FOF8 Review Reminder

[Ben E Lou]

In my opinion, Jim has gone above and beyond with the 8.0a patch, and with the feature set of this release in general. I think it'd be fitting if we help him out with some positive reviews, and by upvoting other positive reviews. Keep in mind that all of us have a vested interest in the game getting positive reviews. Better reviews = more sales = more incentive for Jim to invest more time/energy in future FOF/TCY versions. Plus, for the MP crowd, of course more sales = more people to fill our leagues.

So let's get those reviews cranked up, and remember to thumbs-up other positive reviews as "Helpful" as well.

LINK: Front Office Football Eight on Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/app/547900)

[Ben E Lou]

Bump/reminder for the upcoming weekend.

[MizzouRah]

Done

[eddieballgame]

Done

[wthomp]

Me too!!

[redfox000]

Me three!!

[NoxMortem]

Why the hell did no one tell me that FOF8 is out? Since when? I own FOF7 and at least expected to get a steam notification as an owner. If there is no way for the devs to guarantee that I would suggest to send out 10% coupons to everyone owning the last version next time, this is how I. Have seen it done before on steam.

What has changed? What are the new features? Where can I find a summary?

[Ben E Lou]

Why the hell did no one tell me that FOF8 is out? Since when? I own FOF7 and at least expected to get a steam notification as an owner. If there is no way for the devs to guarantee that I would suggest to send out 10% coupons to everyone owning the last version next time, this is how I. Have seen it done before on steam.

What has changed? What are the new features? Where can I find a summary?Lots of info here: Front Office Football Eight on Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/app/547900)

and at http://www.solecismic.com

[Squirrel]

Just bumping this again as I was reminded by Jim tweeting it today.

Somehow I hadn't already done this - I just went onto Steam and put that right.

[QuikSand]

For a small game without a marketing effort behind it, reviews (especially those directly on Steam) really can be make or break.

I don't consider this game perfect, but I really really like this kind of game. And I like this one in particular. I really want to be able to keep playing it.

There's a role to play for those of us who feel that way about this series, and this genre. Without asking anyone to betray principles (i.e. don't lie), I really think it's in our interest be posting our reviews and support, even if it's redundant.

[Ben E Lou]

Bumping this in light of this post (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=92794).

[Mobarak]

This may come off a little to negative but just being honest. I wouldn't know what to say in a review. I'm sure the majority of players lose interest in Single Player as far as taking it seriously and not just using it for testing. Multi player is the only things this game is really about and it's just not that attractive for most people. Be honest, how many people have you talked to in real life and were able to convince them to buy the game, they did and still play today. I bet that number isn't very high.

It's really difficult to be/stay excited about something that takes you 15 minutes every other day to do. Just because we/us like it, the vast majority of even die hard football fans wouldn't bother, most don't even play fantasy.

I've seen zero new leagues start other than the CCFL and I believe that was an older league converted, maybe I'm wrong. Coming into a 50 year league is not nearly as appealing as starting new with committed players (I understand people have put a lot of time into their teams and don't want to just lose them). If it weren't for Ben's leagues I would almost certainly have lost interest months ago, there is no way I'm going to make 15-20 minutes worth of decisions and wait 48 hours to get the results, and still be excited about it, year after year.

I bought 7 just to see this interface, maybe for a single monitor its better. FoF8 is superior in every way as far as I can tell other than that. This idea the interface is what is stopping "new" players from buying the game is just not true. The slow pace of the multi player environment makes this game little more than a part-time hobby for most and a part-time hobby is easy to forget about.

Don't take this post personally, I love you all =)

[Mobarak]

To be clear about what I'm saying, If you have to sim everyday, then you are forced to spend more time on a daily basis for that team. It naturally becomes more interesting as you are seeing the results of your decisions faster. People develop a routine and are less likely to drop out.

[bdubbs]

This may come off a little to negative but just being honest. I wouldn't know what to say in a review. I'm sure the majority of players lose interest in Single Player as far as taking it seriously and not just using it for testing. Multi player is the only things this game is really about and it's just not that attractive for most people. Be honest, how many people have you talked to in real life and were able to convince them to buy the game, they did and still play today. I bet that number isn't very high.

It's really difficult to be/stay excited about something that takes you 15 minutes every other day to do. Just because we/us like it, the vast majority of even die hard football fans wouldn't bother, most don't even play fantasy.

I've seen zero new leagues start other than the CCFL and I believe that was an older league converted, maybe I'm wrong. Coming into a 50 year league is not nearly as appealing as starting new with committed players (I understand people have put a lot of time into their teams and don't want to just lose them). If it weren't for Ben's leagues I would almost certainly have lost interest months ago, there is no way I'm going to make 15-20 minutes worth of decisions and wait 48 hours to get the results, and still be excited about it, year after year.

I bought 7 just to see this interface, maybe for a single monitor its better. FoF8 is superior in every way as far as I can tell other than that. This idea the interface is what is stopping "new" players from buying the game is just not true. The slow pace of the multi player environment makes this game little more than a part-time hobby for most and a part-time hobby is easy to forget about.

Don't take this post personally, I love you all =)

Burn the Witch!!! :devil:

But seriously, I don't think anyone on these boards is under the illusion that this game is for everyone or would suggest that we should be writing these reviews to try and make the game seem better than it is. It has its flaws and a game of this style is naturally going to appeal to less people but it still means something to a prospective buyer if the owners of the game will actually go out of their way for a minute to say they liked it. The MP leagues are an NFL fanboy's dream in my opinion. There's no reason why you can't include that this game probably won't appeal to the majority of people in your review, I did.

[Mobarak]

No I get you, I'll get around to writing a review sometime soon. This is a great game but I have a feeling it's going to end up the core of a much larger game at some point. Hopefully.

