Bought every version, surprised we still dont have this.

[AgustusM]

we need a simple way IN GAME to edit players and coaches, or well really everything.

OOTP has had this for free since as long as I can remember

FM has it as an additional $5.49 add on (this is a great option in my opinion - make it work the developers trouble)

the arguments against are specious at best

"it ruins multiplayer" - no it doesn't, both OOTP and FM handle this without any trouble by disabling it for everyone but commissioner.

"then you could just edit everyone to 99" - well sure, I personally wouldn't since that wouldn't be fun to me. But if someone does want to edit every player and win every game by 100 points, who cares. good for them


In OOTP I have dozens of leagues and make all kinds of edits, it is fun and it increases my immersion.

In FM I know next to nothing about soccer but the game is so dam good it has increased my interest. I have a few players who I have had over multiple years and I always use the editor to bring them to my team and ship out guys I dont like. I could (and sometimes do) pursue them in the normal game action. but some guys I just enjoy having on my team.

Most specifically to FOF I know how and often edit the csv files pre starting - but there are a few problems with this:

1. I have dealt with spreadsheet files for over 20 years and it is easy for me. for many potential buyers this is not true and having to deal with this out of game would be a huge hassle and often not worth the effort at all
2. there is not option to edit character things. For me personally I refuse to have red flag character guys on my team. I am a firm believer in chemistry and character especially in football and in my opinion they are never worth it. When random players and especially the exact opposite of red flag guys get flagged it real ruins that save for me. (latest example - I am a niners fan, the real team is awful and needs a complete rebuild and my first save had Navorro Bowman labels as red flag. This is especially galling because in real life he is one of the few players worth keeping, he is a model citizen and because of his contract cutting him would be absurd)
3. the use Full X Factor option should really be a percentage. I always turn it off and still get what I would estimate is about a 25% change. I would like to edit this to 5% for most starts and 0% for the csv files I spend a lot of time editing (this is a compounding problem since I am less compelled to spent a bunch of time pre editing when a good portion is wiped out in the X factorization at league creation.

bottom line we all play these games for fun and more options is ALWAYS better. far and away the best thing OOTP does is give the player the flexibility to play the game the way they want. FOF still limits this way too much.

I have bought both games every version since V1 and will continue to do so. Way back when they were new they were pretty close. Now there is no comparison. FOF is still fun, but is the leader simply because there is zero real competition. OOTP is the best because of the vast amount of competition that pushes the developer to make the game better.

let us edit anything, anytime, anywhere - charge us for the privilege and we will all be better off.

[sirotka33]

You're right, this game isn't a sandbox. The fact that it isn't makes me sad. I'm stuck with whatever high or low roll the game wants to use for my players, like some sort of RPG.

It's enjoyable either way, but add me to the group that wants to see a player editor.

[AgustusM]

I especially dont understand why "turn off X factor" doesn't work better

1st save (the one with red flag bowman) Niners first round pick Josh Garnett with a potential of 90

2nd save (bowman fine now) Garnett potential is 27

I understand scouting, and some x factor.

But how does a player go from a hall of fame potential to a completely fungible draft bust with X factor turned off? I might understand it if it was on, but with it off that is just too much.

plus I am not talking about after a certain amount of time, development, good luck, bad luck all that. these are both day 1 potentials

[Young Drachma]

+2

My understanding is that founder's intent isn't really geared at fictional/sandbox players. Which is what it is, I guess. But it does really limit the replayability of the game

[TroyF]

+2

My understanding is that founder's intent isn't really geared at fictional/sandbox players. Which is what it is, I guess. But it does really limit the replayability of the game


You are half right. The intent isn't sandbox. But fictional players? Yeah, that's the intent. That's why you get to create a history and use nothing but game created players. I really, really don't get the replayability comment. Why is it you would say that? It isn't replayable because you can't edit Ryan Tannehill to be Tom Brady?

