NFL Week 10

[sabotai]

I think the Miami defense forgot that the tight end is an eligible receiver.

[NobodyHere]

How is Cleveland so routinely incompetent?

[MikeVic]

Fantasy football man. How is big Ben the better play over bortles?? Haha. Ben shouldn't even be playing and bortles is facing the ravens crappy D.

[Thomkal]

(putting this in the proper thread) :)

Big week for my beloved Cardinals with first of two Sunday night games in a row. Win and they pretty much control the West. Lose and the floodgates might open with games against Min, Sea again, Cin, GB, Phi, and StL coming up in the weeks ahead.

Landry Jones out with injury in Pittsburgh-Big Ben in and looking good. Pitt better hope he stays healthy-Heath Miller is the emergency QB.

How does the NO defensive coordinator still have a job? Kirk Cousins the latest to look like an elite QB against it-nearly 300 yards passing.

And he no longer has a job

[albionmoonlight]

Saints defense is putting on a historically bad show in case anyone was interested.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm not generally a fan of firing coaches mid-season. I think that it tends to be a move driven solely by optics.

But watching how completely the Saints defense has fallen makes me think you have to fire Ryan during the bye. At some point, you owe it to the other players on the team.

[Thomkal]

Cleveland and Pitt have combined -3 rushing yards so far.

[Abe Sargent]

House with another pick baby - he is owning Baltimore right now

[cuervo72]

Saints defense is putting on a historically bad show in case anyone was interested.

Watching, and they're not good.

[Thomkal]

Watching, and they're not good.

Washington up to 450 yards combined offense...

[Abe Sargent]

I swear, Jason Myers will be out of a job tomorrow.

[Comey]

There went Bradford. Sanchez in.

[Thomkal]

Bradford hurt in St. Louis-surprised he lasted this long...in locker room with shoulder injury.

[JPhillips]

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned here before, but commentators, please stop calling a reverse a double reverse.

[Solecismic]

So, Aaron Rodgers must be hurt, right? The Lions were the only team in the NFL giving up more than 30 a game going into today.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned here before, but commentators, please stop calling a reverse a double reverse.

+1

[Atocep]

Note to Jeff Fisher, putting a guy in motion on a punt signals that it may be a fake.

[Atocep]

This Rams team should be better than they are. At some point the excuses for Jeff Fisher need to stop and you have to expect some results.

Last winning season as a coach 2008

6 winning seasons in 20 years as a head coach

Is there any other coach that's had credentials like that and is as well respected as Fisher?

[cuervo72]

Stupid Latino Rex.

[Radii]

Carolina looked pretty bad on offense in long stretches against Tennessee, the Titans got a ton of pressure on Cam and blew up Stewart in the backfield many times, but it ends up 27-10, 9-0!!!

[SirFozzie]

The Eagles just got Sanchized!

[NobodyHere]

Lions just got Pratered!

[Abe Sargent]

Okay, Jason Myers just redeemed himself with a 53 yarder to win it.

[Abe Sargent]

3-5 babY!

[Radii]

That Baltimore/Jacksonville ending was hilarious

[cuervo72]

The entire Ravens season has been like that.

[bhlloy]

What the hell happened to the Packers? I'm trying to remember a team that has gone from favorite to playing this bad over the span of a few weeks

[JPhillips]

Chanting USA! USA! after the Paris moment of silence is a little odd.

[NobodyHere]

Well the Lions still have 32 seconds to blow this 2 point lead.

[NobodyHere]

Well the Lions still have 32 seconds to blow this 2 point lead.

And the Packers recover the onside :banghead:

[cuervo72]

I think I'd rather watch MIN/OAK than what is likely another clinical display by the Patriots. But, NE/NYG is what I get. *shurg*

[NobodyHere]

Lions win!!!

[thesloppy]

I was 20 the last time the Lions won in GB!

[BishopMVP]

I think I'd rather watch MIN/OAK than what is likely another clinical display by the Patriots. But, NE/NYG is what I get. *shurg*And the Patriots just set the NFL record by scoring in their 32nd straight quarter. That's just absurd.

[NobodyHere]

I was 20 the last time the Lions won in GB!

8 Lions players weren't born yet last time Detroit Lions beat Green Bay Packers at Lambeau Field | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/detroit-lions-green-bay-packers-at-lambeau-field-losing-streak-111215)

Does this make you feel old?

[sabotai]

I was in....7th grade, I think. Maybe 8th....long enough ago that I'd have to consult old yearbooks to figure it out.

[Julio Riddols]

Man, there was a lot of wild action in the early games.. My goodness. That Jags/Ravens finish was nuts.

[Eaglesfan27]

Surprise surprise.. Sam Bradford went down with an injury again. Meanwhile, the Eagles blow an early lead and lose 20-19 to the Dolphins.

[Thomkal]

I think I'd rather watch MIN/OAK than what is likely another clinical display by the Patriots. But, NE/NYG is what I get. *shurg*

Get Red Zone :)

[Thomkal]

Aaron Rogers late in the 4th quarter against the hapless Lions...seems like fate...uh wait a minute.

Mason Crosby late in the 4th quarter against the hapless Lions...seems like fate...uh wait a minute.

What a horrible loss for the Packers. Congrats to the Lions for breaking the streak though.

[Thomkal]

That Baltimore/Jacksonville ending was hilarious

Jax should have lost that game twice. Not a believer in Bortles. If Balt held on to that INT, it would have been the 3rd straight game with a late game INT.

[Logan]

Note to Jeff Fisher, putting a guy in motion on a punt signals that it may be a fake.

Must have been watching the Rutgers game yesterday.

[cuervo72]

Get Red Zone :)

This is my first year in about ten trying to get through the season without Sunday Ticket (unlike cable I don't think DTV sells just Red Zone, though I could be wrong). I figure half the time I will see the Eagles anyway (I think this year it will be half the games) and when I can't I'll be content to watch Washington flounder. This week wouldn't have been good in any case -- though I am probably more at peace having not watched the Eagles than I would be if I had to sit through that.

[Danny]

Carr is best young qb in the NFL

[Arles]

I have an idea for Rodgers on his radio show this week. Instead of R-E-L-A-X, he should say W-E-S-U-C-K.

[NobodyHere]

It's a good thing Peyton only needed about 3 yards to break Favre's record.

[Logan]

Peyton pulled.

[NobodyHere]

bRock and Roll time!

[kingfc22]

It's a good thing Peyton only needed about 3 yards to break Favre's record.

:lol:

[bob]

Peyton pulled.

Maybe he thought he was going for Farve's interceptions record.

[JPhillips]

Hey Eli, don't tell the RB not to score.

[miami_fan]

The matchup between Beckham and Butler looks like it would be a fun one to have an iso cam on all game.

[miami_fan]

I have no clue.

[JPhillips]

That can't possibly be a catch.

[kingfc22]

And that's a TD?

[sabotai]

Doesn't look like it to me.

[EagleFan]

That was a bad call, he had both feet down before that ball was knocked out. That was the third foot down when the ball was knocked out.

[JPhillips]

NY continues the tradition of terrible end game clock management.

[Thomkal]

Peyton pulled.

Peyton, run not walk to retirement, especially now that you have the record.

[EagleFan]

Shouldn't that have been a penalty on coach hoodie, well out of the coaches box calling that timeout.

[sabotai]

NY continues the tradition of terrible end game clock management.

Was just going to mention this. That pass shouldn't have happened. Passing with 2:01 doesn't matter, but the play before should not have been a pass.

[sabotai]

.....almost. Would have been a hell of a catch.

