FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Subby]

Ferguson, Missouri (CNN) -- The FBI has officially opened an investigation into the shooting of a teenager by a police officer in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri, a U.S. law enforcement official tells CNN.

Federal investigators are joining the U.S. Department of Justice in assisting local authorities to garner the facts surrounding the killing of 18-year-old Michael Brown, who was shot Saturday night.

Tensions have been high in the town of 21,000. Dozens took the streets Monday to march and chant, "No justice, no peace!" A vigil for the teen devolved into chaos Sunday when violence and looting broke out among protesters.

Witnesses to Brown's shooting said he had been unarmed and had his hands in the air.

More (http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html)

[Subby]

Pretty great twitter hashtag has sprung up from this called #iftheygunnedmedown (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23iftheygunnedmedown). It exposes the different ways we view victims/criminals based on the images served to us by the media.

[Lathum]

Regardless of who the blame lies with the actions of the protesters last night is inexcusable. Does more harm then good. I read during the riots/ looting they ripped an ATM machine from a gas station. How exactly does that show support for any cause?

[sterlingice]

Doesn't that assume that everyone in a crowd is a protester? I'm going to assume that there are just some folks wanting to cause trouble, too.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let's just hope it's a fair investigation rather than one with a predetermined outcome.

[NobodyHere]

Let's just hope it's a fair investigation rather than one with a predetermined outcome.

You're right. I hope the investigation doesn't pretend that cops are above the law.

[Subby]

People do crazy shit when they are feeling angry/scared/marginalized.

As observers I think we have to be smart enough to not let the protests tinge our view of the tragedy that fueled them.

[DaddyTorgo]

Let's just hope it's a fair investigation rather than one with a predetermined outcome.

It's funny how if you didn't know Jon you could read this one way, but if you do know him you read it 180 degrees the other way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You're right. I hope the investigation doesn't pretend that cops are above the law.

Election season coming up, a "Justice" department under the watchful eye of the current administration ... yeah, I don't think there's much chance that law & order will be getting the benefit of the doubt on much on this one.

[QuikSand]

Well, my "under" bet has already lost out. Thread still alive, and not really even a tire fire yet...who knew?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, my "under" bet has already lost out. Thread still alive, and not really even a tire fire yet...who knew?

Might want to keep an eye on the ATM machine.

[RainMaker]

Regardless of who the blame lies with the actions of the protesters last night is inexcusable. Does more harm then good. I read during the riots/ looting they ripped an ATM machine from a gas station. How exactly does that show support for any cause?

Odd how fast "protesting" turns into "give me free stuff" in certain communities.

[tarcone]

I was just listening to the radio, and they were talking about a resident on the TV being interviewed. He was saying it is a model community with the diversity it has. He said he didnt recognize any of the looters.
The talking heads then proceeded to talk about how much the community has improved in the last 10 years.

[lighthousekeeper]

As observers I think we have to be smart enough to not let the protests tinge our view of the tragedy that fueled them.

Why? Why do we have to be anything? What does our personal view of the tragedy matter at all?

[Subby]

Why? Why do we have to be anything? What does our personal view of the tragedy matter at all?
That's a philosophical question to which I don't really have an answer. I suppose I'm just trying to understand why this happened. I want to take meaning from it. I want others to understand and take meaning from it so it won't happen again. My concern about Lathum's comment is that people will focus on ancillary events like the protests/riots/looting and lose sight of the tragedy of what happened. Doing that keeps us from reaching a solution. I don't know. That's all I have.

[lighthousekeeper]

I want others to understand and take meaning from it so it won't happen again.

Good luck with that.

[Lathum]

My concern about Lathum's comment is that people will focus on ancillary events like the protests/riots/looting and lose sight of the tragedy of what happened. Doing that keeps us from reaching a solution. I don't know. That's all I have.

I don't think anyone is denying or losing sight of the tragedy, but the tragedy and the way the community acts are tied together. If the kid was a part of a community that just showed the capacity to become violent very quickly, then the perception is, as a part of that community, the kid has that capacity.

Not saying it is my opinion or how I feel. Regardless, I stand by my comments that it is inexcusable to ac that way. Did some come looking for trouble, most certainly, but there are likely many others who went to protest and got caught up in the mob mentality, and I think that is going to hurt the cause of this young man in the long run.

[NobodyHere]

I was just listening to the radio, and they were talking about a resident on the TV being interviewed. He was saying it is a model community with the diversity it has. He said he didnt recognize any of the looters.
The talking heads then proceeded to talk about how much the community has improved in the last 10 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI was doing some COINTELPRO shit again.

[RainMaker]

We don't know what is and isn't a tragedy yet. We know that innocent business owners who had their places destroyed are victims in this tragedy. We know that taxpayers who had no part in this but will have to cover the costs are victims in this tragedy. But we don't have nearly enough evidence in the case to determine whether the shooting was justified or not.

As for the riots afterward, it is natural to "consider the source". If the people telling me that this was a senseless act are the same people who are running around committing senseless acts, it's fair to question the position.

[panerd]

I've been told it was a black cop. Shouldn't change the storyline one bit but I wonder if Mr. Sharpton will cancel his trip.

(And I am not a big fan of overzealous cops, sure thinks it sounds like this cop was in the wrong, but am not naïve enough to think the story/outrage has to do with this at all)

[EagleFan]

What's the police version of the story. The family's is basically that he was walking home doing nothing (probably on his way back from feeding the poor and rescuing a fireman from a tree...). Sorry, I get that family is going to say that type of stuff but it always makes me roll my eyes.

[Groundhog]

What's the police version of the story. The family's is basically that he was walking home doing nothing (probably on his way back from feeding the poor and rescuing a fireman from a tree...). Sorry, I get that family is going to say that type of stuff but it always makes me roll my eyes.

From CNN, the story begins the same for both police and witnesses:


Brown and a friend were walking to Harris' house, his mother and grandmother said, when a Ferguson police officer confronted them.

The police version, which does not include what happened after police confronted Brown and his friend, includes a struggle inside the police car with Brown trying to apparently take the officer's gun, and ends with the Brown shot multiple times some distance from the police car. At least one shot was fired from within the car.

Hard to know what is fact or fiction, but both stories seem to end with Brown with no weapon and his hands in the air being shot multiple times.

I imagine both stories are exaggerated in opposite directions, but I find it pretty hard to give the benefit of the doubt to the police here... I don't condone rioting or any of that stuff, but at the same time I understand the anger given these don't seem to be blue moon events.

[RainMaker]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of factual evidence floating around on either side. The police don't seem to be helping themselves out by being so hush hush. When you don't get out and control the story early, it lets other people create the story. It also does sort of look like they are covering up something.

The other side has your race hustlers running in trying to turn the story the way they want it portrayed. Doesn't help that there is a local politician going around to the media with conspiracy theories about the shooting being recorded and the police arresting the person who recorded it and hiding her in jail where no one can get to her.

I'd probably wait till more stuff comes out. Seems like each media outlet has a narrative they want to run with on the story. Each side has a different version of events.

[Grammaticus]

Regardless of who the blame lies with the actions of the protesters last night is inexcusable. Does more harm then good. I read during the riots/ looting they ripped an ATM machine from a gas station. How exactly does that show support for any cause?

When people are abused by the Police, govt., etc. and they have no way to legally make change, this is what happens.

Every day there are stories of Police brutality and abuse of power against common Americans. Most stories involve the Police officer saying he/she was in fear for their life when they committed the act. It usually ends with the authorities saying upon review they see it as an acceptable use of force. Case closed!

As this type of thing occurs, what do you think is going to happen? Not everyone will just walk to the slaughter politely.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It usually ends with the authorities saying upon review they see it as an acceptable use of force. Case closed!

And in the enormous majority of cases I agree with them.

I certainly have a great deal more faith the Generic Police than I do in Generic Mob.

[Lathum]

When people are abused by the Police, govt., etc. and they have no way to legally make change, this is what happens.

Every day there are stories of Police brutality and abuse of power against common Americans. Most stories involve the Police officer saying he/she was in fear for their life when they committed the act. It usually ends with the authorities saying upon review they see it as an acceptable use of force. Case closed!

As this type of thing occurs, what do you think is going to happen? Not everyone will just walk to the slaughter politely.

So that makes it OK to become a criminal and destroy innocent peoples property?

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[cuervo72]

So that makes it OK to become a criminal and destroy innocent peoples property?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored.jpg

[Lathum]

Solid reference

[panerd]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored.jpg

I would give the protesters some credit if they took up arms and looted the police stations. That would be Boston Tea Party like. Burning down the gas station and robbing hair extensions from a beauty supply shop? Not sure John Adams would have supported that.

[Logan]

Seems a bit odd that the police haven't interviewed Brown's friend and the primary witness yet.

Eyewitness to Michael Brown shooting recounts his friend's death | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri)

[sterlingice]

I would give the protesters some credit if they took up arms and looted the police stations. That would be Boston Tea Party like. Burning down the gas station and robbing hair extensions from a beauty supply shop? Not sure John Adams would have supported that.

Hair extensions?

SI

[panerd]

Hair extensions?

SI

Yeah we get all the local coverage here so they go pretty in depth. :) And of course they are stirring up racial problems by being specific about "hair extensionss".

Rumor has it that the Mike Brown's name was circulating after being caught on camera shoplifting from the local QT. Local police found him and kid ends up dead. QT burned down in protest. Of course who knows what is rumor and what is fact (I have also heard the cop was black) but sounds like the QT being a target makes a little more sense.

I have said all along that the situation of an unarmed person being shot multiple times by a cop is at minimum excessive force. However I find the rioting and protest completely unworthy of trying to justify in any way.

[cartman]

Hair extensions?

SI

No taxation without tresses elongation

[Blackadar]

So that makes it OK to become a criminal and destroy innocent peoples property?

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree.

He wasn't excusing their actions. He was supplying context to their actions.

When LA burned after the Rodney King thing, it was the local minority stores and houses that burned, not of those who perpetrated the act. Blind rage is simply that, blind. It's stupid, but those who feel helpless against police brutality will tend to lash out in irrational ways.

I've already taught my son that the police are not his friend and they are not interested in "justice". 4 out of 5 cops on the force may be good, but that leaves 20% who are total dirtbags (like a cousin of mine) with the bigger problem being that the other 4 will stick up and lie for the dirtbags.

[panerd]

I've already taught my son that the police are not his friend and they are not interested in "justice". 4 out of 5 cops on the force may be good, but that leaves 20% who are total dirtbags (like a cousin of mine) with the bigger problem being that the other 4 will stick up and lie for the dirtbags.

I'm a pretty big skeptic about police and government overreach but unless your son is older your lesson is often what leads to nonsense like the QT burning down.

[Blackadar]

I'm a pretty big skeptic about police and government overreach but unless your son is older your lesson is often what leads to nonsense like the QT burning down.

He is a teenager, which is old enough to understand why cops aren't your friends. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be anything but polite to an officer, but he also needs to understand why you don't answer their questions without your attorney present, you don't submit to searches of your car or person, why they will lie to try to trap you and so forth.

[cuervo72]

I would give the protesters some credit if they took up arms and looted the police stations. That would be Boston Tea Party like. Burning down the gas station and robbing hair extensions from a beauty supply shop? Not sure John Adams would have supported that.

Sure, their anger may have been misdirected. But the idea stands that sometimes, actions like those* are the only ones that seem to get attention. But they no doubt hit easy targets - I don't think targeting a police station would have lasted very long or come out very favorable for them.


* I still think there's a nice bit of hypocrisy here where it comes to some 2nd Amendment defenders. It's ok to open carry in a Target (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/07/02/target-open-carry-and-the-clash-of-cultures-over-guns/). At the same time, you might be shot in a Walmart for holding a toy gun (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-toy-gun-walmart). You need to be armed to protect yourself against an oppressive government (http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/). But you have to be quiet and do what the police tell you to do and accept that they may be a little overzealous at times and eh, gun you down.

[molson]

Seems a bit odd that the police haven't interviewed Brown's friend and the primary witness yet.

Eyewitness to Michael Brown shooting recounts his friend's death | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri)

The local police turned over the investigation, so it would be tampering if they interviewed anyone.

