Reporter and Cameraman Murdered During Live TV Broadcast

[Subby]

The video is widely available and extremely upsetting. Shooter still at large as of this posting.

Gunman Murders Two Virginia Reporters in Attack Broadcast on Live TV (http://gawker.com/gunman-fires-shots-at-virginia-news-crew-during-live-re-1726593659)

[Logan]

Don't watch the video. I wish I didn't.

[Subby]

I watched it without sound and it is still fucking awful.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Given the circumstances, it has to be a revenge killing, likely a former boyfriend or stalker. Amazing that the camera managed to get a shot of the killer as it laid on the ground.

2 Virginia television journalists fatally shot in on-air attack - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/2-virginia-television-journalists-fatally-shot-in-on-air-attack-2015-8)

[EagleFan]

I heard the person being interviewed was also shot and is in critical condition.

[heybrad]

Don't watch the video. I wish I didn't.
+1 Horrific.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I heard the person being interviewed was also shot and is in critical condition.

Didn't see that. Thanks. Probably doesn't change the motivation. Just trying to get rid of witnesses. From the video, it's pretty clear the female reporter was the first one targeted.

[EagleFan]

I heard that they did get a still from the video that shows the shooter. Hopefully that will help catch the bastard. Not going to watch the video, not something that I need to see and can't "unsee" it (unless I can find a memory worm).

[Subby]

Both people murdered were engaged to other employees at the station.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Watching <a href="https://twitter.com/brianstelter">@brianstelter</a> on CNN - says camera guy engaged to morning producer and today was her last day, there was a party at the station.</p>&mdash; Noah Coslov (@NoahCoslov) <a href="https://twitter.com/NoahCoslov/status/636524572204998656">August 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We didn't share this publicly, but <a href="https://twitter.com/AParkerWDBJ7">@AParkerWDBJ7</a> and I were very much in love. We just moved in together. I am numb. <a href="http://t.co/tUrHVwAXcN">pic.twitter.com/tUrHVwAXcN</a></p>&mdash; Chris Hurst (@chrishurstwdbj) <a href="https://twitter.com/chrishurstwdbj/status/636531364356063232">August 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Subby]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I am comforted by everyone at <a href="https://twitter.com/WDBJ7">@WDBJ7</a>. We are a family. She worked with Adam every day. They were a team. I am heartbroken for his fiancee.</p>&mdash; Chris Hurst (@chrishurstwdbj) <a href="https://twitter.com/chrishurstwdbj/status/636532678632861696">August 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
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[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I heard that they did get a still from the video that shows the shooter. Hopefully that will help catch the bastard. Not going to watch the video, not something that I need to see and can't "unsee" it (unless I can find a memory worm).

The photo is in the link I shared.

[Subby]

Looks like he is wearing a mask - maybe just the shadowing.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1402610050242551842.png

[Subby]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WDBJ photographer Adam Ward's fiancé Melissa Ott was in the control room -- she saw the shooting happen live.</p>&mdash; Brian Stelter (@brianstelter) <a href="https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/636537678025068544">August 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[PilotMan]

I'm not going to watch that video. This is just too awful of a story. Something pulled from a movie and nothing that I'd ever want to watch.

[ISiddiqui]

God that's awful :(.

The Governor apparently said it may have been a disgruntled former employee at the station... which, adds more wtf to this.

[EagleFan]

I can't imagine what their family and friends just went through, to potentially have been watching that happen live.

[cartman]

Given the circumstances, it has to be a revenge killing, likely a former boyfriend or stalker.

From the video, it's pretty clear the female reporter was the first one targeted.

Please, just stop. Jumping to conclusions and making definitive statements is a fool's errand at this point.

[Young Drachma]

Yeah I'm not watching it. But so heartbreaking. Hope it doesn't inspire copycats.

[Grover]

Please, just stop. Jumping to conclusions and making definitive statements is a fool's errand at this point.

Welp, they have said it's a former employee of the station.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Welp, they have said it's a former employee of the station.

Yeah, at least that's what the Governor is on TV saying.

And discussion about the likely motive is pretty relevant / justifiable given concerns about terrorism & the like. This had "domestic" written all over it from the get-go afaic.

[murrayyyyy]

it's not a mask, that's his face. Vester Flanagan

vester flanagan - Twitter Search (https://twitter.com/search?q=vester+flanagan&ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Esearch)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought this was a nice gesture, not surprising in a very small market like this one. Station GM says "a nearby TV station that is normally a competitor is covering other, unrelated news and will share video with the station"

edit to add: I should probably note that this was mentioned in connection with the fact that the employees at the victim's station have been told to remain locked down inside their building until the shooter is caught.

[Easy Mac]

Ummm, that really is that dude's twitter account if you look for it. He just posted a video of the shooting, handheld video... Messed up.

[Subby]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Virginia State Police ID suspect as Vester Flanagan, former <a href="https://twitter.com/WDBJ7">@WDBJ7</a> employee. <a href="https://twitter.com/AParkerWDBJ7">@AParkerWDBJ7</a> seated to his left on pic. <a href="http://t.co/QQJaYoh2iJ">pic.twitter.com/QQJaYoh2iJ</a></p>&mdash; Chris Wragge (@ChrisWragge) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisWragge/status/636555949789081602">August 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Ben E Lou]

Holy cow. Thsi was at Bridgewater Plaza at Smith Mountain Lake. We were there on vacation last summer. My in-laws used to own a place there. I have eaten in that shopping area many times.

[Grover]

Can't believe he posted a video of himself killing them. Horrific.

[Subby]

Twitter just locked the account down, thank god. I saved a screenshot of his tweets leading up to the two videos.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Shooter was hired back in 2012

Williams joins WDBJ as a multimedia journalist and general assignment reporter. He has worked as a reporter at a number of stations throughout the South, including WNCT in Greenville, NC, WTWC in Tallahassee, and WTOC in Savannah
WDBJ Adds Two Veteran Reporters | TVSpy (http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wdbj-adds-two-veteran-reporters/46832)

[BillJasper]

Twitter just locked the account down, thank god. I saved a screenshot of his tweets leading up to the two videos.

Thanks. Do you care if I share it on another board I post on?

[Subby]

Thanks. Do you care if I share it on another board I post on?
Nope.

Facebook still up last I checked.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And, in the modern era, finding his LinkedIn was easy.
Originally from San Francisco apparently

Bryce Williams | LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bryce-williams/69/2a4/ba7?trk=seokp-title_posts_secondary_cluster_res_author_name)

edit to add: Since I posted, it's been taken down.

Wasn't a lot in it that we haven't heard already, a couple of stints as a bank teller & working in the fraud dept of a bank (BoA I think maybe) after his first TV gigs in California. And a mention of him running some sort of vaguely marketing/p.r. business that appeared to be a one-man band kind of thing.

[Grover]

I've a feeling they won't take him alive.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yeah, at least that's what the Governor is on TV saying.

And discussion about the likely motive is pretty relevant / justifiable given concerns about terrorism & the like. This had "domestic" written all over it from the get-go afaic.