[PikeStance]

Tbh, the speed of MP games are set by the leagues. If they were faster some leagues will suffer as there are many people who play in multiple leagues. I also find the SP unappealing. I played a couple of seasons and lost interest. On a whim I decided to give MP league a shot and the game is more entertaining.

It would be nice for the game to have a graphical representation of the game. The "radio" broadcast is nice but I would love to see it in action. The downside is people are idiots and they start to want more realism forgetting that they are merely looking at a representation l.

[Sharkn20]

Animations, like OOTP has, would be a huge addition for those players who are more "visual" and like to see their players in action.

[garion333]

I haven't written a review on Steam in large part because I still want to thumbs down it. The UI is honestly that bad to me.

[AlexB]

I haven't written a review on Steam in large part because I still want to thumbs down it. The UI is honestly that bad to me.

Same here

[Ben E Lou]

I haven't written a review on Steam in large part because I still want to thumbs down it. The UI is honestly that bad to me.Same hereSo--in light of the post we saw earlier--rather than increase the game's exposure and in so doing increase the odds of there being another FOF, both of you'd rather...I'm not sure what....just sit back and let a game that you've enjoyed and would like to see improved just die? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me in a field where there are no other viable options. Other than giving the developer feedback on specific items for improvement, positive Steam reviews seem to be the most direct way we can help improve the game.

[Mobarak]

My question is how has this game been around for over a decade and there are so few players.. I joined 7 leagues when I first jumped into MP cause i thought that would be fun.. every league had the same 15 people in it with a rotating group of ten others or so. Maybe the problem has progressed past the point of "How do we get our players to stop leaving the game after purchasing it". As you stated Ben there really isn't another viable option.. and I have spent a bit looking into it. With that said something has gone horribly wrong for a very long time to cause so many people to abandon the game after buying it in the previous versions.. They obviously didn't leave for another option.

[AlexB]

A postive Steam review from me would be hypocritical, and I can't endorse a product that I do not think deserves it, and do not want to contribute towards potentially influencing someone to spend £25 that I don't believe is money well spent.

However, I have loved FOF for 12 years, and continue to love FOF7, so in light of this and so as not to directly negatively affect Jim, my not reviewing the game is a net positive, and I have taken care not to post anything critical in the Steam discussion forum either.

[Ben E Lou]

potentially influencing someone to spend £25 that I don't believe is money well spentHow can you be so sure about that? Lots of people have posted that they enjoy the game. Do you believe that they're lying? Just because you don't enjoy the game doesn't mean that for someone else it isn't money well spent. (Not to mention that we're talking about a trivial amount of money anyway...)

[AlexB]

How can you be so sure about that? Lots of people have posted that they enjoy the game. Do you believe that they're lying? Just because you don't enjoy the game doesn't mean that for someone else it isn't money well spent. (Not to mention that we're talking about a trivial amount of money anyway...)

It's my opinion! Other people aren't lying, they enjoy it, that's their opinion: they can put up positive reviews.

If I was to put up a positive review, I would be lying.

Why should my opinion have to be the same as others/yours? :confused:

[Ben E Lou]

Why should my opinion have to be the same as others/yours? :confused:I'm not suggesting that anyone have a similar opinion. I just want more/improved FOFs. It seems silly to shoot your own hobby in the foot because....something.

"Many users are enjoying this game.

PROS: blah blah blah
CONS: Some find the interface to be a turn-off."

thumbs-up


No lie. It adds to the overall score and therefore helps improve the game. And it has nothing to do with our opinions being similar.

[AlexB]

I'm not suggesting that anyone have a similar opinion. I just want more/improved FOFs. It seems silly to shoot your own hobby in the foot because....something.

"Many users are enjoying this game.

PROS: blah blah blah
CONS: Some find the interface to be a turn-off."

thumbs-up


No lie. It adds to the overall score and therefore helps improve the game. And it has nothing to do with our opinions being similar.

It's not just the UI, I don't like the way you have to have defensive player personnel in certain packages only, and offensive substitutions are broken. The FOF7 depth charts were for me significantly better for starting defense, and back-ups/substitutions on both sides of the ball in FOF8.

I saw Jim was looking at offensive subs, which may make a difference to my opinion, but I doubt it tbh. But I'm not going to delete 8 until that fix comes out to see if it does in fact tip the balance.

The playbooks idea is good but I find overwhelming, but I didn't gameplan in FOF7 either, so that was no better/worse for me.

A Steam review should IMO be that user's opinion of the game, not a user's understanding of what other people think - that's what the percentage of positive/negative reviews and 'generally positive', 'mixed', etc, summaries are for.

Literally the only things I liked more in FOF8 than 7 are the ability to have multiple player screens open at the same time and being able to quick sim an instant history. I found I can live without both (would prefer to have them, but can live without them)

I can't live with the menu system, the poor offensive substitutions (which I picked up in about two hours, one preseason and a couple of regular season games: it didn't need 100 year test careers, but it's good news that it is likely to be fixed) and the defensive personnel screen and substitutions: for me these critical elements far outweigh two positives that I can live without.

In short, I don't like a number of the key design decisions in FOF8, and I'm not going to give it a thumbs up on Steam. But out of gratitude for Jim (who I have bought every game I could since 2004, and have had exceptional value from all of them, bar Up and Down the River!) I'm not going to give it a thumbs down either. Or post anything negative on Steam fourms which could affect new sales. Which is the best I can offer.

Not everyone has to, or will, agree with me, and maybe nobody does, but it's how I personally feel about it.

[Ben E Lou]

It's not just the UI, I don't like the way you have to have defensive player personnel in certain packages only, and offensive substitutions are broken. The FOF7 depth charts were for me significantly better for starting defense, and back-ups/substitutions on both sides of the ball in FOF8.

