What the hell. . . Texas HS Ref gets drilled

[TroyF]

Thought I had seen just about everything.

Then I see this video of a Texas HS football game:

San Antonio HS Football Players Hit Referee on Video: Latest Comments, Reaction | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2562066-san-antonio-hs-football-players-hit-referee-on-video-latest-comments-reaction)

ugh.

[NobodyHere]

The kid needs to be charged with assault.

[Grover]

The kid needs to be charged with assault.

Battery, actually. Assault is the threat, battery is the action. Both kids should be charged, kicked off the team and expelled from school.

[TroyF]

The kid needs to be charged with assault.


Both kids. I missed it the first time I watched it. The second kid dives in and hits the ref when he's down. Just sick.

[Atocep]

The kid needs to be charged with assault.

Both. The 2nd speared the ref.

It's probably safe to say these 2 never play HS football again. I'd be a bit surprised if the coach wasn't suspended as well.

[JPhillips]

The investigations also needs to look at the staff. If this was suggested or ordered the coaches are just as responsible as the players.

[NobodyHere]

Both kids. I missed it the first time I watched it. The second kid dives in and hits the ref when he's down. Just sick.

I missed it the first time as well.

[TroyF]

The investigations also needs to look at the staff. If this was suggested or ordered the coaches are just as responsible as the players.

My first question as an investigator would be this: "At what point did you kick both players off of the football team"

If the response is anything other than "20 seconds after I got back to the locker room," the coach should be fired.

[Young Drachma]

Deplorable. Coaches should be held responsible too unless they truly had no knowledge, which knowing the culture of football I find hard to believe.

[NobodyHere]

Battery, actually. Assault is the threat, battery is the action. Both kids should be charged, kicked off the team and expelled from school.

Just from quick googling it would be considered assault in Texas, and hitting a sports official is at least a class B misdemeanor carrying a penalty of up to 180 days in jail or a fine up to $2000, or both.

/armchair lawyer

[RainMaker]

I have to wonder if a coach had some say in this. Doesn't seem like something two pkayers come up with on their own.

[molson]

Just from quick googling it would be considered assault in Texas, and hitting a sports official is at least a class B misdemeanor carrying a penalty of up to 180 days in jail or a fine up to $2000, or both.

/armchair lawyer

Ya, Texas, New York and probably a few other states are "backwards", going against the older legal meaning of those terms.

But ya, he should be charged with whatever they charge in Texas for striking innocent people with no justification.

[TroyF]

I have to wonder if a coach had some say in this. Doesn't seem like something two pkayers come up with on their own.

I'm in the middle on this. Is it beyond two kids to come up with something on their own? I mean, 16 year olds CAN and DO make their own decisions and they also don't always think clearly. I don't think holding the adult accountable is really worthwhile until we get more information.

That's why my question is above. How quick were they kicked off the team? Or have they been kicked off the team yet and they will be only because of the video? I want to see the coaches reaction to it because that will tell me most of what I need to know about the coaches agreement with the act.

[Sweed]

Holy shit that is just terrible.

Players banned from playing again and the coach's job should be on the line unless there is a convincing explanation from the players and those on the sidelines he had no knowledge or was involved in any way. Did coach pull those two kids to the side at some time and have a conversation? Did anyone on the sideline see or hear anything implicating the staff? Not sure they can make a case that coach wasn't involved in a believable way but to be fair I suppose one has to listen and then decide. Maybe the coach really had no clue?

[MizzouRah]

As a youth soccer referee, I find that very disturbing. Banned from all HS sports for sure and a full investigation and possible charges for battery and some serious consulting. I hope the referee is ok, he could have been seriously hurt.

Hopefully the other referees stopped the game right there and that team would get a forfeit and asked to leave immediately with the players involved/coaching staff held by police.

[thesloppy]

Considering that 2 Jay players had already been ejected, even ignorance doesn't seem like a good excuse for those kids' coaches. Their team was already out of control, and either they didn't notice, didn't do anything to stop it from advancing further, or they sanctioned the attack on the ref.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Deplorable. Coaches should be held responsible too unless they truly had no knowledge, which knowing the culture of football I find hard to believe.

I dunno about that, I mean, I've seen some things where it would be totally believed.

Then again, I watched as seniors on an 0-10 team physically assaulted their own coaches in an incident so violent that police charged the field to break it up.

Given that, you see why I can believe pretty much anything is possible.

[rowech]

My first year coaching varsity soccer I took over for a team that had won four games the year before. We went 12-3-1 and were the number one seed in the district. During that year, I had a great player who we played at sweeper because it was best for the team. He could have played offense but we were better with him in the back. We got him on offense as we could. During one game, he made a bad mistake and cost the team a goal. He stormed off the field refusing to go back in until I played him on offense.

Next day at practice I told him he could either turn in his uniform and be done or try and earn back his starting job but know that he would be playing sweeper. He agreed and I told him anything else happened and he would be off the team.

He earned his staring spot back after about two weeks and then three games after that he was fouled. While setting the ball he purposely stepped on the kid who had fouled him as he was still on the ground. The official told him he must not have a brain in his head. I subbed him and for the rest of the game he mumbled how the official couldn't talk to him like that and that he would get an apology.

I go up into the stands and ask his parents to take him home or know we might have to physically restrain him. They tell me to do what's needed. Game ends and he goes towards ref on a sprint. I grab him and hold him back and he gets away. Assistants do the same. We all watch as he goes and pushes the ref yelling f-bombs, etc. After the game the super, AD, and principal talk to me and I tell them I'll be kicking him off the team tonight. They ask me to sleep on it to make sure it's what I want to do.

Next day we have a meeting with the AD, parents, and player. AD starts backing off some and puts the decision on me when kid and parents ask for another chance. I refuse, they storm out. Cost the team district title for sure and likely a regional appearance at least. End of season I win a coach of the year award as voted on by other coaches for the turn around in my first year and showing you can do what's right.

Next season is down as we knew it would be as we only had two seniors and one of them didn't start. We had ten of eleven starters for two years and I put them in positions I wanted them to be in and ratcheted up the schedule to some tough, tough opponents and bigger schools knowing we would struggle. We went 5-11 but the growth was fantastic and I knew the following year we were going to be ouststsnding. Made mention of this at the sports banquet.

Three days later I was fired by the AD. Later I would find out from a former player that the most influential parents got together a petition and had me removed because I had cost the team the previous year and could not win the second year.

A year off and I decided to apply for another position and upon not getting the job I asked why. I was told the previous AD I worked for gave a negative review.

In two years, I went from coach of the year doing the right thing to fired because I didn't put winning first essentially. The lesson I learned is that doing the right things only work if you're winning. If you upset the wrong people you will pay the penalty at some point.

[Thomkal]

So was the ref hurt?

[JonInMiddleGA]

The lesson I learned is that doing the right things only work if you're winning.

At the risk of a sidebar, at the end of the day, winning is the job.

We're going through some of that (sort of) locally with a coach that is one of the finest people in many respects I've seen in the business. Problem is that, bottom line, he appears to be unable to win under any circumstance (with all scrappers, with a roster built around a star, with a roster that contains a star that defers to role players).

As basketball coaches go he's a great P.E. teacher but it's painfully obvious that he isn't a winning basketball coach. (we're talking about going on two decades here). It's a situation I've seen before too, again a fine fellow that simply lacked the ability to coach winning basketball in any scenario.

All the fine fellow stuff in the world only goes so far, winning is the job. Winning within the rules & a reasonable framework of personnel management is the optimal situation.

edit to add: I'm also watching what looks like the beginning of the opposite situation that'll play out over a couple of years at a nearby school as well. The football HC is an unlikable ass by pretty much every account I've ever heard, but he's 79-24 at a school that went 1-19 when it opened under a different HC. He's had a major run of talent during his tenure but now that well is dry and their 0-2 start this year feels like the beginning of several down years to come. I'd put his chances of survival beyond next season as being very low. His personality was tolerable with region titles, very likely much less tolerable without them.

[miami_fan]

I'm in the middle on this. Is it beyond two kids to come up with something on their own? I mean, 16 year olds CAN and DO make their own decisions and they also don't always think clearly. I don't think holding the adult accountable is really worthwhile until we get more information.