It was a total no-brainer. It wasn't robbery. It wasn't a random killing as he knew it was being shown on TV when he did it. It had every ear-mark of a revenge killing. All they had to do was figure out who would be mad at these people or the station. Of course, he outed himself on Twitter and took care of that detective work.

[Schmidty]

Sometimes I wish someone would just shoot me, because I can't this world much longer. :(

[EagleFan]

What a piece of shit that person is. He should suffer, badly.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here's the video leading up to the shooting as filmed by the shooter. No shots fired on the video, but he whispers 'bitch' as he raises the gun and points it at the woman. Chilling stuff.

Bryce Williams (Vester Flanagan) Filmed the Shooting of Reporter and Photographer in Virginia - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIdrUHKkG6Y)

[murrayyyyy]

What a piece of shit that person is. He should suffer, badly.

Odds with this going to be suicide either by cop or himself. -150. He won't suffer at all.

[Chief Rum]

So wait, is Vester Flanagan a fake name for Bryce Williams? Haven't gone looking outside of FOFC yet for news on this. This is nuts.

Edit: Nevermind, MBBF made the reference above

[Chief Rum]

Sometimes I wish someone would just shoot me, because I can't this world much longer. :(

World needs more people like you, sir, not less.

[cartman]

So wait, is Vester Flanagan a fake name for Bryce Williams? Haven't gone looking outside of FOFC yet for news on this. This is nuts.

Other way around.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So wait, is Vester Flanagan a fake name for Bryce Williams? Haven't gone looking outside of FOFC yet for news on this. This is nuts.

I think it's the other way around.

Bryce was his air name, Vester is his real name (or so it appears)

[Chief Rum]

I think it's the other way around.

Bryce was his air name, Vester is his real name (or so it appears)

Ah of course, that makes sense.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here's the rest of the video. He literally stood there for 20-25 seconds with his gun raised pointed at the woman. All three people involved with the interview were so focused on their job that they never even were fully aware of what he was doing only feet away. And once he started firing, he just kept firing.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j5j5u_7iAE)

Edit: Video taken down for obvious reasons.

[murrayyyyy]

and he faxed them a 23 pg manifesto last night. Here's a clue, if someone every sends you a manifesto, call the cops immediately...

[Easy Mac]

and he faxed them a 23 pg manifesto last night. Here's a clue, if someone every sends you a manifesto, call the cops immediately...

To be fair, it was a fax, so they probably didn't see it.

*attempt at levity*

[NobodyHere]

Has anyone ever been convinced of anything ever written in the manifesto of a murderer? I mean if you're dumb enough to throw your life away over what is probably some pretty petty reason people are going to question your judgement.

Granted there's probably some mental illness involved as well.

[Subby]

He killed himself when confronted by police on I-66 in VA.

[Subby]

Man suspected of killing two WDBJ7 employees kills himself on I-66 in Fauquier Co. | Local News - WDBJ7.com Central and Southwest VA (http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/law-enforcement-investigating-incident-at-bridgewater-plaza/34923086)

[Easy Mac]

Yet another idiot who messed up the order of killing people. If you feel like you're going to kill yourself after killing people, just kill yourself first.

[murrayyyyy]

Game on! He's not dead yet, (in critical condition)

[NobodyHere]

Game on! He's not dead yet, (in critical condition)

...who, when he seemed about to recover, suddenly felt the icy hand of death upon him...

[EagleFan]

He needs to feel the spiny hand of suffering before the icy hand of death...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Game on! He's not dead yet, (in critical condition)

Go figure. Kills others and then can't figure out how to kill himself.

[cartman]

The shooter is downgraded back to dead.

[Butter]

The original video, even though none of the killing is actually visible, is still pretty effed up. I am still nauseous from watching it 3 hours ago.

Feel so bad for the victims and families... Anyone who was watching that station at the time is scarred for life.

[Chief Rum]

The shooter is downgraded back to dead.

Sounds like an upgrade to me.

[Julio Riddols]

Goodness, man. I'm with those who think a manifesto should have been enough of a warning. This is some sad, cold, evil stuff.

[Dutch]

Haven't seen the footage...but I know its terrible. Sad day.

[Grover]

Haven't seen the footage...but I know its terrible. Sad day.

Don't watch it. It's fucked me up for the day, to say the least.

[CU Tiger]

Im amazed at how long he stood there gun pointed before firing or being noticed

[GoldenEagle]

The original video, even though none of the killing is actually visible, is still pretty effed up. I am still nauseous from watching it 3 hours ago.

Feel so bad for the victims and families... Anyone who was watching that station at the time is scarred for life.

You would have to think that was probably his intention, to scare those at the station.

[RainMaker]

Sounds like the guy was a huge narcissist. Failed at everything in his life and tried to blame it on racism. Reminds me a bit of the Elliot Rodger guy who blamed women for all his problems and wrote out a manifesto of his own.

Maybe it's always been this way but it sure feels like we're breeding more and more of these narcissists that turn on society at some point.

[jeff061]

Sounds like the guy was a huge narcissist. Failed at everything in his life and tried to blame it on racism. Reminds me a bit of the Elliot Rodger guy who blamed women for all his problems and wrote out a manifesto of his own.

Maybe it's always been this way but it sure feels like we're breeding more and more of these narcissists that turn on society at some point.

There are more and larger soapboxes these days and the media makes sure to reward these scums with the attention they desire(while future killers take note). I don't think there are more crazies, just a larger carrot for less effort.

[Butter]

Social media is a haven for narcissists. It is a medium where it is all about them 24/7, whether or not anyone is paying attention.

Not saying social media caused this whatsoever, but it is certainly a platform of which this guy was clearly quite aware.

[NobodyHere]

Looks like this was a racially motivated hate crime.

[tarcone]

I always wondered when someone would be shot on live TV.
World is full of insane people.

Just can't understand people killing people.

[molson]

I wonder where he was planning on driving to.

It's always amazing to me how quickly the police are usually able to catch people they really want to find considering how big and rural this country is, and the fact that there's so much private property. Of course, they usually get a lot of help from the person they're chasing. I'd say a major highway (at the peak of the manhunt) still in the area would be just about the worst place to be. Of course, it was more important to him to get on facebook and tell us how he was the victim than it was to have a plan here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wonder where he was planning on driving to.

It's always amazing to me how quickly the police are usually able to catch people they really want to find considering how big and rural this country is, and the fact that there's so much private property. Of course, they usually get a lot of help from the person they're chasing. I'd say a major highway (at the peak of the manhunt) still in the area would be just about the worst place to be. Of course, it was more important to him to get on facebook and tell us how he was the victim than it was to have a plan here.

I don't get a real sense he felt like he needed (or wanted) much of a long-term plan. Unless you've got a jet to a non-extraditing country waiting with the engine running, your odds of just disappearing from something like this are pretty low I figure.

[booradley]

+1 Horrific.

Interesting how different people's perceptions can be. While everyone at work agreed that this was a terrible event, everyone also agreed that the video footage was benign. And I work with all different sorts of folks (marketing firm).

