Mizzou Player Strike

[Grover]

Missouri Football Players Go On Strike To Force Removal Of School President [UPDATE] (http://deadspin.com/missouri-football-players-go-on-strike-to-force-removal-1741242246)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Missouri Football Players Go On Strike To Force Removal Of School President [UPDATE] (http://deadspin.com/missouri-football-players-go-on-strike-to-force-removal-1741242246)

The door is over there gentlemen (and ladies, presumably). You don't want to play & live up to your free ride then you probably ought to be able to find on the same highway you rode in on & head back out the same way.

[panerd]

The door is over there gentlemen (and ladies, presumably). You don't want to play & live up to your free ride then you probably ought to be able to find on the same highway you rode in on & head back out the same way.

Your approach might cause some problems with future recruiting. Thas been going on around campus for a while now so I find the protest during a 4-5 season a little disingenuous. Ever since the Ferguson fiasco the campus has been brewing with a lot of pissed off people on both sides.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Your approach might cause some problems with future recruiting. Thas been going on around campus for a while now so I find the protest during a 4-5 season a little disingenuous. Ever since the Ferguson fiasco this campus has been brewing with a lot of pissed off people on both sides.

Anybody having a hissy over the Ferguson situation is someone any community - university or otherwise - would be better off without.

[Solecismic]

Your approach might cause some problems with future recruiting. Thas been going on around campus for a while now so I find the protest during a 4-5 season a little disingenuous. Ever since the Ferguson fiasco the campus has been brewing with a lot of pissed off people on both sides.

I read the MSM story about this, and it talks about a slow response to swastika-drawing this week. Are African-American students now showing solidarity with Jewish students? If so, that's interesting. It was largely Jewish kids who came down from the north during the '60s to march with them. I've always wondered why the two groups weren't a lot closer.

But I'd imagine the SEC might have a problem with forfeited games. And since it's looking like 14 teams is too many for a major conference, I wouldn't want to be the school that causes that kind of a problem. Sounds like the president's days are numbered (as in expect an announcement Monday).

[panerd]

Anybody having a hissy over the Ferguson situation is someone any community - university or otherwise - would be better off without.

Just curious what percentage of college football recruits you estimate are on each side of the Ferguson issue? I think it would make sense why this isn't a simple cut them all situation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just curious what percentage of college football recruits you estimate are on each side of the Ferguson issue?

I don't think all that highly of the intelligence or moral character of an exceptionally high percentage of college football recruits. Perhaps, in the grand scheme, universities would be better served to simply move on without them.

At was pointed out earlier, 4-5 and coming off an ass-whooping sure is a convenient time to suddenly go all social crusader.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I read the MSM story about this, and it talks about a slow response to swastika-drawing this week. Are African-American students now showing solidarity with Jewish students?

I almost have to assume this is a rhetorical question.

[nol]

I read the MSM story about this, and it talks about a slow response to swastika-drawing this week. Are African-American students now showing solidarity with Jewish students? If so, that's interesting. It was largely Jewish kids who came down from the north during the '60s to march with them. I've always wondered why the two groups weren't a lot closer.

But I'd imagine the SEC might have a problem with forfeited games. And since it's looking like 14 teams is too many for a major conference, I wouldn't want to be the school that causes that kind of a problem. Sounds like the president's days are numbered (as in expect an announcement Monday).

As has been previously documented in a few other threads, the swastika and the Confederate flag have been used interchangeably on both sides of the pond as symbols of white supremacy. This particular act of vandalism was carried out by someone who smeared their own shit on a bathroom wall, so I'd suspect it was due to a swastika being easier to make than the stars and bars.

[Ben E Lou]

Just curious what percentage of college football recruits you estimate are on each side of the Ferguson issue? I think it would make sense why this isn't a simple cut them all situation.I don't think all that highly of the intelligence or moral character of an exceptionally high percentage of college football recruits. Perhaps, in the grand scheme, universities would be better served to simply move on without them.Regardless of which side one comes down on this one, this tension is where this Mizzou thing gets...interesting. Revoke scholarships, kick them off the team, or whatever "they-broke-their-contract" response you want, and--because of the recruiting issue--your football program is toast. A player tweeted that the coaches are standing with them--"even the white coaches." If they ever want to be successful in CFB, do they really even have a choice? Don't voice support of the players in this situation, and every rival coach you ever recruit against for the rest of your career will gladly remind every black player you try to recruit of how you proved yourself to be an insensitive/racist/anti-player guy when you were at Mizzou.

I wonder if the players will be willing to negotiate. It seems that if not and he resigns, they've created a blueprint for college athletes to get whatever they want whenever they want.

Yes, I'm very interested to see how this one plays out.

[Ben E Lou]

New thread created.

[Dutch]

Missouri Tigers football players to strike until embattled Tim Wolfe resigns (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/14078494/missouri-tigers-football-players-strike-embattled-tim-wolfe-resigns)

Can somebody explain what Tim Wolfe did wrong? This particle article's explanation is shit.

[AlexB]

As has been previously documented in a few other threads, the swastika and the Confederate flag have been used interchangeably on both sides of the pond as symbols of white supremacy. This particular act of vandalism was carried out by someone who smeared their own shit on a bathroom wall, so I'd suspect it was due to a swastika being easier to make than the stars and bars.

Both the subject and writing material would also seem to back up Jon's point about the level of intelligence and character, in this case at least :D

[Dutch]

Can somebody explain what Tim Wolfe did wrong? This particle article's explanation is shit.

Um, btw, no pun intended. :)

[Ben E Lou]

Can somebody explain what Tim Wolfe did wrong? This particle article's explanation is shit.The main complaint seems to be more about inaction than action, though a comment he made to some students that was caught on video seemed to fuel the fire. He was asked something like "define systemic racism" and he said something along the lines of "systemic racism is when you think you haven't gotten a fair shake."

[Dutch]

Hmmm, I guess where I'm coming from is...I'd fire a racist. I'd fire a white-supremacist. I'd fire somebody for smearing crap on a wall. I might even fire him for making a bad decision after analyzing the situation.

I won't fire him because he took a week to address a concern. I won't fire him because some political activist group suggested I should fire him.

I'm just trying to get to the meat of the argument and I'm not getting the information I need. The video of him saying something poor regarding "Systematic Racism" suggests something sinister, but what if it takes me a week to get the info I need to truly make an informed opinion?

So for this dude, was he doing his due-diligence or was he sweeping it under the rug. That's the question I basically have. Then I could get him on negligence of his duties (if it's the later).

[Abe Sargent]

I just did some reading and found out there are more than just some athletes and folks, he's getting pressure from academic circles on campus as well.

[Abe Sargent]

So for this dude, was he doing his due-diligence or was he sweeping it under the rug. That's the question I basically have. Then I could get him on negligence of his duties (if it's the later).

There's no way due diligence on a CC campus for something easy like vandalism and a bias incident on top of that takes that long Most colleges have bias teams that respond extremely quickly to incidents, and with very high ups on it - it's a university standard. A week for that is way too long.

Plus it's long on the research end. We had some unfortunate vandalism in my residence hall over Halloween weekend. On Monday morning, I reviewed the tapes, printed out the suspects, asked around until I found out who it was, documented it, and then sent out an e-mail to my building letting then know what had happened, and how we had found those responsible. On Monday. The first work day back. It's highly unlikely that a high profile bias-case takes longer.

[panerd]

I just did some reading and found out there are more than just some athletes and folks, he's getting pressure from academic circles on campus as well.

Yes. This guy has hit the mother lode of the wrong people to piss off. There are racial issues that are certainly getting more play due to Ferguson, planned parenthood issues with the faculty, and in a completely different realm he tried taking apart the Greek system for drinking and sexual assault problems on campus. (More the channcellor on this one but I'm guessing they will all go) So let's just say he has very few friends. Faculty... No. Athletic department... No. Greek system... No. Don't think he will last through today.

With all that said none of these issues seems much different than the Mizzou I and to in the early 90's or a lot college campuses across the country. But in the gotcha social media world (sometimes good and sometimes bad) this is the job you have now as university president.

[Dutch]

There's no way due diligence on a CC campus for something easy like vandalism and a bias incident on top of that takes that long Most colleges have bias teams that respond extremely quickly to incidents, and with very high ups on it - it's a university standard. A week for that is way too long.

Plus it's long on the research end. We had some unfortunate vandalism in my residence hall over Halloween weekend. On Monday morning, I reviewed the tapes, printed out the suspects, asked around until I found out who it was, documented it, and then sent out an e-mail to my building letting then know what had happened, and how we had found those responsible. On Monday. The first work day back. It's highly unlikely that a high profile bias-case takes longer.

What did the president of the university say about it?

[JPhillips]

I wonder if the players will be willing to negotiate. It seems that if not and he resigns, they've created a blueprint for college athletes to get whatever they want whenever they want.

Yes, I'm very interested to see how this one plays out.

You can't blame the students for realizing that they have all power. This is the price for making athletics the dominant program on campus.

[Dutch]

You can't blame the students for realizing that they have all power. This is the price for making athletics the dominant program on campus.

And why I'm pretty sure that College Athletics (that make millions) need to either be restructured as a true school resource for more real (nationally needed) degrees like engineering and the sciences or just let it go and let Pro Footbal, Basketball, Baseball, and Hockey create feeder leagues for U21's where these athletes get paid for their efforts.

[TroyF]

Regardless of which side one comes down on this one, this tension is where this Mizzou thing gets...interesting. Revoke scholarships, kick them off the team, or whatever "they-broke-their-contract" response you want, and--because of the recruiting issue--your football program is toast. A player tweeted that the coaches are standing with them--"even the white coaches." If they ever want to be successful in CFB, do they really even have a choice? Don't voice support of the players in this situation, and every rival coach you ever recruit against for the rest of your career will gladly remind every black player you try to recruit of how you proved yourself to be an insensitive/racist/anti-player guy when you were at Mizzou.

I wonder if the players will be willing to negotiate. It seems that if not and he resigns, they've created a blueprint for college athletes to get whatever they want whenever they want.

Yes, I'm very interested to see how this one plays out.


This was/is where I am. It's fascinating on so many levels.

There is zero doubt how this is going to play out. The prez is going to resign. Not just because of his football team, but because this involves race on any level and the fact he has no support from anyone else. That will always equal instant death.

We are now an outrage society and no public figure can survive too much of it.

[JPhillips]

And why I'm pretty sure that College Athletics (that make millions) need to either be restructured as a true school resource for more real (nationally needed) degrees like engineering and the sciences or just let it go and let Pro Footbal, Basketball, Baseball, and Hockey create feeder leagues for U21's where these athletes get paid for their efforts.

This.

I think the athletes should be paid, but I also think colleges, especially public colleges, shouldn't be subsidizing athletics. The soccer system in Europe generally works well. If teams want to develop athletes, let them foot the bill.

[Dutch]

This.

I think the athletes should be paid.

Agreed. And students should not be paid. What an amazing conflict of interest that creates.

What's next after this most recent racial divide? It won't be long before we get the "old rich white folks are slaving black kids" mantra and at that point, the system will start to meltdown and we'll get national support for professional development leagues and we can stop with this farce of giving athletes educations that they aren't apply themselves towards anyway.

[nol]

There's no way due diligence on a CC campus for something easy like vandalism and a bias incident on top of that takes that long Most colleges have bias teams that respond extremely quickly to incidents, and with very high ups on it - it's a university standard. A week for that is way too long.

Exactly. Think of how quickly Oklahoma shut down that racist frat.

[Dutch]

Exactly. Think of how quickly Oklahoma shut down that racist frat.

That was obvious as hell though...

[digamma]

This.

I think the athletes should be paid, but I also think colleges, especially public colleges, shouldn't be subsidizing athletics. The soccer system in Europe generally works well. If teams want to develop athletes, let them foot the bill.

Should colleges subsidize any student activities?

[Dutch]

Additional Info...

Brandon Kiley on Twitter: "Here they are - the list of demands from #ConcernedStudent1950. https://t.co/Ofev5jjra1" (https://twitter.com/BKSportsTalk/status/663194231029166080/photo/1)

http://chancellor.missouri.edu/news/chancellors-response/

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/um-president-to-meet-with-student-protesters-students-give-list/article_d457c737-64b0-5db1-b21d-11d07ef14917.html

[BYU 14]

In regard to items 5 and 6

5 - Shouldn't faculty and staff be hired on basis of merit and not forced affirmative action? In order to meet this demand do you let current staff go, who may be every bit deserving or more deserving of those brought in to replace them? Sorry, nothing should be done just to increase a certain demographic. It should be based on qualifications and those that have done nothing to warrant dismissal to accommodate this should be penalized.

6 - Doesn't the University already have programs like this in place for ALL marginalized students regardless of ethnicity? I showed my wife this demand and her first thought is it actually has a negative affect. That it is almost insinuating that some ethnicities are not capable of succeeding themselves without having access to assistance above and beyond that of any other group of students.

[JPhillips]

Should colleges subsidize any student activities?

Fair point. They can have equal the subsidies for Sibling Weekend.

[JPhillips]

In regard to items 5 and 6

5 - Shouldn't faculty and staff be hired on basis of merit and not forced affirmative action? In order to meet this demand do you let current staff go, who may be every bit deserving or more deserving of those brought in to replace them? Sorry, nothing should be done just to increase a certain demographic. It should be based on qualifications and those that have done nothing to warrant dismissal to accommodate this should be penalized.

That's assuming there's an obvious better candidate for every position. Having done academic hiring, there's a lot of similarity in candidates. Occasionally you find one that's obviously better, but most often you're making final decisions based on specialty interests of the candidate and/or personality.

That being said, I don't know if that's a good remedy at UM as I don't know nearly enough about the demographics of faculty/staff.

[BYU 14]

And dola on the "white male privilege" This is such bullshit IMO. Does white privilege exist? Yes, but the correct definition should be rich male privilege, which certainly encompasses mostly white males, but certainly does not encompass a whole fucking demographic. Maybe word your demand a bit better to capture the where the true privilege benefits a select few and hurts many others regardless of race.