I saw Jim was looking at offensive subs, which may make a difference to my opinion, but I doubt it tbh. But I'm not going to delete 8 until that fix comes out to see if it does in fact tip the balance.

The playbooks idea is good but I find overwhelming, but I didn't gameplan in FOF7 either, so that was no better/worse for me.

A Steam review should IMO be that user's opinion of the game, not a user's understanding of what other people think - that's what the percentage of positive/negative reviews and 'generally positive', 'mixed', etc, summaries are for.

Literally the only things I liked more in FOF8 than 7 are the ability to have multiple player screens open at the same time and being able to quick sim an instant history. I found I can live without both (would prefer to have them, but can live without them)

I can't live with the menu system, the poor offensive substitutions (which I picked up in about two hours, one preseason and a couple of regular season games: it didn't need 100 year test careers, but it's good news that it is likely to be fixed) and the defensive personnel screen and substitutions: for me these critical elements far outweigh two positives that I can live without.

In short, I don't like a number of the key design decisions in FOF8, and I'm not going to give it a thumbs up on Steam. But out of gratitude for Jim (who I have bought every game I could since 2004, and have had exceptional value from all of them, bar Up and Down the River!) I'm not going to give it a thumbs down either. Or post anything negative on Steam fourms which could affect new sales. Which is the best I can offer.

Not everyone has to, or will, agree with me, and maybe nobody does, but it's how I personally feel about it.The fact that you're discussing specific details of what you like and don't like indicate that you really aren't getting where I'm coming from, so let's remove this specific game from the discussion entirely.

I really enjoyed FBCB1 and FBCB2, also games in this genre that essentially hang by a thread on whether there will ever be a next version.

If FBCB3 were released on Steam at a time where I happened to be very busy and wouldn't get to play it for a few weeks, I would buy it on the first day it was released and give it a thumbs-up review pretty much *immediately* (within days for sure, probably hours.)

And then at some point I'd have time to play the game later.

I want to advance the genre in general, and franchises I like in particular. The franchises I like don't have massive potential audiences, mainly because of their complexity. The details of whether I like the design decisions in a specific release are inconsequential to the bigger-picture agenda of keeping the games I like afloat, and it boggles my mind that others are (in my opinion) too short-sighted to simply do likewise.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

I have no idea why I am chiming in...boredom is a terrible thing, but it feels like you are being a bit disingenuous, skydog? I understand your argument, but on steam, you only have three reviews. Two of them are for FOF. You haven't reviewed any of the Draft Day Basketball games, OOTP (not that it needs the help) or any of the other less well known sports text games.

For your argument to hold water about positive reviews to advance the genre, I would have expected other reviews on steam. At least one for sure.

If your answer is you don't like the other games as much as this one, well that is AlexB's point as well.

Hope you understand my position on this. Not looking for a huge argument although I understand there is a fundamental disagreement. I think you are right about a lot of things, but on this one, I have to side with AlexB .

[AlexB]

The fact that you're discussing specific details of what you like and don't like indicate that you really aren't getting where I'm coming from

You asked for a postive review, and posted an example where you felt I could touch on the fact that there is a negative with the UI.

The fact that you posted this follow up indicates that you are not getting where I'm coming from. I could only touch on a couple of positives - I was showing you that it's not a minor single issue.

In a similar light, i distinctly remember how positive and supportive you have been for PFS. You posted that you loaded up the game, saw that you had something like 5 centers and 1 guard on the roster, there were no guards on the FA list and that was enough for you to see that it was broken. Game deleted, no positive feedback to the developer, no attempt to explore further, help the game or the genre.

I gave this game 10 hours, explored the different areas, posted suggestions and bug reports, trying to make it better. I came to the conclusion based on this, and some replies from Jim on Steam on the reasons why he went the way he did, that it is not the game for me.

Jim may need some positive feedback right now, and I hope that he gets it and develops a new version.

But that feedback needs to be genuine, not from someone who thinks that this version is fundamentally not for him, and who has just been told that the UI, (that takes up about 50% of my single screen and makes having multiple windows open slightly redundant as you cannot then access the menu behind them) is not going to change, and neither will all bar potentially one of the other elements that don't work for me.

It's like when a band you like makes a dud album - you don't stop liking the band, but you don't post positive reviews, as if everyone did that the next album would likely be an extension of the one they didn't like.

My positive feedback for Jim is "FOF7 is great, FOF8 is a misstep for me, but please do make another (different) version". That doesn't translate into a thumbs up.

[Hammer]

I totally get where you are coming from Alex. I wasn't going to give a positive review until the game earned it, as a matter of principle.

I don't think it is okay to give Jim the nod that the release was good, because it was a mess. He made the effort to fix the bugs, as usual, at that point I was in a position that I could genuinely give the game positive feedback as I am not that bothered about a crappy interface.

For whatever reason I do think this release was a little half arsed. Not only for the bugs, but defense really is lagging. So many great improvements in my opinion, but I can see where you are coming from Alex. FOF7 was a more basic, but much more balanced and tidy release. FOF8 is a blink better now for me, but it could been a lot better again.

[Ben E Lou]

You haven't reviewed any of the Draft Day Basketball games, OOTP (not that it needs the help) or any of the other less well known sports text games.I said it applies to a series that I have enjoyed in the past and seems to hang by a thread. I've never enjoyed a single DDS game, and OOTP doesn't fit the criteria. (If I thought for a second that there might not be an OOTP19 because of lack of exposure, I'd give it a review.)