I'm going to state MY opinion here, nothing more nothing less:

I rarely use the editor in FM or OOTP. When i use it in OOTP, it's because I'm beyond frustrated and it has nothing to do with the players. I use it to edit finances because the game gets things so very, very wrong on that level most of the time.

Right now, I'm having a blast in a league where I created 15 years of history in and started with an almost entirely new league. I don't want to edit my starting QB to make him Peyton Manning. I either draft one that good or I struggle like everyone else trying to get one. the awesome thing is I might get him in one league. I might not in another. This is one of the most replayable games I have ever played.

The thing is, like what was pointed out at the start of the thread, the developer has never tried to promise it would be there. If that's an issue for you, email support and state your case. Whatever you do, don't buy the next version unless he states it will have it.

[Young Drachma]

You are half right. The intent isn't sandbox. But fictional players? Yeah, that's the intent. That's why you get to create a history and use nothing but game created players. I really, really don't get the replayability comment. Why is it you would say that? It isn't replayable because you can't edit Ryan Tannehill to be Tom Brady?

I'm going to state MY opinion here, nothing more nothing less:

I rarely use the editor in FM or OOTP. When i use it in OOTP, it's because I'm beyond frustrated and it has nothing to do with the players. I use it to edit finances because the game gets things so very, very wrong on that level most of the time.

Right now, I'm having a blast in a league where I created 15 years of history in and started with an almost entirely new league. I don't want to edit my starting QB to make him Peyton Manning. I either draft one that good or I struggle like everyone else trying to get one. the awesome thing is I might get him in one league. I might not in another. This is one of the most replayable games I have ever played.

The thing is, like what was pointed out at the start of the thread, the developer has never tried to promise it would be there. If that's an issue for you, email support and state your case. Whatever you do, don't buy the next version unless he states it will have it.

No, I wasn't complaining. I've been around long enough to know what FOF is and what FOF isn't. I was just expressing sympathy with his state because I too like sandboxing. It doesn't mean I want the game to change (ok, it does...) but I realize in the FOF world we're a minority and that's okay. The realistic stats and other minutae plus Jim's support of it make it mostly worth it for me regardless.

[Noop]

+1

I really like to create mega players and have them carry a franchise.

[AgustusM]

You are half right. The intent isn't sandbox. But fictional players? Yeah, that's the intent. That's why you get to create a history and use nothing but game created players. I really, really don't get the replayability comment. Why is it you would say that? It isn't replayable because you can't edit Ryan Tannehill to be Tom Brady?

I'm going to state MY opinion here, nothing more nothing less:

I rarely use the editor in FM or OOTP. When i use it in OOTP, it's because I'm beyond frustrated and it has nothing to do with the players. I use it to edit finances because the game gets things so very, very wrong on that level most of the time.

Right now, I'm having a blast in a league where I created 15 years of history in and started with an almost entirely new league. I don't want to edit my starting QB to make him Peyton Manning. I either draft one that good or I struggle like everyone else trying to get one. the awesome thing is I might get him in one league. I might not in another. This is one of the most replayable games I have ever played.

The thing is, like what was pointed out at the start of the thread, the developer has never tried to promise it would be there. If that's an issue for you, email support and state your case. Whatever you do, don't buy the next version unless he states it will have it.

I buy every version because I am optimistic and because nothing beats bang for the buck like sports sim games AND because I like supporting the independent game developers.


so you find OOTP financials need editing, so you do, great. I may want to go over and edit 100s of players in the NFL because I enjoy the experience more when the players match my expectations better. The Brady-Tannehill example is perfect. I never play as those teams, they rarely matter in my league - but if I play a game, have X factor turned off and Tannehill is twice as good as Brady that ruins the enjoyment for me. If over time he develops to be better that is fine. but as a starting point, you might was well have individual game tickets cost 9 billion dollars - it ruins immersion and immersion is everything in sports simulations. Someone else may want only good left handed QBs or whatever. doesn't really matter - but the end user should be able to edit their world the way the want it.

I think this is the entire point.