I have certainly not gotten to where I am in my career because of privilege, it has been earned over the 25 year career in my industry. I have no problem talking about tough racial issues and am very involved in them.

Lets but down on the stereotypes that encompass such a broad swath of people and focus on where the privilege truly exists.

[Dutch]

In regard to items 5 and 6

5 - Shouldn't faculty and staff be hired on basis of merit and not forced affirmative action? In order to meet this demand do you let current staff go, who may be every bit deserving or more deserving of those brought in to replace them? Sorry, nothing should be done just to increase a certain demographic. It should be based on qualifications and those that have done nothing to warrant dismissal to accommodate this should be penalized.

6 - Doesn't the University already have programs like this in place for ALL marginalized students regardless of ethnicity? I showed my wife this demand and her first thought is it actually has a negative affect. That it is almost insinuating that some ethnicities are not capable of succeeding themselves without having access to assistance above and beyond that of any other group of students.

With regard to #1, the dude must admit his "white male privilege" or they will not accept him staying employed at the university. That's some crazy (concernedstudent) 1950's white-folk logic right there.

[RainMaker]

Additional Info...

Brandon Kiley on Twitter: "Here they are - the list of demands from #ConcernedStudent1950. https://t.co/Ofev5jjra1" (https://twitter.com/BKSportsTalk/status/663194231029166080/photo/1)

http://chancellor.missouri.edu/news/chancellors-response/

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/um-president-to-meet-with-student-protesters-students-give-list/article_d457c737-64b0-5db1-b21d-11d07ef14917.html

Why not just have them teach each other? Seems like they feel they are smarter than everyone else.

[Dutch]

And dola on the "white male privilege" This is such bullshit IMO. Does white privilege exist? Yes, but the correct definition should be rich male privilege, which certainly encompasses mostly white males, but certainly does not encompass a whole fucking demographic. Maybe word your demand a bit better to capture the where the true privilege benefits a select few and hurts many others regardless of race.

I have certainly not gotten to where I am in my career because of privilege, it has been earned over the 25 year career in my industry. I have no problem talking about tough racial issues and am very involved in them.

Lets but down on the stereotypes that encompass such a broad swath of people and focus on where the privilege truly exists.

The demands are being made by very young people with no life experiences, they aren't perfect. :)

[BYU 14]

That's assuming there's an obvious better candidate for every position. Having done academic hiring, there's a lot of similarity in candidates. Occasionally you find one that's obviously better, but most often you're making final decisions based on specialty interests of the candidate and/or personality.

That being said, I don't know if that's a good remedy at UM as I don't know nearly enough about the demographics of faculty/staff.

And I totally agree with and support this, again as long as everyone is given an equal opportunity, it meets the needs (not wants) of the institution and you are not removing someone just as qualified, or more so for the sake of increasing a certain demographic.

[BYU 14]

The demands are being made by very young people with no life experiences, they aren't perfect. :)

I know, nor are any of us, which is why this should be a point of discussion and not a demand.

And please don't misinterpret my responses as dismissive to these students as I know they bring up some very real and important issues. I completely support this overall, just feel they are a bit off base on some things.

[JPhillips]

Why not just have them teach each other? Seems like they feel they are smarter than everyone else.

That's just college students these days.

[Dutch]

I know, nor are any of us, which is why this should be a point of discussion and not a demand.

Agreed.

[Dutch]

That's just college students these days.

Maybe we can replace the teachers with kiosks...

[NobodyHere]

Maybe we can replace the teachers with kiosks...

I've had online classes that were pretty much like that.

[Dutch]

I've had online classes that were pretty much like that.

hehe...me too. :)

[RainMaker]

That's just college students these days.

The whole thing is weird. Not specific to this but all over the country. 20 year olds telling professors how to teach their classes and administrators how to run their schools. If you're smarter than them, why are you spending money to go to college?

[molson]

I'm not sure what any of those allegations have to do with the president, but it's pretty shocking to me that students are still acting like that. I know there's been different examples of stuff like that at fraternities, like that Oklahoma deal, but it just all reminds me of how sheltered I am. I've never seen or heard anything like that in my life, outward racial harassment, and I went to college 20 years ago at a fairly diverse university, and went to an even more diverse high school. I know white privilege and institutional racism was and is a part of schools everywhere, but its disturbing how many young people are still in the mindset of individually deciding to use racial slurs to harass people. And the student who apparently made a swastika in a bathroom out of shit - that's some commitment to their way of thinking.

[panerd]

I'm not sure what any of those allegations have to do with the president, but it's pretty shocking to me that students are still acting like that. I know there's been different examples of stuff like that at fraternities, like that Oklahoma deal, but it just all reminds me of how sheltered I am. I've never seen or heard anything like that in my life, outward racial harassment, and I went to college 20 years ago at a fairly diverse university, and went to an even more diverse high school. I know white privilege and institutional racism was and is a part of schools everywhere, but its disturbing how many young people are still in the mindset of individually deciding to use racial slurs to harass people. And the student who apparently made a swastika in a bathroom out of shit - that's some commitment to their way of thinking.

There are St. Louis and Kansas City which have large black populations. White populations in the counties of both cities that are somewhat mixed on racial attitudes. (I think both voted for Obama in both elections). And then there is the rest of the state. I guess Columbia is a tiny bit liberal but that is only because of the students and not the residents. None of these stories surprise me and this was what Mizzou was like when I was there. You actually would have probably created a shitstorm of controversy if you do this when you are one game removed from the national title game when an openly gay player. Twitter might have exploded.

But again I ask why now? Why not during their top ten ranked seasons the past two years? Why not when they were highly ranked and 3-0 early in the year. It is just a big eye roll to me that they are now fired up about racial issues after rolling off five losses including an ass kicking Thursday night.

[Dutch]

including an ass kicking Thursday night.

I know right, now they act all Bulldog-ish? :)

[nol]

But again I ask why now? Why not during their top ten ranked seasons the past two years? Why not when they were highly ranked and 3-0 early in the year. It is just a big eye roll to me that they are now fired up about racial issues after rolling off five losses including an ass kicking Thursday night.

Because it's in solidarity with a larger student movement that began in response to recent events. Pretty crazy that African-American football players could have concerns beyond scoring touchdowns and making panerd happy with a win every Saturday, but that's the world we live in.

[Ben E Lou]

A player tweeted that the coaches are standing with them--"even the white coaches." If they ever want to be successful in CFB, do they really even have a choice? Don't voice support of the players in this situation, and every rival coach you ever recruit against for the rest of your career will gladly remind every black player you try to recruit of how you proved yourself to be an insensitive/racist/anti-player guy when you were at Mizzou.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Mizzou Family stands as one. We are united. We are behind our players. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ConcernedStudent1950?src=hash">#ConcernedStudent1950</a> GP <a href="https://t.co/fMHbPPTTKl">pic.twitter.com/fMHbPPTTKl</a></p>&mdash; Coach Gary Pinkel (@GaryPinkel) <a href="https://twitter.com/GaryPinkel/status/663410502370856960">November 8, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[digamma]

Wow. That's fairly powerful.

[panerd]

Because it's in solidarity with a larger student movement that began in response to recent events. Pretty crazy that African-American football players could have concerns beyond scoring touchdowns and making panerd happy with a win every Saturday, but that's the world we live in.

Thanks for not reading anything I have written in the entire thread but your typical race flaming is noted.

[nol]

Thanks for not reading anything I have written in the entire thread but your typical race flaming is noted.

OK, so your insinuation is that the football players (never mind that they have the support of the entire coaching staff) are using this as an excuse to quit on their team and school when really they're just mad that the team has a losing record. Therefore, they aren't "true Mizzou Tigers" so good riddance to them. That's even stupider, so I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[CU Tiger]

I'm personally confounded here. I actually agree with the stance and the sentiment behind the stance.

I'm not a big fan of the "demands" and I HATE any institution cowering to hostage demands on my shear principle alone.

[panerd]

OK, so your insinuation is that the football players (never mind that they have the support of the entire coaching staff) are using this as an excuse to quit on their team and school when really they're just mad that the team has a losing record. Therefore, they aren't "true Mizzou Tigers" so good riddance to them. That's even stupider, so I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Nope didn't say that either. I have posted about six times in the thread. I'm very familiar with Columbia... My brother lives there and I lived there for ten years. Again you are welcome to read my posts or just make ridiculous recaps but I know you are a race baiter so I don't expect any intelligent dialogue from you anyways.

[digamma]

Demand 1 is definitely over the top, and I have no knowledge of what the 1969 demands were, but the others seem very workable.

[nol]

so I don't expect any intelligent dialogue from you anyways.

:lol: says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

[panerd]

:lol: says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

I see you still haven't read any of my posts in this thread but now you decided to add the dumb white guy accent because you know race baiting is even more fun you don't read and just post nonsense.

[JPhillips]

The whole thing is weird. Not specific to this but all over the country. 20 year olds telling professors how to teach their classes and administrators how to run their schools. If you're smarter than them, why are you spending money to go to college?

The industry has spent a couple of decades selling the student as customer model and the customer is always right. I actually understand the attitude, even if I disagree with it. We tell them X money will get Y diploma and Z job. When that equation gets threatened due to poor grades they feel like they've been lied to.

[ISiddiqui]

Thanks for not reading anything I have written in the entire thread but your typical race flaming is noted.

It was definitely a reasonable insinuation as to what you wrote, to be honest. I had the same (non posted, obv) response as nol did to your post. You may not have intended it, but that's how it came across.

FWIW, I think this is actually somewhat inspiring. And for the entire team and coaches to back them as well. That's some fantastic civil disobedience stuff. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been proud, I think.

[Dutch]

Demand 1 is definitely over the top, and I have no knowledge of what the 1969 demands were, but the others seem very workable.

Would you be cool if they added another one to ensure that at least 75% of the players were white? Or is that gonna relate back to the "white privilege" of #1 and therefore void?

[Dutch]

:lol: says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

To be fair, you've glossed over those concerns as well, but not the opportunity to suggest somebody's racist, per usual.

[nol]

To be fair, you've glossed over those concerns as well, but not the opportunity to suggest somebody's racist, per usual.

No, I already understood those concerns, as well as the fact that things had gotten signficantly worse over the past week or two (shit swastika was October 24). That's why I didn't need to repeatedly question the timing in the first place.

Thas been going on around campus for a while now so I find the protest during a 4-5 season a little disingenuous.

But again I ask why now? Why not during their top ten ranked seasons the past two years? Why not when they were highly ranked and 3-0 early in the year. It is just a big eye roll to me that they are now fired up about racial issues after rolling off five losses including an ass kicking Thursday night.

He asked, I answered.

[B & B]

As foretold in prophecy..........


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZoWc6WRHKEE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[digamma]

Would you be cool if they added another one to ensure that at least 75% of the players were white? Or is that gonna relate back to the "white privilege" of #1 and therefore void?

Are you that fixated on the 10% number? Seems an odd thing to focus on. Like I said the first demand reads over the top, but the others are well crafted and seem to have a good amount of thought behind them. I'll give you the fact that I haven't researched the Missouri university system hiring demographics and hard quotas aren't typically the best policy, but target numbers can be helpful in measuring progress and eliminating more subtle forms of discrimination.

[tarcone]

A bunch of students are a hunger strike.

[NobodyHere]

Why should there be any number?

[SackAttack]

Why should there be any number?

Because different backgrounds bring different worldviews to the table, and part of higher education is learning to critically examine things from multiple viewpoints?

That doesn't mean that 10% is magically the right number, but 10% is better than 5%. Or 1%.

I mean, the whole "viewpoints" battle is being fought in primary education, too; it's just that the students at that level aren't sufficiently sophisticated to be able to advocate for "hey, these marginalized groups aren't getting a seat at the table."

I mean, good Lord. Look at the shitstorm it causes when people suggest that, "hey, maybe Christopher Columbus isn't somebody we should be celebrating, because he was a really dark dude who did some awful shit in the process of "discovering the New World.'"

Now think about how, if it's that difficult for people of a certain background to acknowledge that about a guy who's been dead for four hundred years, how much harder it is to get traction on other, more recent, issues. Particularly within certain collegiate disciplines (history comes to mind). If you increase minority participation at the staff level, you bring in people whose walk in life has been different, and who thus bring different perspectives to various liberal arts studies (that's not to say minority participation doesn't matter in math or science, but the extent to which it matters differs from liberal arts, where course selection is going to be much more a matter of the focus of the faculty members' respective studies).

[NobodyHere]

Meh, any idiot can get a different viewpoints by spending 5 minutes on the internet, but hiring somebody by the color of their skin seems racist.

[nol]

Meh, any idiot can get a different viewpoints by spending 5 minutes on the internet, but hiring somebody by the color of their skin seems racist.

It sure does (http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873), which is why such policies are in place.

[NobodyHere]

So crack down on the real problem. I'm not a big fan of fighting racism with more racism.

[nol]

So crack down on the real problem. I'm not a big fan of fighting racism with more racism.

So you would be happier with requiring everyone to fill out a resume as John Doe from 123 Main Street, using an e-mail address that obscures all personal details, and banning in-person job interviews? That seems like a lot of hoops to jump through to achieve the same result.

But really, responding any more to that particular point is just letting you move the goalposts. Obviously all demands by the students could be negotiated, but the bulk of the issue has been that the university president has been at best willfully obtuse and at worst downright antagonistic towards their concerns. If at any point in the past few weeks or months this person had put out even the most generic "We are all Mizzou Tigers and we are committed to providing a safe environment and preventing harassment" type of statement, it would not have gotten this far.

[RainMaker]

If it's a matter of diversity among faculty, it would seem the complaint should be against Asian faculty. They currently make up 16% of the staff yet only 2% of the students are Asian.

[Dutch]

Are you that fixated on the 10% number? Seems an odd thing to focus on. Like I said the first demand reads over the top, but the others are well crafted and seem to have a good amount of thought behind them. I'll give you the fact that I haven't researched the Missouri university system hiring demographics and hard quotas aren't typically the best policy, but target numbers can be helpful in measuring progress and eliminating more subtle forms of discrimination.

