NFL Week 16

[Butter]

Bengals @ Denver Monday night in battle of the defenses, or which backup QB will screw the game up the least? Game will basically determine the 2nd bye in the AFC.

On a side note, Charles Woodson announced his retirement at end of the season.

As much as I hated him growing up as a young Buckeye fan, hats off to him. He had a great career and seems to be well-liked throughout the league. He will be missed.

[albionmoonlight]

Pats have a perverse incentive to lose to the Jets to try and keep the Steelers out of the playoffs.

[albionmoonlight]

dola

Not saying they will lose or try to lose. Just that if they did lose, then they make it more likley that Fitzpatrick makes the AFC playoffs over Roethlisberger

[rowech]

dola

Not saying they will lose or try to lose. Just that if they did lose, then they make it more likley that Fitzpatrick makes the AFC playoffs over Roethlisberger

Problem there would be they could lose home field that way.

[MIJB#19]

Problem there would be they could lose home field that way.The Patriots would also have to lose to the Dolphins to make that happen. :D

[rowech]

The Patriots would also have to lose to the Dolphins to make that happen. :D

Are you 100% on that? Bengals win out and Patriots lose to the Jets, they would finish tied and I think go to strength of victory tie break.

[digamma]

The Patriots would have a better record against common opponents, so you don't go to strength of victory.

[rowech]

The Patriots would have a better record against common opponents, so you don't go to strength of victory.

Aren't they both 3-1 against common opponents assuming Bengals beat Denver?

[Radii]

New England: W Pitt, W Bills, W Bills, L Broncos, W Texans

Cinci: W Bills, W Pitt, L Texans, L Pitt, ? Broncos

Pats would have the better common opponent record no matter what happens with Cinci vs Denver.

[rowech]

New England: W Pitt, W Bills, W Bills, L Broncos, W Texans

Cinci: W Bills, W Pitt, L Texans, L Pitt, ? Broncos

Pats would have the better common opponent record no matter what happens with Cinci vs Denver.

Was mixing the Texans. Thanks for clarification.

[Thomkal]

Of course you are talking about the Jets beating the Patriots, which never happens no matter the head coach

[NobodyHere]

Well some potential good news for the Redskins

Redskins: Judge rules censoring trademarks is unconstitutional - NFL - SI.com (http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/12/22/washington-redskins-name-controversy-censoring-trademarks-unconstitutional)

[Buccaneer]

My son and I have been discussing endlessly about where we would like the Pats to be seeded and who to root for (e.g., Bengals vs. Broncos). It's mostly centered around the Steelers. I think we got a consensus of taking a chance in playing the Steelers at home with the #1 seed...if healthy...knowing that the AFC championship will be played at home. Similarly, we have thoughts about how the Cardinals can avoid the Seahawks in the NFC.

[rowech]

My son and I have been discussing endlessly about where we would like the Pats to be seeded and who to root for (e.g., Bengals vs. Broncos). It's mostly centered around the Steelers. I think we got a consensus of taking a chance in playing the Steelers at home with the #1 seed...if healthy...knowing that the AFC championship will be played at home. Similarly, we have thoughts about how the Cardinals can avoid the Seahawks in the NFC.

For the last two weeks, I've started predicting a Steelers-Seahawks Super Bowl.

[Radii]

Similarly, we have thoughts about how the Cardinals can avoid the Seahawks in the NFC.

Staying the 2 seed is the answer here if you're a Cards fan if all you want to do is increase your odds of dodging Seattle for as long as possible. Beating them in the last week of the regular season in the hopes of knocking them down to the 6 seed instead of the 5 so that they have to go through Green Bay instead of the NFC East would help as well.

For the past few weeks now I've been doing the same as you as far as noodling out who to root for in order to give Carolina the best chance in the playoffs, and every dominant Seattle performance worries me more and more. Pending injuries in the final two weeks at least, it is really starting to feel inevitable that the Divisional Round of the playoffs will be Seattle @ Carolina, and I feel that the winner of that game is the most likely team to win the super bowl.

[JAG]

Of course you are talking about the Jets beating the Patriots, which never happens no matter the head coach

Pretty sure Rex Ryan's Jets beat them in the playoffs one year (when Welker held that 'foot' press conference).

[Thomkal]

Pretty sure Rex Ryan's Jets beat them in the playoffs one year (when Welker held that 'foot' press conference).

don't ruin my Jets "hatred" :)

[flere-imsaho]

IMO, trying to dodge a particular team in the playoffs should still never be prioritized over getting home field advantage.

[MIJB#19]

Was mixing the Texans. Thanks for clarification.Yup. I should have mentioned that to clarify.

[Radii]

IMO, trying to dodge a particular team in the playoffs should still never be prioritized over getting home field advantage.

Absolutely, its more of an exercise as a fan looking at all the possibilities for playoff seeding and what it might mean for playoff matchups, not that I actually think Arizona should not want home field b/c of a possible outcome.

[Galaril]

I wonder what is the historical number of teams with HFA that made it to the SB. It seems like lots of WC have made it recently except for last year or two ?

[Radii]

I wonder what is the historical number of teams with HFA that made it to the SB. It seems like lots of WC have made it recently except for last year or two ?

http://www.profootballhof.com/news/top-seeds/

23/40 in the NFC, 21/40 in the AFC post-merger.

Since the NFL went to 6 playoff teams in 1990, 11/25 in the AFC, 14/25 in the NFC.

[Galaril]

http://www.profootballhof.com/news/top-seeds/

23/40 in the NFC, 21/40 in the AFC post-merger.

Since the NFL went to 6 playoff teams in 1990, 11/25 in the AFC, 14/25 in the NFC.

Thanks so basically 50% over a long number of years. So HFA is an advantage but not one that good teams as can't overcome.

[BishopMVP]

Pats have a perverse incentive to lose to the Jets to try and keep the Steelers out of the playoffs.
IMO, trying to dodge a particular team in the playoffs should still never be prioritized over getting home field advantage.I'm with flere here... Just get the 1 seed and let it play out. As long as we're at home, Bengals/Broncos, Steelers/Chiefs, even Jets to Steelers are close enough that it's not worth even risking anything. (Now, if we could guarantee a matchup vs the AFC South champ...)
Of course you are talking about the Jets beating the Patriots, which never happens no matter the head coach
Unless Mark Sanchez is at Quarterback. I don't really understand that season either :confused:

[MIJB#19]

http://www.profootballhof.com/news/top-seeds/

23/40 in the NFC, 21/40 in the AFC post-merger.

Since the NFL went to 6 playoff teams in 1990, 11/25 in the AFC, 14/25 in the NFC.To add to this, some additional numbers:
In the playoffs, home teams have won 67% of the games since the start of the 12-team format (introduced in the 1989/1990 season).

But I prefer to ignore the old 6-division format, because the seeding was very different.

When we trim it down to the current 32-team system (introduction of 4 divisions per conference), home teams have won 60% of the games: 72-48. What jumps out in my research: in the NFL, the #5 seed on average has 1 win more than the #4 seed. To put into perspective: only 4 of the 26 #4 seeds had a better record than the #5 seeds, 5 times the records were equal, 17 times the visiting #5 had a better regular season record. Only 2 #6 seeds have had a better record than the #3 seeds, 4 times they had the same record, 20 times the #3 seed had a better record.

seed - avg # of wins
#1 - 13.2 wins (range 11 to 16)
#2 - 12.1 wins (range 10 to 14)
#3 - 10.9 wins (range 10 to 13)
#4 - 9.6 wins (range 7 to 12)
#5 10.6 wins (range 8 to 12)
#6 - 9.8 wins (range 8 to 11)

Sample size is small, but contrary to what you'd expect, the #6 seeds have won more wild card round games than the #5 seeds.
#4 vs #5: 16-10
#3 vs #6: 14-12

Unsurprisingly, in this same time period, the divisional round has featured 0 games where the visiting team had a better regular season record, while only 7 of 52 games had teams with an equal record. (So far, no wild card teams have had a better regular season record than the #2 seed, which is very hard to accomplish and makes it near impossible to begin with.)

The 26 conference finals have been played by equal teams 4 times and (unsurprisingly) only once the visitors had a better record (in 2008 NFC#6 9-6-1 Eagles visited NFC#4 9-7 Cardinals).

[Thomkal]

In case you missed it, Beckham had his appeal and lost it. Norman was fined a small amount (20k? 30k?) and is appealing. If what was said and done before the game is true (threatening Beckham with a bat, calling him homophobic names), Norman shouldn't be the only ones fined.