That's why my question is above. How quick were they kicked off the team? Or have they been kicked off the team yet and they will be only because of the video? I want to see the coaches reaction to it because that will tell me most of what I need to know about the coaches agreement with the act.

While I get what you are saying, I think we have all the information that we need. In three separate incidents, the coach had 4 players ejected from the game. Outside of a brawl (which actually resulted in the suspension of the game IIRC), I don't think I have ever seen that many players from the same team ejected in one game. The coach has to be held accountable for not being able to control the kids under his control.

[JeeberD]

There's a post in the Deadspin comments from someone claiming to be a John Jay player and saying that the ref called some of the players a racial slur. If that's true, it's deplorable...but report the ref to the appropriate governing body and let them handle it. By taking it into their own hands the kids have likely ended their football careers, may face criminal charges, and may wind up getting their coach in trouble, too.

Of course, no one has ever tried to say that high school boys are the most rational beings on the planet.

[dawgfan]

There's a post in the Deadspin comments from someone claiming to be a John Jay player and saying that the ref called some of the players a racial slur. If that's true, it's deplorable...but report the ref to the appropriate governing body and let them handle it. By taking it into their own hands the kids have likely ended their football careers, may face criminal charges, and may wind up getting their coach in trouble, too.

Of course, no one has ever tried to say that high school boys are the most rational beings on the planet.
It's almost certain that the ref did something of the sort. There's no way those kids do that unless there was some form of provocation.

This isn't to defend them in any way either - they deserve to be booted, prevented from playing again and charged with assault, the whole deal. That's not how you resolve whatever issue they had with that ref.

But I'd be very surprised if that ref didn't have a pretty good idea of why he was targeted.

[TroyF]

There's a post in the Deadspin comments from someone claiming to be a John Jay player and saying that the ref called some of the players a racial slur. If that's true, it's deplorable...but report the ref to the appropriate governing body and let them handle it. By taking it into their own hands the kids have likely ended their football careers, may face criminal charges, and may wind up getting their coach in trouble, too.

Of course, no one has ever tried to say that high school boys are the most rational beings on the planet.


The question now is if there is any proof. Did the other team hear it? Does the ref have any other instances of racist behavior in his history?

Either way, it doesn't really change my opinion of what was done and I always love how this is used as some sort of excuse for violence.

Let me add, if it can be proven the ref said something, he should lose his job instantly. I'll wait until I hear the rest.

[Easy Mac]

Is it just me, or were the players lined up extremely deep, especially if the other team is running out the clock. I would think the coach would have noticed and we would have seen someone yelling to them if the sideline wasn't in on it.

[digamma]

Am I the only one who can't stop watching the thing?

Obviously a pretty brainless thing to do.

[PilotMan]

The moral of this story is Zidane should have never retaliated. No matter what that asshat said about his family.

[TroyF]

While I get what you are saying, I think we have all the information that we need. In three separate incidents, the coach had 4 players ejected from the game. Outside of a brawl (which actually resulted in the suspension of the game IIRC), I don't think I have ever seen that many players from the same team ejected in one game. The coach has to be held accountable for not being able to control the kids under his control.


You could easily be right. A high school team with that many guys kicked out is out of control. Just a horrible situation all the way around.

[TroyF]

The moral of this story is Zidane should have never retaliated. No matter what that asshat said about his family.

What was that story? The other guy said something about nailing his sister or something?

As great of a player as he was, what a moron.

[stevew]

Am I the only one who can't stop watching the thing?

Obviously a pretty brainless thing to do.

Oh yeah, totally.


From a strictly "Humor" standpoint, I keep wanting the other DB to swoop in at the last second and go low synchronized with the other guy going high.

And obv both kids should be banned from all HS sports

[tarcone]

I want to see what the consequences are for all parties. If someone sees it, please inform.

I could see the program being suspended. This is an out of control situation and an embarrassment to the HS.

Horrible.

[PilotMan]

What was that story? The other guy said something about nailing his sister or something?

As great of a player as he was, what a moron.

Zidane head butt story, reason, statue & video | Football Bible (http://www.football-bible.com/soccer-info/zidane-head-butt-story.html)

[judicial clerk]

I disagree with dawgfan that the ref almost certainly did something along the lines of a racial slur to provoke this. I remember a couple years ago an umpire was hit in the face on purpose in a girls softball game on the order of the coach because they did not like the umpire's calls. There is video of that incident as well and it reminds me of this.

Sometimes kids are dumb/bad and some coaches are assholes.

[RainMaker]

There's a post in the Deadspin comments from someone claiming to be a John Jay player and saying that the ref called some of the players a racial slur. If that's true, it's deplorable...but report the ref to the appropriate governing body and let them handle it. By taking it into their own hands the kids have likely ended their football careers, may face criminal charges, and may wind up getting their coach in trouble, too.

Of course, no one has ever tried to say that high school boys are the most rational beings on the planet.

That also seems to be the excuse everyone uses when people get caught fucking up. Believe Marcus Smart tried to say the same thing until a video was released showing he was lying.

Either way, it's a bitch move to hit someone from behind like that. At least man up and do it face to face.

[SteveMax58]

That also seems to be the excuse everyone uses when people get caught fucking up. Believe Marcus Smart tried to say the same thing until a video was released showing he was lying.

Either way, it's a bitch move to hit someone from behind like that. At least man up and do it face to face.

+1

And to add...in my experience the likelihood of the "racial slur from the ref" is in direct contrast to the level of "bitch move" that is done. Or in other words, the bigger the cheapshot, the less likely the person was to deserve it.

[PilotMan]

It doesn't matter what, if anything was said, it's a bullshit move done by losers.

[Sweed]

I disagree with dawgfan that the ref almost certainly did something along the lines of a racial slur to provoke this. I remember a couple years ago an umpire was hit in the face on purpose in a girls softball game on the order of the coach because they did not like the umpire's calls. There is video of that incident as well and it reminds me of this.

Sometimes kids are dumb/bad and some coaches are assholes.

Yeah, this was my first thought too. Could be as simple as 2 players had already been ejected so these two, and maybe coach, thought the ref wasn't calling the game fairly and it was payback time. If so that's a chickenshit move!

That also seems to be the excuse everyone uses when people get caught fucking up. Believe Marcus Smart tried to say the same thing until a video was released showing he was lying.

Either way, it's a bitch move to hit someone from behind like that. At least man up and do it face to face.


My thought would be if these kids are making that claim then make it clear to them, the coach, and the HS that if it's found they are lying the penalties are going to be worse than just the kids, and maybe coach, being banned. Lying about this ref would result in the team being suspended for a year too. Then see if they want to continue with their complaint. Right now lying is a nothing to lose strategy for them.

Of course it's always possible this ref did the deed so it does need to be investigated but it will take a lot more than an anonymous post on a web forum for me to believe it. If this ref is the kind to lose his cool and use a slur there would be other teams\players that have heard him at some time? If it ends up true then you certainly fire the ref and he never works a HS game again. Kids are still banned and the coach to be determined by what an investigation turns up.

[BYU 14]

I'm in the middle on this. Is it beyond two kids to come up with something on their own? I mean, 16 year olds CAN and DO make their own decisions and they also don't always think clearly. I don't think holding the adult accountable is really worthwhile until we get more information.

That's why my question is above. How quick were they kicked off the team? Or have they been kicked off the team yet and they will be only because of the video? I want to see the coaches reaction to it because that will tell me most of what I need to know about the coaches agreement with the act.

While I get what you are saying, I think we have all the information that we need. In three separate incidents, the coach had 4 players ejected from the game. Outside of a brawl (which actually resulted in the suspension of the game IIRC), I don't think I have ever seen that many players from the same team ejected in one game. The coach has to be held accountable for not being able to control the kids under his control.

There is absolutely no way the coaching staff should not be held accountable. Whether someone on staff "suggested" this or not, the events of the game clearly show the staff had absolutely no control of the players and THERE IS NO EXCUSE for that.

