Armed "Militia" takes over wildlife refuge outpost

[Easy Mac]

Well, this will be fun
Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html)

[Edward64]

Uh oh. Won't end well.

[PilotMan]

I really, really, really want one of the Rep nominees to go up there and campaign with these guys, ala Huckabee and the Kentucky County Clerk.

They sound like a bunch of insurgents that need to be taught an old lesson about how the government handles insurgents.

[Dutch]

They sound like a bunch of insurgents that need to be taught an old lesson about how the government handles insurgents.

Oh, they'll get that lesson. No worries there.

[whomario]

Did i read that right, that the lightning rod in question was actually not really protesting his having to go to prison ? (and since none of the articles i read on this explains it: Why are they to go to prison, exactly ?)

also: remind me again when/where this sort of thing happened again ? Sounds awfully familiar (and i mean sth similar somewhere "in the woods" and not Waco or sth), but might be it happened in a novel i read back when ...

[claphamsa]

Oh, they'll get that lesson. No worries there.

last time they did this nothing happened...

[HerRealName]

Did i read that right, that the lightning rod in question was actually not really protesting his having to go to prison ? (and since none of the articles i read on this explains it: Why are they to go to prison, exactly ?)

also: remind me again when/where this sort of thing happened again ? Sounds awfully familiar (and i mean sth similar somewhere "in the woods" and not Waco or sth), but might be it happened in a novel i read back when ...

They were convicted of arson. Seems mainly like they were starting fires to hide evidence of elk poaching. Sometimes burning hundreds of acres and endangering firefighters already in the area. True patriots.

Edit: From this article it looks like they were poaching deer instead.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

[panerd]

Can't wait for this thread so I can see the Michael Brown FOFC posters talk about the rule of law and supporting police and vice versa.

[HerRealName]

Can't wait for this thread so I can see the Michael Brown FOFC posters talk about the rule of law and supporting police and vice versa.

False equivalence is the best equivalence.

[JPhillips]

I can't wait until Fox starts asking white people to condemn these actions.

[Toddzilla]

Uh oh. Won't end well.Sure it will. No one will get shot, no one will get arrested, it will all get blown over.

Meanwhile, some kid on a swing minding his busniess will get shot and killed with no provocation.

[Ben E Lou]

In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I read this story and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

[JPhillips]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sbGdMKpHDDE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[PilotMan]

In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I read this story and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

They've worked it up in their heads, along with the tea party movement in general, that they are the true champions of liberty and that the tyranny of government oppression, whatever that means here in the US, must be stopped.

They've essentially conquered territory, declared a caliphate, and encouraged others to join them. It's our very own, homegrown, ISIS group. Yippee.

[Ben E Lou]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sbGdMKpHDDE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>I just watched every minute of that. Twice. And I'm left with...In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I <s>read this story</s> watch that video and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

[JPhillips]

I feel for the guy's family. He sees this as so important he left them alone for the holidays and he certainly seems like he's looking for a violent resolution to the event. He could do a lot more good staying at home and helping his daughters and wife.

[RainMaker]

Nothing will happen because for some reason our government is afraid of confronting these whackjobs.

[Abe Sargent]

Thanks wikipedia


Bundy standoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff)

[JPhillips]

I'm opposed to escalating the violence. If people start shooting that will put a lot of law enforcement in the line of fire. Waiting for this to die down doesn't hurt much of anything and discredits their "cause" far better than a Waco type ending.

[PilotMan]

I'm not opposed to violence. There's a point where waiting for it to die down is seen more as passive acceptance and it gives the movement a toehold in the area and in society in general. Crush it out right now and dare them to try it again. A continued attitude of patience will only embolden them.

[Dutch]

They are attempting to turn a small local issue into a national crisis. It's simply not going to work. The best they can hope for is a little media sensationalism. They should get that...but that's it.

[JPhillips]

What do you think attracts more people, fighting a violent government or camping through winter in a nature refuge?

[PilotMan]

They and everyone with them already believe that they are fighting the government, violent or not. The more time they have to hold, the more that it looks like nothing is being done, the more time they have to draw national attention and potentially anyone else dumb enough to join them.

[Ben E Lou]

They and everyone with them already believe that they are fighting the government, violent or not. The more time they have to hold, the more that it looks like nothing is being done, the more time they have to draw national attention and potentially anyone else dumb enough to join them.Would they though? Seems like for most of us, it'd be a bunch of dudes camping out in the woods in Oregon for some vague "cause," and the media would lose interest because stories about it wouldn't generate clicks. That said, I do have some concerns about the principle of letting people take over government-owner property without any pushback. *shurg*

[whomario]

They are not actually threatening any lives right now, correct ? In the long run i am pretty sure that responding to this with immediate violence without trying their damndest to find other solutions is a sure-fire way to get people on the fringe in the region to get radicalized. Oh, there likely would be more people afraid and "not dare to try again", but it will also create a bunch more radicals. As it always does when you go to a violent solution in any conflict ever. There is always a point where you can not avoid it, but i think it is perfectly valid to still try an alternative strategy at this point.

Too bad this isn´t the Amazon or the Sundarbans, that´d make this die a lot quicker.

[PilotMan]

I guess that depends on the media, what kind of coverage they get, and what kind of social media they use. My facebook hasn't blown up with idiots yet, but this is Kentucky, it's only a matter of time.

[JPhillips]

Would they though? Seems like for most of us, it'd be a bunch of dudes camping out in the woods in Oregon for some vague "cause," and the media would lose interest because stories about it wouldn't generate clicks. That said, I do have some concerns about the principle of letting people take over government-owner property without any pushback. *shurg*

I think you file charges and arrest them eventually, but I'm generally in favor of de-escaltion when lives are not at immediate risk.

[Abe Sargent]

I agree woith shutting it down now.


For example, the government backed down to the Bundy armed protesters and stopped rounding up his cattle, and ended a federally sanctioned way to stop.. As are result of this "victory against the government" there were shootings and such.


Go in there, and take them down. Don't be pansies.

In the standoff mentioned above, aw enforcement officials weren't wearing protective gear as the ranchers and militia got snipers into position. No gear why? They didn;t want to seem provocative. Go in and just end it.

[Edward64]

I think you file charges and arrest them eventually, but I'm generally in favor of de-escaltion when lives are not at immediate risk.

Agreed, need to talk and not escalate, there may not be civilian lives at risk but there may be LEO lives at risk if they go in now.

IMO, there will be a time to take action when talking fails but not immediately.

[JPhillips]

Stay back, cut the power and water and I bet this is over fairly quickly. This isn't a situation where they have months of supplies stockpiled in the building.

[PilotMan]

Stay back, cut the power and water and I bet this is over fairly quickly. This isn't a situation where they have months of supplies stockpiled in the building.

But they've already said they have supplies and a generator and by their own word are prepared to hold it for "years."

[JPhillips]

I seriously doubt they have even enough supplies to last more than a month. Looking at their social media posts, it's clear they want a violent confrontation.

[dawgfan]

I think you file charges and arrest them eventually, but I'm generally in favor of de-escaltion when lives are not at immediate risk.
Bingo. The authorities going in with guns blazing just plays into the paranoia of these groups. Cut their power and supplies, wait them out, arrest them and deal with them in the court room. Sure, they'll play up the trials as much as they can, but it will have far less chance of stirring up sympathy than going after them with force. And of course it will be safer for all involved.

[AENeuman]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sbGdMKpHDDE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My big takeaway is I need to change the constitution books I buy for my government class. (It's from the heritage foundation, I like it because it does not give titles or summaries- I make my student do that)

[RainMaker]

For people that seem to hate big government, they love to suck off the teet of it.

[cuervo72]

Agreed, need to talk and not escalate, there may not be civilian lives at risk but there may be LEO lives at risk if they go in now.

Wait, I thought LEO lives were always at risk?

[Edward64]

Wait, I thought LEO lives were always at risk?

How about "there is a higher risk to LEO's getting injured right now"?

[PilotMan]

This is less a job for local law enforcement and more a job for the military.

[cuervo72]

How about "there is a higher risk to LEO's getting injured right now"?

So armed white prepper/militia sorts are more risky than 12yo with toy guns? Huh.

[cuervo72]

This is less a job for local law enforcement and more a job for the military.

But yes, I agree with this. Especially if we're talking federal grounds.

[Edward64]

So armed white prepper/militia sorts are more risky than 12yo with toy guns? Huh.

Um ... why don't you take this to another thread?

[cuervo72]

I'll comment where I want, thanks.

[mauchow]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sbGdMKpHDDE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I read the comments on Yahoo!, one that stood out the most was: "If this guy was born in another country he'd be a suicide bomber..."

Pretty accurate.

[Edward64]

I'll comment where I want, thanks.

Of course. Just leave me out of your trolling.

[cuervo72]

I say let them sit there, seize whatever property they have, and blow up their pickup trucks.

[cuervo72]

I don't think it's exactly trolling to point out that a goodly part of the population thinks that law enforcement is a really dangerous job* - to the point that they have near impunity for pulling and discharging their weapons - yet a legitimate threat that emerges can be met with the sentiment of whoa, hey - let's think about this, this might be dangerous. Which of course it is, but it's one of the minority cases where LEO may not hold an edge.


* First, it's consistently ranked behind things like a pilot, or some types of construction worker. Second, they know this is what they are signing up for, yes?

[whomario]

So you are saying that because some Idiot cop/police force in Whereevertown abuses his Power it should be ok to sent some other LEO into an armed confrontation ?

[cuervo72]

No, I said earlier in the thread that I think any response should be a federal one (though I'd also like to point out that military personnel = people, the same as is law enforcement).

This is more a comment on how many are behind LEO banging down doors and busting heads and coming in guns a-blazin' in raids of houses, but aren't so much in cases like this. Which makes me think hey, maybe those other raids aren't quite as dangerous as some want us to believe.

I'll abandon this argument now though as it has strayed from the specific situation.

[Dutch]

So you are saying that because some Idiot cop/police force in Whereevertown abuses his Power it should be ok to sent some other LEO into an armed confrontation ?

No, he's saying we should ban pickup trucks and/or white people. :)

[cuervo72]

Taking out their pickup trucks would be hitting them where it hurts. (I learned this from country music.)

[Dutch]

Taking out their pickup trucks would be hitting them where it hurts. (I learned this from country music.)

Now I was only kidding, I thought you only hated rich white people?? :)


I ain’t rich, but I damn sure wanna be
Working like a dog all day, ain’t working for me
I wish I had a rich uncle that’d kick the bucket
And that I was sitting on a pile like Warren Buffett
I know everybody says
Money can’t buy happiness

But it could buy me a boat, it could buy me a truck to pull it
It could buy me a Yeti 110 iced down with some silver bullets
Yeah, and I know what they say,
Money can’t buy everything
Well, maybe so,
But it could buy me a boat

[Groundhog]

seize whatever property they have

In all seriousness, this is exactly what they should do IMO. Seize all their assets.

[PilotMan]

Bottom line is something needs to be done. One way or another, something needs to be done. I'm not sure waiting them out or ignoring them constitutes doing something.

[QuikSand]

I wonder which derisive nickname they like better

#vanillaISIS

#yallQuaeda

[Solecismic]

When people choose violent resistance, I think we need to address this with law enforcement. It's hard to compare this to ISIS, where the violence is deliberately extended toward innocent people. It needs its own category.

Because there's no current threat to innocent lives and there's no disruption of commerce or the freedom of others, law enforcement can take its time planning a response. But a response is necessary.

Using the military is an interesting idea, but we have laws against deploying them within the country for good reason - the same reason we have a Second Amendment. Our military plays a specific and vital role in national defense. Their training is specific to a different type of threat, where the judgment has already been made. Enemy combatants are not given the same rights as American citizens.

These people need to be addressed with the goal of bringing them to a fair trial. If they resist this arrest, and it appears they have planned to do so, force is necessary. There are police units with this specific training. Let them do their jobs, and try not to judge them harshly if some of these people are killed in the process. We owe our law enforcement a deep debt. If we didn't have police, groups like this would be everywhere, and many of them would be a serious threat to our own lives.

[Butter]

I'm going to take the JiMGa stance here.

If they want to become martyrs, let them. They are trying to seize United States lands and create their own "state". The Army should be sent in to take back these federal lands from these militarized "citizens".

Live by the rule of law, die by it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm going to take the JiMGa stance here.

If they want to become martyrs, let them. They are trying to seize United States lands and create their own "state". The Army should be sent in to take back these federal lands from these militarized "citizens".

Live by the rule of law, die by it.

That's not a bad JiMGa impersonation there, Butterman. Well done!

[Butter]

Thanks, I try.

[flere-imsaho]

I find myself increasingly in disagreement with Jim these days, but his post (#55) neatly summarizes my opinion.

[PilotMan]

I find myself increasingly in disagreement with Jim these days, but his post (#55) neatly summarizes my opinion.

Yep, it was well said and on point.

[Dutch]

I wonder which derisive nickname they like better

#vanillaISIS

#yallQuaeda

:)

[BillJasper]

I'd go build a fence around the cabin. No one goes in, no one goes out until they surrender.

[Abe Sargent]

When people choose violent resistance, I think we need to address this with law enforcement. It's hard to compare this to ISIS, where the violence is deliberately extended toward innocent people. It needs its own category.

Because there's no current threat to innocent lives and there's no disruption of commerce or the freedom of others, law enforcement can take its time planning a response. But a response is necessary.

Using the military is an interesting idea, but we have laws against deploying them within the country for good reason - the same reason we have a Second Amendment. Our military plays a specific and vital role in national defense. Their training is specific to a different type of threat, where the judgment has already been made. Enemy combatants are not given the same rights as American citizens.

These people need to be addressed with the goal of bringing them to a fair trial. If they resist this arrest, and it appears they have planned to do so, force is necessary. There are police units with this specific training. Let them do their jobs, and try not to judge them harshly if some of these people are killed in the process. We owe our law enforcement a deep debt. If we didn't have police, groups like this would be everywhere, and many of them would be a serious threat to our own lives.


To me this whole thing, from the anti-federal government push and confrontation in Nevada to this, is all part of a movement that reminds me of the Whiskey Rebellion in the 1790s. In order to end it, and to force those folks to pay their taxes, Washington rode at the head of a large army. Battle never even ensued, and it was ended eventually without a lot of bloodshed.

But a military response was precisely the appropriate action necessary to force people to pay their taxes and ot stop being ornery.

[CrimsonFox]

So like can the ducks and geese have their houses then?

[CrimsonFox]

hmmmm I just had a thought...

David Koresh and the Branch Davidians of Waco.

[CU Tiger]

In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I read this story and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

+1

The closest Ive come to fully understanding their POV was this:
Full Story About What’s Going on In Oregon – “Militia” Take Over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge In Protest to Hammond Family Persecution… | The Last Refuge (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/)

Far from an unbiased source based on domain name alone, but it at least tried to paint a story.

[Dutch]

@CrimsonFox

Too late! Post #5 referenced Waco.

I can still see in my mind that hapless ATF dude at the curtain and bullets flying out at him...

[CrimsonFox]

@CrimsonFox

Too late! Post #5 referenced Waco.

I can still see in my mind that hapless ATF dude at the curtain and bullets flying out at him...



http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Gucci-Damn-300x336.jpg

[whomario]

@CrimsonFox

Too late! Post #5 referenced Waco.



anti-referenced it, actually

[Dutch]

Objection overruled!

[albionmoonlight]

Isn't this one kind of easy? They don't have hostages, right?

Supply them with food from a local prison. Keep guards around to keep others from coming in and joining them. Tell them when they want to come out and surrender, they are free to do so. But that you are cool if they stay in.

This can go on for years, right?

[CrimsonFox]

Isn't this one kind of easy? They don't have hostages, right?

Supply them with food from a local prison. Keep guards around to keep others from coming in and joining them. Tell them when they want to come out and surrender, they are free to do so. But that you are cool if they stay in.

This can go on for years, right?

I thought of that. But the problem is that they'll shoot and eat every living thing in sight. I seriously hope they are spycamming these dudes and keeping a scorecard of everything they illegally shoot.

[Dutch]

Isn't this one kind of easy? They don't have hostages, right?

Supply them with food from a local prison. Keep guards around to keep others from coming in and joining them. Tell them when they want to come out and surrender, they are free to do so. But that you are cool if they stay in.

This can go on for years, right?

Hmmm, they would be too stupid to realize they put themselves in jail. I think it's brilliant. :)

[mauchow]

I wonder which derisive nickname they like better

#vanillaISIS

#yallQuaeda

I like #yeehawdists

[cuervo72]

#YokelHaram not bad either.

[wustin]

They have the right intentions but occupying a federal facility with militiamen is the wrong thing to do.

The whole Hammond fiasco has created a huge precedent for ranchers in the west. The feds have been fucking over the Hammonds for a decade over land.

[JPhillips]

They have the right intentions but occupying a federal facility with militiamen is the wrong thing to do.

The whole Hammond fiasco has created a huge precedent for ranchers in the west. The feds have been fucking over the Hammonds for a decade over land.

Uhh, their intentions are to start a civil war and overthrow the federal government.

[wustin]

Uhh, their intentions are to start a civil war and overthrow the federal government.

And you start that by taking over an empty building?

Their intentions are to bring attention to the expansion of federal property in Oregon (and the west) and the extreme harassment the feds have taken to seize land and push out ranchers.

As for the whole Hammonds arrest, I do think that they both should serve the 5-year sentence (which they will).

[Dutch]

And you start that by taking over an empty building?

And one in the middle of nowhere...as far as we know, this is all actually taking place in Canada.

[JPhillips]

And you start that by taking over an empty building?

Their intentions are to bring attention to the expansion of federal property in Oregon (and the west) and the extreme harassment the feds have taken to seize land and push out ranchers.

As for the whole Hammonds arrest, I do think that they both should serve the 5-year sentence (which they will).

Watch the video I posted earlier. He's looking to go out in a blaze of glory. He's Tim McVeigh without the truck bomb.

[Dutch]

Better to burn out, than fade away? Sure...but they have 3700 cans of Pork n Beans...

[lighthousekeeper]

as far as we know, this is all actually taking place in Canada.

Over Polk's dead body. 54° 40' or fight!

[Dutch]

One of the greatest war rally cries of all time. :) But look, nobody knows where 54-40 is anymore accept for maybe Google Maps. These dudes have Rand McNally's from 1982...the maps are likely severely faded.

[molson]

News about #bundyeroticfanfic on Twitter (https://twitter.com/hashtag/bundyeroticfanfic?src=hash)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Angry Militia Leader: Stop Mailing Us DildosÂ* (http://gawker.com/angry-militia-leader-stop-mailing-us-dildos-1752580458)

[Honolulu_Blue]

These militia dorks are excellent fodder. So long as they just keep sitting there doing nothing and being stupid, their existence may... may be worth it. May.

[whomario]

Does the fact that he is wearing a jacket inside mean that gas (or whatever heats the rooms) has been cut ? :)

[panerd]

Wait... you can send these guys packages and mail at an illegally occupied federal building?

[Neuqua]

Angry Militia Leader: Stop Mailing Us DildosÂ* (http://gawker.com/angry-militia-leader-stop-mailing-us-dildos-1752580458)

I can't stop laughing at this.

[QuikSand]

I can't stop laughing at this.

+1

[JPhillips]

I can't believe so many people spend money and time on hate when they could buy guns and ammo and occupy federal buildings until the government is overthrown.

[PilotMan]

If you liked that you'll love this!

Drama Alert! The Oregon Militia Boys Are Beefing Like Instagram Teens (http://gawker.com/drama-alert-the-oregon-militia-boys-are-beefing-like-i-1751917762)

[BillJasper]

If you liked that you'll love this!

Drama Alert! The Oregon Militia Boys Are Beefing Like Instagram Teens (http://gawker.com/drama-alert-the-oregon-militia-boys-are-beefing-like-i-1751917762)

:lol:

[stevew]

The Dumb and the Restless | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-dumb-and-the-restless-20160107?page=3)

[BillJasper]

The Dumb and the Restless | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-dumb-and-the-restless-20160107?page=3)

#YallQaeda

:lol:

[cuervo72]

I smell reality show.

[NobodyHere]

A couple of the guys are fuckers of the highest grade Stolen Valor: Men In Oregon ‘Militia’ Caught Red-Handed Falsely Posing As Marine Veterans « (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2016/01/07/stolen-valor-men-in-oregon-militia-caught-red-handed-falsely-posing-as-marine-veterans/)

[BillJasper]

Classy bunch.

[BillJasper]

Oregon Militiamen Appear To Be Preparing To Put Local Officials On 'Trial' (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/oregon-militiamen-prepare-for-grand-jury-against-local-officials)

Nothing says 'Freedom' like meeting in private.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm confused. These guys are holed up. How are they getting mail and visitors? Why is the government letting people and stuff in?

[RainMaker]

I'm confused. These guys are holed up. How are they getting mail and visitors? Why is the government letting people and stuff in?

Because the feds approach has been to let them do whatever they want because they are afraid of political backlash I guess.

[claphamsa]

because its funny...and these guys are clowns.

I would done some drone strikes...but thats just me.

[Toddzilla]

Max Temkin on Twitter. LOL
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYpMRYqVAAApvwP.png

[cartman]

One down, many more to go.

Protester arrested in Burns, accused of driving stolen refuge vehicle | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/protester_arrested_in_burns_dr.html)

[dawgfan]

One down, many more to go.

Protester arrested in Burns, accused of driving stolen refuge vehicle | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/protester_arrested_in_burns_dr.html)

One: These idiots thought they'd just be able to drive into town in stolen property during this occupation and get away with it?

Two: Please tell me the police staked out the other stolen vehicle for the driver and that the driver was smart enough to not return to it when he saw the police, and the police have impounded it?

[NobodyHere]

One: These idiots thought they'd just be able to drive into town in stolen property during this occupation and get away with it?

Two: Please tell me the police staked out the other stolen vehicle for the driver and that the driver was smart enough to not return to it when he saw the police, and the police have impounded it?

In regards to your first point, Obama and the local officials have let them get away with everything else, why should they expect them to put their feet down now?

[cartman]

Ammon Bundy and some of the others were arrested after a traffic stop. Early reports were that shots were fired during the stop.

[PilotMan]

Bundys in custody, one militant dead after gunfight near Burns | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html)

[BillJasper]

Bundys in custody, one militant dead after gunfight near Burns | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html)

I hope it was worth it. They're all going to pay a steep price.

[Dutch]

Isn't this kind of like how The Search for the Holy Grail ended?

[RainMaker]

Sounds like Lavoy Finicum was the guy killed. He was the militant who was leeching off the government with his foster parent scam.

[NobodyHere]

Sounds like Lavoy Finicum was the guy killed. He was the militant who was leeching off the government with his foster parent scam.

I wonder if they'll bury him in a blue tarp.

[PilotMan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZse9CnW0AAACx2.jpg

[PilotMan]

You can add one more name, Pete Santilli, arrested and charged the same as the others.

[PilotMan]

Jon "Sorry kids I'm not coming home" Ritzheimer turns himself in, in Arizona.

[stevew]

I wonder if they'll bury him in a blue tarp.

Obviously a FEMA body bag. I hear they have spares.

[CrimsonFox]

http://i5.walmartimages.com/dfw/dce07b8c-5c66/k2-_ab021996-9c52-4787-867f-0271c596c944.v1.jpg

He died for his donuts!
(NOW! Frosted!)

[Dutch]

Looks like Civil War II ends with a whimper and not a bang.

[stevew]

Oh geez, the max these dudes can get is only 6 years unless more charges are added.

[flere-imsaho]

Isn't this kind of like how The Search for the Holy Grail ended?

I cannot adequately express how much I love this comment. :D

Oh geez, the max these dudes can get is only 6 years unless more charges are added.

Leech off the government before jail, leech off the government in jail, leech off the government after jail. To channel Jon for a sec, at least the one guy who died won't be costing we taxpayers any more money.

[PilotMan]

It sounds like the FBI has choked off the area. They've set up checkpoints in and out. Only actual ranchers from there, checked with ID are allowed in. Anyone else will be arrested. The idiots are allowed to leave and surrender anytime.

It's nice to see them actually doing something and start isolating the morons off from the rest of the world.

[Dutch]

I cannot adequately express how much I love this comment. :D

For those who didn't have the privilege to watch the movie.

SPOILER - This is how it ends. :)


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qRxwBb7ev1Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[stevew]

Oh and here I thought it was some Indiana Jones "you chose poorly" reference I wasn't quite getting.

[Dutch]

Oh and here I thought it was some Indiana Jones "you chose poorly" reference I wasn't quite getting.

Yeah, somewhere along the way I mentally renamed "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" to "Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail" and I just can't seem to shake it. I see how that can lead to some picking up a possible Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade reference.

[stevew]

I don't understand how they continued to let these jokers come and go throughout this thing. Let alone how it was cool for them to get dildos in the mail.

[flere-imsaho]

Wonder if they'll go after Cliven Bundy, now.

[Easy Mac]

I don't understand how they continued to let these jokers come and go throughout this thing. Let alone how it was cool for them to get dildos in the mail.

Yeah, it seems like Fedex or UPS would be more appropriate.

[mckerney]

Yeah, it seems like Fedex or UPS would be more appropriate.

Who would probably decide that delivery to a remote wildlife reserve was too expensive without the help of the federal government and pass it off to the USPS to delivery it.

[cartman]

The FBI just released the video of the arrests and shooting. It completely refutes the claims that he did nothing to get shot.

[claphamsa]

The FBI just released the video of the arrests and shooting. It completely refutes the claims that he did nothing to get shot.

you cant not link that!

[SirFozzie]

The FBI just released the video of the arrests and shooting. It completely refutes the claims that he did nothing to get shot.

"Crisis actors man! It's how they faked Sandy Hook!"

That's usually when I want to punch them

[cartman]

Here's the link from the FBI YouTube channel. The full, unedited copy. It is from a spotter plane that was following, and it does show Finicum getting shot from a distance.

Complete, Unedited Video of Joint FBI and OSP Operation 01/26/2016 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ)

The Cliff Notes version:
There were two vehicles, a Jeep and a white truck. The Jeep is pulled over early in the video, and all occupants are taken into custody with no resistance. The truck is stopped initially, and one person leaves the truck and is taken into custody. Several more minutes pass, and no one is leaving the truck, despite numerous LEO requests to do so. The truck ends up speeding away. A spike strip is deployed, but the truck evades it. Further ahead there is a road block. Finicum tries to pass the road block, nearly running over a person at the road block, but then gets stuck in a snow bank. He exits the truck, moves away from the truck, and looks like he is reaching in his jacket, and is then shot. They found a loaded 9mm in the pocket he was reaching for. They use flashbangs and rubber rounds against the windows to get the rest of the people out of the truck.

[stevew]

Mormons are definitely an odd bunch.

[RainMaker]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[stevew]

So was his plan to get martyred and get his family a wrongful death claim? I don't understand these guys.

[Easy Mac]

I'm sure this makes me a horrible person, but this video needs the audio from the Leeroy Jenkins video overtop, with Leeroy Jenkins replaced with Levoy Finicum.

[JPhillips]

So was his plan to get martyred and get his family a wrongful death claim? I don't understand these guys.

Yeah, I don't understand why he was so willing to throw his life away, but he seemed intent on dying from the very beginning.

[stevew]

Look, I don't want to defend any of this but did those Hammond dudes maybe get a but of a raw deal? The one guy has been out of prison since mid 2012( or maybe it was mid 2013) and they're just now telling him to go back? Kinda seems a bit like BS if the gov't is ordering them back cause something got messed up.

Regardless it's not something worth dying over or breaking the law over.

[PilotMan]

Only in the sense that all mandatory sentencing rules should be reevaluated.

[SackAttack]

Mandatory sentencing is what happens when "Tough On Crime" becomes a "Reason To Vote For Me."

"Vote for me, I'll work to pass a law that won't let those damn bleeding heart liberal judges let criminals off easy."

So you get mandatory minimums. And that's fun because the same ideology that supports these knuckledraggers is generally in favor of mandatory minimums in other situations.

[flere-imsaho]

Look, I don't want to defend any of this but did those Hammond dudes maybe get a but of a raw deal? The one guy has been out of prison since mid 2012( or maybe it was mid 2013) and they're just now telling him to go back? Kinda seems a bit like BS if the gov't is ordering them back cause something got messed up.

I thought it was BS too until I read that they were persistently poaching on federal land and then setting fires to cover up evidence of said poaching.

[NobodyHere]

I thought it was BS too until I read that they were persistently poaching on federal land and then setting fires to cover up evidence of said poaching.

Was there actually evidence of poaching?

[cartman]

Was there actually evidence of poaching?

That's apparently why the fires were set, to cover up the evidence. The poaching claims were made by several witnesses in their testimony during the arson trial.

[TroyF]

I thought it was BS too until I read that they were persistently poaching on federal land and then setting fires to cover up evidence of said poaching.



I read up on the case as well and the entire thing stinks to high heaven. The government loses multiple lawsuits against this family and then trumps up as many charges as they can against them. The Hammonds deny all of the charges save one: The one they were convicted of. They stated they burned the land due to invasive plant species. So they've won multiple cases against the feds, admit they did one thing and deny everything else and somehow they get nailed on the thing they admitted? Then the judge doesn't think their crime warrants the mandatory sentencing, but the feds continue with their witch hunt?

Ugh. If these guys were not right wing lunatics and had the PR team of :"Making a Murderer", everyone in the country would be beside themselves at this railroading.

As for how the feds have handled this, I've been disgusted since day 1. Why they were allowing these guys to move freely around, get things shipped in, allow protesters to be on the site of the takeover. . . it was disgusting. I'm not saying they needed to go in guns blazing, but they should have at the least cut their power, blockade the roads in and out of the preserve and act like an actual crime was committed.

[panerd]

As for how the feds have handled this, I've been disgusted since day 1. Why they were allowing these guys to move freely around, get things shipped in, allow protesters to be on the site of the takeover. . . it was disgusting. I'm not saying they needed to go in guns blazing, but they should have at the least cut their power, blockade the roads in and out of the preserve and act like an actual crime was committed.

I think they wanted to avoid Waco, Ruby Ridge, OKC type of result which it seems like "only" one death accomplished. I agree though it was pretty bad that they could leave and get mail.

[MacroGuru]

Mormons are definitely an odd bunch.

Not all of them and these dumb asses give the rest a bad name.

[TroyF]

I think they wanted to avoid Waco, Ruby Ridge, OKC type of result which it seems like "only" one death accomplished. I agree though it was pretty bad that they could leave and get mail.

I know what they were trying to do and it doesn't make me feel any less disgusted. There is an in between Ruby Ridge and treating them like they are group of five year olds who ran away from home.

[JPhillips]

I read up on the case as well and the entire thing stinks to high heaven. The government loses multiple lawsuits against this family and then trumps up as many charges as they can against them. The Hammonds deny all of the charges save one: The one they were convicted of. They stated they burned the land due to invasive plant species. So they've won multiple cases against the feds, admit they did one thing and deny everything else and somehow they get nailed on the thing they admitted? Then the judge doesn't think their crime warrants the mandatory sentencing, but the feds continue with their witch hunt?

So if I commit a crime I should get off if I'm innocent of other crimes?

[TroyF]

So if I commit a crime I should get off if I'm innocent of other crimes?


I'm not even convinced they committed a crime. It's pretty clear the government was pissed off and throwing every charge they possibly could to get them. The judge presiding over the case didn't feel the punishment was fitting for the crime they were convicted of.

If you are thinking I'm saying the that it's ok to break the law, I'm not. But I read multiple accounts of this from different sources and it looks to me like the government wanted these guys on anything they could get them on.

Despite all of this, the Hammond's have showed up for every court appearance, turned themselves over to the authorities and even distanced themselves from this fiasco at the start.

I think it's OK to state "I disagree with most of their values, I think the people who took the preserve should spend a long time in jail and still believe the Hammond group was royally screwed by government officials"

[JPhillips]

I'm not even convinced they committed a crime. It's pretty clear the government was pissed off and throwing every charge they possibly could to get them. The judge presiding over the case didn't feel the punishment was fitting for the crime they were convicted of.

If you are thinking I'm saying the that it's ok to break the law, I'm not. But I read multiple accounts of this from different sources and it looks to me like the government wanted these guys on anything they could get them on.

Despite all of this, the Hammond's have showed up for every court appearance, turned themselves over to the authorities and even distanced themselves from this fiasco at the start.

I think it's OK to state "I disagree with most of their values, I think the people who took the preserve should spend a long time in jail and still believe the Hammond group was royally screwed by government officials"

But look at it another way, the Hammonds basically admit they committed arson and the law says the minimum sentence for that crime is five years. I may question the justice of the law, but I don't like the idea of prosecutors ignoring the law because they don't think it's just. The problem is the law, not necessarily the enforcement of the law.

[CU Tiger]

I think the people who took the preserve should spend a long time in jail and still believe the Hammond group was royally screwed by government officials"


This is exactly where I stand.

As I understand it the field burning was actually a prescribed treatment by the BLM for the regeneration of the winter grass.

[CU Tiger]

But look at it another way, the Hammonds basically admit they committed arson and the law says the minimum sentence for that crime is five years. I may question the justice of the law, but I don't like the idea of prosecutors ignoring the law because they don't think it's just. The problem is the law, not necessarily the enforcement of the law.

Sorry we were posting at the same time. They had permission to burn THEIR land and the land under their permit. They did not have permission to burn adjacent land and the fire got away from them. Even on a green burn day.

This is a far cry from arson.

This is where I think these arguments start to get analagous to the 2nd amendment stuff as it relates to life style.

I own a 200 acre pine tree plantation that is controlled burned every 4 years. This burning kills under growth and returns the nutrients in the pine needles on the ground back to the soil, effectively making fertilizer for the growing trees. It is essential to the ROI of the investment vehicle. There are actually state laws that prevent me from being charged if the fire spreads to a neighboring property so long as I burn on "green" days. There are the same laws on the books there, but the loophole is state law is trumped on federal lands.

[cartman]

Sorry we were posting at the same time. They had permission to burn THEIR land and the land under their permit. They did not have permission to burn adjacent land and the fire got away from them. Even on a green burn day.

This is a far cry from arson.


There were two separate fires they were convicted of setting. The one in 2006 was started when there was a burn ban in place.

[cuervo72]

I think the testimony from the grandson/nephew of the two on trial stated that he was told to start fires at the fence at the edge of their ranch. Which seems to be the place you'd want to start them if you were looking for the fire to spread off of your land.

[RainMaker]

You guys should really look through some of the court stuff from the Hammonds trial. Witnesses including a relative of theirs testified that they started the fire to cover up the poaching. Photos showed they started the fire before calling BLM to report that they were going to do a controlled burn.

The other fire was set during a burn ban and put a bunch of firefighters in the area who were fighting other fires at risk.

[JPhillips]

This is a far cry from arson.

Not according to multiple judges.

Again, you're arguing what the law should be, not whether the law was properly enforced. Even the Hammonds agree that they violated the law as written.

[mckerney]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cvZ_L9JsUsw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[TroyF]

But look at it another way, the Hammonds basically admit they committed arson and the law says the minimum sentence for that crime is five years. I may question the justice of the law, but I don't like the idea of prosecutors ignoring the law because they don't think it's just. The problem is the law, not necessarily the enforcement of the law.


If these guys were anyone other than who they are, the government agrees to a plea deal with minimal jail time.

The problem in this case might be the law, but the government was going to get their blood on this. They were humiliated in court multiple times by these guys.

Which again, is where I said above: If these guys had slightly different values and had a PR team that wasn't taking over a federal compound, the public would be going nuts over what happened to the Hammonds. I'm not saying I even like the Hammonds by the way. Maybe they were poaching. (I simply wouldn't trust a single government witness in this case, however) I just think they were railroaded here and it is a shame.

[BYU 14]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cvZ_L9JsUsw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Apparently his meds arrived shortly after the first video

[TroyF]

You guys should really look through some of the court stuff from the Hammonds trial. Witnesses including a relative of theirs testified that they started the fire to cover up the poaching. Photos showed they started the fire before calling BLM to report that they were going to do a controlled burn.

The other fire was set during a burn ban and put a bunch of firefighters in the area who were fighting other fires at risk.


I did look through it and find the witnesses less than credible.

Look at the Whitey Bulger trial. The government can do some amazing things when it wants to get you or it wants to make it appear like you are something you aren't.

Note: I'm not some nutjob who thinks the government is out to get everyone and I don't buy into ridiculous theories of how they are trying to kill us all.

But there are clearly times when they do things because it fits their agenda and because they've gotten mad.

(Note: If you haven't watched the Bulger documentary on Netflix, I highly urge you to do so)

[Subby]

I'm not going to make a blanket statement about fat white guys with goatees in camo but they are assholes.

[Dutch]

I'm not going to make a blanket statement about fat white guys with goatees in camo but they are assholes.

And you're a dick. AND DICKS FUCK ASSHOLES!

[Subby]

And you're a dick. AND DICKS FUCK ASSHOLES!
You're wearing camo right now aren't you.

I'm sorry. :D

[dawgfan]

You're wearing camo right now aren't you.

I'm sorry. :D
GET A ROOM

[CU Tiger]

Im a fat white guy with a goatee but no camo right now.

Shew that was close.

[cartman]

Cliven Bundy sent a certified letter to the sheriff of Harney County, the governor of Oregon, and Obama stating he is now the representative of the Branch Dildonians, and for police and federal agents to leave the wildlife refuge. Good luck with that.

[Dutch]

You're wearing camo right now aren't you.

I'm sorry. :D

Of course not, I'm a dick.

[Solecismic]

... Branch Dildonians... Good luck with that.

That's certainly quite a different interpretation of the Seventh Day Adventists and their prophecy of the Second Coming.

[NobodyHere]

Cliven Bundy, father of Ammon, arrested at Portland International Airport (http://katu.com/news/local/cliven-bundy-father-of-ammon-arrested-at-portland-international-airport)

[cartman]

The last 4 at the refuge are supposed to be surrendering at 8am Pacific. Well, they aren't calling it a surrender, they are trying to make it sound like they are agreeing to leave.

[cartman]

3 of the 4 have surrendered. Fry is the last one left, and he is freaking out at the moment. Things may not end well for him.

[cartman]

The last one was just taken into custody. He went on a bizarre rant before doing so. He finally agreed to come out if the agents outside all said 'hallelujah' at the same time.

[stevew]

Someone wanna explain the not guilty verdict here?

[PilotMan]

Jesus Christ.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Someone wanna explain the not guilty verdict here?

All I can really come up with is "jury nullification".

Past that, I'm stumped at the moment.

[nol]

All I can really come up with is "jury nullification".

Past that, I'm stumped at the moment.

That was the first thing I thougt as well. Anyways, the timing certainly couldn't be any better to embolden wannabe militiamen.

[RainMaker]

Is this for just the Oregon case? Aren't the Bundy's also up on charges for stuff in Nevada?

All I can think of is you have to prove they used threat of force and maybe that's tougher to prove than I thought.

LOL at the moron who got himself killed though during this stupid ordeal.

[chinaski]

Is this for just the Oregon case? Aren't the Bundy's also up on charges for stuff in Nevada?

All I can think of is you have to prove they used threat of force and maybe that's tougher to prove than I thought.

LOL at the moron who got himself killed though during this stupid ordeal.

Yeah just Oregon and the judge is refusing to release them and is extraditing them to Nevada.

[Chief Rum]

Yeah just Oregon and the judge is refusing to release them and is extraditing them to Nevada.

I read an article earlier on this that said the Bundys lawyer was "tackled by six U.S. marshals" immediately after the verdict was read or something like that. I was trying to figure out if I was reading a parody site at that point.

[PilotMan]

I read an article earlier on this that said the Bundys lawyer was "tackled by six U.S. marshals" immediately after the verdict was read or something like that. I was trying to figure out if I was reading a parody site at that point.
.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ammon Bundy's lawyer J Philpot says co-counsel Marcus Mumford was tased by marshals in courtroom <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/oregonstandoff?src=hash">#oregonstandoff</a> <a href="https://t.co/juu2uZHMB0">pic.twitter.com/juu2uZHMB0</a></p>&mdash; Maxine Bernstein (@maxoregonian) <a href="https://twitter.com/maxoregonian/status/791790253849784320">October 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/dsstella">@dsstella</a> Attorney Marcus Mumford was tackled to the ground in court after arguing his client should be free to go in light of the verdict</p>&mdash; MJfromLA (@MJfromLA) <a href="https://twitter.com/MJfromLA/status/791791543484977152">October 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[CU Tiger]

Nope. No personal vendetta by government officials here.
None.


When do we start the riots?

Hot take snapshot of another board I frequent this morning that is a tad more right leaning.

[wustin]

Someone wanna explain the not guilty verdict here?

Prosecutor's job is to convince the jury beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you have 15 informants within the militiamen possibly inciting them to do things then there's going to be doubt.

Agent provocateur - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur)

[cartman]

here's the reasoning from one of the jurors:

Juror 4: Oregon standoff prosecutors failed to prove 'intent' to impede federal workers | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/juror_4_prosecutors_in_oregon.html)

[cartman]

Dola:

This part stuck out to me:

Juror 4 noted the panel couldn't simply rely on the defendants' "defining actions'' to convict.

"All 12 agreed that impeding existed, even if as an effect of the occupation,'' he wrote.

"But we were not asked to judge on bullets and hurt feelings, rather to decide if any agreement was made with an illegal object in mind,'' the Marylhurst student wrote. "It seemed this basic, high standard of proof was lost upon the prosecution throughout.''

It sure would seem to me that keeping the federal workers out, and that their goal was to transfer the ownership of the refuge to the state by occupation would meet that proof.

[CU Tiger]

Dola:

This part stuck out to me:



It sure would seem to me that keeping the federal workers out, and that their goal was to transfer the ownership of the refuge to the state by occupation would meet that proof.


They werent charged with impeding, they were charged with conspiring.

They never presented any evidence that they ever discussed a plan.

Bad prosecutory charges?

[JonInMiddleGA]

They werent charged with impeding, they were charged with conspiring.

Which, I will note, is the exact opposite of at least two versions of the story I ready in the immediate aftermath yesterday. The article went so far as to detail why the impeding charge was the easiest to prove & why it was chosen.

It appears that you're right but you may have to give a pass to anyone who gets it wrong for now, because I definitely read just the opposite yesterday myself.

[RainMaker]

It sounds like the attorney was causing a scene and impeding the detainment of his client. But the use of a stun gun is way too much. If 6 US Marshals can't handle an attorney in a suit without the use of a stun gun, maybe they should be working in another line of work.

[wustin]

DickWhiskey comments on Oregon Malheur Refuge occupiers acquitted on all charges. (https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/59raa7/oregon_malheur_refuge_occupiers_acquitted_on_all/d9arogo/)

[flere-imsaho]

So, white guys with guns can occupy public land, destroy public property, and mess around with sacred Native American artifacts, but unarmed Native Americans can't peacefully (though civil disobediently) protest a pipeline which will threaten their lands and water supply?

Got it.

[wustin]

The prosecutors should've charged them for something else and not conspiracy. The whole thing was incompetence on their part because they couldn't hold up a cohesive narrative for the jury.

[MrBug708]

So, white guys with guns can occupy public land, destroy public property, and mess around with sacred Native American artifacts, but unarmed Native Americans can't peacefully (though civil disobediently) protest a pipeline which will threaten their lands and water supply?

Got it.

I saw that Facebook meme too

[Chief Rum]

.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ammon Bundy's lawyer J Philpot says co-counsel Marcus Mumford was tased by marshals in courtroom <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/oregonstandoff?src=hash">#oregonstandoff</a> <a href="https://t.co/juu2uZHMB0">pic.twitter.com/juu2uZHMB0</a></p>&mdash; Maxine Bernstein (@maxoregonian) <a href="https://twitter.com/maxoregonian/status/791790253849784320">October 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/dsstella">@dsstella</a> Attorney Marcus Mumford was tackled to the ground in court after arguing his client should be free to go in light of the verdict</p>&mdash; MJfromLA (@MJfromLA) <a href="https://twitter.com/MJfromLA/status/791791543484977152">October 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Marcus Mumford...isn't that the lead singer of Mumford & Sons?

[Shkspr]

Marcus Mumford...isn't that the lead singer of Mumford & Sons?

I bet they used one of those acoustic tasers.