I could care less about multi player in any game (my real world time for gaming doesn't match up) But I would never argue it should be taken out, multi player IS the reason many people play and that is fine.

If someone doesn't care about editing players, great - dont do it. but no reason to support NOT adding it simply because you wouldn't or wouldn't even see the point.

OOTP and FM both have huge feature sets I will never use, but that is fine they are there for the people that want them.

Madden is loaded with crap I could care less about, oh wait, bad example.

the point is when you make games with lots of options it increases the enjoy ability for many at the expense of no one. that is why I am always in favor of options, editing, play it "your" way options. For the life of me I have no idea what anyone would want to play a Lord of the Rings based ootp world, but plenty seem to and good for them.

more customization, more happy customers, more sales, more versions, more money for Jim with no downside.

[thrym]

I could care less about multi player in any game

I am right with you!

I would like to add, I use to play a LOT of FPS and some real-time strategy games on PC. I would lament and become verbally abusive to people who would use cheats and 'god-mode' trainers even in single player environments. I was a serious a-hole about it.

One day I woke up and realized, it matters not in the least to me how someone else enjoys their single-player game. Even now, if I am playing a single-player RPG, twitch type game that has a story, I will play it on the easiest settings cause I like to explore and beat things up. Others want to play them on the hardest level and then even come back and play them on Next Game + modes. How you play doesn't affect my enjoyment at all.

HOWEVER...

Once you open that can of worms by making it possible to "cheat" in SPer mode, it isn't a far drop for crapheads to do it in MPer. MANY old Fantasy Hockey Leagues were killed by rampant cheating(usually by the commissioner or with his/her 'permission' anyway). Even online shooters in the recent years have been ruined by this kind of thing.

I think once the poop is out of the goose, there's no putting it back in. That may be why there isn't an 'easy' way to do it in this game.

Just my 2 cents...

[TroyF]

I buy every version because I am optimistic and because nothing beats bang for the buck like sports sim games AND because I like supporting the independent game developers.


so you find OOTP financials need editing, so you do, great. I may want to go over and edit 100s of players in the NFL because I enjoy the experience more when the players match my expectations better. The Brady-Tannehill example is perfect. I never play as those teams, they rarely matter in my league - but if I play a game, have X factor turned off and Tannehill is twice as good as Brady that ruins the enjoyment for me. If over time he develops to be better that is fine. but as a starting point, you might was well have individual game tickets cost 9 billion dollars - it ruins immersion and immersion is everything in sports simulations. Someone else may want only good left handed QBs or whatever. doesn't really matter - but the end user should be able to edit their world the way the want it.

I think this is the entire point.

I could care less about multi player in any game (my real world time for gaming doesn't match up) But I would never argue it should be taken out, multi player IS the reason many people play and that is fine.

If someone doesn't care about editing players, great - dont do it. but no reason to support NOT adding it simply because you wouldn't or wouldn't even see the point.

OOTP and FM both have huge feature sets I will never use, but that is fine they are there for the people that want them.

Madden is loaded with crap I could care less about, oh wait, bad example.

the point is when you make games with lots of options it increases the enjoy ability for many at the expense of no one. that is why I am always in favor of options, editing, play it "your" way options. For the life of me I have no idea what anyone would want to play a Lord of the Rings based ootp world, but plenty seem to and good for them.

more customization, more happy customers, more sales, more versions, more money for Jim with no downside.

For the record, I don't play multi player FOF.

My comment was geared toward Drachma who said this game wasn't geared toward fictional players. It is.

I am in favor of options, but I would rather have a game with minimal options that does what it sets out to do perfectly rather than a game with half a billion options that you have to edit so you can have a good league.

You talk about no downside for Jim. . . What about his vision as the developer of this game? He's a single developer and this is clearly not what he wants this game to be. You act like these are simple tweaks he can make for the hell of it. Adding a full blown editor takes time away from the development of the engine of the game. He doesn't want to sacrifice that time to add something he doesn't feel is important.

