Louis CK & Other Hollywood/Celebrity Types Sexual Misconduct

[Ben E Lou]

...

[Logan]

Feels like this has been hinted at for at least a year.

[Ben E Lou]

Story just hit. NYT.

[ISiddiqui]

Looks like the story just dropped.

Louis C.K. Crossed a Line Into Sexual Misconduct, 5 Women Say - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=66063419&pgtype=Homepage)

He masturbated in front of 2 female comedians and harassed 3 others.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Damn it.

[Neuqua]

Well this sucks.

[mckerney]

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web03/2011/8/12/11/enhanced-buzz-30073-1313164157-1.jpg

[korme]

Surprised it took this long

[HomerSimpson98]

maybe we should start a thread for people that havent been charged with sexual shenanigans

[RainMaker]

It might be easier to make threads about people in Hollywood who aren't complete perverts toward women.

Edit: beaten by a second!

[HomerSimpson98]

woo-hoo!

[molson]

maybe we should start a thread for people that havent been charged with sexual shenanigans

1. Frank Stallone

Actually I had to google that, and then I found articles about a sexual harassment lawsuit against Sly Stallone, from back in the old days of March 2017 when that kind of thing wasn't a career killer.

I think Frank's clean though.

[sabotai]

I think the old Norm MacDonald SNL bit every time I see a headline for someone who is the best at something (usually sports related)

"Through 9 weeks, Alex Smith is #1 in Passer Rating"

"And coming in at 2nd place, you guessed it. Frank Stallone."

[Suicane75]

Louis CK is a very good sexual predator. He's only a bad sexual predator compared to other, professional, sexual predators.

[Autumn]

Time to just burn it all down and start over?

This is the first of these that really disappointed me. But I actually hope they drag every asshole out into the light, like I hope this goes on for months and months and maybe then it will be clear to these guys their shit ain't allowed.

[Logan]

There's a lot of things I (thankfully) don't understand about the behavior that results in these kind of stories. But what might be the craziest is how, after doing these things, being accused of these things, and apologizing for these things, you still make it part of your very public act.

[CrescentMoonie]

I haven't even read it, but Tig Notaro has been openly talking about this stuff for a while now.

[CrimsonFox]

I have a friend that looks a lot like him. He is probably hiding his face a lot now.

[Toddzilla]

Surprised it took this long
+1

[Edward64]

Surprised it took this long

Yup, you could see it coming.

[PilotMan]

First story I saw regarding rumors was Gawker back in 2012. The rumors have been out there for a while.

[thesloppy]

Yeah these rumors have been out there forever, that said, I think they were also explicitly denied to be about CK by the person who made them (and eventually CK himself), so it's still kind of a small surprise to see them turn out to be true. And it's weird that he was kind of courting the rumours and explicitly exploring these themes apparently while he was doing the same skeezy stuff..some kinda weird shame/compulsion shit going on?

Upon reflection it kinda makes all the aggressive "my kids (who all happen to be daughters) are shitty" humor kind of uncomfortable. I remember him kinda trashing the his ex-wife on his show, as a character as well. Which is not at all to say that he's a pedo or anything sexual, so much as he just doesn't sound great as the only/main parental influence for a couple of young daughters, after reconsidering his comedy with the benefit of hindsight.

[Fidatelo]

He's always just generally made me uncomfortable, and so has never been a comedian I really enjoyed, so this news doesn't hurt nearly in the way the Cosby revelations did.

[panerd]

I think what Louis CK has going for him that maybe others don't is that I'm not sure he ever tried to have some other persona. Cosby was brought up in this thread but not only did Cosby claim to be super clean but he lectured those who weren't. Louis CK seemed to basically say in his act and interviews what kind of a dirtbag he is. I just don't see this effecting his fans much. Probably kills his leap to mainstream megastar but maybe in some sort of Freudian subconscious way he didn't want that anyways?

[QuikSand]

I semi-agree that the lack of hypocrisy is a benefit for him, but I don't think you can forecast little effect. There's always the element of "do I want to support/enrich this person?" in play... and as a one-man show (especially since he's gone so far into distributing his material himself, etc) that seems to land hard on him.

I think he's possibly the very best stand up comedian ever - or at least the last 5-10 years have put him into that conversation - and I'll likely hesitate to go and spend money on something from him. Does that make me willfully naive or hypocritical (if we all "saw this coming" pun maybe intended) for enjoying him all these years? I don't know.

[Toddzilla]

I've been a huge fan too - you can even see me in the front rows of his last Netflix special "2017" - but unless there's a complete mea culpa and he takes full ownership of this and apologizes, I'm never going to watch or listen to another second that creep does ever again.

[PilotMan]

I semi-agree that the lack of hypocrisy is a benefit for him, but I don't think you can forecast little effect. There's always the element of "do I want to support/enrich this person?" in play... and as a one-man show (especially since he's gone so far into distributing his material himself, etc) that seems to land hard on him.

I think he's possibly the very best stand up comedian ever - or at least the last 5-10 years have put him into that conversation - and I'll likely hesitate to go and spend money on something from him. Does that make me willfully naive or hypocritical (if we all "saw this coming" pun maybe intended) for enjoying him all these years? I don't know.

He's been my favorite comedian for a long while now and I'm with you in feeling conflicted. I did willfully ignore the rumors, and wanted them to be wrong.

[Kodos]

Somewhere out there, Paul Reubens is feeling pretty good about himself.

[CrimsonFox]

spacey, Moore, CK....who's next? trump???

[Kodos]

My wife told me last night that Charlie Sheen was accused by Corey Feldman of sexually assaulting Corey Haim. Does that count?

I think Barney the dinosaur is next.

[CrimsonFox]

My wife told me last night that Charlie Sheen was accused by Corey Feldman of sexually assaulting Corey Haim. Does that count?

I think Barney the dinosaur is next.

did he try to explore Dora?

[JonInMiddleGA]

did he try to explore Dora?

puts a whole diff spin on the reason for the slight D-D-D-Dora stutter I guess.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Somewhere out there, Paul Reubens is feeling pretty good about himself.

Hey, feeling good about himself is what got him in trouble the first time

[mckerney]

My wife told me last night that Charlie Sheen was accused by Corey Feldman of sexually assaulting Corey Haim. Does that count?

I think Barney the dinosaur is next.

And Chloe from Smallville is allegedly second in command of a sex cult...

[Kodos]

puts a whole diff spin on the reason for the slight D-D-D-Dora stutter I guess.

Just what exactly was Swiper trying to swipe?!

[Logan]

I see a lot of fellow comedians/friends of CK getting shit online about either ignoring rumors in the past, or not coming out with strong statements "denouncing" CK. Is it just me, or are we not allowing people to have normal human conflicting thoughts on how to properly deal with this stuff? I'm sure it's difficult coming to grips with the idea that your friend isn't actually who you think he is, and people will struggle with that whether they're celebrities with money or normal schmucks like us.

I see the Twitter mob going after a guy like Aziz Ansari and I just don't get it. To me, as long as you're not victim shaming or outright denying/questioning the motivation of the accusers, let these people react however they feel is right.

[QuikSand]

mobs get unruly, that's what they do

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is it just me, or are we not allowing people to have normal human conflicting thoughts on how to properly deal with this stuff?

I'm reminded a bit (maybe more than just a bit?) of the whole big gaming/YT/social media kerfluffle known as Gamergate.

While I largely ignored that mess, wasn't one notable element of it how there were basically packs going after this person or that person based on their perceived reaction to some previous element of it?

Like Quik said, this is kinda what mobs DO.

[Butter]

I was in a ruly mob once.

Pretty boring. Lots of paperwork.

[Ben E Lou]

In case you missed it...I want to address the stories told to The New York Times by five women named Abby, Rebecca, Dana, Julia who felt able to name themselves and one who did not.

These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was okay because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true. But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn’t a question. It’s a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly.

I have been remorseful of my actions. And I’ve tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now I’m aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position.

I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it.

There is nothing about this that I forgive myself for. And I have to reconcile it with who I am. Which is nothing compared to the task I left them with.

I wish I had reacted to their admiration of me by being a good example to them as a man and given them some guidance as a comedian, including because I admired their work.

The hardest regret to live with is what you’ve done to hurt someone else. And I can hardly wrap my head around the scope of hurt I brought on them. I’d be remiss to exclude the hurt that I’ve brought on people who I work with and have worked with who’s professional and personal lives have been impacted by all of this, including projects currently in production: the cast and crew of Better Things, Baskets, The Cops, One Mississippi, and I Love You Daddy. I deeply regret that this has brought negative attention to my manager Dave Becky who only tried to mediate a situation that I caused. I’ve brought anguish and hardship to the people at FX who have given me so much The Orchard who took a chance on my movie. and every other entity that has bet on me through the years.

I’ve brought pain to my family, my friends, my children and their mother.

I have spent my long and lucky career talking and saying anything I want. I will now step back and take a long time to listen.

Thank you for reading.

[QuikSand]

I'm reluctant to say anything that sounds anything at all like "well, all is forgiven," but I'd say this: for the countless shitheads who puke out a non-apology in a situation like this, this is a lot closer to how you're supposed do it when the chips are down.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm reluctant to say anything that sounds anything at all like "well, all is forgiven," but I'd say this: for the countless shitheads who puke out a non-apology in a situation like this, this is a lot closer to how you're supposed do it when the chips are down.Amen.

[Butter]

I mean, I could've done without the awards show paragraph where he names all of his shows in production and his agent.

But sure.

[thesloppy]

That was a decent apology.

I'm relatively bummed that the recent revolution of abuse reporting has revealed one of my closest friends to be kind of a creepy dude. Literally every time one of these stories comes up he immediately segues into a long explanation about why he's not trying to blame the victims, before coming up with some way to gaslight/question the victims (usually along the lines of "Why didn't they just leave?"). Once or twice I might be able to look past, since we're both old farts who love to play devil's advocate, but EVERY time, and with some conviction, is something of a red flag.

I've started to try to check him to the best of my ability (which admittedly isn't much), but it's easier said than done, when talking with a close personal friend, rather than a strawman, or some construct on the internet. Like Louis and a lot of these dudes, I think my friend's issues with women (and himself) are largely based in shame and there's a real challenge in trying to check someone's core behavior without also making them feel more shamed/judged, which might just serve to make the attitude/behavior even worse.

Anybody else dealing with similar challenges these days?

[korme]

I'm reluctant to say anything that sounds anything at all like "well, all is forgiven," but I'd say this: for the countless shitheads who puke out a non-apology in a situation like this, this is a lot closer to how you're supposed do it when the chips are down.

It seems more like a confession than an apology, in my opinion.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah. I know a lot of it is that I'm a huge fan of his, but that's about as good as you can write an apology in this sort of scenario.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm reluctant to say anything that sounds anything at all like "well, all is forgiven," but I'd say this: for the countless shitheads who puke out a non-apology in a situation like this, this is a lot closer to how you're supposed do it when the chips are down.

Yep. Though I do think his manager was pretty slimy as well. I know he was trying to let him off the hook, but still.