And you have this public statement from Holder that the "FBI will help local authorities undertake a “thorough, fair investigation.” Which different agencies can take different ways, and who knows what is being said behind the scenes. It makes sense to be deliberate even for the outside local agency, and if you're super-cautious, you consult the feds on everything, and maybe try to get them present at interviews, which takes some time. You can see how cynical people are about police investigations. No matter what happens, there will be people who think it's rigged. You can't do anything about them, but you can at least be as thorough and organized as possible to at least mitigate the risks that you're perceived as influencing the people you're interviewing.

Which is why the whole idea that the "police", as a broad unit are covering anything up here already is silly. There was at least a couple of police witnesses, and at least a couple of civilian witnesses. Most likely, in high stress situations, everyone will perceive things a little differently. Everyone can tell what they believe to be the truth and still tell different stories. But I know one thing for sure, if the officer committed a crime, or knows he exhibited poor judgment under stress bordering on criminal activity, he's not going down to his superiors and breaking that down in detail. He'll be in touch with his union rep and go home. The information that the "police" have right now will be from anything that was called in before and right after the incident. That's probably why they were able to say that there was some kind of physical conflict prior to the shooting. But that information only comes from that officer and any other officer at the scene. It could be made up, or exaggerated, or an incorrect account based on stress. There may never be a way to know for sure. But there will be plenty on "both sides" who have already made up their mind just based on the headline. (Putting "both sides" in quotes just because I hate that there's "sides" on something like this, but that's what it is. )

Just like there's only such much information "the police" can know at this point, we can't really attribute anything to the "black people" in this town either. They weren't collectively rioting. Just like whenever there's unrest, or a sports championship, there were some criminals who acted out. Some are just regular criminals, some are maybe people who see businesses as part of the governing structure of their lives, along with the police. It's irrelevant to what happened. Unless this is a violent city generally, in which case officers might be a little more stressed and a little more prone to poor judgment, but I have no idea if that's the case, and even if it is, it doesn't really say anything about fault on either side, it just provides realistic context.

[Young Drachma]

The thing people need to understand these riots and looting is in most instances, the businesses people are destroying aren't owned by locals, but carpetbaggers making a buck there.

There's lots of discussion about how this itself is problematic, but...when people are mostly renters, the banks don't contain local money (if there ARE banks) and the police are almost outsiders too, it's easy to see why people would feel powerless or a lack of ownership about their communities when for all intent and purpose they're just visitors who happen to live there.

A lot to unpack here, but...

<iframe class="vine-embed" src="https://vine.co/v/MYZmwD9Dqhu/embed/simple" width="600" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe><script async src="//platform.vine.co/static/scripts/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This isn't from Halo

[RainMaker]

The thing people need to understand these riots and looting is in most instances, the businesses people are destroying aren't owned by locals, but carpetbaggers making a buck there.

There's lots of discussion about how this itself is problematic, but...when people are mostly renters, the banks don't contain local money (if there ARE banks) and the police are almost outsiders too, it's easy to see why people would feel powerless or a lack of ownership about their communities when for all intent and purpose they're just visitors who happen to live there.

A lot to unpack here, but...

<iframe class="vine-embed" src="https://vine.co/v/MYZmwD9Dqhu/embed/simple" width="600" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe><script async src="//platform.vine.co/static/scripts/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This isn't from Halo

Carpetbaggers? I'm pretty sure their tax dollars count the same as everyone else. I'm sure the jobs they offer are real jobs.

I can't wait to hear the next story about food deserts or how businesses don't want to setup shop and offer jobs in the community. At least now we have video evidence as to why they won't.

[digamma]

* I still think there's a nice bit of hypocrisy here where it comes to some 2nd Amendment defenders. It's ok to open carry in a Target (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/07/02/target-open-carry-and-the-clash-of-cultures-over-guns/). At the same time, you might be shot in a Walmart for holding a toy gun (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-toy-gun-walmart). You need to be armed to protect yourself against an oppressive government (http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/). But you have to be quiet and do what the police tell you to do and accept that they may be a little overzealous at times and eh, gun you down.

This point should not go unnoticed.

[Lathum]

The thing people need to understand these riots and looting is in most instances, the businesses people are destroying aren't owned by locals, but carpetbaggers making a buck there.



What difference does that make? Does it make their lawlessness any less criminal or wrong because the business they are destroying isn't a Mom and Pop shop?

[NobodyHere]

It's also pretty lawless for a thug cop to gun down a civilian.

[Lathum]

It's also pretty lawless for a thug cop to gun down a civilian.

so 2 wrongs make a right?

[NobodyHere]

so 2 wrongs make a right?

That's funny, I don't remember saying that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's also pretty lawless for a thug cop to gun down a civilian.

And if that "civilian" attacks the cop?

Gets very gray really quick when that happens. No, wait, it doesn't.

[Lathum]

That's funny, I don't remember saying that.

then please elaborate on your point.

[NobodyHere]

Simply that the rioters weren't the only lawless ones here.

[RainMaker]

When people are abused by the Police, govt., etc. and they have no way to legally make change, this is what happens.

Every day there are stories of Police brutality and abuse of power against common Americans. Most stories involve the Police officer saying he/she was in fear for their life when they committed the act. It usually ends with the authorities saying upon review they see it as an acceptable use of force. Case closed!

As this type of thing occurs, what do you think is going to happen? Not everyone will just walk to the slaughter politely.

Do they not have votes in that city? Are they not able to run for local office? Are they not able to file lawsuits? There are plenty of ways to legally make change.

Now there are a lot of issues with today's police. I'm not denying that. But the only change burning down local businesses accomplishes is less tax revenue for your city, less jobs for your residents, and cops who are even more on edge. The riotining/looting didn't bring about positive change, it actively makes the community a worse plays with less opportunity.

[Warhammer]

Additionally, tying is into the previous pictures, in what way are these businesses symbols of our government?

[cuervo72]

And if that "civilian" attacks the cop?

Gets very gray really quick when that happens. No, wait, it doesn't.

See, I'd repunctuate that as:

And if that civilian "attacks" the cop?

Cops are human. They are flawed, they may act on emotion. Some are probably biased or racist. Some aren't the best and brightest (http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836).

So without proper training and supervision, they're going to fuck up. Sometimes, they are going to abuse power. When they do, they are going to fit the story to cover their own asses (http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-chokehold-death-homicide-medical-examiner-rules/story?id=24811834).

After his death, officers told supervisors that they did not think excess force was used and initially blamed Garner's death on a heart attack before the film went viral.

Without that film, we would have gotten the same story here. It was the perp's fault he's dead, not the cops. They were just protecting themselves. He was resisting arrest and/or violent.

[JonInMiddleGA]

See, I'd repunctuate that as:

And if that civilian "attacks" the cop?

It's probably nothing more than a simple question:
which do you trust more, police or random civilian

Given what I think of the average civilian my answer is quite consistent with my overall beliefs.

[cuervo72]

Oh, by no means are all civilians pristine. But cops aren't either. They come from that same civilian pool, it's not as if they come from some magically ordained pot of superior individuals. Some officers will join the force because they wish to serve and protect. Some will join because it's a job and has a decent pension. Some will join because it gives them power and the ability to lord it over others. No different from anyone else.

Are some cops trustworthy? Absolutely. Most of them, probably. All of them? Hell no. No different from the random civilian.

[NobodyHere]

It's probably nothing more than a simple question:
which do you trust more, police or random civilian

Given what I think of the average civilian my answer is quite consistent with my overall beliefs.

I'm curious, what makes the average cop more trustworthy than the average civilian in your eyes?

[Suicane75]

Because in general there's a vetting process that goes into becoming a cop, there's also a general sense of duty and civic responsibility that goes into wanting to be a cop.

[RainMaker]

Because in general there's a vetting process that goes into becoming a cop, there's also a general sense of duty and civic responsibility that goes into wanting to be a cop.

Yeah it has nothing to do with them being incapable of finding employment in lucrative fields.

[Blackadar]

Because in general there's a vetting process that goes into becoming a cop, there's also a general sense of duty and civic responsibility that goes into wanting to be a cop.

AHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm curious, what makes the average cop more trustworthy than the average civilian in your eyes?

More ... "vetted" might be a decent word for what I'm trying to say.

They've had more training, been more closely observed, been subjected to more evaluation, been subjected to more scrutiny, etc & so on. They've had more opportunities to have their shortcomings identified & dealt with than the random (and I do mean random, literally pick one from amongst 318.6m) person.

Secondary to that I suppose is anecdotal experience. Lord knows, between my somewhat misspent youth & years of dealing with law enforcement first hand as a broadcast journalist it's not as though I don't have some first hand knowledge. I've most definitely seen the bad along with the good -- from rural to metro to suburban -- but on average if you pick one person with a badge at random vs one person vs the non-badge population at random & put them in law enforcement Situation X I believe the odds of the officer acting properly are significantly higher than the civilian.

edit to add: just ftr, Suicane posted while I was composing, I had not seen his word choice when I made mine.

[CU Tiger]

It's probably nothing more than a simple question:
which do you trust more, police or random civilian

Given what I think of the average civilian my answer is quite consistent with my overall beliefs.


I think all of our views on this are jaded by our regional experiences.

In my hometown, for example. I'd trust the average street walker in the worst neighborhood before I'd trust most LEO.

I'm trying to organize my thought into a coherent post, and as horrible as this analogy is Im going to use a numerical representation on "quality of person" as flawed as that is.

Around here in the civilian pop ulation we have 1-100s just like everywhere.
In a worse, more crime inflicted neighborhood the average probably skews into the 30s...with a few 100's and a lot of 0's.

On our police force we probably have a range on 35-50...its a rural area, very economically depressed. I think starting deputies are still under $25k/yr...you only go into Law Enforcement if you literally cant do anything else.

So if I encounter a "thug" in a bad neighborhood. He may be a 0 but he may also be a 100. When I encounter a cop I know AT BEST (again around here) he is a 50 and more likely to be worse.

All that is said with family and high school friends who are those cops. Its just damn old small town politics. Arrests, seizures then the seizure auction is poorly advertised and the cop who arrested youis now driving your old car he paid $1 for.

Obviously I dont live in St Louis, so that is different.

However I also think that as a cop you probably tend to observe behavior patterns. The fact that a large % of a community would devolve into the looting we see, probably means they encounter this behavior daily for weeks , months and years on end. So when they engage a situation they bring those expctations and prejudices to the party. That probably causes them to react overly aggressive.

Not saying its right, just saying human nature being what it is it likely happens.

[Suicane75]

Yeah it has nothing to do with them being incapable of finding employment in lucrative fields.

I'm sure for some it does. So what?

[molson]

I've trained police officers (edit: not on tactics, on legal stuff), have been to a few academy graduation ceremonies, and have worked with many officers in all kinds of contexts. The bulk of them are really inspiring. It's not an easy job and there's a lot of turnover, a lot who can't make it through the first few years. They all make mistakes at some point, and I've seen many agonize over those and too harshly question themselves. Of course it's also a job where royally fucking up can have huge stakes. Which they all are well aware of. Training is critical but you can't guarantee perfect performance in all situations or even perfect vetting.

Everything being equal, taking a random police officer and a random citizen, I would trust the officer more for all the reasons mentioned. But where there's an situation involving an officer action that looks fishy or questionable, that officer is no longer "random", so the equation can change in a hurry.

[Blackadar]

I've trained police officers, have been to a few academy graduation ceremonies, and have worked with many officers in all kinds of contexts. The bulk of them are really inspiring. It's not an easy job and there's a lot of turnover, a lot who can't make it through the first few years. They all make mistakes at some point, and I've seen many agonize over those and too harshly question themselves. Of course it's also a job where royally fucking up can have huge stakes. Which they all are well aware of. Training is critical but you can't guarantee perfect performance in all situations or even perfect vetting.

Everything being equal, taking a random police officer and a random citizen, I would trust the officer more for all the reasons mentioned. But where there's an situation involving an officer that looks fishy or questionable, that officer is no longer "random", so the equation can change in a hurry.