Don't misunderstand me though - I don't discount your feelings. It just seems that the reactions I read on the internet never seem to jive with the reactions of people I interact with daily (family, co-workers, friends). 9-11 was another prominent example. And the Charleston shootings. Maybe we're just a hardened bunch in NC/VA. Shrug ...

[lighthousekeeper]

Interesting how different people's perceptions can be. While everyone at work agreed that this was a terrible event, everyone also agreed that the video footage was benign. And I work with all different sorts of folks (marketing firm).

Don't misunderstand me though - I don't discount your feelings. It just seems that the reactions I read on the internet never seem to jive with the reactions of people I interact with daily (family, co-workers, friends). 9-11 was another prominent example. And the Charleston shootings. Maybe we're just a hardened bunch in NC/VA. Shrug ...

it was like an episode of the A-Team: there was shooting, getting shot, running, and falling but no blood

[JonInMiddleGA]

Don't misunderstand me though - I don't discount your feelings. It just seems that the reactions I read on the internet never seem to jive with the reactions of people I interact with daily (family, co-workers, friends) ...

This one seems to be all over the board with reactions best I can tell.

I haven't watched, feel no need to see it frankly. But I mostly {shrug} if somebody chooses to watch.

By the same token, we all react to different stresses differently. I've got numerous friends in the TV/media business who are pretty shaken up by the story ... on the other end of the spectrum I cracked at least a couple of inappropriate "too soon?" type jokes here at home after the gunman shot himself. I'm sure the badly shaken folks would have been mortified but we all react to stress in our own way.

Same thing with the anchorman finance guy tweeting throughout a good bit of the morning. I suspect there will be people who question that but I looked at it as him going on auto-pilot (he described himself as "numb") and his instincts took over and sent him to social media. I don't have any problem with that but I figure the snark about it will be forthcoming.

[heybrad]

Interesting how different people's perceptions can be. While everyone at work agreed that this was a terrible event, everyone also agreed that the video footage was benign. And I work with all different sorts of folks (marketing firm).

Don't misunderstand me though - I don't discount your feelings. It just seems that the reactions I read on the internet never seem to jive with the reactions of people I interact with daily (family, co-workers, friends). 9-11 was another prominent example. And the Charleston shootings. Maybe we're just a hardened bunch in NC/VA. Shrug ...
I get what you're saying but I would suggest that my horror at what I saw has nothing to do with blood and guts or anything like that. It's a real video of someone losing their life. I can watch any number of movies with violence and not care one bit because I know it's fake. The idea of witnessing a human life being taken is just horrific to me and the stupidity for me is I knew that going in and never should have watched it.

[Butter]

Interesting how different people's perceptions can be. While everyone at work agreed that this was a terrible event, everyone also agreed that the video footage was benign. And I work with all different sorts of folks (marketing firm).

Don't misunderstand me though - I don't discount your feelings. It just seems that the reactions I read on the internet never seem to jive with the reactions of people I interact with daily (family, co-workers, friends). 9-11 was another prominent example. And the Charleston shootings. Maybe we're just a hardened bunch in NC/VA. Shrug ...

I guess it's benign if you can view it as just something that happened and not put yourself in the shoes of the people getting shot. I mean, this is a man holding a camera falling over dead and a woman screaming for her life, unsuccessfully.

Sure, there is no gore, but that doesn't mean it wasn't affecting.

You want gore, go watch the Budd Dwyer footage. Shit's fucked up bad, man. Real bad.

[Chief Rum]

I get what you're saying but I would suggest that my horror at what I saw has nothing to do with blood and guts or anything like that. It's a real video of someone losing their life. I can watch any number of movies with violence and not care one bit because I know it's fake. The idea of witnessing a human life being taken is just horrific to me and the stupidity for me is I knew that going in and never should have watched it.

I used to have a roommate who loved those Faces of Death videos or whatever from back in the day. I generally avoided watching them, but I did catch the end of one which showed a woman getting hit and thrown by a train. Pretty much disappeared out of camera view and you could see no blood whatsoever.

And yet having seen that video still disturbs me to this day.

[heybrad]

I used to have a roommate who loved those Faces of Death videos or whatever from back in the day. I generally avoided watching them, but I did catch the end of one which showed a woman getting hit and thrown by a train. Pretty much disappeared out of camera view and you could see no blood whatsoever.

And yet having seen that video still disturbs me to this day.
When my wife and I were first married we used to go to Disneyland all the time. One night we witnessed a guy commit suicide by jumping off the top of the Disneyland hotel. It was probably 20 years ago but it's still a vivid memory for me and one of the worst things I've ever seen.

[rowech]

I have not watched this video because I was forever scarred after seeing the Dwyer video from I think the 1970s when he shot himself on live TV. Sounds like this video isn't even close to that which is the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. Strongly suggest that if you've never seen it that you keep it that way. I only mention it because people are acting as if this is the first time something like this has happened.

[Suicane75]

Dwyer thing happened in the early-mid 80's. I remember I was either home from school or home for lunch and my mom had the news on. Even as a little kid it was surreal.

[panerd]

Just sat down to watch the Mr. Robot finale and saw that it apparently had a scene just like what happened today and they pulled it. Wonder if it was a newsperson being shot on camera or just an overeaction with someone being killed? I'm lost on this show anyways so it gives me one more week to prepare to be even more confused.

[Easy Mac]

I have not watched this video because I was forever scarred after seeing the Dwyer video from I think the 1970s when he shot himself on live TV. Sounds like this video isn't even close to that which is the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. Strongly suggest that if you've never seen it that you keep it that way. I only mention it because people are acting as if this is the first time something like this has happened.

I was telling someone about that video today. That was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life. Even thinking about his life less face gives me an empty feeling in my body.

[Radii]

Just sat down to watch the Mr. Robot finale and saw that it apparently had a scene just like what happened today and they pulled it. Wonder if it was a newsperson being shot on camera or just an overeaction with someone being killed? I'm lost on this show anyways so it gives me one more week to prepare to be even more confused.

Quote from a TV critic who has seen the episode, it doesn't reveal anything more than we already know/assume, but spoilered just in case people are trying to avoid info on this at all costs:


Alan Sepinwall (hitfix TV Critic) quote on this: "This is both extremely unfortunate and absolutely the right call. I've seen the episode and the scene in question. No one would be able to think about anything but Virginia after it."

[lighthousekeeper]

when i watched the nick berg beheading video 10+ years ago, whatever part of me that has emotional responses to videos died.

[sabotai]

I used to have a roommate who loved those Faces of Death videos or whatever from back in the day. I generally avoided watching them, but I did catch the end of one which showed a woman getting hit and thrown by a train. Pretty much disappeared out of camera view and you could see no blood whatsoever.

And yet having seen that video still disturbs me to this day.

I've gone through brief periods of time where I become...obsessed isn't the right word, but somewhat close to that, with watching videos like that . The other 99% of the time, I really hate myself for doing it and wish I could unsee and unhear them.

[Suicane75]

I watched all the FOD videos when I was a teenager and for whatever reason, the only image that stuck with me was the people dining on live monkey brains.