[bhlloy]

He's always just generally made me uncomfortable, and so has never been a comedian I really enjoyed, so this news doesn't hurt nearly in the way the Cosby revelations did.

Yup, totally this. His comedy is creepy and unfunny to me, so to see him exposed as a creep in real life? Shocker alert.

[miami_fan]

That was a decent apology.

I'm relatively bummed that the recent revolution of abuse reporting has revealed one of my closest friends to be kind of a creepy dude. Literally every time one of these stories comes up he immediately segues into a long explanation about why he's not trying to blame the victims, before coming up with some way to gaslight/question the victims (usually along the lines of "Why didn't they just leave?"). Once or twice I might be able to look past, since we're both old farts who love to play devil's advocate, but EVERY time, and with some conviction, is something of a red flag.

I've started to try to check him to the best of my ability (which admittedly isn't much), but it's easier said than done, when talking with a close personal friend, rather than a strawman, or some construct on the internet. Like Louis and a lot of these dudes, I think my friend's issues with women (and himself) are largely based in shame and there's a real challenge in trying to check someone's core behavior without also making them feel more shamed/judged, which might just serve to make the attitude/behavior even worse.

Anybody else dealing with similar challenges these days?

After reading the apology, I found myself just saying "Ok, now what" specifically because of these types of challenges.

[CrimsonFox]

some facebook people already angry at the apologies and not accepting them at all

[PilotMan]

Yup, totally this. His comedy is creepy and unfunny to me, so to see him exposed as a creep in real life? Shocker alert.

His humor, in my opinion, is exceptionally and sometimes painfully honest. This, like all things will need some time to deal. I think he will recover from it, but not before a good bit of time off, and perhaps an apology tour after a while. It reminds me of "say it ain't so, Joe". People we really like sometimes just plain let us down.

[Drake]

I think it's a genius apology -- some Jonathan Swift caliber satire. He gets to mention his dick like 6 times in the first two paragraphs, talk about all of his current projects, and self-flagellate enough that he somehow manages to invalidate the notion of sexual harassment trauma before anyone else can make the argument. It's an apology so heartfelt that it silences his accusers, who can't grandstand on it without damaging their own credibility by appearing vindictive. Put in the larger (Weinstein) context, it steals the moral thrust of sexual harassment and weaponizes "feeling bad" in a way that minimizes the whole story. I mean, the narrative lumps him in with the Weinstein's of the world, but the contrast he creates by being so heartfelt and seemingly authentic paints him more in the category of excusable foibles and bandwagon victims who aren't really so victimized after all.

He's literally apologizing for showing his dick in such a way that you can't help but imagine Louis C.K.'s dick while you're reading it.

I mean, I'd expect a long con like that more from Sacha Baron Cohen, but I can appreciate solid craft when I see it.

[CrimsonFox]

so are we never ready to accept an actual apology when we hear one?
maybe we think there is no such thing.

and that of course is the Royal "we"
(not to be confused with Louis CK's...er...never mind)

[Drake]

Oh, I'm 50/50 on it being a completely sincere apology.

I'm also 50/50 on hearing a year from now in his comeback autobiography that the whole thing was a con and this story was cooked up in the back room of a comedy club as a social commentary on the tendency of sexual harassment reporting to morph into hysterical extremes of itself.

ETA: Then again, I'm also the guy who posts the certificates of completion from our organization's annual sexual harassment training prominently in my cubicle, so I might have an over-developed sense of irony in this regard.

[Drake]

Additionally, I'm not really up on comedians and am only familiar with Louis C.K. to the extent that I know he's a famous comedian, so I might be giving him more credit for cleverness than he deserves.

[CrimsonFox]

I was kinda thinking that comedians get into this kind of trouble more as sometimes they go too far for a joke. And can't shut off that "trying to make people laugh" thing. But actually even though there have been plenty of shock comedians over the years...they really haven't gotten into THIS degree of trouble. In the past it was more "Advocacy Group shames comedian that says "wee-wee"" like the Andrew Dice Clays and such.

That's kinda why I'm surprised all these celebrities are suddenly getting shishkabobbed. It isn't like this is really new.

[thesloppy]

That's kinda why I'm surprised all these celebrities are suddenly getting shishkabobbed. It isn't like this is really new.

The same friend I mentioned in a post above also loves a version of this argument as some sort of broad dismissal of the importance of these things (which isn't necessarily what you're doing, and I don't mean as a criticism). I think the key is that absolutely none of what is happening is new, but celebrities and people in power being widely held responsible for their actions IS new, and something we should definitely celebrate and encourage to continue, rather than question and expect to fade.

[miami_fan]

That's kinda why I'm surprised all these celebrities are suddenly getting shishkabobbed. It isn't like this is really new.

I think this is why there can be so much push back on the apologies.

It is not something new but yet when it happens we (Royal we) keeping acting like it is the first time we are hearing it.

[korme]

I think it's a genius apology -- some Jonathan Swift caliber satire. He gets to mention his dick like 6 times in the first two paragraphs, talk about all of his current projects, and self-flagellate enough that he somehow manages to invalidate the notion of sexual harassment trauma before anyone else can make the argument. It's an apology so heartfelt that it silences his accusers, who can't grandstand on it without damaging their own credibility by appearing vindictive. Put in the larger (Weinstein) context, it steals the moral thrust of sexual harassment and weaponizes "feeling bad" in a way that minimizes the whole story. I mean, the narrative lumps him in with the Weinstein's of the world, but the contrast he creates by being so heartfelt and seemingly authentic paints him more in the category of excusable foibles and bandwagon victims who aren't really so victimized after all.

He's literally apologizing for showing his dick in such a way that you can't help but imagine Louis C.K.'s dick while you're reading it.

I mean, I'd expect a long con like that more from Sacha Baron Cohen, but I can appreciate solid craft when I see it.

Nailed it

[CrimsonFox]

The same friend I mentioned in a post above also loves a version of this argument as some sort of broad dismissal of the importance of these things (which isn't necessarily what you're doing, and I don't mean as a criticism). I think the key is that absolutely none of what is happening is new, but celebrities and people in power being widely held responsible for their actions IS new, and something we should definitely celebrate and encourage to continue, rather than question and expect to fade.

yeah I'm not dismissing it. Just a rather obvious observation.

And continued disgust that people like O Reilly and Trump keep getting a free ride in life.

[CrimsonFox]

uh oh...
Now Tom Hanks...

https://bluerockpublicradio.com/another-actress-steps-forward-accusing-tom-hanks-of-being-nice-f4eec3485206

[Butter]

Nailed it

Agreed.

He also never actually apologizes in there. I don't think either sorry or apologize appears in it.

[HomerSimpson98]

irresponsibly

remorseful

I’m aware of the extent of the impact of my actions

brought hardship to them

There is nothing about this that I forgive myself for. And I have to reconcile it with who I am. Which is nothing compared to the task I left them with.

I wish I had reacted

The hardest regret to live with is what you’ve done to hurt someone else. And I can hardly wrap my head around the scope of hurt I brought on them.

I deeply regret

I’ve brought anguish and hardship

I’ve brought pain


These are directly from his statement. Yeah "sorry" or "apologize" doesnt appear there, but to me these carry a little more weight.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah I think he definitely apologizes by any reasonable understanding of that word. My main problems with his statement:

1) His defense of Dave Becky.

2) His explanation of why he thought it was okay. That doesn't need to be here.

[Autumn]

Yeah I think he definitely apologizes by any reasonable understanding of that word. My main problems with his statement:

1) His defense of Dave Becky.

2) His explanation of why he thought it was okay. That doesn't need to be here.

His explanation was unpleasant to read, but I actually appreciated him sharing it. It doesn't make him look any better, but it helps me to understand how people get into situations like his, when to the rest of us his behavior just seems bonkers.

[larrymcg421]

His explanation was unpleasant to read, but I actually appreciated him sharing it. It doesn't make him look any better, but it helps me to understand how people get into situations like his, when to the rest of us his behavior just seems bonkers.

It's more that I think he should've shared the explanation at another time and not as a part of his apology statement.

[CrimsonFox]

It almost seems like there is a someone somewhere digging up all these skeletons and pushing the victims to come forward.

[larrymcg421]

It almost seems like there is a someone somewhere digging up all these skeletons and pushing the victims to come forward.

I think it's that people are feeling more comfortable that they will be believed now.

[Autumn]

Yes, I think for the first time, people are saying victims being believed, and so it is created a climate where it finally feels like if you come forward something will happen from it. When the Cosby allegations came out, despite having huge numbers of women just like now, the public dug its feet in and doubted the stories for a very long time. That encourages people to keep silent. Seeing Weinstein go down and then others right after I think makes people feel like for once they will be at least believed, and perhaps something will happen, even if they're still forced to go public with some very upsetting things, and most likely receive some terrible pushback. But that pushback feels like a minority right now.

[CrimsonFox]

I noticed yesterday that there was a Colbert Late Show on my DVR where Louis CK was the guest. I watched and they replaced him with William H Macy. He DID mention C being the original guest in his monologue when he mentioned all the sex scandals.

[RainMaker]

I think it's that people are feeling more comfortable that they will be believed now.

Or they won't be blackballed. I mean people have said stuff about celebrities in the past but it usually ends up with that celebrity not working.

It's worth noting that these guys tended to prey on women who were younger, just getting into the business, and on a lower level than they were. Is a 23-year old who wants to be an actress going to call out the most powerful guy in Hollywood?

Also take a look at some of the extremes these guys went through. Weinstein was hiring retired Mossad agents to fuck with the accusers.

[Maple Leafs]

Or they won't be blackballed. I mean people have said stuff about celebrities in the past but it usually ends up with that celebrity not working.
Yeah, the risk/reward didn't really make sense for victims in the past. You knew you were going to be slandered, have your past dug up, and probably get blackballed in your own industry. And in return, the harasser/abuser might end up getting a few days of bad press and have to issue an apology, and then it would be right back to normal for him. I'm not surprised people weren't eager to speak up.

[JPhillips]

Roy Moore On Pedophilia Accusers: ‘These Women Are Only Discrediting Me Now Because Shifting Sociocultural Norms Have Created An Environment In Which Assault Allegations Are Taken Seriously’ (https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think it's that people are feeling more comfortable that they will be believed now.

Whether they're telling the truth or not.
#JusSayin

[Atocep]

Roy Moore On Pedophilia Accusers: ‘These Women Are Only Discrediting Me Now Because Shifting Sociocultural Norms Have Created An Environment In Which Assault Allegations Are Taken Seriously’ (https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898)


I assumed he actually said that. That's the state of today's republican party.

[PilotMan]

I know I totally thought that was legit.

[thesloppy]

Whether they're telling the truth or not.
#JusSayin

You know, you're right, I never thought another person could lie, until the 3,000,000th time I read it suggested on the internet. Thank you for your service.

[Autumn]

Whether they're telling the truth or not.
#JusSayin

I'm beginning to believe this Russian troll idea.