What are the other less well known sports text games available on Steam? Is FBCB1 or 2 on there? (The only franchises I can think of that I've enjoyed long-term to give a "no-look" review to boost exposure would be FOF, OOTP, BBM, and FBCB. BBM and OOTP seem to have outgrown the need for such exposure. Am I missing something?)

Alex, I DO get exactly where you're coming from; you don't like this particular version, so no thumbs-up. I completely get that you think that way, and I think you're incredibly short-sighted for taking that position. I'm not sure how I can be more clear about that point. *shurg*

[Mobarak]

It sounds like I/we should start investing more time in another game... I agree with both of you on a lot of points on the review, but your missing the bigger picture I think. Once they buy the game what then? Like everyone they will be pretty bored of SP after awhile. MP? It's about as unpolished and fragmented as the interface itself in most cases.

The real voices and marketers of this game are the commissioners who run long term leagues. The Dev does nothing and website looks like something from the 80's and AOL. It's the commissioners who should be engaging the public and the new players, creating an environment that's inviting and rewarding for new people to help overcome the bad interface, fragmented help-file and overall complete lack of accurate information about the game.

I think the game is great. I think people will get a few 100 hours of enjoying SP. I think about half those people will try out an MP league.. and about 95% of them will give it up soon after.

[Sharkn20]

It sounds like I/we should start investing more time in another game... I agree with both of you on a lot of points on the review, but your missing the bigger picture I think. Once they buy the game what then? Like everyone they will be pretty bored of SP after awhile. MP? It's about as unpolished and fragmented as the interface itself in most cases.

The real voices and marketers of this game are the commissioners who run long term leagues. The Dev does nothing and website looks like something from the 80's and AOL. It's the commissioners who should be engaging the public and the new players, creating an environment that's inviting and rewarding for new people to help overcome the bad interface, fragmented help-file and overall complete lack of accurate information about the game.

I think the game is great. I think people will get a few 100 hours of enjoying SP. I think about half those people will try out an MP league.. and about 95% of them will give it up soon after.

Yeah people bowes out of MP because they can't stand to lose against better managers, because they are so use to win in SP.... :D :popcorn:

It happened in FOF2k7, FOF7 and will happen in FOF8 too...

Long term FOF players know this.

[garion333]

I'm not sure what Jim was expecting. He sold more copies of FOF7 than FOF8 on Steam, but that's spread out over a number of years and Steam sales.

However, there are more people playing FOF8 every day than FOF7. Granted the concurrent users is something like 80-100 for FOF7 (https://steamdb.info/app/344340/graphs/) and 100-120 for FOF8 (https://steamdb.info/app/547900/graphs/), but that is a step up, minor as it may seem.

I'm not sure what the long tail is on FOF8 though. Obviously he's unhappy.

If he expected to sell like OOTP then he needs to put the time and money into making the game look like OOTP. That's unfortunately the reality of the market. I'm sure he's also unhappy with how many people "bought" the game, played for an hour and refunded it. The entire Steam catalog, thanks to refunds, is open to that abuse...

Edit: Also, he wants more sales, then engage the community. OOTP is partially where it is today because of the community built up on their official forums with their annual feedback threads (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?p=4175329). FOF has an unofficial forum where people get yelled at for treating it like it's official. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ushikawa]

I feel the need to jump in here as a megafan albeit latecomer to FOF. Yes, the interface is kinda weird (however I do not see it as a dealbreaker). And it is quite apparent the release was rushed however other than the OL substitution error the real bugs have been fixed (another big issue is the 2 minute logic on D). My biggest complaint is that on D you pick the same playcall for 3rd and 3 as for 3rd and 13. Regardless in a MP environment we are all playing in the same system so it is fair. And that is what I really love about this game, there are no exploits. Here is my full review.

This game an really the whole series have come to dominate my gaming time over the past couple years. It certainly isn't for everyone and the interface can be a bit of a barrier but underneath the hood is a deeply complex and dynamic simulation with no exploits or easy ways to win.

You can build solid teams with whatever offensive and defensive focus you want. If you want to be a coordinator on either side of the ball then there is play design and personnel packages to allow for extreme specialization i.e. utilizing screen and YAC based receivers along with deep ball specialists, all this means that it isn't just about getting the best players. However if you just want to GM then the AI does a great job of creating gameplans based on your roster and your opponent. Oh, did I mention the draft. Based upon 6 combine scores and the ratings bars there is still a great level of busts and surprises in the other direction. Height, weight and age also play a big role. And all of this is just the single player experience.

The real gem of this series are the MP leagues and support. I would gladly pay a subscription fee for each MP league but you don't even have to. If you are a simulation nerd buy the dang game, if you are a true football fan who is sick of Madden exploits then buy the dang game. Take your lumps with the interface and get addicted to SP, after a while get yourself in a MP league (or 4) and you will find that there are no sims (sports or otherwise) that even come close to the challenges presented by FOF.

One quick note, the game is published with a help file that is necessary reading and studying material for anyone serious. Along with that there is a great community at FOF8/TCY Discussion - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/forumdisplay.php?f=33) that will help you get up to speed and fill in the intentional gray areas within the help file. As I said, this isn't for everyone but for the right type of customer there is no better gaming experience period.

[Hammer]

I find it really odd how Jim thought the step back on defense would be okay. The 3rd and 3/13 example above is prime. Heck, I would sooner he left the FOF7 defense particulars in place.

I suspect the majority are bothered by other issues though. How tough the game is to pick up and how poor the interface is. We must remember we are a small minority of hardcore fans. Most don't come anywhere near this forum or MP. Poor bastards have to try and pick it up on their own. Frightening.