[EagleFan]

Would have been a nice catch for the interception. Really poor decision and throw by Brady.

[JPhillips]

Was just going to mention this. That pass shouldn't have happened. Passing with 2:01 doesn't matter, but the play before should not have been a pass.

At least two of the three plays should have been runs.

[kingfc22]

Regardless of the outcome on the kick...Brady is just so damn good.

[JPhillips]

Three Giants losses due to poor end game clock management.

[SirFozzie]

If we yell GRONK for every big play by Gronkowski, do we now yell GOST ???

[Logan]

Three Giants losses due to poor end game clock management.

+1

That was a bad call, he had both feet down before that ball was knocked out. That was the third foot down when the ball was knocked out.

Incorrect.

[General Mike]

Knew the Giants were going to lose when they settled for the FG, then they got my hopes up with the dropped interception.

[SteveMax58]

Was just going to mention this. That pass shouldn't have happened. Passing with 2:01 doesn't matter, but the play before should not have been a pass.

Yes exactly. I just don't understand why it seems so impossible for them to get it right. I mean, who is calling that play as a pass? And who isn't yelling at that person to run.

I was texting my friend that on 1st and 2nd down I would have no problem with a QB kneel. 3rd down run the ball for the end zone. 4th down (if necessary) kick the FG. That leaves 1:10 for the Patriots and no timeouts.

Even running on 1st/2nd3rd down would have been a better strategy.

[Solecismic]

I think you go for the throat. Whether you leave 1:10 on the clock or 1:50, that's still plenty of time for a field goal. But you get that touchdown and it's twice as big a challenge for Brady.

Same reason I thought it was smart football way back when the Patriots had that fourth-down miss in their own territory that gave the ball back to Peyton Manning and Indy. If you have the opportunity to deliver the final blow and you don't take it, that's just not showing confidence in a championship-caliber team.

Say what you will, but there's only one team in the last nine years with multiple Super Bowl wins, and that team is coached by Tom Coughlin. He knows what he's doing there and I'm sure the players support those calls completely.

[Julio Riddols]

I think 1st down they should have just snapped it and run around in the backfield for 6 seconds before throwing it out of bounds. They needed to get it under 2 minutes on that play.

[JPhillips]

I don't think running is not going for the TD. They were on the five. Three runs could have easily ended in a TD.

[sabotai]

I've decided not to be pessimistic and am going to look at the silver lining. The Giants showed they can play with the best team in the league, and they did it without their best CB (Amukamara), JPP just came back and they are still without WR Cruz. They still lead the division. If they can find their way to the playoffs (will most likely need to win the division), they have what it takes to make another run.

[JPhillips]

With the Packers problems, are the Vikings the best team in the NFC?

[Solecismic]

Going into today, Carolina had a 30 SoV. No one else in the NFC had more than 19. What exactly do the Panthers have to do to give people confidence that this is a pretty good team?

Editing: as of right now - Carolina 34, Minnesota 22, Green Bay 21, Atlanta 20, New York 18, Arizona 17, New Orleans 17.

[Radii]

With the Packers problems, are the Vikings the best team in the NFC?

2nd or third best depending on what you think of Arizona I suppose.

[cartman]

Even after losing 7 straight, the Cowboys are only 2.5 back of the division lead.

[Galaril]

So wow based on today's results it looks like it is Pats or Bengals for SB ring and not even close.

[Julio Riddols]

I think an all cat super bowl would be a good one. A rematch of the tie from last season.

[sabotai]

2nd or third best depending on what you think of Arizona I suppose.

They're certainly making a case for themselves tonight.

[EagleFan]

That's a fumble.

[EagleFan]

lol, the announcers knew that the play was under review before the refs did.

[NobodyHere]

Is it just me or have the games been achingly slow today.

[EagleFan]

Not just you.

[NobodyHere]

Thanks replay officials for slowing the game down for nothing.

[EagleFan]

I give up.

[NobodyHere]

I give up.

It probably should've been a fumble, but there was no way that call was getting reversed.

[Thomkal]

nice dominating half of football for my beloved Cards. Always great to see Sherman get burned. Just hope the Iupati injury is not too severe.

[stevew]

Going into today, Carolina had a 30 SoV. No one else in the NFC had more than 19. What exactly do the Panthers have to do to give people confidence that this is a pretty good team?

Editing: as of right now - Carolina 34, Minnesota 22, Green Bay 21, Atlanta 20, New York 18, Arizona 17, New Orleans 17.

I feel like we've seen this before from them. They are a well coached team. The receivers still worry me a ton.

[Atocep]

Going into today, Carolina had a 30 SoV. No one else in the NFC had more than 19. What exactly do the Panthers have to do to give people confidence that this is a pretty good team?

Editing: as of right now - Carolina 34, Minnesota 22, Green Bay 21, Atlanta 20, New York 18, Arizona 17, New Orleans 17.

In fairness, it's hard to be sold on a team with a QB completing 54% of his passes.

[Solecismic]

I feel like we've seen this before from them. They are a well coached team. The receivers still worry me a ton.

As we've seen so many times over the last decade or so, when you have a quarterback who can really hurt you with the run, he doesn't have to have the best arm.

The problem with those quarterbacks is that they get dinged up, and that affects their passes more than their running. Then you can dedicate a spy and rush more to maintain the edge during pass plays.

Right now Cam Newton is healthy, and his arm is good enough to keep defenses honest. He's running a ton and he's got good receivers that defenses have to respect. It's not pretty, but that offense is hard to stop. I think they're a real threat.

Good to hear that Iupati has feeling in his hands and feet.

[EagleFan]

Beast mode.

[Groundhog]

5-20 with 4 picks. Yikes. That's only about 25% more completions than I would manage in 20 throws against an NFL defense.

[jbergey22]

With the Packers problems, are the Vikings the best team in the NFC?

Best Team, Nah. They are finally a well coached team after years have not having that. Best Team or favs in the NFC Id say 1. Carolina 2. Arizona 3. Green Bay. Vikings being 4th or 5th.

[thesloppy]

Best Team, Nah. They are finally a well coached team after years have not having that. Best Team or favs in the NFC Id say 1. Carolina 2. Arizona 3. Green Bay. Vikings being 4th or 5th.

I agree. I think the Vikings are playing great ball, and doing so by recognizing exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are and playing within those constraints, while plenty of more talented teams in the NFC are seemingly suffering by trying to repeatedly shove the same square pegs into the same round holes. It does go to show the value of coaching in the NFL, and how many teams seem to get sabotaged by their inability to match system to talent.

I'm still not entirely sold on Teddy Bridgewater....for his strengths of accuracy and game management, he still pretty much tops out at 200 yards and 1 TD a game. Catching lightning in a bottle occasionally is one thing, but can they really make the playoffs consistently behind a QB putting up less than 3,500 yards & 20 TDs in a season?

[jbergey22]

I'm still not entirely sold on Teddy Bridgewater....for his strengths of accuracy and game management, he still pretty much tops out at 200 yards and 1 TD a game. Catching lightning in a bottle occasionally is one thing, but can they really make the playoffs consistently behind a QB putting up less than 3,500 yards & 20 TDs in a season?

Agreed! He either doesnt have the confidence to throw the ball downfield or he is being coached as a game manager. Eventually if he is to evolve into a top tier QB he will need to win the shootout type games against Rogers/Brees/Brady. Still a longshot IMO. Very accurate on short throws however which is a huge plus for the QBs the Vikings have been living with.

[Solecismic]

Carson, there are better ways to maximize time of possession.

[EagleFan]

This game is swinging a great direction. Hope it keeps going this way.