[BishopMVP]

There are more and larger soapboxes these days and the media makes sure to reward these scums with the attention they desire(while future killers take note). I don't think there are more crazies, just a larger carrot for less effort.I haven't watched the video, don't judge anyone who has because we all have that morbid curiosity at times or to a degree, but I'm disgusted at how easy it is to watch it. I don't want blanket censorship when something like this happens, but it should at least be something someone has to actively search for instead of showing up as a link in mainstream news stories. It's also so hypocritical how everywhere phrases it as "Warning: NSFW... you probably shouldn't watch this CLICK HERE FOR THE VIDEO!!!" It's yellow journalism at it's apex, literally profiting from the violent death of someone, while if anything actually increasing the likelihood of a copycat crime going forward.

[molson]

I've gone through brief periods of time where I become...obsessed isn't the right word, but somewhat close to that, with watching videos like that . The other 99% of the time, I really hate myself for doing it and wish I could unsee and unhear them.

I've definitely seen my share of crazy death and injury videos. It was never the gore I found interesting, it was just the drama and intensity, I guess. It was also interesting and scary to see how things can go wrong in an instant. I didn't feel I was gawking, so much, I did feel bad for the innocent people (of course, plenty of others had it coming, depending on the scenario). But that was part of the experience too. Reading an article about an incident doesn't make me feel that sad after you've read a million of them, but seeing a video can take you a different place of understanding the fear, the experience, what it might be like.

I never felt bad after I saw something like that, it just made me feel everything more - sadness, fear, etc

I could never watch beheadings or anything with animals though. But even with the latter, if it's some kind of sad, but not super-goreish thing you see linked on facebook or something, I do watch even though its difficult, because I want to be someone who knows what's going on and can be inspired to help in any small way I can. Like I want to be pissed about what Idaho farm employees were doing to cows when they were secretly being taped, etc, I don't want to pretend that doesn't exist and gleefully eat my burger, etc. In the same way, I do want to be truly shocked and pissed at those who take others' lives in an instant. And it's easy to become a little dull or jaded to that, especially in my line of work.

[Julio Riddols]

Me too, Suicane... Except I only ever watched the one with that scene on it. The whole time I had this feeling of dull sickness looming over me, but that scene made me stop watching.

[stevew]

Thank god I never saw the Bud Dwyer thing when I was a kid.

[stevew]

Iirc, the Dwyer thing happened on a snow day.

[booradley]

God bless ... Karma's a bitch. A high school bud was assaulted and suffered 8 broken bones in his face. The picture he posted ... THAT got me. Guess I'm not so hardened after all ... :(

[Fidatelo]

In regards to how everyone handles these sort of things differently, a co-worker of mine was talking casually about the news video this morning, and so I asked if he had watched the one taken by Flanagan (I haven't watched any of them myself). He hadn't, but immediately pulled it up on his phone and watched. His first comment was how surprised he was that Flanagan was able to stand there unseen for so long (as several people have mentioned earlier in this thread). His next comment was "gee, that guy had really poor aim! He had to shoot so many times from so close!".

It was kind of funny and I love an inappropriate joke as much as anyone, but I was amazed he was able to go there so swiftly after watching something like that. My brother can do stuff like that too, just immediately see the dark humor even in situations that most would find too emotional. I remember in high school telling my brother that a friend of mine's father had passed away the night before. There was a brief silence before he remarked "well, I guess we won't be seeing him at the Father-Son picnic this year".

[sabotai]

I watched the killer's video. I think a lot of people who did don't realize that his camera is zoomed in quite a bit. When he goes to shoot, his arm is stretched out. And during the live footage when the cameraman's camera falls to the ground, you can see him walking in from a shaded area.

As for dark humor...yeah, I do that a lot too. It's just a defense mechanism to keep the emotional thoughts away. For example, I was watching the news one day with a friend of mine. The story was that a kid had drowned in a pool and the newscaster said the kids were trying to see who could hold their breath under water the longest. So of course, I had to say "I guess she won." I mean, who really wants to think about a kid drowning in a pool? I don't.

[lighthousekeeper]

It's always amazing to me how quickly the police are usually able to catch people they really want to find considering how big and rural this country is, and the fact that there's so much private property. Of course, they usually get a lot of help from the person they're chasing. I'd say a major highway (at the peak of the manhunt) still in the area would be just about the worst place to be. Of course, it was more important to him to get on facebook and tell us how he was the victim than it was to have a plan here.

Here's a clue:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/28/us/virginia-shooting-wdbj-bryce-williams-parker-adams/index.html

people sometimes forget or don't realize that we are carrying government locator devices on us almost all of the time.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Legal gun used that was purchased after a background check.........

Virginia Shooter Used Legal Gun, Passed Background Check | Mediaite (http://www.mediaite.com/online/virginia-shooter-used-legal-gun-passed-background-check/)

[Dutch]

Legal gun used that was purchased after a background check.........

Virginia Shooter Used Legal Gun, Passed Background Check | Mediaite (http://www.mediaite.com/online/virginia-shooter-used-legal-gun-passed-background-check/)

I knew it wasn't his fault.

[cartman]

http://thesockeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/guns-mental-health-care.jpg

[RainMaker]

From what I gather he had access to mental health professionals at the station. Was even told to seek help from his boss.

I understand that the mental health cry is the talking point of the week for the left, but in many of these shootings the individual was insured and had access to mental health services. What you'd be looking for is forcing people into mental health services, not giving more "access".

[cartman]

From what I gather he had access to mental health professionals at the station. Was even told to seek help from his boss.

I understand that the mental health cry is the talking point of the week for the left, but in many of these shootings the individual was insured and had access to mental health services. What you'd be looking for is forcing people into mental health services, not giving more "access".

That is a bit dismissive to call it a "talking point of the week". It has been mentioned numerous times over quite a long period of time (note the timestamp on the cartoon). It does seem that mentally unstable people are using firearms in many of these mass shootings, no?

[NobodyHere]

From what I gather he had access to mental health professionals at the station. Was even told to seek help from his boss.

I understand that the mental health cry is the talking point of the week for the left, but in many of these shootings the individual was insured and had access to mental health services. What you'd be looking for is forcing people into mental health services, not giving more "access".

My guess is that he took being asked to go seek mental help as an insult. I think that most people would take it as an insult instead of seeking help.

[molson]

What you'd be looking for is forcing people into mental health services, not giving more "access".

I'd be kind of curious to see some proposed "round up the weirdos and lock 'em up" legislation.

It's actually been a point of emphasis at some police trainings I've been to - proposals/thoughts to more aggressively utilize the power the government already has to detain and treat people against their will. I think most agencies are really reluctant to use that power (it costs a lot of money, and there's backlash from the family and the community, and many are wired to just let the weirdos do their thing until they're actually violent), but I think it definitely should be utilized somewhat more. I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions.

[RainMaker]

That is a bit dismissive to call it a "talking point of the week". It has been mentioned numerous times over quite a long period of time (note the timestamp on the cartoon). It does seem that mentally unstable people are using firearms in many of these mass shootings, no?

They are, but that cartoon implies that it's happening because getting mental health care is an insurmountable feat to acquire. And this narrative gets pushed a lot after these shootings.

