shooting, which made a lot more sense for hockey once players got used to it.

- Teach the player the game, which I went through in more detail above.

It doesn't have to mean "dumb it down", but at times that seems like the easy route because now you have fewer features to implement.

corbes

06-28-2014, 08:21 AM

I've wondered about a push-style presentation of text sims that is more like a choose-your-own-adventure series of decision-making than like menu management. I'm not sure I know exactly what I mean by that, but it would involve seeing the manifestations rather than the raw ratings, or what you will.

JimboJ

06-28-2014, 08:47 AM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned iOOTP here. I haven't played it myself, since I don't have any i-devices, but I am eagerly awaiting the android version. That game would seem to be what everyone here is hinting at... a stripped down, more casual, cheaper game that can be played on a mobile device. I think the level of success of that game will tell us a lot about the future of text sims.

gstelmack

06-28-2014, 09:13 AM

I tried iOOTP, the biggest issue was lag in the UI. Press a button, no response, keep jamming it, all of a sudden it advances. That drove me nuts and I stopped. Otherwise, the UI was decent with key info, but information was limited on each screen so there was a lot of back-and-forth.

Mizzou B-ball fan

06-28-2014, 09:46 AM

Im not talking about people who are already into text sims. A casual person who might like football, but has never played a text sim is not going to drop $40 on FOF. if it was 9.99, they might go for it and see if they like it

FM blows this mold out of the water. People will pay $40 on FOF without blinking if it had everything it currently has under the hood AND a 3D graphics interface. The market is there, but the games have to reach that point. I play FM non-stop because it's exactly what I want in a sports text sim and none of the American sports have something that mirrors that interface. If there was a baseball/football/basketball/college equivalent, I'd be spending a bigger amount of time on that game.

Danny

06-28-2014, 07:08 PM

FM blows this mold out of the water. People will pay $40 on FOF without blinking if it had everything it currently has under the hood AND a 3D graphics interface. The market is there, but the games have to reach that point. I play FM non-stop because it's exactly what I want in a sports text sim and none of the American sports have something that mirrors that interface. If there was a baseball/football/basketball/college equivalent, I'd be spending a bigger amount of time on that game.

One example, but FM is an established name that has been built over many years. And is of a sport with a much larger world wide fan base than American football. Other games have to build a brand and one way to do that is to undercharge for the first couple releases

mckerney

06-28-2014, 07:16 PM

One example, but FM is an established name that has been built over many years. And is of a sport with a much larger world wide fan base than American football. Other games have to build a brand and one way to do that is to undercharge for the first couple releases while building a brand.

To build that brand I think games might be better off with a higher base price and hoping the draw attention to a new audience with sales. Then the diehard fans can pay $30 to $40 when the game launches and to someone who would be new to the series $10 with 75% off next to it as a limited time offer is more likely to get them to buy than just a $10 price tag.

Danny

06-28-2014, 07:19 PM

To build that brand I think games might be better off with a higher base price and hoping the draw attention to a new audience with sales. Then the diehard fans can pay $30 to $40 when the game launches and to someone who would be new to the series $10 with 75% off next to it as a limited time offer is more likely to get them to buy than just a $10 price tag.

Yeah that would be a fine idea, but companies don't do that. When Wolverine or Grey Dog has a sale, it's 10% off, plus they aren't on steam or other big user sites. 10% off isn't going to get someone to even blink

mckerney

06-28-2014, 07:21 PM

Yeah that would be a fine idea, but companies don't do that. When Wolverine or Grey Dog has a sale, it's 10% off, plus they aren't on steam or other big user sites. 10% off isn't going to get someone to even blink

Yeah, visibility of the sale is certainly an issue. A sale that's running only on Grey Dogs site probably won't get the visibility to make a 75% off sale worthwhile. I have checked out what Grey Dog has to offer the last couple of times I saw they had a sale even though it hasn't been that much, but then I realize they're still using eLicense and remember why I never buy anything from them.