[Solecismic]

And while Arizona looks done, that may be the worst 2-point decision I've seen all year. Or is Seattle without a kicker?

[sabotai]

They're certainly making a case for themselves tonight.

Well, maybe not...

[EagleFan]

If the NFL average for two point success is 49%, is it better returns to always go for two?

[Thomkal]

Boy talk about a tale of two halves. The Iupati injury has certainly had its effect, but Carson needs to hold on to the damned ball.

[Radii]

Very nice recovery by Arizona to take control of the game again.

[Solecismic]

This season, the NFL 2-point average is 51%. Over the last eight years, it has been 47%. Range is 40%-51% over that time. Five-year average is 48%.

This season, the extra-point average is 95.0%. Seattle has not missed one.

Pure theory suggests there's a tiny advantage to always going for two. However... teams have only a small number of plays they like to use in these situations, so there might be diminishing returns.

At this point - a shade past half-way through the season, teams have gone 55 times, which is a little below the recent average for the entire season. So teams are going for it more often. Pittsburgh, Chicago and Cleveland seem to be doing this when they don't have to. Most teams aren't.

I don't think it's a good strategy. Just like with college overtime, or baseball extra innings, there's an advantage to forcing your opponent's hand. If they take a risk and fail, you benefit from not having to take that risk.

Let's say your universe is limited to two scores. Team A scores and kicks the extra point. Then you score. Here's what happens.

A: 95% 7 points, 5% 6 points. You score. You choose to kick the extra point and your W-L-T matrix is 5-5-91, more or less.

Instead your opponent scores and goes for 2.

A: 48% 8 points, 52% 6 points. You score. Your strategy is already dictated. You go for 2 if A made it, you kick if A missed.

Now your W-L-T matrix is approximately 49-25-26.

Game theory indicates that you always delay risk as long as possible, when risk is 50/50 or worse.

If you feel your 2pc percentage is much higher than 50%, then you go for it later more frequently. But unless you're around 66-67% on 2pc, you don't go for it early.

[stevew]

If the NFL average for two point success is 49%, is it better returns to always go for two?

Yes. Everyone should be going for two nearly every time if you have a great offense.

[Thomkal]

whew! Looked like the Seahawks had all the momentum and were on the way to a much needed win last night-thank god Palmer was able to right the ship and put a lock on the division. Big game next Sunday night against CIN-very likely an undefeated Bengals team. Palmer and Grisham no doubt would like to win this one against their old team.

[albionmoonlight]

That's the game the Cards needed to win. Good job by them coming out strong and holding on.

[albionmoonlight]

This season, the NFL 2-point average is 51%. Over the last eight years, it has been 47%. Range is 40%-51% over that time. Five-year average is 48%.

This season, the extra-point average is 95.0%. Seattle has not missed one.

Pure theory suggests there's a tiny advantage to always going for two. However... teams have only a small number of plays they like to use in these situations, so there might be diminishing returns.

At this point - a shade past half-way through the season, teams have gone 55 times, which is a little below the recent average for the entire season. So teams are going for it more often. Pittsburgh, Chicago and Cleveland seem to be doing this when they don't have to. Most teams aren't.

I don't think it's a good strategy. Just like with college overtime, or baseball extra innings, there's an advantage to forcing your opponent's hand. If they take a risk and fail, you benefit from not having to take that risk.

Let's say your universe is limited to two scores. Team A scores and kicks the extra point. Then you score. Here's what happens.

A: 95% 7 points, 5% 6 points. You score. You choose to kick the extra point and your W-L-T matrix is 5-5-91, more or less.

Instead your opponent scores and goes for 2.

A: 48% 8 points, 52% 6 points. You score. Your strategy is already dictated. You go for 2 if A made it, you kick if A missed.

Now your W-L-T matrix is approximately 49-25-26.

Game theory indicates that you always delay risk as long as possible, when risk is 50/50 or worse.

If you feel your 2pc percentage is much higher than 50%, then you go for it later more frequently. But unless you're around 66-67% on 2pc, you don't go for it early.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for gaming it out. I've been wondering about this.

[miami_fan]

Peyton Manning of Denver Broncos has torn plantar fascia in right foot (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14143938/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-torn-plantar-fascia-right-foot)

I am torn in deciding whether this is a excuse or explanation for his bad performance.

[panerd]

whew! Looked like the Seahawks had all the momentum and were on the way to a much needed win last night-thank god Palmer was able to right the ship and put a lock on the division. Big game next Sunday night against CIN-very likely an undefeated Bengals team. Palmer and Grisham no doubt would like to win this one against their old team.

Palmer refused to play for Cincinnati and then retired instead of playing for them. I was the world's biggest Palmer fan 10 years ago and don't exactly hate him now but it was his choice and not Cincinnati's to not play for them anymore. He did get us Bernard out of the ridiculous Raider trade.

[BillJasper]

Peyton Manning of Denver Broncos has torn plantar fascia in right foot (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14143938/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-torn-plantar-fascia-right-foot)

I am torn in deciding whether this is a excuse or explanation for his bad performance.

When the body goes, it goes. He'd be wise to walk away after this year.

[jeff061]

Yeah, I'm sure it's probably legit, but he's at the point where it's always going to be something.

[Kodos]

Much as I hate it, it's pretty clear that this is Manning's last season.

[Galaril]

Yes he is done it looks. Kubiak and Elway are no longer hiding the info so they can put Oswelier in there going forward and run the Kubiak offense as they wanted to in the first place. The thoughts around here are that with Oswelier's mobility he is a good fit for this offense. The O line should be improved at least in the run blocking now with two or three TE sets as well as a QB under center more. It better because without a run game the Broncos have zero chance.

[panerd]

Yes he is done it looks. Kubiak and Elway are no longer hiding the info so they can put Oswelier in there going forward and run the Kubiak offense as they wanted to in the first place. The thoughts around here are that with Oswelier's mobility he is a good fit for this offense. The O line should be improved at least in the run blocking now with two or three TE sets as well as a QB under center more. It better because without a run game the Broncos have zero chance.

Maybe my stupid CJ Anderson 2nd round fantasy pick will pan out down the stretch?

[Thomkal]

(putting this in the proper thread) :)

Big week for my beloved Cardinals with first of two Sunday night games in a row. Win and they pretty much control the West. Lose and the floodgates might open with games against Min, Sea again, Cin, GB, Phi, and StL coming up in the weeks ahead.

Landry Jones out with injury in Pittsburgh-Big Ben in and looking good. Pitt better hope he stays healthy-Heath Miller is the emergency QB.

How does the NO defensive coordinator still have a job? Kirk Cousins the latest to look like an elite QB against it-nearly 300 yards passing.

And he no longer has a job

Saints are firing defensive coordinator Rob Ryan | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/new-orleans-saints-fire-defensive-coordinator-rob-ryan-111615)

[BishopMVP]

Let's say your universe is limited to two scores. Team A scores and kicks the extra point. Then you score. Here's what happens.

A: 95% 7 points, 5% 6 points. You score. You choose to kick the extra point and your W-L-T matrix is 5-5-91, more or less.

Instead your opponent scores and goes for 2.

A: 48% 8 points, 52% 6 points. You score. Your strategy is already dictated. You go for 2 if A made it, you kick if A missed.

Now your W-L-T matrix is approximately 49-25-26.

Game theory indicates that you always delay risk as long as possible, when risk is 50/50 or worse.