27 years coaching and have never had a player from our schools do anything even close to this hair brained because as a program we held them accountable. It starts and ends with the staff and the either culture they allow, or the culture they instill. There is no other answer, excuse or reason for this to happen.

As far the alleged racial slur? If true that official should be barred from ever officiating again, ever. That does still not excuse the action. A disciplined team brings that to the coaches attention who addresses right then with the head official and files a complaint with the local governing body for officials.

If the slur did occur and the coach instructed/suggested/loosely insinuated, or whatever that the official deserved to "pay', then that coach is done, head coach (if it was not him) is suspended (you are responsible for your staff and players) and this players are still kicked off the team and banned from further participation.

Sorry, but no other outcome is acceptable.

[Marc Vaughan]

At the risk of a sidebar, at the end of the day, winning is the job.
This is something I just don't 'get' ...

For me High School sports teaching isn't to make 'winners' - truck me, 99.9% of the people who play high school sports will NEVER go professional, as such the important thing shouldn't be making them winners at all costs - it should be teaching them to enjoy the sport and to give them strong character and team skills ... those translate into life skills in the way that a meaningless high school trophy never does.

(I understand I might be in the minority of parents here - but frankly I'd prefer a coach who taught good character over one who teaches my kid to win at all costs regardless of what it takes ... personal preference I know ;) )

[Senator]

It wasn't a slur. They were losing a close game and they reacted. I've been around similar things like this before. Kids are much smarter than you give them credit for, the slur is their get out of jail card.
I have been in situations where I have a close game go against me due to a perceived bad call by the ref, or have got indications that the refs are playing favorites, or that they are gaming a game to their liking, and I have had to dig deep not to lose my composure.
Consequences these days are not a real fear for young men, especially. They know how to game the system, and they consider it a victory when they do.

[PilotMan]

I was hoping you'd show up with some insight on this one. Nice to see you around Senator.

[Easy Mac]

Reports are the wrong kid was ejected and on the next play the kid who got to stay in got 15 yards for a late hit on the qb during a kneel down. I can't imagine no one on the coaching staff wasn't aware what was going on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This is something I just don't 'get' ...

For me High School sports teaching isn't to make 'winners' - truck me, 99.9% of the people who play high school sports will NEVER go professional, as such the important thing shouldn't be making them winners at all costs - it should be teaching them to enjoy the sport and to give them strong character and team skills ... those translate into life skills in the way that a meaningless high school trophy never does.

(I understand I might be in the minority of parents here - but frankly I'd prefer a coach who taught good character over one who teaches my kid to win at all costs regardless of what it takes ... personal preference I know ;) )

If the primary object is teaching things that "translate into life skills" perhaps it's even more important to have learning to win be one of the things taught. The notion that losing, or being mediocre, is vital part of "learning valuable lessons" is one that I don't subscribe to in the slightest.

Look, I'm not without certain lines about that, there IS such a thing as "winning the right way" afaic. But generally speaking, akin perhaps to something like the Detroit Pistons "Bad Boys" era, succeed locally and you're loved.

Look no further than a certain (HS) coach is my area who I loathed. Virtually every school where he ever coached over several decades ended up in trouble for improper recruiting violations, wins were vacated, etc ... yet he's widely revered for winning over 700 games and multiple state titles AND was even selected for the local sports Hall of Fame despite being one of the dirtiest characters I ever saw at any level. Find religion late in life and apparently Jesus isn't the only one who forgives all sins. Or something like that.

The point I was aiming for, I guess, is just that when coaches are selected it's largely on the primary basis of producing a winner. It's much better if other things go along with that but that's THE job. Various other life skills can be taught along with winning, it's not believed to be a mutually exclusive proposition.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Has anyone (Senator?) got any perspective on this school or this football program? I looked, the school seems to have above average test scores, an 80% Hispanic population, couldn't find economic data down to the attendance zone level. Who are these kids basically, what's the environment? For that matter, is this a football powerhouse or a bottom feeder or one in the masses in the middle with mixed results year to year?

I mean, there's a pretty wide range of possibilities here IMO, in terms of how something like this happens.

I've seen places where that sequence is virtually (if not explicitly) coach driven. The back to back late hits that preceded it are part & parcel of playing certain teams here, behavior that's downright predictable & the product of certain systems/staffs/philosophies. We just played one of those teams two weeks ago in fact, with back to back knee dive attempts on kneel downs.

By the same token, I've definitely seen teams where there were a few bad actors that emerged amongst an otherwise "normal" program, where the behavior would be decidedly out of character for Team X but there are individuals who are of a different sort.

Basically, I can't in good conscience throw an entire program or staff under the bus automatically. IMO, this could easily enough be "bad kids gone rogue" as it is something systemic, not nearly enough info to make that determination, at least not that I've found.

Also, having followed an incident (in a different state) where players violently attacked an opposing coach off the field well after the end of a game & seeing relatively little in terms of sanction applied, I'm not sure what expectations for broad punishment there can be. The victim ended up with a steel plate in his head to repair the career-ending damage done by a helmet swinging opposing player, his promising career (7-3 in a single season as head coach, team is 4-29 since the incident under three HCs in 4 years) ... a grand jury failed to return any indictments at all.

The other coach involved? Still on the job ... he got his perennial bottom feeding team to the playoffs the following season & has hovered mostly around .500 since.

[digamma]

The fact that the Jay coach didn't pull the right kid off the field is disturbing/disappointing. Having been both in the press box and and the sidelines for dozens of high school football games, the coaches would have known without a doubt which kids performed the act and should have pulled them off the field before any ejection. Pretty poor effort by the coaching staff.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The fact that the Jay coach didn't pull the right kid off the field is disturbing/disappointing. Having been both in the press box and and the sidelines for dozens of high school football games, the coaches would have known without a doubt which kids performed the act and should have pulled them off the field before any ejection. Pretty poor effort by the coaching staff.

I've seen just the opposite occur too though, where a foul was against player A but the staff thought it was committed by Player B (to the point that the wrong kid was chewed out on the sidelines) ... and if the wrong guy was ejected (as someone mentioned) that could have caused legitimate confusion.

And who knows if there was even any coaches left in the press box with that vantage point (since we were at kneel down time according to one report), my experience has been that once you're there, over half the time the guys upstairs have already unplugged & are making their way down to the field. That's very commonplace.

Again, the whole program & whole staff could easily be p.o.s. for all I know ... I'm simply saying that I don't see enough here to automatically assume that. There ARE bad kids out there folks, there ARE kids that coaches can't always anticipate.

fwiw, here's the hype article (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sacultura/conexion/article/Jay-s-football-coach-happy-to-be-back-in-S-A-4460163.php) on the offending team's HC, when he was hired back in April 2013. At least to that point the HC involved was pretty much all but hailed as some sort of rising (semi)star, first Hispanic coach at multiple programs, DIII All-American lineman at Hardin-Simmons, his brother is a coach, his college roommate/teammate is an opposing HC, the article ends with this

"Besides his parents, Gloria and Joe Gutierrez, Gary credits his high school coach, Mike Morgan, and college coach, Jimmie Keeling, for helping shape his life and career.

“My parents taught me to just work hard and do things the right way,” Gutierrez said. “I get emotional just talking about them and my coaches. I never had to look far to find people I respected. They were at home and at school.”

edit to add: To avoid any additional confusion, I will leave my original comment about being in kneeldown time when the ref incident occurred intact BUT I have subsequently found accounts that clarify that the game was still in doubt (however faint) at the time of that play & therefore coaches were almost certainly still in the pressbox. The penalty on that ref play is what gave the opponent a first down & allowed them to kneel the clock out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

incidentally, the player who was ejected several plays earlier -- NOT the ref incident -- was, according to local reports, star QB/ATH prospect Moses Reynolds.

He has offers from over a dozen (http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Moses-Reynolds-180780)D1 schools ranging from Baylor to Navy.

NISD investigating incident with Jay players, official in Friday's game (http://www.kens5.com/story/news/2015/09/06/nisd-investigating-incident--john-jay-players-official--fridays-game/71810096/)

The player wearing the No. 12 jersey was ejected by the official after the play, but No. 81 remained in the game and another Jay player was tossed instead, Laing said.