[CrimsonFox]

Roy Moore On Pedophilia Accusers: ‘These Women Are Only Discrediting Me Now Because Shifting Sociocultural Norms Have Created An Environment In Which Assault Allegations Are Taken Seriously’ (https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[superbama]

Making people uncomfortable was Ck's thing, always.

[Fidatelo]

Making people uncomfortable was Ck's thing, always.

What, like the backseat of a Volkswagen?

[CrimsonFox]

Making people uncomfortable was Ck's thing, always.

I never watched any of his standup but I loved him as the Dad in HOme Movies on adult swim

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3CY3cXaEv18" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[molson]

This list of celebrities accused of sexual harassment is only 3 days old and it's already out of date (it doesn't include Franken and Mark Schwahn - producer on the Royals and creator of One Tree Hill).

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/10/us/men-accused-sexual-misconduct-weinstein.html

These guys should get together and start their own production company and produce their own movies. Maybe start with a Spacey/Louis CK buddy cop comedy.

[bhlloy]

Wacky hijinks when Louis accidentally drinks his own roofied martini and wakes up with Spacey naked on top of him? Just insert laugh track here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wacky hijinks when Louis accidentally drinks his own roofied martini and wakes up with Spacey naked on top of him? Just insert laugh track here.

Al Franken is offended that you didn't find some way to include him in this.

[bhlloy]

Hey, I’m just working with the material Molson gave me. Maybe he can guest star and then become a main character in season 2

[Ben E Lou]

Sounds like Stallone is up next.

[CrimsonFox]

Life after Weinstein...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/10/us/men-accused-sexual-misconduct-weinstein.html

[Ben E Lou]

Matt Lauer fired.

[Ben E Lou]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPzGyyaUEAEvqu6.jpg

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NBC's Matt Lauer fired, inappropriate workplace behavior -- NBC chairman statement below. <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cnn</a> <a href="https://t.co/U5l9vVegg4">pic.twitter.com/U5l9vVegg4</a></p>&mdash; AnneClaire Stapleton (@AnneClaireCNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnneClaireCNN/status/935841480467533824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 29, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<script async="" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Edward64]

I liked Matt in the morning show, sorry to hear. Must be serious if he was canned suddenly.

[stevew]

That was nuts. Not sure why they made Savannah do it...she was obviously emotional as hell.

[Ksyrup]

George Stephanopolous is the Mark Stoops of male morning TV show hosts.

[Kodos]

Sounds like Elmo is in trouble. Rumor is it's something to do with Big Bird.

[cuervo72]

Sounds like Elmo is in trouble.

That's...kind of old news.

[Kodos]

He apparently invited Big Bird to "Elmo's world," where he demanded to be tickled.

[Ksyrup]

No, really, the dude who voiced Elmo was accused of sex abuse a few years ago. I think he was ultimately cleared, though, from what I recall.

[Kodos]

Truth is stranger than fiction.

[Logan]

Both the NY Times and Variety were said to be working on stories involving multiple women.

[Critch]

I knew Matt Lauer was a bad sort when he did that whole hair plug thing. Anybody who thinks they're too good to be bald is suspect, in my opinion.

[Thomkal]

sorry forgot we had this thread for this

[cuervo72]

lol

[CraigSca]

Both the NY Times and Variety were said to be working on stories involving multiple women.

And that the final straw was an alleged sexual assault of a co-worker at the Sochi Olympics. That's insane.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Garrison Keillor is out at Minn. Public Radio.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-fired-alleged-improper-behavior-minnesota-public-radio/905491001/

[DanGarion]

Life after Weinstein...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/10/us/men-accused-sexual-misconduct-weinstein.html

Why isn't George Takei on that list?

[digamma]

Garrison Keillor is out at Minn. Public Radio.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-fired-alleged-improper-behavior-minnesota-public-radio/905491001/

Wow, truly Whoa-He-Gone Days.

[Butter]

Boo!

[digamma]

More Like Whoa-He-Gone Days?

That's probably better delivery.

[Butter]

Sticking with "Boo."

[Ksyrup]

And that the final straw was an alleged sexual assault of a co-worker at the Sochi Olympics. That's insane.

EVERYONE apparently has sex at the Olympics! Or tries, anyway.

[Arles]

EVERYONE apparently has sex at the Olympics! Or tries, anyway.
True dat!

Plenty of action at Rio Olympics, which is why there are 450,000 condoms (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/rio-2016/2016/08/03/rio-olympics-450000-condoms-athletes-village/88039680/)

[RainMaker]

The Lauer story had to be bad because he's a huge deal and that firing seemed pretty quick. Wonder if they'll be able to void his contract or not.

[miami_fan]

Here is the first of many articles with some of the accusations.

Matt Lauer Accused of Sexual Harassment by Multiple Women (EXCLUSIVE) – Variety (http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/matt-lauer-accused-sexual-harassment-multiple-women-1202625959/)

Once again, it seems like we have another "open secret" situation.

[stevew]

Lauer probably deserves top billing on this thread. Just a wee bit more popular than Louis CK

[Ben E Lou]

Sea Level Rises Hundreds Of Feet Due To Sweat From Celebrities Waiting To Be Outed As Perverts (http://babylonbee.com/news/sea-level-rises-hundreds-feet-due-sweat-celebrities-waiting-outed-perverts/)

[PilotMan]

I'll out myself as a pervert, because you have to own that shit and everyone is on some level (or they should be), but these guys are fucking asshole fuckers who deserve every ounce of pain that's coming their way. That's not even on the same playing field. I'm happy to see it come to this.

[CrimsonFox]

Can you show me on this doll where PilotMan touched you?

[NobodyHere]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HkUqDkDI0hQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[JPhillips]

I could and probably have said to much, but I can't ever fathom grabbing a stranger's ass or masturbating at a coworker.

[thesloppy]

I could and probably have said to much, but I can't ever fathom grabbing a stranger's ass or masturbating at a coworker.

Ditto. I have a heaping helping of social anxiety and beyond all the sordid details these stories just perplex me because the last thing I'd ever want to do is destroy boundaries and initiate intimate contact with a stranger.

I've even gone so far as to realize that I allllmost think like a sexual predator....except for the crucial detail that it's defensive instead of offensive. Like, I'll immediately analyze a stranger for attractiveness and competitiveness (or lack thereof?), but I'm MUCH more likely to use that information to weasel out of more intimate social situations, rather than manipulate myself inwards.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't ever fathom grabbing a stranger's ass

Did that many years ago, led to the second longest & most serious relationship of my life.

The curveball is that I did it while I had a different girl sitting in my lap at the time.

[PilotMan]

When friends ask #whosnext I really want to say Goldberg.

[heybrad]

I struggle to ask for extra bread at a restaurant. How could I make the leap to grabbing someone's rear end?

[Logan]

I struggle to ask for extra bread at a restaurant. How could I make the leap to grabbing someone's rear end?

Going with "gimme some buns!" can get you covered on both.

[Kodos]

Nice work.

[Autumn]

Did that many years ago, led to the second longest & most serious relationship of my life.

The curveball is that I did it while I had a different girl sitting in my lap at the time.

Least surprising bit of news in this thread.

[booradley]

When friends ask #whosnext I really want to say Goldberg.

The current fave at my office is Mickey Mouse.

[DanGarion]

I'll out myself as a pervert, because you have to own that shit and everyone is on some level (or they should be), but these guys are fucking asshole fuckers who deserve every ounce of pain that's coming their way. That's not even on the same playing field. I'm happy to see it come to this.

It's one thing to think the stuff in your head it is another thing to actually act upon it. These guys are a whole other level than most people.

[DanGarion]

When friends ask #whosnext I really want to say Goldberg.

Whoopie or the Wrestler?

[RainMaker]

I understand some friendly flirting at work. We've all been there, especially in our younger days. But I'm really blown away by the guys just yanking it out and jerking off in front of co-workers. Like I've never heard of that stuff happening before. Heck, I still can't believe guys send unsolicited photos of their junk to women, let alone co-workers.

[Groundhog]

A few days ago I was sitting at a colleagues desk helping her with something, and she had her phone on the desk next to her keyboard, and a dick pic literally just flashed up on her lock screen. She was mortified, apparently a random tinder person. So yeah, I guess it happenst. Can't say its something that has ever entered my mind to do (unsolicited, especially), but I guess some folk's brains are wired differently.

[cuervo72]

Whoopie or the Wrestler?

Adam?

[JPhillips]

Last year a group of my college students were discussing the dick pics that they have been sent. Every single woman had a story, many of them from middle school.

[miami_fan]

Might need to add sports to the thread title.

https://jaysjournal.com/2017/11/30/blue-jays-gregg-zaun-fired-inappropriate-behaviour/

[PilotMan]

Whoopie or the Wrestler?

.

http://mrphenomenal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Watch-GoldBerg-Whos-Next-Online.jpg

[PilotMan]

I understand some friendly flirting at work. We've all been there, especially in our younger days. But I'm really blown away by the guys just yanking it out and jerking off in front of co-workers. Like I've never heard of that stuff happening before. Heck, I still can't believe guys send unsolicited photos of their junk to women, let alone co-workers.

Yeah, this was pretty much me. I can't imagine even thinking of doing this stuff.

A few days ago I was sitting at a colleagues desk helping her with something, and she had her phone on the desk next to her keyboard, and a dick pic literally just flashed up on her lock screen. She was mortified, apparently a random tinder person. So yeah, I guess it happenst. Can't say its something that has ever entered my mind to do (unsolicited, especially), but I guess some folk's brains are wired differently.

So my wife is very much into fitness, and she has friends who do bikini modeling, fitness competitions, photo shoots, etc. She said that there's a secret clan of very savvy women out there who will not tolerate rude, completely random, aggressive behavior (like random dick pics through messenger). Some of them have really, really, really regretted it. I can't say more. Anon's got nothing on these women.

[CrescentMoonie]

Adam?

Which Adam Goldberg?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Least surprising bit of news in this thread.

I know it's probably tough for some folks to imagine but, once upon a time, the world did not have a stick up its ass 99.99% of the time.

And not everybody actively sought to label themselves as a "victim".

[CrescentMoonie]

How has nobody come forward with stories about Graham Norton. He seems like exactly the guy who would be one of the worst.

[stevew]

Last year a group of my college students were discussing the dick pics that they have been sent. Every single woman had a story, many of them from middle school.

Listening to girls talk about their Uber/Lyft drivers attempting to stalk them always makes for some eye opening conversation.

If anyone has a woman in their life that uses these services, tell her to change her voicemail greeting to her name only. Drivers don't get your actual phone number(it's a redialer service) but if your VM has your phone number some of these shady fucks probably make note of it. Millennials never answer phone calls as is, so there's a good chance calls go to VM.

[DanGarion]

Which Adam Goldberg?

Hahha. :)

[QuikSand]

So, Mario Batali. Meh.

But, since I was among those who got into the game of parsing apologies (earlier in this thread, re" Louis CK) I wanted to post another one here.