[oykib]

In case you missed it, Beckham had his appeal and lost it. Norman was fined a small amount (20k? 30k?) and is appealing. If what was said and done before the game is true (threatening Beckham with a bat, calling him homophobic names), Norman shouldn't be the only ones fined.

Beckham should take the NFL to court. What he did might be worth a suspension in a reasonable world. But stuff people have done just this year are worse, and those haven't gotten suspensions.

How does a judge look at essentially unpunished guys poking people in the eye or hitting people with helmets and uphold Beckham's suspension?

[Thomkal]

Beckham should take the NFL to court. What he did might be worth a suspension in a reasonable world. But stuff people have done just this year are worse, and those haven't gotten suspensions.

How does a judge look at essentially unpunished guys poking people in the eye or hitting people with helmets and uphold Beckham's suspension?

It was clear that Beckham was trying to injure Norman. Even on the touchdown late in the game he purposedly stepped on his ankle/foot trying to hurt him. He was fortunate none of them were season ending. He was a level above those you mentioned. He was completely out of control. Given the players union success rate in previous trials, it would not surprise me if they went to court just to suspend the suspension and let Beckham play this week, which would sicken me. I think ever since the Brady trial, the NFL is running a bit scared when it comes to discipline-only giving out fines so the Players Union won't challenge them.

[oykib]

It was clear that Beckham was trying to injure Norman. Even on the touchdown late in the game he purposedly stepped on his ankle/foot trying to hurt him. He was fortunate none of them were season ending. He was a level above those you mentioned. He was completely out of control. Given the players union success rate in previous trials, it would not surprise me if they went to court just to suspend the suspension and let Beckham play this week, which would sicken me. I think ever since the Brady trial, the NFL is running a bit scared when it comes to discipline-only giving out fines so the Players Union won't challenge them.

Worse than intentionally poking someone in the eye, or hitting someone with a helmet? Really?!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2359811.1442248815!/img/httpImage/pacman.gif
https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/JqGqtWG0xMaqxWY_zqVIxG7YrmA=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4244715/poke.0.gif
https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/odell-beckham-cheap-shot-on-josh-norman.gif?w=1000
Only one of those happened during game action. But it's the only one that's punished? They should all sit for multiple games after those infractions, or none of them should.

I'm not saying it's not worth a suspension. I'm saying that a suspension defies any standard of precedent.

[rowech]

Worse than intentionally poking someone in the eye, or hitting someone with a helmet? Really?!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2359811.1442248815!/img/httpImage/pacman.gif
https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/JqGqtWG0xMaqxWY_zqVIxG7YrmA=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4244715/poke.0.gif
https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/odell-beckham-cheap-shot-on-josh-norman.gif?w=1000
Only one of those happened during game action. But it's the only one that's punished? They should all sit for multiple games after those infractions, or none of them should.

I'm not saying it's not worth a suspension. I'm saying that a suspension defies any standard of precedent.

Make sure to show the lead up to Jones against the Raiders. Wasn't Miller suspended for his? In addition, I believe a lot of Beckham's is the fact he kept accumulating throughout the game and that hit was the one that was the final one in a string of one game.

[sabotai]

Even on the touchdown late in the game he purposedly stepped on his ankle/foot trying to hurt him.

On this play? Odell Beckham Jr. TD & Allen Iverson Stepover on Josh Norman! | Panthers vs. Giants | NFL - YouTube (https://youtu.be/vpOauh85wUY)

[Thomkal]

On this play? Odell Beckham Jr. TD & Allen Iverson Stepover on Josh Norman! | Panthers vs. Giants | NFL - YouTube (https://youtu.be/vpOauh85wUY)

well I thought it was that play, but looked like he stepped over Norman. They way he was marching around, it had looked like he stomped on him originally.

[Julio Riddols]

I think Beckham initially was going to stomp on Norman on that TD, but had a last second conscience tug that pushed him to refrain.

[NobodyHere]

Make sure to show the lead up to Jones against the Raiders. Wasn't Miller suspended for his? In addition, I believe a lot of Beckham's is the fact he kept accumulating throughout the game and that hit was the one that was the final one in a string of one game.

It was Talib that got suspended for the eye poke.

[stevew]

Drew Brees is injured and questionable. The Saints are 5-9. Common sense suggests giving Grayson a look for a couple games, but if there's a stat to be padded, Drew is there.

[Thomkal]

Browns players arrested on Christmas day following traffic stop - SBNation.com (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/12/26/10667338/cleveland-browns-players-arrested-christmas-armonty-bryant-deante-saunders-nfl)

[Suicane75]

At this point would Browns fans just wish that they hadn't come back at all? It's like a zombie movie where Grandpa comes back from the dead but he spends his time eating maggots and trying to kill you instead of playing canasta and telling grand old stories.

[sabotai]

Let's go Eagles (for just this week)!

[QuikSand]

are we hearing Peyton Manning HGH rumors?

[Thomkal]

This should make someone (s) here happy:

Niners promote Jarryd Hayne to active roster - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000609203/article/niners-promote-jarryd-hayne-to-active-roster)

[Thomkal]

are we hearing Peyton Manning HGH rumors?


where?

[QuikSand]

On phone/twitter, one sec (I'm at poker table)

[QuikSand]

Explosive Documentary Links Peyton Manning, Major Athletes To Doping Ring (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067)

[stevew]

Whoa.

James Harrison too.

[sabotai]

LOL Cousins...

[Radii]

LOL Cousins...

That was a pretty hilarious brain fart right there.

[cuervo72]

That whole sequence was hilarious.

[miami_fan]

Explosive Documentary Links Peyton Manning, Major Athletes To Doping Ring (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067)

Eh Andy Pet... I mean... Peyton Manning probably only did it one time coming back from injury.

[stevew]

This needs broken out into its own thread

[BillJasper]

Explosive Documentary Links Peyton Manning, Major Athletes To Doping Ring (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067)

It wasn't banned by the NFL until 2011 according to the article, which is when it places Manning getting treatments.

[molson]

HGH was banned then, but they didn't test for it until more recently. Rodney Harrison got suspended for HGH in 2007. He admitted using to the commissioner.

[BillJasper]

HGH was banned then, but they didn't test for it until more recently. Rodney Harrison got suspended for HGH in 2007. He admitted using to the commissioner.

Okay. Misunderstanding on my part then.

Be a shame for a Hall of Fame career to end this way.

[BishopMVP]

It wasn't banned by the NFL until 2011 according to the article, which is when it places Manning getting treatments.Hahaha, CAN'T WAIT until people start trying to justify things like this (IF true/corroborated). Peyton Manning should 100% be doing "HGH", and if anything when I saw it was Peyton, Ryan Howard, Ryan Zimmerman, Mike Tyson etc named I thought it might be a false flag operation...

It's just a very weird place because "steroids" like the East Germans gave their athletes were clearly terrible long term, but these drugs don't have those side effects as far as we know, and could potentially really benefit society as a whole. (Just like Tommy John and ACL injuries etc have shortened recovery times for the hoi polloi). And not only are these drugs potentially beneficial, but nobody knows how to test for them period. "Designer" drugs or whatever you want to call them don't put a marker in your system, they just raise certain testable things above measurable benchmarks, but there's never any proof, just confidence intervals and suspicion.

Where do people want to go with this? 99% of people have testosterone levels (or whatever) below a certain threshold, but 99% of people aren't in the NFL... You gonna tell a player he's doing "steroids" because his white blood cell count or his O2 level is out of the normal distribution?

tl;dr Fuck Peyton Manning, give me what Tom Brady is taking.

[EagleFan]

Okay, it is time to move past the chip Kelly experiment. I am so over this. He is so out of his depth.

Go Seahawks!

[albionmoonlight]

Okay, it is time to move past the chip Kelly experiment. I am so over this. He is so out of his depth.

Go Seahawks!

My football fan friends who are fans of non-Eagles teams have a general sense of "maybe the Kelly thing isn't working, but he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt."

All my friends who are huge Eagles fans and really follow the team all agree 100% that they hate Kelly and HE MUST GO.

No matter how good the media gets at getting us insider views of teams, there is still no substitute for being a fan and just watching the team week after week.

[Thomkal]

Let's go beloved Cardinals! Have to see how badly the Matthieu injury hurts the defense, but hopefully they still have enough to win today and clinch the #2 seed in the playoffs.

[Logan]

I still am trying to understand what the hell happened at the end of the first half last night. Cousins was 100% trying to do the same thing on the earlier play before the Eagles took a timeout. There couldn't have been an actual play call sent in because that would mean Cousins overruled that. So the call was to spike it with 6 seconds left? They're that concerned about leaving 2 or 3 seconds left on the clock at the end of the half?