I measure success by equal opportunity, not by equal right. So I will always cringe when I see things like that. I would rather focus on *why* the numbers aren't where they should be...kind of like how we have successfully done with the athletes themselves. A long time ago, all the black athlete needed was an opportunity to prove him or herself...not a quota. It's a stupid idea that does nothing but divide us. Like I've said in this thread, if the prez is a road block because he's a racist or white supremacist or incompetent...or basically anything that is hampering his ability to be fair towards all students... he needs to go...but what if he isn't any of those things? What if he is concerned about all kids but isn't making rash changes with discussing them with his staff? I don't know what's going on though (hence the earlier call for better information ) I don't believe he should be scared and lay down and accept demands like these...if it takes time to thoughtfully do the job, then the students need to chill.

In any event, back to the list of demands, If UM were to give up on equal opportunity and go the equal share route, are you okay with that being in all aspects of this school or not? That's what I'm asking.

[CraigSca]

Heard this morning (via ESPON) that not all the players are on board with the cancellation of football activities. "Half the team and coaches - black and white - are pissed."

[Dutch]

Can somebody explain what Tim Wolfe did wrong? This particle article's explanation is shit.

Because it's in solidarity with a larger student movement that began in response to recent events. Pretty crazy that African-American football players could have concerns beyond scoring touchdowns and making panerd happy with a win every Saturday, but that's the world we live in.

OK, so your insinuation is that the football players (never mind that they have the support of the entire coaching staff) are using this as an excuse to quit on their team and school when really they're just mad that the team has a losing record. Therefore, they aren't "true Mizzou Tigers" so good riddance to them. That's even stupider, so I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

:lol: says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

To be fair, you've glossed over those concerns as well, but not the opportunity to suggest somebody's racist, per usual.

No, I already understood those concerns, as well as the fact that things had gotten signficantly worse over the past week or two (shit swastika was October 24). That's why I didn't need to repeatedly question the timing in the first place.

He asked, I answered.

Sorry, nol, in this thread, I asked what he did wrong because I couldn't figure out based on the articles that I read what it was that he failed at so badly that they want him to sign some wildly racist document that said he was a "white privileged male". The only responses I saw from you were mean-spirited, at best...when you could've actually helped me or other "white folks" out since you "already understood those concerns".

[Dutch]

Heard this morning (via ESPON) that not all the players are on board with the cancellation of football activities. "Half the team and coaches - black and white - are pissed."

So the players are PRO-CHOICE? Interesting dilemma.

[panerd]

So the players are PRO-CHOICE? Interesting dilemma.

I know you are making a joke but just wait. The real crux of this whole issue is going to come out sometime this week and it is all about the chancellor and his stance on planned parenthood. The rest is window dressing and a bunch of college kids being roped into fighting a battle for the teachers. They tried getting rid of him already a few weeks ago.

And before Nol posts some nonsense about black people of course there are racial problems on the campus. In the five/six posts that he ignored from me I said the city and campus have some serious problems. Doesn't mean that is what this is about and doesn't mean I can't question the timing.

More than 2,000 petitions delivered to MU chancellor Loftin | FOX2now.com (http://fox2now.com/2015/11/03/more-than-2000-petitions-delivered-to-mu-chancellor-loftin/)

Rep.: Chancellor Loftin's job on the line over Planned Parenthood | KOMU.com | Columbia, MO | (http://www.komu.com/news/rep-chancellor-loftin-s-job-on-the-line-over-planned-parenthood/)

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/university-of-missouri-ends-clinical-privileges-for-planned-parenthood-doctor/article_4246f42d-23d8-5c3a-ae55-5a548f09fc6a.html

[panerd]

It was definitely a reasonable insinuation as to what you wrote, to be honest. I had the same (non posted, obv) response as nol did to your post. You may not have intended it, but that's how it came across.

FWIW, I think this is actually somewhat inspiring. And for the entire team and coaches to back them as well. That's some fantastic civil disobedience stuff. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been proud, I think.

Fair enough. I clearly am not articulating my stance very well. However I still will say that I have made plenty of posts in this thread talking about racism at Mizzou and the chancellor and his problems with the Greeks and planned parenthood. Nol just chose to jump on the one that he could go into his race bag of tricks on.

If anything I selfishly wouldn't mind seeing the guy fired because me and my friends are going to the game next week, my brother has a big thing planned this week in KC, and I love Mizzou football. So him putting words in my mouth about some sort of JiMGa "kick em all out of school!" is 180 degrees from my stance.

[Dutch]

If anything I selfishly wouldn't mind seeing the guy fired because me and my friends are going to the game next week

Way to go, nol just scratched you off his Christmas card list. This isn't about scoring touchdowns, Panerd!

[panerd]

Way to go, nol just scratched you off his Christmas card list. This isn't about scoring touchdowns, Panerd!

It's frustrating. This happened in the Ferguson thread as well. When that event first happened a bunch of people were describing this St. Louis "suburb" like it was Mayfield from Leave it to Beaver or something. The same thing is going on here with the limited information the media is latching onto about Mizzou. So of course Nol is an expert and people that actually know something are racist idiots. What's more surprising is that some of the other familiar faces haven't appeared yet. I guess the Huffington Post and Slate.com haven't given them enough talking points yet.

[digamma]

In any event, back to the list of demands, If UM were to give up on equal opportunity and go the equal share route, are you okay with that being in all aspects of this school or not? That's what I'm asking.

Well, given that I told you I was not generally in favor of hard quotas, I think you know my answer here, but this isn't a real question either. Is there a pattern or history of systemic under representation of white athletes at Missouri? And is it, even in part, based on their race? If no, what problem are you trying to fix?

[digamma]

And I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answer here. It's just easy to speak in platitudes and absolutes when the underlying issues are really really complex, from a lot of different angles.

[JPhillips]

I know you are making a joke but just wait. The real crux of this whole issue is going to come out sometime this week and it is all about the chancellor and his stance on planned parenthood. The rest is window dressing and a bunch of college kids being roped into fighting a battle for the teachers. They tried getting rid of him already a few weeks ago.

And before Nol posts some nonsense about black people of course there are racial problems on the campus. In the five/six posts that he ignored from me I said the city and campus have some serious problems. Doesn't mean that is what this is about and doesn't mean I can't question the timing.

More than 2,000 petitions delivered to MU chancellor Loftin | FOX2now.com (http://fox2now.com/2015/11/03/more-than-2000-petitions-delivered-to-mu-chancellor-loftin/)

Rep.: Chancellor Loftin's job on the line over Planned Parenthood | KOMU.com | Columbia, MO | (http://www.komu.com/news/rep-chancellor-loftin-s-job-on-the-line-over-planned-parenthood/)

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/university-of-missouri-ends-clinical-privileges-for-planned-parenthood-doctor/article_4246f42d-23d8-5c3a-ae55-5a548f09fc6a.html

So the students are being manipulated by faculty to complain about documented racial insensitivity issues? If it weren't for faculty angry about a denied appointment, none of this would be happening?

[Dutch]

Well, given that I told you I was not generally in favor of hard quotas, I think you know my answer here, but this isn't a real question either. Is there a pattern or history of systemic under representation of white athletes at Missouri? And is it, even in part, based on their race? If no, what problem are you trying to fix?

I'm glad that you aren't. I think it's a no-win solution. In any event, I'm trying to see what the reaction would be if it were white kids posting demands for more access to football scholarships. It's kind of hard when it's based on equal opportunity...which is the point. You must always strive for that and when you have equal opportunity (versus some nebulus equal right based on your skin pigmentation) then the argument for why things are the way they are stands on it's own. Quotas will make us lose sight of the ultimate goal we are trying to achieve in this country.

[Dutch]

And I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answer here. It's just easy to speak in platitudes and absolutes when the underlying issues are really really complex, from a lot of different angles.

Good point. Another reason I don't think we should burn this president at the stake because he didn't have the answer within 24 hours.

[panerd]

So the students are being manipulated by faculty to complain about documented racial insensitivity issues? If it weren't for faculty angry about a denied appointment, none of this would be happening?

The students are being manipulated by Jonathan Butler. (The hunger strike guy right now) Sort of a jack of all trades in the University of Missouri protest movement.

The start of a movement: Graduate students walk out &ndash; The Maneater (http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2015/8/26/start-movement-graduate-students-walk-out/)

Here is the list of different protests/issues so far this year (like most college campuses some of the protests are legit and some are just protests to protest)...

The Maneater – Special Section – A Historic Fall at MU (http://www.themaneater.com/special-sections/mu-fall-2015/)

My whole point is this only gains national traction because somehow the football team is convinced to get involved. And back to my "racist" point... if the football team is 8-1 or 9-0 and not 4-5 does any of this happen?

[TroyF]

And I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answer here. It's just easy to speak in platitudes and absolutes when the underlying issues are really really complex, from a lot of different angles.

Actually, it's rather hard to speak on issues like this anymore. You can have a reasoned opinion, but if someone believes you framed it in the wrong way, it can be extremely damaging.

I have mixed emotions on all of this. I've read the "demand" letter and find about 30% of it is nonsense. I agree with some of it though and think the university should take some action. If race relations are truly poor in Columbia, there should be and should have been some things done to TRY to improve things.

Problem for this president now. . . Anyone and I mean anyone who says ANYTHING against this protest, is going to be hit with the racist label. He really has no chance in hell of surviving this thing. He may have been a good president, he may have been garbage, he may be the next Hitler. None of that matters. He is "wrong" on certain issues in his work environment. It's time to let this thing play out. He needs to resign, the university will hire a new president, things will stay the same and everyone can start pretending that "healing" has begun.

[JPhillips]

The students are being manipulated by Jonathan Butler. (The hunger strike guy right now) Sort of a jack of all trades in the University of Missouri protest movement.

The start of a movement: Graduate students walk out &ndash; The Maneater (http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2015/8/26/start-movement-graduate-students-walk-out/)

Here is the list of different protests/issues so far this year (like most college campuses some of the protests are legit and some are just protests to protest)...

The Maneater – Special Section – A Historic Fall at MU (http://www.themaneater.com/special-sections/mu-fall-2015/)

My whole point is this only gains national traction because somehow the football team is convinced to get involved. And back to my "racist" point... if the football team is 8-1 or 9-0 and not 4-5 does any of this happen?

Saying someone worked to convince the football team to join is a whole lot different than saying the racial issues wouldn't be an issue if it were for faculty manipulating things behind the scenes.

[ISiddiqui]

Fair enough. I clearly am not articulating my stance very well. However I still will say that I have made plenty of posts in this thread talking about racism at Mizzou and the chancellor and his problems with the Greeks and planned parenthood. Nol just chose to jump on the one that he could go into his race bag of tricks on.

If anything I selfishly wouldn't mind seeing the guy fired because me and my friends are going to the game next week, my brother has a big thing planned this week in KC, and I love Mizzou football. So him putting words in my mouth about some sort of JiMGa "kick em all out of school!" is 180 degrees from my stance.

I don't particularly think "race bag of tricks" is a helpful statement. IIRC, nol is African-American? If so, I can understand being a bit more touchy. I gave you more of a benefit of the doubt, but I'm South Asian, so it's different for me.

[panerd]

Saying someone worked to convince the football team to join is a whole lot different than saying the racial issues wouldn't be an issue if it were for faculty manipulating things behind the scenes.

Sure but my point all along has been there are certainly racial issues but the poop swastika makes for a convenient cover for Jonathan Butler's agenda.

[Dutch]

I don't particularly think "race bag of tricks" is a helpful statement. IIRC, nol is African-American? If so, I can understand being a bit more touchy. I gave you more of a benefit of the doubt, but I'm South Asian, so it's different for me.

He's also highly educated and exceptionally bright, so I expect better from him.

[cartman]

Tim Wolfe just resigned.

[ISiddiqui]

He's also highly educated and exceptionally bright, so I expect better from him.

When you feel attacked, you are going to be more upset than those who can stand by the side. Especially when its been going on for ages, and people simply can't understand, or act like they can't understand. Plenty of highly educated and exceptionally bright people can't figure out stuff like... oh white privilege to bring up something earlier from this thread - and that's like elementary school stuff.

[panerd]

He's also highly educated and exceptionally bright, so I expect better from him.

Yep. I am usually a lot more lenient of even the most liberal on these issues but this guy is just a race baiter. If he wants to use a fake Southern accent mocking me, having never met me, I hardly feel sorry for him just because he is black.

[panerd]

Tim Wolfe just resigned.

Probably a good thing long term but a terrible precedent to set.

[digamma]

Yep. I am usually a lot more lenient of even the most liberal on these issues but this guy is just a race baiter. If he wants to use a fake Southern accent mocking me, having never met me, I hardly feel sorry for him just because he is black.

Honestly, dude? No one is asking you to feel sorry for anyone. But this kind of statement, even if just careless, demonstrates the lack of sensitivity and awareness you have repeatedly shown on this issue (regardless of the positions nol has taken).

[digamma]

Yes, really.

[ISiddiqui]

Whoa... panerd, WTF?

[panerd]

Deleting questionable messages. No conspiracy just never really intended to derail thread.

[bob]

Wonder how long until player strikes to get paid happen. Wonder how many teams it would take.

Edit: I'm not connecting this instance with the pay-for-play issue, but players will see the power that a football team has if they threaten to walk off, mid-season.

[Subby]

I hardly feel sorry for him just because he is black.This is a weird thing to say.

[molson]

Wonder how long until player strikes to get paid happen. Wonder how many teams it would take.

Edit: I'm not connecting this instance with the pay-for-play issue, but players will see the power that a football team has if they threaten to walk off, mid-season.

I was just thinking that. And I don't think it would be a bad thing. These universities have set these teams up as the most important things at the schools. Partly because they derive so much benefit from that relationship without having to give up much. There is so much money tied up in these players. A mid-level program can get rid of the school president in 2 days, they can obviously accomplish much more with more players and more time. I'd love to see more players be inspired by this and scare the shit out of universities and the NCAA.