Molson, I'd generally agree with you. I worked with a lot of law enforcement personnel over 7 years and the majority were pretty good guys.

The problem is that the "Thin Blue Line" is really a "Thick Brick Wall" and as such when something is done that is bad nothing happens. The whole system is corrupt in their rush to protect police offers from any criticism and repercussions from their actions. That's not much different than any other big bureaucracy, but it makes a difference when those actions take place at the barrel of a gun.

Combine that with the increasing militarization of the police forces and it becomes a critical problem. The mentality is often "shoot now and we'll sort it out later", knowing that there's little chance of any disciplinary action later. That's why we see almost on a daily basis some evidence of police brutality.

Call the Cops - Rob Hustle ft. Liv - The CON Trail (http://thecontrail.com/video/call-the-cops-rob-hustle-ft-liv)

[RainMaker]

I'm sure for some it does. So what?

You're trying to make them out to be some honorable citizens who sacrifice to perform a civic duty for the greater good. That "sense of duty and civic responsibility" you talk about seems to go away awfully quick when one of their own does something wrong. It seems to disappear into a vast void when it comes to firing one of their own (which is almost impossible to do). Or reporting crime statistics accurately. And see the kind of response you get if you want to file a complaint against an officer.

Then again I live in a city that dishes out hundreds of millions in lawsuits to people and blatantly lies about the crime stats. Maybe they just haven't heard about that duty and civic responsibility part.

Now I'm sure most are good people. Just as I'm sure most of any profession are good people. But I also realize most are in this because it's the best opportunity available and beats digging ditches.

[molson]

Molson, I'd generally agree with you. I worked with a lot of law enforcement personnel over 7 years and the majority were pretty good guys.

The problem is that the "Thin Blue Line" is really a "Thick Brick Wall" and as such when something is done that is bad nothing happens. The whole system is corrupt in their rush to protect police offers from any criticism and repercussions from their actions. That's not much different than any other big bureaucracy, but it makes a difference when those actions take place at the barrel of a gun.

Combine that with the increasing militarization of the police forces and it becomes a critical problem. The mentality is often "shoot now and we'll sort it out later", knowing that there's little chance of any disciplinary action later. That's why we see almost on a daily basis some evidence of police brutality.

Call the Cops - Rob Hustle ft. Liv - The CON Trail (http://thecontrail.com/video/call-the-cops-rob-hustle-ft-liv)

I think there is definitely a disconnect between the reality and how a lot of agencies express these things to the public. Many officers are fired, many are disciplined, many at lectured in front of their peers, some go to prison, and there's always tension between police chiefs and DOC staffs that want to fire bad veteran officers but are told by lawyers that they can't yet.

A lot of agencies are terrible at communicating this general distaste for bad policing to the public. (And there's definitely terrible agencies out there too with bad cultures, but I don't think that's the norm). Maybe there's a defensiveness when you have so many people who are incredibly over-cynical about everything police do. Sometimes there's policies about what they can say publicly. I think there's some misunderstandings about the law sometimes too, or there's grey areas where many in the public see it as a slam-dunk-cop-is-evil deal.

And I don't think a lot of individual officers really consciously think "what the fuck, I'll shoot this guy, nothing will happen to me." Statistically, I'm sure there's psychopaths like that out there in any profession (and cops are the ones who actually can act on it in the course of their jobs), but for most of them, it's a terrible and stressful thing.

[JediKooter]

There's usually a reason that certain communities distrust law enforcement. It's rare something like this happening in a majority white community, but, these incidences seem to happen with a frequency that seems 'peculiar' at best in minority communities. Maybe it's the way the media reports these things, I don't know. Kind of like once a cute white girl goes missing, it's national news, but, when a minority girl goes missing, it barely gets a mention by the media, if at all.

[Young Drachma]

What difference does that make? Does it make their lawlessness any less criminal or wrong because the business they are destroying isn't a Mom and Pop shop?

I don't care one way or another.

My position is there is an underlying cause to this kind of behavior that dates back to the past and it begins and ends with people having some investment in the places they live.

Of course, if you take the National Review position on it, we can just call them all lawless savages, shoot them all and call it a day.

I have some strong opinions on the reactions, as well as some of the other things going on, but those issues don't negate the origins of why places like this exist in the first place.

All of these issues are about policies that predated the actions. Failing to talk about structural policy will leave us spinning our wheels until we recognize that all of this stuff was crafted deliberately and leads to the powder keg we're seeing now.

[Logan]

I don't care one way or another.

My position is there is an underlying cause to this kind of behavior that dates back to the past and it begins and ends with people having some investment in the places they live.

Of course, if you take the National Review position on it, we can just call them all lawless savages, shoot them all and call it a day.

I have some strong opinions on the reactions, as well as some of the other things going on, but those issues don't negate the origins of why places like this exist in the first place.

All of these issues are about policies that predated the actions. Failing to talk about structural policy will leave us spinning our wheels until we recognize that all of this stuff was crafted deliberately and leads to the powder keg we're seeing now.

I guess I just don't see how people would fail to have a connection to the grocery stores, pharmacies, coffee shops, etc that they shop at everyday because they have a known brand on the outside vs "Tim Smith's Pharmacy".

[molson]

There's usually a reason that certain communities distrust law enforcement. It's rare something like this happening in a majority white community, but, these incidences seem to happen with a frequency that seems 'peculiar' at best in minority communities. Maybe it's the way the media reports these things, I don't know. Kind of like once a cute white girl goes missing, it's national news, but, when a minority girl goes missing, it barely gets a mention by the media, if at all.

There's more police activity generally in poorer communities where there's more crime. And that activity can breed hostility towards police and you can see how it can become a vicious cycle. In a town without a lot of police activity, there's fewer bad incidents, less distrust, it's more likely a citizen will show submissive deference to authority. And it's easier for the bad cop to operate in a community with so much real hostility and physical resistance directed towards officers, a bad cop will stand out much more quickly in malibu or whatever. In a lot of suburban areas the main thing going on police-wise is DUIs and domestic violence. It's a totally different dynamic of interaction from places where there's more street patrols.

[RainMaker]

I think there is definitely a disconnect between the reality and how a lot of agencies express these things to the public. Many officers are fired, many are disciplined, many at lectured in front of their peers, some go to prison, and there's always tension between police chiefs and DOC staffs that want to fire bad veteran officers but are told by lawyers that they can't yet.

I don't know where you're getting the "many officers are fired" part but the number is incredibly low. I used to do statistical work for pension systems and the number of officers who are fired compared to the private sector is minuscule. There were major cities like DC that would go years without an officer over the age of 40 being fired.

To put it into perspective, teachers were fired at 3-4 times the rate police officers were. And we all know how hard it is to fire a teacher.

[molson]

I don't know where you're getting the "many officers are fired" part but the number is incredibly low. I used to do statistical work for pension systems and the number of officers who are fired compared to the private sector is minuscule. There were major cities like DC that would go years without an officer over the age of 40 being fired.

To put it into perspective, teachers were fired at 3-4 times the rate police officers were. And we all know how hard it is to fire a teacher.

It is very hard to fire veteran officers, but much easier in most places to let them go in the first years. I wish more lawyers weren't so cautious about the advice they give regarding that. But my point was that the administration and the wardens want these people gone. I've been in these meetings. I've worked in an agency that represents the state and counties when they try to fire police officers. It's not this scenario where an officer does a bad thing and everyone is high-fiving each other and making jokes about how much power they all have. It causes a lot of angst and I wish the agencies were bolder about communicating that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There's usually a reason that certain communities distrust law enforcement.

There sure is.

Like the incredibly high rate of convicted felons in certain communities.

The general population rate is approaching 10%.
The rate among black males is around 25%.

People hate getting caught.

[NobodyHere]

I don't know where you're getting the "many officers are fired" part but the number is incredibly low. I used to do statistical work for pension systems and the number of officers who are fired compared to the private sector is minuscule. There were major cities like DC that would go years without an officer over the age of 40 being fired.

To put it into perspective, teachers were fired at 3-4 times the rate police officers were. And we all know how hard it is to fire a teacher.

And of those fired I wonder how many get reinstated. Like the cop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balcerzak) who kindly handed Jeffrey Dahmer one of his victims.

[Young Drachma]

I guess I just don't see how people would fail to have a connection to the grocery stores, pharmacies, coffee shops, etc that they shop at everyday because they have a known brand on the outside vs "Tim Smith's Pharmacy".

I'm not explaining it well enough, but I doubt I could explain it on a message board anyway.

[RainMaker]

There's more police activity generally in poorer communities where there's more crime. And that activity can breed hostility towards police and you can see how it can become a vicious cycle. In a town without a lot of police activity, there's fewer bad incidents, less distrust, it's more likely a citizen will show submissive deference to authority. And it's easier for the bad cop to operate in a community with so much real hostility and physical resistance directed towards officers, a bad cop will stand out much more quickly in malibu or whatever. In a lot of suburban areas the main thing going on police-wise is DUIs and domestic violence. It's a totally different dynamic of interaction from places where there's more street patrols.

There's also "leaders" in those communities that like to stoke the flames because it's good for their brand/business. There's a reason Al Sharpton is on a flight out to Ferguson and not Chicago despite the fact more black youths will be shot here in the next 24 hours.

[RainMaker]

It is very hard to fire veteran officers, but much easier in most places to let them go in the first years. I wish more lawyers weren't so cautious about the advice they give regarding that. But my point was that the administration and the wardens want these people gone. I've been in these meetings. I've worked in an agency that represents the state and counties when they try to fire police officers. It's not this scenario where an officer does a bad thing and everyone is high-fiving each other and making jokes about how much power they all have. It causes a lot of angst and I wish the agencies were bolder about communicating that.

Just saying that even among the young officers, the rate is miniscule compared to the private sector. They are not firing the bad cops as much as they should.

[molson]

And of those fired I wonder how many get reinstated. Like the cop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balcerzak) who kindly handed Jeffrey Dahmer one of his victims.

Right, so they were fired for sucking and the union and the courts put them back. Any police leadership (like the ones that fired those guys), and the lawyers that represent the state, would completely agree with you that that sucks. Which I think goes against the cops-as-a-collective-evil narrative.

It's also interesting that the lesson to take from that case from a police perspective is that police shouldn't be too cautious. They should extend a Terry stop if they believe have reasonable suspicion to, even if they get closer to that line of an unreasonable seizure. I know people aren't going to believe this, but I think many officers and most young officers are way too cautious when it comes to the 4th Amendment. They're afraid of suppression hearings, they're afraid of defense attorneys and cross-examinations, they're afraid of having their job performance being picked apart, they often leave evidence on the table. The incidents we hear about are such a tiny minority of police interactions.

[molson]

Just saying that even among the young officers, the rate is miniscule compared to the private sector. They are not firing the bad cops as much as they should.

I'm pretty pro-firing generally so I'd agree. I just don't think its the culture that keeps that from happening. And I think there's probably not as many truly bad, dangerous cops as others think there are, but that can vary a lot by agency.

[RainMaker]

It is also a bullshit move not to release the officers name by now. They've had plenty of time to put safety measures in place.

[panerd]

Latest local rumor is that cop was jumped in his car and beaten (apperently he looks really messed up) and his gun was grabbed at. Threw kid from car, threw car into reverse and kid came charging at car. All on video. Like I said it all rumor but if true I can't wait to hear continued justification for the burned down gas station.

[panerd]

Kind of perplexing why the police wouldn't get in front of this if true but I have heard this same story in a couple of different circles.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Kind of perplexing why the police wouldn't get in front of this if true but I have heard this same story in a couple of different circles.

Likely to due rules or even simple realism about what you release prior to an investigation being completed.

They could have all this on video (they do not, I'm saying could have had) and it wouldn't matter to a large portion of the protestors.

[RainMaker]

I'm pretty pro-firing generally so I'd agree. I just don't think its the culture that keeps that from happening. And I think there's probably not as many truly bad, dangerous cops as others think there are, but that can vary a lot by agency.

I don't know what the problem is exactly, I just think more should be fired. Police force should be culling the bottom 5% of their department every year.

It's stuff like this that bother me.

