NFL Playoffs - Conference Round

[Dutch]

Danny Kanell: Broncos should take late hit shots on Tom Brady (http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/danny-kanell-broncos-should-take-late-hit-shots-on-tom-brady/ar-BBoAup4?ocid=spartanntp)

I really wanted to read this article, but Danny Kanell apparently says "you know" and "like" throughout his message....so MSN put's each and everyone into their article....I couldn't take it anymore and quit reading.

In this day and age, especially in the realm of sports, do quoatables have to include all that crap???

[cthomer5000]

In this day and age, especially in the realm of sports, do quoatables have to include all that crap???

If I was quoting something really stupid I would insist on including them.

[mckerney]

Coin flip referee from Cardinals-Packers game assigned to Super Bowl 50 (http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/coin-flip-referee-from-cardinals-packers-game-assigned-to-super-bowl-50/ar-BBouGMG?li=BBnba9I)

I guess according to the rules the coin doesn't have to flip. So imagine the outrage if the second flip came out tails instead of heads a second time.

I thought for sure it would be the crew that left all the kicking balls back at their hotel.

[CU Tiger]

since there isnt a conference title thread...

Kind of surprised at how much pressure Denver is getting on Brady. Knew Denver's D was good, but this is better than I expected...

[bhlloy]

So far I am pleasantly surprised, I didn't think this was going to be that close. The Broncos game plan has been pretty much perfect on both sides of the ball so far.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Denver is making the plays on defense that KC missed out on. KC had two sure interceptions and dropped them both. Would have changed the game just like the two INT's from Denver have so far.

[bhlloy]

This Denver pass rush is incredible. They are clearly in Brady's head now, see if they can settle him down over half time

[CU Tiger]

Denver should be up at least another 7 maybe another 10.
They may live to regret not putting Brady away.

[Solecismic]

The Patriots are very lucky to be within 8 right now. Brady isn't accurate and he isn't making good decisions. I've never seen both in one game before. You can never rule Belichick out, but if this were any other team, I'd say this one's over.

[TroyF]

Denver is making the plays on defense that KC missed out on. KC had two sure interceptions and dropped them both. Would have changed the game just like the two INT's from Denver have so far.


I'm not really sure why people are surprised at the Denver defense. This IS the Denver defense and has been all year. You want to be one dimensional against this defense? Good luck. Remember, this was the defense you said was living off of their first half. Due to the KC injuries, they had 0 sacks adn 1 QB hit the entire game. Denver has 2 sacks and 8 QB hits in the first half.

The surprise to me is how well Manning has played. His numbers don't look great, but he's throwing the ball down the field and has been crisp. The Denver running game gets better as the game goes along due to the altitude.

The Patriots are going to adjust at halftime. I expect more passes to the running backs and I think they'll roll the pocket out a little to protect Brady. To win the game, Denver needs to make sure the turnover battle is even and continue to pressure Brady. Brady is NOT going to be held down all game. The question is if the Denver offense can have some success and the defense can get another turnover or two to ice it.

If the Denver offense dies, the Patriots will win this football game.

[cthomer5000]

Hah, love the surprise by his own teammates at Peyton running with the ball.

[kingfc22]

Pats o-line is getting embarrassed.

[cuervo72]

Stop running backwards to avoid sacks. You're not R. Wilson.

[cuervo72]

Creating a new thread for it.

[jeff061]

Pats o-line is getting embarrassed.

This is how their o line looks every week when they aren't getting it out in 1 second. They are just plain bad. Consistently.

[jeff061]

I'd love this shit Simms and Nantz tandem to zero in on why they haven't been able to get it out quickly like they have in every single other one of Edelmans games. As opposed to constantly harping on an offensive line that is playing at the same level they always do.

[Danny]

It would be nice to see a couple of mobile quarterbacks in Newton and manning going head to head in the super owl

[jeff061]

I'm not really sure why people are surprised at the Denver defense. This IS the Denver defense and has been all year. You want to be one dimensional against this defense? Good luck. Remember, this was the defense you said was living off of their first half. Due to the KC injuries, they had 0 sacks adn 1 QB hit the entire game. Denver has 2 sacks and 8 QB hits in the first half.

The surprise to me is how well Manning has played. His numbers don't look great, but he's throwing the ball down the field and has been crisp. The Denver running game gets better as the game goes along due to the altitude.

The Patriots are going to adjust at halftime. I expect more passes to the running backs and I think they'll roll the pocket out a little to protect Brady. To win the game, Denver needs to make sure the turnover battle is even and continue to pressure Brady. Brady is NOT going to be held down all game. The question is if the Denver offense can have some success and the defense can get another turnover or two to ice it.

If the Denver offense dies, the Patriots will win this football game.

These are exactly my thoughts at the half as well. Promising the defense for the Pats have stepped up since. But Pats need to get back in the end zone.

[Alf]

The Denver running game gets better as the game goes along due to the altitude.

And they just have a big rushing gain in Q4.

[miami_fan]

Hit them in the knees! WTF

[Edward64]

Rooting for Denver so Peyton can get his second and retire.

[cuervo72]

Man, they can't cover White can they.

[bob]

That was a pretty late flag on the defensive holding.

[JPhillips]

Terrible challenge. It would serve them right to see NE get the first down.

[cthomer5000]

This is gonna be hilarious when they rule it a catch, down by contact, and first down.

total WTF challenge by Denver.

[cuervo72]

Not sure that's a good challenge. I think if he DID have it (which I don't think he did), his knee might have been down before the ball came out.

[Glengoyne]

Best challenge ever!

Now if only the NFL can figure out if it was a catch.

[JPhillips]

Gronk: "He grabbed my arm.
My other shoulder.
My ribcage."

[JonInMiddleGA]

This is gonna be hilarious when they rule it a catch, down by contact, and first down.

total WTF challenge by Denver.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that was a bad move.

[cthomer5000]

I really wish teams would call a flea-flicker in that situation. Where everyone "knows" you're just going to run it an attempt to run out the clock.

[kingfc22]

Looking back at it. Pats probably should have kicked that FG on the first 4th down attempt. Their defense has held twice and given them shots at a TD.

[frnk55]

This is where NE pulls it out of their ass.