"After he (the official) got knocked down and he got back up, he ejected one of the wrong kids," Laing said. "No. 12 and No. 81 are the ones involved in the video, but No. 81 did not get ejected. No. 12 and No. 7, who came over after the play, got ejected."

The ejections came after Jay senior free safety Moses Reynolds already had been kicked out of the game following an altercation with a Marble Falls player. A fourth Jay player was tossed earlier in the game.

Reynolds confirmed to KENS 5 that he was ejected "a couple of plays" before the incident involving the official. Reynolds, who also plays quarterback for the Mustangs, said he got tossed from the game while he was playing defense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And JUST since the story isn't a big enough mess. The whole "late hit on a kneel down" deal? That was on the final play of the game AFTER the ref hit.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/hssports/2015/09/jay-player-who-hit-referee-stayed-in-the-game-hit-marble-falls-qb-on-final-play/


That was #81, the kid who was NOT ejected for his role in that play. (see above, where the refs actually ejected a bystander instead of the 2nd offender)

So, based on all the pieces, you had:

1 ejected player "earlier in the game", not unheard of stuff

THEN the star ATH ejected a few plays prior to the ref incident, also not unheard of stuff

THEN 2 players ejected for the ref incident (one rightly, one wrongly identified), which was truly bizarre (and why we're talking about it)

THEN the late hit on the kneeldown

That kid still being on the field does put the staff in a questionable position but at the same time, given the 3-ring circus that most HS sidelines are under normal situations much less one that had suddenly gotten into the Twilight Zone I can easily believe that the coaches could have thought the two ejected players were the actual culprits and didn't realize they'd left the offender on the field.

Did they know? Certainly possible.
Can I say they knew? Not with any clear conscience whatsoever at this point.

[Atocep]

There is absolutely no way the coaching staff should not be held accountable. Whether someone on staff "suggested" this or not, the events of the game clearly show the staff had absolutely no control of the players and THERE IS NO EXCUSE for that.

27 years coaching and have never had a player from our schools do anything even close to this hair brained because as a program we held them accountable. It starts and ends with the staff and the either culture they allow, or the culture they instill. There is no other answer, excuse or reason for this to happen.

As far the alleged racial slur? If true that official should be barred from ever officiating again, ever. That does still not excuse the action. A disciplined team brings that to the coaches attention who addresses right then with the head official and files a complaint with the local governing body for officials.

If the slur did occur and the coach instructed/suggested/loosely insinuated, or whatever that the official deserved to "pay', then that coach is done, head coach (if it was not him) is suspended (you are responsible for your staff and players) and this players are still kicked off the team and banned from further participation.

Sorry, but no other outcome is acceptable.

Here in Washington, as far as baseball goes, in both league play and tournaments for my team if one of my players is ejected for a disciplinary issue I get ejected with him. This is 14u baseball, but the same is pretty standard for tournaments and non-HS league play all the way up through 18u. At the end of the day the coach is responsible for the discipline of his team.

[miami_fan]

And JUST since the story isn't a big enough mess. The whole "late hit on a kneel down" deal? That was on the final play of the game AFTER the ref hit.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/hssports/2015/09/jay-player-who-hit-referee-stayed-in-the-game-hit-marble-falls-qb-on-final-play/


That was #81, the kid who was NOT ejected for his role in that play. (see above, where the refs actually ejected a bystander instead of the 2nd offender)

So, based on all the pieces, you had:

1 ejected player "earlier in the game", not unheard of stuff

THEN the star ATH ejected a few plays prior to the ref incident, also not unheard of stuff

THEN 2 players ejected for the ref incident (one rightly, one wrongly identified), which was truly bizarre (and why we're talking about it)

THEN the late hit on the kneeldown

That kid still being on the field does put the staff in a questionable position but at the same time, given the 3-ring circus that most HS sidelines are under normal situations much less one that had suddenly gotten into the Twilight Zone I can easily believe that the coaches could have thought the two ejected players were the actual culprits and didn't realize they'd left the offender on the field.

Did they know? Certainly possible.
Can I say they knew? Not with any clear conscience whatsoever at this point.

I am sure Paul Johnson is wondering where the hell this rational JiMGA is when discussing Georgia Tech football :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am sure Paul Johnson is wondering where the hell this rational JiMGA is when discussing Georgia Tech football :D

This situation is far murkier than the one surrounding that unlikable sumbitch

;)

[TroyF]

And JUST since the story isn't a big enough mess. The whole "late hit on a kneel down" deal? That was on the final play of the game AFTER the ref hit.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/hssports/2015/09/jay-player-who-hit-referee-stayed-in-the-game-hit-marble-falls-qb-on-final-play/


That was #81, the kid who was NOT ejected for his role in that play. (see above, where the refs actually ejected a bystander instead of the 2nd offender)

So, based on all the pieces, you had:

1 ejected player "earlier in the game", not unheard of stuff

THEN the star ATH ejected a few plays prior to the ref incident, also not unheard of stuff

THEN 2 players ejected for the ref incident (one rightly, one wrongly identified), which was truly bizarre (and why we're talking about it)

THEN the late hit on the kneeldown

That kid still being on the field does put the staff in a questionable position but at the same time, given the 3-ring circus that most HS sidelines are under normal situations much less one that had suddenly gotten into the Twilight Zone I can easily believe that the coaches could have thought the two ejected players were the actual culprits and didn't realize they'd left the offender on the field.

Did they know? Certainly possible.
Can I say they knew? Not with any clear conscience whatsoever at this point.


After the ref incident, at the very least, the coaches should have gathered the entire team and stated unequivocally that any other player with a personal foul would be done with his HS career. The fact it didn't happen and the player didn't get suspended after a hit on a kneel down is pretty damning on the coach and his staff IMHO.

It's harsh, but the program needs to be shut down for the year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The fact it didn't happen and the player didn't get suspended after a hit on a kneel down is pretty damning on the coach and his staff IMHO. It's harsh, but the program needs to be shut down for the year.

If that's your standard then you might as well shut down HS football because I see that happen -- as dirty as it is -- on close to half our of kneel down situations over the past few seasons (granted, we haven't had THAT many lately unfortunately)

We pretty much anticipate it happening at this point (to the point that I was able to predict it from the stands before we even got to kneel down time with over two minutes left in our last win locally ... sure enough, back to back plays, only flagged on the last one)

And it certainly isn't just "us", saw the same thing last Friday night while at a neutral game on our off week, nobody even bothered to throw a flag on it.

[cuervo72]

If the primary object is teaching things that "translate into life skills" perhaps it's even more important to have learning to win be one of the things taught. The notion that losing, or being mediocre, is vital part of "learning valuable lessons" is one that I don't subscribe to in the slightest.

But back to rowech's case:

I go up into the stands and ask his parents to take him home or know we might have to physically restrain him. They tell me to do what's needed. Game ends and he goes towards ref on a sprint. I grab him and hold him back and he gets away. Assistants do the same. We all watch as he goes and pushes the ref yelling f-bombs, etc.

Wouldn't there be some benefit to hammering into this spoiled shit's head that if you pull this in the real world (assuming he has to someday actually function in the real world, vs having everything handed to him by mommy and daddy) you might get fired and/or have your ass thrown in jail, depending on who you are going off on?

[TroyF]

If that's your standard then you might as well shut down HS football because I see that happen -- as dirty as it is -- on close to half our of kneel down situations over the past few seasons (granted, we haven't had THAT many lately unfortunately)

We pretty much anticipate it happening at this point (to the point that I was able to predict it from the stands before we even got to kneel down time with over two minutes left in our last win locally ... sure enough, back to back plays, only flagged on the last one)

And it certainly isn't just "us", saw the same thing last Friday night while at a neutral game on our off week, nobody even bothered to throw a flag on it.