Mario Batali Takes Leave Following Sexual Misconduct Allegations - Eater NY (https://ny.eater.com/2017/12/11/16759540/mario-batali-sexual-misconduct-allegations)

“I apologize to the people I have mistreated and hurt. Although the identities of most of the individuals mentioned in these stories have not been revealed to me, much of the behavior described does, in fact, match up with ways I have acted. That behavior was wrong and there are no excuses. I take full responsibility and am deeply sorry for any pain, humiliation or discomfort I have caused to my peers, employees, customers, friends and family.

“I have work to do to try to regain the trust of those I have hurt and disappointed. For this reason, I am going to step away from day-to-day operations of my businesses. We built these restaurants so that our guests could have fun and indulge, but I took that too far in my own behavior. I won’t make that mistake again. I want any place I am associated with to feel comfortable and safe for the people who work or dine there.

"I know my actions have disappointed many people. The successes I have enjoyed are owned by everyone on my team. The failures are mine alone. To the people who have been at my side during this time — my family, my partners, my employees, my friends, my fans — I am grateful for your support and hopeful that I can regain your respect and trust. I will spend the next period of time trying to do that.”

So, I'll go out on a limb and say that I respect his phrasing here: "The successes I have enjoyed are owned by everyone on my team. The failures are mine alone." I think that is a better way to talk big picture about this sort of thing.

Now, I'll sit back and wait to be told that I'm a hapless rube, yet again.

[Butter]

You're a hapless rube.

[JPhillips]

From my friends in the culinary world, I'd expect half or more of the big name chefs to have problems. The whole industry is overflowing with abuse and harassment.

[Ben E Lou]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Big news: NFL Network has suspended Marshall Faulk, Ike Taylor, and Heath Evans after sexual harassment claims have been made against them. Warren Sapp and Donovan McNabb, who are no longer with the network, are also accused.</p>&mdash; NFL Update (@MySportsUpdate) <a href="https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/status/940436541473660928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 12, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Kodos]

Wow. Feel sorry for any women who work there...

[Ben E Lou]

Wow. Feel sorry for any women who work there...Not shockingly, the allegations are some of the most overt we've seen....

She notes that Evans propositioned her multiple times and repeatedly made lewd overtures:

"Heath Evans sent Plaintiff nude pictures of himself on at least two separate occasions. Mr. Evans constantly propositioned Plaintiff to have sex with him. Mr. Evans also made several sexually inappropriate comments to Plaintiff, such as, 'you’re making me horny,'and 'needed to get in you deep and hard.'"

She describes Faulk asking her for her favorite sex position, whether she liked oral sex and whether she dated black men. Cantor claims that his behavior soon escalated into something physical:

"As time went on, Mr. Faulk became more aggressive, such as inviting Plaintiff to his hotel room, stroking and pulling out his genitals in front of her, pointing to his crotch and asking Plaintiff, 'when are you gonna get on this already?' He also pinned Plaintiff against a wall, demanding oral sex while he pulled his pants down."

She also describes harassment from NFL Network analysts who have since left the company. From Eric Davis:

...came into Plaintiff’s office pretending to ask for help with his clothes so he could grab and push/rub his body against Plaintiff. Mr. Davis made lewd comments to Plaintiff in her office and while on set, such as, “when are we going to spend time together?” “I want you so bad,” “my cock is so hard because of you right now,” “you look like a woman who knows what to do in bed,” “you look like you would be an animal in the sheets,” “[Mr. Davis] loved really rough sex and would love to be able to spank [Plaintiff] so hard it would leave marks,” “can tell you like it rough and would love it.” Mr. Davis also asked Plaintiff to have rough sex with him, and said that he wanted to choke Plaintiff from behind until Plaintiff begged him to stop. Also, while Plaintiff was working on set on a ladder, Mr. Davis grabbed Plaintiff’s behind, slid his hand between Plaintiff’s legs, and touched Plaintiff’s privates, while saying, “I can’t handle your ass it is so luscious.” When Plaintiff slapped his hand away, Mr. Davis aggressively told Plaintiff to never push his hand away again.”

And from Warren Sapp, who was fired from the network after soliciting a prostitute at the Super Bowl in 2015:

...came into the restroom while Plaintiff was preparing clothes, and urinated in front of her. Plaintiff screamed at him to get out, but Mr. Sapp laughed and told Plaintiff, “Sorry mama, but your office shouldn’t be our shitter.” Plaintiff complained to the NFL, but nothing was done until Plaintiff told the NFL she would work in the hallway. Mr. Sapp also gave Plaintiff sex toys as a Christmas gifts three years in a row, showed Plaintiff nude pictures of numerous women he claimed to have slept with, and openly talked about his sex life in front of Plaintiff and other NFL employees, including supervisors.

Some of the specific texts she received from McNabb are also included:

including but not limited to, asking Plaintiff if she was a “squirter,” telling Plaintiff she “looked like the kind of girl that squirted when getting fucked,” “CUM to dinner with me,” and “why don’t you CUM over after work.”

[thesloppy]

Anything that gets Heath Evans off my TV is God's work.

[Kodos]

What assholes.

[cuervo72]

Locker room talk?

(this might make Trump think a little more of NFL players!)

[Ben E Lou]

Music Mogul Russell Simmons Is Accused of Rape by 3 Women - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/arts/music/russell-simmons-rape.html)

[JPhillips]

Of all of them, Simmons may be the worst. He's a really dangerous guy.

[PilotMan]

I really hope more and more come forward. Shit has been going on far too long.

[DanGarion]

Miguel Sano Betsy on Twitter: "This is not easy for me to share, but I feel I need to share it. This is my story. #metoo https://t.co/PM6g6YuABf" (https://twitter.com/BitzyBetsy/status/946407707606740992) is now on the clock.

[Ben E Lou]

Miguel Sano Betsy on Twitter: "This is not easy for me to share, but I feel I need to share it. This is my story. #metoo https://t.co/PM6g6YuABf" (https://twitter.com/BitzyBetsy/status/946407707606740992) is now on the clock.Looks like she has protected her tweets now.

[Toddzilla]

i can't imagine all the abuse she's getting from the mouth breathers

[Suicane75]

What does the police report say?

[CrimsonFox]

What does the police report say?

Same thing the fox says

[CrimsonFox]

You're a hapless rube.

I <3 this insult as much as 'feckless cur'

[GrantDawg]

I'm going to post a wall text here with random thoughts on the situation. I expect that no one will actually read it, but I hope some do and pick it apart or add their own thoughts. Mostly, I want to see if I am way off base, or if anyone can see what I am thinking here.

I think in most ways this "purge" is a very good thing. It has been needed, and long over-due. This systematic abuse of woman has always existed in the work place, and has survived especially strong in the entertainment industry. The fact is, this will probably never completely go way. Some men (and in some cases women) will probably always use their positions of power or prestige to create a hunting field to prey on people below them for their sexual appetites. Men of power especially often have a high sense of entitlement. Adding control over someones career in the mix, then you have the recipe for abuse. With the revelations and the consequence of such, it might make some of those men pause. It will also make it much harder for such men to get away with as they have in the past.

Some of these revelations have been big shocks (Garrison Keillor, really?). Some just shouldn't have been. I was surprised by Matt Lauer initially. Mostly how rapid it came down. Yet, once I thought about it, it really wasn't shocking. The rumors of his affairs had been pretty much out there for years. To the point just a few years ago his wife filed for divorce, and it was the very open secret (or in other words, not a secret) that his sleeping with co-workers was the cause. He had ran off a co-worker that he had been in an affair with, and he had stalled the career of a few others that had not been receptive to him. All was public rumored at the time, but NBC had protected him from being officially outed numerous times.

Of course, Weinstien was the same, if not worse. Not only rumors, but open "jokes" about his abuse of power has been common for years. Allegations had been even public record in the past, but his power and influence had kept any from becoming dangerous to his position. The same can be said to a lesser extent of Louis CK. When the dominoes started falling after Weinstien, it was actually my first thought "how long till Louis CK gets caught up in this?" His masturbating in front of female comedians again had been openly known. This movement allowed that to be exposed more than just a few jokes. The consequences should help to stop these thing from, if not ever occurring, then to not become serial or systematic as often.

My fear, though, is the consequences of all this can be quite dangerous. So far, most of these allegations have had a good bit of supporting evidence. Multiple accusers describing the same things occurring at different times with friends and colleagues confirming being told about them at the time it occurred. That makes for about as strong of evidence for this type of crime as you generally get (short of video or audio evidence). The nature of the misdeeds being "he said/she said" type actions also makes this current "witch-hunt" feel to these last couple of months troubling.

The "Me, Too" movement has been a driving force to expose much of the downfall of these systematic abusers. It has been a very good motivator to get these women (and men) to openly reveal what has happened to them in the past, and stop the cycle of abuse. What worries me, though, is the idea behind this movement is that we should never question the statement of the alleged abuser. Since this has all been trialed in the court of public opinion, the lack of ability to even question the accuser is very dangerous. I understand the motivation behind it. It is easier for a woman to come forward if there is no fear of being shouted down as a liar or "slut-shamed" for somehow "asking for it". I don't think I am calling for that to occur, and a suppression of that kind of destroying a witness is a very good thing. When the evidence is "he said/she said" the inability to even question the statement of the accuser means an "guilty till proven innocent" situation, and basically one allegation totally destroying a persons career.

Another open secret that exists, especially in entertainment, is the "casting couch". Sometimes it is the casting director or agent offering the quid-pro-qou of "sleep with me, and I'll get you this role". Other times, though, it is the other way around. People do often offer sex to get ahead. I remember one time when I was young and working in a pizza restaurant. My friend was a general manager, and the store had a opening at manager. One girl wanted that job so bad, that she pulled my friend in the office, removed her coat with nothing underneath and said "I want to be manager". If someone would do that for a crappy job at a pizza restaurant, imagine what people would do to fulfill their life's dream of becoming a star. Now how easy would it be to turn that around and say "I was abused" if they want vengeance on the person that rejected them, or even did have sex with them but didn't fulfill their ambition?

I don't have the answer to all this. I don't know if their is one. What say you? I'm sure most of you are smarter than me. What is your answer?

[miami_fan]

I'm going to post a wall text here with random thoughts on the situation. I expect that no one will actually read it, but I hope some do and pick it apart or add their own thoughts. Mostly, I want to see if I am way off base, or if anyone can see what I am thinking here.

I think in most ways this "purge" is a very good thing. It has been needed, and long over-due. This systematic abuse of woman has always existed in the work place, and has survived especially strong in the entertainment industry. The fact is, this will probably never completely go way. Some men (and in some cases women) will probably always use their positions of power or prestige to create a hunting field to prey on people below them for their sexual appetites. Men of power especially often have a high sense of entitlement. Adding control over someones career in the mix, then you have the recipe for abuse. With the revelations and the consequence of such, it might make some of those men pause. It will also make it much harder for such men to get away with as they have in the past.

Some of these revelations have been big shocks (Garrison Keillor, really?). Some just shouldn't have been. I was surprised by Matt Lauer initially. Mostly how rapid it came down. Yet, once I thought about it, it really wasn't shocking. The rumors of his affairs had been pretty much out there for years. To the point just a few years ago his wife filed for divorce, and it was the very open secret (or in other words, not a secret) that his sleeping with co-workers was the cause. He had ran off a co-worker that he had been in an affair with, and he had stalled the career of a few others that had not been receptive to him. All was public rumored at the time, but NBC had protected him from being officially outed numerous times.