[BishopMVP]

And I totally agree with and support this, again as long as everyone is given an equal opportunity, it meets the needs (not wants) of the institution and you are not removing someone just as qualified, or more so for the sake of increasing a certain demographic.
Are you that fixated on the 10% number? Seems an odd thing to focus on. Like I said the first demand reads over the top, but the others are well crafted and seem to have a good amount of thought behind them. I'll give you the fact that I haven't researched the Missouri university system hiring demographics and hard quotas aren't typically the best policy, but target numbers can be helpful in measuring progress and eliminating more subtle forms of discrimination.Did a quick lookup out of curiosity. Missouri is 11.8% black (nationally 13.2%). U of M is about 8% black (after taking out int'l students) with another 4-5% "multiple ethnicities" or refused to answer (compared to 2.1% statewide). The faculty is 3.25% black, although as Rainmaker pointed out if you're comparing it to student numbers the real disparity appears to be Asian faculty are overrepresented. Fwiw, I don't have exact numbers on the football team, but I'd say it's clear that black players make up more than 11.8% of it. (I did love the quick attempt to see if they could field a team with just white players. O-Line? No problem. QB? Future 1st ballot Hall if Famer Drew Lock still here. Wait, there's not a single CB even on the roster? No shit.)

I do also find it ridiculous that an allegedly slow or insufficient reaction to a poop swastika was the straw that broke the camel's back. I know that Nazism is tied into white supremacism, but my first reaction to that would be to assume a complete idiot, quite probably either really drunk or with serious mental health issues, did something to provoke people, and if it was seriously targeting a single group that Jews would be the most likely answer (with black students and communists a distant 2nd). This isn't a burning cross or something that obviously is directed at black people/students.

[digamma]

The irony here is that we scream that players are set aside from the student body and placed on pedestals. Then when they get involved in a non-athletic issue, we scream at them to get back on the field where they belong. It's an interesting contrast.

[Subby]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Conservative white dude wrings hands over dangers of public exerting control of public institution; irony falls from sky like rain.</p>&mdash; Turkbert Cransauceko (@AlbertBurneko) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlbertBurneko/status/663764573099462656">November 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[albionmoonlight]

I have not followed this story. I have not read this thread. I have no opinion on the rightness or wrongness of the protest.

But if the message this sends is that football is so important that the players on a 4-5 team can get their president fired by threatening not to play . . . then I wonder what further developments will occur.

What's to stop the players from, say, Alabama and Florida saying the week before the SEC Championship one year that they will refuse to play unless college athletes start to get paid a salary?

[Dutch]

Yep. I am usually a lot more lenient of even the most liberal on these issues but this guy is just a race baiter. If he wants to use a fake Southern accent mocking me, having never met me, I hardly feel sorry for him just because he is black.

Agreed. He uses that shit way too much.

[Dutch]

I have not followed this story. I have not read this thread. I have no opinion on the rightness or wrongness of the protest.

But if the message this sends is that football is so important that the players on a 4-5 team can get their president fired by threatening not to play . . . then I wonder what further developments will occur.

What's to stop the players from, say, Alabama and Florida saying the week before the SEC Championship one year that they will refuse to play unless college athletes start to get paid a salary?

Exactly. Which means we should probably look at the root cause of the problem. There is no such thing as a student/athlete. Well, no such thing when the athlete part generates millions of dollars. The best thing to do is to get money-making sports out of the university system. We made it so profitable, that the only solution is to tear it down now. Oh the irony...

[NobodyHere]

Tim Wolfe just resigned.

Did he admit his "white privilege" as per demand #1?

[Ben E Lou]

But if the message this sends is that football is so important that the players on a 4-5 team can get their president fired by threatening not to play . . . then I wonder what further developments will occur.You beat me to what I am thinking. Similarly, I have not looked at it deeply enough to know who is "right." However, the fact is that there have been student protests, complaints from faculty, etc. etc. etc., and those had little/no impact, but when a mediocre college football team threw its weight around, dude was gone in a flash.

[Dutch]

Did he admit his "white privilege" as per demand #1?

Nope, he gets to maintain his "white power...err...privilege". Lucky break! :)

[Dutch]

You beat me to what I am thinking. Similarly, I have not looked at it deeply enough to know who is "right." However, the fact is that there have been student protests, complaints from faculty, etc. etc. etc., and those had little/no impact, but when a mediocre college football team threw its weight around, dude was gone in a flash.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This has been an issue a long time in the making. There's not a huge population causing these issues. It's very small, but obviously even one who is vocal through acts or words is a problem.

The bigger issue is that admins have tried to gloss over these kinds of things as best as they can when it happens. They need to address it much more directly and forcefully when it happens going forward to avoid further issues. The leadership needs to be much better.

[nol]

I have not followed this story. I have not read this thread. I have no opinion on the rightness or wrongness of the protest.

But if the message this sends is that football is so important that the players on a 4-5 team can get their president fired by threatening not to play . . . then I wonder what further developments will occur.

Or it underscores the root cause of the protest, namely that non-football-playing minorities were ignored by the school administration.

[Dutch]

Or it underscores the root cause of the protest, namely that non-football-playing minorities were ignored by the school administration.

And that is a fair concern. I just didn't see (and still don't see) where he ignored it versus whether an investigation of the concerns was in progress. If he truly did ignore the complaints, then he wasn't doing his job and the resignation is legit.

[spleen1015]

What's Going On At The University Of Missouri? All Your Questions, AnsweredÂ* (http://deadspin.com/whats-going-on-at-the-university-of-missouri-all-your-1741447807)

This story does a good job in laying out what's going on, I think.

My take away from this whole situation is there's a lot of things that need to happen at Missouri. I don't think this is a problem the president of the university can solve on his own, but he gets all of the blame.

It is also a shame that the main stream media is going to present this such that president resigned because of the football team going on strike and that's not really what happened here. The football team is just the tip of the iceberg and our lemming filled country is too ignorant to understand.

[NobodyHere]

So with the changing of the guard will the racist acts by the douchebags on the Missouri campus be stopped?

[Subby]

So with the changing of the guard will the racist acts by the douchebags on the Missouri campus be stopped?
Are you really asking or are you just continuing your long standing history of being a useless idiot troll?

[BishopMVP]

What's Going On At The University Of Missouri? All Your Questions, AnsweredÂ* (http://deadspin.com/whats-going-on-at-the-university-of-missouri-all-your-1741447807)

This story does a good job in laying out what's going on, I think.

My take away from this whole situation is there's a lot of things that need to happen at Missouri. I don't think this is a problem the president of the university can solve on his own, but he gets all of the blame.

It is also a shame that the main stream media is going to present this such that president resigned because of the football team going on strike and that's not really what happened here. The football team is just the tip of the iceberg and our lemming filled country is too ignorant to understand.It isn't? Yes there was pressure building up from multiple fronts, but if the football team didn't take their stance there definitely wouldn't be national coverage or a thread here at FOFC. Whether the President would have resigned today without it I don't know, but I'm leaning no, and either way the football team was clearly the fulcrum, not the tip of the iceberg.

[Dutch]

@NH...heh...well, perhaps at least they will be investigated when they do occur is the goal...?

[Grover]

What's Going On At The University Of Missouri? All Your Questions, AnsweredÂ* (http://deadspin.com/whats-going-on-at-the-university-of-missouri-all-your-1741447807)

Good summary of everything going on there.

[NobodyHere]

Are you really asking or are you just continuing your long standing history of being a useless idiot troll?

both

[spleen1015]

It isn't? Yes there was pressure building up from multiple fronts, but if the football team didn't take their stance there definitely wouldn't be national coverage or a thread here at FOFC. Whether the President would have resigned today without it I don't know, but I'm leaning no, and either way the football team was clearly the fulcrum, not the tip of the iceberg.

It was going to happen eventually. I guess the football program tipped the scales earlier, but he was going to resign eventually.

[nol]

And that is a fair concern. I just didn't see (and still don't see) where he ignored it versus whether an investigation of the concerns was in progress. If he truly did ignore the complaints, then he wasn't doing his job and the resignation is legit.

Abe covered it pretty well on the first page as far as how a lack of a timely response to something as high-profile as the swastika (especially when coupled with prior complaints) implies that the president was either extremely apathetic or incompetent. Either of those things, despite having no bearing on whether he's actually a nice guy or means well or whatever, makes for a legitimate cause to want a different university president in place.

I do also find it ridiculous that an allegedly slow or insufficient reaction to a poop swastika was the straw that broke the camel's back. I know that Nazism is tied into white supremacism, but my first reaction to that would be to assume a complete idiot, quite probably either really drunk or with serious mental health issues, did something to provoke people, and if it was seriously targeting a single group that Jews would be the most likely answer (with black students and communists a distant 2nd). This isn't a burning cross or something that obviously is directed at black people/students.

Even in that case, it's still a clear indicator that there is someone on campus who is an absolute psycho and a threat to campus safety who should be addressed. This kind of response is what really drives home how ineffectual the "no the real problem is mental health" response is whenever a school shooting occurs. People don't just jump directly to making a shit swastika; they have clearly demonstrated several signs of being mentally unbalanced in the past. We live in a society where someone like the South Carolina shooter, who was going the whole nine yards and wearing Rhodesia jackets, was just considered "a slightly odd duck who really liked the South a lot" beforehand because *that* kind of behavior isn't that out of line compared to society at large.

[TroyF]

Abe covered it pretty well on the first page as far as how a lack of a timely response to something as high-profile as the swastika (especially when coupled with prior complaints) implies that the president was either extremely apathetic or incompetent. Either of those things, despite having no bearing on whether he's actually a nice guy or means well or whatever, makes for a legitimate cause to want a different university president in place.


He should be fired for the simple fact he lost the PR game. I don't say that flippantly either. You want to be a prez or CEO in this day and age, you had damned well better relate to the people you serve. He blew it big time in that regard.

He was dead man walking the second the football team got involved. As for the incidents I've read that caused this? I see very little reason to believe ANY of them will be solved with a new president. Better PR, a few programs that don't cost a ton but will look good for the university in their PR campaign, but not much else.

I hope I'm wrong.

[RainMaker]

Academia is a shit show.

Missouri Communications Professor Yelled for Muscle to Expel Media, Days After Begging for Coverage | The Big Lead (http://thebiglead.com/2015/11/09/missouri-communications-professor-yelled-for-muscle-to-expel-media-days-after-begging-for-coverage/)

[Drake]

Am I the only one who never ceases to be amused by photos of outraged college students?

(I work at a Big Ten institution, so I admit that I have a bias toward giggling -- especially where undergrad outrage is involved.)

[RainMaker]

It's probably always been that way. You know everything at 20 years old and you think the world revolves around you and your thoughts. Social media creates a narcissistic culture too. Being a victim is one of the easiest ways toward getting attention these days without requiring any real accomplishments.

Then again maybe this isn't a college only thing. I saw grown adults irate today that Starbucks isn't putting the words Christmas on some paper cups.

[Groundhog]

Right or wrong, given how much money football programs make some of these schools, it's hardly surprising that players would eventually figure out exactly how much leverage they have.

[Dutch]

Right or wrong, given how much money football programs make some of these schools, it's hardly surprising that players would eventually figure out exactly how much leverage they have.

Agreed and covered quite a bit already in this thread. If the athletes at these schools play their cards right, they will go into business for themselves and cut the schools out of the loop completely.

[Dutch]

There's no way due diligence on a CC campus for something easy like vandalism and a bias incident on top of that takes that long Most colleges have bias teams that respond extremely quickly to incidents, and with very high ups on it - it's a university standard.
Plus it's long on the research end. We had some unfortunate vandalism in my residence hall over Halloween weekend. On Monday morning, I reviewed the tapes, printed out the suspects, asked around until I found out who it was, documented it, and then sent out an e-mail to my building letting then know what had happened, and how we had found those responsible. On Monday. The first work day back. It's highly unlikely that a high profile bias-case takes longer.

What did the president of the university say about it?

Abe covered it pretty well on the first page.

He started to, but when I asked a question he disappeared. I'd start a hunger-strike for not getting an answer to my question but that would just be melodramatic.

[bob]

Academia is a shit show.

Missouri Communications Professor Yelled for Muscle to Expel Media, Days After Begging for Coverage | The Big Lead (http://thebiglead.com/2015/11/09/missouri-communications-professor-yelled-for-muscle-to-expel-media-days-after-begging-for-coverage/)

While watching this, all i could think of was the Safe Space episode of South Park. Where is Reality?

[CraigSca]

Then again maybe this isn't a college only thing. I saw grown adults irate today that Starbucks isn't putting the words Christmas on some paper cups.

Yeah. As a Christian this is ridiculous and embarrassing.

[CraigSca]

Agreed and covered quite a bit already in this thread. If the athletes at these schools play their cards right, they will go into business for themselves and cut the schools out of the loop completely.

How do you mean? It's an interesting question, because frankly, if the athletes weren't tied to an institution, I couldn't care less about how they perform.

While football is fairly entertaining without a vested interest, it's only when I'm rooting for my favorite team to win do I really care.

[Dutch]

How do you mean? It's an interesting question, because frankly, if the athletes weren't tied to an institution, I couldn't care less about how they perform.

While football is fairly entertaining without a vested interest, it's only when I'm rooting for my favorite team to win do I really care.

This is just the beginning of the non-paid Athlete dilemma. Once it becomes a "rich old white people vs poor young black people" debate, it's over anyway...that's a mobilizer.

So, the best solution, since I agree that the schools aren't using this sports money to advance us intellectually as a nation, is for the athletes to do what they are intended to do....score touchdowns, dunk basketballs, get hat-tricks, and hit homeruns. You don't need a degree in biology or whatever to be a professional athlete. The athletes themselves are saying that the degree is worthless and that what they really want is to get paid. That the risks of doing "pro bono" work for the universities is unfair.

So set up youth/development pro teams that feed into the NFL. The draft can be set up to work straight out of high school.

Then, the university systems can focus on....education.

Now that the players have proven that they have all the power, the marriage between the student and the athlete is only going to go downhill from here.