[cuervo72]

How stacked they were on the line I agree that they might have tried *something* other than a run. I know that we get on coaches for not exhausting timeouts and not running the clock, but the clock and the timeouts are a non-issue now. And they couldn't have really run off much time with the 2:00 warning sitting there.

[Glengoyne]

These last two drives/opportunities are really good demonstrations for why you don't go for it on fourth down with six and a half minutes left.

Because I'm pretty sure three field goals is nine points.

[sabotai]

Denver really missing their starting safeties now. Game is over if they're not hurt.

[cthomer5000]

Thank god for the super liberal intentional grounding rules these days, huh?

[cuervo72]

No shit. That one where he was spun around went near *nobody*.

[frnk55]

No surprise. NE never looses

[Edward64]

Great clutch TD catch.

[CU Tiger]

agreed about the (lack of) intentional grounding calls being close, but I guess I am glad they let them play

[kingfc22]

These last two drives/opportunities are really good demonstrations for why you don't go for it on fourth down with six and a half minutes left.

Because I'm pretty sure three field goals is nine points.

This.

[frnk55]

Thank God. I can watch the superbowl.

[Alf]

Don't they know it's going to get to Gronk ??

[bhlloy]

Miller has been getting held on every single play the whole drive. Game over anyway.

[JPhillips]

Get down Roby!

[CU Tiger]

1- Should have been a holding call before Brady ever threw the ball
2- Why in the blue hell didnt he get on the ground ASAP

[sabotai]

Would have been really something if a Pats player picked that fumble up and ran it in for the 2 point conversion.

[cuervo72]

Yay.

[frnk55]

Get down Roby!
WTF is he thinking?

[bhlloy]

Don't they know it's going to get to Gronk ??

They just can't stop it. I'm not sure I wouldn't try to have Von Miller as one of the guys to cover him, he's the only player who is big and athletic enough to do it. It sounds absurd to say you can't cover a guy with a safety and a corner, but you saw the results

[kingfc22]

Thank God. I can watch the superbowl.

Two weeks of "Will this be Manning's last game?" Joy....:rolleyes:

[JPhillips]

Manning winning a SB as a Trent Dilfer impersonator would be quite a story.

[SirFozzie]

Congrats to the Broncos. They played better. We were lucky to be in it at the end

[cuervo72]

WTF is he thinking?

Well...if he would have run it back (and he had what, one guy to beat?) that's a 4-point game, and makes an onsides kick/FG moot. Though yeah, other than that just get down.

[tucker rocky]

Never fails for a missed extra point to come into play at the end.

[jeff061]

Pats got what they deserved for backing into the playoffs. Denver played a great game and deserved to win. Congrats to them.

[Ben E Lou]

:)

[Edward64]

Yup, congrats Bronco and Peyton.

[Alf]

For once, Bellichick lost the game with the "no kicking" FG.

[JonInMiddleGA]

In honor of Royal Rumble Sunday, a little something for the Cheatriots

The New Age Outlaws we've got two words for you - YouTube (https://youtu.be/rBLAUClTKII)

[jeff061]

For once, Bellichick lost the game with the "no kicking" FG.

Huh?

[cthomer5000]

No, you should definitely have more plastic surgery. You can never have too much!

[Glengoyne]

For once, Bellichick lost the game with the "no kicking" FG.


That was so frustrating to watch, but I did say 'well it is Bellichick, he'll probably be right.'

[frnk55]

OMG!! Her face!!

[Marmel]

Manning 3-1 vs Brady in AFC title games. I like the sound of that!

[bhlloy]

Not kicking the FG to go to a 5 point game with that much time left really is a horrible move though, no matter who you are and who your QB is - especially when you saw what the Denver front did to him all game.

[TroyF]

My thoughts on the game:

1) I guess pissed off Brady can't win every game himself. What a shock.

2) The excuses the Patriots (players, this is not directed at anyone on this board) gave last game was garbage reffing and injuries. Well, if the two Denver safeties were not hurt, the game never gets to where it did. Second, Von Miller was held on just about every single Patriots play in the final 5 minutes of the game. It was comical. The stunning thing is he was still getting there.

3) Manning is now 3-1 against Brady in AFC Championship games. (no, Manning didn't win this game, but when NE beats Manning due to a better defense he gets the credit so fair is fair)

4) Even with the 2 4th down miracles, the Patriots went 4-19 on 3rd or 4th down situations. The Patriots went a combined 6-33 in those situations in the two games in Denver this year. There isn't really a need to go into any further stat than that one right there. Against the rest of the NFL the Patriots converted 43.98% of the time in those situations this year. Against the Denver defense, they converted 18.18% Game over.

5) The Broncos will be underdogs in the Superbowl vs no matter who they play. The gameplan will need to stay the exact same way as today. Limit turnovers, be good on third downs and keep running the football. (even if you don't get yards, run it no matter what) This defense will keep them in the game. (I'm assuming both safeties will be ready) The offense will need to do something.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Against 'Zona, I think Denver at least has a chance.
Against Carolina, things might get really really really ugly.

[rowech]

Not kicking the FG to go to a 5 point game with that much time left really is a horrible move though, no matter who you are and who your QB is - especially when you saw what the Denver front did to him all game.

Tough decision because they hadn't really been moving the ball the whole game. Either way it was both a good and bad decision at the same time. #Heisenberg

[Radii]

I'm loving the pressure from the Carolina D so far.

[bhlloy]

Refs letting a lot go in this one so far

[TroyF]

Against 'Zona, I think Denver at least has a chance.
Against Carolina, things might get really really really ugly.

I agree. . . but the gameplan can't change no matter who it is. Just like today, Denver really only has one way to win the football game. They try to do anything other than make the game ugly and they'll get throttled.

What the hell, I've dealt with plenty of Super Bowl blowouts before. Cowboys, Giants, Washington, 49ers, Seattle. . . . I've lived through all of them.

I will say that nothing would shock me with this defense. It's the real deal and has kept Denver in just about every game this season. (only KC was a two score game and it was only 29-13 despite the Chiefs starting field position being over the 50 yard line)

Panthers look scary good though.

[cthomer5000]

The Cardinals called that one straight out the Tecmo Super Bowl playbook.

[cthomer5000]

...that play never worked in Tecmo either.