Grim.Reaper

06-28-2014, 07:45 PM

Yeah that would be a fine idea, but companies don't do that. When Wolverine or Grey Dog has a sale, it's 10% off, plus they aren't on steam or other big user sites. 10% off isn't going to get someone to even blink

I was thinking the same thing.... a game that is regularly $40, you get a whopping $4 off....that is nothing.....who would wait to buy a game until they could get it $4 cheaper? Nobody would......these people would pay the full $40 to get to play it sooner....they wouldn't wait 10 months to play a game they like just because a whole $4 cheaper.

Those types of sales are laughable.....I understand these are niche games and the developers have to balance profits so a difficult situation.

Speaking of text sims dying, I haven't been able to access the OOTP web site all day....is it just me or did that web site die?

JonInMiddleGA

06-28-2014, 08:01 PM

- Mirror existing control schemes, don't come up with new ones no one has ever understood before.

This. About a hundred million times this. Aside from the whole text-sim discussion, that is pretty much THE number one reason I don't switch between games more frequently than I do. Make all the jokes you like about my mental abilities in old age, that's fine, but the reality is that I don't want or need the stress of figuring out which button does what every single time I switch. The standup comic bit about "not toggle maps you idiot" comes to mind.

The exception is when existing control schemes don't fit your game style and you need a breakthrough, with an example being the NHL series where they moved from button presses to right-stick to control your stick and shooting, which made a lot more sense for hockey once players got used to it.

Ah yes, the change that pretty much ended me playing hockey games (although, IIRC, you could at least at one point still use the traditional control scheme)

JonInMiddleGA

06-28-2014, 08:05 PM

I think the closest we've come was some of the Grey Dog releases like BBCF where you would be presented with a list of the actions you could take this sim, and checkboxes as you've done them.

Like NBA 2k14's off season sequence?

The other change in the market is that people like to game in smaller doses, even as little as 10 minute chunks.

Really? People actually do that, aside from Facebook games?

I'm not busting your chops here, that's just so completely the antithesis of how I game (and, really, how anyone who I know that's "a gamer" games) that it eludes me.

Julio Riddols

06-28-2014, 08:09 PM

I feel like FOF would be more accessible to new players if it had a tutorial mode and the calendar was replaced with a clickable checklist of things to do for every stage of the game. Maybe a face gen would be a nice addition as well, but I don't know how easy that would be.

Illini Boy

06-28-2014, 09:30 PM

Just curious, can anyone think of anyone under 30 developing text sims right now? I think all the text sims I play an follow are from developers who have been at this for 10 years or more and I'm certain are in the 30s and 40s now -- and as a result are making games for people in their 30s and 40s.

Maybe there needs to be a 24-year-old text sim designer to deliver the next evolution. Personally, I think sims have become as complicated as they need to be and now it's all about improving the AI and dynamic nature of the games. But somebody 20 years younger than me may see something I don't see.

To your question regarding text-sim developers and age, I am nineteen and currently in the process of developing an online college basketball text-sim (think WhatIfSports College Basketball with the ability to go either extremely technical or go all FM classical mode with your playing experience). Many of my professors have never heard of text-sims, or they say they love the idea of a text-sim game as it reminds them of growing up and listening to basketball games while trying to memorize stats on a player card. A lot of my classmates simply do not know the genre exists. FM is extremely successful because it is an established brand (much like WhatIfSports). However, FOF and FBCB do not have that massive brand, thus their market is relativity small. In the plethora of PC games being created now a days, text-sims need something to get people's attention. "New-age" text developers will have to think of an idea to have their game stand out and be known. The idea of text-sims developers coming together to try and advertise their industry is a far-fetched, but possible idea. I started coming around FOFC and playing text-sims with I was around ten. I always knew a nonathletic, white guy like myself would never play professional sports, so I dreamed about being a general manager instead which led me to text-sims. That is not typical for a kid my age unfortunately. Personally, the online aspect of text-sims has greater potential as society moves more into the social media and everybody is connected age. Why play against hundreds of AI's when you can play (and talk trash) to hundreds of actual competitors. Combine that with more graphics, a quick, easy UI, and the ability to work with mobile/tablets and success may be found. But who knows without any research?

corbes

06-28-2014, 09:49 PM

Do kids still play endless hours of solo wiffeball in their own yard whilst playing out imaginary sports league seasons in their own heads and keeping track of the "results"?

tarcone

06-28-2014, 10:30 PM

Do kids still play endless hours of solo wiffeball in their own yard whilst playing out imaginary sports league seasons in their own heads and keeping track of the "results"?