[EagleFan]

Explosive Documentary Links Peyton Manning, Major Athletes To Doping Ring (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067)

Not a reliable source. Have already heard that the reporter was paid based on the "value" of the names in his report. May want to wait this one out for something credible before casting judgment.

[EagleFan]

I still am trying to understand what the hell happened at the end of the first half last night. Cousins was 100% trying to do the same thing on the earlier play before the Eagles took a timeout. There couldn't have been an actual play call sent in because that would mean Cousins overruled that. So the call was to spike it with 6 seconds left? They're that concerned about leaving 2 or 3 seconds left on the clock at the end of the half?

That was the strangest six seconds of football I have seen in a while.

[cuervo72]

All my friends who are huge Eagles fans and really follow the team all agree 100% that they hate Kelly and HE MUST GO.

Most of mine are like that too. I'm more on the fence; the team scored 474 points last season. Somehow didn't make the playoffs, but that was their franchise high. This year hasn't been nearly as good, while the defense has been even worse. But I'd say give him another year.

[MIJB#19]

Quite the anti-climax in the NFC East. About a week ago we were still talking about a possible four-way tie and now the division champion is crowned before the week 16 Sunday games.

Edit: for non-Redskins fans that is.

[Eaglesfan27]

Most of mine are like that too. I'm more on the fence; the team scored 474 points last season. Somehow didn't make the playoffs, but that was their franchise high. This year hasn't been nearly as good, while the defense has been even worse. But I'd say give him another year.

I am with you. I think he deserves one more year, but he must bring in a mobile QB and get more offensive production next year.

[Carman Bulldog]

Explosive Documentary Links Peyton Manning, Major Athletes To Doping Ring (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067)

Seems like I broke this story seven weeks ago (post here (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=3064156&postcount=51)) but I'll post it again for those too lazy to click the link.

Peyton Manning over the past three seasons...

Prior to NFL HGH testing...
20 games, 555/817, 67.9%, 6770 yards, 12.2 ypc, 67 td, 13 int

Since HGH testing implemented...
20 games, 478/741, 64.5%' 5579 yards, 11.67 ypc, 36 td, 25 int

His career season at age 37 coming one year removed from neck surgery is starting to make a lot more sense. Especially knowing that Peyton had stem cell therapy and the recovery and healing process is more effective with HGH.

[Solecismic]

Most of mine are like that too. I'm more on the fence; the team scored 474 points last season. Somehow didn't make the playoffs, but that was their franchise high. This year hasn't been nearly as good, while the defense has been even worse. But I'd say give him another year.

Which is a more relevant measure of an offense: points per offensive play or points per game? There are different ways to argue this.

The Eagles led the league in offensive plays run largely because of the pacing issue, and they also were close to the league lead in defensive plays. The same story this year (my numbers are only up to week 11). Play total ratios are not a reliable predictor of winning percentage (it's not terrible, but there are better ways).

However, as a strategy, hurry-up works nicely against some teams. I think they need a quarterback better suited to this offense (who knows, maybe even a run at RGIII) and a couple of players on defense.

[Abe Sargent]

When Revis intercepts Brady, all is right with the world!

[NobodyHere]

Nice to see Frank Gore revert to his 49ers form

[MizzouRah]

Brady might kill my FF Championship! :(

[Radii]

Good win for Atlanta, Julio Jones with a huge day and Carolina's offense was just out of sync. 14-1 but home field still isn't locked up quite yet.

[bhlloy]

Um... Why would you ever kick to start OT?

[Radii]

Watching the Pats screw up the coin toss and immediately lose in OT is beautiful.

[Thomkal]

boy lots of choking by playoff teams-hope it doesn't spread to the Cards today.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I have literally had a look of confusion on my face for the past 10 minutes about that Patriots coin toss debacle. There are at least three things about it that don't make any sense. I can't imagine how it happened, but it happened.

[NobodyHere]

If my understanding is correct, the Colts need the Bengals to lose tomorrow in order to keep their playoff hopes alive.

[bhlloy]

According to Slater that call came directly from Belichek and was double checked. So... he's either lying and calling out his coach who will cut his ass in a second, or Steelers fans are going to have an absolute meltdown

[jeff061]

Love Zolak sucking off Belickick on what a great call kicking off was. He may be the worst color guy in the NFL.

[Pumpy Tudors]

According to Slater that call came directly from Belichek and was double checked. So... he's either lying and calling out his coach who will cut his ass in a second, or Steelers fans are going to have an absolute meltdown
Belichick confirmed it. He said that he thought kicking was the "best thing to do." All right, then. So I saw Matthew Slater was confused after the ref said he elected to kick, but that's not where his confusion was. He was confused because he didn't realize that he couldn't choose to kick off AND choose which direction. The Patriots got what they intended to get. At least I'm not so confused anymore.

[jeff061]

I guess I don't understand why you would kickoff. What's the benefit, starting position if you stuff them?

Dumb.

[bhlloy]

I guess the logic is you stop them dead and then have a short field and have the FG to win it?

[NobodyHere]

If my understanding is correct, the Colts need the Bengals to lose tomorrow in order to keep their playoff hopes alive.

The graph and at the end of this link makes my head hurt.

Log In - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/27/upshot/nfl-playoff-picture-what-colts-fans-should-root-for.html)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Good on Belichick for trusting his defense, I guess, but that smells like the ol' college football "always pick defense first" thing. In a sense, it's great if you know how many points you need to win the game, but of course, that doesn't work at all if you give up the touchdown. Bill Belichick is the last person's mind I could ever read, but if that's what he was going for, I guess I get it. You just never see it in the NFL.

[Ben E Lou]

There was an incident I read about that happened in a sudden death game in the 60s or early 70s where a player said "we'll kick with the wind" or something along those lines on a very windy day. They intended to choose the side of the field, but instead said "we'll kick" first, and thus the other team got the ball, the wind, and iirc the story correctly, the win. I'll try to find that one.

[Pumpy Tudors]

The graph and at the end of this link makes my head hurt.

Log In - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/27/upshot/nfl-playoff-picture-what-colts-fans-should-root-for.html)
That graph is beautiful. When tiebreakers potentially come down to strength of victory, that is really the only way to cleanly visualize it.

[Ben E Lou]

Aha, actually he didn't cost them the game:

7 Biggest Gaffes in Sports History | Kizaz (http://kizaz.com/2013/08/22/7-biggest-gaffes-in-sports-history/)

[Thomkal]

boy lots of choking by playoff teams-hope it doesn't spread to the Cards today.


Looks like Seattle and GB have been infected with "Choke-itis" as well.

[ColtCrazy]

Kick first or not, the Steelers have no one to blame but themselves by getting beat by Mallett and the Ravens. No Pats conspiracy can hide that!

[Thomkal]

Kick first or not, the Steelers have no one to blame but themselves by getting beat by Mallett and the Ravens. No Pats conspiracy can hide that!

what a strange season for Mallett.

[Thomkal]

It was nice to see former Cards Tim Hightower back in the NFL after 3 years away due to injury.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Well, that 90 yard TD to Robinson probably just iced my loss in the Championship of my fantasy league. Unless David Johnson can get some serious garbage time points, I'm screwed.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't know why, but the Lyrica diabetic nerve pain commercials completely hypnotize my kids. They are playing in the front room ignoring football and other commercials. But the Lyrica commercials? Drop everything and pay 100% attention.

[stevew]

Green Bay is getting killed. Wow.

[Julio Riddols]

Arizona wants that 1 seed, man.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Isn't it time for the Packers to get Rodgers out of the game? They're down 38-8, he's getting hit damn near every time he drops back to pass, and the Packers still win the North if they beat Minnesota next week. For some reason, he's still in there. In my opinion, leaving him in the game is a more curious coaching decision than the Patriots kicking off to start overtime earlier.

[bhlloy]

Rodgers and Palmer both. If they put Palmer back out there with his injury history...

[Edward64]

what a strange season for Mallett.

Rooting for the AR boys - Mallett and McFadden. Both did well today and hopefully both can re-energize their careers.

[Thomkal]

woohoo beloved Cardinals! That was their best game all year, and I certainly didn't expect them to dominate the Packers. Now I'm kinda hoping to face them in the second round of the playoffs. Still can get the #1 seed too with a win and Carolina loss.

[stevew]

There was an incident I read about that happened in a sudden death game in the 60s or early 70s where a player said "we'll kick with the wind" or something along those lines on a very windy day. They intended to choose the side of the field, but instead said "we'll kick" first, and thus the other team got the ball, the wind, and iirc the story correctly, the win. I'll try to find that one.

Yes was also remembering this story.