The guy in this shooting had access to mental health care. In fact, many of these mass shooters were getting mental health treatment.

Like I said, the issue seems to be less about "access to mental health care" and more about "forcing people into mental health care".

[cartman]

I think another take could be people who need mental care/are under mental care maybe shouldn't have unfettered access to firearms.

[RainMaker]

I'd be kind of curious to see some proposed "round up the weirdos and lock 'em up" legislation.

It's actually been a point of emphasis at some police trainings I've been to - proposals/thoughts to more aggressively utilize the power the government already has to detain and treat people against their will. I think most agencies are really reluctant to use that power (it costs a lot of money, and there's backlash from the family and the community, and many are wired to just let the weirdos do their thing until they're actually violent), but I think it definitely should be utilized somewhat more. I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions.

My Grandfather was a manic depressant. When he'd go into a manic stage, he was a completely different person. He didn't sleep for days, he'd get paranoid, he one time called the phone company and had 5 extra lines put in for some reason.

Anyways, my family was powerless to do anything to stop it. He didn't want to get help and the police would say there is nothing they could do. One officer actually did pull family aside at one point and said it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for them to claim he struck them.

One time he was committed involuntarily though. He had set a small fire in a garbage can in his office and was burning old documents. My Grandmother called the police and they took him in claiming he was trying to burn down the house. It was a stretch but it got him committed and he got some help.

I agree with what you're saying though. It's a really tough position to be in. When do you cross the line into involuntary holds? Should we have to wait till crimes are committed?

[cartman]

My Grandfather was a manic depressant. When he'd go into a manic stage, he was a completely different person. He didn't sleep for days, he'd get paranoid, he one time called the phone company and had 5 extra lines put in for some reason.

Anyways, my family was powerless to do anything to stop it. He didn't want to get help and the police would say there is nothing they could do. One officer actually did pull family aside at one point and said it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for them to claim he struck them.

One time he was committed involuntarily though. He had set a small fire in a garbage can in his office and was burning old documents. My Grandmother called the police and they took him in claiming he was trying to burn down the house. It was a stretch but it got him committed and he got some help.

I agree with what you're saying though. It's a really tough position to be in. When do you cross the line into involuntary holds? Should we have to wait till crimes are committed?

Would you be ok with your grandfather being able to acquire a firearm while he was in that state, or knowing he easily could enter that state? Or would you support some kind of measures that would make it more difficult for him to be able to do so?

[RainMaker]

I think another take could be people who need mental care/are under mental care maybe shouldn't have unfettered access to firearms.

I agree with that. I just don't think that's what the cartoon is saying.

It also would have had no bearing on this shooting as the individual had refused to seek mental health care.

[Dutch]

I think another take could be people who need mental care/are under mental care maybe shouldn't have unfettered access to firearms.

I don't actually know anybody who disagrees with this.

[cartman]

I don't actually know anybody who disagrees with this.

And there seems to be fuck-all done to do anything about it.

[RainMaker]

There are federal guidelines and many state laws that prohibit the sale to mentally ill individuals.

But I think it's a lot trickier than you're implying. Where is the line drawn at? Is anyone who sees a therapist banned or only select individuals? Is this information stored in a database somewhere? Are you comfortable with the government having this kind of database somewhere? I'd like to see some changes but no one seems to have realistic ideas that would keep the public happy.

[molson]

I don't actually know anybody who disagrees with this.

It's not a simple solution, and it carries its own dangers. People who value their gun rights would have to choose between those rights, and seeing a therapist and treating their mental illness. Which one will they choose?

Or maybe it's just "really crazy" people that would be denied access to guns. But that's already the law. There does have to be some civil commitment, or some judicial determination that someone falls under that category. And that doesn't happen unless you get forced into the government system in way - usually by committing a crime. Lots of people in that category do get denied weapons. I think its the second most common reason for denial after misdemeanor domestic violence convictions. If we want to expand that category, how do we do it? I know New York is experimenting with a requirement to require psychiatrists and psychologists to report patients they think are dangerous to the government. Maybe that will help broaden the category, maybe it will just encourage people to be less forthcoming with their treatment providers (or to avoid them altogether). Maybe it's still worth it to try, but everyone on the internet who think they have all the answers is full of shit.

[cartman]

It is pretty damn clear that the current line/laws aren't working, and need to be tightened up from where they are today.

[RainMaker]

It is pretty damn clear that the current line/laws aren't working, and need to be tightened up from where they are today.

Tightened up where? This is the problem with most of the gun debate. No one has real ideas, just vague statements.

[cartman]

Tightened up where? This is the problem with most of the gun debate. No one has real ideas, just vague statements.

And anytime someone does come up with something, it is immediately shot down as unworkable. The plan to have background checks to cover all gun purchases, while no means a panacea but a small step in the right direction, was criticized and rejected. If something like that, which has widespread support, can't be enacted, what hope is there for other measures?

[bhlloy]

Reading more about the 23 page manifesto sent to ABC has me wondering if there was a chance to stop this and I wonder how many nutjobs send things like that to major media outlets?

A step in the right direction would seem to be some sort of nationwide taskforce that the public (or just public figures) could be educated about and could work with local authorities to check things out maybe? It's not the first time a manifesto has been sent before the fact. They knew where this guy lived and that he'd threatened the people at his previous job, I'd be willing to this could have been prevented if there'd been someone to seriously look at it. I dunno, maybe it's not workable and the volume of lunatics sending manifestos and making threats would very quickly overwhelm it. But given the level of surveillance and intelligence we have on everyday citizens (and look how quickly they found him from the phone once they knew who they were looking for) it seems workable. Just need somebody to connect the dots.

And to answer Rainmakers question, yes, you have a database. There are hundreds of databases the government has. I can't believe this can't be another one. Beyond the old "my gun is the only thing standing between this government and tyranny so they shouldn't know I have it" I can't see an argument against it. You don't think the CIA and FBI have every detail of your mundane life in a database somewhere?

[stevew]

I literally think it's impossible to stop whackos from getting guns and since the gun culture refuses to change this shit is just going to keep happening.

The only possible way something like this probably doesn't happen is if people in that dude's life show a bit of concern for his (probably) alarming increase in dangerous behaviors and thoughts.

Shit, my cousins husband was a cop and got murdered by a crazy dude who had once had his firearms seized, but since he was sorry they gave him his guns back. Then he killed his wife, himself and Paul a few years later.

[Suicane75]

The answer is a gun ban. A complete ban on the production of new guns and a complete ban on the ownership of guns outside of law enforcement. That's the answer. Impossible to enact, but it's the only answer.

[RainMaker]

The answer is a gun ban. A complete ban on the production of new guns and a complete ban on the ownership of guns outside of law enforcement. That's the answer. Impossible to enact, but it's the only answer.

The vast majority of murders in this country are committed by individuals who are not legally allowed to own a gun (felons and juveniles). So this solution would not impact them. It would not drive our murder rate down significantly.

You'd also need to have some teeth behind these laws. But the same people who are for gun control are also the same people screaming about the "school-to-prison pipeline".