If you feel your 2pc percentage is much higher than 50%, then you go for it later more frequently. But unless you're around 66-67% on 2pc, you don't go for it early.Huh? Game theory says nothing about delaying risk in a true 50/50 scenario, although it does say a lot about not providing your opponent more information than you have (or had when you made a 50/50 decision). Of course you don't go for two when you score late to break up a tie unless you're playing in a Big 12 game, but it's not due to delaying risk it's because the other team can (and will) change how they play. Your scenario is only worth considering if both teams have to declare whether they'll go for two at the time the initial TD is scored - otherwise the advantage goes to the 2nd team not because of any risk factor but because of the additional information they gain before they have to make their decision. There are also undoubtedly other situations where you don't go for 2 because it would make the other team play differently (scoring a TD to go up 7 is the obvious example - kick the XP to go up 8 and the opponent will treat it like a 1-score game when it's really not, but make a 2-pt conversion to go up 9 and they'd hurry up much more and treat it like a 2-score game.) On the flip side the classic example that many weak coaches mess up is scoring a TD when down 15 and opting to kick the XP to "make it a one-score game" when in fact you want to know the answer of whether you make that 50% risk with as much time left as possible.

The real question that you could map out is whether you go for 2 when down 14 late - I argue that you do if your 2-pt rate anywhere close to half of the rate you make XP's*. I'd also argue that going for 2 after scoring an opening TD is worth it, but that's impossible to quantify because there are so many future variables and ripple effects.

And of course, the other argument is that there are certain teams (Oregon under Chip Kelly, Baylor/TCU/etc, maybe the Carolina Panthers, or Patriots/Steelers especially before injuries - although in the Patriots case the chance of a made XP is also higher than 95%) where the 2-pt success rate is well above 50%. I don't disagree with the idea that teams have limited plays for that situation so you don't want to do it all the time, but it's well more than 2-3 plays available. It's not a 4th & 17 where you need to get fancy or exploit one hole, it's effectively a 4th & 2, albeit in a limited area that makes it more difficult than a 4th & 2 at midfield.

As far as last night specifically, the 2-pt conversions had absolutely zero to do with Seattle losing the game. It just would have been a 38-28 or 40-34 loss instead of 39-32. Given the game context going for 2 down 25-23 was absolutely the right decision, regardless how much Cris Collinsworth wants to criticize it after the risk failed. If Seattle had kicked both XP's and been trailing 32-31 from 8:41-the 2:00 warning they would have been getting mercilessly and deservedly mocked (and Andre Ellington very well may have just gone down in bounds instead of scoring the TD to make it 39-31.) You're also supposing that Seattle would have made their first hypothetical 2-pt attempt of the night at a 39-37 scoreline when we already saw them miss their first attempt (and then their 2nd) in the actual scenario that played out.

* - Let's give it a try. Down 14, score a TD with under 2 min left, then score a 2nd TD at time expiry. Scenario A will have a 2-pt attempt on the first TD (50% success rate), Scenario B the standard expected XP/XP response (I'll even up this to a 100% success rate). And I'll toss in a Scenario C where we kick the XP after TD1, but "go for the win" after TD2.

Scenario A1 - made 2-pt after TD1, giving our team a 100% chance to win with a made XP after TD2. 50%W/0%L/0%OT

Scenario A2 - missed 2-pt after TD1, giving our team a 50% chance to tie, and a 50% chance to lose after TD2. 0%W/25%L/25%OT, thus giving the team that went for 2 a W/L/T matrix of 50/25/25, or a 62.5% chance of winning.

Scenario B - made XP after both TD's, giving our team a 0/0/100 matrix and exactly a 50% chance to win.

Scenario C - made XP after TD1, went for 2 TD2, giving our team a 50/50/0 matrix and again exactly a 50% chance to win.

So in this example, clearly "taking a risk" and going for 2 early is the best play. If you factor in a less than 100% XP conversion rate, it only becomes more so (and it also makes Scenario C more valuable than B).

[Scarecrow]

What the hell happened to the Packers? I'm trying to remember a team that has gone from favorite to playing this bad over the span of a few weeks

PING: Denver

[Thomkal]

Saints are firing defensive coordinator Rob Ryan | FOX Sports (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/new-orleans-saints-fire-defensive-coordinator-rob-ryan-111615)

Looks like I have to correct myself here. Ryan somehow still has a job at this hour. Someone who does not however is:

Rams name Case Keenum starting QB vs. Ravens - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000581729/article/rams-name-case-keenum-starting-qb-vs-ravens)

I think we can say that Bradford for Foles trade was pretty much a bust. And unless Keenum shines, I think we can add Fisher to the unemployment block.

Oh meant to say this when I saw Edelman was injured...Wes Welker came back one week too soon (to STL), Wonder if he asks for his release now given that injury.

[mckerney]

What the hell happened to the Packers?

Jinx? Packers 0-3 since Mike Ditka wore Green Bay sweater - Chicago Bears Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago-bears/post/_/id/4700834/mike-ditka-responds-to-allegations-he-jinxed-green-bay-i-dont-give-a-crap)

[Solecismic]

Bishop, once you know your opponent's total, you can use 2pc to your advantage in catching up in this type of situation. What I'm talking about is using 2pc to establish the lead. We're both showing essentially the same analysis.

Late in the game, there are nuances in the 2pc chart. In the case of Seattle's second 2pc, was staying at +4 due to the missed 2pc worth the advantage they would have received by getting to +5 with the XP rather than +6?

I thought about this, and I think no. But it's not the worst decision ever made because +6 + FG is a two-score game while +5 + FG isn't. And if you think you have a significantly better than 50% chance on a 2pc, you can use that to your advantage specifically in late-game situations.

[Thomkal]

hey guess what? The Saints really have fired Rob Ryan:

Saints fire Rob Ryan following defensive meltdown - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000581284/article/saints-fire-rob-ryan-following-defensive-meltdown)

[EagleFan]

Game over regardless, either incomplete or fumble.

[rowech]

Really crappy game plan by the Bengals and Eifert couldn't catch or block tonight.

[rowech]

AJ Green fumbles way too much.

[Radii]

And then there were two. 2003 Super Bowl rematch please.

[PilotMan]

Bengals lost. Today was a good day.

[Butter]

For whatever reason, they refuse to line up in an I-formation and let Jeremy Hill run the ball. Really has been going on all year, but could have helped quite a bit last night.

That was truly the Primetime Bengals showing up last night. The same effort they had against the Browns when they were blown out last year at home. That will continue to be the difference between the Bengals and the truly elite teams. Even when it looked like Dalton might be able to lead the comeback, Green has a key fumble. As someone else said, for an elite playmaker he sure does fumble a lot.

[PilotMan]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vEQmzdr4--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1522472624347430832.gif

[JPhillips]

I find the Bengals nationally televised collapses inexplicable. How does the whole offense fall apart game after game, year after year? It isn't as simple as Dalton stinking, the whole offense collapses. I've never seen a team so consistently good in non-natioanlly televised games be so bad when the spotlight falls on them.

[Thomkal]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vEQmzdr4--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1522472624347430832.gif

If this was last season, Stanton would have injured himself on that.

[Thomkal]

Update on Rae Carruth's son:

Ex-NFL player Rae Carruth hired hit man to be sure this baby was - WBTV 3 News, Weather, Sports, and Traffic for Charlotte, NC (http://www.wbtv.com/story/30531851/ex-nfl-player-rae-carruth-hired-hit-man-to-be-sure-this-baby-wasnt-born-but-now-that-baby-is-16)

[Thomkal]

Cowboys release Weeden, make room for Romo | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/17/cowboys-release-weeden-make-room-for-romo/)

Guessing this will be the last we see of Weeden unless Romo gets hurt again.