[zbuckley]

I feel the need to jump in here as a megafan albeit latecomer to FOF. Yes, the interface is kinda weird (however I do not see it as a dealbreaker). And it is quite apparent the release was rushed however other than the OL substitution error the real bugs have been fixed (another big issue is the 2 minute logic on D). My biggest complaint is that on D you pick the same playcall for 3rd and 3 as for 3rd and 13. Regardless in a MP environment we are all playing in the same system so it is fair. And that is what I really love about this game, there are no exploits. Here is my full review.

This game an really the whole series have come to dominate my gaming time over the past couple years. It certainly isn't for everyone and the interface can be a bit of a barrier but underneath the hood is a deeply complex and dynamic simulation with no exploits or easy ways to win.

You can build solid teams with whatever offensive and defensive focus you want. If you want to be a coordinator on either side of the ball then there is play design and personnel packages to allow for extreme specialization i.e. utilizing screen and YAC based receivers along with deep ball specialists, all this means that it isn't just about getting the best players. However if you just want to GM then the AI does a great job of creating gameplans based on your roster and your opponent. Oh, did I mention the draft. Based upon 6 combine scores and the ratings bars there is still a great level of busts and surprises in the other direction. Height, weight and age also play a big role. And all of this is just the single player experience.

The real gem of this series are the MP leagues and support. I would gladly pay a subscription fee for each MP league but you don't even have to. If you are a simulation nerd buy the dang game, if you are a true football fan who is sick of Madden exploits then buy the dang game. Take your lumps with the interface and get addicted to SP, after a while get yourself in a MP league (or 4) and you will find that there are no sims (sports or otherwise) that even come close to the challenges presented by FOF.

One quick note, the game is published with a help file that is necessary reading and studying material for anyone serious. Along with that there is a great community at FOF8/TCY Discussion - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/forumdisplay.php?f=33) that will help you get up to speed and fill in the intentional gray areas within the help file. As I said, this isn't for everyone but for the right type of customer there is no better gaming experience period.

Well said. It's been a long time since I played a game not called FOF.

[Mobarak]

Based on most of the comments in just this thread alone, this game is not gonna make it. so sad

[Ushikawa]

I am not gonna pretend to know how Jim values his work nor all customers but to me switching to a subscription model with more frequent updates might be something to consider. His market is small for sure but the hardcore users would likely happy pay $50-100/yr to iron out the substitution issues and revamp the defensive playcalling over the next year.

I reiterate that I do not understand how the hardcore users who love the series cannot get over the interface. I understand the newcomers but really it is just not that big of a deal and if you don't like the rollover then you can deactivate it. The strict window sizes and popup locations are annoying but it is pretty minor and I don't even use a mouse.

Another opportunity for both markets I see is getting all users over to these forums or being a bit more transparent in the help files. I know that isn't the "spirit of the game" but it would sure make things easier on people. 95% of the questions asked here are answered in the help file and probably 80% of my ML forums.

I hope Jim doesn't give up but just learns from this failed launch. UI matters a lot, even to the loyals...and a revamp is needed for the D and situational logic (perhaps substitutions as well, though again I personally don't see it as a problem just an adjustment to value endurance more than before).

[Ushikawa]

Regarding the MP crowd, I think it is too early for leapfrogging but it is inevitable.

By that I mean (and hope it doesn't come off as too arrogant), I picked up FOF7 a couple years ago and played SP for a few months compulsively but in spurts. Didn't give anything much thought other than roster stuff. Then I got into the MP stuff and read every damn thing in these forums. Within 6 months I had all the public knowledge available incorporated into my 10-15 minute max gameplanning for each week: drafting with draft analyzer, doublecoverage and using the slot to exploit it, gameplan analyzer for identifying route lengths, the absurd dominance of Pass-Nickel playcall, defensive playcalls and formations that were best for my team, etc.

I like to gameplan in 8 when I have the time but have not noticed my teams perform any better than when using REX. Eventually I hope to figure some stuff out, surely others will and they will share it here. Somebody might pick up this game a year from now and be able to beat most of us as we play now and that is as it should be.

When the game gets stale, is when a new version or big update should come out, but we are a long ways from that. I still enjoyed 7 but really hadn't learned anything in the past year or so, for me the timing of a new game was perfect.

Us megafans have the responsibility of getting the whole community to that point.

[xcom44dan]

I agree with most of the comments in this thread.

As a SP only user (and I'm certain that there are many, many SP only players out there who are simply less active in the FOF community), my main issues are the non-challenging AI and dated interface. FOF sometimes feels more like an exercise in crunching data than a game.

I understand how many of the hardcore users on this forum like to fly through seasons in less than 15 minutes, and that speed and access to information is more important (to enable quick sims of tens of years of careers). I think that for the majority of Sports Management players however, this is not the case. Most players of the Football Manager series for example, and myself, love to basque in our created universes and relish in our players' careers and personalities. I find nothing more satisfying than looking back on a career and delving through my individual player stats, crafting trades and remembering players of old. I playcall every one of my games, as I feel this is the only pace I can play to really get any sense of immersion with my players with FOF in it's current state.

When I look at a player in FOF, I see no personality traits (aside from some mentorship and affinity drivers), no player pictures, no individual characteristics. All I see is a column of randomly generated numbers (though I think the game does a very good job of masking numbers with the scouting system and progression). This is all fine, but it's designed in a way for users to interpret too literally - that is to say that it's removing the feeling of being immersed in a sports game, instead looking and feeling more like a table-top game.


The game engine in my opinion isn't just the best around, I fear that it's the best there will ever be. It's that good. We've seen a few rivals to this game, and by contrast their attempts at modelling a game of football are shockingly poor. Jim has done an amazing job of allowing a user to completely alter a gameplan, and still achieve realistic results which show the impacts of your work. Even if we one day managed to get a 'Beyond the Sideline' type game (which doesn't look promising), I seriously doubt that the engine will be as solid as Jim's.

