Theology/ Ideology question for the board

[CU Tiger]

The recent boxings and subsequent debate in the Obama thread made me spend some time actually analyzing my own feelings on some things and it occurred to me I may be mentally negotiating from a point of at least partial ignorance. As such I am going to reach out to the variety of cultural and belief systems we compose and ask for your assistance.

I'm hopeful (though possibly doubtful) this can stay a civil and academic conversation without personal attacks.

My question centers around the beliefs of the Muslim/Islamic Religion. (First as I understand it Muslim and Islam are synonymous so if that is factually inaccurate maybe someone correct me there before I go too far off course)

I think the background I bring to this conversation is necessary to ensure any personal bias is unintentional and transparent. As such I was raised a Roman Catholic, spent much of my formative years in a Catholic boarding and reform school. I am married to a Southern Baptist. I have attended services extensively of Methodists, Epsicopalian, non-denominational, Presbyterian, and Church of God for study and evaluation. I have read and study Buddha, more for an understanding and knowledge than a practicing theology. So I have a variety of experience but mostly it falls in the Christian sphere. I would guess that the majority of my "friends" are atheist or agnostic, and I have plenty of questions and doubt myself. In short I am a spiritually confused puppy.

I have heard many things about Muslims and the Islam religion. I even many years ago attempted to read the Quran. I have since been told that the true Quran can not be translated from Hebrew and as such what I read was a sham and inaccurate.

Ok back story aside. Whenever a Christian vs Islam debate comes up, both sides are usually quick to point out the atrocities carried out by followers of the other in the name of their "Deity". One core difference I have heard repeatedly, and frankly its the meat of the question I have here, is that the teachings of Allah are that all humans are to either be converted or eliminated. This is frequently touted as the core difference. Christians will claim they have atrocities among their followers but the followers are acting in spite of the scriptural teachings, because Jesus taught "Turn the other cheek", while they will accuse that Muslims committing these acts are in fact carrying out the teachings of the Quran. The presumption being that one is "good" at its core and mis-used while the other is "evil" to the core.

So I got to thinking when it was pointed out that we have several Muslims on the board, (I eschew social media as a whole and do not have FB or Twitter and as such only "know" the small handful of members I have had the pleasure of meeting in person here) and given the intellectual nature of this place as a whole. I'd love to get the intelligent opinion of those members ,and any other more learned than I, is that an accurate description of the teachings of Allah? Does the Muslim religion actually teach eradication of non-believers or is that a gross mis-statement of the belief?


***I want to make one final disclaimer here. I am in no way attempting to troll or start any war here. I am truly asking for the opinion of people who I respect and "e-trust" with the hope of further my personal education and also clarifying my spiritual beliefs. I do not write this with a pre-disposed expectation or a pre-canned prepared response. Hopefully this is an ok discussion topic, if not and its deleted Ill understand. If anyone prefers to comment anonymously Ill gladly exchange PMs as well.***

[ISiddiqui]

I have since been told that the true Quran can not be translated from Hebrew and as such what I read was a sham and inaccurate.

Arabic. And its fine to read an English translation of it.

is that an accurate description of the teachings of Allah? Does the Muslim religion actually teach eradication of non-believers or is that a gross mis-statement of the belief?

It's listed in the Quran, but also in the Quran it speaks of Christians and Jews as "People of the Book". I think the idea of eradication of non-believers is basically a misstatement - or rather it was applying to a context of that story. For most of Muslim history, Islamic rulers allowed Jews and Christians to live in Kingdoms they controlled (though mandated they pay a high tax). They definitely didn't eradicate them, nor banish them. European Christian countries did do so with Jews and Muslims (Spain and England come to mind), so it wasn't like exile was unheard of - but Muslim Empires generally did not do so. Baghdad for one was a center of Jewish learning in the early 1000s.

[AENeuman]

Christians will claim they have atrocities among their followers but the followers are acting in spite of the scriptural teachings, because Jesus taught "Turn the other cheek", while they will accuse that Muslims committing these acts are in fact carrying out the teachings of the Quran. The presumption being that one is "good" at its core and mis-used while the other is "evil" to the core.


I think in general you can say any popular ancient religious texts have passages that, when carried out, will result in destruction/evil.

For example, the Spanish Requirement used on the New World. From wiki:
"A member of the conquistador’s force would read El Requerimiento in Castilian before a group of Indians on the shore, who, with or without translation, remained uncomprehending. All the region’s inhabitants were thus considered to have been advised of Spain’s religious and legal rights to conquest and forewarned of the consequences of resisting

As the Spanish Requirement matter-of-factly sets forth, so brazenly from five centuries’ retrospect, God created heaven and earth, and the first man and woman from whom all are descended. God directed St. Peter to establish the Roman Catholic Church. St. Peter’s descendant, the Pope, lives in Rome. The Pope has given the New World territories to the King of Castile and directed the conversion of the Indians. If they listen carefully, the Indians will understand and accept what is happening as just; if not, Spain will make war on them."

I think there are ingredients necessary for evil religious acts to be carried out. First is quality of life, second is authoritarian rule, and third is a convenient enemy. Unfortunately, these ingredients are nearly always present.

So, I would argue that most, if not all, religious atrocities are more of an example of corrupt political structures run by a few selfish leaders (on the backs of the needy).

[Izulde]

It's also a misunderstanding of what jihad actually is - it's not a kill the unbelievers sort of thing as some extremists have claimed. It actually refers mostly to the struggle/effort/striving within oneself to be a good Muslim.

Where these splinter groups are making justification for attacks are the provision in Islam that war is only to be used defensively, if members of the faith are being persecuted or suppressed. I think you can see where the adventures of the imperial powers keep providing more material for these guys, and helping out that rhetoric.

Islam is the religion; Muslim is the follower of Islam - so not precisely synonymous.

The whole Arabic thing is one of those things where theoretically Arabic is the only true language of Islam (because the angel dictated the Quran to Mohammed in Arabic), but most Muslims recognize that's simply not workable in practice - hence the translations.