[Julio Riddols]

I find the Bengals nationally televised collapses inexplicable. How does the whole offense fall apart game after game, year after year? It isn't as simple as Dalton stinking, the whole offense collapses. I've never seen a team so consistently good in non-natioanlly televised games be so bad when the spotlight falls on them.

Dalton wasn't even really that bad in this one. He had one bad throw deep, but the Texans were all over the receivers. I think it was a bad game plan though, because there is no excuse for the Bengals to not be able to make hay against that defense. The Eifert drops and the penalties were killer. The one dropped at the 12 yard line on 3rd down early in the game was a huge, huge one. Defense looked ok, but letting Yates throw that TD pass was just bad. Really no excuses for the receivers not to be open against that secondary.

[QuikSand]

this will be the last we see of Weeden

edited for brevity, clarity

[BishopMVP]

Bishop, once you know your opponent's total, you can use 2pc to your advantage in catching up in this type of situation. What I'm talking about is using 2pc to establish the lead. We're both showing essentially the same analysis.For late leads, yes, but I do think that going for 2 at 6-0 in the first quarter is an open question (and one that can't be answered with pure math). It's some combination of time left, plus the probable number of scores, not just simply (is chance of 2-pt > .5 chance of XP).

I still don't understand why they moved the 2-pt conversion line up a yard, but the numbers still appear so close that I really do think it's just personal preference about risk taking. I'd certainly be going for 2 almost any time in a Baylor/TCU game, and if the Patriots had a worse kicker I wonder if Belichick might be more aggressive since he's shown a willingness to pursue unconventional, "riskier" strategies like going for 4th & short deepcin our territory despite the PR backlash if it fails.

[Logan]

One year suspension for Aldon Smith for an August 28th "incident".

Who could have guessed?

[stevew]

Update on Rae Carruth's son:

Ex-NFL player Rae Carruth hired hit man to be sure this baby was - WBTV 3 News, Weather, Sports, and Traffic for Charlotte, NC (http://www.wbtv.com/story/30531851/ex-nfl-player-rae-carruth-hired-hit-man-to-be-sure-this-baby-wasnt-born-but-now-that-baby-is-16)

Can't believe this piece of garbage is getting out soon-the father, not the son obv.

[Thomkal]

Can't believe this piece of garbage is getting out soon-the father, not the son obv.

Yeah I was surprised he was getting out at all.

[Thomkal]

The Manziel "era" has begun in Cleveland:

Browns to start Johnny Manziel at QB for rest of season - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000582109/article/browns-to-start-johnny-manziel-at-qb-for-rest-of-season)

[stevew]

Sad that it took them 10+ weeks to figure this out. Not saying he's going to be a star, but you gotta give him a look. They also missed out on a chance to trade McCown for a late round pick probably.

[sabotai]

Victor Cruz placed on IR, he's going to have calf surgery that will keep him out the rest of the year, so no comeback this year. The football gods give the Giants Cruz and Beckham Jr, only to give us Giants fans all of 90 minutes in 2 years of them being on the field at the same time.

[BillJasper]

Charlie Batch’s 186-yard, two-pick game has ESPN’s best QBR ever | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/19/charlie-batchs-186-yard-two-pick-game-has-espns-best-qbr-ever/)

:lol:

[Julio Riddols]

The pickings couldn't get any riper for a no nonsense sports channel that covers events objectively and analyzes things with as little hyperbole as possible. Give me 50% highlight shows with 90% highlights, bring back the odd, obscure sports from all over the globe and make 25% of your programming in off peak hours this kind of stuff. Give me hosts with personalities that aren't built around controversy and stirring up shit. The other 25% of the programming can be stuff like 30 for 30 and special interest stories about sports history. If there was a network out there that just brought back what made ESPN great in its heyday, then I think the audience would certainly be there.

I kind of feel like 99% of the reason anyone loses passion for a sport is the way the media sensationalizes everything now looking for a story or some kind of divisive or controversial opinion to air. Its grating, and it eats into the fabric of what makes sports sports. It is a competition, not a beauty contest. Let the sports govern themselves and let the people decide what they think without you putting words in their mouth. Let the news papers and news channels handle the news and you just tell us what happened today on the field.

And that will mark the end of my strange rant.

[stevew]

Eh, it's the "why don't they show vids on MTV" argument. If they cover games and events like that without packaging them, I'm sure people will tune out unless their particular team is on.

[molson]

Charlie Batch’s 186-yard, two-pick game has ESPN’s best QBR ever | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/19/charlie-batchs-186-yard-two-pick-game-has-espns-best-qbr-ever/)

:lol:

Maybe that's why Batch was so great in FOF 2.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The pickings couldn't get any riper for a no nonsense sports channel that covers events objectively and analyzes things with as little hyperbole as possible. Give me 50% highlight shows with 90% highlights, bring back the odd, obscure sports from all over the globe and make 25% of your programming in off peak hours this kind of stuff. Give me hosts with personalities that aren't built around controversy and stirring up shit. The other 25% of the programming can be stuff like 30 for 30 and special interest stories about sports history. If there was a network out there that just brought back what made ESPN great in its heyday, then I think the audience would certainly be there.

I kind of feel like 99% of the reason anyone loses passion for a sport is the way the media sensationalizes everything now looking for a story or some kind of divisive or controversial opinion to air. Its grating, and it eats into the fabric of what makes sports sports. It is a competition, not a beauty contest. Let the sports govern themselves and let the people decide what they think without you putting words in their mouth. Let the news papers and news channels handle the news and you just tell us what happened today on the field.

And that will mark the end of my strange rant.

Without the hype you end up with ratings that look like PBS rather the FXNC.

[miami_fan]

The pickings couldn't get any riper for a no nonsense sports channel that covers events objectively and analyzes things with as little hyperbole as possible. Give me 50% highlight shows with 90% highlights, bring back the odd, obscure sports from all over the globe and make 25% of your programming in off peak hours this kind of stuff. Give me hosts with personalities that aren't built around controversy and stirring up shit. The other 25% of the programming can be stuff like 30 for 30 and special interest stories about sports history. If there was a network out there that just brought back what made ESPN great in its heyday, then I think the audience would certainly be there.

I kind of feel like 99% of the reason anyone loses passion for a sport is the way the media sensationalizes everything now looking for a story or some kind of divisive or controversial opinion to air. Its grating, and it eats into the fabric of what makes sports sports. It is a competition, not a beauty contest. Let the sports govern themselves and let the people decide what they think without you putting words in their mouth. Let the news papers and news channels handle the news and you just tell us what happened today on the field.

And that will mark the end of my strange rant.

I don't just direct this to you but to everyone. When exactly was the ESPN heyday? I can remember the days of George Grande and Tom Mees and people have been bitching about ESPN for most of that time.

[EagleFan]

lol, I think they edited that last bit with the quarterback selections. Sounded like Mariota's name was pronounced correctly in that one.

[cuervo72]

The other 25% of the programming can be stuff like 30 for 30 and special interest stories about sports history. If there was a network out there that just brought back what made ESPN great in its heyday, then I think the audience would certainly be there.

I was thinking about Classic Sports (and then ESPN Classic (https://espn.go.com/tvlistings/networks/classic.html)) the other day. Loved that - but then I always liked doing things like going through old Encyclopedia Year Books. I never watch ESPN News. I think I'd at least spend some time watching CSN. I know I would spend more time watching NFLN if they covered more of the old NFL Films stuff (what I do watch from them - outside of games - is typically A Football Life).

[Suicane75]

These uniforms are atrocious.

[cuervo72]

I actually like the gold jerseys and have always liked the Titans light blues. The JAX helmet is still ridiculous though, and monochrome sucks balls. And they have GOT to do something about the effing sweat boxes.