[lighthousekeeper]

It would not drive our murder rate down significantly.

that is not the can-do attitude we need to enact suicane's plan

[nol]

I literally think it's impossible to stop whackos from getting guns and since the gun culture refuses to change this shit is just going to keep happening.

I mean, the percentage of households with guns keeps going down while the number of total guns in America is holding pretty steady. Telling gun manufacturers that wacko gun hoarders can't get more guns is like telling beer companies they can't advertise to sports fans.

[RainMaker]

As for my answer, it's layered.

1) Give much tougher sentences to violent criminals. Especially those who illegally possess a firearm. Much shorter leashes for career criminals who refuse to become functioning members of society. Tired of reading about murders where the suspect has 10 arrests under their belt. The goal here is to get guns out of the hands of the people who do commit the majority of murders and lock up those who are most likely to commit murders.

2) Your gun, your responsibility. If your child accesses your gun and shoots up some place, you are responsible for those murders. If you sell a gun illegally to someone who commits a crime, you go to jail for that crime too. No more slaps on the wrist. You allow illegal access to a weapon and you are an accessory.

3) Birth control. Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, particularly in communities that provide the most risk and you decrease the amount of murderers you create. Offer up free birth control to those who want it and actively target at-risk individuals who perhaps have a few children and are struggling with them.

4) Stiff penalties for deadbeat Dads. You don't want to support your kid growing up, you'll now be forced to work off your debt for the state. Picking up trash, cleaning sidewalks, whatever a neighborhood needs done until your debt is paid off to the Mother. Enough with these pieces of shit who have kids and bury the responsibility on everyone else in the community.

[RainMaker]

I mean, the percentage of households with guns keeps going down while the number of total guns in America is holding pretty steady. Telling gun manufacturers that wacko gun hoarders can't get more guns is like telling beer companies they can't advertise to sports fans.

Wacko gun hoarders aren't the ones driving up the murder rate in this country.

[nol]

Wacko gun hoarders aren't the ones driving up the murder rate in this country.

It's not being driven up, Einstein. The number of mass shootings is going up. It stands to reason that if fewer households see any need to have a gun, then the increased paranoia among hardcore gun nuts is keeping firearms dealers in business, and that's also the vocal minority against common-sense proposals like increased liability for gun owners or stricter background checks.

[Suicane75]

The vast majority of murders in this country are committed by individuals who are not legally allowed to own a gun (felons and juveniles). So this solution would not impact them. It would not drive our murder rate down significantly.

You'd also need to have some teeth behind these laws. But the same people who are for gun control are also the same people screaming about the "school-to-prison pipeline".

Listen, I'm not up for a long debate, but if you ban the manufacturing of guns, eventually, the number of guns will decrease to the point where it'd be near impossible to get one. A lot of innocent people will die (they are now anyway), in the first few years. Hell, maybe my thinking is selling it short and maybe it would be 5-10 years before any decline was noticed. But if you want to get rid of guns, you get rid of guns. Everything else is, pardon the pun, putting a band aid on a bullet wound.

1. Ban the making and manufacturing.
2. Law enforcement units dedicated to seizure.
3. Incentive laden turn in programs.
4. As harsh as you can make the penalties for those in possession.

[RainMaker]

It's not being driven up, Einstein. The number of mass shootings is going up. It stands to reason that if fewer households see any need to have a gun, then the increased paranoia among hardcore gun nuts is keeping firearms dealers in business, and that's also the vocal minority against common-sense proposals like increased liability for gun owners or stricter background checks.

So the focus should be on shootings that account for 0.2% of homicides in this country? And to combat that we somehow convince the people who are not committing the murders to stop buying guns?

[RainMaker]

Listen, I'm not up for a long debate, but if you ban the manufacturing of guns, eventually, the number of guns will decrease to the point where it'd be near impossible to get one. A lot of innocent people will die (they are now anyway), in the first few years. Hell, maybe my thinking is selling it short and maybe it would be 5-10 years before any decline was noticed. But if you want to get rid of guns, you get rid of guns. Everything else is, pardon the pun, putting a band aid on a bullet wound.

1. Ban the making and manufacturing.
2. Law enforcement units dedicated to seizure.
3. Incentive laden turn in programs.
4. As harsh as you can make the penalties for those in possession.

Are we banning it in other countries too? Because what you described is the approach we take toward drugs. It's led to other countries manufacturing and using a violent black market to distribute it across the country. And that doesn't account for the 300+ million already in the country which unlike drugs, can be used for maybe hundreds of years.

It would lower gun ownership in the country a lot, just not murders.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And to combat that we somehow convince the people who are not committing the murders to stop buying guns?

I don't think it's "convince them", sounds more like "prevent them"

And, y'know, the anti-gun crowd is more than welcome to try to pry them from a lot of fingers ... but seems fair to point out that those fingers are not cold nor dead.

[RainMaker]

I don't think it's "convince them", sounds more like "prevent them"


Their plans also have nothing to do with preventing gun deaths either. They just want the people on the other side of the political aisle to not be able to enjoy their hobby.

It's the reason their anti-gun rhetoric is always centered around "rednecks" when that group is not committing all that many murders. Not a lot of anti-gun individuals want to discuss inner-city violence which is the vast majority of firearm violence in the country. In fact, they push for eliminating policies that actually got guns off the street (stop-and-frisk).

[RainMaker]

I'd add that both sides do this. Pro-Life groups don't really care much about abortions as they'll routinely support policies that increase the number of abortions in this country (being against Plan B for instance). It's never been about abortions, it's about the other side having sex.

[Dutch]

There are four types of people in America that have guns.

1. Government
2. Citizens
3. Criminals
4. The Crazies

If we go after #4...should we also just go after #3 as well? Why is #2 the first place activists want to start? Because that's the only area they know they can affect. It wont make a damned thing better. I hear that South America is looking to add guns to their export market along side drugs. The inner city criminals don't care and would prefer unregistered guns anyway...and knowing the suburbs were unarmed would allow for expanding areas of control.

[Warhammer]

I'd add that both sides do this. Pro-Life groups don't really care much about abortions as they'll routinely support policies that increase the number of abortions in this country (being against Plan B for instance). It's never been about abortions, it's about the other side having sex.

It's about the other side taking responsibility for their actions. Many people that are anti-abortion are also anti-Plan B.

My belief is events like this would not be prevented by more gun control laws. If this guy could not get a gun, he would have used is car, a knife, or any other device he could get his hands on.

[JPhillips]

As for my answer, it's layered.

1) Give much tougher sentences to violent criminals. Especially those who illegally possess a firearm. Much shorter leashes for career criminals who refuse to become functioning members of society. Tired of reading about murders where the suspect has 10 arrests under their belt. The goal here is to get guns out of the hands of the people who do commit the majority of murders and lock up those who are most likely to commit murders.

2) Your gun, your responsibility. If your child accesses your gun and shoots up some place, you are responsible for those murders. If you sell a gun illegally to someone who commits a crime, you go to jail for that crime too. No more slaps on the wrist. You allow illegal access to a weapon and you are an accessory.

3) Birth control. Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, particularly in communities that provide the most risk and you decrease the amount of murderers you create. Offer up free birth control to those who want it and actively target at-risk individuals who perhaps have a few children and are struggling with them.