You are right about there being little to no competition for an Amercan Football text sim. Thing is, I would be stunned if anything ever topped this game. This isn't "fanboy" Troy talking either. The game is so polished and so well done, I'll believe there will be a better version an NFL sim when I see it. (and I'll try, believe me, I will try to look for better games)

[TroyF]

One other quick note here:

It doesn't seem a vast majority of FOF players care about this feature either.

There are 5 unique posts here with people agreeing with you and wanting this. I have no idea how many people have emailed Jim to ask for it. But if this thread is any indication, the masses are not knocking down Jim's door to beg for this.

[Hammer]

One other quick note here:

It doesn't seem a vast majority of FOF players care about this feature either.

There are 5 unique posts here with people agreeing with you and wanting this. I have no idea how many people have emailed Jim to ask for it. But if this thread is any indication, the masses are not knocking down Jim's door to beg for this.

Many of us have just given up asking, many years ago in my case.

[dave1927p]

One other quick note here:

It doesn't seem a vast majority of FOF players care about this feature either.

There are 5 unique posts here with people agreeing with you and wanting this. I have no idea how many people have emailed Jim to ask for it. But if this thread is any indication, the masses are not knocking down Jim's door to beg for this.

Speak for yourself, not others. By that logic, more people in this thread still state they want it than don't. Either way, this is not a vote. It's someone's request.

I would love an editor of some sort too. That alone would make me take the leap from 7 to 8

[Yoda]

One other quick note here:

It doesn't seem a vast majority of FOF players care about this feature either.

There are 5 unique posts here with people agreeing with you and wanting this. I have no idea how many people have emailed Jim to ask for it. But if this thread is any indication, the masses are not knocking down Jim's door to beg for this.

I don't know about vast majority, but I do not want an editor.

[Artaud]

...I would love an editor of some sort too. That alone would make me take the leap from 7 to 8

I would love to see a player editor. Bigger text and/or a more readable font and an editor would make version 8 a must-purchase for me. As it is, there's no reason for me to move on from FoF2007.

How can having more options ever be a bad thing?

When I started posting on the FM forums in the early 2000s I asked for a "can't get fired" option. I was repeatedly insulted by other forum members. It was as if I had asked them to sacrifice their first-born children. The idea that someone, somewhere might be playing the game in a way different from the way they played it was heresy.

Now, the "light" version of FM has a "can't get fired" option...and the sun still rises each morning.

Having more options, offering more ways for more people to enjoy a game, can never be a bad thing.

[Michael V.]

One other quick note here:

It doesn't seem a vast majority of FOF players care about this feature either.

There are 5 unique posts here with people agreeing with you and wanting this. I have no idea how many people have emailed Jim to ask for it. But if this thread is any indication, the masses are not knocking down Jim's door to beg for this.


Ahhh....just for the record...
I DO care about having the ability to edit/create players and teams.

I PERSONALLY think many do not bother to say anything because, umm....well, why?? Several have voiced their opinions/suggestions/concerns for such a long time and nothing has been done to appease them. So, maybe they now just assume it's a waste of their time even bringing it up.

I'm one of them...

[Michael V.]

Many of us have just given up asking, many years ago in my case.

^^^
THIS

[Michael V.]

Btw...

I'm almost to the point where I'd be willing to invest in creating an 'American football' sim by way of financial means or services. This only because I am no where skilled enough to develope any type of game/simulation.

If given the right business plan, I'd be extremely interested.

[Nemesis]

I see a player editor like that giving away scouting error. Not something I want others, or myself knowing in detail.

[Ben E Lou]

I see a player editor like that giving away scouting error. Not something I want others, or myself knowing in detail.
Exactly. The "it doesn't ruin MP in OOTP" argument doesn't stand up, because the games are designed very, very differently. OOTP has wayyyyyyy more randomness in its player creation and development model than FOF. As a result, having the kind of enhanced understanding of true player ratings compared to how the player presents initially that someone could gain by using an editor isn't a factor in OOTP MP leagues. However, give us an editor in FOF MP and it would be far too easy to "crack the code." The current frustration fostered by the sort of above-the-bell-curve drafting ability that some individuals have in FOF MP now would be laughable compared to what would happen if this stuff could be examined with an editor.