[digamma]

The blue on blue makes them look like Smurfs.

I don't mind the gold. I think they'd look good with white pants.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was thinking about Classic Sports (and then ESPN Classic (https://espn.go.com/tvlistings/networks/classic.html)) the other day. Loved that - but then I always liked doing things like going through old Encyclopedia Year Books. I never watch ESPN News. I think I'd at least spend some time watching CSN. I know I would spend more time watching NFLN if they covered more of the old NFL Films stuff (what I do watch from them - outside of games - is typically A Football Life).

I bought quite a bit of both News and Classic once upon a time. News exists on cume (the number of people who watch a little bit) rather than rating (the number of people watching at a given moment). It's not great but at least it's something. The ratings for the two were usually pretty similar but Classic didn't even have the cume.

News largely exists so that ESPN has cheap spots (or free bonus spots) to give away to advertisers.

[cuervo72]

And a place for overflow programming too, I guess. Like when 4.5 hour SEC games are bumping whatever was supposed to come on next on ESPN proper. :D

Maybe I haven't looked at this too recently; going by my guide half their programming looks like tv versions of radio shows and rehashes of First Take. Not even news anymore.

[cuervo72]

Ok, wait - Classic DOES still exist in some form??

ESPN TV Listings - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/espntv/onair/index)

[bhlloy]

News is my go to for mindless daytime background noise when the alternative is around the horn or first take or any other of the asinine analyst shows they put on in the middle of the day. If I'm not really watching it I can usually get a few rotations of the same news stories before I have to put something else on

[Abe Sargent]

My Jags win baby

[Suicane75]

The blue on blue makes them look like Smurfs.

I don't mind the gold. I think they'd look good with white pants.

That was gold? They looked like the Arizona Wranglers, though somehow not nearly as good.

[Thomkal]

it might be about to come crashing down on Jameis Winston:

Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback Jameis Winston threatens to sue CNN over documentary (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14183108/tampa-bay-buccaneers-quarterback-jameis-winston-threatens-sue-cnn-documentary)

[Thomkal]

Speaking of all over:

Colin Kaepernick of San Francisco 49ers placed on season-ending IR (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14185127/colin-kaepernick-san-francisco-49ers-placed-season-ending-ir)

[Marmel]

it might be about to come crashing down on Jameis Winston:

Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback Jameis Winston threatens to sue CNN over documentary (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14183108/tampa-bay-buccaneers-quarterback-jameis-winston-threatens-sue-cnn-documentary)

He has nothing to worry about. the NFL is A-OK with rapists, child abusers, woman beaters and probably even murderers playing in their league.

[Dutch]

it might be about to come crashing down on Jameis Winston:

Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback Jameis Winston threatens to sue CNN over documentary (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14183108/tampa-bay-buccaneers-quarterback-jameis-winston-threatens-sue-cnn-documentary)


"The Hunting Ground" received positive reviews after its Sundance premiere but since has been the target of criticism by some for being unfair. The letter from Winston's lawyer states that the documentary omits some exculpatory evidence and "manipulates, misstates or simply omits facts to present a false narrative." The letter also points to emails from one of the film's producers in which she said she was "in the corner of advocacy for victims" and therefore did not see a "need to get the perpetrator's side," as she was not a journalist.

Ugh...

[Thomkal]

Ravens getting decimated with injuries-Forsett hurt and Flacco has torn his knee-season ending injury.

[Thomkal]

14 teams have used backup QB's this season.

[EagleFan]

I seriously detest this Eagles team.

[Radii]

10-0! It was great to see a truly dominating performance as well.

[MizzouRah]

What's worse, Rams offense or Missouri's?

[JPhillips]

What's worse, Rams offense or Missouri's?

Ohio State's?

[NobodyHere]

Nice to see the Lions get back to back wins.

[Sweed]

What's worse, Rams offense or Missouri's?

I have redzone and as a Rams fan I have to say it is almost useless. Their offense is so putrid they're never in the redzone. Their defense is so good their opponent is rarely in the redzone. End result is I'm lucky (or unlucky depending on your view) to see 10 minutes of one of their games.

[rowech]

This is a really long week 10 this season.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Blaine Gabbert is looking surprisingly good against the Seahawks. I can't believe I typed that.

[MizzouRah]

Ohio State's?

Well played.. lol

[MizzouRah]

I have redzone and as a Rams fan I have to say it is almost useless. Their offense is so putrid they're never in the redzone. Their defense is so good their opponent is rarely in the redzone. End result is I'm lucky (or unlucky depending on your view) to see 10 minutes of one of their games.

Turnovers killed us today.. but I think we need to stick with Foles. But yeah.. not much on RZ for the Rams. :lol:

[Julio Riddols]

I don't just direct this to you but to everyone. When exactly was the ESPN heyday? I can remember the days of George Grande and Tom Mees and people have been bitching about ESPN for most of that time.

I feel like the late 80's to mid 90's were the best time in my memory. Sportscenter had highlights, tons of them. They still showed stuff like swamp buggy racing. I feel like I remember a time when they showed putt putt golf. I enjoyed the variety, the fact that they weren't spending their whole day spouting the same bullshit from different mouths about the latest controversy or the latest big story. Now it's all just a bunch of the same thing in slightly different packages.

I know I am probably in the minority and the masses probably eat that stupid stuff up, but I used to leave it on ESPN all day unless MST3K was on comedy central.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think that it was right around the end of the 90's that ESPN jumped the shark. It definitely happened while I was in college.

[JPhillips]

This is starting to look like a bad Bengals second half. Penalties, blown assignments, high throws.

edit: Here come the prime time Bengals.

[Butter]

42-14 Cardinals final score?

[JPhillips]

I think it's time to move on from football season. The Bengals just show nothing to make me think they'll be any different than years past.

[Butter]

The Bengals will lose this game, but Good Lord the Cardinals corners are whining after every pass to the wide outs for an offensive pass interference flag.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Remember that Arizona is really, really good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I feel like I remember a time when they showed putt putt golf.

You remember correctly.

[rowech]

One of the most clearly biased officiated games I've ever seen. Right from the start and they finished it off with some bullshit call as well.

[Julio Riddols]

It was a good game, the Bengals showed their resolve and played their asses off, but there isn't much you can do to stop Palmer when he is making good throws. He was outstanding through the 3rd quarter. Really liked what I saw from Dalton, really wished they had just tried to convert the 3rd and short there instead of going for it all on that play. Left too much time on the clock.

[Butter]

Yeah, I thought they would hand to Bernard and either get the first down or run the clock down to about twenty seconds and try the FG. I didn't like that call.

[rowech]

Yeah, I thought they would hand to Bernard and either get the first down or run the clock down to about twenty seconds and try the FG. I didn't like that call.

That's what a real coach would have done. I just don't understand Marvin Lewis at all. He coaches so haphazardly as if nothing bad can happen or if the other team will always play it like he hopes they will.

[PilotMan]

Just dropping in to make sure everyone knows that the Bengals lost. That's all.:devil:

[Thomkal]

Just dropping in to make sure everyone knows that the Bengals lost. That's all.:devil:

I second that :) what a win for my beloved Cards especially with how badly Carson looked in the first quarter-those INT's were very bad-receivers never had a chance of catching them. But he settled down after that, and showed that speed kills-might have the two faster WR's in the league and they embrace that. Chris Johnson used to be the fastest RB too. I saw Patrick Peterson was injured in the game-ankle-didn't look too bad, but if he's out for any length of time, the Bengals showed what will happen.

[BillJasper]

Fun to watch an athlete that doesn't know when to let go.