[Suicane75]

Is it irrational that I want to murder, with my bare hands, everyone who does a fucking first down celebration?

[molson]

There was an incident I read about that happened in a sudden death game in the 60s or early 70s where a player said "we'll kick with the wind" or something along those lines on a very windy day. They intended to choose the side of the field, but instead said "we'll kick" first, and thus the other team got the ball, the wind, and iirc the story correctly, the win. I'll try to find that one.

Seems like a nuance a team captain should be aware of...

Of course the side of the field had nothing to do with the way the Jets stormed down the field in OT. The worse call for me was being ultra-conservative to end the first-half. That's just not the Bill Belichick I know and love.

[Kodos]

Not a reliable source. Have already heard that the reporter was paid based on the "value" of the names in his report. May want to wait this one out for something credible before casting judgment.

Yeah, having a hard time believing this. If true, extremely disappointing. But it doesn't fit anything we know about Manning.

Will wait for more definitive/reliable information to surface.

[Thomkal]

So I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:

Philadelphia Eagles: Jason Peters sits self out to avoid injury - NFL - SI.com (http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/12/27/philadelphia-eagles-jason-peters-sits-himself-injury-playoffs?xid=si_social)

there's also a link there about how Chip Kelly expects to stay with Philly.

[miami_fan]

So was Marty Mornhinweg was just relying on his defense as well?

[mckerney]

So was Marty Mornhinweg was just relying on his defense as well?

Deciding to kick off in overtime isn't as bad a decision now that the receiving team can't win it with a field goal.

Mike Zimmer let St. Louis have the ball to start off in overtime in the Vikings win over the Rams earlier this year, though they did it by chose which direction to go after winning the toss.

[NobodyHere]

Is it irrational that I want to murder, with my bare hands, everyone who does a fucking first down celebration?

Only if you're a muslim

[MIJB#19]

That graph is beautiful. When tiebreakers potentially come down to strength of victory, that is really the only way to cleanly visualize it.I can't see any graph, just some login page.
Regardless, if all the games go Indianapolis' way (Den over Cin, Mia over NE, Den over SD, Buf over NYJ, Bal over Cin, Atl over NO), we're looking at a situation where even strength of victory and strength of schedule can't break the tie.

[MIJB#19]

Kick first or not, the Steelers have no one to blame but themselves by getting beat by Mallett and the Ravens. No Pats conspiracy can hide that!Few people know that the New England Patriots once drafted and groomed Ryan Mallett with the sole purpose to someday have him end up on a nothing-to-play-for Ravens team to keep the Pittsburgh Steelers out of the playoffs.

[digamma]

There was an incident I read about that happened in a sudden death game in the 60s or early 70s where a player said "we'll kick with the wind" or something along those lines on a very windy day. They intended to choose the side of the field, but instead said "we'll kick" first, and thus the other team got the ball, the wind, and iirc the story correctly, the win. I'll try to find that one.

You must have had Strange But True Sports Stories too. :)

The quote may have been "we'll kick to the clock." (The clock being at the wind benefitting side of the stadium.

[Ben E Lou]

You must have had Strange But True Sports Stories too. :) When I was 5 or 6 and starting to read for entertainment, I lived in a house with two sports-obsessed teenage brothers and education-obsessed parents with a philosophy that anything that encourages kids/teens to read is a good thing. I can't even begin to tell you how many sports-related books we had running around in our house.

[Kodos]

Peyton Manning's response:

Manning 'disgusted' with Al Jazeera report - ESPN Video (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:14442375)

Tom Jackson comments:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:14442366

[SlyBelle1]

Kick first or not, the Steelers have no one to blame but themselves by getting beat by Mallett and the Ravens. No Pats conspiracy can hide that!

+1 ......always seems like Steelers play down to the competition/situation in recent years that end up costing them. However, I am sure Baltimore was also really pumped and it was their "Super Bowl" for at least this season to potentially knock their bitter rivals out of the playoffs.

Put these two together and we get the outcome that happened.....

[flere-imsaho]

Belichick confirmed it. He said that he thought kicking was the "best thing to do." All right, then. So I saw Matthew Slater was confused after the ref said he elected to kick, but that's not where his confusion was. He was confused because he didn't realize that he couldn't choose to kick off AND choose which direction. The Patriots got what they intended to get. At least I'm not so confused anymore.

Thanks for this. I was equally confused but your post cleared it up.

Is it irrational that I want to murder, with my bare hands, everyone who does a fucking first down celebration?

I can see it when converting a crucial 3rd or 4th down, but otherwise no, you're not irrational.

[Radii]

However, I am sure Baltimore was also really pumped and it was their "Super Bowl" for at least this season to potentially knock their bitter rivals out of the playoffs.

The real lesson here is that only good things can happen when you bench Jimmy Clausen.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Would love to see the Broncos piss down their leg tonight and enter next week with the possibility that they may not even make the playoffs.

[MikeVic]

Horribly disappointed in the Steelers. Should have expected a loss but was actually starting to believe in this team being good good (at least the offense).

[Thomkal]

Horribly disappointed in the Steelers. Should have expected a loss but was actually starting to believe in this team being good good (at least the offense).

Nobody to blame but themselves if they don't make the playoff-easiest schedule in last two games of playoff teams (Bal with 4th string QB Mallett and now Cleveland). As they were one of the two teams to beat the Cards this year, I'm hoping of course they do not make the playoffs. :)

[MIJB#19]

Nobody to blame but themselves if they don't make the playoff-easiest schedule in last two games of playoff teams (Bal with 4th string QB Mallett and now Cleveland). As they were one of the two teams to beat the Cards this year, I'm hoping of course they do not make the playoffs. :)What better opponent can Cardinals fans wish for in the Super Bowl than a chance to avenge Big Ben and the Steelers?

[Thomkal]

What better opponent can Cardinals fans wish for in the Super Bowl than a chance to avenge Big Ben and the Steelers?

They could lose to them again too...

[molson]

Deciding to kick off in overtime isn't as bad a decision now that the receiving team can't win it with a field goal.

Mike Zimmer let St. Louis have the ball to start off in overtime in the Vikings win over the Rams earlier this year, though they did it by chose which direction to go after winning the toss.

Bellichick has done it before too, and beat the Broncos in OT after choosing the wind, though it sounds like he explained it to the captains a little more clearly last time.

"To tell you the truth, the whole situation was a little bit confusing because, when I told the captains (to take the wind), there was a little bit of a question of, are you talking about deferring," Belichick said. "I was like, 'No, we're not deferring, we're taking the wind, period.'

Bill Belichick explains why Patriots took wind in OT win - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000287894/article/bill-belichick-explains-why-patriots-took-wind-in-ot-win)

[JPhillips]

Dammit. The Bengals dominated the first half and now only lead by four. Let's go, boys!

[Abe Sargent]

LEt's go Boys!

[stevew]

Horribly disappointed in the Steelers. Should have expected a loss but was actually starting to believe in this team being good good (at least the offense).

Classic Tomlin boner game. Probably nearly as bad as the Tebow game.

[JPhillips]

Shit. Bengals gonna Bengal.

[Abe Sargent]

OT baby!

[bhlloy]

You had one job

[Abe Sargent]

This game was supposed to be this major showdown between Andy Dalton and peyton manning based on early season results and such, but now it's the battle fo the backups. At least it made it to OT and has been okay. Ish.

[bhlloy]

I'm not sure why they had Osweiler fall 3 yards behind the line there. 45 yards isn't a gimme. Maybe you give up 3 yards inside the 20 but 43 yards out I'm still trying to get closer with the RB I trust the most to not cough it up

[kingfc22]

Glad to see a big, clean hit not get penalized for a change.

[bhlloy]

That was a piss poor effort to get back on that ball by McCarron

[rowech]

I'd say I don't believe they lost like that but I'd be lying. They have now lost to Denver in three of the most bizarre ways possible.

[NobodyHere]

The Colts are still alive!

[Abe Sargent]

I have a question for you all. What's the highest number of overtimes in a week? Because 3 this weekend has to be up there, right?

[Radii]

I have a question for you all. What's the highest number of overtimes in a week? Because 3 this weekend has to be up there, right?

1995 NFL Week 6 Leaders and Scores | Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1995/week_6.htm)

5 that week.

[stevew]

Where does Dwayne Bowe rate among the worst NFL free agent signings of all time? He has 5 catches all year.

[NobodyHere]

The Colts can win their division under the following scenario:

1) Win + HOU loss + CIN loss + DEN win + NYJ loss + NO loss + KC loss + MIA win + PIT win

Luck and Hasselbeck are hurt. Whitehurst was put on IR yesterday. So that leaves newly signed Stephen Morris as the only healthy QB on the team.