Police Officers Who Shot at Two Innocent Women 103 Times Won't Be Fired - Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/police-officers-shot-two-innocent-women-103-times-041456485.html)

Even if you believe it was a terrible accident, the officers are not competent enough to hold that position. We should have higher standards but instead every incident has excuses. You wouldn't find excuses like this at most private businesses, why do we accept it in something like police work?

[RainMaker]

Likely to due rules or even simple realism about what you release prior to an investigation being completed.

They could have all this on video (they do not, I'm saying could have had) and it wouldn't matter to a large portion of the protestors.

Police departments are well versed in leaking information that benefits themselves and if something in the investigation would make them look better, you bet it'd be out there. We have justifiable shootings by police all the time in Chicago and they never handle it in this manner.

I'm trying to keep an open mind here but the way that department has handled things so far is sketchy at the least.

[Solecismic]

I'm not explaining it well enough, but I doubt I could explain it on a message board anyway.

Maybe it can't be explained. Putting us down doesn't help, either.

We have our equivalents in Suburbia. Every time they announce a new Starbucks, inevitably you hear about the demise of the local diner or coffee house. Ten years ago, Borders was killing the local book store.

What I don't understand is the violence. Tell me what justifies theft or violence against a stranger who did absolutely nothing to you.

We're all carpetbaggers. Every single one of us. There isn't a person in America who can trace his or her roots back to the first Americans who left traces of some sort of community thousands of years ago in what's called Poverty Point, Louisiana.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Police departments are well versed in leaking information that benefits themselves and if something in the investigation would make them look better, you bet it'd be out there. We have justifiable shootings by police all the time in Chicago and they never handle it in this manner.

I'm trying to keep an open mind here but the way that department has handled things so far is sketchy at the least.

You've got the feds breathing down your neck, a delusional percentage of population that won't believe anything other than "oh the poor 'victim' " b.s. ... I wouldn't have much to say either, especially if the feds have said "not a word".

[RainMaker]

You've got the feds breathing down your neck, a delusional percentage of population that won't believe anything other than "oh the poor 'victim' " b.s. ... I wouldn't have much to say either, especially if the feds have said "not a word".

I would if my town was being burned down and my officers were being put in danger. If they had overwhelming evidence, they'd have released it by now. They aren't that stupid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I would if my town was being burned down and my officers were being put in danger. ... They aren't that stupid.

I believe you grossly overestimate a lot of the population.

[rowech]

I would if my town was being burned down and my officers were being put in danger. If they had overwhelming evidence, they'd have released it by now. They aren't that stupid.

There is a similar situation about 25 miles from where I live. A 22 year old kid was killed in a Walmart because he had a BB gun. The controversy is really about whether or not the kid was just carrying it or if he was wheeling it around in a threatening manner. The gun was one from that Walmart. Officers shot and killed him saying he refused to put it down upon orders to do so. Family says he was on the phone talking to family and didn't hear. Witnesses are a mixed bag. This happened almost a week ago and there's been no video released or discussed yet despite all kinds of pleas to do so.

[cuervo72]

"oh the poor 'victim' " b.s.

See, this is it right here though. We have no information, but on the surface "unarmed 18yo shot at distance multiple times" doesn't look good. We have a dead black man/boy and little other information - but the first inclination for many is to side against the black kid and call the suggestion that he might be a victim (again - the dead one here) b.s.

Either that's a misguided trust in authority, or it's racism.

[EagleFan]

Life is fairly simple. Don't attack a cop and go for his gun...

[Groundhog]

Life is fairly simple. Don't attack a cop and go for his gun...

Even if that's what happened, does it mean the cop is OK to shoot him to death as he's running away?

If someone broke into my house and attacked me, I managed to get free, get my gun, chase them out of the house and down the street then shot them to death, what would happen to me?

[cuervo72]

Well, if it's Florida...

[EagleFan]

Even if that's what happened, does it mean the cop is OK to shoot him to death as he's running away?

If someone broke into my house and attacked me, I managed to get free, get my gun, chase them out of the house and down the street then shot them to death, what would happen to me?

Darwinism FTW

[Groundhog]

Darwinism FTW

I guess it's like a debate on religion in that, if you're OK with the idea of a cop making that call, I don't know that we're going to find the middleground to have much of a discussion.

[cuervo72]

Good article, though I'm sure some of you will be quick and eager to rip holes in it: America Is Not For Black People (http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/america-is-not-for-black-people-1620169913).

[Klinglerware]

Hmm, maybe Google Glass wouldn't be such a bad thing after all...

[NobodyHere]

Are we really the land of the free?
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fWHuXn3x--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/xszcmhiuir2rcv9m2zfp.jpg

[Shepp]

Good article, though I'm sure some of you will be quick and eager to rip holes in it:

Didn't even have to get past the first paragraph to see the bias in that article.

[Buccaneer]

Good article, though I'm sure some of you will be quick and eager to rip holes in it: America Is Not For Black People (http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/america-is-not-for-black-people-1620169913).

No holes but I did a search for 'Chicago' and nothing came up.

[panerd]

Are we really the land of the free?
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fWHuXn3x--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/xszcmhiuir2rcv9m2zfp.jpg

I'll see your picture taken out of context and raise you with...

http://cdn.ph.upi.com/sv/upi/UPI-59111368635839/2013/13/6154199fc6042ce54fe0b43605a743ee/Obama-hails-fallen-police-officers_st_th.jpg

[Groundhog]

Didn't even have to get past the first paragraph to see the bias in that article.


The United States of America is not for black people. We know this, and then we put it out of our minds, and then something happens to remind us. Saturday, in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Mo., something like that happened: An unarmed 18-year-old black man was executed by police in broad daylight.


I don't see anything particularly biased in that paragraph.

[cuervo72]

No holes but I did a search for 'Chicago' and nothing came up.

Yep. Until someone fixes Chicago, every article has to be about Chicago and nothing else can be addressed.

[cuervo72]

Dola - and as long as some black people are killing other black people, eh - they're fair game for everybody!

[molson]

I don't see anything particularly biased in that paragraph.

"Executed" presumes guilt, does it not?

Your best case scenario expressed above, (police shooting someone running away) is not necessarily accurate either. That's just an expression of your own bias. Edit: I think it's the scenario a lot of people are desperately rooting for here (along with a white cop with a mustache), because the most important thing to people with that bias is fuel for that bias. Both the kid's friend's scenario and the rumored cop-friendly scenario reported by panerd above sound pretty extreme. Either could be true, something in the middle is probably more likely.

[JonInMiddleGA]

See, this is it right here though. We have no information, but on the surface "unarmed 18yo shot at distance multiple times" doesn't look good. We have a dead black man/boy and little other information - but the first inclination for many is to side against the black kid and call the suggestion that he might be a victim (again - the dead one here) b.s.

Either that's a misguided trust in authority, or it's racism.

It's having more faith in the initial reports about the alleged victim lunging into the car than the distraught alleged eyewitnesses versions of the same incident.

Simple odds about what's a more likely scenario, as good a starting point for an initial assumption as many.

As for race, it was a delusional white unemployed truck driver who opened fire with a shotgun and killed one of most affable young officers I ever met as well as another member of the SWAT team (and wounded a third) that was trying to rescue the suspect's 73 year old mother who he was holding hostage & threatening to kill. Steve left behind a wife and two children.

It was a black man with a long criminal history who shot the finest drug enforcement officer Georgia, perhaps the entire Southeast, ever saw. One of the keenest minds I ever had the privilege to encounter, he was writing a simple traffic ticket when the drug runner panicked, walked back to the car & opened fire. Robbie also left a widow and 2 children. And I sat in Hartsfield airport awaiting a vacation flight and wept when the story appeared unexpectedly on the morning news. Covering his work as a local reporter had been nothing short of a privilege.

It was a third generation piece of ghetto trash that shot two officers here in Athens recently A respected veteran black officer recognized a vehicle to the suspect's cousin, stopped to ask if he might have seen the kidnapping & carjacking suspect, not realizing that the suspect was in the passenger seat. That officer was shot twice and would likely have been executed if not for the coincidental arrival of another officer's patrol car. The suspect then shot Buddy Christian through the window of the car, literally running to the window to fire before the officer had any idea what was happening. The husband and father of two young children died at the scene.

White cop, black cop. White criminal, black criminal. I give less than a flying fuck what color you are, those who assault police are the most dangerous of all criminals, without regard for law nor repercussions. Dangerous animals afaic, and you'll not see a tear from me when one of them is put down.

[Buccaneer]

Yep. Until someone fixes Chicago, every article has to be about Chicago and nothing else can be addressed.

It all has to be addressed - from police brutality, to innocent victims, to violence in the streets. How does one pick and choose which ones to feel justifiable outrage over and which ones we don't? (I don't know.) I am still shocked by the story from a couple weeks ago of the 11 yr old getting killed by a stray bullet while she was playing with her friend. That one saddened me more than others.

[Groundhog]

"Executed" presumes guilt, does it not?

Your best case scenario expressed above, (police shooting someone running away) is not necessarily accurate either. That's just an expression of your own bias. Edit: I think it's the scenario a lot of people are desperately rooting for here (along with a white cop with a mustache), because the most important thing to people with that bias is fuel for that bias. Both the kid's friend's scenario and the rumored cop-friendly scenario reported by panerd above sound pretty extreme. Either could be true, something in the middle is probably more likely.

I don't think it's an expression of my own bias. If he was unarmed and fleeing, then I guess I do have a bias against a cop taking justice into his own hands, but I'm basing my judgement on the version of events that has come out. The police version of events at this stage hasn't negated that point. If they do, then so be it. Otherwise, the police officer executed an unarmed suspect. Regardless of what happened before that.

Maybe there's a very good reason why they haven't released more information at this stage, but assuming the police version is more or less correct, some transparency here would seem to do the world of good.

Maybe my bias too, but excluding media (to the point of no-fly-zones even) from a protest area really rubs me the wrong way. Not something I like to see in a country like the US.

[RainMaker]

Yep. Until someone fixes Chicago, every article has to be about Chicago and nothing else can be addressed.

It's about the disproportionate amount of energy being put on issues like this. If this turns out to be an over-aggressive cop shooting an innocent person, it will be a tragedy. It will bring up issues with police departments that need to be talked about (we discussed it on the last page). Nothing is wrong with that.

But there are individuals who want to turn this into an excuse for why a community is failing. That it's always the evil racist white man's fault. It's a strategy employed in those communities for decades. I think we can all see for ourselves how successful that is.

Every year a story like this gets propped up and the message is that the young black man's biggest threat is the white man. Statistically this couldn't be farther from the truth. Even if you look at incidences of homicide that involve a cop and an unharmed person it's tiny.

The biggest threat to a young black male's life is another young black male. This is a statistical fact. Until leaders in the community acknowledge this and offer up solutions, nothing will change. These communities will have their scapegoat that makes them feel better as they crumble even more.

[Groundhog]

The biggest threat to a young black male's life is another young black male. This is a statistical fact. Until leaders in the community acknowledge this and offer up solutions, nothing will change. These communities will have their scapegoat that makes them feel better as they crumble even more.

How many young black males from affluent suburbs are going around killing each other? What % of young black males are living in poverty compared with % of white males? Making it an issue about black youths or black anything misses the root of the problem IMO.

[nol]

Life is fairly simple. Don't attack a cop and go for his gun...

You don't shoot up a movie theater full of people or bomb the Boston Marathon either, but the police at least made an effort to capture the perpetrators of those acts alive.

[Shepp]

You don't shoot up a movie theater full of people or bomb the Boston Marathon either, but the police at least made an effort to capture the perpetrators of those acts alive.

One of the guys from the Boston bombing was killed and the other wounded.

[Groundhog]

One of the guys from the Boston bombing was killed and the other wounded.

Killed by the other bomber (following a shootout). And they could have quite easily killed the other bomber once they knew he was in the boat.

[Young Drachma]

Well this thread escalated quickly.

From the comments of that Greg Howard article at Deadspin:


Black folks have as much claim on this experiment as anyone. But the lack of ownership of our communities isn't doing anyone any favors. The tactics need to change and just raising hell and complaining for more government oversight is what got us here in the first place.