[Michael V.]

Okay, but what about those who are strictly single player only?? It seems that the single player people these days are getting left by the way side and MP being much more catered to.

That's just my opinion, of course. I would love to see an editor and I'd even pay for it. Having said that, I don't see it happening for FOF.
Oh well...

[Ben E Lou]

Okay, but what about those who are strictly single player only?? It seems that the single player people these days are getting left by the way side and MP being much more catered to.Eh, I don't know if that's *why* from Jim's perspective there's no editor, but the first post makes the claim that it wouldn't ruin multi-player. I'm saying that oh yes, it would, and it's the primary reason that I'm 100% against having one.

That said, as someone who plays both SP and MP, I would say unequivocally that over the years SP has gotten more thought/attention than MP. SP-only people wouldn't notice the areas where SP is helped but MP either gets no gain or is actually hurt by certain design decisions.

[NawlinsFan]

Personally I see FOF as taking a different path from let's say Madden. One of the inherent challenges in FOF is to take a set of in-game generated players that we do not have all of the data on and to have to consume what information we have to try and put together a franchise that is competitive. Damn, sounds like real life kind of. I mean I am the king of selecting players that are a bust.

After having played FOF for like ever I am one that doesn't see the fun or challenge anymore in being able to edit player abilities and ratings. Seems it would dilute the fun in the game if you go into it having know doubt what you are going to get from it. It's like drafting Bo Jackson from a historical file with the x-factor off. No surprise there that he will likely be a beast, barring an injury. But when I select Sterling Hackenstuff from a game file with great combines I am still uncertain that he will amount to anything.

To each his own though.

[Hammer]

I won't pretend I know anything about the programming side. I don't go deep into testing either. But I imagined this as a simple switch. You turned editor off for MP. On, if you wanted to, for SP. So if you don't like it that way, don't play it that way. I think it would being in a lot of new players and also please many of the existing players.

So the opinion of those who don't want it would become null and void, they wouldn't have to involved with it.

[Ben E Lou]

I won't pretend I know anything about the programming side. I don't go deep into testing either. But I imagined this as a simple switch. You turned editor off for MP. On, if you wanted to, for SP. So if you don't like it that way, don't play it that way. I think it would being in a lot of new players and also please many of the existing players.

So the opinion of those who don't want it would become null and void, they wouldn't have to involved with it.With an editor that you could turn on in SP, there would be people who could draft 100% "hits" (apart from VSOD, of course,) in MP. We're talking significantly more accurate drafting than anything you've ever seen from MalcPow, me, or anyone else (well, unless you played in an FOF2K4 league with someone who cheated.)

[Hammer]

Okay I take your word for that. I don't think I ever played in a FOF2K4 league with someone who cheated. When we rolled over to FOF7 it was the same guys who were the top players. There was never a hint of any suspicious declines. It was common knowledge that we could cheat, but we didn't. It was just a game and we all knew it would spoil the league.

So with that in mind I don't see why a simple gentlemans agreement not to do it wouldn't put this to bed. I don't know if there was much cheating going in the leagues you played in, but I believe it certainly is possible for this to be a non factor.

[Ben E Lou]

Okay I take your word for that. I don't think I ever played in a FOF2K4 league with someone who cheated. When we rolled over to FOF7 it was the same guys who were the top players. There was never a hint of any suspicious declines. It was common knowledge that we could cheat, but we didn't. It was just a game and we all knew it would spoil the league.Hmmmm...you're skipping a version. FOF2K4 gave lots of opportunity to cheat. (Real ratings weren't encrypted...people could sim forward, probably some others I'm forgetting.) FOF2K7 closed those holes.