Ugh, I guess we can thank Greg Shciano for this type of douche bag behavior. It's seriously, seriously pathetic on so many levels. I instantly stop cheering for any team that pulls it. Sounds like I wouldn't have a HS team to cheer for. :(

[Dutch]

Ugh, I guess we can thank Greg Shciano for this type of douche bag behavior. It's seriously, seriously pathetic on so many levels. I instantly stop cheering for any team that pulls it. Sounds like I wouldn't have a HS team to cheer for. :(

Greg Schiano never called for his player to hit anybody late. He did call on his defense to crash the line when the ball was hiked in hopes to cause a fumble. You could argue that it was a DBag thing, but it was completely legal. Late hitting a kneeling player is illegal.

[NobodyHere]

Assistant coach's comment might have led to hit on high school official (http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/assistant-coachs-comment-might-have-led-to-hit-on-high-school-official/ar-AAe4uBm)

An assistant coach for John Jay High in San Antonio is alleged to have said, “this guy needs to pay for cheating us” before two John players appeared to target and intentionally hit a football official during Friday’s game.

[TroyF]

Assistant coach's comment might have led to hit on high school official (http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/assistant-coachs-comment-might-have-led-to-hit-on-high-school-official/ar-AAe4uBm)


And the players did say the ref called them a racial slur. Which is kind of interesting and contradicts the entire assistant coach claims. If it were racist comments and slurs, he would have screamed at them to get back at the ref because of slurs, not because of his bad calls.

[Senator]

Look, I wasn't there, but I've seen this played out over and over. I don't know how many times the knuckle headed assistant coaches are screaming, "home brew!" And "that's a bullshit call" eat ect and the kids are just feeding off it.

To answer the question - the school is a typical middle of the road San Antonio school. Hispanic majority, not a playoff team typically, has produced a few D1 talents, but nothing out of the ordinary.

Did any of you watch Friday Night Tykes? That was based out of San Antonio. These kids have some of the worst role models for coaches in the state.

The game is tight. The coaches are barking they are getting their hard work stolen from them by the refs. The kids are sitting there fuming. They react. Those were the actions of seeing their teammates get kicked out of the game the play before. Losing a game because of those F-Ing refs. What do you say when you get caught? He made bad calls? Or he said a racial slur? What gets us out of this mess?

I have a link somewhere of Allen vs Trinity - the Alpha schools of Texas where this happened as well. I'll post it.

[Senator]

Trinity hit - YouTube (http://youtu.be/UO9d7D4yVS4)

[HomerSimpson98]

Fuck that guy too.

I'd never seen that. Any idea the year? Its at old Texas Stadium so it cant be recent.

[cartman]

Hansen Unplugged: On hitting a ref (http://www.wfaa.com/videos/sports/dale-hansen/2015/09/08/hansen-unplugged-on-hitting-a-ref/71917390/)

[Dr. Sak]

Situations like this are reasons I carry extra insurance through NASO. It protects me if I get hurt on the field, and it provides me free lawyers to go after anyone who attacks me on the field or to defend myself if someone sues me.

I have been fortunate that I have not been attacked but have had two close calls. Leaving a HS football game once I had a man take a swing at me with his cane...luckily I saw it and moved my head. The police grabbed the guy and took him away.

The second was at a summer league hoops game where I had two kids push each other after the whistle. I got between them and then turned around to see one of the parent's of the kid behind me. I asked him what he was doing on the court? And he replied...if that kid took a swing at mine, I was going to hit him. I said "You were going to hit a 16 year old kid?" He said "Yes". I had security escort him out of the gym.

People can sneak up on you quick and you never know until it is too late.

[RainMaker]

I'm not a big gun guy but you start to wonder if refs should be carrying after a game.

[EagleFan]

Blind mice carrying? ;)

[miami_fan]

Too many adults don't act like adults in those situations,

I know this was posted in another thread, but it seems very appropriate to post here as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just got home from a game, wanted to touch on something I mentioned in this thread previously.

We beat a larger (AA to our single A) team 55-14 in a game that wasn't really that close, and played the 4th quarter with a continuously running clock.

They got their first personal foul (late hit) with about 5 mins left in Q1 (we were up 14-0 at the time). Face mask that tore our RB helmet off early Q2. A double dip Holding + Unsportsmanlike Conduct (kicking into a sideline pile) around 5 mins Q2. Personal foul on a punt 2 mins later. Personal foul after their KOR with a min left in the half. Personal foul after the end of a run with 13 secs left in the half. Throw in a false start and that's 105 in penalties by halftime, not counting a chop block we declined. Also not counting any of the uncalled horse collars, at least 3 obvious (they tackled very high all night) nor the WR who blocked our DB in the back 30 yards away from the play & sent him flying a good 5-10 yards, uncalled, right in the face of a ref who was already in "well let's try to help keep the game close" mode.

They then declined the running clock option for the 3rd qtr, despite trailing 35-0 at half. Tack on a simple holding penalty to their total early Q3. Our backups turned it over & they scored middle Q3 to cut it to 42-6, but got a personal foul after the play. Their starters scored again on a pass against our JVs to cut it to 48-12 late Q3, yep you guessed it, they get another post-TD personal foul after the play. Our freshman RB gets 15 yds added to his run on a personal foul 2 plays later. They add a false start to their total in the final minutes. Pending stat reconciliation, that's 165 yards in penalties with 7 personal fouls that were called and another 3-5 that were simply passed up by the officials. And there isn't even really any bad blood history between the two programs, they're just a poorly coached team with questionable kids that has lost 20 of their last 22 games, hasn't had a winning season in a decade & hasn't made the playoffs since 1998 and is on their 5th HC in that span.

If anyone wondered why the play out in Texas didn't really shock me THAT much, maybe this helps that become clearer.

[TroyF]

Just got home from a game, wanted to touch on something I mentioned in this thread previously.

We beat a larger (AA to our single A) team 55-14 in a game that wasn't really that close, and played the 4th quarter with a continuously running clock.

They got their first personal foul (late hit) with about 5 mins left in Q1 (we were up 14-0 at the time). Face mask that tore our RB helmet off early Q2. A double dip Holding + Unsportsmanlike Conduct (kicking into a sideline pile) around 5 mins Q2. Personal foul on a punt 2 mins later. Personal foul after their KOR with a min left in the half. Personal foul after the end of a run with 13 secs left in the half. Throw in a false start and that's 105 in penalties by halftime, not counting a chop block we declined. Also not counting any of the uncalled horse collars, at least 3 obvious (they tackled very high all night) nor the WR who blocked our DB in the back 30 yards away from the play & sent him flying a good 5-10 yards, uncalled, right in the face of a ref who was already in "well let's try to help keep the game close" mode.

They then declined the running clock option for the 3rd qtr, despite trailing 35-0 at half. Tack on a simple holding penalty to their total early Q3. Our backups turned it over & they scored middle Q3 to cut it to 42-6, but got a personal foul after the play. Their starters scored again on a pass against our JVs to cut it to 48-12 late Q3, yep you guessed it, they get another post-TD personal foul after the play. Our freshman RB gets 15 yds added to his run on a personal foul 2 plays later. They add a false start to their total in the final minutes. Pending stat reconciliation, that's 165 yards in penalties with 7 personal fouls that were called and another 3-5 that were simply passed up by the officials. And there isn't even really any bad blood history between the two programs, they're just a poorly coached team with questionable kids that has lost 20 of their last 22 games, hasn't had a winning season in a decade & hasn't made the playoffs since 1998 and is on their 5th HC in that span.

If anyone wondered why the play out in Texas didn't really shock me THAT much, maybe this helps that become clearer.


Just a horrible story. So pathetic. So very, very pathetic.

[Solecismic]

Back in my journalism days, I covered hundreds of high school football games. I've never seen anything even close to that. I know things have changed a lot in the last couple of decades, but it's shocking that your team's coach even allowed your team to take the field in the second half. What if some kid were crippled from one of those fouls?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just a horrible story. So pathetic. So very, very pathetic.

That 2 out of 3 games we've played this year that have been that way. And the one that wasn't like that has been that way in 2 of the previous games prior.