4) Stiff penalties for deadbeat Dads. You don't want to support your kid growing up, you'll now be forced to work off your debt for the state. Picking up trash, cleaning sidewalks, whatever a neighborhood needs done until your debt is paid off to the Mother. Enough with these pieces of shit who have kids and bury the responsibility on everyone else in the community.

And you want to criticize others for plans that are unrealistic and unworkable?

[CU Tiger]

Listen, I'm not up for a long debate, but if you ban the manufacturing of guns, eventually, the number of guns will decrease to the point where it'd be near impossible to get one. A lot of innocent people will die (they are now anyway), in the first few years. Hell, maybe my thinking is selling it short and maybe it would be 5-10 years before any decline was noticed. But if you want to get rid of guns, you get rid of guns. Everything else is, pardon the pun, putting a band aid on a bullet wound.

1. Ban the making and manufacturing.
2. Law enforcement units dedicated to seizure.
3. Incentive laden turn in programs.
4. As harsh as you can make the penalties for those in possession.

Are we banning all guns this way or just handguns?
Not that I think either is reasonable, but I am curious how you expect folks in rural areas to protect their family and property from such things as coyotes, bears, wolves, bobcats etc.
Ive said it here before, lots of people are isolated to their world. I live way in the sticks. My kids have lost 3 pet dogs in the last few years to coyotes (and these dogs were 2 labs and a great dane, not talking about chihuahuas here) we have killed ~30 coyotes this year alone.

By your logic should I be forced to move?

Or are shot guns ok for personal defense (again from animals not humans) and hunting purposes or are we just getting rid of all guns?

And finally what to do about 3D printers. People are printing guns at home now. How do you stop that?

Hell I have a plasma table and a welder and a router in my basement, if needed I could build a gun myself...it would take some time and wouldnt be as nice as a stock piece, but if it was the only option I bet I could get a lot of money for it and all of a sudden I may be interested in perfecting my craft

[Dutch]

The big disconnect here in rural life vs inner city life vs suburban life.

I'd argue that taking guns away from rural area would be bad since they have a functional use and taking them away from the inner city would be bad because lots of good, honest people have them for protection. And we focus on suburbia.

[molson]

And you want to criticize others for plans that are unrealistic and unworkable?

I've think we've already seen a ton of progress in #1 and #3. #1 is a great, realistic goal along the lines of what Clinton proposed to get the assault weapon ban. Conservatives support gun rights, but they also generally support harsh criminal sentences.

#2 and #4 are pretty contrary to the American criminal justice generally, and might be unconstitutional.

[RainMaker]

And you want to criticize others for plans that are unrealistic and unworkable?

Some would be met with resistance (ironically by the people who claim to want to reduce firearm deaths). #1 just increases the sentencing guidelines for these crimes. #2 is just adding to the existing laws making the punishment tougher for illegal sale of your weapon. #3 doesn't seem hard at all to implement. And #4 is just enforcing laws that are already on the books.

[RainMaker]

It's about the other side taking responsibility for their actions. Many people that are anti-abortion are also anti-Plan B.


If it's about taking responsibility for their actions, they wouldn't make it difficult to access birth control. Pro-Life movement hasn't been about reducing abortions in some time. Just as the gun control movement hasn't been about reducing murders in some time.

[digamma]

Just stop, RainMaker.

[Warhammer]

If it's about taking responsibility for their actions, they wouldn't make it difficult to access birth control. Pro-Life movement hasn't been about reducing abortions in some time. Just as the gun control movement hasn't been about reducing murders in some time.

It's not hard to get birth control. Go up to the corner store and get a pack of condoms. Not only do you protect against pregnancy, you protect against STDs as well.

[RainMaker]

It's not hard to get birth control. Go up to the corner store and get a pack of condoms. Not only do you protect against pregnancy, you protect against STDs as well.

Depends on the birth control. Pro-Life groups made it incredibly difficult to access Plan B and are still fighting for it's removal. These same groups are trying to get birth control removed from health insurance plans and from being given out in school.

If you're anti-abortion, you're for the things that reduce abortions. You support air dropping condoms into neighborhoods if it means less.

[ISiddiqui]

Are we banning it in other countries too? Because what you described is the approach we take toward drugs. It's led to other countries manufacturing and using a violent black market to distribute it across the country. And that doesn't account for the 300+ million already in the country which unlike drugs, can be used for maybe hundreds of years.

It would lower gun ownership in the country a lot, just not murders.

Then why aren't European countries facing the same gun black market leading to tons of murders?

Interestingly enough the statistics say that European countries tend to have the same level of crime than the US does. The US just has more guns, hence we have more death as a result of those crimes:

America doesn’t have more crime than other rich countries. It just has more guns. - Vox (http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe)
A landmark 1999 study actually tried to answer this question. Its findings — which scholars say still hold up — are that America doesn't really have a significantly higher rate of crime compared to similar countries. But that crime is much likelier to be lethal: American criminals just kill more people than do their counterparts in other developed countries. And guns appear to be a big part of what makes this difference.

[RainMaker]

Then why aren't European countries facing the same gun black market leading to tons of murders?
[/url]

They are not bordering an incredibly violent, corrupt 3rd world country.

That and much different demographics from the United States.

[Dutch]

And to be fair.

U.S. Leads the World in Illegal Drug Use - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-the-world-in-illegal-drug-use/)

We have 4 times as much illegal drug use to the next closest country. Perhaps because our southern neighbors make it so viable. Europe is bordered by the med and those fairly strict Muslims that usually only sell illegal stuff to fund terrorism.

[Warhammer]

Depends on the birth control. Pro-Life groups made it incredibly difficult to access Plan B and are still fighting for it's removal. These same groups are trying to get birth control removed from health insurance plans and from being given out in school.

If you're anti-abortion, you're for the things that reduce abortions. You support air dropping condoms into neighborhoods if it means less.

But those groups fighting for the removal of Plan B are doing so because of how it prevents pregnancy. It is not preventing the egg from being fertilized, it does it by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. For the groups that believe life starts at conception, this is the same as aborting the baby. In their eyes, Plan B = abortion.

[molson]

The US just has more guns, hence we have more death as a result of those crimes:


Do you really think that the amount of guns is the only reason the U.S. has a higher crime rate that most European countries (or even the most important reason)?

Then why has the U.S. violent crime rate decreased by more than half since the early 90s when the total number of guns has increased, and when the % of people owner owning guns has decreased some, but not by half? And I don't think that decrease in the % of people who owns guns was caused by any stricter gun control or anything. So we've had that dramatic decrease with minimal changes in gun control laws. Yet that is still promoted and the the absolute most important thing. The fact that those numbers don't line up or make sense though, supports my belief that a good chunk of the anti-gun rage (not the reasonable proposals to improve the situation), isn't motivated at all my reducing crime, it's more an expression of dislike towards the people who value gun rights. Those people - the rural law-abiding gun owners who vote Republican are the ones targeted, as opposed to criminals who a more likely to own their guns illegally anyway.