Michael Brown is a tragedy and his killer should be brought to justice. But if we're going to stop these crimes, it starts with stopping outsiders from selling our towns part and parcel, from demanding local control of schools, police forces and stores in communities. It comes from putting pressure on and creating the conditions for structural equality and making alliances with people who value our lives as much as we do and educating them.

But this whole "America is failing us and hostile to us" narrative of the black cognoscenti on twitter is getting old and getting us nowhere because employing the tactics of our grandparents in a digital world means we consistently lose the PR fight that marches, boycotts and other coordinated events won in the 50s and 60s.

It's time for new rhetoric, boldness & a commitment to something other than claiming we're powerless in this. Change will come and it'll either be on our terms or someone else's.

[cuervo72]

Well, get ready for another round:

Police Fatally Shoot Man in South L.A.; Family Members Say He Was Lying Down When Shot | KTLA (http://ktla.com/2014/08/12/man-hospitalized-after-being-shot-by-police-in-south-l-a/)

[Young Drachma]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu0JJdzCYAAa06m.png:large

[JediKooter]

Why in the world does New Mexico and Oklahoma have so many of those vehicles?

Population of New Mexico - 2,085,287
Population of Oklahoma - 3,850,568
Population of California - 38,340,000

[JonInMiddleGA]

Why in the world does New Mexico and Oklahoma have so many of those vehicles?

Population of New Mexico - 2,085,287
Population of Oklahoma - 3,850,568
Population of California - 38,340,000

A little research suggests that, at least in New Mexico's case, it's because the hardware is essentially free to them through the feds 1033 program (http://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/leso/Pages/default.aspx). NM agencies particularly liked the mine-resistant MRAP armored vehicles with nearly two dozen agencies acquiring them over the past few years (and at least one -- Albuquerque -- recently declaring theirs as surplus to requirements themselves).

[miked]

I don't understand why this is a black/white thing, rather than an overmilitarized police force (that is historically under average in intelligence). There are many cases of these outside the random target gun or Missouri street, like this guy shot in New Mexico wielding a knife after a bit of negotiations...

Police Shoot Homeless Man During Camping Arrest (GRAPHIC VIDEO) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html)

or the baby who had a flash bang grenade thrown in to his crib by people looking for a meth user who in fact was not even home and never found with any drugs I believe (or arrested and held). A no knock warrant issued with no information about what was inside...

Baby in Coma After Police ‘Grenade’ Dropped in Crib During Drug Raid - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/baby-in-coma-after-police-grenade-dropped-in-crib-during-drug-raid/)

Or a recent case I believe in NC or somewhere that a kid with schizophrenia was shot wielding a screwdriver in his home with 3 officers there. It seems that police shootings are all over the place and the people who really suffer (other than the deceased and their families) are the taxpayers who end up not only footing the bill of the settlements, but get to watch as most of these police officers are put back on the street.

[RainMaker]

Wasn't some of the upgrades in part due to that North Hollywood bank robbery many years ago? The robbers had crazy weaponry and the cops were essentially helpless. I think at one point the guy just walked down the middle of the street firing wherever he wanted to and they couldn't stop him.

I feel if something happened like that happened today we'd have a lot of people complaining about the police not being prepared. Seems like a no-win situation.

That's not excusing some of the aggressive crap that's taken place (post above mentions 2 of many cases). But having police prepared to at least handle the worst case scenario isn't necessarily bad.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't understand why this is a black/white thing, rather than an overmilitarized police force (that is historically under average in intelligence). There are many cases of these outside the random target gun or Missouri street, like this guy shot in New Mexico wielding a knife after a bit of negotiations...



The New Mexico shooting was completely justified. He was armed, he had a record of assaulting police. Considerable ado about nothing afaic.

The NC case is still awaiting trial best I can tell, however it was the 33rd time that police had been called to the same home since 2006 for domestic issues and there are plausible counterclaims that he was attacking the officer who fired the fatal shot. The other two have been cleared of any misconduct, procedure right down the line.

or the baby who had a flash bang grenade thrown in to his crib by people looking for a meth user who in fact was not even home and never found with any drugs I believe (or arrested and held). A no knock warrant issued with no information about what was inside...

That incident was just up the road from me (presumably you're referring to the Cornelia, GA incident). The team made an undercover drug buy at the house just a few hours before the raid, 4 people were arrested including the initial suspect -- his 10th arrest on drug & weapons charge -- he was a relative of the homeowners & was staying there.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wasn't some of the upgrades in part due to that North Hollywood bank robbery many years ago? The robbers had crazy weaponry and the cops were essentially helpless. I think at one point the guy just walked down the middle of the street firing wherever he wanted to and they couldn't stop him.

I feel if something happened like that happened today we'd have a lot of people complaining about the police not being prepared. Seems like a no-win situation.

That's not excusing some of the aggressive crap that's taken place (post above mentions 2 of many cases). But having police prepared to at least handle the worst case scenario isn't necessarily bad.

I do agree - I guess the problem is if the acquisition of this more powerful hardware fuels the machismo of the officers and/or leads to people applying to be cops just so they can indulge their military fantasies without having to join the military, and these two things lead to them using unnecessary force so that they can play with their toys.

It's a double-edged sword and I don't pretend to have the answer.

[cuervo72]

I don't understand why this is a black/white thing, rather than an overmilitarized police force (that is historically under average in intelligence). There are many cases of these outside the random target gun or Missouri street, like this guy shot in New Mexico wielding a knife after a bit of negotiations...

Or this: Video of death at Warren Theatre released | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/video-of-death-at-warren-theatre-to-be-released/24659110)

Or this: Down Syndrome Man Goes to Movies, Ends up in Morgue - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/syndrome-man-movies-ends-morgue/story?id=20046376)

It's not only about race, but I don't think there's much question that in general police will give more respect and benefit of the doubt to whites.

[nol]

One of the guys from the Boston bombing was killed and the other wounded.

Yep, I know that part. Just checking to make sure you understand the difference between an unarmed suspect with his hands up who might have shoplifted from a gas station and suspects who, in addition to the bombing, had also murdered one police officer and engaged in a firefight with police.

[JediKooter]

A little research suggests that, at least in New Mexico's case, it's because the hardware is essentially free to them through the feds 1033 program (http://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/leso/Pages/default.aspx). NM agencies particularly liked the mine-resistant MRAP armored vehicles with nearly two dozen agencies acquiring them over the past few years (and at least one -- Albuquerque -- recently declaring theirs as surplus to requirements themselves).

That makes sense. Seems like they would be cost prohibitive just in maintenance alone seeing how I'm sure those departments budgets probably aren't the biggest. I can see why Albuquerque has declared theirs surplus (which I'm taking as they don't need it anymore).

[CU Tiger]

Yep, I know that part. Just checking to make sure you understand the difference between an unarmed suspect with his hands up who might have shoplifted from a gas station and suspects who, in addition to the bombing, had also murdered one police officer and engaged in a firefight with police.

allegedly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That makes sense. Seems like they would be cost prohibitive just in maintenance alone seeing how I'm sure those departments budgets probably aren't the biggest. I can see why Albuquerque has declared theirs surplus (which I'm taking as they don't need it anymore).

Their statement was something along the lines of "we found that we had other vehicles that were suitable for the intended purpose" or something like that.

[Shepp]

Yep, I know that part. Just checking to make sure you understand the difference between an unarmed suspect with his hands up who might have shoplifted from a gas station and suspects who, in addition to the bombing, had also murdered one police officer and engaged in a firefight with police.

It remains to be seen if this kid is as pure and innocent as he is being portrayed.

[nol]

allegedly.

Nope, when even Fox News is reporting that Michael Brown was unarmed at the time he was shot and killed, it's pretty unambiguous. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11/fbi-opens-investigation-into-fatal-shooting-unarmed-black-teenager-in-suburban/

[nol]

It remains to be seen if this kid is as pure and innocent as he is being portrayed.

Wow, you just took "you don't need to shoot and kill an unarmed suspect who is not wanted for multiple counts of murder and domestic terrorism," and twisted it into "he's pure and innocent." Thanks for playing the false equivalence game.

[chadritt]

hey....he may have smoked pot once, we dont know. That would mean he deserved what he got /s

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nope, when even Fox News is reporting that Michael Brown was unarmed at the time he was shot and killed, it's pretty unambiguous. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11/fbi-opens-investigation-into-fatal-shooting-unarmed-black-teenager-in-suburban/

"Unarmed" is not the same "did not pose a threat justifying lethal force".

[molson]

Nope, when even Fox News is reporting that Michael Brown was unarmed at the time he was shot and killed, it's pretty unambiguous. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11/fbi-opens-investigation-into-fatal-shooting-unarmed-black-teenager-in-suburban/

I think he's referring to the "hands up" thing, and I think you know that.

Or maybe there's this idea that where the police shoot and kill an unarmed man, it's automatically a murder, automatically an execution. That's not true. It certainly could be a crime, or entirely justified, or something in between.

In a discussion of these kinds of things on reddit, the top comment was an account of an officer dealing with a use-of-force decision he had to make. The facts are entirely different than the ones in the Missouri case, but I think it does a good job of trying to make the point I've tried to made in this thread - police officers are human beings, not a part of a collective single-brain entity of "the police".

People hear about an incident like this and they immediately conclude it was an "execution", that "the police" hate black people, that "the police" know exactly what happened and just aren't telling us. All of these situations are more complicated than that. Even where there is an actual crime, like in the case of that BART shooting (involuntary manslaughter, ultimately), there can be so many factors at play because critical decisions are being made in seconds by individuals, all flawed, some more flawed than others.

That doesn't excuse crimes of course (all crimes are at some level, about poor judgment). I just think it helps with the context.

The scenario described in that reddit comment is similar to fictional scenarios I've seen utilized in officer training (sometimes with the suspect having a weapon, sometime not). If you run a scenario like that with 100 officers, probably 85 handle it perfectly or with just a few mistakes, 10 get themselves "killed" or in a position to have been killed, and around 5 use a questionable amount of force that would result in at least an investigation. It seems like in real life, there aren't as many mistakes (probably because only some portion of that 100 actually become veteran officers). I've read many, many police reports where officers used much less force than they could have.

But still, there's enough police activity generally in the United States that it's easy to put together a pretty horrifying list of bad or questionable officer conduct. If you are inclined to decide that's how "the police" are, it's easy to. But couldn't you make such a list for any group? Whether it be profession, race, religion, sports fan allegiance? Some of the horrible things will be different depending on the group (I could make a huge list of teachers that molested their students, because teachers have ready access to students, as opposed to firearms and a lawful authority to use some amount of force). You're not going to get a great reaction if you express a belief that teachers are child molesters though.

There's a real parallel about how the two "sides" see each other. The one side think the police are racist, that they somehow know exactly what happened here but they're just not telling us. The other side sees a bunch of people claiming they want justice but are only looting. But there are so many individuals in those groups, so many individuals that disagree with people in their own group. If you're just inclined to dislike a group though, whether it be the police, or black people, you see them as one collective mind doing evil things.

In light of recent and abundant media coverage; what is going on with the shootings of young, unarmed [black] men/ women and what are the departments doing about it from the inside? : AskLEO (http://www.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2d9f3w/in_light_of_recent_and_abundant_media_coverage/)

[Shepp]

Wow, you just took "you don't need to shoot and kill an unarmed suspect who is not wanted for multiple counts of murder and domestic terrorism," and twisted it into "he's pure and innocent." Thanks for playing the false equivalence game.

Someone needs to be armed and/or wanted for multiple counts of murder and domestic terrorism to pose a lethal threat?

Was I wrong for interpreting your posts to infer that since the suspects in the movie theater and Boston bombing were captured alive that the police could not possibly have justification for shooting this teenager?

[Young Drachma]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qQeni0qt8Vo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Shepp]

I wonder what Mr. Brown or his friend did or said that prompted the officer to back up after driving away? I'm also curious what happened between when the officer backed up and the struggle started at the car? It seems like there is a piece or two missing from this story?

[JonInMiddleGA]

It seems like there is a piece or two missing from this story?