Next week is a bitter rival but a traditional powerhouse (Commerce for those who know GA HSFB) it'll be hard hitting but largely clean, much respect both ways. Then an off week, followed by perennial cellar dweller Towns County (no history there), then bitter arch rival Prince Ave Christian (that'll be violent, penalties or no), then a very bad Lakeview Academy (always dirty, an excess of rednecks with first-gen money), then awful Providence Christian (not overly dirty aside from failed recruiting), then Hebron Christian (who will get chippy), then George Walton Academy (dirty in the past, horribly undercoached, a mix of 'necks & underperforming recruited players)

All supervised by some of the most consistently inept officials you'll ever see, tonight's game featured at least three obvious markoff mistakes. We simply have far too many games on Fri nights & not nearly enough capable officials to cover them (close to 200 games statewide each Fri, not counting the smaller GISA and GICAA orgaizations which have another 30-40 each week)

[CU Tiger]

Shocked that your sons coach didnt self police that

[JonInMiddleGA]

Back in my journalism days, I covered hundreds of high school football games. I've never seen anything even close to that. I know things have changed a lot in the last couple of decades, but it's shocking that your team's coach even allowed your team to take the field in the second half. What if some kid were crippled from one of those fouls?

We hustled the kids through (comically, IMO) a "handshake line" post-game & then literally ran them to the locker room to avoid any post-game extracurriculars. And that was after rushing them off the field at halftime since half their team came onto the field screaming at the refs (upset with their inability to get off one final play before halftime) and some were heading more for our guys than for the refs.

But again, as I said similarly in this thread last week, this is a state that failed to punish an assault on a coach that left him disabled & threatened the victimized school if they opted not to play a subsequent basketball game against the attackers (same region). They were willing to forfeit the game to avoid another meeting just a few weeks later, state org. would have fined & likely suspended them if they had done so.

It's either play (in a case like tonight) or abandon the sport entirely, this is what HS football amounts to here at this point. (And I know at least another state or two where it's similar/same) And we're in a region that's mostly private schools (tonight was a public school non-region opponent however). Go into some more remote areas & it's rougher & tougher (indeed our region is on the soft side). There are stadiums where I wouldn't (hypothetically) go as a broadcaster without being armed anymore, at least one that I wouldn't return to under any circumstance (the previously mentioned players-attack-own-coaches incident location).

Then again, I remember bitter mountain rivalries that literally ended with a dozen players hospitalized (mostly due to activity in pileups) as far back as the early 80s so it's not like it's anything all that new. And I once watched -- no second hand legend here, I was standing there less than 10 feet away & saw with my own two eyes -- deputies from rival counties draw their weapons on each other in a territorial dispute in the lobby before a basketball game.

The reason I went through our schedule the way I did was to point out that this sort of thing isn't the least bit unusual to see, games like tonight I mean. It's was a bit on the high side but not some bizarre outlier (in fact the incidents were about average, this crew just happened to throw more flags & make it easier to quantify).

I'm also not painting our kids as complete saints, we got one personal foul ourselves (kid got there late, couldn't / didn't stop & was rightfully flagged for it). Truth of it is, though, that our kids have ACT's to take tomorrow at 8am & a game that could go a long way toward determining a region title next week. Tonight's opponent is playing for basically nothing again this season, just as their teams have done for the past two decades (last time they were even above .500 in their own region was 1996).

It's a lower middle class area (only 13% below poverty line), largely a dead-end community with some significant population growth due to white flight to more rural areas over the past two decades. It's just that it's the growth is made up mostly of, well, mostly folks who fit right into the dead-end culture there. Not sure hardly anyone wants to be living there, it's more of a place where you "end up".

And we've got a LOT of places that description would apply to, probably half the state or more.

And it's not just football, by nature a violent contact sport. Basketball many nights isn't much better these days.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Shocked that your sons coach didnt self police that

We've got one hell of a new HC. (Former OC at nationally ranked Archer HS). My kid describes him as "almost certainly the best human being on our campus", a genuinely impressive guy. And he worked his butt off tonight both with the officials AND with keeping our guys remarkably controlled (indeed, impressively so, we walked away from a LOT of stuff).

At least tonight we saw flags, most week's this stuff isn't policed at all.

The worst of the penalties I think had to be the first after-their-touchdown personal foul. On that play they went 36 yards on a littlle screen pass down the far (their) sideline, a senior broke two weak tackles by our backups & scored. A freshman CB (maybe 5'9, maybe 150 tops) was then absolutely destroyed by a block in the back around the 2-3 yard line by one of their starting OL, driven several yards out of bounds & had to be helped up & helped off. The aggregious part was that the block came AFTER their guy had scored & was so late that he'd already handed the ball to the official & was celebrating.

[cuervo72]

While on the general topic: Cops: Coach Stood By While J.V. Football Player Got Beat Up For Sitting With Rival Team (http://deadspin.com/cops-coach-stood-by-while-j-v-football-player-got-bea-1730273556)

[MrBug708]

How are those kids not arrested and the coaches also arrested?

[JonInMiddleGA]

While on the general topic: Cops: Coach Stood By While J.V. Football Player Got Beat Up For Sitting With Rival Team (http://deadspin.com/cops-coach-stood-by-while-j-v-football-player-got-bea-1730273556)

Well, the story (local versions at least) seems to be more that he got beat down for wearing the other team's colors "in support of his cheerleader girlfriend" than for where he sat.

Honestly? I cannot fathom -- and I really tried -- anyone I ever knew doing something that incredibly stupid.

Legally? Yeah, the players involved can get what's coming to them & that's fine. That's how the ball bounces, tough shit for them.

Morally? I can't find a problem with that idiot taking an ass beating. Anybody THAT dumb, I just don't have it in me to work up any sympathy for them at all.

The whole situation just screams "hey, look at me !!! " which is pretty much the single biggest problem I see with the current generation. This is what a culture that celebrates fucking idiots creates apparently.

[stevew]

Yeah, I feel like that would have gotten you a code red in the 90s when I went to school. The coaches shoulda stepped in, but...

I guess maybe a fight is wrong but I could easily see an extremely physical practice.

[Senator]

Makes the whole sports scene very unappealing. Coached my son in youth league today, and had a quality win, and instead of enjoying it, I had to sit and deal with the parent of the worst behaved kid on the team light into me because his son didn't carry the ball. He's a triple backup receiver. Every single experience is a killjoy situation, and I honest to God don't remember it being this way at all levels, expect for the past 5 years.

[PilotMan]

Another Texas High School Football Player Hits Ref (http://deadspin.com/another-texas-high-school-football-player-hits-ref-1730352501?)

Go Texas?

[cartman]

I've heard through the grapevine that the kid that hit the ref in the 2008 Trinity video above is now a police officer. No joke.

[RainMaker]

Makes the whole sports scene very unappealing. Coached my son in youth league today, and had a quality win, and instead of enjoying it, I had to sit and deal with the parent of the worst behaved kid on the team light into me because his son didn't carry the ball. He's a triple backup receiver. Every single experience is a killjoy situation, and I honest to God don't remember it being this way at all levels, expect for the past 5 years.

Every parent these days thinks their kid is a special snowflake. Instead of telling the kid to work harder they blame the coach.

[Atocep]

Every parent these days thinks their kid is a special snowflake. Instead of telling the kid to work harder they blame the coach.

I'm not coaching baseball this year for the first time since my son started playing (he'll play 14u this year) because parents can be awful.

Had a parent this year that kept telling their son he's the best catcher on the team. Well he wasn't. I didn't agree, my assistant coach didn't agree, the instructors at the organization I coach for didn't agree. But since my son was the other catcher he wasn't catching enough because I'm biased. Telling him he's the best did nothing but cause problems because he stopped respecting the coaching because we didn't see he was the best. That ended up escalating into dugout problems and verbal attacks on my son. It isn't worth it anymore.

[Senator]

I agree. 10 years in and I'm done. My son wants to try different sports.. Lacrosse, golf, swimming, ect... And I'm just going to go that route and no more coaching - I'm going to enjoy for awhile instead of having to deal with silliness.

[BishopMVP]

Is this going to be the new thing? There are tens of thousands of HS football games every week - there are going to be a couple dumb teenagers doing dumb things every week. Do we need to have it be national news, or act like it's worse than things were 10 or 20 years ago just because everything is now caught on video?