I'm probably 10 or 20 years ahead of this actually taking place, and this isn't definite, but I think this is a possible and a fairly plausible result of the first successful student-athlete rebellion.

University sports won't need to go away, it'll just all be more like Ivy League sports where nobody gives a shit and nobody watches and nobody cares if anybody gets hurt...or paid.

The UM athletes have discovered "the art of the possible"...it's impossible to turn that imagination off now.

[Dutch]

Or maybe the NFL draft just goes away and when the young athletes reach 4 years of experience they enter the NFL auction. The 1.1 team can offer a preset salary to Player X and they can either agree or disagree to accept...if they disagree, the 1.1 team moves on to Player Y and offers the same deal....could be a lot of fun.

[CraigSca]

Wow - so how does the NCAA and the institutions give up all that money? And how does ESPN give up all that advertising $$$?

Again, I don't care to watch minor league football. To me, it's like a money balloon popping if the college game were to cease as we know it.

[albionmoonlight]

Wow - so how does the NCAA and the institutions give up all that money? And how does ESPN give up all that advertising $$$

I think Dutch's point is that it may not be totally within the NCAA's control. That if players realize they can get their demands met by simply threatening to not play, then a lot of the NCAA control goes away.

And ESPN will be fine. Whatever sports becomes, they will make $$ by showing it.

[ISiddiqui]

The institutions, on the other hand, still have plenty of power. And they may actually use the player power to get out from under the NCAA and form their own power division only consisting of the Big 5 conferences where a lot more money flows to the institutions and the players themselves.

[panerd]

The institutions, on the other hand, still have plenty of power. And they may actually use the player power to get out from under the NCAA and form their own power division only consisting of the Big 5 conferences where a lot more money flows to the institutions and the players themselves.

Plus for every Leonard Fournette a team like LSU also has a lot of players that will not go on to the NFL or other professional football leagues. Are they willing to play the chess game for compensation of $5-10K and potentially lose a much more valuable scholarship if it backfires? We always like to say its not about education but I would think for at least 75% (if not more) that is the best thing they will get out of playing college football. What is the average number of NFL players on any college team including powerhouses like 3 or 4?

[molson]

Universities don't have to pay themselves, they could open the door up to booster benefits, commercial endorsements, and outside employment.

[JPhillips]

Players have collective power, but it's damned hard to keep that power organized. The thought of a mass movement through college athletics is almost inconceivable to me.

[bob]

... since I agree that the schools aren't using this sports money to advance us intellectually as a nation...

Question since I don't know this for sure - aren't most universities' athletic departments separate entities that don't share money with the actual university accounts? Or at least don't share funds outwardly?

[bob]

I suspect without the collegiate tie in, minor league football and basketball would do poorly. College football works despite the constant revolving door of players due to the traditions, alumni, and history that goes along with it.

Honestly, these days, without the NCAA tournament, college basketball already has fairly bad ratings.

[CraigSca]

I think Dutch's point is that it may not be totally within the NCAA's control. That if players realize they can get their demands met by simply threatening to not play, then a lot of the NCAA control goes away.

And ESPN will be fine. Whatever sports becomes, they will make $$ by showing it.

But without school tie-in, who would care?

[albionmoonlight]

But without school tie-in, who would care?

I'm not saying the future of $$ sports will be amateur football. I really have no idea, but it would not shock me if, for instance, the growing Hispanic population in America, along with easier access to international television, along with football's concussion problem, makes soccer overtake amateur football as a place for monetized eyeballs in 20 years.

[bob]

Probably the wrong place to post this, but soccer isn't free of the concussion concerns...

U.S. Soccer Bans Headers For Players Under 11 To Resolve Concussion Lawsuit (http://screamer.deadspin.com/u-s-soccer-bans-headers-for-players-under-11-to-resolv-1741635694)

[JPhillips]

Question since I don't know this for sure - aren't most universities' athletic departments separate entities that don't share money with the actual university accounts? Or at least don't share funds outwardly?

Only a very few survive without subsidies from tuition or student fees. There's a USAToday database that tracks the amount of subsidies for all D1 schools.

[Dutch]

I think Dutch's point is that it may not be totally within the NCAA's control. That if players realize they can get their demands met by simply threatening to not play, then a lot of the NCAA control goes away.

And ESPN will be fine. Whatever sports becomes, they will make $$ by showing it.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Dutch]

I'm not saying the future of $$ sports will be amateur football. I really have no idea, but it would not shock me if, for instance, the growing Hispanic population in America, along with easier access to international television, along with football's concussion problem, makes soccer overtake amateur football as a place for monetized eyeballs in 20 years.

Goodness, I didn't think of that. But yes, we could be talking about a repeat of the CART/IRL (open-wheel race cars) split that destroys the sport and NASCAR (stock cars) takes over that market share entirely.

[albionmoonlight]

Probably the wrong place to post this, but soccer isn't free of the concussion concerns...

U.S. Soccer Bans Headers For Players Under 11 To Resolve Concussion Lawsuit (http://screamer.deadspin.com/u-s-soccer-bans-headers-for-players-under-11-to-resolv-1741635694)

Heh.

The stages of evolution:

Stage 1: Develop enough cultural sophistication that your species derives pleasure from games in which people repeatedly bash their skulls into things.

Stage 2: Decide to stop bashing your skulls into things.

Stage 3: Colonize Mars.

[bob]

Only a very few survive without subsidies from tuition or student fees. There's a USAToday database that tracks the amount of subsidies for all D1 schools.

So I would be correct in saying no athletic money is flowing back into academics (ignore donations that may not occur if athletics didn't keep alumni invested in their university), right?

[JPhillips]

I can't answer that definitively, but if it's happening at all it certainly isn't common.

[Dutch]

I've only heard a lot of insinuation that the sports departments keep everything. Wouldn't it be a fantastic inclusion and sense of purpose for athletes to here something like, "The University of Texas Football program raised enough money to offer 250 new scholarships and had enough leftover to build a new wing of the Science Department for additional R&D Laboratories."?

I dont think that is what actually happens with that money though. More like new gym equipment and even more expensive coaching staffs.

But I admit, I'm talking out of my ass on that one...I went to night school....

[molson]

Only a very few survive without subsidies from tuition or student fees. There's a USAToday database that tracks the amount of subsidies for all D1 schools.

They'd survive. A few might have to cut down a smidgen on expenses. But subsidies aren't a huge part of schools' revenue.

Take South Carolina. They take in $98 million in revenue. They have $92 million in expenses. They get $5 million in subsidies. I think they could "survive" on $98 million even if they had to cut the budget by 5%. Maybe the next coach wouldn't have to make $4+ million a year.

NCAA | Finances | USA TODAY Sports (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/)

There is a ton of money coming into these schools from TV rights and licensing. I'm not quite sure where all of it goes, or what the minimum level they need to survive is, but I think they'll be all right.

Edit: Maybe you're talking about the lower-level non-BCS schools. I'm not sure why Memphis needs $50 million to run a football program, but I suspect whatever they're given, they're happy to spend.

[JPhillips]

They'd survive. A few might have to cut down a smidgen on expenses. But subsidies aren't a huge part of schools' revenue.

Take South Carolina. They take in $98 million in revenue. They have $92 million in expenses. They get $5 million in subsidies. I think they could "survive" on $98 million even if they had to cut the budget by 5%. Maybe the next coach wouldn't have to make $4+ million a year.

NCAA | Finances | USA TODAY Sports (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/)

There is a ton of money coming into these schools from TV rights and licensing. I'm not quite sure where all of it goes, or what the minimum level they need to survive is, but I think they'll be all right.

Sure. I was only saying that as it stands few of them are independent of subsidies.

[Logan]

So I would be correct in saying no athletic money is flowing back into academics (ignore donations that may not occur if athletics didn't keep alumni invested in their university), right?

The big money football and basketball teams take the revenues that come in, and fund football/basketball facilities, coaching staffs, recruiting budgets, player amenities, and then fund non-revenue sports pretty much in that order. A lot of schools have 20+ non-revenue athletic programs that don't even come close to covering expenses.

[CraigSca]

The big money football and basketball teams take the revenues that come in, and fund football/basketball facilities, coaching staffs, recruiting budgets, player amenities, and then fund non-revenue sports pretty much in that order. A lot of schools have 20+ non-revenue athletic programs that don't even come close to covering expenses.

Right, and the majority of that money comes from TV $$$ (as well as donors funding athletics). While the players are the product, the only reason they are a product is because they're tied to their institution. Without the institutional tie-in, no one would give a flying.

Wasn't there a barnstorming tour during the baseball strike, or an attempt to do so? No one cared. Seriously, strip away the city tie-in in any sport and I don't think anyone would care anymore.

[wustin]

Chancellor resigned too iirc.

I wonder if the school will assign a non-white puppet as the interim president just to appease the students.

[digamma]

Also, in the grand scheme of things, the athletics budget is pretty small compared to the overall university budget. For example, Minnesota has a top 25 athletic program in terms of revenue. They have made a small profit in the athletic department the last two years. The athletics budget is about 2% of the overall university budget. Most university revenue comes from tuition (the athletic department reimburses athletic scholarships) and grants.

The other thing I'd say is that it is my opinion that the underlying cause matters. This may have been a perfect storm. I'm as fascinated as anyone to see what happens now, but we've seen a couple of instances where athletes have tried to organize around issues that affect only them (I'm thinking of All Players United and the Northwestern unionization effort) and they both failed pretty miserably. You have to get buy in from the outside. I think that either comes from it being a broader social issue or a domino toppling at a rival school (Auburn wants to beat Alabama regardless of whether the athletes are fast or slow or white, black or purple). It will be interesting to see if the latter happens.

[NobodyHere]

You stay classy Missouri students

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xRlRAyulN4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Dutch]

That's some 1950's shit right there.

[TroyF]

As someone with a journalism background, this makes my stomach turn. To call it sickening would be an understatement. Free speech means you can state your opinion. It does not mean you can silence others opinions and it damned well does not mean you can prevent the press from covering a public event.

I'm a hell of a lot more leniant than these people are. Were I in charge, I would not demand her resignation. I would demand that she speak up and admit how horribly illegal and wrong her actions were.

What a trainwreck.

[CU Tiger]

There are 3 University employees in the video. 2 professors, including the lady calling for muscle at the end.

[Logan]

Right, and the majority of that money comes from TV $$$ (as well as donors funding athletics). While the players are the product, the only reason they are a product is because they're tied to their institution. Without the institutional tie-in, no one would give a flying.

Wasn't there a barnstorming tour during the baseball strike, or an attempt to do so? No one cared. Seriously, strip away the city tie-in in any sport and I don't think anyone would care anymore.

I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I would also have to agree that it plays a major part and a true minor league system would never be as successful. The question though is, how close could it be initially and over what time frame could it potentially grow? The problem with equating it to the baseball minor league system is that the levels are so diverse and the players move between them so frequently, you really don't get the same effect as you likely could in football if you had the players sticking with the same local minor league team for a few years.

[BishopMVP]

As for athletes breaking off to start a minor league, I'm not sure why everyone treats it as a mutually exclusive proposition. Hockey (and I guess Soccer and even basketball to a slight extent) show you can simultaneously have some kids getting paid and some who choose to go the college route. I think basketball, whether it grows upwards from the AAU programs (god I hope not), or comes from the D-League lowering its age minimum, will be the first step well before football. The amount of infrastructure required to start a football league without the NFL's support is just way too much for it to be viable at this time.Abe covered it pretty well on the first page as far as how a lack of a timely response to something as high-profile as the swastika (especially when coupled with prior complaints) implies that the president was either extremely apathetic or incompetent. Either of those things, despite having no bearing on whether he's actually a nice guy or means well or whatever, makes for a legitimate cause to want a different university president in place.



Even in that case, it's still a clear indicator that there is someone on campus who is an absolute psycho and a threat to campus safety who should be addressed. This kind of response is what really drives home how ineffectual the "no the real problem is mental health" response is whenever a school shooting occurs. People don't just jump directly to making a shit swastika; they have clearly demonstrated several signs of being mentally unbalanced in the past. We live in a society where someone like the South Carolina shooter, who was going the whole nine yards and wearing Rhodesia jackets, was just considered "a slightly odd duck who really liked the South a lot" beforehand because *that* kind of behavior isn't that out of line compared to society at large.This is where I'd actually need to do more reading than I want to. A) what action was taken? I assume they found the perpetrator and kicked them out of campus housing at the least, if not the university. I'm sure Abe can say more, but especially if it was a mental health issue you start getting into privacy rules about what you can publicly say about it. And same as Dutch, my question B) is is a statement from the President necessary? At UMass, kids got kicked out of housing by their dorms RD and Campus Housing - I can't recall ever hearing the President getting involved.

I can agree the President was incredibly tone deaf, and a college campus should be a leader in fighting racism around town, but I haven't seen evidence the swastika was even tied in to black people. And if action was taken behind the scenes, but just not announced, I am kind of on his side. It certainly didn't appear from their list of demands, tactics, or the video of them harassing a student photographer up thread that they were interested in a dialogue or getting all the facts out there. So I'm glad these stunts brought an issue to greater awareness, but I'm not sure FIRE THE PRESIDENT was the answer over work with the President.
While watching this, all i could think of was the Safe Space episode of South Park. Where is Reality?Protestors literally had signs saying Safe Space up... I don't know if any of them are in on the joke, but it wouldn't shock me if there was some pranksters doing that at the start, then the idiot protestor fringe latched on to it. I guess that ginger professor at the end was a UMass grad student during some of my undergrad years, wouldn't surprise me if she was one of our 3-8 idiot serial protestors at that time.

[RainMaker]

You stay classy Missouri students

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xRlRAyulN4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Shouldn't all the state employees who infringed on the constitutional rights of that guy be fired? I mean your school is known for journalism for christ sake.

[RainMaker]

Universities don't have to pay themselves, they could open the door up to booster benefits, commercial endorsements, and outside employment.

This makes the most sense and I have no idea why it doesn't take place already. Doesn't cost the schools a dime.