Imagine that

[RainMaker]

The part where he went on every MSNBC show over the past few days and ignored numerous requests from law enforcement (city, county, and federal) to give his side of the story is odd.

[DaddyTorgo]

Absent any sort of weapon, and given that he, according to witnesses, had his hands in the air and was not at that time engaged in a physical altercation with the officer when he was shot multiple times, I have a hard time finding any way that an 18 year old kid posed a "lethal threat" to an adult male who was armed.

There's some serious mental gymnastics going on to get to "blame the victim" at this point.

THAT BEING SAID - more information may come out in the future and the story may change, but at this point...yeah no.

[NobodyHere]

The part where he went on every MSNBC show over the past few days and ignored numerous requests from law enforcement (city, county, and federal) to give his side of the story is odd.

If the cops shot your friend how willing would you be to talk with them?

[Shepp]

Absent any sort of weapon, and given that he, according to witnesses, had his hands in the air and was not at that time engaged in a physical altercation with the officer when he was shot multiple times, I have a hard time finding any way that an 18 year old kid posed a "lethal threat" to an adult male who was armed.

There's some serious mental gymnastics going on to get to "blame the victim" at this point.

THAT BEING SAID - more information may come out in the future and the story may change, but at this point...yeah no.

Exactly how many witnesses say he had his hands in the air? Last time I checked an "18 year old kid" is an adult male. How do we know he wasn't bigger, stronger, or in better shape than this officer?

The only mental gymnastics that I am seeing are how fast the actions of this officer are being condemned without the whole story even seeing the light of day. At the end of this road the officer may be wrong. He may even deserve to be prosecuted. Then again he may be completely justified. It just amazes me how many folks in the general public and even on this board have already made up their minds.

[Shepp]

If the cops shot your friend how willing would you be to talk with them?

Right, looting the neighborhood is a far better plan.

[NobodyHere]

Right, looting the neighborhood is a far better plan.
You have proof this guy was part of the looting?

[Shepp]

You have proof this guy was part of the looting?

No more than you have that he wasn't.

[NobodyHere]

No more than you have that he wasn't.
:rolleyes:

[Shepp]

:rolleyes:

Because proof is a requirement in this thread all of the sudden.

[chadritt]

So Im trying to find the actual facts which seem to be few: Kids get pulled over while walking for some unknown reason, Kid gets shot 35 feet from car with no weapon while hes clearly NOT charging the cop. Whats missing is whether or not he actually hit the cop, which is entirely possible if his injuries are real, but why was there no attempt to arrest him instead of shooting him? Even if he assaulted an officer whats the logic for defending a shooting from that far away?

[RainMaker]

If the cops shot your friend how willing would you be to talk with them?

If I was afraid of the cops I sure as shit wouldn't be on TV all day. He was with a lawyer too. I doubt he was in much danger.

I guess it bugged me that people were hammering the police for not arresting this officer but the key witness wouldn't even give a statement to police (I guess he did this afternoon). Police can't go off MSNBC interviews.

[CU Tiger]

I think he's referring to the "hands up" thing, and I think you know that.



Yep.
Thanks.

Its this kind of intellectual dishonest agrumenting that leads me to steer clear of these discussions mostly.

[CU Tiger]

If this guy's accounts are accurate (and thats a big if) then the cop should be charged with murder.

Forgive me for doubting his story is 100% factually accurate.

As far as lessons for kids (which was mentioned earlier itt) mine would be if a cop pulls up and aggresively barks orders, if it doesnt endanger you comply (I.E> get out of the middle of the road in this case) If you feel you have been treated wrong lets address it in a professional manner when we are less likely to get shot.

I think that kind of comes with situational awareness. Same goes for a street interaction. Go in wrong neighborhood have a fender bedner get out cussing and screaming and threatening it is likely going to end up poorly.

LEO's should be held to a highr standard, but to assume they will react differently is obviously foolish

[Groundhog]

Huffington Post Reporter Arrested In Ferguson (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/huffington-post-reporter-arrested-ferguson_n_5676829.html)

Two reporters arrested in Ferguson.

[Logan]

There's some real crazy shit visible on Twitter.

[JPhillips]

SWAT just invade McDonald's where I'm working/recharging. Asked for ID when I took photo. pic.twitter.com/FOIsMnBwHy

— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 13, 2014

Police come into McD where me and @ryanjreilly working. Try to kick everyone out.

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 13, 2014

"We cannot guarantee your safety. We will not be answering 911 calls"

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 13, 2014

Was arrested

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Officers decided we weren't leaving McDonalds quickly enough, shouldn't have been taping them.

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Released without any charges, no paperwork whatsoever

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Officers slammed me into a fountain soda machine because I was confused about which door they were asking me to walk out of

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Well, @WesleyLowery and I have been released. That was an experience.

— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 14, 2014

Police now say there might be a report available to Ryan and I in "a week or two"

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

[panerd]

Gotta love the liberals. Been talking about the militarization of the police on here for years and was laughed at and called a loon but now that it's a racial thing they suddenly have found Jesus.

[TroyF]

SWAT just invade McDonald's where I'm working/recharging. Asked for ID when I took photo. pic.twitter.com/FOIsMnBwHy

— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 13, 2014

Police come into McD where me and @ryanjreilly working. Try to kick everyone out.

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 13, 2014

"We cannot guarantee your safety. We will not be answering 911 calls"

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 13, 2014

Was arrested

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Officers decided we weren't leaving McDonalds quickly enough, shouldn't have been taping them.

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Released without any charges, no paperwork whatsoever

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Officers slammed me into a fountain soda machine because I was confused about which door they were asking me to walk out of

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

Well, @WesleyLowery and I have been released. That was an experience.

— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 14, 2014

Police now say there might be a report available to Ryan and I in "a week or two"

— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 14, 2014

August 14? Am I missing something?

[cuervo72]

I wonder what Mr. Brown or his friend did or said that prompted the officer to back up after driving away?

Could have been anything. I could easily see a case where a cop goes to drive off, the kids either yell an expletive or flip the cop off, and then the cop goes back to teach them a lesson. Easily. Cops don't like taking shit. You don't afford the wrong cop the "proper respect" and you're being combative, or resisting arrest, and cuffed or pressed down against the pavement.

[JPhillips]

August 14? Am I missing something?

My guess is GMT rather than Central.

[RainMaker]

It is kind of funny how they can afford all these weapons and tools but not a dashboard cam.

[BishopMVP]

There's some real crazy shit visible on Twitter.Nothing about this part surprises me. Happened every time they brought in outside riot police officers at UMass too. You have an us vs. them and a mob mentality on both sides, and the police find one or two dumb people and use it to crack down on everyone, including the 98% that is just standing around and posing no threat.

I've stayed out of the rest because we have no real idea what happened during the confrontation, but I completely believe the cop started it. Good cops can handle that situation easily - either ignore it or use a calm reasonable tone when telling the person to move to the sidewalk. Arrogant dicks who feel the need to assert their power will gun the engine back there and escalate the situation. Even if the kid did start a physical altercation then the whole situation was caused by a cop who felt he had to assert dominance.

[Logan]

Not a good look for the PD to order the media to turn off their cameras as they advance with a riot squad.

[RainMaker]

Not a good look for the PD to order the media to turn off their cameras as they advance with a riot squad.

Or arresting them at fast food joints.

[DaddyTorgo]

Gotta love the liberals. Been talking about the militarization of the police on here for years and was laughed at and called a loon but now that it's a racial thing they suddenly have found Jesus.

Well aren't you just so much better than all the rest of us.

Is that what you wanted to hear? Will you STFU now?

[panerd]

Well aren't you just so much better than all the rest of us.

Is that what you wanted to hear? Will you STFU now?

I thought I was on your ignore list?

I didn't even realize you even posted anything in this thread about police militarization at all but so sorry you took such great offense.

[BishopMVP]

Not a good look for the PD to order the media to turn off their cameras as they advance with a riot squad.Par for the course. I've seen plenty of cell phones/cameras "confiscated" and people threatened with arrest for recording police (and when the person actually knew their rights and refused they'd switch to the ubiquitous "Failure to Disperse")

Fact is, the police basically do have carte blanche to do what they want in the moment. Everything gets thrown out in court, but there's no punishment on the police side. Maybe some " extra training" or a paid suspension until the hearing clears them.

[PilotMan]

Here Are the Emergency Dispatch Calls From the Day Michael Brown Died (http://gawker.com/here-are-the-emergency-dispatch-calls-from-the-day-mich-1621074887/all)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not a good look for the PD to order the media to turn off their cameras as they advance with a riot squad.

Jeopardizes the operation if they're tipping it ahead of time. (Sounds as they this occurred at the staging area, based on the McDonald's bit).

[DaddyTorgo]

I thought I was on your ignore list?

I didn't even realize you even posted anything in this thread about police militarization at all but so sorry you took such great offense.

You are - occasionally I peek in on ignore-listed folks.

It's not even about me taking offense - I don't care what you think of me. It's just your whole shtick is so tired man. You never fail to take ANY current event, political or otherwise, and bend it to your standard "I'M A LIBERTARIAN...I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS...HAR HAR STUPID (R)'s AND (D)'s WHO ARE JUST SAYING IT NOW."

We all get it alright - you can stop, and maybe...idk - contribute something actually topical and useful instead of the same old cliched post by you.

[panerd]

You are - occasionally I peek in on ignore-listed folks.

It's not even about me taking offense - I don't care what you think of me. It's just your whole shtick is so tired man. You never fail to take ANY current event, political or otherwise, and bend it to your standard "I'M A LIBERTARIAN...I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS...HAR HAR STUPID (R)'s AND (D)'s WHO ARE JUST SAYING IT NOW."

We all get it alright - you can stop, and maybe...idk - contribute something actually topical and useful instead of the same old cliched post by you.

Too bad I'm on ignore because I posted what the police statement is going to be a couple of pages ago and it got lost in the back and forth over some Internet article. Seems to happen to everyone I guess? Your problem is you take it so personal. I'd report you telling me to shut the fuck up but I don't care that much though you are the one way out of line in this thread.

[cuervo72]

the whole situation was caused by a cop who felt he had to assert dominance

I think that's probably what it boils down to. For some cops, these aren't citizens. They're subjects. And if those subjects don't bow to their feudal masters, their betters, they get pissed.

[DaddyTorgo]

Too bad I'm on ignore because I posted what the police statement is going to be a couple of pages ago and it got lost in the back and forth over some Internet article. Seems to happen to everyone I guess? Your problem is you take it so personal. I'd report you telling me to shut the fuck up but I don't care that much though you are the one way out of line in this thread.

I already told you - I don't take it personally. I don't take anything on the internet personally at all. I just roll my eyes because you never miss an opportunity to toss in your cliched "Libertarian superiority" post. And every so often I think it's important that somebody calls you out on that - just as every so often I think it's important that somebody call out JIMGA for his stuff.

Go ahead and report it - If I get boxed for saying STFU that would be...unprecedented.

[Logan]

Jeopardizes the operation if they're tipping it ahead of time. (Sounds as they this occurred at the staging area, based on the McDonald's bit).

No it didn't occur there. And it didn't "jeopardize" anything; it was just illegal.

[panerd]

I already told you - I don't take it personally. I don't take anything on the internet personally at all. I just roll my eyes because you never miss an opportunity to toss in your cliched "Libertarian superiority" post. And every so often I think it's important that somebody calls you out on that - just as every so often I think it's important that somebody call out JIMGA for his stuff.

Go ahead and report it - If I get boxed for saying STFU that would be...unprecedented.

You responded in anger to something I wrote to another board member and not to you. Seems to be the definition of taking something personally.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No it didn't occur there. And it didn't "jeopardize" anything; it was just illegal.

I got no further on this (non) story than the Twitter stream posted here.

I was strictly making a stab at it based on a) how often I've seen/known of operations being staged from places such as McDonald's and b) the phrasing that made it sound like the encounter was pre-operation.

[Subby]

In Ferguson, Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery gives account of his arrest - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost)

[JonInMiddleGA]

In Ferguson, Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery gives account of his arrest - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost)

I'm claiming half credit at least

For the past week in Ferguson, reporters have been using the McDonald’s a few blocks from the scene of Michael Brown’s shooting as a staging area

[Subby]

keithlaw 11:15pm via Twitter for iPhone

I'm guessing Vladimir Putin and Bashar al-Assad are thinking, "Oh, sure, but when WE do this stuff..."