I think there is an app for that.

MikeVic

06-29-2014, 10:07 AM

I really enjoyed iOOTP and FM hand held or whatever that version is called. I tried FM on computer and was overwhelmed by it. Same with OOTP.

Is it true that FM classic mode would maybe play as simplistic as the hand held version?

Sebastian Palkowski

06-29-2014, 10:14 AM

By any chance, do you have the Home-Button of your device on the left side? If yes (if you still have the App), could you try again with changing the direction of the device so the Home Button is on the right side and see, if that improves the button responsibility?

Thanks!

I tried iOOTP, the biggest issue was lag in the UI. Press a button, no response, keep jamming it, all of a sudden it advances. That drove me nuts and I stopped. Otherwise, the UI was decent with key info, but information was limited on each screen so there was a lot of back-and-forth.

Abe Sargent

06-29-2014, 11:23 AM

Do kids still play endless hours of solo wiffeball in their own yard whilst playing out imaginary sports league seasons in their own heads and keeping track of the "results"?

I've never even heard of that until this post. Maybe it's just you? ;)

gstelmack

06-29-2014, 03:27 PM

Do kids still play endless hours of solo wiffeball in their own yard whilst playing out imaginary sports league seasons in their own heads and keeping track of the "results"?

Not wiffleball, but I can promise that my son has done and still does exactly this with both basketball and soccer. He also used his matchbox cars (until he finally outgrew them about 6 months ago) to run entire seasons of NASCAR. We have pages and pages of results tables around here somewhere still.

cuervo72

06-29-2014, 10:14 PM

For a basic example, how many players who don't read this board do you think know you can right-click a player to change their active status?

Wait...what?

Marc Vaughan

06-29-2014, 11:31 PM

Is it true that FM classic mode would maybe play as simplistic as the hand held version?

Classic is 'full-fat' FM slimmed down a little, its far less complicated than full-fat but not as forgiving/handholding for a new comer as FMH.

Marc Vaughan

06-29-2014, 11:38 PM

However, FOF and FBCB do not have that massive brand, thus their market is relativity small. In the plethora of PC games being created now a days, text-sims need something to get people's attention. "New-age" text developers will have to think of an idea to have their game stand out and be known.
I disagree that people need to think of a 'new' idea - what you need to break into the mainstream release a product with consistent quality and decent presentation with some reasonable PR.

OOTP have been doing this and are slowly building their fanbase and influence in a similar manner to how SI/CM/FM did in our early days which is awesome to see :D

I think that others can follow suit in their wake in perhaps an easier way once they break into the mainstream (they're still a 'way' off from that but it'll happen at some point I'm certain).

Personally, the online aspect of text-sims has greater potential as society moves more into the social media and everybody is connected age. Why play against hundreds of AI's when you can play (and talk trash) to hundreds of actual competitors. Combine that with more graphics, a quick, easy UI, and the ability to work with mobile/tablets and success may be found. But who knows without any research?
Online text-sims have their own unique set of issues and problems - if you want to discuss them then by all means drop me a line, I've been through the mill a few times in this regard and might be able to help you avoid falling into some of the more obvious pits.

It might also be worthwhile you reading up on "Football Manager Online" if you're serious about developing your own sim (it'll require you to persevere a little though as its a Korean only title* - Online gaming in Korea is huge).

*Not 'live' yet although several public beta's have been run, it'll go live later this year.

Danny

06-29-2014, 11:44 PM

I'd still likely get hooked on a text sim if something new and fresh came out for one of my two favorite sports (Football and Hockey). FOF is a great game, but I lost interest after playing it a bit as it's just more of the same.

An FM style game for Football or Hockey I would love. Shame EHM folded before really getting good.