Of course, Weinstien was the same, if not worse. Not only rumors, but open "jokes" about his abuse of power has been common for years. Allegations had been even public record in the past, but his power and influence had kept any from becoming dangerous to his position. The same can be said to a lesser extent of Louis CK. When the dominoes started falling after Weinstien, it was actually my first thought "how long till Louis CK gets caught up in this?" His masturbating in front of female comedians again had been openly known. This movement allowed that to be exposed more than just a few jokes. The consequences should help to stop these thing from, if not ever occurring, then to not become serial or systematic as often.

My fear, though, is the consequences of all this can be quite dangerous. So far, most of these allegations have had a good bit of supporting evidence. Multiple accusers describing the same things occurring at different times with friends and colleagues confirming being told about them at the time it occurred. That makes for about as strong of evidence for this type of crime as you generally get (short of video or audio evidence). The nature of the misdeeds being "he said/she said" type actions also makes this current "witch-hunt" feel to these last couple of months troubling.

The "Me, Too" movement has been a driving force to expose much of the downfall of these systematic abusers. It has been a very good motivator to get these women (and men) to openly reveal what has happened to them in the past, and stop the cycle of abuse. What worries me, though, is the idea behind this movement is that we should never question the statement of the alleged abuser. Since this has all been trialed in the court of public opinion, the lack of ability to even question the accuser is very dangerous. I understand the motivation behind it. It is easier for a woman to come forward if there is no fear of being shouted down as a liar or "slut-shamed" for somehow "asking for it". I don't think I am calling for that to occur, and a suppression of that kind of destroying a witness is a very good thing. When the evidence is "he said/she said" the inability to even question the statement of the accuser means an "guilty till proven innocent" situation, and basically one allegation totally destroying a persons career.

Another open secret that exists, especially in entertainment, is the "casting couch". Sometimes it is the casting director or agent offering the quid-pro-qou of "sleep with me, and I'll get you this role". Other times, though, it is the other way around. People do often offer sex to get ahead. I remember one time when I was young and working in a pizza restaurant. My friend was a general manager, and the store had a opening at manager. One girl wanted that job so bad, that she pulled my friend in the office, removed her coat with nothing underneath and said "I want to be manager". If someone would do that for a crappy job at a pizza restaurant, imagine what people would do to fulfill their life's dream of becoming a star. Now how easy would it be to turn that around and say "I was abused" if they want vengeance on the person that rejected them, or even did have sex with them but didn't fulfill their ambition?

I don't have the answer to all this. I don't know if their is one. What say you? I'm sure most of you are smarter than me. What is your answer?

I can’t speak for the #MeToo movement but in talking to female family and friends the problem is that we rarely ever question the accused or the accused’s statement. It is the presumption innocence that IS given to the accused while implicitly (or explicitly) casting guilty eyes towards the accuser. Until very recently, the way the “he said/ she said” scenario has worked is she accuses, we question her statement and her life choices, he says he did not do what he has been accused of, we all move on. If the accuser is unlucky, we accuse them of having evil intentions, post coital regrets etc. It’s only when it becomes he said/ she said/ and another she said/ and another she said… that we even consider questioning the accused. I don’t want a world where one allegation equals a destruction of a person’s career.

What I would like to see is one allegation lead to an investigation and consequences be brought down as required be it on the guilty accused or the false accuser. One question I have asked myself throughout all of this. Is it possible to stop the next Harvey Weinstein at one victim or do we need 10, 20, 50, victims before that person is stopped?

Side question: Have we had a man come out and accuse a powerful woman of sexual misconduct/ sexual assault yet? I am pretty sure the answer is no, but I may have missed one.

[Scoobz0202]

Mariah Carey, I think?

[GrantDawg]

What I would like to see is one allegation lead to an investigation and consequences be brought down as required be it on the guilty accused or the false accuser. One question I have asked myself throughout all of this. Is it possible to stop the next Harvey Weinstein at one victim or do we need 10, 20, 50, victims before that person is stopped?

It is a good question, and not easily answered. I agree that in the past, many times the accused got away with things and often the accuser was totally destroyed. No question, making it easier for victims to come forward without the fear of being attacked is better, and should be the goal. We are still not anywhere near that. These accusers are being celebrated for the strength of coming forward, and that has encouraged others that have been silent to speak out. All very good.

They are still being attacked from some circles, though. I don't think in the end that this problem is going to be solved by taking it to the court of public opinion. Backlash is going to occur. Legitimate victims are going to be attacked and have their private lives exposed. Innocent people are going to be falsely accused and be destroyed.

Having more of this investigated behind close doors would be better, but still not totally safe. It would be better to have professionals investigate before allegations become public record, but then that has basically already been the case in many of these reports. People filed complaints, but where bought off before it became public. Some claims where investigated and went nowhere. Powerful people have powerful lawyers that can destroy the accusers claims.

I'm still not suggesting the answer, more pointing out worries. I'm pretty sure there will never be a perfect answer. Just hopefully some kind of balance.

[tarcone]

I agree with the keeping it private sentiment. I look at those Duke kids who got killed in the media when the accusations turned out to be false. A lot of guilty until proven innocent there.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where people want their 15 minutes. And both sides are getting crushed.

I dont think there is an answer. in the case of a he said/she said, it is tough sledding. The accuser has the fear of not being believed and figuratively killed in their life, while the accused has the same thing.

I guess you should keep yourself out of situations where bad things can happen. I use the example of my 16 year old daughter getting invited to a party tonight. It is a HS party where no one can leave. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. She doesnt drink, but we all know how drunk HS boys can act. She isnt allowed to go. And, honestly, I dont think she wants to. There was no fight about, she made alternative plans to hang out with a friend whose parents wont let her go either.

[miami_fan]

It is a good question, and not easily answered. I agree that in the past, many times the accused got away with things and often the accuser was totally destroyed. No question, making it easier for victims to come forward without the fear of being attacked is better, and should be the goal. We are still not anywhere near that. These accusers are being celebrated for the strength of coming forward, and that has encouraged others that have been silent to speak out. All very good.

They are still being attacked from some circles, though. I don't think in the end that this problem is going to be solved by taking it to the court of public opinion. Backlash is going to occur. Legitimate victims are going to be attacked and have their private lives exposed. Innocent people are going to be falsely accused and be destroyed.

Having more of this investigated behind close doors would be better, but still not totally safe. It would be better to have professionals investigate before allegations become public record, but then that has basically already been the case in many of these reports. People filed complaints, but where bought off before it became public. Some claims where investigated and went nowhere. Powerful people have powerful lawyers that can destroy the accusers claims.

I'm still not suggesting the answer, more pointing out worries. I'm pretty sure there will never be a perfect answer. Just hopefully some kind of balance.

I am not accusing you of this, but so much of the debate has seemed to immediately run to protecting those that MIGHT be falsely accused in the future while ignoring the legitimate victims of the present and those that will be legitimately victimized in the future. I don't feel like we care that much about the falsely accused in other areas of misconduct and other crimes in our society. Now we should care more about the falsely accused in all areas but we don't. That difference does lead me to ask why.

To be clear. No one should have to go through the horror of being falsely accused of any misconduct or crime especially of this nature given the stigma attached. I am sure we all would love to put things in place where such a thing does not happen. If it does happen, I would want the person who is making the false accusation to get the harshest punishment possible. I would like to think we also want to put things in place where the victims of misconduct and assault can go to the authorities and actually have their claims be taken seriously while not being attacked and having the stigma attached. Until those things happen, I am not sure what victims are supposed to do outside of going to the public to get some "justice". Again, I admittedly go to the extreme of the Weinstein case. It was an "open secret" for two decades. The victims were only taken seriously when it was brought out in the public and people began to hear the same story over and over. The court of public opinion is the only place where Weinstein has been held to account. At this point that IS the only non-violent way these things are taken seriously.

I agree with your call for balance. Unfortunately we are aiming for balance on the scales of injustice. If we have to accept that "Legitimate victims are going to be attacked and have their private lives exposed." and "Powerful people have powerful lawyers that can destroy the accusers claims." even in cases when there is legitimate misconduct, assault and abuse, the only thing we have to balance that on the scale of injustice is accepting that "Innocent people are going to be falsely accused and be destroyed." I don't know if we can begin combat the latter without dealing with the former two. I do think that when we do, we will be much closer to a balance of justice we are supposedly looking for.

[GrantDawg]

I am not accusing you of this, but so much of the debate has seemed to immediately run to protecting those that MIGHT be falsely accused in the future while ignoring the legitimate victims of the present and those that will be legitimately victimized in the future. I don't feel like we care that much about the falsely accused in other areas of misconduct and other crimes in our society. Now we should care more about the falsely accused in all areas but we don't. That difference does lead me to ask why.



I appreciate that you are not accusing me of this, because it is far from my motivation. Actually, I just wanted a discussion. I wanted to broach a subject that recently seems to be carefully avoided, because it can easily sound like you are defending the accused and attacking the accuser. I hope that what I wrote made it clear that I am in no way trying to silence victims. I am just openly wondering if there is a way that we can protect both sides from have their life destroyed unfairly.

As for "we don't care about the falsely accused in other crimes," you are talking to the wrong person about that. I do care. It is just that these kind of crimes tend to get way more attention (sex sells copy). People can be accused in other crimes and survive with their lives mostly intact if found innocent. But any high-press coverage type crimes makes that much harder. On top of that, what we have going right now is "trial by mob." Keep in mind, no one has been convicted of anything in this yet by an actual court.

[GrantDawg]

I agree with the keeping it private sentiment. I look at those Duke kids who got killed in the media when the accusations turned out to be false. A lot of guilty until proven innocent there.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where people want their 15 minutes. And both sides are getting crushed.

I dont think there is an answer. in the case of a he said/she said, it is tough sledding. The accuser has the fear of not being believed and figuratively killed in their life, while the accused has the same thing.

I guess you should keep yourself out of situations where bad things can happen. I use the example of my 16 year old daughter getting invited to a party tonight. It is a HS party where no one can leave. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. She doesnt drink, but we all know how drunk HS boys can act. She isnt allowed to go. And, honestly, I dont think she wants to. There was no fight about, she made alternative plans to hang out with a friend whose parents wont let her go either.

Yeah, the Duke thing is a prime example of what I am talking about. On the flip side, the Penn State scandal is the prime example of the other side. In one the boys were convicted by the mob. The other, the system totally failed to protect, and the fear of the humiliation kept the abused silent for decades. I think what is happening now is a good thing. We need to encourage victims of abuse to come forward and protect them. Let's face it, there are way more legit acts of abuse that are never reported or silenced if they are reported, than false accusations. Maybe the answer is we do need this time of "trial by mob" to swing the balance of more attackers being shamed and convicted.