I just feel that in it's current state, FOF is pleasing a very small niche of hardcore users, and not appealing to the (dare I say it) more casual audience, who don't want to spend time reverse-engineering ways to beat the game, but who just want to enjoy and be challenged by the universe they're a part of.

I adore this series, but I find it frustrating that the seemingly difficult part is already nearly perfect. The problems are simple design changes that other GM simulation games all do (e.g. OOTP and even some of the more terrible football sims). Improved AI, interface, player personalities, pictures etc. For the most part these are cosmetic changes, but they're what these types of games need to succeed commercially. Football Manager and OOTP are proof that the market does exist for sports simulation games.

I know Jim's a one man army, but if he could team-up with somebody else with experience in this field, FOF could be everything I (and I'm sure many others) have always dreamed it would be.

[xcom44dan]

On the note above... I'm conscious I haven't posted a review yet. I'll be posting a positive review, though absolutely understand those who have not done the same.

[garion333]

I agree with most of the comments in this thread.

As a SP only user (and I'm certain that there are many, many SP only players out there who are simply less active in the FOF community), my main issues are the non-challenging AI and dated interface. FOF sometimes feels more like an exercise in crunching data than a game.

I understand how many of the hardcore users on this forum like to fly through seasons in less than 15 minutes, and that speed and access to information is more important (to enable quick sims of tens of years of careers). I think that for the majority of Sports Management players however, this is not the case. Most players of the Football Manager series for example, and myself, love to basque in our created universes and relish in our players' careers and personalities. I find nothing more satisfying than looking back on a career and delving through my individual player stats, crafting trades and remembering players of old. I playcall every one of my games, as I feel this is the only pace I can play to really get any sense of immersion with my players with FOF in it's current state.

When I look at a player in FOF, I see no personality traits (aside from some mentorship and affinity drivers), no player pictures, no individual characteristics. All I see is a column of randomly generated numbers (though I think the game does a very good job of masking numbers with the scouting system and progression). This is all fine, but it's designed in a way for users to interpret too literally - that is to say that it's removing the feeling of being immersed in a sports game, instead looking and feeling more like a table-top game.


The game engine in my opinion isn't just the best around, I fear that it's the best there will ever be. It's that good. We've seen a few rivals to this game, and by contrast their attempts at modelling a game of football are shockingly poor. Jim has done an amazing job of allowing a user to completely alter a gameplan, and still achieve realistic results which show the impacts of your work. Even if we one day managed to get a 'Beyond the Sideline' type game (which doesn't look promising), I seriously doubt that the engine will be as solid as Jim's.

I just feel that in it's current state, FOF is pleasing a very small niche of hardcore users, and not appealing to the (dare I say it) more casual audience, who don't want to spend time reverse-engineering ways to beat the game, but who just want to enjoy and be challenged by the universe they're a part of.

I adore this series, but I find it frustrating that the seemingly difficult part is already nearly perfect. The problems are simple design changes that other GM simulation games all do (e.g. OOTP and even some of the more terrible football sims). Improved AI, interface, player personalities, pictures etc. For the most part these are cosmetic changes, but they're what these types of games need to succeed commercially. Football Manager and OOTP are proof that the market does exist for sports simulation games.

I know Jim's a one man army, but if he could team-up with somebody else with experience in this field, FOF could be everything I (and I'm sure many others) have always dreamed it would be.

Great post!

[Hammer]

+1 I thought the same.

[Mobarak]

I agree with most of the comments in this thread.

As a SP only user (and I'm certain that there are many, many SP only players out there who are simply less active in the FOF community), my main issues are the non-challenging AI and dated interface. FOF sometimes feels more like an exercise in crunching data than a game.

I understand how many of the hardcore users on this forum like to fly through seasons in less than 15 minutes, and that speed and access to information is more important (to enable quick sims of tens of years of careers). I think that for the majority of Sports Management players however, this is not the case. Most players of the Football Manager series for example, and myself, love to basque in our created universes and relish in our players' careers and personalities. I find nothing more satisfying than looking back on a career and delving through my individual player stats, crafting trades and remembering players of old. I playcall every one of my games, as I feel this is the only pace I can play to really get any sense of immersion with my players with FOF in it's current state.

When I look at a player in FOF, I see no personality traits (aside from some mentorship and affinity drivers), no player pictures, no individual characteristics. All I see is a column of randomly generated numbers (though I think the game does a very good job of masking numbers with the scouting system and progression). This is all fine, but it's designed in a way for users to interpret too literally - that is to say that it's removing the feeling of being immersed in a sports game, instead looking and feeling more like a table-top game.


The game engine in my opinion isn't just the best around, I fear that it's the best there will ever be. It's that good. We've seen a few rivals to this game, and by contrast their attempts at modelling a game of football are shockingly poor. Jim has done an amazing job of allowing a user to completely alter a gameplan, and still achieve realistic results which show the impacts of your work. Even if we one day managed to get a 'Beyond the Sideline' type game (which doesn't look promising), I seriously doubt that the engine will be as solid as Jim's.

I just feel that in it's current state, FOF is pleasing a very small niche of hardcore users, and not appealing to the (dare I say it) more casual audience, who don't want to spend time reverse-engineering ways to beat the game, but who just want to enjoy and be challenged by the universe they're a part of.

I adore this series, but I find it frustrating that the seemingly difficult part is already nearly perfect. The problems are simple design changes that other GM simulation games all do (e.g. OOTP and even some of the more terrible football sims). Improved AI, interface, player personalities, pictures etc. For the most part these are cosmetic changes, but they're what these types of games need to succeed commercially. Football Manager and OOTP are proof that the market does exist for sports simulation games.