Also, athletic departments survived just fine without monster TV contracts back in the day. Lower levels of college sports (D2, D3) are able to maintain an athletic department with little to no revenue.

And if you're going to limit what the athletes can make, you should do the same for the coaching staff. Pay them what a professor would make.

[BishopMVP]

Shouldn't all the state employees who infringed on the constitutional rights of that guy be fired? I mean your school is known for journalism for christ sake.Even worse, I guess she was part of the J-school too. Twitter (https://mobile.twitter.com/jerharlanCNN/status/664261490032164868)

And if you're going to limit what the athletes can make, you should do the same for the coaching staff. Pay them what a professor would make.The guy was a complete asshole, but I loved Jim Calhoun's response when his salary was questioned. Jim Calhoun Freaks Out on A Reporter Bill O'Reilly Style! (2/21/09) - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJkQTzbVEq4)

Same reason you can't ever have a definitive answer on what college athletics are worth, because its not just gate receipts and TV contracts it's also branding and name recognition. Without football, Notre Dame is Wabash or Oberlin. UMass is the flagship state university, and we get some nice little pub when a professor wins a Nobel Prize or a graduate like Jack Welch gets some recognition. Yet it was when Calipari was there that the state legislature was fully funding it and pouring money into campus construction. If he would take $20 million to come back that would still be a net gain for us.

[RainMaker]

Without good football players Notre Dame is Wabash and Oberlin too. The same argument you're making for Calipari getting $20 million to come back is the same argument to pay the best high school prospects in the country to come to your school.

[Atocep]

This makes the most sense and I have no idea why it doesn't take place already. Doesn't cost the schools a dime.


So the athlete's scholarship becomes taxable income then?

Every time this discussion comes up the ideas thrown around are trying to create a system that's there to take care of the less than 2% of athletes with professional futures. You do realize the vast majority of athletes are there to utilize their scholarship to get an education? There's a very small number of athletes that break the system and cause problems. Reinventing the wheel to take care of them doesn't make sense.

Athletes get a scholarship, professional instruction and training, and marketing from their university. Tim Tebow isn't a 1st round pick if he plays at UCF instead of UF. Todd Gurley certainly isn't a 1st round pick coming off an ACL injury if he played at Georgia Southern instead of UGA.

There are better ways to help ALL athletes rather than making sure the very top athletes have money in the pockets. Instead of talking about ways to make these players rich before they leave college the discussion should be about better healthcare/benefits for players that have health issues after finishing school.

[RainMaker]

I'm not talking about athletic scholarships. Nothing would change in that regard at all. I'm saying that players should be able to earn income on their own like every other adult on this planet. I had an academic scholarship when I went to school and was allowed to work wherever I wanted for whatever I could make.

[Logan]

Every time this discussion comes up the ideas thrown around are trying to create a system that's there to take care of the less than 2% of athletes with professional futures. You do realize the vast majority of athletes are there to utilize their scholarship to get an education? There's a very small number of athletes that break the system and cause problems. Reinventing the wheel to take care of them doesn't make sense.

College football programs will pull in more than $3.5 billion in revenues this year. That's not because only 2% of players have professional futures. And I disagree on a "vast majority" being there to utilize scholarships for education unless we're talking all athletes across sports, and I doubt it's anything close to a vast majority if we're just talking P5 football schools and/or major college basketball. Do a good portion put in the work necessary and plan on utilizing their education at some point? Sure. But damn near every P5 recruit thinks he's good enough to play in the NFL and that is their primary motivation.

[Atocep]

College football programs will pull in more than $3.5 billion in revenues this year. That's not because only 2% of players have professional futures. And I disagree on a "vast majority" being there to utilize scholarships for education unless we're talking all athletes across sports, and I doubt it's anything close to a vast majority if we're just talking P5 football schools and/or major college basketball. Do a good portion put in the work necessary and plan on utilizing their education at some point? Sure. But damn near every P5 recruit thinks he's good enough to play in the NFL and that is their primary motivation.

There are sports other than football and basketball. They may not be revenue generating, but I don't see how something that's put in place to pay football and basketball players wouldn't have to cover all athletes, both men and women.

Yes, the vast majority of scholarship athletes covering all D-1 schools are primarily there for an education.


I'm not talking about athletic scholarships. Nothing would change in that regard at all. I'm saying that players should be able to earn income on their own like every other adult on this planet. I had an academic scholarship when I went to school and was allowed to work wherever I wanted for whatever I could make.

When you're talking booster benefits you're potentially crossing over into university employee.

Athletes don't have it easy with the hours they're putting in, but they do have access to money to make things a bit easier. Cost of Attendance will be starting soon and that's $2-$5 thousand a year depending on the school, off campus room and board is covered, The Special Assistance Fund can cover plane tickets over holidays, the Student Athlete Opportunity Fund is a pool of money provided by the NCAA to cover a large number of needs, and a large number of athletes qualify for Pell Grants like any other student.

[Logan]

There are sports other than football and basketball. They may not be revenue generating, but I don't see how something that's put in place to pay football and basketball players wouldn't have to cover all athletes, both men and women.

Yes, the vast majority of scholarship athletes covering all D-1 schools are primarily there for an education.

Well yeah, that's the problem. If you're only willing to put everyone in one bucket, you're not going to fix anything.

[BishopMVP]

There are sports other than football and basketball. They may not be revenue generating, but I don't see how something that's put in place to pay football and basketball players wouldn't have to cover all athletes, both men and women. Hahaha, I hadn't even thought of that angle. If a school attempts to pay football players would they also have to pay an equal number of female crew, track, and swimming athletes to satisfy Title IX? Or would a school finally have the balls to argue that Title IX was amazing, and is probably still necessary, but football should absolutely be exempted from it.

[Breeze]

Hahaha, I hadn't even thought of that angle. If a school attempts to pay football players would they also have to pay an equal number of female crew, track, and swimming athletes to satisfy Title IX? Or would a school finally have the balls to argue that Title IX was amazing, and is probably still necessary, but football should absolutely be exempted from it.

Schools won't be able to get away from Title IX...they will be forced to match dollar for dollar what is given out to men for the female athletes. Moreover, they will likely be required to provide the same monitary benefit to non-revenue sport athletes that they offer football and basketball players.

Ultimately, this will lead to more of what we saw when title IX first went into effect - colleges will cancel many non-revenue sports. In fact, we are already starting to see it...you may not be aware but due to my kids I'm very involved in the swim world, and I can tell you that several schools have recently dropped their swim programs. Swimming is a pretty large team for a non-revenue sport and it can be an expensive sport as well (especially if the team's competition pool is maintainted by the university and not the county/city government). Schools have basically admitted they aren't willing to pay for that sport, and behind the scenes they have told club coaches that they fear the additional costs of these benefits times the number of swimmers on the team.

In fact, club coaches are really pushing USA Swimming and other organizations to urge unversities not to drop swim teams as a result of the increased funds that will be required for football and basketball.

[BishopMVP]

Schools won't be able to get away from Title IX...they will be forced to match dollar for dollar what is given out to men for the female athletes. I coach boys lacrosse, so I'm well aware of the deleterious effects of Title IX on male non-revenue sports, although in our case it's that D1 growth severely lagged behind HS/youth growth rather than cutting existing programs like baseball, wrestling, I guess swimming now too. (And fwiw, if you're talking about pool costs etc that's not a Title IX issue, because the pool would presumably cost just as much to maintain whether you had just a women's team or both, and having a women's swim team is a big offset that helps Title IX numbers. The problems brought on by paying every scholarship athlete a stipend and Title IX are separate issues, although often conflated, even by the administrators when it provides effective cover for what are really cost-cutting measures. A.k.a. if they cut just Men's swimming, that's on Title IX, but if they cut both Men's and Women's Swimming that's on the university.)

The thing is if you actually read Title IX it never sets quotas like people assume, it just talks about providing equal opportunities to those who want them. Any survey ever done on college campuses shows that more males than females want to play a college sport, so I think a judge would buy the idea that there can be a 55/45 or 60/40 split, but no one has the balls to argue it. Just have to wait until there's a radical masculinist wing of protestors I guess. (and the way protest culture is trending it wouldn't shock me if they started popping up sooner or later. :) )

[Breeze]

(And fwiw, if you're talking about pool costs etc that's not a Title IX issue...)


Sorry, didn't mean to imply the cost of the pool was a Title IX issue, just that it is another significant expense when fielding a swim team, and the budget for a swim team would only further increase with the new benefits. Because of the overall costs of having a team it becomes an easy target when trying to eliminate expenses.

Also, you are probably right in that many schools will only drop the men's team. They will need the women's team to help balance the football scholarships.

[BishopMVP]

So the news from UM today involves the student body president spreading false rumors about the KKK being on campus, the typical 4chan nutjobs coming in and posting threats (and being arrested), and what seems like a pretty respected professor resigning when people were mad he wouldn't cancel class because there were no credible threats, and canceling it would let the bullies win.

Oh, and the poop swastika possibly never happened, because the only evidence anyone has tried to produce so far is a photo posted to reddit a year ago. Again it shouldn't detract from the larger issues, but like I said initially that never made sense and seemed a really weird issue to be going after the President for.

(Also the hunger strike kid's father is a multi-millionaire, but that should be irrelevant. Unlike the idiot at Yale screaming WHO HIRED YOU at the professor where it turns out she was on the search committee. That one's hilarious, or would be if it weren't so tragic.)Sorry, didn't mean to imply the cost of the pool was a Title IX issue, just that it is another significant expense when fielding a swim team, and the budget for a swim team would only further increase with the new benefits. Because of the overall costs of having a team it becomes an easy target when trying to eliminate expenses.

Also, you are probably right in that many schools will only drop the men's team. They will need the women's team to help balance the football scholarships.Yeah, I've just had this argument a whole lot before :) Fwiw, in the end the answer ended up being that wealthy alums or parents literally donated enough to start up programs, and now it's spread to endowing programs as a whole. As much as I hate the stereotypes it brings, being a sport played by a lot of wealthy elitists does have its benefits.

[CU Tiger]

I'm not talking about athletic scholarships. Nothing would change in that regard at all. I'm saying that players should be able to earn income on their own like every other adult on this planet. I had an academic scholarship when I went to school and was allowed to work wherever I wanted for whatever I could make.

Athletes are allowed to work as well. Now finding time probably isnt easy but there is no rule preventing a college athlete from being gainfully employed so long as his pay is not bolstered by his athletic status.

[wustin]

So the news from UM today involves the student body president spreading false rumors about the KKK being on campus, the typical 4chan nutjobs coming in and posting threats (and being arrested), and what seems like a pretty respected professor resigning when people were mad he wouldn't cancel class because there were no credible threats, and canceling it would let the bullies win.


Pretty sure he resigned because he was disgusted of the administration and the students. Mizzou is a sinking ship at this point.

I really find it hilarious how ironic all this protest is happening against the faculty. Remember The New Left from the 1960s? This is like The New New Left. It's come full circle and I wonder if this is gonna happen again in another half century.

Edit: The professor who resigned.

<a href="http://i.imgur.com/CEhLwSk.png"><img style="max-width:368px; max-height; 465px;" src="http://i.imgur.com/CEhLwSk.png" alt="Image" /></a>

[Solecismic]

I'm trying to have sympathy for the faculty at Missouri and Yale, but I just can't.

They brought this on completely on their own. This is the world they wanted, and now they have it.

I'll add that in many universities, faculty is trying very hard to reduce administrative bloat, which leads to higher tuition and this kind of environment. But administration tends to feed upon itself and once bloated, there's really no stopping it.

[Abe Sargent]

Here's me!


http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=781110

[BishopMVP]

Here's me!


Abe Sargent at Eastern Michigan University - RateMyProfessors.com (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=781110)Love the 2.9 for easiness. PS "Don't sleep in this class. Thats all I gotta say." Well now I'm intrigued!

[NobodyHere]

Here's me!


Abe Sargent at Eastern Michigan University - RateMyProfessors.com (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=781110)

So how much do professors care about sites like that?

I'll admit that as a student they do have some influence on what classes I take.

[Dutch]

Wow, was the whole thing a sham???

Is the entire Mizzou Protest Based on Lies? | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/is-the-entire-mizzou-protest-based-on-lies-111115)

[JPhillips]

So how much do professors care about sites like that?

I'll admit that as a student they do have some influence on what classes I take.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I pay no attention to rating sites. The sample size is so small that it makes the data useless. Only a handful of people that love you or hate you will be motivated enough to fill out one of those surveys.

[muns]

I'm trying to have sympathy for the faculty at Missouri and Yale, but I just can't.

They brought this on completely on their own. This is the world they wanted, and now they have it.

I'll add that in many universities, faculty is trying very hard to reduce administrative bloat, which leads to higher tuition and this kind of environment. But administration tends to feed upon itself and once bloated, there's really no stopping it.

Ill add this side of the coin since I am apart of the administrative side of a University now. Faculty think that the University is all about academics and things run around their classes, when in fact students spend much less than half of their time doing classes and academic things (things faculty don't want to hear or help out with). When you have students showing up with more and more problems (I.E. mental health, behavioral issues) that bloat is needed because its a lawsuit waiting to happen when issues go unchecked.

[Abe Sargent]

So how much do professors care about sites like that?

I'll admit that as a student they do have some influence on what classes I take.

If they are going for tenure? A massive amount

[JPhillips]

Wow, was the whole thing a sham???

Is the entire Mizzou Protest Based on Lies? | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/is-the-entire-mizzou-protest-based-on-lies-111115)

I love columnists that complain about the lack of reporting on a subject.

What's stopping you, champ!

[wustin]

Wow, was the whole thing a sham???

Is the entire Mizzou Protest Based on Lies? | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/is-the-entire-mizzou-protest-based-on-lies-111115)

I don't know about sham, but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence.

There are probably instances of these incidents occurring on campus every day or week perhaps but they never get reported immediately and I'm sure most people would agree one is too many. But life is not fair and it's not gonna be fair and this whole fiasco did not need to be taken this far.