[Subby]

mattdpearce 11:45pm via Twitter for iPhone

STL County Police Chief Belmar: "We've done everything we can to demonstrate a remarkable amount of restraint."

Right - aside from shooting the unarmed teenager. And the full-scale military response. But yeah - everything SINCE then...

[JonInMiddleGA]

And the full-scale military response.

If only.

Oh, if only.

[Subby]

Michael Ian Black @michaelianblack · 2h

People confused about the right wing's lack of solidarity with #ferguson, you may not have taken racism into account.

[mckerney]

mattdpearce 11:45pm via Twitter for iPhone

STL County Police Chief Belmar: "We've done everything we can to demonstrate a remarkable amount of restraint."

Right - aside from shooting the unarmed teenager. And the full-scale military response. But yeah - everything SINCE then...

It probably took a ton of restraint to only use one canister of tear gas on these reporters.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Seriously. The fuck is wrong with America? How does an image like this ever make sense? <a href="http://t.co/EQzV9YNn3V">pic.twitter.com/EQzV9YNn3V</a></p>&mdash; Chris Kluwe (@ChrisWarcraft) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/statuses/499776517035933696">August 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[JonInMiddleGA]

It probably took a ton of restraint to only use one canister of tear gas on these reporters.

Given the typical media bias (and I've been on both sides of that don't forget), it's an enormous amount of restraint.

[RainMaker]

If your officers require that kind of response they are colossal pussies.

[Groundhog]

<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/720_l3dgbYA" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

Clip of that image.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Clip of that image.

Is that caption (identifying Al-Jazerra as the source) for real?

[Groundhog]

The camera crew were Al-Jazeera, yes. The source of the particular video, no.

[Groundhog]

People in Gaza tweeting tips to Ferguson locals on how to handle tear gas... what an interesting day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The camera crew were Al-Jazeera, yes. The source of the particular video, no.

Yeah, I got that (sorry if my question wasn't clear), it was just so ... "you gotta be kidding me" that I couldn't be sure if it was p'shopped.

[korme]

Huffington Post Reporter Arrested In Ferguson (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/huffington-post-reporter-arrested-ferguson_n_5676829.html)

Two reporters arrested in Ferguson.

This escalated quickly.

[Neon_Chaos]

I guess this shit doesn't just happen in third world countries like mine.

[larrymcg421]

Gotta love the liberals. Been talking about the militarization of the police on here for years and was laughed at and called a loon but now that it's a racial thing they suddenly have found Jesus.

Which of us liberals laughed at you and called you a loon about this issue?

[Grammaticus]

Here Are the Emergency Dispatch Calls From the Day Michael Brown Died (http://gawker.com/here-are-the-emergency-dispatch-calls-from-the-day-mich-1621074887/all)

Wow, the police dept. did not even know it was a shooting until the news called them and let them know? Why would a seasoned police officer not immediately call dispatch and advise of the shooting?

[Lathum]

I am almost always going to side with the police, but the longer this drags on the harder it is to give them any benefit of the doubt in this situation.

[Logan]

Yeah, I got that (sorry if my question wasn't clear), it was just so ... "you gotta be kidding me" that I couldn't be sure if it was p'shopped.

Al Jazeera America has been operating here for about a year and has 12 bureaus across the country in addition to its NYC HQ.

[JPhillips]

Which of us liberals laughed at you and called you a loon about this issue?

+1

I've given him hell about other things, but I'm with him about the militarization of police forces.

[Blackadar]

Which of us liberals laughed at you and called you a loon about this issue?

Seriously. Last time I checked, the "liberals" have been concerned about the militarization of police forces for a good long time now.

[Klinglerware]

Here Are the Emergency Dispatch Calls From the Day Michael Brown Died (http://gawker.com/here-are-the-emergency-dispatch-calls-from-the-day-mich-1621074887/all)

Anonymous is on the case.

If these are legit, this also demonstrates the futility and counter-productiveness (at least from a PR perspective) of the police attempts to impede communication flow. The ability of hackers to obtain these files along with the ability of the press and the general public to easily document and disseminate information to the outside world really should make the police leadership think carefully about the implications of their decision-making. Regardless of police intent, attempting to discourage press coverage and arresting reporters are going to have consequences--at the very least, giving the leadership yet another headache to deal with that could have easily been avoided.

[Klinglerware]

Speaking of anonymous...

Anonymous launches cyber attack on Ferguson after teen shooting | WTVR.com (http://wtvr.com/2014/08/13/anonymous-launches-cyber-attack-on-ferguson-names-demands/)

It looks like they have been successful in their threats to compromise the City government's communications infrastructure and the security of its employee's personal information.

[Groundhog]

Anonymous have leaked the shooter's identity, too.

[cuervo72]

I'm not a liberal (though I've certainly become less conservative the past few years), but I'm pretty sure I voiced reservations concerning the lockdown (www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=87031) of Boston last year.

[DaddyTorgo]

You responded in anger to something I wrote to another board member and not to you. Seems to be the definition of taking something personally.

Nope - not at all. I just think it's important that people call you out on your tired constant refrain from time to time, and since nobody else was, I decided to.

There was no anger. You haven't seen my anger if you think that was "anger." I don't get "angry" at internet stuff.

[Logan]

<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/720_l3dgbYA" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

Clip of that image.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvAF9LbCAAA-uop.png

[Subby]

I am almost always going to side with the police, but the longer this drags on the harder it is to give them any benefit of the doubt in this situation.
My step-dad was a cop and I would like to be able to say the same thing, but at some point this diverges sharply from community policing. Who brings a sniper to a peaceful protest?

https://twitter.com/PDPJ/status/499394946416529409/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu41DqRCUAADTjv.jpg

[Lathum]

That is crazy shit. Is that the local police or National Guard?

[Shepp]

Could have been anything. I could easily see a case where a cop goes to drive off, the kids either yell an expletive or flip the cop off, and then the cop goes back to teach them a lesson. Easily. Cops don't like taking shit. You don't afford the wrong cop the "proper respect" and you're being combative, or resisting arrest, and cuffed or pressed down against the pavement.

The question about what was said or done was rhetorical. It's obvious that there are pieces missing from this guy's story. Of course when the officer went back it was to "teach them a lesson" and not beause these folks made it clear that they intended to disregard what he had told them.

[Subby]

It's like they are preparing for the ZOMBAY APOCALYPSE. Not a peaceful protest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu9OOzBIEAA_E5V.jpg

[panerd]

It's like they are preparing for the ZOMBAY APOCALYPSE. Not a peaceful protest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu9OOzBIEAA_E5V.jpg

People threw a ticker tape parade for this in Boston. I guess they figure this is what the populace wants? And sadly I'm not sure that it isn't the truth.

[Subby]

Storify really shines when it comes to these kinds of events.

Veterans on Ferguson (with images, tweets) · AthertonKD · Storify (https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson)

@C#Ferguson 8-13-2014 (with images, tweets) · chronotope · Storify (https://storify.com/chronotope/ferguson)

[panerd]

Good and the bad to come out of this...

Good
* The media isn't a cheerleader for the police/government like they have been recently.

* Looks like police militarization is getting it's rightful questioning instead of the Hooray USA for the NY Subway Cops with machine guns or the over the top Boston shutdown

* People are at least talking about racial problems. That's the only way they are ever going to get over them.

* The shooting can't just get swept under the rug. Social media does have a lot of power.

Bad
* The FBI jumping in right away. So Ferguson was given no chance to let the process work on it's own. Now even if the cop is charged with murder and prosecuted people will still think that it required burning down a gas station and taking the city hostage to get due process. Sorry the shooting happened Sunday and the FBI took over Monday. I just think the wrong message is being sent and no matter the results people will still think it requires near anarchy to get a "fair shake".

* The cops thinking they need military weapons and tear gas to bring "peace". If they weren't there and the media wasn't there I'm guessing a lot of these protestors would find other avenues to explore. The police are definitely a BIG part of the continued problems.

[Subby]

jeffclement @jeffclement

A few people have pointed it out, but our ROE regarding who we could point weapons at in Afghanistan was more restrictive than cops in MO.
10:03 PM - 13 Aug 2014

[Subby]

Broken Handmic @13F2PL7

A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fucking it up.

[Subby]

Tyrell Mayfield ‏@TyrellMayfield 15h
People really worried about getting shot do not sit exposed on top of armored cars. @PaulSzoldra @BmoreConetta pic.twitter.com/9NO3Nn5tMI

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu9K4f-IUAAU2et.jpg

[Logan]

Bad
* The FBI jumping in right away. So Ferguson was given no chance to let the process work on it's own. Now even if the cop is charged with murder and prosecuted people will still think that it required burning down a gas station and taking the city hostage to get due process. Sorry the shooting happened Sunday and the FBI took over Monday. I just think the wrong message is being sent and no matter the results people will still think it requires near anarchy to get a "fair shake".


I think in a situation like this, having an investigation come from the outside is much more helpful. If the cop involved was cleared by local authorities, you know what we'd be hearing about next.

And Brown was shot Saturday, FYI.

[panerd]

I think in a situation like this, having an investigation come from the outside is much more helpful. If the cop involved was cleared by local authorities, you know what we'd be hearing about next.

And Brown was shot Saturday, FYI.

Yeah I think the FBI or at least an outside agnecy did need to be involved. I guess my point was the FBI came in right after the riots and really there is no way the police would have been able to do anything in that short of a time period. So to the "masses" they likely think crime is the only way to get justice for crime. When for all we know Ferguson might have called in another agency anyways. I'm pretty sure even the smallest departments don't take officer involved shootings lightly.

[Logan]

Anonymous has already released the name of the officer, with his photo, address, and more documentation still to come. Also posted this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>We have video of Mike Brown's body being shoved into the back of a PD SUV. No EMS was on the scene at all as we first thought. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ferguson?src=hash">#Ferguson</a></p>&mdash; TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheAnonMessage/statuses/499914622817030144">August 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Logan]

And now this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Bloomberg: Missouri Gov. Nixon to announce St. Louis County police being taken out of situation. per Rep. Clay (D-Mo.). <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ferguson?src=hash">#Ferguson</a></p>&mdash; Jonathan Allen (@jonallendc) <a href="https://twitter.com/jonallendc/statuses/499925308574023680">August 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[panerd]

Broken Handmic @13F2PL7

A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fucking it up.

Yes. It seems like the national guard would be a better option. (My opinion only) Our governor is a Democrat in a red state and definitely has higher ambitions. I am guessing he is weary of sending "his guys" in and having possible blood on his hands. Though not doing anything could become his "Katrina".

EDIT: Looks like from Logan's post Nixon has finally decided to do something.

[Young Drachma]

To Name and to Name Not | National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/385391/name-and-name-not-kevin-d-williamson)

The behavior of the Ferguson and St. Louis County police in this matter is illuminating. They are ridiculously militarized suburban police dressed up like characters from Starship Troopers and pointing rifles at people from atop armored vehicles, i.e. the worst sort of mall ninjas.

They are arresting people for making videos of them at work in public places, which people are legally entitled to do, a habit they share with many other police departments. Protecting life, liberty, and property — which is the job of the police — does not require scooping people up for making phone videos; in fact, it requires not scooping people up for making phone videos.

It's real when you have National Review railing against the police actions.

[jeff061]

Cops are good people:

Video of Ferguson police gassing news crew and dismantling their equipment - Boing Boing (http://boingboing.net/2014/08/14/video-of-ferguson-police-gassi.html)

Fuck them. I don't believe the majority of police officers are good, I don't care the opinion of people on this board. The idea of being a police officer does not appeal to good people.

Tackling someone about to jump off a bridge doesn't do anything to make me think you are a swell human being. Being someone in that person's life that prevents him from wanting to jump? Yes. Luckily being in the right place at the right time? Not so much.

Edit: Just noticed this vid had been posted, missed a page since I last checked this thread.