Peyton Manning is absolutely determined to get healthy and to play | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/22/peyton-manning-is-absolutely-determined-to-get-healthy-and-to-play/)

[henry296]

That's what a real coach would have done. I just don't understand Marvin Lewis at all. He coaches so haphazardly as if nothing bad can happen or if the other team will always play it like he hopes they will.

From everything I read, that was Andy Dalton's decision at the line of scrimmage. The play called in the huddle was either a run or pass based on the defense.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Crazy season for the Chiefs. Started 1-5, have won four straight. Through the first nine games, they have the toughest schedule in the NFL, yet managed a 4-5 record. In the last seven games (including yesterday's game), they have the easiest schedule in the NFL. Couple that with the fact that a Buffalo loss tonight would put them in control of their own destiny, and I'm starting to get a bit excited.

Whether the Chiefs make the playoffs or not, the Charles injury has allowed them to find a couple of gems on the depth chart at the RB position. I think they're also less predictable without Charles in the backfield. Still want him back in the lineup though. :)

[albionmoonlight]

Whether the Chiefs make the playoffs or not, the Charles injury has allowed them to find a couple of gems on the depth chart at the RB position. I think they're also less predictable without Charles in the backfield. Still want him back in the lineup though. :)

Football is weird. When Charles went down, Robert Mayes on the Grantland podcast went over some numbers that showed that Charles, when healthy, put up some of the best RB numbers of all time on a per-carry basis. He was, by any measure, the most talented player on the Chiefs' offense.

And the team does not miss a beat without him.

What other sport can you lose one of the best players on the team to injury and not have it affect whether you win games?

[flere-imsaho]

What other sport can you lose one of the best players on the team to injury and not have it affect whether you win games?

Barcelona's done pretty well without Messi this season.

[Butter]

Just dropping in to make sure everyone knows that the Bengals lost. That's all.:devil:

Finding it hard to see what any of the Bengal fans have done on here to get taunted for. The group on here is fairly doom and gloom and respectful as far as I've seen. If you would like to taunt the actual asshole Bengal fans, there are plenty of message boards they hang out on that you can frequent.

Or if this makes you feel good or superior, feel free to keep it up. Whatever works for you, I guess.

[Arles]

Barcelona's done pretty well without Messi this season.
I think Neymar and Suarez have a lot to do with their success too :D Not to mention Real and Barcelona have salaries in the 200 mil range while no other team is over 80. Messi going out is akin to Ohio State when it lost it's QB last year. They have such an advantage at every position over most competitors, one player will rairly completely derail their season.

That's a lot tougher to do in a league with a hard salary cap. KC has been pretty impressive this season - esp given their entire offense was built around Charles.

[NobodyHere]

The AFC South now has as many wins as the NFC East

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'm thinking the AFC South might actually be a bit underrated.

[Suicane75]

I'm not out on Chip Kelly yet. I think he's moving in the right direction, but he has to get a franchise QB, and Bradford isn't it.

[Dutch]

I'm not out on Chip Kelly yet. I think he's moving in the right direction, but he has to get a franchise QB, and Bradford isn't it.

Colin Kaepernick.

[EagleFan]

I'm not out on Chip Kelly yet. I think he's moving in the right direction, but he has to get a franchise QB, and Bradford isn't it.

Paxton Lynch

[Dutch]

Paxton Lynch

Is he a 1st round prospect?

[Abe Sargent]

This is a really long week 10 this season.


Considering how rarely we post in these threads these dys, we might as well have a generic thread for Week X, and then edit the title each weel tp be current

[Atocep]

Tom Brady's "Rex Ryan" audible for a handoff up the middle is the best thing I've seen this year.

[EagleFan]

Is he a 1st round prospect?

Top QB prospect. He is going to be the real deal. Have been watching him for a couple years, hoping the Eagles can find a way to get him.

[PilotMan]

Finding it hard to see what any of the Bengal fans have done on here to get taunted for. The group on here is fairly doom and gloom and respectful as far as I've seen. If you would like to taunt the actual asshole Bengal fans, there are plenty of message boards they hang out on that you can frequent.

Or if this makes you feel good or superior, feel free to keep it up. Whatever works for you, I guess.

Dude, it's not personal. I'm a Steeler fan living in Cincinnati. I hate the Bengals. It's pretty fucking cut and dried.

[claphamsa]

Dude, it's not personal. I'm a Steeler fan living in Cincinnati. I hate the Bengals. It's pretty fucking cut and dried.

we shall forgive you due to your blog! #whodey

[Galaril]

Fun to watch an athlete that doesn't know when to let go.

Peyton Manning is absolutely determined to get healthy and to play | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/22/peyton-manning-is-absolutely-determined-to-get-healthy-and-to-play/)

So the word here in town is that Mannings CAA agent firm leaked this and is not a shock he wants to play next year.

[MrBug708]

So the refs just blew that play badly

[EagleFan]

WTF was that?

[EagleFan]

Did they bring back the replacement refs for that play?

[SirFozzie]

I think the refs applied a create a rule situation to cover up the screw-up

[Logan]

Seems like the type of mistake that pops up by refs trained to be overprotective of QBs. Brady's body language was that he was giving up on the play, and my guess is the ref blew the whistle so he wouldn't get drilled before getting OOB.

[Dutch]

Seems like the type of mistake that pops up by refs trained to be overprotective of QBs. Brady's body language was that he was giving up on the play, and my guess is the ref blew the whistle so he wouldn't get drilled before getting OOB.

I think the dude blew the whistle AT Rex Ryan...total distraction mistake? Just guessing.

[Galaril]

Wow I am really surprised how well the Bills have been able to run on the Patriots who are the #2 run defense?

[Logan]

Lot of underthrown balls tonight.

[Galaril]

And there are the Bills I remember .

[bhlloy]

Given the number of penalties that end up in negative plays and fumbles, I wonder at what point it's better just to fair catch any punt that isn't inside your own ten yard line...

[SirFozzie]

Heeeere we go again.. (Bills have headset issues)

Has anyone you know, tested the Bills equipment? They seem to fail everywhere (london, Buffalo, New England)

[kingfc22]

This officiating crew is AWFUL

[kingfc22]

And why is Taylor out there still? He's clearly injured.

[EagleFan]

How do they rule that in bounds? HE wasn't touched and rolled out of bounds with 2 seconds left.

[SirFozzie]

The Pats got a gift win here, the Bills should have been a LOT more urgent starting with 5:00 to play down 10. They were running the clock down to 4:21 with :01 on the play clock. We found out how much losing Edelman (and then Dobson and Amadola) costs the Pats offense. (A lot)

[EagleFan]

This crew had no clue at all tonight.

[BishopMVP]

This officiating crew is AWFULGenerally Steratore and his crew are pretty good. Even good refs have bad nights.

Btw, this game was over when the Bills chose to punt it on 4th & 2 at midfield down 10 with like 8 minutes left. Rex Ryan can talk all he wants, that's a spot as a road underdog you have to actually play aggressive.

[SirFozzie]

I'm wondering if they said clock continued to run because he was going backwards out of bounds? (clock runs in that case)

[TroyF]

This has been far and away the worst reffing this league has ever seen. The officiating is beyond horrible. Yesterday, in the Broncos/Bears game, Osweiler slid and was hit by two Bears. Instead of the automatic 15 yard penalty, nothing was called. That single play led to the Bears coming back.

Then we have this catch that is somehow ruled in bounds with two seconds left, which eliminated a hail mary attempt by the Bills. That call is INEXCUSABLE. The ref on that sideline has no business reffing an NFL game. That's simply horrible officiating. The NFL had better get this figured out before they blow a Super Bowl.