As to your last comment, yes it seems reasonable to suggest that people should protect themselves. You have to be careful in this current even making that suggestion, or you will be accused of "blaming the victim." Honestly, in most cases it was not that the victim put themselves in a dangerous position. A seemingly innocent situation can turn into something horribly wrong. Other times, you can hear these stories and think "what did he/she think was going to happen?" Even then, though, it is not the victims fault. Maybe it was bad judgement to go back to the hotel room with this person, but that does not give a green flag for assault.

Again, I'm not giving answers because I have none.

[miami_fan]

I appreciate that you are not accusing me of this, because it is far from my motivation. Actually, I just wanted a discussion. I wanted to broach a subject that recently seems to be carefully avoided, because it can easily sound like you are defending the accused and attacking the accuser. I hope that what I wrote made it clear that I am in no way trying to silence victims. I am just openly wondering if there is a way that we can protect both sides from have their life destroyed unfairly.

As for "we don't care about the falsely accused in other crimes," you are talking to the wrong person about that. I do care. It is just that these kind of crimes tend to get way more attention (sex sells copy). People can be accused in other crimes and survive with their lives mostly intact if found innocent. But any high-press coverage type crimes makes that much harder. On top of that, what we have going right now is "trial by mob." Keep in mind, no one has been convicted of anything in this yet by an actual court.

My use of "we" is done in a royal sense as opposed to anything personal. I appreciate the discussion as I think that there are several different ones to be had within this realm.

Maybe it would be better to define what the sides should be and what they are IMO. I think that people who suffer misconduct/assault and those who are false accused of perpetuating misconduct/assault are both victims. To me, those two groups should be aligned on one side (Side A) against those who actually abuse and those who falsely accuse (Side B). If the members of Side A are pitted against one another, it sets up more of what we have now. Legitimate victims of misconduct/assault loosely aligning with those that falsely accuse on one side. Legitimate victims of false accusations loosely aligning with the perpetrators of abuse on the other. Not to dump any more volatility into this but it reminds me of people joining prison gangs based on race in order to feel protected despite having no issues whatsoever with the other races. That was part of the reason for my question about women abusing men. The current setup makes this it a men vs women issue. My setup does not. Here is the problem. There is much more risk for the individual groups in Side A to align compared to the groups in Side B. Who takes the first step? I have no answers.

Regarding the "caring", first again Royal "we" is at play here. Second, I present to you...history. Moving forward "we" may do better. However, I feel like history has provided enough evidence that society has done a better job protecting the accused (including those that are falsely accused) than protecting the accuser (including those that false accuse) when it comes to sexual misconduct and sexual crimes. That is not to discount the very real effects of false accusations on the falsely accused.

One question about about the "protect yourself" discussion. What are the other options besides avoidance does a potential victim get to use to protect themselves. Why don't we suggest all potential victims avoid all potential situations where they can be violated? This is what I mean by being more concerned with the accused than we are with the accuser. The push in our country is that potential victims should not HAVE to avoid their potential attackers. They have a right to be protect themselves not just from an attack. They have the right to protect themselves from a potential attack. The push has been for the laws to protect the potential victims' right to self defense. Why is society still telling victims and potential victims in this area to avoid a potential attacker at all costs?

[tarcone]

I dont think avoidance is the best thing to do. You cant stay at home and live a very happy, healthy life, BUT dont go to a meeting by yourself with a sketchy character. Why cant you bring a friend? Avoid getting hammered at a party. I tell my girls never leave your drink unattended and if you do, get a new one. Things of this nature are for self preservation and are not avoiding.

Avoidance isnt necessarily what I am saying. But being proactive in your everyday life is important.

There are some scary, crazy people out there. Getting caught alone when your defenseless is not the smartest thing to do.

But if you do get caught in this situation, I am very much in favor of helping the victim. But there needs to be a private investigation to make sure the falsely accused are not ruined. And the false accusers are not glorified.

[GrantDawg]

Regarding the "caring", first again Royal "we" is at play here. Second, I present to you...history. Moving forward "we" may do better. However, I feel like history has provided enough evidence that society has done a better job protecting the accused (including those that are falsely accused) than protecting the accuser (including those that false accuse) when it comes to sexual misconduct and sexual crimes. That is not to discount the very real effects of false accusations on the falsely accused.

No doubt. Really it may be that it is time that we just admit there always will be an injustice one or another. In the end it may be better that we protect the much larger group (victims of assault) versus the much smaller subset (the falsely accused). In the end, yes they are both victims. The falsely accused have to be a fraction of the number of actual victims. In the ideal, we would protect both, but there never will be an ideal. Protecting the accused may save the falsely accused, but at the price of a large number of victims.

And as aside, I have been trying to be somewhat PC in the way I way I have been referring to this, but the fact is this is a men vs. women issue. The number of women guilty of this is probably such a small number that it could literally be a rounding error. Men victimize women by huge factor more than women to men. Heck, men victimize men probably by a higher rate than women victimize men. Of course, power has a large influence on this, and women are gaining more power to allow an increase of women predators, but is doubtful that their numbers will ever be anywhere close to the number of male predators.

One question about about the "protect yourself" discussion. What are the other options besides avoidance does a potential victim get to use to protect themselves. Why don't we suggest all potential victims avoid all potential situations where they can be violated? This is what I mean by being more concerned with the accused than we are with the accuser. The push in our country is that potential victims should not HAVE to avoid their potential attackers. They have a right to be protect themselves not just from an attack. They have the right to protect themselves from a potential attack. The push has been for the laws to protect the potential victims' right to self defense. Why is society still telling victims and potential victims in this area to avoid a potential attacker at all costs?

Extremes are the problem here. No one is going to protect themselves from all potential situations. The idea, though, that we will ever get to a situation that people (and here women, but really this could be said of a lot of potential crimes) will not need to protect themselves from possible crimes is pretty pie-in-the-sky. There are riskier actions than others. I travel for work into a huge number of high crime areas. It would be silly for me not to try to be aware of my surroundings. Should I have to? No. Should I? Hell yes. If I am a victim of a crime, I could look back and say "I should have...". That still doesn't make me at fault some how. The criminal is always the guilty party, even if I leave my car unlocked, or go into a sketchy alley. Some kind of common sense is needed.

[miami_fan]

I dont think avoidance is the best thing to do. You cant stay at home and live a very happy, healthy life, BUT dont go to a meeting by yourself with a sketchy character. Why cant you bring a friend? Avoid getting hammered at a party. I tell my girls never leave your drink unattended and if you do, get a new one. Things of this nature are for self preservation and are not avoiding.

Avoidance isnt necessarily what I am saying. But being proactive in your everyday life is important.

There are some scary, crazy people out there. Getting caught alone when your defenseless is not the smartest thing to do.

But if you do get caught in this situation, I am very much in favor of helping the victim. But there needs to be a private investigation to make sure the falsely accused are not ruined. And the false accusers are not glorified.

I was talking more in keeping with the spirit of the thread. For example, you have to meet a sketchy character like Harvey Weinstein for employment.

[miami_fan]

No doubt. Really it may be that it is time that we just admit there always will be an injustice one or another. In the end it may be better that we protect the much larger group (victims of assault) versus the much smaller subset (the falsely accused). In the end, yes they are both victims. The falsely accused have to be a fraction of the number of actual victims. In the ideal, we would protect both, but there never will be an ideal. Protecting the accused may save the falsely accused, but at the price of a large number of victims.

I would like to think that protecting the victims would weed out the false accusers but I don't know that to be true.


And as aside, I have been trying to be somewhat PC in the way I way I have been referring to this, but the fact is this is a men vs. women issue. The number of women guilty of this is probably such a small number that it could literally be a rounding error. Men victimize women by huge factor more than women to men. Heck, men victimize men probably by a higher rate than women victimize men. Of course, power has a large influence on this, and women are gaining more power to allow an increase of women predators, but is doubtful that their numbers will ever be anywhere close to the number of male predators.

Define the issue. If the issue is sexual misconduct and sexual crimes, I don't think that is as simple as men vs women. I feel pretty comfortable saying that most men who are falsely accused are not for those things.


Extremes are the problem here. No one is going to protect themselves from all potential situations. The idea, though, that we will ever get to a situation that people (and here women, but really this could be said of a lot of potential crimes) will not need to protect themselves from possible crimes is pretty pie-in-the-sky. There are riskier actions than others. I travel for work into a huge number of high crime areas. It would be silly for me not to try to be aware of my surroundings. Should I have to? No. Should I? Hell yes. If I am a victim of a crime, I could look back and say "I should have...". That still doesn't make me at fault some how. The criminal is always the guilty party, even if I leave my car unlocked, or go into a sketchy alley. Some kind of common sense is needed.

As I mentioned before I am talking about more about workplace situations as opposed to out on the streets. So I pose the same rhetorical response that I posed to tarcone. You are meeting with Harvey Weinstein for your employment in his office. He does what he does. What is the proactive measure for that? What about the proactive measures for the button under Matt Lauer's desk I don't know have an answer for that.

[GrantDawg]

I would like to think that protecting the victims would weed out the false accusers but I don't know that to be true.

Yeah, don't see how.


Define the issue. If the issue is sexual misconduct and sexual crimes, I don't think that is as simple as men vs women. I feel pretty comfortable saying that most men who are falsely accused are not for those things.
Who said anything about anybody being "for" sexual misconduct? I'm saying what we are mainly talking about is assaults on women from men.



As I mentioned before I am talking about more about workplace situations as opposed to out on the streets. So I pose the same rhetorical response that I posed to tarcone. You are meeting with Harvey Weinstein for your employment in his office. He does what he does. What is the proactive measure for that? What about the proactive measures for the button under Matt Lauer's desk I don't know have an answer for that.
I was using an analogy. The two situations you describe would be situations that I would agree be almost impossible to defend yourself from. But going alone to Weinstien's hotel room is something you can "not do" (and where most of his conduct occurred). Lauer's desk would be something difficult to forsee, but going to his hotel at the Olympics drunk is again something you could prevent. I'm not sure where you going with this, because I believe I clearly stated you cannot possible defend yourself from every situation, but there are some situations that you can.

[miami_fan]

Given the power dynamic I don't know if there is a difference between his office and his hotel room.

[CrimsonFox]

Holy crap! Missed this one. :(

Danny Masterson from That 70s Show.

Accused of rape and kicked off The Ranch by Netflix

Netflix Ousts Actor Danny Masterson Amid Rape Allegations | HuffPost (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/danny-masterson-netflix-ousted_us_5a2698a0e4b086e4e50461b1)

[GrantDawg]

French celebrities to men's rescue: Catherine Deneuve, French Artists Defend Men’s Right To Hit On Women | Deadline (http://deadline.com/2018/01/catherine-deneuve-defends-men-sexual-harassment-1202239110/)

[NobodyHere]

Five women accuse actor James Franco of inappropriate or sexually exploitative behavior (https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/five-women-accuse-actor-james-franco-of-inappropriate-or-sexually-exploitative-behavior/ar-BBIgLFs?li=BBnb2gh)

James Franco has responded by saying, "I did not hit her, it's not true! It's bullshit! I did not hit her! I did not!"