Mota

06-30-2014, 01:19 PM

Im not talking about people who are already into text sims. A casual person who might like football, but has never played a text sim is not going to drop $40 on FOF. if it was 9.99, they might go for it and see if they like it

Paradox have been big proponents of multiple price points and embracing the Steam "sale" model.

They have said there isn't a single price point that is right. Everybody has a different price point, and coordinating the launch and cycles of the product lifecycle lets them reach as many of these different customers as possible.

Mota

06-30-2014, 01:28 PM

I disagree that people need to think of a 'new' idea - what you need to break into the mainstream release a product with consistent quality and decent presentation with some reasonable PR.

A lot of hype is in releasing a yearly product as well, I believe. Look at the most successful "text" sims, OOTP and FM, they both release their games on a yearly cycle, and start the hype engine a few months before this to get people excited. We're programmed to want the games.

Also I think new devs should try to shed the "text" from text sims. Look at the successful games, the ratio of graphics / text is changing a lot. These products present themselves quite nicely and are attractive. It's not a wall of text like it used to be. The moment I say text sim, most people are instantly tuning out because of the picture it paints in their mind.

I do think that graphics are necessary in order to be successful now. Facegen is really cool. Even just X's and O's moving around on a screen to depict the results of a play would mean a lot. As the Madden's add more depth to their simulation, it's also really important for the sim guys to be adding more to their games and keep possession of their own slice before they get totally eaten up.

flere-imsaho

07-01-2014, 10:35 AM

Classic is 'full-fat' FM slimmed down a little, its far less complicated than full-fat but not as forgiving/handholding for a new comer as FMH.

:+1:

To me, having played both, I'd say that FM Classic still requires that you have at least a passing knowledge of soccer, while you could play FM Handheld and enjoy it if you only heard of soccer starting with this year's World Cup.

Karim

07-01-2014, 10:59 AM

flere-imsaho

07-01-2014, 11:42 AM

What FM is missing is a true "General Manager" mode, but that doesn't seem to be a real position in soccer. Rather than have to come up with match plans, why can't I let a "Head Coach" do this and I just work on getting the right players into the squad?

Not having this means you have to be the Manager which means even in FM Classic, you need to understand tactics.

I don't disagree, but what I would say is that FMC, while requiring a lot less knowledge than FM, still requires, for instance, at least a basic understanding of tactics. In FMH, on the other hand, you should be able to enjoy yourself just fine without knowing tactics (as long as you don't do something that's obviously not going to work).

Young Drachma

07-01-2014, 12:17 PM

What FM is missing is a true "General Manager" mode, but that doesn't seem to be a real position in soccer. Rather than have to come up with match plans, why can't I let a "Head Coach" do this and I just work on getting the right players into the squad?

Not having this means you have to be the Manager which means even in FM Classic, you need to understand tactics.

Same. I'd love to be able to just hire a coach and fire a coach. Just let me be team president or owner or whatever, let me manage at a high level and be done with it. I don't care about tactics, though I do like having the ability to find out what schemes they're running, etc.

I think having preset tactics that you can preload helps A TON. Single handedly the most underrated addition to OOTP this year were the manager profiles that were added after years of that feature sort of going to waste since most people do not have the time to bother with such shenanigans.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

07-01-2014, 01:00 PM

Death of text sports sims?

I am not so sure...

Let's do a comparison of active text sport sims and console games:

Console Football: Madden , NCAA Football(2)
Text Sim football:Front office football/second and ten/action pc football/pro strategy football/pro football simulator (5)

Console baseball: MLB Show (1)
Text Sim baseball: OOTP/puresim/baseball mogul/action pc baseball/strat-o-matic (5)

Console Basketball: Nba 2k/Nba Live (2)
Text sim basketball: Fast break basketball/fast break college basketball/draft day sports basketball/draft day sports college basketball/action pc basketball (5)

This is far from a complete list, so I wouldn't go so far to say the text sim market is thriving, but clearly it is far from dying. Each sport (I don't pay attention to hockey or soccer) has multiple options and more options than consoles. Now whether you like the games, well that is a different story :)