[lighthousekeeper]

if i'm otherwise bored, yes

[miami_fan]

Is this going to be the new thing? There are tens of thousands of HS football games every week - there are going to be a couple dumb teenagers doing dumb things every week. Do we need to have it be national news, or act like it's worse than things were 10 or 20 years ago just because everything is now caught on video?

You have hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. As we have heard from the stories in this thread, this is not new stuff. I feel like this trend is youth sports version of the Ray Rice video. We know that this dirty underbelly exists, we just don't like to see it.

[MizzouRah]

This coming weekend soccer reffing starts.. should be a fun season.. LOL!

[JonInMiddleGA]

for the fed-up youth coaches in the thread ... uh, where ya'll been exactly?

I remember all the stuff you're describing going back to the 70s, when I was just a kid. Biggest difference in my recollections & what the parental complaints you're describing is that you didn't mention anything about the parents not-so-subtly pointing out some advantage (usually financial or employment related) they had to bend you to their demands. Other than that, same shit different year best I can tell.

If you're experiencing this as some sort of new'ish behavior trend then I'd say just count your blessings for the respite, I can promise you that it's nothing new at all.

[Suicane75]

I think shit definitely happened back in the day, but I don't think that the parental investment was as big as it now. With traveling teams, more structured play across all levels, it heightens the importance to a lot of these parents and players.

Back in the day if you thought a coach was favoring someone, oh well. Most of little league and pee wee football was just for kids to have something to do and to teach structure, now it's turned into a feeder system and every parent think their kid is going to be the next Mike Trout or Tom Brady.

When parents are investing thousands of dollars in equipment and traveling too and fro, it's almost as if they're expecting a return on their investment and not just for their kid to have a good time. It's pretty sad AFAIC.

[BYU 14]

I have to agree with others, it is worse now and 38 of my 52 years on earth have been spent either playing or coaching football.

There have always been obnoxious parents and unscrupulous coaches, but the x factor over the last 10 years has been the targeting of the high school age and under kid as a money making opportunity.

Now, more than ever, you have travel teams, sports specific trainers, recruiting services/camps and high school coaches vying for the attention/money of young athletes and their parents from an increasingly early age.

Even football now has year round travel teams in Arizona, which is totally fucking stupid because it is not safe or prudent to play football 8-9 months out of the year. Kids need time to recover and rebuild and that does not come from playing three straight seasons, then going to some early summer tournament like the snoop dogg bowl in LA.

So now you have these trainers/coaches/camps, etc kissing Johnnies ass from the age of 8 and telling his parents how they can get him a scholarship, make him 5 tenths of a second faster, blah, blah, blah and some of these kids and their folks are insufferable when they get to high school. It is often an arduous chore re-teaching them teamwork, humility and respect again, let alone driving home the point that the word student comes first in student athlete.

That said, we have been blessed with some great kids and parents, but part of that is we actually turn some off when they would come to our orientation and hear how our program did things, or when we would not guarantee a position or play time.

This stuff truly has gotten worse over time, though fortunately it is only mildly dampened my enthusiasm for the sport and working with the kids because there is still enough good to offset the bad, but the bad these days is sometimes realllllly bad!

[RainMaker]

I don't remember it being prominent when I was younger. In fact, we were scared to death of getting an unsportsmanlike penalty because we'd be running till we puked at practice the following week. Every coach I had hated unnecessary penalties.

Maybe coaches just don't have the same kind of control over their players that they did back in the day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So now you have these trainers/coaches/camps, etc kissing Johnnies ass from the age of 8 and telling his parents how they can get him a scholarship !

That said however, virtually every kid I've seen get specialized training (camps, trainers, etc) at our HS in the past 4 years for football -- there are very few of those -- DID end up with / is ending up with a scholarship.

Ditto for track & field, as well as at least 1/4th of our tennis starters.

Golf (one scholly, all players with private instruction), swimming, other stuff, not so much so. But in those sports the success rate was high, almost certainly because it was our very best who endured the cost & the strain of it. But for those kids, it certainly seemed to be the diff between D1 and DIII or DIII and Directional Juco.

[VPI97]

If you're experiencing this as some sort of new'ish behavior trend then I'd say just count your blessings for the respite, I can promise you that it's nothing new at all.
I'm with you on this Jon...I don't think it's necessarily something new. One memory of my high school football days 25 years ago involves severe post-game taunting by opposing assistant coaches when we lost to our rivals 6-4 (yes, 6-4) on an end of game hail mary. The opposing players were gracious, while their coaching staff were the ones crowing and gloating in the post-game handshake.

Even worse was my final high school game. We were playing the #1 team in the state in the regional finals, but we were the one school who had their number (to that point, we held a 5 game win streak against them spanning my four years of high school). Anyway, we had beaten them at home a few weeks prior in the regular season finale, but the playoff game was at their place. They tore us up that day and after they went up by three scores late in the game, I was lined up near their sidelines on kickoff return when I heard a string of expletives directed at me and my teammates coming from their bench. When I turn and look, it was assistant coaches (again) screaming, gloating, cursing our moms, flipping the bird, etc. Ugh...bad way to end your football career.

[BYU 14]

That said however, virtually every kid I've seen get specialized training (camps, trainers, etc) at our HS in the past 4 years for football -- there are very few of those -- DID end up with / is ending up with a scholarship.

Ditto for track & field, as well as at least 1/4th of our tennis starters.

Golf (one scholly, all players with private instruction), swimming, other stuff, not so much so. But in those sports the success rate was high, almost certainly because it was our very best who endured the cost & the strain of it. But for those kids, it certainly seemed to be the diff between D1 and DIII or DIII and Directional Juco.

It is definitely a different environment here. I think in part because AZ is conducive to year round training, with the availability in the winter and spring to train outside seeming to bring a lot more of these things here.

The other thing is open enrollment, which encourages coaches to recruit kids and promotes a sense of entitlement when you have 3 high schools chasing your kid.

Case in point. Our current starting Fullback (lives in our boundaries) was pursued by a big name private school and a couple of other schools in the area, one of which offered to pick him up, take him to school and bring him home after practice. We knew he was a stud and when we visited our feeder schools in the spring before his freshman year our only pitch to him was.

"We hope you stay in our area, come to our summer workouts when school (8th grade) is out and see if you like. What we do speaks for itself." That was it, he came, liked the environment and stayed put. I found out all the stuff above from his dad after the fact.

Don't get me wrong Jon, I put more of these behavior issues on the coaches than anyone else. When a coach empowers a kid to act entitled, it is the final and ultimate stamp of validation, that the kid "run the show". You want disciplined athletes and parents. Lay out your expectations early and never waiver. You will lose some kids because of it, but the ones you get will be much more likely to buy in completely and respect the game.

Edit: And I have no problem with getting additional individual training, whatever helps you reach your potential, it is the "Car salesman" tactics that some of these places employ and the resulting attitude problems hat follow.

[Senator]

Just to add to the conversation - here in the DFW area the experience is more like BYU14 describes. I've had the experience of being involved in the private school/ public school/ winter leagues/ spring leagues/ personal coaching/ 24/7 offering of camps that are always on display. The kids are treated like rock stars and the parents will pay whatever they have to for that treatment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The other thing is open enrollment, which encourages coaches to recruit kids and promotes a sense of entitlement when you have 3 high schools chasing your kid. ...

Ah yes, recruiting.

It's both the same AND different here. Recruiting for athletic purposes here is strictly verboten by the GHSA. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's punishable if proven. That's pretty rare, once or twice every few years or so. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen of course.

What can be done legally is to discuss academic/overall advantages within a parent initiated framework. And that's only reasonable afaic. Quite a few of our better football (or other sports, basketball comes to mind in some cases for sure) are ALSO leaps & bounds ahead of 90% of the state in terms of academics.

By & large we don't do it. And that's a mixed bag of reactions to be honest, more than once I've heard that we either better start doing so or plan to either be left behind or just give up certain sports entirely. And I don't entirely disagree with that sentiment. Our region is pretty rife with it.