[RainMaker]

Athletes are allowed to work as well. Now finding time probably isnt easy but there is no rule preventing a college athlete from being gainfully employed so long as his pay is not bolstered by his athletic status.

Why does it matter if his pay is bolstered by his athletic status? That's like telling a student applying for a job that he can't mention he's majoring in Biology and has a 3.8 GPA.

I guess I don't understand why you would care what private agreement a college student enters into with another private party?

[RainMaker]

Wow, was the whole thing a sham???

Is the entire Mizzou Protest Based on Lies? | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/is-the-entire-mizzou-protest-based-on-lies-111115)

Some of it seems to be based on lies. Some of it seems legit. I still don't know what the expectation was of the President.

Take the poop swastika. First, there is no proof it was some racist taunt. It's more likely to be some drunken prank by an idiot college kid. Is the President supposed to take DNA samples from everyone on campus to sort this crime out? What was the expectation here and how many resources were expected to be used on this? And some of the other complaints come from proven liars.

I kept waiting for the big story to break about systemic racism at the school. I still can't figure out what the issue is. Seems more like some opportunistic people are pushing an agenda to gain social justice fame. I can't blame them I guess since activism is big business these days. But for everyone else at Missouri, congrats on making your school look like a joke.

[Logan]

Why does it matter if his pay is bolstered by his athletic status? That's like telling a student applying for a job that he can't mention he's majoring in Biology and has a 3.8 GPA.

I guess I don't understand why you would care what private agreement a college student enters into with another private party?

I don't think anyone would care until the player is ruled ineligible for those extra benefits. So change the rules.

[lighthousekeeper]

I can't blame them I guess since activism is big business these days.

How is activism big business these days? I'd like to know how I can get a piece of the pie.

[NobodyHere]

How is activism big business these days? I'd like to know how I can get a piece of the pie.

I need to create some sort of activism app

[RainMaker]

How is activism big business these days? I'd like to know how I can get a piece of the pie.

Tons of sites and media organizations you can write for. Activism is huge for bringing in clicks. You can get hired at Think Tanks and Policy Centers. Charge big bucks for speaking gigs. Write some books. And even get hired for a cushy job at a University.

Activism has turned into a form of entertainment for people. There are smart people at the top who have figured this out and are cashing in.

[Kodos]

This is why we need a more socialist President. Curse you, capitalism!

[NobodyHere]

I love columnists that complain about the lack of reporting on a subject.

What's stopping you, champ!

Well at Mizzou it would be the student body and some low-life professors.

[spleen1015]

I have no doubt there is some kind of racism at Missouri. I'm sure there is racism pretty much every where, knowing the world as I do.

Do you guys think there is more racism at Missouri than there is at other colleges or is this just a case where a few people spoke up, the football team got involved and now there is national attention?

[King of New York]

I have no doubt there is some kind of racism at Missouri. I'm sure there is racism pretty much every where, knowing the world as I do.

Do you guys think there is more racism at Missouri than there is at other colleges or is this just a case where a few people spoke up, the football team got involved and now there is national attention?

I doubt that there's substantially more racism at Missouri than elsewhere. Because it's a big school whose size lends itself to a certain amount of student anonymity, and because of its geographical location, expressions of racism might be a bit more frequent and overt than elsewhere. But other schools (including elite Acela Corridor schools) experience incidents similar to what happened or appears to have happened at Missouri.

The difference is that Missouri's president responded slowly and then condescendingly, and the football team got involved. Without the football team's involvement, I doubt that this story goes national.

Both sides now seem to be in a race to hand the moral high ground to the other.

[nol]

It is interesting to note that college students apparently face a higher burden of proof when it comes to claiming that they felt legitimately threatened than do policemen who have presumably received some training in threat assessment.

[panerd]

Mizzou going with the all white uniforms this weekend. Never seen his combination in 30 years of watching Mizzou football.

http://garypinkel.com/mizzou-football-to-continue-tradition-of-special-uniforms-at-arrowhead/

[BishopMVP]

I guess I don't understand why you would care what private agreement a college student enters into with another private party?Why does the NFL/NBA/MLB restrict private agreements their players make outside of their contracts? Because they're on the owners (schools) side and trying to prevent an arms race that costs all schools more money. (Trying, not succeeding.) What is the 85 scholarship limit except a salary cap?

[RainMaker]

Why does the NFL/NBA/MLB restrict private agreements their players make outside of their contracts? Because they're on the owners (schools) side and trying to prevent an arms race that costs all schools more money. (Trying, not succeeding.) What is the 85 scholarship limit except a salary cap?

They don't. Players are free to sign endorsement deals for as much money as they want. They can sign autographs for money. They can start businesses or simply work for one.

I'm not talking about the schools paying anything. I'm talking 3rd parties such as a shoe company, memorabilia company, or the local car dealership.

[Butter]

Mizzou going with the all white uniforms this weekend. Never seen his combination in 30 years of watching Mizzou football.

Mizzou Football To Continue Tradition of Special Uniforms at Arrowhead (http://garypinkel.com/mizzou-football-to-continue-tradition-of-special-uniforms-at-arrowhead/)

LOLZ.

[BishopMVP]

They don't. Players are free to sign endorsement deals for as much money as they want. They can sign autographs for money. They can start businesses or simply work for one.

I'm not talking about the schools paying anything. I'm talking 3rd parties such as a shoe company, memorabilia company, or the local car dealership.No, they're limited in who can pay them. Much greater leeway, but in the end pro sports leagues still puts limits on the benefits the direct organization can pay them (owners can't pay players outside the salary cap), and who they can sign for (I think - maybe it's just strongly discouraged and not official policy that players can't advertise for certain businesses.)

Edit - And I agree with you on your real point, that the NCAA is an employer and the current system screws (the top) athletes. But sticking just to your semi-rhetorical question it is standard practice for an employer to regulate employees actions even when not at the workplace.

[wustin]

This is getting ridiculous now, I don't know where to put this.

University of Minnesota Rejects 9/11 Remembrance Because it Might Incite Racism - Christine Rousselle (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/christinerousselle/2015/11/12/university-of-minnesota-rejects-911-remembrance-because-it-might-incite-racism-n2079788)

[CU Tiger]

Why does it matter if his pay is bolstered by his athletic status? That's like telling a student applying for a job that he can't mention he's majoring in Biology and has a 3.8 GPA.

I guess I don't understand why you would care what private agreement a college student enters into with another private party?

I think on the surface no one would car about Bobs autos paying a couple grand to the local college star. But what about when Nike opens the checkbook and drops 1,000,000 each on the top 85.

How do you allow one without the other?

And if you don't care about the sconbd scenario, understand you are taking d1 down to 4 teams. 5 max.

[Dutch]

This is getting ridiculous now, I don't know where to put this.

University of Minnesota Rejects 9/11 Remembrance Because it Might Incite Racism - Christine Rousselle (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/christinerousselle/2015/11/12/university-of-minnesota-rejects-911-remembrance-because-it-might-incite-racism-n2079788)

No, it might incite unity.

[muns]

It is interesting to note that college students apparently face a higher burden of proof when it comes to claiming that they felt legitimately threatened than do policemen who have presumably received some training in threat assessment.

I think its because we all say college students are adults, but in the back of our mind we think there is a tweener stage. Honestly, everybody here would be surprised at how many parents I talk to about everything and their mother. I just got a complaint from a parent yesterday that we moved a student into another students room and how dare we "interrupt her daughters studies and make her move things around the room". I wanted to tell get to get the fuck out of here and stop wasting my time, but the amount of bull shit college students throw around on a daily basis is mind blowing. Stuff we would have had to deal with in school on our own, is now being taken up by parents and other family members.


Nol what is your take on this? Mizzou seems like an interesting case study. You have Michael Sam who seems to have been supported by all at Mizzou, Then this year you also have the student body president who is also gay and black. Then you have the hunger striker who has spent 8 years there and still going. On the surface, it seems legitimate to question what is going on down there, because those 3 examples don't scream the campus is racist and there is a culture that is racist. You aren't going to spend 8 years on that campus if you feel that way and keep coming back if you deal with this stuff daily? There are too many other college options out there for students to choose.

Now, I am in no way shape or form saying there aren't racist issues, or that students of color do not experience things on that campus. I think students of color experience things everyday on a college campus, but there are things here that aren't lining up with the overall cause that seems to be coming out which has me questioning what is really going on down there

[RainMaker]

I think on the surface no one would car about Bobs autos paying a couple grand to the local college star. But what about when Nike opens the checkbook and drops 1,000,000 each on the top 85.

How do you allow one without the other?

And if you don't care about the sconbd scenario, understand you are taking d1 down to 4 teams. 5 max.

I still don't get why you would care about a grown adult making a private deal with a 3rd party. It costs the schools nothing. Why would you be concerned with what Nike chooses to pay someone?

[Kodos]

No, it might incite unity.

In this country these days? Not so much.

[bob]

I still don't get why you would care about a grown adult making a private deal with a 3rd party. It costs the schools nothing. Why would you be concerned with what Nike chooses to pay someone?

Because it has the potential to kill any competitive balance, and without that, sport is ruined.

[RainMaker]

Because it has the potential to kill any competitive balance, and without that, sport is ruined.

College sports care about parity now? When did this start?

[bob]

College sports care about parity now? When did this start?

I didn't say parity, I said competitive balance. See scholarship limitations, etc.

[RainMaker]

I didn't say parity, I said competitive balance. See scholarship limitations, etc.

So why allow schools with $100+ million athletic budgets to compete with schools with $20 million athletic budgets? Teams that pays its head coach less than other school's pay their assistants? Schools refusing to play other schools on the road?

Just seems weird to bring up competitive balance when college athletics cares so little about it in every other facet.

[RainMaker]

I mean LSU which has a $123 million athletic budget scheduled McNeese State that has a $10 milliion athletic budget. The Tight Ends coach at LSU makes more money than the Head Coach at McNeese State.

But it's about competitive balance.

[bob]

I'm not sure that's a fully fair comparison as I have no idea how many sports one school has vs the other, but I do understand your point that competitive balance is far from fully achieved by the rules in place due to a variety of circumstances. Hopefully you understand my point that balance would get far worse if you open the floodgates, and if you are willing to do that, you might as well have a 20 team division. No one else could come close.

[Logan]

LSU and McNeese State aren't trying to be competitive. McNeese is fine playing LSU and being blown out by LSU because without playing them, or a similar team, they'd have an $8.5 million annual athletic budget.

There are plenty of people out there who are fine with the idea of the P5 breaking away from the NCAA and operating more like a professional league. It's just not happening anytime soon so we're stuck with what we have.

[RainMaker]

I'm not sure that's a fully fair comparison as I have no idea how many sports one school has vs the other, but I do understand your point that competitive balance is far from fully achieved by the rules in place due to a variety of circumstances. Hopefully you understand my point that balance would get far worse if you open the floodgates, and if you are willing to do that, you might as well have a 20 team division. No one else could come close.

You have that now. There's only a handful of schools that are capable of winning a NC these days. They all have athletic budgets that dwarf other schools. They all recruit the best players in the country.

I don't see how any of that changes if players can sign endorsement deals or work at a car dealership over the summer.

[RainMaker]

LSU and McNeese State aren't trying to be competitive.

I understand that. It's why arguing about competitive balance is silly. The schools don't give a shit about that at all.

[bob]

Crying Wolfe Exposes Real Problem by Jason Whitlock

http://j.school/post/133025099640/crying-wolfe-exposes-real-problem

[molson]

And if you don't care about the sconbd scenario, understand you are taking d1 down to 4 teams. 5 max.

Who would those teams be and why would #6 be unable to compete? Are the majority of top 20 QBs suddenly all going to be willing to sit on the sidelines with the top 4? I'd think they'd make more endorsement money having great years for Florida or Florida St or USC or Michigan or whatever big schools are outside that top 4. Same with every other position.

Even in the top 5 conferences today there's no competitive balance. There's the bigger athletic programs and the smaller ones with very little turnover. There's no cylindrical nature to success in college sports, the bigger schools always have the same advantages with recruiting every year. They don't have to pick at the end of a draft or clear out cap space.

[bob]

There's no cylindrical nature to success in college sports, the bigger schools always have the same advantages with recruiting every year. They don't have to pick at the end of a draft or clear out cap space.

Not sure I fully agree there - see Texas in the toilet and TCU and Baylor at the top of the Big 12.

[molson]

But that's just based on performances of the teams in recruiting. There's nothing inherent about the system that makes it more difficult for successful teams to continue being successful like there are in professional sports that actually care some about competitive balance. In fact, being successful generally HELPS your future in college sports.

[bob]

So are you saying that the NCAA doesn't limit things like boosters paying players not because they care about competitive balance, but because they are mean?

[RainMaker]

The rise of TCU and Baylor have coincided with enormous increases in their athletic budgets over the last decade.

[molson]

So are you saying that the NCAA doesn't limit things like boosters paying players not because they care about competitive balance, but because they are mean?

I think it's all part of the myth they want to keep up that this these are student-athletes and that this is amateur sports. Take that away and it will be harder to exploit the players.

[RainMaker]

I think it's all part of the myth they want to keep up that this these are student-athletes and that this is amateur sports. Take that away and it will be harder to exploit the players.

This. Plus the athletes are competition for revenue. If Nike can't pay the athletes directly, they'll pay the school to advertise. If an alum can't pay an athlete a ton of money to shake hands outside his auto dealership, he'll donate to the school's athletic department.

[spleen1015]

Crying Wolfe Exposes Real Problem by Jason Whitlock

http://j.school/post/133025099640/crying-wolfe-exposes-real-problem

No one wants to hear the truth, bob.

[miami_fan]

Sounds like Gary Pinkel has resigned.

[ISiddiqui]

Well he had lymphoma. Apparently they are saying its related to health issues.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Terrible loss for the university. Guy is the best coach in the history of the program and has been a great ambassador for the university. Will be interesting to see if they hire internally or look somewhere else.