[Thomkal]

The Colts are still alive!

But can they do it without Hasselbeck (maybe) and Whitehurst (now on IR)? They clearly don't belong in the playoffs given how they have played, but due to a poor NFL talent level overall, they are somehow still alive. Good luck getting all the chips they need to fall to make it though.

[JPhillips]

AJ McCarron hurt his wrist on the last play and is getting an MRI today. Sounds like Wenning will start the last game and who knows who will start the playoff game.

Such a hopeful season going down the toilet at the end.

[Thomkal]

AJ McCarron hurt his wrist on the last play and is getting an MRI today. Sounds like Wenning will start the last game and who knows who will start the playoff game.

Such a hopeful season going down the toilet at the end.

I feel for you Bengals fans especially what Arizona went through this time last season. Hope AJ or Andy recover enough to make the playoffs.

[Butter]

It's his non-throwing wrist. Suck it up buttercup and get out there and play the last game. As long as the bye is in play, it's important.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in the loss, but that's two really tough road losses... last second FG loss to Arizona, the 2nd best team in the NFC, and an OT loss to Denver. The only "Bengals" loss they've had this year was the Monday night home game to Houston.

[Galaril]

Really the NFL needs to let teams expand the rosters to like 60 or even 65 players. The game is really hindered now with the injuries mounting especially at the end of the season and having what the Colts and looks like Bengals too have to do. College teams have a 100+ players on the field. Now of course I get that is easy when you aren't playing players.

[QuikSand]

Seriously, man...

Mike Pettine says of Johnny Manziel Christmas video: 'It's certainly a concern' | cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/mike_pettine_says_of_johnny_ma.html#incart_river_index)

[jeff061]

Drinking on Christmas Eve doesn't seem to be that big a deal to me. But how does he keep getting himself in these leaked video situations?

[stevew]

Really the NFL needs to let teams expand the rosters to like 60 or even 65 players. The game is really hindered now with the injuries mounting especially at the end of the season and having what the Colts and looks like Bengals too have to do. College teams have a 100+ players on the field. Now of course I get that is easy when you aren't playing players.

No way. It would seriously be worse than it is now cause teams would keep like 5-7 extra linemen(at least).

I do think 53 should be active on game day though.

[JPhillips]

Seriously, man...

Mike Pettine says of Johnny Manziel Christmas video: 'It's certainly a concern' | cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/mike_pettine_says_of_johnny_ma.html#incart_river_index)

I'm not sure if this is a real problem or if Manziel is just doing whatever he can to get out of Cleveland. He has to know that if he's released somebody is going to pick him up.

[molson]

I like that he's singing the same song in every leaked video. It does come off like intentional trolling.

[Julio Riddols]

It's his non-throwing wrist. Suck it up buttercup and get out there and play the last game. As long as the bye is in play, it's important.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in the loss, but that's two really tough road losses... last second FG loss to Arizona, the 2nd best team in the NFC, and an OT loss to Denver. The only "Bengals" loss they've had this year was the Monday night home game to Houston.

I have one problem with things from last night, and that is how conservative things got in the second half offensively. Between that and A.J. Green failing to run through his route on a deep ball that may have gone for 6, I'd say there were more missed opportunities than just the FG prior to halftime. That missed kick changed momentum, and from there the writing was on the wall once the Bengals came out timid offensively in the second half. When they let McCarron throw, the team moved the ball well against the top defense in the league. His decision making was sound, his ball placement was good, he was picking them apart. You don't go away from that and start trying to run laterally against a defense with that kind of speed, especially when your offensive line hasn't been shit all season when blocking the run.

It was a better performance, but it should have been a win. Gotta keep the foot on the gas and close it out when you have a chance to. We'll see how things play out in a couple weeks unless they luck into a bye.. Somehow I don't think the Ravens will make it easy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's his non-throwing wrist.

Could affect his handling of the ball, particularly on snaps.

Not that such a thing would/could matter in a game of course.

[stevew]

This weeks debacle vs the ravens was the Steelers 13th loss to a sub .500 team in the past 4 seasons. It would be nice if Tebow could return our soul.

[Butter]

Could affect his handling of the ball, particularly on snaps.

Not that such a thing would/could matter in a game of course.

Just a sprain, so he should be playing Sunday.

Agree, Julio. They kept saying that Denver had switched to zone, but they tried very few down field throws after halftime. Zone or not, the conservative switch hurt. That's the kind of great coaching we Bengal fans have come to expect.

[BillJasper]

Seriously, man...

Mike Pettine says of Johnny Manziel Christmas video: 'It's certainly a concern' | cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/mike_pettine_says_of_johnny_ma.html#incart_river_index)

Why does he care? He isn't going to have a job in six days.

[Solecismic]

The more I read about this Peyton Manning HGH story, the angrier I get at the state of journalism these days.

You couldn't convince that there's a single editor at Al Jazeera who took a journalism ethics class in his or her entire life. How in the world did that story make it to the air?

They should all be sentenced to reporting on Donald Trump for the rest of their lives. Maybe they could draw some cartoons about his kids.

[Logan]

Chip Kelly fired.

[bronconick]

Chip Kelly has been relieved of duties. He'll probably offer his nuts if he can coach the Titans with Mariota.

[Eaglesfan27]

Chip Kelly has been relieved of duties. He'll probably offer his nuts if he can coach the Titans with Mariota.

I just hope he ends up in Tennessee and not another college program.

[miami_fan]

I really don't understand this from the Eagles point of view, unnless this completely blew up behind the scenes. Right or wrong, they gave him personnel power and allowed him to jettison some real assets. To cut bait less than a year is surprising.

[dawgfan]

I just hope he ends up in Tennessee and not another college program.
Translation - I sure hope Miami isn't foolish enough to hire Mora and UCLA ends up hiring Chip.

;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just hope he ends up in Tennessee and not another college program.

Sits for a year perhaps?

[corbes]

I really don't understand this from the Eagles point of view, unnless this completely blew up behind the scenes. Right or wrong, they gave him personnel power and allowed him to jettison some real assets. To cut bait less than a year is surprising.

I have to assume there was something else going on behind the scenes. I don't think it was warranted (yet) from a strictly-performance standpoint.

[MrBug708]

Translation - I sure hope Miami isn't foolish enough to hire Mora and UCLA ends up hiring Chip.

;)

From your lips

I've heard rumors that he wouldnt coach in the PAC-12 as long as Helfrich is at Oregon. Plus I doubt UCLA is creative enough to make it happen even if all the dominos fell correctly

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Chip Kelly has been relieved of duties. He'll probably offer his nuts if he can coach the Titans with Mariota.

Meanwhile, Philly fans get to watch Andy Reid back in the playoffs for a 2nd time with the Chiefs.

What a mess in Philly.

[Eaglesfan27]

Translation - I sure hope Miami isn't foolish enough to hire Mora and UCLA ends up hiring Chip.

;)

I really don't think UCLA can afford Chip, but I would hate to see him lead Texas back to power. USC should have waited and gotten him.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola,

Also, I think there is very little chance Mora ends up in Miami. His agent is brilliant at manufacturing "interest."

[MrBug708]

Dola,

Also, I think there is very little chance Mora ends up in Miami. His agent is brilliant at manufacturing "interest."

The only interest I ever saw him manufacture was the Jets job last year and even Mora came out and said he didn't know he was interviewing

[Thomkal]

Chip Kelly fired.


And Christmas came a little late for Philly fans :) He was given complete control, and most of what he came up with failed miserably. He was in the weakest division in the NFL, and should have dominated it. He had the top rusher from last year and seemed to have no clue how to use him or his other RB's.. Yet he let the one RB who produced for him got to Buffalo. Bradford was not good for a good chunk of the season. I could go on and on. Ownership expected him to produce when he got control of the team, and he bombed. Tennessee will most likely be his next and last stop in the NFL.

[bhlloy]

I really don't understand this from the Eagles point of view, unnless this completely blew up behind the scenes. Right or wrong, they gave him personnel power and allowed him to jettison some real assets. To cut bait less than a year is surprising.

Was it ever going to get better though? Bradford is a middling QB who can't stay healthy and doesn't fit in the scheme. Murray was given a huge contract and really doesn't fit in the scheme. Matthews is fine but do you need to give that much to two RB in today's game? Alonso is decent middle linebacker which is an easy position to get value for.

I guess what's the point in giving him another year when his transactions were flat out bad and the two biggest moves he made didn't even fit the scheme he wants to run?