I know Jim's a one man army, but if he could team-up with somebody else with experience in this field, FOF could be everything I (and I'm sure many others) have always dreamed it would be.


I actually think most players enjoy the fast sim and less players enjoy spending time with every single player roster/free agency/trading etc.

I like the post though and I agree a big problem is the interface. If it looked like a game in any way it would help.. like watching game simulations with the old Techmo bowl guys lol. That would be so sweet.

If "Jim", sorry it feels weird to call the guy by is first name, every decides to give up hopefully he just passes it on to a bigger company. I would bet there are plenty of teams out there who would take over the game and add an interface.

[Ben E Lou]

There's no way for us to know which group is the largest. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people who buy computer games never play in any sort of online league and never post on a message board about it. Do the math. There's NO WAY that Jim could have survived this long in this business if FOFC regulars comprised the majority of his customers. My strong suspicion is that less than 25% of Solecismic Software's customers have ever posted here.

What IS true is that for a very long time, FOF (and other text sims, which drew people here as well,) had little/no in-game play calling, game planning, etc. These games were ALL about being a GM, not a Coach, so as a result, the majority of long-timers here are/were more GM type players--people more interested in how their franchise ebbs and flows during the switch from one QB to the next rather than the details of one game to the next or one play to the next. But speculating on how thousands of people who don't come here play the game is useless.

Every study I've read indicates that strong-selling computer games have a significant-sized contingent of people who buy the game near the time of release (or at the start of the season for sports games,) play it for a few hours, maybe pick it up again at the draft or the start of next season, and that's it. They never come online. Never post at a board like this. Never give their feedback to the developer. This game needs more dummies like that who are willing to put their money into our hobby--which is my reasoning for "just give the game positive reviews and let the dummies do their thing." ;))

But as has been mentioned, the lack of a prettier interface doesn't attract those dummies. Dummies like shiny things. *shurg*

Garion, your Steam comparison is invalid. FOF7 didn't make it to Steam until over a year after its release, and I'm sure hundreds (if not thousands) of people never switched to FOF7 on Steam.

[Mobarak]

A game like this needs a strong 3rd party community to grow. I get you would be ok with just seeing a lot more sales and not that many new online players because at least that keeps the Dev funded and working. If 1000 people bought the game next month, and 100 of them post here looking for a league what would happen... maybe that 100 could be accommodated. What happens if another 1000 sell the next month and another 100 people are looking to join MP what happens?

[Mobarak]

A game like this needs a strong 3rd party community to grow. I get you would be ok with just seeing a lot more sales and not that many new online players because at least that keeps the Dev funded and working. If 1000 people bought the game next month, and 100 of them here and posted for a league what would happen... maybe that 100 could be accommodated. What happens if another 1000 sell the next month and another 100 people are looking to join MP what happens?


I guess what I mean is, do you feel that whats currently available to a new player coming into the MP scene is sufficient to excite them and get them committed to the hours and hours of staring at windows and scouring threads for fragmented information?

[Ben E Lou]

A game like this needs a strong 3rd party community to grow. I get you would be ok with just seeing a lot more sales and not that many new online players because at least that keeps the Dev funded and working. If 1000 people bought the game next month, and 100 of them here and posted for a league what would happen... maybe that 100 could be accommodated. What happens if another 1000 sell the next month and another 100 people are looking to join MP what happens?Sure, some of the new purchasers would come online, play MP, etc. That'd be great. But I doubt it'd even be as high as 10% who actually join a MP league. There are something like 200-250 tops people playing FOF MP. I don't know what Jim's cut is from Steam and what it was from Viatech, but even if we're overly generous and say he takes home $25 per sale, having even 10% of his base playing MP would mean that only $62.5K over several years between new releases. He has to be selling significantly more games than that. People just don't play MP at the rate that most of us who play MP think they do.

[Mobarak]

I agree with that, so then the focus should be getting more people to MP. We would be the ones to engage the community, the more of us there are the more the game can grow. We are the ones more likely to buy every version and help others learn the game, start and manage leagues. no?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

What if he made the Headings under "Put Yourself in the Front Office" clickable and not the hoverover type. Would that help everyone enjoy the interface because I like it the way it is.

[AlexB]

I actually think most players enjoy the fast sim and less players enjoy spending time with every single player roster/free agency/trading etc.

I like the post though and I agree a big problem is the interface. If it looked like a game in any way it would help.. like watching game simulations with the old Techmo bowl guys lol. That would be so sweet.

If "Jim", sorry it feels weird to call the guy by is first name, every decides to give up hopefully he just passes it on to a bigger company. I would bet there are plenty of teams out there who would take over the game and add an interface.

Agree that it is a great post, but would be interesting to see whether more negative impressions come from people who do take their time to play out / watch every game, and might as a result notice the little things like substitutions more readily than a quick simmer? Unsurprisingly perhaps I'm not a quick simmer ;)

Was thinking of posting this before, but the immediate argument against it that I came up with was that I think Ben for example is both types of player: quick simmer in SP, studies the minutiae in MP. Could well be wrong though.

[garion333]

Sure, some of the new purchasers would come online, play MP, etc. That'd be great. But I doubt it'd even be as high as 10% who actually join a MP league. There are something like 200-250 tops people playing FOF MP. I don't know what Jim's cut is from Steam and what it was from Viatech, but even if we're overly generous and say he takes home $25 per sale, having even 10% of his base playing MP would mean that only $62.5K over several years between new releases. He has to be selling significantly more games than that. People just don't play MP at the rate that most of us who play MP think they do.

Fwiw, Steam takes 30% off the sale of a game.