[CU Tiger]

Who would those teams be and why would #6 be unable to compete? Are the majority of top 20 QBs suddenly all going to be willing to sit on the sidelines with the top 4? I'd think they'd make more endorsement money having great years for Florida or Florida St or USC or Michigan or whatever big schools are outside that top 4. Same with every other position.




They probably aren't all who you'd think.
1 - Oregon
2 - Oklahoma St
3 - Texas
4 - (Maybe) Alabama
5 - (Maybe) SMU

Long Drop to #6

A couple years ago T Boon Pickens did an interview when there was talk of Saban to...somewhere. He made the statement, if you can guarantee a National Championship I'd pay him $100MM /year for 5 years.

Sure LSU has a $125MM AD budget.

Phil Knight could write that a year to Oregon himself. Forget exposure, they'd offer a straight $1,000,000 to every HS star. You'd have a situation where Oregon might have the best 10 Qbs Nationally. Every. Year.

There is HUGE money here no doubt.

Remember I've always advocated paying players, to some degree. But the wild west ends college football.

I also dont think most realize how good most college players have it.
I think meal stipends on road games are up to around $150. And food is available for free. Every football player is getting all his clothes and shoes for free. Free ipads (multiple) free macbooks..(these are game plan study aids.) Free transportation around campus, (skyboards, scooters, etc) Free education and books. Most are selling the books right back for ~$2k/semester. Then if you qualify (most do) they get a full pell grant refunded to them ($5,700 per semester) plus state grants (lottery scholarships etc.)

If we are being honest most D1 players are making ~$18k/year on top of a free education. use that education wisely and it can set you for life or alter your life. It aint a bad gig.

[tarcone]

Pinkel decided over the summer. He will hold a press conference after tomorrow's game. Isiddiqui is correct.
Huge loss for Mizzou. But they should get a high quality replacement.

[MizzouRah]

Terrible loss for the university. Guy is the best coach in the history of the program and has been a great ambassador for the university. Will be interesting to see if they hire internally or look somewhere else.

Just horrible.. I wish the best for him and his health. :(

Not sure who is going to want to come here, will be interesting.

[BishopMVP]

Uh oh, (presumably white male) supremacists are running rampant at Amherst College now, posting hateful, racially insensitive posters - https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12243514_10153274130646270_4362608361479856598_n.jpg?oh=28b134a735778aec88acd3c925cefd29&oe=56EEED86

My favorite demand of theirs - "8. Dean Epstein must ask faculty to excuse all students from all 5 College classes, work shifts, and assignments from November 12th, 2015 to November 13th, 2015 given their organization of and attendance at the Sit-In."

I'm just surprised the students aren't demanding to be paid for protesting against the incredibly prestigious (and incredibly liberal) university that's admitted them, supports them, and will give them a leg up on almost any person in the world once they graduate.

[Atocep]

I also dont think most realize how good most college players have it.
I think meal stipends on road games are up to around $150. And food is available for free. Every football player is getting all his clothes and shoes for free. Free ipads (multiple) free macbooks..(these are game plan study aids.) Free transportation around campus, (skyboards, scooters, etc) Free education and books. Most are selling the books right back for ~$2k/semester. Then if you qualify (most do) they get a full pell grant refunded to them ($5,700 per semester) plus state grants (lottery scholarships etc.)

If we are being honest most D1 players are making ~$18k/year on top of a free education. use that education wisely and it can set you for life or alter your life. It aint a bad gig.


This is what I was getting at earlier. The number I saw probably 5 years ago was about $17k per year to D1 players and that's obviously before the CoA kicks in. So the Shabazz Napier going hungry thing was either a lie or he's a typical college kid that's not managing his money well.

Improving healthcare for athletes that leave college with long term injuries should be the priority.

The ideas that get tossed around by those that don't understand that athletes aren't doing too bad push things further and further toward athletes becoming university employees. This is not something most athletes want to happen as a scholarship likely becomes taxable income at some point down the road. That would likely be the death of athletic scholarships.

[molson]

I don't understand how "they're making enough" is a compelling argument. Their earning power is still artificially held down, on and off campus, way more than any other student, or any other context I can think of. Nobody seems to make that argument with regard to multi-million dollar coach salaries. Isn't say, $500,000 "enough"? Why not just pay coaches in graduate school credit and some tablets? Maybe everything above that should be against the rules. If we're going to make some broad decision about what's "enough" for everyone.

[Atocep]

I don't understand how "they're making enough" is a compelling argument. Their earning power is still artificially held down, on and off campus, way more than any other student, or any other context I can think of. Nobody seems to make that argument with regard to multi-million dollar coach salaries. Isn't say, $500,000 "enough"? Why not just pay coaches in graduate school credit and some tablets? Maybe everything above that should be against the rules. If we're going to make some broad decision about what's "enough" for everyone.


College athletes, by accepting the scholarship, are entering an agreement they understand before accepting. They're getting a college education, instruction and training, room and board, and numerous other perks.

The instruction and training alone that a player receives over his 4 years at a school is probably worth as much as the scholarship.

Is that enough? Hard to say. For 99% of scholarship athletes its probably far more than the value they bring in return to the school. As I've always said, it's a very small number of scholarship athletes that break the system. Rewriting the rules to take care of them at the expense of everyone else is idiocy IMO.

[molson]

It's true, they agreed to the deal, so they do have to live with it or go home, but the events of the past week made it clear that they could get a much better deal if they stood up for themselves.

College isn't for everyone. For some of these guys, giving them free college is like giving me a free scholarship to football camp instead of a salary at work. For the rest, they're not really getting the standard college education experience. The diplomas (for the few that get them), should have an asterisk. They're there to play sports and that's it. So it's kind of a pointless compensation. And worse, it perpetuates the myth that these are student-athletes and that this is amateur sports. Which allows the schools to exploit their services for millions and millions in revenue, where the main thing they have to "give up" is what, exactly, a chair in a classroom that they fill 40% of the time, if that? Artificial "attendance" at the university? What does that even really mean when it's kind of based on a weird fiction to begin with? Imagine if they made someone a doctor or a lawyer or anything else just because they were really good at some completely unrelated skill. It'd be a meaningless designation. It's actually kind of like when universities give honorary degrees to celebrities.

I agree that most of them aren't worth much individually, but if that's true, why not let players make their own deals, on and off campus? If someone is only worthy of a scholarship, that's all they'll get. Or maybe they're not even worth that and student-athletes should be, oh I don't know, actual students as the schools.

[BishopMVP]

The diplomas (for the few that get them), should have an asterisk. They're there to play sports and that's it.Stop it. NCAA athletes graduate at a higher rate than regular students, and its mostly because they have a support staff following them and helping them. There's enough problems with the system we don't need to make up other stuff.

EDIT - the more I think about this, the more I'm reminded of "the soft bigotry of low expectations". Yes, there are plenty of athletes who don't take advantage of the opportunity provided them, but there are numerous more who do, and I don't blame CU Tiger for being offended one bit.

[CU Tiger]

It's true, they agreed to the deal, so they do have to live with it or go home, but the events of the past week made it clear that they could get a much better deal if they stood up for themselves.

College isn't for everyone. For some of these guys, giving them free college is like giving me a free scholarship to football camp instead of a salary at work. For the rest, they're not really getting the standard college education experience. The diplomas (for the few that get them), should have an asterisk. They're there to play sports and that's it. So it's kind of a pointless compensation. And worse, it perpetuates the myth that these are student-athletes and that this is amateur sports. Which allows the schools to exploit their services for millions and millions in revenue, where the main thing they have to "give up" is what, exactly, a chair in a classroom that they fill 40% of the time, if that? Artificial "attendance" at the university? What does that even really mean when it's kind of based on a weird fiction to begin with? Imagine if they made someone a doctor or a lawyer or anything else just because they were really good at some completely unrelated skill. It'd be a meaningless designation. It's actually kind of like when universities give honorary degrees to celebrities.

I agree that most of them aren't worth much individually, but if that's true, why not let players make their own deals, on and off campus? If someone is only worthy of a scholarship, that's all they'll get. Or maybe they're not even worth that and student-athletes should be, oh I don't know, actual students as the schools.

I'm trying to respond rationally and without extreme emotion but, it's...difficult.

I was a child of the foster care system. Grew up in a group home for troubled youths. Was arrested 20+ times by age 13 for crimes ranging from breaking and entering to assault to possession of alcohol by a minor. I was 10 on that last one, btw.

I went to college because I could play a sport a little bit. I got my asterisked degree and a replacement knee. By 24 I had my own business, by 30 I employed 50 people. By 35 I had sold said company and changed my family's outlook for a couple generations. I am raising two wonderful kids and by all accounts a pretty damned good dad, despite never having one of those of my own.

My degree has made me millions. My football career made me millions. Despite never earning a letter or making a travel squad or seeing playing time in a single game. I am not special. I am more the norm than the exception. You've never read my story (nor should you have) in a sports magazine. You've read about the uber talented block heads. They are the exception. Sports has paved the way for so many people out of their personal prisons into a life of (relative) prosperity.

I mentor 3 college kids every week. These kids struggle and work their assess off to pass their exams. You want to argue they dont belong in a University system, you want to argue they are struggling with what amount to GPA boosters for the Cum Laude crowd...fine. I can engage that debate (I disagree btw, but I can accept the viewpoint)

But do not deny the socio-economic ladder rungs they are climbing.

Do not discount their ability to benefit from their degree.
Do not call it worthless.

That offends me and the tens of thousands of those like me across this country that the current NCAA student athlete system has changed our lives.

[molson]

Stop it. NCAA athletes graduate at a higher rate than regular students, and its mostly because they have a support staff following them and helping them.

And in many cases, doing their work for them, or pressuring professors into giving them good grades so they can stay eligible.

Edit: Also, I wonder what % of non-scholarship students who leave school do so because they can't afford it anymore. And many of those who can scrape by are paying for it for decades afterwards, many times over with interest. Again, that's something you never have to worry about, bizarrely, if you have the completely unrelated skill of playing a sport.

If someone's not academically qualified to be in college, I don't think they should be there, at least as students. The school should be able to hire them as athletes and pay them. It's so silly and absurd to have them actually attend classes and be students at the school.

Obviously if someone can qualify academically for the school, that can be a different story. I'd rather schools more freely give scholarships for actual academic merit, but I understand it's a business and there's money to be made. I just think that some of that should belong to the athletes, since that's the entire basis of the relationship.

Edit: And I know it's different everywhere, and every individual is different. But I went to a semi-big, mediocre, sports school and the relationship between athletics and academics was ridiculous. The athletes had their own little almost-off-campus village, drove nice cars, and didn't go to class. They didn't act like students, with a few exceptions. Most of them didn't graduate. They played sports and left.

[molson]

I'm trying to respond rationally and without extreme emotion but, it's...difficult.

I was a child of the foster care system. Grew up in a group home for troubled youths. Was arrested 20+ times by age 13 for crimes ranging from breaking and entering to assault to possession of alcohol by a minor. I was 10 on that last one, btw.

I went to college because I could play a sport a little bit. I got my asterisked degree and a replacement knee. By 24 I had my own business, by 30 I employed 50 people. By 35 I had sold said company and changed my family's outlook for a couple generations. I am raising two wonderful kids and by all accounts a pretty damned good dad, despite never having one of those of my own.

My degree has made me millions. My football career made me millions. Despite never earning a letter or making a travel squad or seeing playing time in a single game. I am not special. I am more the norm than the exception. You've never read my story (nor should you have) in a sports magazine. You've read about the uber talented block heads. They are the exception. Sports has paved the way for so many people out of their personal prisons into a life of (relative) prosperity.

I mentor 3 college kids every week. These kids struggle and work their assess off to pass their exams. You want to argue they dont belong in a University system, you want to argue they are struggling with what amount to GPA boosters for the Cum Laude crowd...fine. I can engage that debate (I disagree btw, but I can accept the viewpoint)

But do not deny the socio-economic ladder rungs they are climbing.

Do not discount their ability to benefit from their degree.
Do not call it worthless.

That offends me and the tens of thousands of those like me across this country that the current NCAA student athlete system has changed our lives.

I'm sure there's many individual success stories like yours that I'm probably discounting. And you certainly took advantage of what you were given and I can respect that. I just think it's silly that someone's ability to tackle or catch a pass gives them an opportunity that someone else doesn't get as an academic student. But, I suppose it's something, and if country and its institutions of higher learning decides that people who are really good at playing marbles are the ones who deserve academic opportunities, as non-nonsensical that connection is to me, I guess that's good that at least some people are getting those opportunities.

[CU Tiger]

I guess it becomes a "class warfare" argument.
If we ranked people on intelligence like we do income; is the goal of Universities to improve the Top 10% and separate them from the 90% or is to move more of the 40-60%-ers into the 75-85% range?

I mean the second group hopes to leave as "smart" as the first group enters...which is better for society?

I'd submit that both play a vial role.

[molson]

I think one of the most important things a country can do is to identify the individuals of great academic promise and make sure they don't slip through the cracks because of poverty or whatever else. I guess the way we value sports kind of does that accidentally, in that we take a bunch of people with skills that have nothing to do with academics, throw them into our universities because of those skills, and no doubt some of them will turn out to be those great students who can do great things and would never have otherwise had that opportunity. It's not a very efficient means to that end though. And I think it makes sports too important. It's just a backwards way of essentially choosing our future leaders, or at least the ones who move up in class. Edit: If you're a middle, lower-middle or lower-income high school student, and you can either focus on school or focus on your sport you excel at, you should absolutely focus on your sport. That sports talent is valued above all else when it comes to your next step in life. Which is just weird when you think about it. Teachers and parents who say, restrict a star athlete's sporting activities because the student got a bad grade or misbehaved, are compromising that student's future.

[nol]

maybe that's a good thing

Kean Twitter threats were made by rally participant, authorities say | NJ.com (http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2015/12/arrest_made_in_kean_twitter_threat.html#incart_river_home)

Throwing aside the asymmetry between this and actually shooting someone, what do you think is higher: the percentage of threats such as these that are 'inside jobs' or the percentage of 'justified uses of force' that would actually result in murder or manslaughter charges if the relevant evidence ever saw the light of day?