[Suicane75]

Five women accuse actor James Franco of inappropriate or sexually exploitative behavior (https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/five-women-accuse-actor-james-franco-of-inappropriate-or-sexually-exploitative-behavior/ar-BBIgLFs?li=BBnb2gh)

James Franco has responded by saying, "I did not hit her, it's not true! It's bullshit! I did not hit her! I did not!"

These women are tearing him apart?

[Izulde]

Five women accuse actor James Franco of inappropriate or sexually exploitative behavior (https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/five-women-accuse-actor-james-franco-of-inappropriate-or-sexually-exploitative-behavior/ar-BBIgLFs?li=BBnb2gh)

James Franco has responded by saying, "I did not hit her, it's not true! It's bullshit! I did not hit her! I did not!"

Not surprised at all by this. Always thought dude was a smug douchebag, and his face is more punchable than Ted Cruz's.

[NobodyHere]

Not surprised at all by this. Always thought dude was a smug douchebag, and his face is more punchable than Ted Cruz's.

https://m.popkey.co/828740/ZWyer.gif

[Julio Riddols]

French celebrities to men's rescue: Catherine Deneuve, French Artists Defend Men’s Right To Hit On Women | Deadline (http://deadline.com/2018/01/catherine-deneuve-defends-men-sexual-harassment-1202239110/)

I love the sensibility of the statements made in that article. Really shines a light on the differences in how sex and sexuality are viewed between the French and Americans, and makes a man wish we could adopt that way of thinking here. Without discounting the validity of rape and predatory behavior, the aggressiveness and hate filled mindset of the more extreme proponents of "feminism" is made apparent.

In a country as extreme as America is getting, a reasonable and well made point is refreshing I guess.

[RainMaker]

I'm all for calling out predators but the piece on Aziz Ansari is not even close to sexual assault. That's just ridiculous.

[ISiddiqui]

Indeed. Not even that but it's gift to people who were waiting to sink the #MeToo movement - because it's so ridiculous an example.

[thesloppy]

I'm not exactly crying over the Ansari story, because it sounds like he was at best a remarkably shitty date (what's with sticking his fingers down her throat multiple times?), he wasn't accused of assault, since every little detail was revealed we can all make our own judgments, and he hasn't actually lost any work at this point.

Likewise I can empathize with the complaint that this woman was not very pro-active about expressing her thoughts & feelings, and he shouldn't have to be a mind reader, but he wouldn't have to be a mind reader if he'd simply verbalized his own intentions at any point. We've probably all been on some version of an awkward date like this, where one party is more interested than the other, but not confident enough to put it into words, and it turns into some ridiculous non-verbal ballet of confused overtures....but I also never crossed a few of those lines that Ansari did (undressing immediately, sticking fingers down the throat, pointing at my penis and expecting a blow job)

He seems genuinely contrite and confused, and it may change (for the positive) how he treats dates/women in the future. I'm not sure there's a chance of that happening (or at least not as much of a chance) if this laundry isn't aired in public, and if the worst he takes is a public drubbing for an entirely accurate account of his own shitty behavior, than I'm totally OK with that.

....and yet with all that said, I sure wouldn't want this example to become the new standard for reporting or judging sexual misconduct, and I don't think Aziz should suffer anything more than facing his own shitty behavior.

[nol]

I'm all for calling out predators but the piece on Aziz Ansari is not even close to sexual assault. That's just ridiculous.

I don't think anyone's saying it's sexual assault or to charge him of anything. It is creepy behavior that is more newsworthy for coming from someone whose schtick is very much "woke male feminist" (he literally wrote a book about how to date in the 21st century) in the same way it would be more newsworthy to see a married, anti-gay politician using Grindr.

[muns]

....and yet with all that said, I sure wouldn't want this example to become the new standard for reporting or judging sexual misconduct, and I don't think Aziz should suffer anything more than facing his own shitty behavior.

But for young people (just coming out of college) it sure is. They have been taught different rules because Obama and Biden made sexual assault a political animal.

Now you have this then 22 year old (I'm making an assumption she went to NYU as her and Aziz talked about NYU on their date), being taught by NYU what sexual assault is in college, but that's not what sexual assault is out in the real world.

So she has in her mind what she has been taught, and knows if this occurred on NYU's campus Aziz would go down for assault.

I'm making another assumption she came out thinking it would help and she could contribute to the movement (or she just wants her little piece of fame) but the reality is it doesn't. In the real world you have to be able to speak up for yourself in those situations, and the guy doesn't have to do it for you.

In college, the guy has to do it for you, otherwise, the game is over.

The rules are different and my guess is you are going to start to see more of this crap happening now that these college students are joining the real world.

[ISiddiqui]

pointing at my penis and expecting a blow job

OTOH, that move did work...

;)

[molson]

Assuming everything in the article is true (and who the hell knows), Aziz falls comfortably somewhere between considerate human behavior and Harvey Weinstein.

Stories like and the reaction to them really make you wonder if this is the norm. I've probably underestimated exactly how much shit women put up with they're dating.

As a man, if your general primary goal is to get laid, you're aggressive as possible in obtaining that, and nothing is going to stop your attempts except a firm verbal denial, you will probably stay on the right side of the law. But you're not a good person and you certainly don't respect women.

I wonder, how much is this the norm, and how much is a symptom of celebrity. Harvey Weinstein even said on the audio recording where he was trying to rape that model - he's used to getting what he wants. I wonder if a celebrity like Ansari, (or just other good looking young guys who get laid a lot), are just so used to getting what they want sexually that they really don't pick up on cues, or, they have just a line in their head and until they hear that from the woman, it's full speed ahead.

The Ansari thing sounds like a step beyond mere not recognizing cues though. Putting your fingers down a woman's throat and then immediately groping her sounds like a deliberate technique - surprise a woman with something strange and physical jarring, and then immediately grope her, and there's a few seconds before she really grasps what you're doing, so she's less likely to resist. Also, pulling a woman's hand towards your dick after she pulls it away several times? Escalating the sexual contact after she verbalizes that she wants to take things more slowly? He's a creep.

But the defenses of the behavior I'm reading make wonder, maybe this is the norm. Maybe this is truly what is expected from men and this is morally OK at this point in time, in this country, in 2017. If so, I wonder if we've kind of regressed over the last 20 years. I remember my college orientation stuff 20 years ago. The lesson wasn't "no means no," because, no shit, everyone knows that. The lesson was more about respecting other people, and erring on the side of sexual constraint until the consent is actually clear. In my own mind, I was so terrified of hearing that firm "no", because that meant I already went too far. And something's been really lost in the courtship process if this really is the norm now. It is possible to hit on a woman, to her her know your feelings and intentions, without groping them, sticking your fingers down their throat, or pulling their hand towards your dick.

If things are going well in the conversation portion of the evening, a little non-sexual physical contact can go a long way to letting you know what the other person is really up for. When you just immediately go to groping and sexual touching, it's true, some less-than-confident women are going to be overwhelmed and aren't going to verbally or physically resist. But if that's the goal, and all you care about is not committing rape, I guess you're good to go and I guess that's why lack of confidence actually becomes a desirable trait in a woman.

[Arles]

Assuming everything in the article is true (and who the hell knows), Aziz falls comfortably somewhere between considerate human behavior and Harvey Weinstein.

Stories like and the reaction to them really make you wonder if this is the norm. I've probably underestimated exactly how much shit women put up with they're dating.

As a man, if your general primary goal is to get laid, you're aggressive as possible in obtaining that, and nothing is going to stop your attempts except a firm verbal denial, you will probably stay on the right side of the law. But you're not a good person and you certainly don't respect women.

I wonder, how much is this the norm, and how much is a symptom of celebrity. Harvey Weinstein even said on the audio recording where he was trying to rape that model - he's used to getting what he wants. I wonder if a celebrity like Ansari, (or just other good looking young guys who get laid a lot), are just so used to getting what they want sexually that they really don't pick up on cues, or, they have just a line in their head and until they hear that from the woman, it's full speed ahead.

The Ansari thing sounds like a step beyond mere not recognizing cues though. Putting your fingers down a woman's throat and then immediately groping her sounds like a deliberate technique - surprise a woman with something strange and physical jarring, and then immediately grope her, and there's a few seconds before she really grasps what you're doing, so she's less likely to resist. Also, pulling a woman's hand towards your dick after she pulls it away several times? Escalating the sexual contact after she verbalizes that she wants to take things more slowly? He's a creep.

But the defenses of the behavior I'm reading make wonder, maybe this is the norm. Maybe this is truly what is expected from men and this is morally OK at this point in time, in this country, in 2017. If so, I wonder if we've kind of regressed over the last 20 years. I remember my college orientation stuff 20 years ago. The lesson wasn't "no means no," because, no shit, everyone knows that. The lesson was more about respecting other people, and erring on the side of sexual constraint until the consent is actually clear. In my own mind, I was so terrified of hearing that firm "no", because that meant I already went too far. And something's been really lost in the courtship process if this really is the norm now. It is possible to hit a woman, to her her know your feelings and intentions, without groping them, sticking your fingers down their throat, or pulling their hand towards your dick.

If things are going well in the conversation portion of the evening, a little non-sexual physical contact can go a long way to letting you know what the other person is really up for. When you just immediately go to groping and sexual touching, it's true, some less-than-confident women are going to be overwhelmed and aren't going to verbally or physically resist. But if that's the goal, and all you care about is not committing rape, I guess you're good to go and I guess that's why lack of confidence actually becomes a desirable trait in a woman.
Well put. I've always wondered how much the current online culture has desensitized people to "normal" human conduct in the presence of others. I feel like face to face social skills will be on the decline with the next generation as people are more comfortable with texting, snapchat and facebook. I don't think it will be surprising if many girls end up being very uncomfortable when face-to-face with guys on dates, as well as many guys will lack the social skills to discern how the girl is feeling. I'm not sure what the answer is, but lack of consistent face-to-face interaction as people grow up certainly doesn't help this situation.

[RainMaker]

I don't think anyone's saying it's sexual assault or to charge him of anything. It is creepy behavior that is more newsworthy for coming from someone whose schtick is very much "woke male feminist" (he literally wrote a book about how to date in the 21st century) in the same way it would be more newsworthy to see a married, anti-gay politician using Grindr.

The woman literally calls it sexual assault.

[miami_fan]

Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape.

https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault

[nol]

The woman literally calls it sexual assault.


I guess I should have specified in an actual court of law rather than the court of public opinion. As someone else mentioned, nobody's trying to say what he did is as egregious as what Weinstein did. The vast majority of the piece is just her explaining what happened and the only mention of sexual assault is:

Grace says her friends helped her grapple with the aftermath of her night with Ansari. “It took a really long time for me to validate this as sexual assault,” she told us. “I was debating if this was an awkward sexual experience or sexual assault. And that’s why I confronted so many of my friends and listened to what they had to say, because I wanted validation that it was actually bad.”

which indicates that it was very borderline to her and not something that should result in Ansari being kicked out of Hollywood or whatever. Obviously it is basically he said/she said and would never result in a conviction of anything, but that's kind of the point.