[Eaglesfan27]

Carolina looks scary good.

[cuervo72]

Dang, he reared back on that one.

[frnk55]

Yikes. Might be time to watch some netflix :)

[bronconick]

If I turn this off, are they going to fall asleep in the second half?

[NobodyHere]

I'm starting to miss Manning vs Brady

[JPhillips]

I think it's time for X-Files.

[Radii]

If I turn this off, are they going to fall asleep in the second half?

I'd just recommend not turning it off given recent history :P

[miami_fan]

That was perfect execution of the Daniel Bryan running knee by the Arizona TE.

[Radii]

Davis isn't quite as important as Kuechly or Norman, but that is a big injury for Carolina :(

[TroyF]

Good lord.

[cthomer5000]

I always enjoy a guy signaling "my bad" when there is zero debate about whose fault something was.

[NobodyHere]

*facepalm*

[cuervo72]

1. I *think* they might have been checking if #42 touched the ball while he was out of bounds.
2. Did Ginn even SEE that ball?

[Galaril]

OMG!! Her face!!

Yes for sure frightening!

[cuervo72]

I always enjoy a guy signaling "my bad" when there is zero debate about whose fault something was.

I was yelling that at the screen/my wife. NO CRAP it was your fault, Peterson!

[cthomer5000]

That was a hilarious few minutes.

[Radii]

well that got weird to end the half.

[Galaril]

Against 'Zona, I think Denver at least has a chance.
Against Carolina, things might get really really really ugly.

I luv it! Sounds about what was coming out of Pats camp prior the game sowould be great for Denver. Frankly I could care less who wins the SB 50 this was the SB thi s afternoon for us ;-)

[tucker rocky]

Arizona shooting themselves in the foot.

Peterson muffs the punt,
Carolina scores TD,
Palmer fumbles the ball,
Newton throws INT,
Peterson returns to put them in excellent scoring range,
Palmer throws INT.

[Thomkal]

pretty disgusted with Palmer and the Cards right now. Just when I thought they were getting into a rhythm, the Peterson fumble was just horrible.

[Radii]

I would have liked to see a TD but burning 7 minutes and getting points to open the second half feels really important.

[JAG]

Holy Cam.

[JPhillips]

pretty disgusted with Palmer and the Cards right now. Just when I thought they were getting into a rhythm, the Peterson fumble was just horrible.

I feel your pain. This looks a lot like almost every Bengals playoff game since Palmer left.

[cthomer5000]

Arizona never really showed up for this one.

[Thomkal]

well I've seen enough. Congrats to the Panthers and their fans. At least I'll have a team to root for in the Super Bowl.

[Atocep]

Greg Olsen is going to end his career with a legit HoF case. I doubt he gets in, but if he played in a bigger market he'd be a lock with a Super Bowl win.

[cuervo72]

Sorry Thomkal, but congrats Radii.

[tucker rocky]

Carolina scores a TD, with the game in hand, goes for 2pt conversion.
What's the point?

[cthomer5000]

Go for 2 again. Run it up!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ain't no class in Carolina, but then again that ain't exactly breaking news.

[Easy Mac]

6 turnovers for Palmer, wow.

[miami_fan]

So many things I never thought I would see will happen in this Super Bowl. Here is just a few.

Gary Kubiak will be a head coach in a Super Bowl.
Ted Ginn Jr. will be the number one wide receiver for a team in the Super Bowl.
Mike Shula is the offensive mastermind for a team in the Super Bowl.

[Radii]

6 turnovers for Palmer, wow.

We call that going full Delhomme and you never want to see it happen to anyone.

[sabotai]

Super Bowl will have the two top defenses in yards per play. Denver #1 at 4.4, Carolina #2 at 4.9. Defense still wins championships.

[tucker rocky]

Save some points for the SB Carolina.

[Radii]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.


good game Cards.

[tucker rocky]

On a side note, Arizona and Carolina will meet again in the 2016 regular season, in Carolina.

If Carolina happens to win the SB, will Carolina open the season against Arizona?

[tucker rocky]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.


good game Cards.
https://youtu.be/hA0MTkHLO0g?t=5m44s

[jbergey22]

Carolina scores a TD, with the game in hand, goes for 2pt conversion.
What's the point?

They just go off of their two point conversion chart. If it says go they go, if it says kick they kick. Nothing evil about it.

[Galaril]

SEC vs PAC 10 in SB sort of might be reverse though.

[Radii]

broken arm for Thomas Davis :(

[Radii]

Carolina -4 over Denver is the early line being set it appears. I think that sounds about right. I would have expected either NFC team to be a small favorite (would have said Arizona -1 or something).

[Dutch]

So many things I never thought I would see will happen in this Super Bowl. Here is just a few.

Gary Kubiak will be a head coach in a Super Bowl.
Ted Ginn Jr. will be the number one wide receiver for a team in the Super Bowl.
Mike Shula is the offensive mastermind for a team in the Super Bowl.

Not in a billion years would anybody have ever taken that trifecta bet in Vegas. :)

[Wolfpack]

Carolina scores a TD, with the game in hand, goes for 2pt conversion.
What's the point?

They just go off of their two point conversion chart. If it says go they go, if it says kick they kick. Nothing evil about it.

As much as it sounds like running up the score, it does work strategically, even if the game was out of hand at the time. The two-pointer gave them a 27 point lead, which protected them from the unlikely scenario of three touchdowns, three two-point conversions, and a field goal beating them. After having nearly choked up games against the Giants, Packers, and Colts, I'm firmly in the camp of "beat them, bury them, and make sure they stay dead this time". :D

[bhlloy]

Cam vs the Broncos rush is going to be a fascinating matchup. If they can't get consistent pressure on him and keep him in the pocket, I'm not sure it's going to be close

[Dutch]

Super Bowl will have the two top defenses in yards per play. Denver #1 at 4.4, Carolina #2 at 4.9. Defense still wins championships.

Well, there's a silver lining for the future of the NFL. I'm really happy to see that. :)

[bhlloy]

broken arm for Thomas Davis :(

That absolutely fucking sucks. With all the injuries he's overcome and how well he's been playing - not a Panthers fan but this is a major downer

[EagleFan]

broken arm for Thomas Davis :(

I still don't understand what that tight end was trying to accomplish on that play.

[Galaril]

Cam vs the Broncos rush is going to be a fascinating matchup. If they can't get consistent pressure on him and keep him in the pocket, I'm not sure it's going to be close
Well we shall see. It ought to be fun.

[jbergey22]

Imagine if the Broncos had this defense 2 years ago. They would have won every game by 35 points.

[PilotMan]

Steeler fans are still left to wonder what if after today's game. I really felt like this was the season to make it happen. Next year could be good, but that's a long way away.

[jbergey22]

Steeler fans are still left to wonder what if after today's game. I really felt like this was the season to make it happen. Next year could be good, but that's a long way away.

With one of the top 5 running backs in the NFL back next year and you have to figure Tomlin will be all over fixing the defensive issues in the off season signs should be pointing upward for the Steelers. With Big Ben, Bell, and Brown the offense will surely be a top offense in the league again next year.

[TroyF]

Cam vs the Broncos rush is going to be a fascinating matchup. If they can't get consistent pressure on him and keep him in the pocket, I'm not sure it's going to be close


I think everyone is going to feel that way. The Panthers have looked frightening in their two wins. They really do just about everything well. If we are ranking each individual unit, there is zero doubt that the Broncos offense will be the 4th best unit on the field.

With the Patriots, I could come up with all sorts of scenarios as to why the Broncos would pull off the upset. The Patriots weren't that dominant all year, they can't run the football at all, they struggled on the road and the Denver defense was being criminally underrated by a lot of people. Still thought Denver would lose, but I could build a case.

This game? I can't build a case. Really, the only way Denver wins this game is if the defense is uber dominant and the offense doesn't turn the ball over. I mean turn the ball over at all. Even then, how is the Denver offense going to move the ball?

With all of that said, I have a feeling Denver will keep the game interesting. Maybe not win it, but they'll give their fans a sweat in the fourth quarter. Maybe that's fanboy in me talking, We'll see.

[Vince, Pt. II]

With one of the top 5 running backs in the NFL back next year and you have to figure Tomlin will be all over fixing the defensive issues in the off season signs should be pointing upward for the Steelers. With Big Ben, Bell, and Brown the offense will surely be a top offense in the league again next year.

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that a healthy Steelers team isn't the favorite for the AFC title next season.

[TroyF]

Imagine if the Broncos had this defense 2 years ago. They would have won every game by 35 points.


It would have been ridiculous. As it was, it would have been a much better Super Bowl if Denver hadn't been decimated by injuries. It wasn't talked about nearly as much at the time as it probably should have been.

Go ahead and take Von Miller, Chris Harris, Derek Wolfe off of this defense and tell me how good they would be? How about a weaker version of this defense? Well, all of those guys missed the AFC Title game and the Super Bowl along with both of our starting centers and a key DT.

No, you flip this defense to that team and it would have been a blood bath for the rest of the league and I do believe the Super Bowl would have turned out a lot different. This team may lose and they may get blown out in the Super Bowl. . . but they won't get intimidated like that team was. Not by a long shot.

[TroyF]

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that a healthy Steelers team isn't the favorite for the AFC title next season.


They were my favorite this year. I'm not so sure if Brown had been healthy that they wouldn't have beaten Denver last week and been in the title game this year.

No, their offense has a shot to be special next year. If they make any improvements on defense at all, they will be my favorite for the title.

[Abe Sargent]

Imagine if the Broncos had this defense 2 years ago. They would have won every game by 35 points.

Imagine if my Jags hadn't been saddled by stupid salary cap crap and injuries to Boselli and could have repeated in the early 00s going deep into the playoffs!




*Sigh*

[bhlloy]

I still don't understand what that tight end was trying to accomplish on that play.

Yeah - the broken arm is a fluke play, but in general for a league serious about reducing concussions I'm not sure you want guys throwing their knees at the area a defenders head needs to be to make a tackle.

Of course, the league seems to not really give a shit about keeping defensive players safe. Most of these hurdles are usually some large tight end that looks laughably bad and don't end up well for the offensive player either. Given some of the other things that are now a fifteen yard penalty for safety reasons I don't think it would be a massive detriment to the league to get rid of this play either

[stevew]

Is Von Miller worth 2 first rounders and probably the largest defensive contract ever? Maybe?

Edit-especially if you can do it after the draft this year.

Also sucks about Thomas Davis.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... and keep him in the pocket

There's the bit that has me expecting, sadly, a blowout.

[bhlloy]

Is Von Miller worth 2 first rounders and probably the largest defensive contract ever? Maybe?

Edit-especially if you can do it after the draft this year.

Also sucks about Thomas Davis.

I think he's easily worth that. The list of players who can have that big of an impact on a game on defense is pretty short and he might be at the top, with apologies to JJ Watt.

[stevew]

I forgot about the exclusive franchise tag. Denver will probably use that

[flere-imsaho]

Disappointed my Patriots lost, but have to credit that Denver D, both the line and the secondary. They were unbelievable.

[Buccaneer]

Disappointed my Patriots lost, but have to credit that Denver D, both the line and the secondary. They were unbelievable.

Same here.

[Kodos]

They're gonna need two weeks to get ready to play again. Talk about leaving it all on the field. Miller was a monster.

[QuikSand]

I hope we (the collective followership) can gin up some talk about the '85 Bears during the SB run-up. I think this year's Denver D is one for the ages. Was really glad to see them deliver that message so powerfully in the huge stage yesterday.

[QuikSand]

So, a side note here.

Two years ago, thogh it seems liek longer, we were watching the AFC playoffs with total awe. The Peyton Offense in Denver was a remarkable juggernaut (seriously, if you don't remember how awesome they were, I'll wait while you go check).

Meanwhile, scrappy New England was dealing with some manner of weird injuries and so forth (I honestly don't recall the details) - but they managed to advance in the playoffs and face Denver. Denver was a heavy favorite, but at the time I felt like there was a really intriguing subcurrent there.

Peyton Manning had already put himself into the elite tier of all time QBs, but always had the knock that he didn't deliver mightily in the postseason. Brady was the golden boy who did, despite not having the gaudy stats by and large. At the time, most people had those two guys pegged very close to one another in that barroom GOAT conversation. A healthy two-way debate. I would have taken Manning's side at one barstool, personally.