[TroyF]

I'm wondering if they said clock continued to run because he was going backwards out of bounds? (clock runs in that case)


WHAT? Ummm, no. You can run sideways, leftways, rightways, crawl, roll, do the snake. . . anything you want to get out of bounds before you are touched. He wasn't touched. That's out of bounds and the Bills ball.

[EagleFan]

I'm wondering if they said clock continued to run because he was going backwards out of bounds? (clock runs in that case)

That's if going backwards while being contacted; a player can go backwards out of bounds on their own and the clock should stop and the ball is marked where they went out, not forward progress.

[EagleFan]

This has been far and away the worst reffing this league has ever seen. The officiating is beyond horrible. Yesterday, in the Broncos/Bears game, Osweiler slid and was hit by two Bears. Instead of the automatic 15 yard penalty, nothing was called. That single play led to the Bears coming back.

Then we have this catch that is somehow ruled in bounds with two seconds left, which eliminated a hail mary attempt by the Bills. That call is INEXCUSABLE. The ref on that sideline has no business reffing an NFL game. That's simply horrible officiating. The NFL had better get this figured out before they blow a Super Bowl.

Very bad officiating. I know it was only preventing a very small percentage play but this wasn't even a matter of "judgement" it should have been rules 101. It's not a college game where being down is being down regardless of being touched.

[TroyF]

That's if going backwards while being contacted; a player can go backwards out of bounds on their own and the clock should stop and the ball is marked where they went out, not forward progress.


Exactly. That was just a horrible call.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah, I was just throwing a theory out there that seemed to be only explanation.

Bills are tough. The good thing though is the division is definitely secure (5 games up, 6 to play), so we can spend the next few weeks getting healthy/set for playoffs.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Not that the Bills should have to argue it, but they just seemed ready to leave after that last play. How come Watkins and Ryan and pretty much anyone else with a Buffalo Bills logo on their clothing didn't insist that Watkins was out of bounds? It's like they didn't even care.

[jbergey22]

Bills covered the spread so they were happy with ending it where it was.

[stevew]

Given the number of penalties that end up in negative plays and fumbles, I wonder at what point it's better just to fair catch any punt that isn't inside your own ten yard line...

Yeah, this is always my thought. There's maybe a window from my 20 to my 35 where I'd consider a return but elsewhere it really makes little sense

[SirFozzie]

The official word:

Steratore told a pool reporter after the game that the judgment was made that Watkins gave himself up on the play, which is why the clock ran and the play couldn't be reviewed.

[Dutch]

I figured it was because the forward progress was further down field then where he fell out of bounds...and he was inbounds at the point of forward progress...but I guess that explanation has the same result.

[Dutch]

Not that the Bills should have to argue it, but they just seemed ready to leave after that last play. How come Watkins and Ryan and pretty much anyone else with a Buffalo Bills logo on their clothing didn't insist that Watkins was out of bounds? It's like they didn't even care.

I really, truly don't believe anybody would not care in that situation, but I bet they resigned themselves to the fact that their QB wasn't leaving the game and was incapable of throwing it 50 yards for a Hail Mary.

Ryan may have left Taylor in the game on Taylor's decision...which doomed them on that last drive since he was hurt...but in the heat of the moment, I can see Ryan respecting Taylor for toughing it out and that could have long-term benefit for the QB.

Sammy Watkins though....he looked frustrated beyond belief all night and I don't see him lasting with the Bills at this point. He doesn't seem like a good fit for that system.

[Logan]

The official word:

Steratore told a pool reporter after the game that the judgment was made that Watkins gave himself up on the play, which is why the clock ran and the play couldn't be reviewed.

Full "explanation":

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUjrKckUAAAxg09.jpg

Pretty sure that was the same guy who had just missed a Bills' player knee being down before he got up to gain another foot or so, and also instructed the sticks to be moved when said wrong spot seemed to be a solid half yard from the first down line.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The pool report states that the runner gave himself up after catching the pass at the sideline. Really? That makes bad even worse.</p>&mdash; Mike Pereira (@MikePereira) <a href="https://twitter.com/MikePereira/status/669048747716911105">November 24, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Logan]

Re: final play, I just saw this on Twitter in response to Steratore's comments...

Where to begin?

This could not possibly be “down by contact” without any defensive contact, rather it is a “declared dead ball” in the absence of a down-by-contact, out-of-bounds, incomplete-pass or other similar ruling.

The surrender technique is when a player essentially gives up on the play — either by taking a knee or remaining on the ground without any effort to advance. In referee’s parlance, an “advance” can be backward, particularly in a sideline play where lateral yardage is gained just as much as goal-ward yardage. As long as the runner is voluntarily ceding territory in the advance, his forward progress spot moves back with him. If the position of the ball is moving, there is no way that the runner has given up an opportunity to advance. He is retreating, not surrendering.

A surrendered player is also not subject to be tackled, but a player heading for the sideline must be touched down or contacted, whichever is appropriate, in order to keep the ball in bounds. A player pushed backwards out of bounds may also be ruled “in bounds” if the forward progress spot is in the field of play.

While replay can intervene in a clock operator error (if the error is more than two seconds at the expiration of the half and many other caveats), there is no review to rule the ball dead at :02 when Watkins goes out of bounds. Since the signal is to wind the clock, the clock operator did not make an error. If the side judge determined that Watkins should be ruled out of bounds, and if he noted there was time remaining on the clock, the two officials could add the time back in a conference. Also, if the side judge and head linesman had conflicting signals, and the stoppage wins out in conference, it appears the rule will allow the stop signal to be reviewed.

The explanation of this play, though, has made the error worse, because it is not rooted in an applicable rule or sensible in any semblance of basic football time-management strategy. It is a perversion of the rules to cover for Walker at best. It is a complete lack of reasoning or a misapplication of the rules at worst.

Either way, it erodes the confidence the fans and teams have in the crews’ abilities which damns the 2015 season as a lost cause for officiating.

Steratore crew defeated in Monday night game | Football Zebras (http://www.footballzebras.com/2015/11/24/13695/)

[Logan]

Manziel demoted to #3 QB for clubbing.

[BillJasper]

Manziel demoted to #3 QB for clubbing.

He might not have ever been any good in the NFL. But, the Browns have completely mishandled Manziel.

[MizzouRah]

He might not have ever been any good in the NFL. But, the Browns have completely mishandled Manziel.

Trading him for a practice squad QB would be a start.

[Dutch]

He might not have ever been any good in the NFL. But, the Browns have completely mishandled Manziel.

Manziel mishandled Manziel.

[mckerney]

Free-agent safety LaRon Landry suspended indefinitely by NFL (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14216769/free-agent-safety-laron-landry-suspended-indefinitely-nfl?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Free-agent safety LaRon Landry, who recently completed a 10-game suspension for a violation of the league's performance-enhancing drug policy, has been suspended indefinitely by the league, according to a source.

The reason for the suspension is not clear. Landry last played for the Indianapolis Colts during the 2014 season.

The reason for the suspension is not clear.
http://i.imgur.com/rr6CTNw.png

[mckerney]

I would have to assume that leave only the cream as the possible source of the suspension.

[Danny]

I dont even think he lifts

[PilotMan]

Reports: Rams WR Stedman Bailey Shot In The Head (UPDATES) (http://deadspin.com/reports-rams-wr-stedman-bailey-shot-in-the-head-1744564560?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

A Rams source confirmed to me that Stedman Bailey was involved in shooting incident & suffered a head wound. Not considered life-threatening

[Abe Sargent]

waiut what?