[DaddyTorgo]

People threw a ticker tape parade for this in Boston. I guess they figure this is what the populace wants? And sadly I'm not sure that it isn't the truth.

Different situation - you had active shooters running around after a terrorist attack in that case, and the cops weren't pointing their guns at regular people.

[panerd]

Different situation - you had active shooters running around after a terrorist attack in that case, and the cops weren't pointing their guns at regular people.

I understand what you are saying but my point is more about Joe Schmoe from the St. Louis County Police Department. He sees the ticker tape parade for Boston, gets to wear fatigues and hold a sniper rifle without having to actually serve in a combat zone, and is held in high regard by most. I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

(Again not defending this point of view, I really hold both overzealous cops and looting rioters in very low regard but it is reality here in St. Louis)

[DaddyTorgo]

I understand what you are saying but my point is more about Joe Schmoe from the St. Louis County Police Department. He sees the ticker tape parade for Boston, gets to wear fatigues and hold a sniper rifle without having to actually serve in a combat zone, and is held in high regard by most. I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

(Again not defending this point of view, I really hold both overzealous cops and looting rioters in very low regard but it is reality here in St. Louis)

Gotcha - misunderstood your point. Makes sense now.

[jeff061]

I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

Genie's out of the bottle on this one. How widespread the outrage is in St. Louis does not matter anymore. St. Louis cops would be wise to understand that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues.

Sounds like you have a decent group of coworkers & colleagues :)

[saldana]

Cops are good people:

Video of Ferguson police gassing news crew and dismantling their equipment - Boing Boing (http://boingboing.net/2014/08/14/video-of-ferguson-police-gassi.html)

Fuck them. I don't believe the majority of police officers are good, I don't care the opinion of people on this board. The idea of being a police officer does not appeal to good people.

Tackling someone about to jump off a bridge doesn't do anything to make me think you are a swell human being. Being someone in that person's life that prevents him from wanting to jump? Yes. Luckily being in the right place at the right time? Not so much.

Edit: Just noticed this vid had been posted, missed a page since I last checked this thread.

i have stayed out of this until now, because i know my opinions are vastly different than most people here, but i am not gonna watch this one go by

i honestly feel bad that your view of a group of people that have dedicated their lives to risking it on a daily basis is so immensely fucked up.

i went to college with the thought of becoming a District Attorney...my plan was to become a cop so that i could finance law school without a mountain of debt.

i jacked up my shoulder my senior year and as a result, was unable to complete the physical portions of academy entrance tests for many years.

so what did i do instead...i became a 911 dispatcher...for 8 and a half years i became the first voice that thousands of people heard when they needed help.

and in case that wasnt enough, i became an EMT, so that when i wasnt picking up the phone, i was going to the peoples houses to try to save their lives.

the entire time i was doing that, i still wanted to be a cop.

but i guess that i am no a good person

unless you have done it, you have no idea what it is like to do a job where you are universally hated for doing it...for showing up for work KNOWING that you might not go home that night, and instead, some chief or captain will go tell your wife and children that their father is dead.

people like you are the EXACT reason that those cops are acting the way they are in Ferguson...because you think you have a right to hate them for their mere existence...and since there are alot more of you than there are of them, you then hate them more because they prepare themselves to defend each other...they have no idea who the enemy is, because it is everywhere when people like you exist.

i am not saying shitty, corrupt, and abusive cops dont exist...i have known some...had to work with them...and hated every second of it

but for every one that is a piece of crap, there are thousands that are doing showing up every day prepared to put themselves in harms way...yeah, they get a paycheck, but would you risk your life just for money...they do it for the same reason soldiers do it...because it means something to them.

you on the other hand, are a first class asshole, who means nothing to me...you are the first person to say "Fuck Them", but i am sure you would also be the first one to cry about them not being around if you needed them

[DaddyTorgo]

I've known plenty of good cops. I'm sure there are plenty of bad ones too though.

I always go out of my way to be "nice" to cops. If I'm in Starbucks at the same time as one I'll buy them a drink, etc. Not because I want special treatment - I just figure that they get shit on most of their shift (esp. when they're doing traffic stops) so they could use a smile.

But then again I'm white and I spend most of my time in affluent suburbs. If I wasn't white and I lived in an area where there was more crime & a stronger, more intrusive police presence I have a feeling I'd feel differently.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This stuff doesn't really surprise anyone in this area. STL has always been a very polarized and segregated metro area. It's one of those things that everyone in that city knows, but they just won't admit to knowing it. It doesn't mean all STL people are bad, but this was bound to happen eventually.

[cuervo72]

That outlook makes sense, panerd. Because all 21,000 residents of Ferguson are looters.

(Silly me, of course they aren't. Just 70% of them.)

[saldana]

please note, i do not agree with everything that is going on in Ferguson right now...they are stepping over lines that make them no better than the rioters.

i was responding directly to Jeff's blanket and ignorant statement

[gstelmack]

It's like they are preparing for the ZOMBAY APOCALYPSE. Not a peaceful protest.

Are these pictures from before or after the looting? If before, then I agree. If after, the "peaceful" part was long gone from these protests.

[lungs]

It doesn't mean all STL people are bad

Yes they are, look at their baseball team for crying out loud! :devil:

[molson]

so what did i do instead...i became a 911 dispatcher...for 8 and a half years i became the first voice that thousands of people heard when they needed help.

and in case that wasnt enough, i became an EMT, so that when i wasnt picking up the phone, i was going to the peoples houses to try to save their lives.

the entire time i was doing that, i still wanted to be a cop.


My god, you sound like some kind of monster.

I wonder what jeff061's job is that makes him so morally superior to you. Probably runs an orphanage or something.

[Young Drachma]

I understand what you are saying but my point is more about Joe Schmoe from the St. Louis County Police Department. He sees the ticker tape parade for Boston, gets to wear fatigues and hold a sniper rifle without having to actually serve in a combat zone, and is held in high regard by most. I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

(Again not defending this point of view, I really hold both overzealous cops and looting rioters in very low regard but it is reality here in St. Louis)

Probably because the cops are more likely to be your neighbors than the neighbors of anyone in Ferguson.

[Calis]

There's a really good book on this subject called Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko which I highly recommend. It's not a bash job, it puts forth the onus that bad policies make bad cops, and I think that's more accurate than taking extreme views of the people that become cops.

It's also just a great overview in general of the militarization over the last 40-50 years specifically.

[jeff061]

My god, you sound like some kind of monster.

I wonder what jeff061's job is that makes him so morally superior to you. Probably runs an orphanage or something.

I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

[Logan]

Seems like Senator McCaskill is doing a pretty good job conveying the message that the police need to de-militarize the situation.

[panerd]

That outlook makes sense, panerd. Because all 21,000 residents of Ferguson are looters.

(Silly me, of course they aren't. Just 70% of them.)

I never said that or said I agreed with the viewpoint I see in my area but I also see no reason to put my head in the sand either and act like a lot of the residents of the county are outraged at the huge police presence. Go no futhur than the comments section of any St. Louis website and you will see what I am talking about.

[Logan]

I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

I know this is the internet and everything, but this isn't helpful. There's no need to put forth such blanket statements during such a tense situation. It's posts like this that cause someone else to start a "when will the reign of terror end?" thread.

[molson]

I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

What do you do for a living? What makes you better than saldana? (and me, if people who work in law enforcement in any capacity are just as guilty)? Who do you help?

[DaddyTorgo]

There's a really good book on this subject called Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko which I highly recommend. It's not a bash job, it puts forth the onus that bad policies make bad cops, and I think that's more accurate than taking extreme views of the people that become cops.

It's also just a great overview in general of the militarization over the last 40-50 years specifically.

I think this is important to note - it's not that bad people become cops or all cops are bad - it's that the policies (and yes, the surplus military equipment) provided to cops has sent them down this path (obviously a blanket statement, not all cops are down it, and not all cops are good).

[jeff061]

I know this is the internet and everything, but this isn't helpful. There's no need to put forth such blanket statements during such a tense situation. It's posts like this that cause someone else to start a "when will the reign of terror end?" thread.


Fair enough.

[saldana]

I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

yup...thats me...authoritarian zealot...i have no internal drive to help other people at all...thats why now i facilitate the distribution of clinical trial drugs to underdeveloped countries that have substandard health care.

i am a horrible horrible human being...douche.

[cuervo72]

I never said that or said I agreed with the viewpoint I see in my area but I also see no reason to put my head in the sand either and act like a lot of the residents of the county are outraged at the huge police presence. Go no futhur than the comments section of any St. Louis website and you will see what I am talking about.

Of course they're not outraged - they most likely do support the police here, because the police are serving to protect them by controlling and containing the black people in Ferguson.

In part of their coverage last night, NBC showed footage at a local gun shop, where sales were way up since the weekend. It sure as heck wasn't because people needed to arm themselves to protect themselves against government oppression. They wanted to arm themselves because oh shit, the blacks are getting riled up.

[Subby]

Are these pictures from before or after the looting? If before, then I agree. If after, the "peaceful" part was long gone from these protests.
No one loses their rights to peaceful assembly after a riot has occured.

[molson]

Probably because the cops are more likely to be your neighbors than the neighbors of anyone in Ferguson.

I don't know to what extent it's been attempted (I know it has is some places), but I've always thought police departments should more aggressively recruit in their own communities, particularly minority ones. Law enforcement is such a great career track for people who have societal and economic strikes against them, because you don't necessarily need a college degree, or to travel somewhere else, or to have gone to the greatest public school, etc, the qualifications are more practical. It's still not easy or anything but if someone manages to get through high school without getting in trouble, and has aptitude for law, and the right demeanor, and some of the tactical skills, they'd be a great candidate. And of course it would do wonders to break down some of the hostility in these communities. It's not about affirmative action, it's about more effective policing and better relationships with communities. Of course there will be resistance by a lot of people to join the police (and they'll be mocked by people like jeff061 for being poor), but even the recruiting process could make a difference in terms of positive outreach.

[gstelmack]

No one loses their rights to peaceful assembly after a riot has occurred.

After one "peaceful protest" turns into a night of looting, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

Too many people in this country forget that with freedom comes responsibility, and if you don't use your freedoms responsibly, you tend to lose them.

Now, all the stuff about "turn off your cameras" I get, that's stupid on the police's part. Not defending everything they are doing, but as with nearly everything else involved in this and similar stories, the pictures posted here are missing an awful lot of context. The police do have the job of defending the town from the looters.

[JPhillips]

Too many people in this country forget that with freedom comes responsibility, and if you don't use your freedoms responsibly, you tend to lose them.

So if you loot a store I am no longer allowed to protest?

How far does this collective responsibility go? All the people in Ferguson? All blacks? All U.S. residents?

[Subby]

After one "peaceful protest" turns into a night of looting, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

Too many people in this country forget that with freedom comes responsibility, and if you don't use your freedoms responsibly, you tend to lose them.
You don't lose your constitutional right to peaceably assemble. People rioting and looting do not invalidate those rights.

That doesn't even speak to the larger issue that we should not have guns drawn and pointed at peaceful protestors. We have context because unless every single reporter on the ground there is lying, this is what is happening there.

[jeff061]

and they'll be mocked by people like jeff061 for being poor
Oh come on. I'm exiting from this discussion as much as I can, because it's clear I posted with emotion and the end result was me unintentionally trolling.

But that is soooo far from the mark. I don't even know where you got it from.

[Lathum]

I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

I really hope you are never in a situation where you need the help of one of these authority craving lowlifes. I pray you never have a daughter get raped, or a son get stabbed, or any of the other countless number of situations a police presence would have prevented.

[Lathum]

But then again I'm white and I spend most of my time in affluent suburbs. If I wasn't white and I lived in an area where there was more crime & a stronger, more intrusive police presence I have a feeling I'd feel differently.

Maybe a more intrusive police presence is needed in those areas because so many of the residents are criminal scumbags who have no regard for the laws the rest of us live by? Yet that makes the police the bad guys. Got it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So if you loot a store I am no longer allowed to protest?

If your protest seems likely to incur additional risk to the community given the volatility of the situation then your "right" does have some limitations. At some point you wander into "fire in a crowded theater" territory.