So with that in mind I don't see why a simple gentlemans agreement not to do it wouldn't put this to bed. I don't know if there was much cheating going in the leagues you played in, but I believe it certainly is possible for this to be a non factor.You're not following me here. I'm not talking about someone cheating. I'm saying that with an editor and the information that one could glean from it by doing research in SP, they could become so good at drafting without cheating that it would be virtually as good as someone who cheated in FOF2K4 by simming forward or peeking at the game's unencrypted data files. (It happened in a league I was in during FOF2K4 days.)

[Hammer]

I think you have persuaded me on this one. I think most of us would resist the temptation as it would largely spoil the game. No doubt others would view it differently and exploit the opportunity. That would open a can of worms which would outweigh the potential benefits, agreed.

[Noop]

So because people would have an advantage in MP does of us who have zero in MP must go without an editor?

I am sure there are things that can be done to remove any competitive advantage.

I enjoy this game but for players like me who like to see what a superstar with scrubs can do the lack of an editor is frustrating.

[sirotka33]

How would a player editor that is only enabled with a password in MP leagues be a downfall for MP?

That's how every other simulation sports game handles it.

[Ben E Lou]

How would a player editor that is only enabled with a password in MP leagues be a downfall for MP?.Already answered this in quite a bit of detail:

The "it doesn't ruin MP in OOTP" argument doesn't stand up, because the games are designed very, very differently. OOTP has wayyyyyyy more randomness in its player creation and development model than FOF. As a result, having the kind of enhanced understanding of true player ratings compared to how the player presents initially that someone could gain by using an editor isn't a factor in OOTP MP leagues. However, give us an editor in FOF MP and it would be far too easy to "crack the code." The current frustration fostered by the sort of above-the-bell-curve drafting ability that some individuals have in FOF MP now would be laughable compared to what would happen if this stuff could be examined with an editor.I'm not talking about someone cheating. I'm saying that with an editor and the information that one could glean from it by doing research in SP, they could become so good at drafting without cheating that it would be virtually as good as someone who cheated in FOF2K4 by simming forward or peeking at the game's unencrypted data files. (It happened in a league I was in during FOF2K4 days.)With an editor that you could turn on in SP, there would be people who could draft 100% "hits" (apart from VSOD, of course,) in MP. We're talking significantly more accurate drafting than anything you've ever seen from MalcPow, me, or anyone else (well, unless you played in an FOF2K4 league with someone who cheated.)

[Ben E Lou]

So because people would have an advantage in MP does of us who have zero in MP must go without an editor?I don't think anyone has said that's *why* Jim doesn't include an editor. Again, the first poster threw out the incorrect claim that it wouldn't hurt MP in FOF because it doesn't in OOTP. I stand by my strong assertion that it absolutely would hurt MP because of the research in SP that people could do with it.

But no one is saying that's why. I'll be the first to say that I *doubt* that's why. My first guess would be priorities: one-man shop, and it's somewhere on his list, but not high enough to have made it into the game yet. It could also be that he's worried that people would use it to juice up stats and then post them as "the game is broken" around the internet. It could be that the code structure wasn't originally set up to allow for an editor, so as a result it would require a major rewrite that wouldn't be worth the time spent. It could be that it doesn't fit into his vision of where he wants to take FOF. It could be none of these things. It could be a combination of all of these things.

I am sure there are things that can be done to remove any competitive advantage.Maybe, but I strongly suspect that it goes back to how much time it would take. Somewhat-predictable-but-very-difficult-to-master drafting is baked into the DNA of FOF. It's a core concept. As long as that's a big part of the game, an editor could allow people to "crack the code" of drafting fully.

I enjoy this game but for players like me who like to see what a superstar with scrubs can do the lack of an editor is frustrating.You can create a team like that at the start of a league; you just can't change it later. That's an easy one. Just modify the standard players.csv to create an all-9 QB (or whatever position you want,) stick 0s in there (or whatever "scrub" level you're looking for) for the rest of the players on the team you'll control, and you're all set. That sort of setup could be done in less than 5 minutes.