[AlexB]

What if he made the Headings under "Put Yourself in the Front Office" clickable and not the hoverover type. Would that help everyone enjoy the interface because I like it the way it is.

One of the issues for me is that the menu is vastly oversized if you only use a single screen like me. I have no idea if most people have multiple screens or just single, but taking up a third of the screen with the menu means that you can't actually have many windows open without blocking the menu anyway, end up moving them all around to get at the menu, at which point you may as well go back to the old system.

Thinking about it yesterday during my 16 hour marathon working day (thank god they don't happen too often!) I reckon the UI could keep the essence of what it is but be a million times more functional if instead of having the massive menu area that is currently in place, there were simple drop down menus at the top of the screen that need to be no more than 1cm thick? Basically like the drop down menues in FM for those that have played it.

That way the menus could roll down over every other window that is open, once one drop down is open, make it so that accidentally rolling over an adjacent menu doesn't mean you change menu while trying to navigate the sub-menus (it would be impossible with a drop down, there would be no conflict), and you get a third of the screen back to use as you wish.

The current system for me is way too big, and way too over sensitive if you roll slightly too far off the menu. (This is all based on memory from a couple of months ago, so ignore me if some of this has been changed)

[Masked]

One of the issues for me is that the menu is vastly oversized if you only use a single screen like me. I have no idea if most people have multiple screens or just single, but taking up a third of the screen with the menu means that you can't actually have many windows open without blocking the menu anyway, end up moving them all around to get at the menu, at which point you may as well go back to the old system.

Thinking about it yesterday during my 16 hour marathon working day (thank god they don't happen too often!) I reckon the UI could keep the essence of what it is but be a million times more functional if instead of having the massive menu area that is currently in place, there were simple drop down menus at the top of the screen that need to be no more than 1cm thick? Basically like the drop down menues in FM for those that have played it.

That way the menus could roll down over every other window that is open, once one drop down is open, make it so that accidentally rolling over an adjacent menu doesn't mean you change menu while trying to navigate the sub-menus (it would be impossible with a drop down, there would be no conflict), and you get a third of the screen back to use as you wish.

The current system for me is way too big, and way too over sensitive if you roll slightly too far off the menu. (This is all based on memory from a couple of months ago, so ignore me if some of this has been changed)

I agree with this - I found the game difficult to navigate on a small laptop screen. The menu kept getting hidden under other windows among other issues. I mostly just quit playing as a result except for maintaining my last MP team.

[Ben E Lou]

Eh, that's even an issue with a 3-monitor setup like I have. I'd think it's fairly universal that people want to be able to use as much of their screen(s) as is possible. My assumption is that something about the way he's handling windows forced him into that setup. He has done dropdowns before and on the surface it seems like such the obvious solution to this that I have to think there was a reason he couldn't use them.

[AlexB]

To me that means that either the coding was bad, or the idea was bad. Having played Jim's games for many years I know it's not the coding, so by default it must mean the idea was bad (IMO) and it needed to be rethought out, not just made as good as it could be given certain limitations.

It may be a simple difference that I want to push for improvement rather than offer fake backslapping for having a go...

And I get that you believe posting positive Steam reviews will encourage more people to buy and that will mean Jim will be more likely to improve, and vice versa, and you're almost certainly right on that.

Without restarting the debate, two things though: more sales will likely mean it is seen as an endorsement that the FOF8 UI, feel, mechanics, etc are the popular way to go forward, which I don't agree with, so I would be promoting the game to go in a direction I don't want it to go in, which makes the promotion futile for me.

But more important is that it's not just Steam reviews: my second question is how do people know that this game exists? Where is the advertising, promotion, buzz that will cause people to look for it on Steam in the first place? I know marketing and Jim have never been a good mix, but there has to be some way of getting any message out there. The idea of 'release it and it will sell' just isn't viable.

That is where people could make a meaningful difference, not just with thumbs up Steam reviews. Again my underlying point about promoting something I don't believe in would apply, but I feel this thread focuses on a minor aspect while ignoring the much larger issue of how to get people to look at Steam page in the first place

Mobilising the masses to attack this angle would have a far greater positive effect.

[Ben E Lou]

Without restarting the debate, two things though: more sales will likely mean it is seen as an endorsement that the FOF8 UI, feel, mechanics, etc are the popular way to go forward, which I don't agree with, so I would be promoting the game to go in a direction I don't want it to go in, which makes the promotion futile for me.Eh, not at all if you simply...

1. Give thumbs-up.
2. Send Customer Support an email explaining the issues you don't like.

But more important is that it's not just Steam reviews: my second question is how do people know that this game exists? Where is the advertising, promotion, buzz that will cause people to look for it on Steam in the first place? Ah...maybe that's the missing piece that you don't realize: Steam reviews are their own marketing. Get x number of thumbs-up reviews (and I'm fairly certain that x is attainable by FOFC/FOF MP community,) and the game gets pushed BY Steam ON Steam. It starts to show up on front pages of users; it gets in the "recommended for you" list. The promotion happens automatically with enough thumbs-ups. Giving positive reviews over there is what puts the game in front of the masses.

[AlexB]

No, didn't realise that. I rarely load Steam itself unless there's a specific game I want to buy or to uninstall one I have bought, just use a desktop shortcut to the game itself.

So I for example would never know FOF existed unless I specifically looked for a game like it. Not sure how to get to others like me? Advertising on fantasy football sites maybe, but guessing that would be very expensive.

[gmgameschris]

If friends at FOFC like to upvote or user review FOF8, it's game hub is available here http://gmgames.org/front-office-football-8-fof8/

[Sharkn20]

If friends at FOFC like to upvote or user review FOF8, it's game hub is available here http://gmgames.org/front-office-football-8-fof8/

Awesome! Thanks! :popcorn: