Anyone getting mileage out of WR reverses?

[QuikSand]

So, I'm trying to fiddle around a bit with my gameplan, and have dropped in a few WR reverses into a fairly vanilla spread offense. The spread theoretically favors finesse runs (I assume a reverse qualifies), so it feels like this ought to work.

I'm not overdoing it (I think) - just put a reverse play into three locations in the gameplan, and I have been seeing around 20-40 per season.

But... terrible results. Have yet to gain more than 100 yards total on the reverse plays, and the yards per carry average is well below 4 in every case.

Anyone having better luck, and willing to share what you're doing?

[Ben E Lou]

So, I'm trying to fiddle around a bit with my gameplan, and have dropped in a few WR reverses into a fairly vanilla spread offense. The spread theoretically favors finesse runs (I assume a reverse qualifies), so it feels like this ought to work.

I'm not overdoing it (I think) - just put a reverse play into three locations in the gameplan, and I have been seeing around 20-40 per season.

But... terrible results. Have yet to gain more than 100 yards total on the reverse plays, and the yards per carry average is well below 4 in every case.

Anyone having better luck, and willing to share what you're doing?I messed around with it just a hair in 8.0 in a spread. I don't recall how many carries or ypc, but I did have one WR reverse go for maybe 40 yards and that got me pretty stoked to do more. Alas, my 8.0a QB has like 15 scramble frequency, so no spread for us.

[QuikSand]

I ran 10 seasons with a reverse-seeded gameplan, and the target WR was getting around 20 for 50 on reverses. Have yet to see a long of over 16 yards. I feel like I must be doing something very wrong.

(The obvious candidates being that I have only one reverse in my active gameplan, and am running the same gameplan for a full quiktest season - either of which seems to potentially spell doom alone, much less together)

[Ben E Lou]

I ran 10 seasons with a reverse-seeded gameplan, and the target WR was getting around 20 for 50 on reverses. Have yet to see a long of over 16 yards. I feel like I must be doing something very wrong.Too many maybe?

[Ben E Lou]

Just checked year-by-year WR rushing numbers in a 50-year league. There are 30+ yard WR runs (assuming those are reverses) virtually every season, plenty in the 40/50/60 range, and a max of 95. Best season looks like a guy who was 15-126 with a long of 36. Most carries = 20.

[TAFIV]

just wondering if this might work...when drafting look for a RB with decent receiving stats, good breakaway speed and good elusiveness who is a little light for an RB (say 200 lbs), and maybe outside speed, and try transferring him to WR in the position of the formation your reverse is run from and see if it makes a difference

[TroyF]

I don't do my own gameplans, but the REX'd versions have used some WR reverses in my current career. The results have been pretty bad. My top WR has 3 carries for 1 yard. My second receiver has gotten a lot more carries and has failed as well. 21 carries in the last 3 years for a total of 33 yards. What's important to note about that is that he has a carry for 21 yards, one for 10 yards and one for 9 yards.

So I have had a total of 24 reverses in the last three years. 3 of those resulted in 40 yards.

The other 21 went for a total of -6 yards.

[QuikSand]

I think reverses definitely -should- have a big variance, right? If you're going to get to 5 yards per carry on reverses, the sequence should look something like: -5, 0, 5, -5, 0, 20, -5, 0, 5, 35

I don't know what the right formula would be, nor do I know what the NFL achieves with its use of reverses... but because this is the first version of FOF to include the ability to put these in deliberately, it seems worth getting as "right" as possible.

Ben's stats sounded okay to me...but there's still some anecdotal evidence that either this needs to be done with deep precision, or by using some other angle that the casual FOFer won't have. I think this is worth the dive... whether to help fix it, or to better understand it.

[TroyF]

I think reverses definitely -should- have a big variance, right? If you're going to get to 5 yards per carry on reverses, the sequence should look something like: -5, 0, 5, -5, 0, 20, -5, 0, 5, 35

I don't know what the right formula would be, nor do I know what the NFL achieves with its use of reverses... but because this is the first version of FOF to include the ability to put these in deliberately, it seems worth getting as "right" as possible.

Ben's stats sounded okay to me...but there's still some anecdotal evidence that either this needs to be done with deep precision, or by using some other angle that the casual FOFer won't have. I think this is worth the dive... whether to help fix it, or to better understand it.


I agree there should be huge variances on the play. My point with that is that my failure rate with the play is 87%. Even using them as sparingly as they have been used, they haven't been effective for me at all.

[QuikSand]

For reference - looking at NFL stats through this week (Week 14, so 12 games for most teams):

Tyler Lockett 4-99, crazy ypc (one big play last week)
Tavon Austin 19-91, 4.8 ypc
Tyreke Hill 14-89, 6.4
Lucky Whitehead (?) 8-86, 10.8
Ted Ginn 10-69, 6.9
Darius Heyward-Bey 1-60, crazy ypc
Julian Edelman 11-51, 4.6
...

[QuikSand]

and my guy (a 4.38 dash rookie with big bars in GD and BPR, but lousy RR...seems like a perfect candidate to get the ball this way):

22-35, long of 11
18-19, long of 8
20-41, long of 16
20-66, long of 17

Have yet to get my guy to post 100 yards that I have noticed in around 25 zero-injury seasons.

[QuikSand]

Tried one full season with a well-suited RB (good in breakaway, getting downfield, third down running), slotted in our depth chart ONLY in the WR slot in the one formation where I use that specific slot for reverses. Alas, data doesn't work... he ended up with 33-181, but it seems very likely that he got some spillover time as genuine RB as part of that.

Seems like it would be very tedious to try to generate purer stats this way. Might have to load up the RB position really deeply, to make sure he's a total afterthought for backfield carries.

edit: okay...looking game-by-game, he had 10 carries in one game, so let's speculate that another RB got winded or had the flu or something there. Pull out that 10-35 effort entirely, and the balance of his season is a pretty decent 23-146 for north of 6 yards per carry.

[QuikSand]

Tried one season using a more veteran, but less freakishly talented, WR... hoping to see if maybe position experience is the problem. He posted 15-25... pretty much the same garbage as my rookie. Not going to run 10 seasons of this.

High quality starting WR, with very good GD, posts 19-29 in his full season as the reverse target guy. Again, that's enough for me.

[Sharkn20]

Tried one full season with a well-suited RB (good in breakaway, getting downfield, third down running), slotted in our depth chart ONLY in the WR slot in the one formation where I use that specific slot for reverses. Alas, data doesn't work... he ended up with 33-181, but it seems very likely that he got some spillover time as genuine RB as part of that.

Seems like it would be very tedious to try to generate purer stats this way. Might have to load up the RB position really deeply, to make sure he's a total afterthought for backfield carries.

edit: okay...looking game-by-game, he had 10 carries in one game, so let's speculate that another RB got winded or had the flu or something there. Pull out that 10-35 effort entirely, and the balance of his season is a pretty decent 23-146 for north of 6 yards per carry.

So to run a reverse, we will have to setup a RB in that formation specifically to run the reverse then...

[QuikSand]

...which, to me, sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

[TAFIV]

Check FA running backs I saw a few in my SP that might make good reverse run WRs (actually change his position to WR so he won't be used as a RB), here's what I was looking for, in the order I think would be important for the position:

1. Hole Recognition - ability to find the right path to run against the defense

2. Speed to the outside - ability to get outside of the defensive containment

3. Breakaway Speed - ability to outrun the defense in the open field

4. Avoid Drops - ability to catch a pass (he is a WR so may need to occasionally catch the ball)

5. Route Running - Quality of the route, which leads to more catches

6. Third Down Running - ability to gain an extra yard or two on third down

7. Height/Weight - would take some experimenting but probably about halfway between WR and HB since he'd basically be doing both

8. Elusiveness - tendency to take chances, can lead to bigger gains or losses (not really sure I'd want this since it makes him inconsistent in how much I can expect him to gain)

9. Endurance - ability to stay on field (completely irrelevant since he'll only be in one formation, though more is better just in case someone else gets injured)

I don't think I'd use a draft pick for it, unless it was late in the draft and I didn't need anything else but certainly worth looking at FAs if you want to run reverses since you have no way of knowing how good a WR is at running the ball.

[Brian Swartz]

FWIW, I've had quite 'meh' results on the reverses. Then we call one on third-and-2, up by a touchdown at home with the other team coming back, early in the 4th. I cringe ... until it goes for 57 yards inside their 5. Yep, great call coach! Now don't ever do it again.

[Ben E Lou]

I happened to notice that my 4.30 WR from this thread (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=92255)led the league last season in WR rush attempts: 23 carrie, 58 yards, 2.52ypc. Blech.

However, then I noticed that he had 4 TDs and 10 first downs among those totes, which led me to investigate. Turns out that 212 Pro Rev 50 was slotted on 1st/2nd goal, inside opp 6 as the third play in the script. (It was also in the game plan on 1/2nd 3-5.) So he had 9 RZ carries, four of them going for TDs. That's something for me to consider...

[yabanci]

According to the play diagrams, west coast is the best fit for all the reverses. Perhaps results would be a bit better with that offense. Just a thought, haven't tried it.

[QuikSand]

I have been trying and trying, to no avail. Can't get this to come up with numbers worth a damn.

Three games into the CCFL MP league, there's one WR run for 50 yards, and a handful of runs for 9-16. And then about 50 that were for nothing or negative. That ratio doesn't seem reasonable, to me, and it mirrors what I'm seeing in my SP efforts.

[yabanci]

Given that the help have says you are "very limited" in how many reverses you can run, maybe more than one per game is too many. There could be a hidden "defense is very familiar with that play" cap if you run more than that. In real life, it seems that Tavon Austin runs the most reverses (could be wrong), and it looks like he has 14 this year (has more rushes, but only 14 around the ends).

It also might be that reverses are more effective in a west coast offense against certain defensive formations. I really don't know how the matchups work in real life, but maybe if the corners are in press coverage or a safety in the box, or whatever, they're in a better position to stuff a reverse, or maybe reverses are more effective against nickel. Maybe it has to do with attributes, such as poor run defense on the edge and at corner. Maybe the programming just isn't realistic since he's looking at such a small sample size and doesn't want to give the user an easy way to get a big play. All pure speculation, not even sure why I post this other than I find it interesting.

[yabanci]

1-10-ATL27 (2Q: 03:58) Mohamed Sanu ran a reverse around left end for 73 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Key block delivered by Alex Mack. Atlanta's Julio Jones was hurt on the play. This appears to be a minor knee injury. He should be able to remain in the game. Atlanta 20, New Orleans 13
OFFENSE 113 Personnel, I formation DEFENSE 43 Under, Nickel Personnel, Cover-1

[QuikSand]

Maybe the programming just isn't realistic since he's looking at such a small sample size and doesn't want to give the user an easy way to get a big play.

My chips are down on this. It's understandable.

[crusher78]

...Julio Jones was hurt on the play. This appears to be a minor knee injury.

This game never fails to impress me with how realistic it is!

[Ben E Lou]

Given that the help have says you are "very limited" in how many reverses you can run, maybe more than one per game is too many. I'm fooling around with some other game plan stuff right now, and it happens that I have one 1st and 10 reverse in there with a 4.26 veteran WR. I'm consistently getting good numbers, primarily because he seems to break almost one per year.

But he gets 16 and only 16 carries per season.