In the 2013-14 playoffs, the fascinating under-appreciated story was actually about Brady. WHAT IF Brady, with seemingly nothing around him, somehow engineered an upset of the might Broncos and went on to win yet another title? With what he had around him, I think that would have been a monstrous upset, and a remarkable entry into that GOAT convration. Maybe enough to put him into the driver's seat and forever separate him from Manning.

But with TWO different quarterbacks playing for major GOAT credentials at the same time - that seemed like a great moment. And it was obscured a bit by the totally amazeballs season that Team Peyton had assembled, and how he was the one going after history (win with two teams, greatest QB season ever, etc).

...

Any, fast forward to now. Brady is not even the MVP, but has clearly emerged as the top gun here, and a now-healthy Patriots team looks to go back to back. We are again talking about another entry into the GOAT conversation, but it's all about Brady. And deservedly so, right? Thy win out here, and he probably becomes the top guy on the consensus list for now and for 25 years from now.

But...let's not overlook Manning now. The storyline here, deservedly so, has been that the team has excelled around him, an even despite him this year. He is not his old self, and their judgment to get him back into the lineup is even questionable, given his obvious limitations.

But we again have a crazy and delicious WHAT IF, don't we? WHAT IF Denver wins this week, and gets to play against the golden boy and the (surely) favored Patriots? And WHAT IF Peyton plays well and really contributes to a win? Not a 400 yard passing game, necessarily, but what if he is throwing precision passes and calling all his audibles, and makes a signature gritty/clutch play or two? And they go on to win it all with him playing well?

What, then? The biggest Manning detractors are the anti-clutch types. But a title here with him at the helm, almost regardless of how much he contributes, would have to help his legacy a ton (think John Elway, who suddenly became a talented game manager handing off to Terrell Davis and forever escaped a psychological near-tie with Jim Kelly in the GOAT conversation). But if Manning actually WINS one of these games with the big play at the end or somesuch... what then?

You don't get this a lot. We saw it with Federer and Nadal in tennis, perhaps. No other recent examples come right to mind for me. Two guys, already cemented as legends, simultaneously battling for their exact place in history among the very to echelon of their shared set.

Brady seemed to put it to be last year with a great comeback season and improbable title. Maning seems done. But how fascinating would it be to see the tables turned here?

I'm not calling it. Hardly anyone is. If anything, we see Von Miller with a sack-strip-fumble-six as the face of any sort of Denver title run this year. But
I'm just saying...this sort of thing doesn't even come together on paper very often. It's usually only in your backyard, when you're making shit up as you go.

Reviving as still/more relevant.

[cartman]

I hope we (the collective followership) can gin up some talk about the '85 Bears during the SB run-up. I think this year's Denver D is one for the ages. Was really glad to see them deliver that message so powerfully in the huge stage yesterday.

As bad as he's been as a head coach, Wade Phillips is one hell of a defensive coordinator.

[Suicane75]

Does Peyton walk away if they win?

[bronconick]

Does Peyton walk away if they win?

I thought he was going to if they had won two years ago, TBH

[Dutch]

I still hate the decision to push extra-points back. The Broncos and Patriots both scored 2 TD's and both were 2 for 2 in FG's...yet the stupid xtra point reared it's ugly head, negating a fine comeback by the Patriots that would've...in years past tied the game (99% of the time) and sent it into overtime. (The early miss that would've normally been made and allowed the Pats another chip-shot.

I guess it helps keeps a % of games shorter but I won't budge on the ridiculousness of added weight applied to the extra-point in determining the outcome of games.

[cartman]

I still hate the decision to push extra-points back. The Broncos and Patriots both scored 2 TD's and both were 2 for 2 in FG's...yet the stupid xtra point reared it's ugly head, negating a fine comeback by the Patriots that would've...in years past tied the game (99% of the time) and sent it into overtime.

I guess it helps keeps a % of games shorter but I won't budge on the ridiculousness of added weight applied to the extra-point in determining the outcome of games.

If it doesn't affect the outcome of a game, why even have it at all?

[Dutch]

If it doesn't affect the outcome of a game, why even have it at all?

I am a proponent of his making TDs worth 7 points....with the option of going for "2"...and if it fails you, you "lose" a point and just get 6.

[TroyF]

I hope we (the collective followership) can gin up some talk about the '85 Bears during the SB run-up. I think this year's Denver D is one for the ages. Was really glad to see them deliver that message so powerfully in the huge stage yesterday.


I'm going to pick on a fellow poster, but only because I'm making a larger point. At the start of the playoffs, we had one person here who said the Denver D was living off of their first half and hadn't been good for awhile. The reason I highlight the comment is because of how many other people believe it to be true.

I wrote a long post counteracting the nonsense, but I think people have missed the point of this defense all year. The Broncos forced the 7th most turnovers in the NFL this year and they finished with a -4 turnover ratio.

The Broncos offense turned the ball over 31 times this year. That would be the 3rd most in the entire league. Take a look at the rest of the teams with a negative turnover ratio and see how many made the playoffs. That would be zero. It's all because of this defense.

If the Denver defense wants to be talked about with those teams, they will need to dismantle Carolina. Sadly, the Broncos offense is so poor I'm not sure that can happen.

[TroyF]

Does Peyton walk away if they win?


I think he walks away no matter what.

[TroyF]

Reviving as still/more relevant.


This played out almost exactly as you said. Manning wasn't great, but he was more than good enough.

Now Manning is 3-1 against Brady in championship games.

I surveyed forums and comments on this stuff last night and it was about as expected by the fan boys. The Broncos/Colts fans going "Manning is 3-1 against Brady in championship games, enough with the clutch BS" and the Patriots fans holding up the Super Bow rings and telling everyone else to STFU.

One thing is for sure: If Manning had played like Brady did yesterday, very few people on the Brady GOAT side would have defended him. When talking about the one and dones, none of them ever wipe out a Manning loss by saying "Well, the Steelers overwhelmed him, that defense was terrific" or "That Dolphins loss doesn't count because his idiot kicker missed a FG"

I think in the long term, this will help the Manning legacy. It kills Patriots fans to know that Manning is now 3-2 in playoff games against Brady. They can make all the excuses they want, the record is the record. (that type of argument should sound very familiar to many of the Patriots fans who get into this debate)

My personal reality is summed up like this:

1) It took me far to long to appreciate Brady. Even in his early Super Bowls he was better than I gave him credit for.