[EagleFan]

Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
:party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:
:funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance:

[EagleFan]

I don't understand what happened with Kelly. When given talented players he had a fun team to watch and really only needed to tweak it a little. Then he blows the team up and brings in players that don't even fit the system he is trying to run.

Add to that the little fact that he called games like he was still in college. If I see that stupid little pitch play from the shotgun again in my lifetime it will be too soon (the one that ended up as the season ending fumble-- he ran that several times that game and every time it resulted in negative yardage).

Not sure how long it will take to fix what he has destroyed with this team.

[Thomkal]

Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
:party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:
:funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance: :funkychickendance:

I take it you are happy with the firing? :)

[Thomkal]

Gus Bradley will be back next year in Jaksonville.

[BillJasper]

I really don't think UCLA can afford Chip, but I would hate to see him lead Texas back to power. USC should have waited and gotten him.

Texas A&M?

[EagleFan]

I take it you are happy with the firing? :)

What makes you think that.... :D

[miami_fan]

Was it ever going to get better though? Bradford is a middling QB who can't stay healthy and doesn't fit in the scheme. Murray was given a huge contract and really doesn't fit in the scheme. Matthews is fine but do you need to give that much to two RB in today's game? Alonso is decent middle linebacker which is an easy position to get value for.

I guess what's the point in giving him another year when his transactions were flat out bad and the two biggest moves he made didn't even fit the scheme he wants to run?

Is it unreasonable to expect someone to get better at a job he had never done before the more he did it? I don't know if he would or not but if Lurie honestly thought he could do the job, he gets more than one year. I don't think any coach should get the ultimate personnel control so I think it was a flawed decision from the start. However, hiring a guy to control your personnel and firing him about 12 months seems like a very Stephen Ross-ish type of move and I would not wish that on any fan base.

[bhlloy]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect somebody to not be so incompetent from the get go that they give tens of millions of dollars to players who don't even fit the scheme they want to run. I can understand why Lurie is furious and fired him

[jbergey22]

The Eagles were headed the wrong direction. His college style of coaching didnt fit in the NFL. If they were improving it would be a different story. They went from a playoff team to a bad team without any real hope for improvement in 3 years.

His coaching didnt bring that incredible offense to the NFL that some expected. He tried different pieces to fit the puzzle and it was just getting worse. Good time to move on before it becomes unrecoverable IMO.

[sabotai]

According to the rumor mill, Lurie wanted to revoke Kelly's GM responsibilities and Kelly balked at that so he was fired.

[dawgfan]

I really don't think UCLA can afford Chip, but I would hate to see him lead Texas back to power. USC should have waited and gotten him.
I get the feeling he'll do everything he can to stay in the NFL - he wasn't a fan of recruiting and dealing with boosters and all that, so I think Texas would be a terrible fit for him.

Have to think Tennessee takes a long hard look at bringing him in.

[jbergey22]

According to the rumor mill, Lurie wanted to revoke Kelly's GM responsibilities and Kelly balked at that so he was fired.

This will be good for Chip's gigantic ego. Thinking he could make Bradford into a pro bowl QB was both the height of his ego and ignorance all in one. Just nothing made sense about that move or signing both Mathews and Murray. He just has no clue how to build a winning NFL team. He needs to take a step back and re-evaluate.

[Carman Bulldog]

The more I read about this Peyton Manning HGH story, the angrier I get at the state of journalism these days.

You couldn't convince that there's a single editor at Al Jazeera who took a journalism ethics class in his or her entire life. How in the world did that story make it to the air?

They should all be sentenced to reporting on Donald Trump for the rest of their lives. Maybe they could draw some cartoons about his kids.

Have you actually watched the documentary? The allegation was that HGH was shipped to Manning's wife. A fact which to date no one has denied. One can also apparently only be prescribed HGH for one of three medical reasons, none of which one would likely go to an anti-aging clinic for.

Not to mention that the allegation was not any sort of editorializing by Al Jazeera but rather was a statement made on video by another individual. Al Jazeerea then confirmed that this individual worked at the clinic on the date in question. Can you explain how all of this equates to a lack of journalistic ethics?

[Abe Sargent]

Have you actually watched the documentary? The allegation was that HGH was shipped to Manning's wife. A fact which to date no one has denied. One can also apparently only be prescribed HGH for one of three medical reasons, none of which one would likely go to an anti-aging clinic for.

Not to mention that the allegation was not any sort of editorializing by Al Jazeera but rather was a statement made on video by another individual. Al Jazeerea then confirmed that this individual worked at the clinic on the date in question. Can you explain how all of this equates to a lack of journalistic ethics?

Yeah I don't see it either. I think the story was good to go.

[Solecismic]

Have you actually watched the documentary? The allegation was that HGH was shipped to Manning's wife. A fact which to date no one has denied. One can also apparently only be prescribed HGH for one of three medical reasons, none of which one would likely go to an anti-aging clinic for.

Not to mention that the allegation was not any sort of editorializing by Al Jazeera but rather was a statement made on video by another individual. Al Jazeerea then confirmed that this individual worked at the clinic on the date in question. Can you explain how all of this equates to a lack of journalistic ethics?

No. We don't get Al Jazeera. My reaction is based on this story from ESPN:

Documentary links Peyton Manning, other pro athletes to use of PEDs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds)

Also, this article which describes the use of the Manning jersey extensively in the piece:

We watched Al Jazeera's 'The Dark Side' implicating Peyton Manning. Here's our take - Mile High Report (http://www.milehighreport.com/2015/12/28/10670152/peyton-manning-hgh-al-jazeera-documentary-review)

I don't see anything to indicate how this report passed the smell test. That may be the state of journalism these days, but it's a sad one if it is. At best, there needed to be a lot of fact-checking on Sly and a lot less grandstanding and ominous posturing (sure, they're not direct accusations, but they amount to the same).

Right now, it looks like Sly may or may not have been an intern in the pharmacy at the time, and he may or may not have sent HGH to any real wives of NFL or MLB players. The story couldn't stand on its own, so Al Jazeera added the jerseys and the what-ifs to try and make the story themselves. That's not journalism.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's not journalism.

It's okay.

Al-Jihad isn't a real network either.

[BillJasper]

If I'm an NFL GM, I'm leery of hiring Chip Kelly. Whose to say he doesn't pull the same type of power play after a year or two in his next job?

[Eaglesfan27]

Texas A&M?

I think that is another big possibility. It is going to make me sick to my stomach if he ends up anywhere in college and Helton does not win big.

[Thomkal]

No. We don't get Al Jazeera. My reaction is based on this story from ESPN:

Documentary links Peyton Manning, other pro athletes to use of PEDs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds)

Also, this article which describes the use of the Manning jersey extensively in the piece:

We watched Al Jazeera's 'The Dark Side' implicating Peyton Manning. Here's our take - Mile High Report (http://www.milehighreport.com/2015/12/28/10670152/peyton-manning-hgh-al-jazeera-documentary-review)

I don't see anything to indicate how this report passed the smell test. That may be the state of journalism these days, but it's a sad one if it is. At best, there needed to be a lot of fact-checking on Sly and a lot less grandstanding and ominous posturing (sure, they're not direct accusations, but they amount to the same).

Right now, it looks like Sly may or may not have been an intern in the pharmacy at the time, and he may or may not have sent HGH to any real wives of NFL or MLB players. The story couldn't stand on its own, so Al Jazeera added the jerseys and the what-ifs to try and make the story themselves. That's not journalism.

I think that's why Al-Jazeera got the story. Only network that would have given this story a chance. Let's face it, they aren't known for their sports journalism. This story, for good or bad, brought attention to the network-I could see where that would be appealing to them, despite the dubiousness of the reporting.

[EagleFan]

It's okay.

Al-Jihad isn't a real network either.

+1

[MIJB#19]

Y'all make it sound like they're the CNN of the other side of the pond. :D

[QuikSand]

If I'm a fan of a team on the market for a new coach, I really want Kelly as coach-only. I follow both Cleveland and Miami to some degree... and I'd LOVE him for the Browns, and I'd be pretty happy with him in Miami as well.

[QuikSand]

Steve Smith has just pledged publicly he's targeting a comeback for 2016. (He had announced his retirement after 2015 before the season started, but after a bad injury there had been talk he didn't want to go out on a cart. I hope he can live up to his goal here, that's a tough injury to rehab from.)

[stevew]

Steve Smith has just pledged publicly he's targeting a comeback for 2016. (He had announced his retirement after 2015 before the season started, but after a bad injury there had been talk he didn't want to go out on a cart. I hope he can live up to his goal here, that's a tough injury to rehab from.)

Awesome


I also thought you wrote he was publicly targeting a cornerback the first time and was excited to see who he has beef with.

[stevew]

Really wonder wtf is wrong with SD that they'd both fine and IR Eric Weddle. Basically kicking his ass out the door. He should be a good signing this offseason.

[Carman Bulldog]

No. We don't get Al Jazeera. My reaction is based on this story from ESPN:

Documentary links Peyton Manning, other pro athletes to use of PEDs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds)

Also, this article which describes the use of the Manning jersey extensively in the piece:

We watched Al Jazeera's 'The Dark Side' implicating Peyton Manning. Here's our take - Mile High Report (http://www.milehighreport.com/2015/12/28/10670152/peyton-manning-hgh-al-jazeera-documentary-review)

I don't see anything to indicate how this report passed the smell test. That may be the state of journalism these days, but it's a sad one if it is. At best, there needed to be a lot of fact-checking on Sly and a lot less grandstanding and ominous posturing (sure, they're not direct accusations, but they amount to the same).



I don't get Al-Jazeera America either but the documentary has been publicly available on the internet since Sunday morning. I can't really say that I have ever watched or read any of their reports before but with that said, they appear to be fairly well decorated and have received an RFK Award for Excellence in Journalism, a News & Documentary Emmy Award and a pair of Peabody Awards, all in recent years.

Right now, it looks like Sly may or may not have been an intern in the pharmacy at the time, and he may or may not have sent HGH to any real wives of NFL or MLB players. The story couldn't stand on its own, so Al Jazeera added the jerseys and the what-ifs to try and make the story themselves. That's not journalism.



Here is what is evident to me so far...

1. Charles Sly makes comments while being secretly recorded regarding a number of professional athletes using a steroid known as Delta-2.

2. Taylor Teagarden of the Chicago Cubs is also secretly recorded on the video in the presence of Sly talking about the use and detection of Delta-2.

3. Al Jazeera claims that Sly was able to supply the undercover reporter, Liam Collins, with performance enhancing drugs. They also claim that they kept the drugs supplied.

4. Sly also makes reference to HGH being shipped to Ashley Manning as well as the Manning's coming into the Guyer Clinic after hours.

5. The documentary points out that HGH cannot be prescribed off-label and that there are only three lawful reasons it can be prescribed, which are AIDS wasting, short bowel syndrome and growth hormone deficiency, none of which one would go to an anti-aging clinic doctor to have prescribed.

5. Prior to the documentary being released, Sly issued a video in which he recants basically anything he said.

6. Peyton Manning issued a statement denying ever using HGH and stating that any treatment received by his wife is a private matter of hers. Manning also confirms that his wife was a patient at the clinic and did have a prescription. Manning also does confirm being a patient at the Guyer Clinic, disputes the comment about him going there after hours but then confirms that he would go there after hours.

8. The Guyer Clinic issued a statement saying that Sly never even worked at the Clinic in 2011 and that he was not there until 2013.

9. Al Jazeera released a recording of their reporter contacting the clinic to confirm when Sly worked there and being provided with a start date of October 17th, 2011.

10. Pharmacy records show that Sly was licensed as a pharmacy intern in Indiana between April 2010 and May 2013.

10. Indianapolis reporter Bob Kravitz confirmed that he had been prescribed HGH by the Guyer Clinic in the past.

11. In September 2011, Manning travelled to Europe to undergo a stem cell therapy in regards to his neck surgeries.

12. This (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/peyton-manning-receiving-stem-cell-therapy-thrusts-medical-procedures-back-sports-spotlight-article-1.956042)article quotes a doctor who says that if HGH is used in conjunction with stem cell therapy, that the recovery and healing process is more effective. This (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031204074202.htm) article on Science Daily would seem to support that.


So, that would appear to be the evidence before me. Now, a few major concerns for me have been raised based on statements that have been made, etc.

Firstly, Charles Sly's ability to supply performance enhancing drugs is pretty much validated by the fact that Teagarden appears at what is presumably Sly's apartment and discusses drugs with the undercover reporter. I suppose it's possible that all of the other athletes he mentioned are lies but Teagarden seems legit. It also seems strange that he would put so much emphasis on a random player such as Mike Neal if they were lies.

Secondly, if the lies were simply made to sell drugs to the undercover reporter, why not lie and say that he supplied Delta-2 (which Sly really seems to be pushing) to Peyton Manning, instead of saying that while employed at the Guyer Clinic, HGH was shipped to Manning's wife?

Thirdly, Charles Sly then makes a statement recanting everything. Manning then makes a statement saying he never used HGH but leaves open the door that his wife received HGH shipped from the Guyer Clinic? If Ashley Manning never received HGH from the Guyer Clinic, why hasn't someone said that thus far? If she did receive it, that means Sly was truthful, at least in parts.

Fourthly, the Guyer Clinic then makes a statement that Sly never worked there in 2011 when Manning was a patient. According to the ESPN article linked, Sly also told Chris Mortensen that he isn't a pharmacist and was not at the Guyer Clinic in 2011. According to Peter King, both Manning and Dr. Guyer told him that Sly worked at the clinic only in 2013. With the new video distributed confirming Sly as an employee at the Guyer Clinic beginning on October 17th, 2011, this leads to some major concerns about all of these people lying about Sly being there at the time. It's shocking that Mortensen and King would get something wrong, especially after the whole Deflategate thing, but that appears to be the case.

Anything I'm missing?

[Solecismic]

... It's shocking that Mortensen and King would get something wrong, especially after the whole Deflategate thing, but that appears to be the case.

Anything I'm missing?

I think you have a good handle on the case. What are you missing? Just that Al Jazeera took a piece of this information and turned it into this tabloid drama, complete with children throwing footballs while wearing Manning jerseys. Again, that's not journalism. Tell the story (if you have it sourced) and let people come to their own conclusions. Don't tell people what to think.

As for Mortensen, he trashed his own reputation by taking information (probably from the NFL offices) and repeating it without getting confirmation - or even someone with a name on the record. That's the state of journalism these days. Get it out first, even if you have to clean up later.

This is a one-source story, and the source said he embellished to impress this British hurdler who seems to have his own credibility issues. There may be a story here, but it's not properly sourced. And with someone's reputation on the line, that's not ethical. Right now, it's "more probably than not, Peyton Manning made an effort to recover from his neck injury."

[Carman Bulldog]

I think you have a good handle on the case. What are you missing? Just that Al Jazeera took a piece of this information and turned it into this tabloid drama, complete with children throwing footballs while wearing Manning jerseys. Again, that's not journalism. Tell the story (if you have it sourced) and let people come to their own conclusions. Don't tell people what to think.

In my opinion, that MileHighReport.com story (an unbiased website I'm sure), overplays the whole kid in a jersey thing. The documentary shows the same short clip at two different points of one kid in the Manning jersey throwing the ball. There is also a female fan talking about how great Peyton is. The whole point I believe is to show how admired of an athlete/person Manning is, which is important in the context of the documentary because it shows that even someone as respected as Manning is potentially linked to performance enhancing drugs.

This is a one-source story, and the source said he embellished to impress this British hurdler who seems to have his own credibility issues. There may be a story here, but it's not properly sourced. And with someone's reputation on the line, that's not ethical. Right now, it's "more probably than not, Peyton Manning made an effort to recover from his neck injury."

You're correct, it is a single source story. I'm not sure I buy the embellishment angle at all though, particularly in regards to Manning. If you wanted to impress the hurdler, why not just say that you supplied Peyton Manning with Delta-2 like he did everyone else? Regarding the sourcing, there is some corroboration of his overall story via the drugs received from Charles Sly (if you believe Collins did receive drugs which Al Jazeera says they still have) as well as a pro athlete (Taylor Teagarden) also corroborating receiving drugs from Sly right on video. There was also the other doctor (two doctors?) that put the hurdler on to Sly and how much the doctor(s) pumped Sly's tires, so to speak. Al Jazeera America also confirmed that Sly was licensed as a pharmacy intern in the State of Indiana between 2010 and 2013 and confirmed that he worked at the Guyer Clinic beginning in October 2011. They have evidence that supports this.

Furthermore though, the claim of the single source was that HGH was being shipped to Ashley Manning on a regular basis. A claim that still has not been denied by anybody.

Here are the claims by the source as I see them;

1. Ashley Manning and Peyton Manning were patients at the Guyer Clinic. - This was confirmed by Manning's camp.

2. Sly met Manning at the Guyer Institute and was part of a medical team that helped Manning recover from his surgery. - This has been denied and claims made that Sly was not there until 2013, although it was later revealed that Al Jazeera had Guyer Clinic staff on recording confirming Sly started there in October 2011. Why the denials?

3. The Manning's would come in after hours for treatment. - Manning said that he and his wife never went in together after hours and that the "after hours" thing was "misleading", but then confirmed that he would go there outside regular scheduled hours.

4. Dr. Guyer dispenses drugs out of his office. - Indianpolis Colts beat writer Bob Kravitz confirmed that he was prescribed HGH by Dr. Guyer in the past.

5. The Guyer Clinic would frequently be sending Ashley Manning growth hormone. - To date, no one has denied this and Manning's camp has confirmed that Ashley Manning had a prescription there for a yet undisclosed drug.

Apart from some contention about when Sly worked there, they have not denied any of his allegations, not even the one where Ashley Manning had HGH shipped to her. I'm guessing that the PR specialist Manning hired quickly had Manning confirm everything that could be proven (ie. being a patient at the clinic, attending outside of regular scheduled hours, Ashley Manning having a prescription at the clinic, etc.) while not painting themselves into a corner by lying about anything that could potentially be proven later (ie. Ashley Manning did have HGH shipped to her or an HGH prescription).

If this turns out to be a situation where Ashley Manning was having HGH illegally prescribed to her off-label and she was actually the one using the HGH coincidentally during the same time frame that the her husband was recovering from stem cell therapy (a treatment aided by the use of HGH), then I feel really bad for the guy.

[Solecismic]

In response, I'd say to the reporter, "you have the bones of what could be a good story, but it's not there yet."

Instead, Al-Jazeera dressed it up like The National Enquirer, framed it in an emotional "what-if" context, and thoroughly trashed Manning's reputation.

If you wanted to impress the hurdler, why not just say that you supplied Peyton Manning with Delta-2 like he did everyone else?

No idea. Why would an intern in the pharmacy know anything more than shipping labels? He wouldn't meet Manning as part of a team - not even to get his sneakers signed.

Surely Al Jazeera's legal department reviewed this - perhaps this testimony was tweaked just to the edge of open-and-shut libel. That's what The National Enquirer does.

If this turns out to be a situation where Ashley Manning was having HGH illegally prescribed to her off-label and she was actually the one using the HGH coincidentally during the same time frame that the her husband was recovering from stem cell therapy (a treatment aided by the use of HGH), then I feel really bad for the guy.

We don't know that it was illegally prescribed. We don't know what it was for. Ashley Manning is a private individual, and if it was legally prescribed for her (even if the prescription itself violates medical rules), this is likely a huge problem for the clinic under HIPAA and a probable libel issue for Al Jazeera in terms of airing private facts about a private individual.

If this is the case, the important thing is that Manning denies the cheating accusation immediately. He can take his time on the legal end, because it's such an easy case.

Al Jazeera ran a story based entirely on circumstantial evidence from a single and rather unreliable source. Again, that is not journalism.

[Carman Bulldog]

Instead, Al-Jazeera dressed it up like The National Enquirer, framed it in an emotional "what-if" context, and thoroughly trashed Manning's reputation.

Al Jazeera ran a story based entirely on circumstantial evidence from a single and rather unreliable source. Again, that is not journalism.

I'm not sure that I buy the argument that it is at a National Enquirer level. In my opinion, that would be more along the lines of "Anonymous Source says that Ashley Manning had HGH shipped to her." Here we have an identified individual making the claims. That person is verified as an employee (or intern) at the clinic the Manning's frequented.

I'll also post these comments, regarding the retraction:

“Charlie Sly’s denial came something like three and a half weeks after we contacted him to tell him precisely what was in the program. He didn’t reply to us,” Davies said, per ESPN’s Darren Rovell. “You have to question whether someone who’s spoken to you for twenty-plus hours, when they don’t know they’re being filmed, says one thing when they certainly have something to hide."

“You’ve seen drugs in his fridge. You’ve seen a baseball player turn up at his apartment. Do you believe what he said when he didn’t realize there was anything to hide, or do you believe what he says when he knows he’s about to be exposed?”

Charles Sly claimed he could supply them with drugs, was able to supply them with drugs, and had an MLB ball player show up at his apartment and talk about being supplied with drugs by Sly. That gives him a bit of credibility in my book. With that said, it obviously doesn't make everything he says true but see below.

No idea. Why would an intern in the pharmacy know anything more than shipping labels? He wouldn't meet Manning as part of a team - not even to get his sneakers signed.

He obviously knew that the Manning's were clients there, knew that they attended after hours, and presumably knew that Ashley Manning had a prescription for something. That or he got lucky and guessed at all of these things which the Manning's then verified. I'm guessing an intern pharmacist is a lot closer to an articling lawyer than some sort of different type of internship and probably works closely with the pharmacist to learn the trade.

We don't know that it was illegally prescribed. We don't know what it was for. Ashley Manning is a private individual, and if it was legally prescribed for her (even if the prescription itself violates medical rules), this is likely a huge problem for the clinic under HIPAA and a probable libel issue for Al Jazeera in terms of airing private facts about a private individual.

I'll agree that there are some major HIPPA issues. I'll also reiterate that there are only three reasons one can legally be prescribed HGH, those being HIV wasting, growth hormone deficiency or short bowel syndrome. From what I understand, you would not go to an anti-aging doctor if the matter related to any of those issues. Therefore it is much more likely than not that it would be illegally prescribed, again assuming that it was prescribed and shipped to her (which to this point no one is denying).

[EagleFan]

It's a witch hunt being led by a station that is irrelevant. Don't let the agenda poison your brain, nothing good can come from it.

[QuikSand]

I confess I lack the discipline/patience to read through everything here, much less any source material, on the HGH story.

If this turns out to be a situation where Ashley Manning was having HGH illegally prescribed to her off-label and she was actually the one using the HGH coincidentally during the same time frame that the her husband was recovering from stem cell therapy (a treatment aided by the use of HGH), then I feel really bad for the guy.

I'll endorse this capsule, though.

Bottom line is...how wrong is it for a somewhat engaged sports fan like me to basically conclude "smoke...fire" every time we hear about PEDs? We have heard this whole line so many times, some variation on the poppyseed bagel or oxygen tank or whatever... and how many times have we really felt like players were being treated totally unfairly? Forgive me/us if I/we basically fall into the trap of writing off another seemingly great sports comeback/breakthrough story as a product of banned/illegal chemistry or other practices.

For reference, here's some commentary from this forum from the long-forgotten(?) episode where Sammy Sosa was caught cheating with a corked bat:

No matter how I feel about people prior to such a circumstance, my initial inclination when someone faces a major disgrace is to assume that everything that leaves their mouth in describing the circumstance is a lie. It's a shame that I feel that way, but it's experience-driven.

Every guy who gets nabbed in a cathouse was "just asking directions." Every politician who gets nailed taking a wad of cash from an illegal contributor was "a misunderstanding." Every athlete who gets caught positive for drugs of steroids was "using cold medicine" or "eating a poppyseed bagel" or somesuch. I suppose that there's 1 in 100 of these people who are telling the truth, and it's a shame that those few get caught up with the rest of them.

You get caught cheating in baseball? In my book, you're a cheater. You then start with a story about how you're innocent? Now you're a liar, too.

Sorry, Sammy. Wish it hadn't happened.

It's been a long time since that happened, but I'm still right there and I've got a lot of company.

[SteveMax58]

It's been a long time since that happened, but I'm still right there and I've got a lot of company.

+1

I am a lot less interested in this story to go and exhaustively read all of the sources because I have no vested feelings with the matter. I think regardless of whether Peyton used HGH, he's still a basically decent guy by most standards of people, from what we can see & know about him from afar. I'll still like him for what I presume to be a clean career up until that injury. Not unlike my view of Roger Clemens who was great & headed into decline after 1996 and then somehow revitalizes his career at age 34 which had been trending downward for 4 straight years, and somehow got better in the era of steroid hitting batters.

But in the end, we're talking about a lot of potential motivation here to get back on the field and cement his legacy...and thats not even including the short & long term monetary aspects.

I'm not concluding he did anything wrong based on what I've seen so far (admittedly limited). But I also can't be shocked any more to think it impossible that Manning would do it, under the right confluence of circumstances. And his neck injury, just when he was about to cement his HoF resume, qualifies well enough for such a circumstance imho.

[stevew]

Why is HGH illegal if it's supposedly a enhancement to things like stem cell therapy. I kinda want guys to be able to heal up from serious injuries as quickly as possible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And in other related news (see up the thread)

Al-Jazeera America says we’re done | (http://www.medialifemagazine.com/al-jazeera-america-is-closing-down/)

Network will be shut down by April, per announcement made today.