And why does my gun-nut state of Idaho rank in the bottom 8 states of violent crime rate? I'm not saying our guns MAKE us safe, but it's clear that there's other social and economic and cultural and environmental (lead paint) factors beyond guns. I also think it's still an open question how much higher incarceration rates have played a part in our dramatic reduction of crime. I know people REALLY don't want that to be true, but in studies that proclaim to debunk the link, usually the best they can show is that states with greater incarceration increases have, on average, decreased their crime as a slower rate than the states that haven't. But I believe that longer incarceration of people that commit violent crimes have helped, in at least some places. I know people want to focus on the drug stuff, but we incarcerate a ton of violent and dangerous people.

I also tend to doubt that if the UK or Germany had more guns, they'd suddenly kill each other 5-6 times as often to match the U.S. violent crime rate. And I also wonder if the gun purchasing boom of the Obama administration has directly resulted in a higher crime rate, and specifically, are THOSE people who bought because of fears of more gun restrictions committing gun crimes?

Maybe our violent crime rate would decrease some if we could either decrease the number total guns or the % of people who are gun owners (I personally don't think it would, unless maybe you had a total gun ban, i.e., "war on guns" - we certainly have that playbook), but there's all kinds of other rights we could scale back to make us safer to. Maybe expand NSA and lets local law enforcement officers do more domestic spying. What good is a pesky thing like a constitutional right if we can be more safe?

[molson]

It's not hard to get birth control. Go up to the corner store and get a pack of condoms. Not only do you protect against pregnancy, you protect against STDs as well.

Could you get condoms free and anonymously at school in the 80s and earlier? I think that has made a huge difference. Teenagers don't want to buy condoms at 7/11. And teen pregnancy rates have decreased pretty dramatically since the 80s (along with crime rates). Sex education efforts, and the whole movement to take those issues out of the shadows have really paid off I think. As had more access to abortion (Edit: though actually looking at it now, abortion rates have actually DECREASED as the teen pregnancy/life birth rate has also decreased.) So I think there is still more access to abortions in some places, but young people are clearly making better choices to begin with.

[JPhillips]

Could you get condoms free and anonymously at school in the 80s and earlier? I think that has made a huge difference. Teenagers don't want to buy condoms at 7/11. And teen pregnancy rates have decreased pretty dramatically since the 80s (along with crime rates). Sex education efforts, and the whole movement to take those issues out of the shadows have really paid off I think. As had more access to abortion (Edit: though actually looking at it now, abortion rates have actually DECREASED as the teen pregnancy/life birth rate has also decreased.) So I think there is still more access to abortions in some places, but young people are clearly making better choices to begin with.

Reduced air lead levels almost certainly plays a part here. If we were serious about inner city lead abatement in buildings we could further reduce rates. Add that to increased availability to birth control and we could really make a difference.

[miked]

The idea that pro-lifers actually care about life seems silly. If they did so, they would focus on plans that actually prevented unwanted pregnancy. Look at the study in Colorado where they gave teenagers (and younger folks) IUDs and birth control pills. Abortions and teen pregnancy plummeted. Instead they hand their hats on abstinence only educations, which has proven to be worse.

If they were serious about dignifying the sanctity of life, they would provide free prenatal care to poor women, make adoptions a lot easier, and put in plan support systems for pregnant teens/women. Instead they cut off funding for these things because they are "handouts" and then get mad when people have stupid unprotected sex.

We looked in to adoption and were told it could cost over $50k and we still could get stonewalled. WTF.

[Dutch]

Maybe we should only allow intelligent people to vote.

[BillJasper]

Maybe we should only allow intelligent people to vote.

Then no one would be voting. :lol:

[RainMaker]

But those groups fighting for the removal of Plan B are doing so because of how it prevents pregnancy. It is not preventing the egg from being fertilized, it does it by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. For the groups that believe life starts at conception, this is the same as aborting the baby. In their eyes, Plan B = abortion.

That's not how Plan B works. There are many studies to back it up.

[Dutch]

Then no one would be voting. :lol:

:)

[EagleFan]

Maybe we should only allow intelligent people to vote.

I like the idea of allowing me to make all of the decisions, what a perfect world it would be.

[Jughead Spock]

Here's a clue:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/28/us/virginia-shooting-wdbj-bryce-williams-parker-adams/index.html

people sometimes forget or don't realize that we are carrying government locator devices on us almost all of the time.

It was a rental car. Let's not get too tin-foil-hat here.

[Butter]

It would not drive our murder rate down significantly.

that is not the can-do attitude we need to enact suicane's plan

I admit I laughed.

[CU Tiger]

It was a rental car. Let's not get too tin-foil-hat here.

And that has what to do with a cell phone exactly?

[jeff061]

Is it news to anyone that a cell phone signal can be tracked? They have had the tech(Stingray) for a long time, the only question is if they abuse it.

[Jughead Spock]

And that has what to do with a cell phone exactly?

My bad, I thought the implication was that they tracked the car.

But yeah, no surprise that anyone/everyone can track cells. Can't have privacy and service/convenience.

[Edward64]

What an ass.

Vester Lee Flanagan II complained about his lack of sex | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3216957/When-heads-stop-turning-s-AWFUL-TV-gunman-complained-lack-sex-lamented-glory-days-2-000-night-prostitute-suicide-letter.html)
The cold-blooded killer who gunned down two of his former colleagues on live TV last week was afraid of getting older and worried that his days as a $2,000-a-night male prostitute were over.

Vester Lee Flanagan II revealed his insecurities in a suicide letter and last phone call to close friend Robert Avent, of Vallejo, California.

Avent spoke with Flanagan just moments before the 41 year old committed suicide on Wednesday, while he was being chased by police.

Four days after the double murder-suicide, Avent received a package from Flanagan containing old photographs and letters which give insight into his mind in the lead-up to the on-air executions.

[korme]

This guy on my Facebook feed keeps posting these links that suggest this is all a big hoax. I mean, come on, can you show any less respect?

[Dr. Sak]

My bad, I thought the implication was that they tracked the car.

But yeah, no surprise that anyone/everyone can track cells. Can't have privacy and service/convenience.

The interesting thing is that you don't even have to have your cell on to be tracked. As long as you have the battery in the phone, it can be used to locate you. That's how they were able to track and locate that cop killer in the PA woods last year.

Chalk that up as interesting things you learn as you spend a lot of time in a car traveling with a State Policeman.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What isn't commonly known is that this same technology can be used to not only track the location of phones, but the historical location of phones. So just pull up a map, draw a polygon, and find out which phones were within that area at the time of the murder.

I've seen this multiple times on 'The First 48'. It's amazing how many times they debunk an alibi by checking the 'ping' records of cell phones that the accused had with them at the time of the crime. If I'm a criminal, I'm making sure my cell phone is left at home when I commit the crime.

[lighthousekeeper]

I've seen this multiple times on 'The First 48'. It's amazing how many times they debunk an alibi by checking the 'ping' records of cell phones that the accused had with them at the time of the crime. If I'm a criminal, I'm making sure my cell phone is left at home when I commit the crime.

^ quoted for future deposition

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

^ quoted for future deposition

-1

:D