2) It took me to long to appreciate what I was watching in these Brady/Manning games. Instead of being caught up in who was better, I didn't pay attention to the fact I was watching 2 of the greatest ever duel.

3) With a gun to my head, two average coaches, two average skill position talent levels across the rest of their teams, I take Manning.

4) If someone has the opinion of, but, but, but Super Bowls. . . I'll just point out that I would take Manning over Bradshaw, the other Manning, Bart Starr, and Troy Aikman too.

5) That doesn't mean I don't have respect for Brady. I don't like the guy. . . but what a damned player. If Stewart had been in the game yesterday, that pass to Gronk down the seam never gets completed. But Brady knew he wasn't in the game and the throw he made was stunning. Simply stunning.

[Dutch]

Cam Newton vs The Sheriff :)

Why is Peyton Manning’s nickname 'The Sheriff’? - SBNation.com (http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2016/1/25/10826002/peyton-manning-broncos-nickname-the-sheriff-cam-newton-panthers-super-bowl)

[molson]

The Broncos got 20 QB hits, which is the most of any team in a game since 2006. Brady was only hit 18 times in the entire playoffs last year. It was really fortunate that he got through this season without being injured.

[Kodos]

1) It took me far to long to appreciate Brady. Even in his early Super Bowls he was better than I gave him credit for.

2) It took me to long to appreciate what I was watching in these Brady/Manning games. Instead of being caught up in who was better, I didn't pay attention to the fact I was watching 2 of the greatest ever duel.

3) With a gun to my head, two average coaches, two average skill position talent levels across the rest of their teams, I take Manning.

4) If someone has the opinion of, but, but, but Super Bowls. . . I'll just point out that I would take Manning over Bradshaw, the other Manning, Bart Starr, and Troy Aikman too.

5) That doesn't mean I don't have respect for Brady. I don't like the guy. . . but what a damned player. If Stewart had been in the game yesterday, that pass to Gronk down the seam never gets completed. But Brady knew he wasn't in the game and the throw he made was stunning. Simply stunning.

Like you, I don't like Brady. But he is one hell of a QB, and I have to respect his never-say-die attitude. He is a tough out. I was not comfortable until the onside kick was recovered. I've seen him pull too many rabbits out of hats over the years.

Really, yesterday's game was the opposite of what we usually get in Manning-Brady games. This time, Manning had the superior defense that shut down much of what Brady wanted to do. Often in the past, the Patriots have had a superior defense that shut down Manning's receivers with physical play. Even the greats crumble under constant pressure or when no receivers are coming open.

Yesterday, the Pats were not getting the small breaks that add up to wins that they have gotten so often in the past. How many receptions did James White just barely miss yesterday? It seems like Manning has usually been the one dealing with a kicker's failure or a drop or near misses. It was nice to see the script flipped.

It'll be a sad day for me when Peyton hangs 'em up. And I think he should after this season, regardless of what happens in the Super Bowl. Time catches up to us all. Even the greats.

[Kodos]

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t446/KodosForPrez/SpeedKills_zpswhqinbjb.png (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/KodosForPrez/media/SpeedKills_zpswhqinbjb.png.html)

[bhlloy]

Sounds like Davis had surgery already and is trying to get back for the game. Doesn't sound doable to me but I guess I don't have any info on how severe the break was

[jbergey22]

What is it about Brady that make people not like him? Seems to fit the American hero criteria to me. Underdog, hard working, clutch performer, winner. Is it because he married models and wins a lot of football games?

[Kodos]

For me, it's the constant begging for calls, along with some of his off-field stuff. (Knocking up girlfriend, dumping her for a super model for instance.)

"We're only gonna score 17 points?"

[EagleFan]

What is it about Brady that make people not like him? Seems to fit the American hero criteria to me. Underdog, hard working, clutch performer, winner. Is it because he married models and wins a lot of football games?

It's that he comes across as a self-entitled above the law punk. Whines about everything that doesn't go his way, nothing is his fault. That is not all-American hero type; that is royal douchebag type.

[panerd]

What is it about Brady that make people not like him? Seems to fit the American hero criteria to me. Underdog, hard working, clutch performer, winner. Is it because he married models and wins a lot of football games?

Can't speak for everyone but Bill Simmons fuels my dislike of him and most things Boston. (And I am a fan of Simmons) The two years he has been my fantasy QB I have loved him.

[Abe Sargent]

I agree he seems very entitled and a bit of a pirck. Now to be fair to Brady, there are some other QBs strike me as worse than Brady in that regard (Cutler/Rivers). But Brady counts too.

[albionmoonlight]

If Denver loses the Super Bowl, it will get lost to history, but for whatever it is worth, Wade Phillips just called one of the best games I've ever seen by a coordinator.

[jeff061]

Maybe I haven't gotten the full details, but dropping everyone back into coverage to clog up the timing routes and rushing 3/4 against a college level o-line isn't really a stroke of genius. I believe I said that would be the best way to go about it before the game even started. If Edelman couldn't get open for timing routes it would be game over, because they can't run and they can't go down field with their offensive line. No team had prevented Edelman from tearing them up on 1 second drop backs until now.

Denver had a fairly obvious game plan and executed it perfectly.

[TroyF]

Maybe I haven't gotten the full details, but dropping everyone back into coverage to clog up the timing routes and rushing 3/4 against a college level o-line isn't really a stroke of genius. I believe I said that would be the best way to go about it before the game even started. If Edelman couldn't get open for timing routes it would be game over, because they can't run and they can't go down field with their offensive line. No team had prevented Edelman from tearing them up on 1 second drop backs until now.

Denver had a fairly obvious game plan and executed it perfectly.

I could not disagree more with this. The "obvious" gameplan was to rush 3 guys on Brady 15 times? Or when the Broncos did blitz, how perfectly timed were they? Was it "obvious" to drop Miller into coverage on Gronk which surprised the hell out of Brady?

Don't get me wrong, the Patriots did make it easy with their lack of a running game. (something I pointed out before and during the game)

Even with that, the timing of the calls, the changeups he gave Brady throughout the day and the changing schemes they used were sensational. If the gameplan was so easy going in, why did everyone in the world think the Patriots would win the game?

[jbergey22]

If the gameplan was so easy going in, why did everyone in the world think the Patriots would win the game?

It was much more balanced than this. Most of ESPN's talking heads thought New England would win which is usually the auto sign that the opposite team would win. The betting action was split down the middle at 3 points even dropping the line a half point to 3.

Anyone that had paid attention to New Englands offensive line struggles had to know this was not going to be any cupcake game for them. Mixing that in with the home field advantage and high altitude this game had pick em all over it.

[jeff061]

Because the Broncos executed the plan better than most people thought they could against the Pats. Just because a strategy is obvious doesn't mean everyone can execute it well enough to win.

It's like the tired old "Blueprint for beating Brady"(this goes back years, not this season/game), "If you can rush 4 and pressure him that's how to win". Well no shit, that applies to every single QB in the league, but most teams can't rush 4 and consistently pressure the QB.

This year just about every team was able to do that against the Pats, but Edelman was consistently getting open inside 2 seconds on timing routes and that was the gameplan to cover for a line that could neither run nor pass block. Even with Gronk in the game, if Edelman was injured not only did the offense struggle but the entire game plan was changed.

The Broncos were the first team all season to keep Edelman in check. With that being the case, they could tee off Brady just like basement teams were doing when Edelman was injured.

[cuervo72]

It was much more balanced than this. Most of ESPN's talking heads thought New England would win which is usually the auto sign that the opposite team would win. The betting action was split down the middle at 3 points even dropping the line a half point to 3.

Anyone that had paid attention to New Englands offensive line struggles had to know this was not going to be any cupcake game for them. Mixing that in with the home field advantage and high altitude this game had pick em all over it.

I think Tony Gonzalez was the only one of the CBS bunch who picked DEN (and the only one who picked CAR too, IIRC).

[jeff061]

Also, for what it's worth. I'm kind of surprised people are giving Belichick flack for not taking the FG. Hindsight 20/20, obviously the outcome would have been better. But Denver was consistently shutting their offense down all game, I'd take the odds of picking up that 4th and punching it in over driving 80 yards.

[TroyF]

What is it about Brady that make people not like him? Seems to fit the American hero criteria to me. Underdog, hard working, clutch performer, winner. Is it because he married models and wins a lot of football games?


What others have said. What was stunning yesterday is that he didn't whine to the refs. It was quite shocking, because the first times these teams played he was crying to them the entire game. Every single time he got hit in that first game he was bawling.

The other thing that bothers me is the whole ANGRY Brady persona he gives off and half the world buys into. Brady isn't happy about "pick topic" so everyone better watch out. Really? Are we all in grade school?

Do a search for "Angry Brady" and you'll find about 1.5 million topics. I remember when Brady came into Denver during the Tebow era, rushed for a TD and made sure everyone in the world knew he was better than Tim Tebow. He is "enraged" at Deflategate so the rest of the NFL needs to worry. He has never been so angry after a loss (the first Denver game this year, his words by the way) The Broncos talked some trash to Brady this week, that's not a good idea, you don't want to make Brady mad.

Ugh. Enough. I know it is what drives him, just like Rhonda Rousey is driven by any sign of disrespect. That's wonderful, but I end up not liking those people. I get really sick of hearing how angry they are all the time

Note: The above is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. That opinion doesn't impact what I think of Brady the QB. I did not say in the above "I hate Tom Brady, so therefore he's the 75th ranked QB in history" I just said I don't like him. I think Brady gets through his days just fine without my fan mail, so it's all good.

[jeff061]

You guys just wait until Brady retires and he's known for his high profile snake oil selling business. Which he's already laid the groundwork for. You don't know what hate is yet.

[JPhillips]

You guys just wait until Brady retires and he's known for his high profile snake oil selling business. Which he's already laid the groundwork for. You don't know what hate is yet.

That won't come until after he serves as Trump's VP.

[TroyF]

It was much more balanced than this. Most of ESPN's talking heads thought New England would win which is usually the auto sign that the opposite team would win. The betting action was split down the middle at 3 points even dropping the line a half point to 3.

Anyone that had paid attention to New Englands offensive line struggles had to know this was not going to be any cupcake game for them. Mixing that in with the home field advantage and high altitude this game had pick em all over it.


Denver was a 3 point underdog on their home field. The sharps went with Denver when the line was pushed to 3.5 and forced the casinos to drop it back to 3. There was a huge article on ESPN about the money coming in on the Patriots.

When it came to any expert talking heads, it was well over 80% to the Patriots. Pro Football Focus (2 of 11 predictors picked the Broncos), LA Times, Arizona times, Pro football talk, Football Insiders. . . I could go on and on and on.

Look, this isn't me crying about any of that. The Patriots were 3 point favorites on the road against a team who beat them earlier in the year and had the #1 ranked defense in the league. I felt the Patriots would win the game. But I think it's amusing that it's being spun that it was close to even. It was not being spun that way at all.

[jbergey22]

Denver was a 3 point underdog on their home field. The sharps went with Denver when the line was pushed to 3.5 and forced the casinos to drop it back to 3. There was a huge article on ESPN about the money coming in on the Patriots.

When it came to any expert talking heads, it was well over 80% to the Patriots. Pro Football Focus (2 of 11 predictors picked the Broncos), LA Times, Arizona times, Pro football talk, Football Insiders. . . I could go on and on and on.

Look, this isn't me crying about any of that. The Patriots were 3 point favorites on the road against a team who beat them earlier in the year and had the #1 ranked defense in the league. I felt the Patriots would win the game. But I think it's amusing that it's being spun that it was close to even. It was not being spun that way at all.

IF everyone and their mother were on the Pats(articles people read and shows people watch) yet the line drops from 3.5 down to 3 it should tell you all you need the know. The opinions were more balanced than you think. Not everyone follows them shows or base their opinions on what them people say.

[TroyF]

IF everyone and their mother were on the Pats(articles people read and shows people watch) yet the line drops from 3.5 down to 3 it should tell you all you need the know. The opinions were more balanced than you think. Not everyone follows them shows or base their opinions on what them people say.