We have the most aggregious violator of it I've ever seen, allows them to dominate track and boys basketball in the area, hasn't yet translated past the first round of the football playoffs. We have another school who largely flopped with it, rather clearly recruiting most of an offensive line & a D1 running back a few years ago. The running back largely busted for them (although he's since made Sportscenter highlights numerous times in college) and the line turned out to have no heart, the youngest two basically quit the team but stayed at the school, effectively telling them "hey, you said this wasn't about football but academics, so you'll have no problem keeping our tuition assistance intact ... right?" A third school, the most football successful snagged one of the top coaches in the state & gave him the largest & most experienced staff I've ever seen assembled (I think there's 13 asst's at my last count, all of which had college experience & at least two had NFL experience). They no longer have to recruit players, the reputation does that for them.

That's a similar situation really to what the most criticized out of district program has: mighty Buford. Nationally ranked, beyond dominant at every classification they've played thus far. It's Buford, they don't need to recruit, they simply stand back & let their success speak for them. Strong academically, better than average environment for the state, facilities constantly upgrading & improving, there really isn't much not to love frankly.

There's another smaller startup program in the area (smaller, different organization) that also basically got most of their year one & year two starters from a couple of local programs. I'm sure playing time & other things were discussed ... but at the same time the choice between new Catholic school & starting (due to numbers if nothing else) vs staying in some of the most violent schools in the area & being fifth-string, well that's a hard transfer for me to criticize at any level really.

My sense of it, overall, is that there isn't a great deal of "we can make you this" recruiting that takes place with the schools themselves. Private coaching yes, schools no. I do feel like playing time promises get made in a lot of cases, exposure certainly gets some discussion at times, the primary pitch is usually more about winning would be my gut on that though.

And I have no problem with getting additional individual training, whatever helps you reach your potential, it is the "Car salesman" tactics that some of these places employ and the resulting attitude problems hat follow.

It's a business. And those tactics seem to work. As long as they deliver the training agreed upon, well, I'm harder pressed to be overly critical of them. It's annoying, it's obnoxious, but at the end of the day they're trying to make a living same as me & if the tactic works ...

[Senator]

Just in case the race card doesn't work, back it up with the coach told us to, and get free trip to New York.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/18/high-school-players-who-attacked-official-say-coach-told-them-to-do-it/

[JonInMiddleGA]

and get free trip to New York

Pretty much my reaction as well.

Credibility here is, umm ... well, hard to find.

[RainMaker]

These guys seem like pieces of shit. Everyone is to blame but themselves.

[stevew]

That one kid has a bitchin' mullet/bowl cut.

[HomerSimpson98]

The ref was given a Code Red. You follow orders at SA Jay. Hilarious the similarities. Victor didnt even hear Lt. Kendrick, er the coach, give the Code Red. He wsa busting it double time because the pickup private had a flat. Lance Cpl. Harold Dawson, er Micheal, said thats what he said. Can't wait for Col. Jessup's final scene. Riveting!

[molson]

I blame violent video games, the media, rap music, dancing, and cereal with too much sugar.

[lighthousekeeper]

I blame violent video games, the media, rap music, dancing, and cereal with too much sugar.

...how many times do stories like this have to happen before we enact some real gun control measures?

[BYU 14]

Pretty much my reaction as well.

Credibility here is, umm ... well, non-existent.

fixed it for you ;)

[miami_fan]

What are the chances of a defamation lawsuit against these kids and their families? This is a hell of a lie if it is one.

[bhlloy]

Holy shit I just saw the haircut. That kid should be locked up for that, I don't care who he hit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And then there's nights like tonight. A scoreless first half against a big-time rival, a 14-7 win in the end. And you stand there after the final defensive stand , as the clock expires, and you can't say anything because your voice is gone & your heart is so filled because with what you know those kids - 14, 15, 16, 17 year old boys turning into men - just put out there, and what they put into it through the heat of a Georgia summer.

And you remember for a little while WHY high school football continues, why it matters, why you care.

[miami_fan]

John Jay assistant Mack Breed admitted to ordering players to hit referee in response to alleged racist comments, bad calls (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13721638/john-jay-assistant-mack-breed-admitted-ordering-players-hit-referee-response-alleged-racist-comments-bad-calls)

[Ben E Lou]

John Jay assistant Mack Breed admitted to ordering players to hit referee in response to alleged racist comments, bad calls (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13721638/john-jay-assistant-mack-breed-admitted-ordering-players-hit-referee-response-alleged-racist-comments-bad-calls)Wow.

[hollmt]

Wow.

I am curious to know what you are 'wowing' about. There are so many things to wow about here. The story being total bullshit or that maybe the story is true or maybe that he is lying even further to cover for these thug kids. Sure there are a few other scenarios that I am missing off the top of my head.

[panerd]

The race card, the modern day get out of jail free card. Absolutely no way to prove it did or didn't happen but a good way to sway public opinion from basically 0/100 to something more manageable.

[BishopMVP]

Glencliff football player suspended; referee speaks out - The Gallatin News (http://www.gallatinnews.com/glencliff-football-player-suspended-referee-speaks-out-cms-14691)

Intentional, but understandable imo. Referee should've at least made an attempt to get out of the way on plays like before (scroll down to the bottom video).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Glencliff football player suspended; referee speaks out - The Gallatin News (http://www.gallatinnews.com/glencliff-football-player-suspended-referee-speaks-out-cms-14691)

Intentional, but understandable imo. Referee should've at least made an attempt to get out of the way on plays like before (scroll down to the bottom video).

Yeah, I don't usually have a lot good to say about the TSSAA (their screwing up of classifications, regions & playoffs is pretty epic) but their no-action call here seems like the right one to me based on the video.

[molson]

Maybe Dr. Sak can weigh on this, but are youth sport referees, in reality, prisoners forced to perform that task as part of their sentence, or are there actually people willing to do that voluntarily?

[BishopMVP]

Maybe Dr. Sak can weigh on this, but are youth sport referees, in reality, prisoners forced to perform that task as part of their sentence, or are there actually people willing to do that voluntarily?

I've refereed soccer and lacrosse for over a decade now. I also coach both sports, and the combination of incompetence and arrogance by some HS refs is truly mind-boggling. Not all, not most, but a certain select few who are there because there is zero accountability or grading happening at that level. And no one is more embarrassed by them than good referees.

[Ben E Lou]

I am curious to know what you are 'wowing' about. There are so many things to wow about here. The story being total bullshit or that maybe the story is true or maybe that he is lying even further to cover for these thug kids. Sure there are a few other scenarios that I am missing off the top of my head.I can't imagine the assistant falling on his sword like this unless he actually *did* order it. That's the "wow" here--that it appears that a grown man was behind this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've refereed soccer and lacrosse for over a decade now. I also coach both sports, and the combination of incompetence and arrogance by some HS refs is truly mind-boggling. Not all, not most, but a certain select few who are there because there is zero accountability or grading happening at that level. And no one is more embarrassed by them than good referees.

We see a fair bit of that embarrassment you mention.

Earlier this season we had one official come over and apologize repeatedly for the utter bungling (in a misguided attempt to keep things close apparently) of another ref. I'd say that happens 2-3 games a year at least, the phrase "it's not me, and I'm sorry" isn't all THAT unusual to hear unfortunately.

[molson]

I've refereed soccer and lacrosse for over a decade now. I also coach both sports, and the combination of incompetence and arrogance by some HS refs is truly mind-boggling. Not all, not most, but a certain select few who are there because there is zero accountability or grading happening at that level. And no one is more embarrassed by them than good referees.

It probably takes a unique high-quality person to be able to deal with all of that bullshit from players, coaches, and parents without becoming an arrogant tool as a sort of defense mechanism. If I ever have the misfortune to be anywhere near a youth sports event ever again, I'm putting more money in the hat they pass around for refs, if they still do that.

[mckerney]

smh, now even kickers are getting in on it. props to him for having the dedication to still make the extra point when going after the refs though, at least he's still being a team player

Extra Point Off The Ref's Face Still Counts (http://deadspin.com/extra-point-off-the-refs-face-still-counts-1732775789)

[miami_fan]

I'm not a big gun guy but you start to wonder if refs should be carrying after a game.

Or during:D

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MAsp15UnhIM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not really trying to bring up this thread again but I remembered this post and thought the video would be appropriate.;)