It went down to 3 due to the sharps, the professional gamblers. Of the public picks, well over 80% went for the Patriots. That's all. A vast majority of people (bettors and fans and experts alike) felt the Patriots were going to win that football game. To spin that any other way is simply wrong.

[jbergey22]

It went down to 3 due to the sharps, the professional gamblers. Of the public picks, well over 80% went for the Patriots. That's all. A vast majority of people (bettors and fans and experts alike) felt the Patriots were going to win that football game. To spin that any other way is simply wrong.

The offshore sportsbooks had 53 percent of the bets placed on New England, 47 percent on Denver. Source sportsinsights.com

Most of our traditional sharp money indicators point towards value on the Broncos, but those offshore money percentages are fairly disconcerting. Whenever there is this level of contradicting information, the best course of action is usually to lay off. That said, it will be interesting to see whether there is immediate buy back if market-setting books offer Denver +3.5.

[TroyF]

The offshore sportsbooks had 53 percent of the bets placed on New England, 47 percent on Denver. Source sportsinsights.com


And was that straight up or with the spread? All 47% of bettors who placed bets on the Broncos didn't think they would win the football game. If they bet early and got on the 3.5 train, a lot of them (including the sharps) thought the game would be within a FG.

We should have taken a poll on here. My guess is 80% of FOFC would have picked New England. Most of the other experts who put themselves out publicly picked the Patriots. Maybe my perception is wrong, but I certainly didn't get the vibe around what I saw that the Broncos had much of a chance.

If your opinion is 47% of the public thought the Broncos would win the game, I'll just have to say that isn't my experience at all and be done with this.

[jbergey22]

And was that straight up or with the spread? All 47% of bettors who placed bets on the Broncos didn't think they would win the football game. If they bet early and got on the 3.5 train, a lot of them (including the sharps) thought the game would be within a FG.

We should have taken a poll on here. My guess is 80% of FOFC would have picked New England. Most of the other experts who put themselves out publicly picked the Patriots. Maybe my perception is wrong, but I certainly didn't get the vibe around what I saw that the Broncos had much of a chance.

If your opinion is 47% of the public thought the Broncos would win the game, I'll just have to say that isn't my experience at all and be done with this.

I am not saying people as in you yourself. But people get caught up into anything ESPN says and that floods the market with that idea. I am sure the majority of people did think New England would win straight up but there are still some level headed people out there that dont just follow the crowd.

66 percent were on New England ML, 59 percent on the over in that game. For comparison 66 percent bet on Carolina and 56 percent were on the under.

Cris Carter was the only ESPN guy I heard making a case for a Denver win which I thought was ridiculous. Denver is one of the hardest places to win in all of sports because of the altitude and not being used to it. Being the #1 seed in their home stadium just struck me as odd with all of these "experts" apparently putting no stock in home field advantage. The way ESPN talked it was the Browns going into New England for the AFC Championship.

[TroyF]

I am not saying people as in you yourself. But people get caught up into anything ESPN says and that floods the market with that idea. I am sure the majority of people did think New England would win straight up but there are still some level headed people out there that dont just follow the crowd.

66 percent were on New England ML, 59 percent on the over in that game. For comparison 66 percent bet on Carolina and 56 percent were on the under.

Cris Carter was the only ESPN guy I heard making a case for a Denver win which I thought was ridiculous. Denver is one of the hardest places to win in all of sports because of the altitude and not being used to it. Being the #1 seed in their home stadium just struck me as odd with all of these "experts" apparently putting no stock in home field advantage. The way ESPN talked it was the Browns going into New England for the AFC Championship.


Again, it wasn't just ESPN. A vast majority of the internet "experts" were picking the Patriots like it was a given. Mark Schlereth, a former Bronco player, said he would be SHOCKED if Denver won the football game.

I read other "experts" who were saying the same things. I was shocked at the amount of people who thought that not only would the Patriots win the game, they would blow the Broncos out. It was pretty stunning to me.

It also bothered a lot of the Broncos players. A quote from TJ Ward:

"We felt like we were totally disrespected by everybody in the media," safety T.J. Ward (http://247sports.com/Player/T-J-Ward-75909) said, via Andrew Mason of the team website (https://twitter.com/MaseDenver/status/691443890168004612). "I don't think I heard one telecast about us winning. And as good a defense as we've been playing all year, that was the focal point: that Tom Brady was going to shred us apart. So we took total disrespect to that. Total disrespect."

That isn't why Denver won the game. But if you believe in that sort of thing, as pissed off as Brady was at the league and at the first Broncos game, the Broncos were just as pissed off the other way.

[TroyF]

Kodos,

17 MPH. SEVENTEEN MPH.

Latimer had quite the game on special teams by the way.

[PilotMan]

My guess is 80% of FOFC would have picked New England.

Count me in that group.

[flere-imsaho]

Hey guys, data!

Tom Brady Couldn’t Take The Pressure | FiveThirtyEight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tom-brady-couldnt-take-the-pressure/)

[flere-imsaho]

My guess is 80% of FOFC would have picked New England.

Not me, but only because I approach every New England playoff game with a fatalistic sense of doom. :D

[albionmoonlight]

I thought the Pats were going to win. I would have bet them at -3.5 without hesitation. Heck, I was all ready to come onto FOFC and post my theory that injuries have become such a part of the NFL that all that really matters is who is healthiest come January.

[Kodos]

Kodos,

17 MPH. SEVENTEEN MPH.

Latimer had quite the game on special teams by the way.

Yeah, Latimer has been really good on special teams. He caused at least two fumbles by punt returners this season. He's going the Terrell Davis route of making enough plays on special teams to earn some snaps on offense.

[Abe Sargent]

Not me, but only because I approach every New England playoff game with a fatalistic sense of doom. :D

During one of the great post-season runs by a franchise in NFL history? That must make you feel really really disconnected from reality.

[flere-imsaho]

I didn't say I was being rational.

One of the great things about sports fandom is that if you're absolutely normal in all (or most) other ways, it gives you temporary license to be completely inexplicable. At least that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

[molson]

And every team, even the Patriots, are going to end most of their seasons with a loss short of the championship. I find its much more satisfying to be a sports fan who generally assumes the worst and is pleasantly surprised with any success.