This is a guy whose stand-up schtick is basically "I thought I was being saucy because I messaged 'heyy' instead of 'hey' on a dating app but it turns out there are guys who send girls unsolicited pictures of their genitals!" Within that context, he comes off in the story as someone who is acutely aware of what the standard for "real world sexual assault" is and exploits that by repeatedly walking right up to that line with no concern about how his date actually responds to his repeated overtures. So that does seem newsworthy due to being in stark contrast to his "woke male feminist" persona.

On top of that, even if the consensus is that it was just a "shitty date" and not "real world sexual assault," it's probably a conversation worth having that when I try to think of what I'd consider a shitty date, I think of the conversation being dull or the girl not being as attractive as she seemed in pictures. Getting groped against my will or worse is not even on the radar.

[RainMaker]

I guess I should have specified in an actual court of law rather than the court of public opinion. As someone else mentioned, nobody's trying to say what he did is as egregious as what Weinstein did. The vast majority of the piece is just her explaining what happened and the only mention of sexual assault is:

which indicates that it was very borderline to her and not something that should result in Ansari being kicked out of Hollywood or whatever. Obviously it is basically he said/she said and would never result in a conviction of anything, but that's kind of the point.

This is a guy whose stand-up schtick is basically "I thought I was being saucy because I messaged 'heyy' instead of 'hey' on a dating app but it turns out there are guys who send girls unsolicited pictures of their genitals!" Within that context, he comes off in the story as someone who is acutely aware of what the standard for "real world sexual assault" is and exploits that by repeatedly walking right up to that line with no concern about how his date actually responds to his repeated overtures. So that does seem newsworthy due to being in stark contrast to his "woke male feminist" persona.

On top of that, even if the consensus is that it was just a "shitty date" and not "real world sexual assault," it's probably a conversation worth having that when I try to think of what I'd consider a shitty date, I think of the conversation being dull or the girl not being as attractive as she seemed in pictures. Getting groped against my will or worse is not even on the radar.

It wasn't borderline at all. It is in no way a sexual assault. Maybe Aziz is a pervert or sleazy. Maybe he's just really bad at sex. Maybe it goes against what he says in his stand-up specials and you should stop watching them.

That has nothing to do with sexual assault or the current #MeToo movement. There was no sexual assault that took place. No power dynamic he held over her career. It was just a bad date by two incompatible people.

If you want to turn this into a "conversation", the lesson should be that you are free to leave someone's apartment if you don't like how they are acting toward you. You are free to say "this date sucks" and call an Uber. Heck, even taking the more puritanical view of "a date shouldn't make a move on the first date" is fine. But this is just a sad way to latch on to an actual movement removing actual predators from society.

[nol]

If you want to turn this into a "conversation", the lesson should be that you are free to leave someone's apartment if you don't like how they are acting toward you.

If you're unaware there's a nonzero chance a man may become angry and violent towards a woman who flat-out refuses to have sex with him, I don't know what planet you've been living on.

But this is just a sad way to latch on to an actual movement removing actual predators from society.

Yes, I agree it is sad for someone who is quite sleazy behind closed doors to be front and center at the Golden Globes wearing all black and a "time's up" pin.

[thesloppy]

It wasn't borderline at all. It is in no way a sexual assault. Maybe Aziz is a pervert or sleazy. Maybe he's just really bad at sex. Maybe it goes against what he says in his stand-up specials and you should stop watching them.

That has nothing to do with sexual assault or the current #MeToo movement. There was no sexual assault that took place. No power dynamic he held over her career. It was just a bad date by two incompatible people.

If you want to turn this into a "conversation", the lesson should be that you are free to leave someone's apartment if you don't like how they are acting toward you. You are free to say "this date sucks" and call an Uber. Heck, even taking the more puritanical view of "a date shouldn't make a move on the first date" is fine. But this is just a sad way to latch on to an actual movement removing actual predators from society.

While I don't ENTIRELY disagree with your assertion that this incident shouldn't be held up in public as a standard for sexual assault, I gotta say that I recoil at your repeated suggestions that this is typical or acceptable first/any date behavior.

[RainMaker]

If you're unaware there's a nonzero chance a man may become angry and violent towards a woman who flat-out refuses to have sex with him, I don't know what planet you've been living on.

Women are not as weak as you think they are. They are capable of leaving a date when they no longer are enjoying themselves.

As for your "do whatever a man says because he may get violent even though he has shown no signs of being violent" approach, I would not recommend teaching it to women today.

Yes, I agree it is sad for someone who is quite sleazy behind closed doors to be front and center at the Golden Globes wearing all black and a "time's up" pin.

The Times Up movement is for sexual harassment and assault in the workplace. Being a sleazeball on a date with someone you don't work with does not fall in that category.

[bhlloy]

The Times Up movement is for sexual harassment and assault in the workplace. Being a sleazeball on a date with someone you don't work with does not fall in that category.

You can't possibly think that's a distinction that matters in this case? Technically you are right, but come on.

[GrantDawg]

I haven't seen the woman, but I have seen Aziz. I bet she could take him.

[nol]

Women are not as weak as you think they are. They are capable of leaving a date when they no longer are enjoying themselves.

Not always. It’s quite common for a woman to acquiesce to a man she feels may become violent and then end up feeling shitty afterwards. Aziz handled himself better than the average guy in these circumstances by virtue of being a multimillionaire actor/comedian who can easily move onto the next girl; in most cases making it home from the actual date is just the tip of the iceberg. The average guy who thinks he’s going to get laid but doesn’t is going to continue to ask the girl out. If she turns him down he’s likely to harass her and call her a slut if he thinks she’s going out with another guy.

As for your "do whatever a man says because he may get violent even though he has shown no signs of being violent" approach, I would not recommend teaching it to women today.

You are showing your bias by seeing an account of a guy following a woman around his apartment for 30 minutes whenever she tries to get some space for herself, repeatedly grabbing her hand and putting it on his dick, sticking his fingers down her throat and so on and characterizing it as “no signs of being violent.” This is a country that regularly justifies shooting people to death over much less threatening gestures than that.

The Times Up movement is for sexual harassment and assault in the workplace. Being a sleazeball on a date with someone you don't work with does not fall in that category.

So if you go on a date with someone, get her to come back to your apartment, and kiss her, pretty much everything after that is fair game in other words. We live in a country where spousal rape was still legal in some places as recently as the 90s, and this attitude seems to be a vestige of that. “She’s free to leave the date” versus “She’s free to get a divorce.”

It's quite possible that women would like to be free from harrassment and assault in the workplace AND they'd appreciate if, in their personal lives, being constantly badgered into sex was not the norm even from 'nice guys' they're interested in dating. That's probably something where one would have to consult with actual women rather than Aziz Ansari or some random guy on a football message board to be positive though.

[RainMaker]

You are showing your bias by seeing an account of a guy following a woman around his apartment for 30 minutes whenever she tries to get some space for herself, repeatedly grabbing her hand and putting it on his dick, sticking his fingers down her throat and so on and characterizing it as “no signs of being violent.” This is a country that regularly justifies shooting people to death over much less threatening gestures than that.

You can get a lot of space by leaving the apartment. Just walking to the door and exiting to get away from this "violent" person.

So if you go on a date with someone, get her to come back to your apartment, and kiss her, pretty much everything after that is fair game in other words. We live in a country where spousal rape was still legal in some places as recently as the 90s, and this attitude seems to be a vestige of that. “She’s free to leave the date” versus “She’s free to get a divorce.”

Not at all.

[RainMaker]

The woman who sought out the woman and wrote the piece seems really sane too.

The email a Babe.net writer wrote to HLN's Ashleigh Banfield about the Aziz Ansari story - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/aziz-ansari-writer-email-to-hln-ashleigh-banfield-2018-1)

[NobodyHere]

Michael Douglas anyone?

Michael Douglas accuser on alleged sexual harassment: 'I was humiliated' | Film | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/18/michael-douglas-sexual-harassment-accusations-susan-braudy)

[Kodos]

That one probably isn't so surprising.

[Edward64]

How stupid and arrogant are you to say something like this.

That was back in 2003 vs current environment but still ...

https://pagesix.com/2018/02/06/tarantino-polanskis-13-year-old-rape-victim-wanted-to-have-it/?_ga=2.113911812.2085748514.1517951957-289179388.1493575353
Quentin Tarantino may be trying to act like a woeful choir boy in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein allegations, but he seems all the more mendacious in the light of an old interview in which he claimed Roman Polanski’s 13-year-old rape victim “wanted to have it.”

Tarantino defended Polanski during a 2003 Howard Stern interview — that resurfaced on Jezebel — saying, “He didn’t rape a 13-year-old…he had sex with a minor. That’s not rape.”

When reminded by Stern sidekick Robin Quivers that Polanski’s victim was plied with drugs and alcohol, Tarantino said, “No that was not the case at all. She wanted to have it [sex] and dated the guy…Look, she was down with this.”

[Edward64]

Good mea-culpa.

Now just STFU about everything except make movies.

(Not sure I understand Uma's choking and spitting and if, at that time, it was appropriate for the movie. If it wasn't just slide down a hole)

Quentin Tarantino Apologizes To Polanski Rape Victim For 2003 Remarks To Howard Stern | HuffPost (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/quentin-tarantino-roman-polanski-samantha-geimer-howard-stern_us_5a7cc26de4b0c6726e11458e?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)
Quentin Tarantino has apologized to the woman who was sexually assaulted by director Roman Polanski for comments he made about her on Howard Stern’s radio show in 2003.

Tarantino released a public apology on Wednesday to Samantha Geimer on Wednesday after he apologized to her by phone, IndieWire.com reported.

The apology came after the director’s 2003 interview with Howard Stern resurfaced earlier this week.

In the interview, Tarantino seemed to downplay Polanski’s 1977 assault of Geimer, who was 13 at the time. Polanski pleaded guilty to unlawful sex with a minor but fled the country before sentencing.

“She wanted to have it,” Tarantino says in the clip, which is no longer available. “He didn’t rape a 13-year-old. It was statutory rape. That’s not quite the same thing.

“He had sex with a minor, all right. That’s not rape. To me, when you use the word ‘rape,’ you’re talking about violent, throwing them down.”

Geimer disagreed, telling the New York Daily News: “He was wrong. I bet he knows it.” She added: “I hope he doesn’t make an a― of himself and keep talking that way.”

Here’s Tarantino’s statement:

“I want to publicly apologize to Samantha Geimer for my cavalier remarks on “The Howard Stern Show” speculating about her and the crime that was committed against her. Fifteen years later, I realize how wrong I was. Ms. Geimer WAS raped by Roman Polanski. When Howard brought up Polanski, I incorrectly played devil’s advocate in the debate for the sake of being provocative. I didn’t take Ms. Geimer’s feelings into consideration and for that I am truly sorry.

So, Ms. Geimer, I was ignorant, and insensitive, and above all, incorrect.

I am sorry Samantha.

Quentin Tarantino”

[Thomkal]

Morgan Freeman's turn to "shine"


https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/entertainment/morgan-freeman-accusations/index.html

[Edward64]

Oh no ... not "God" also.

[Kodos]

I guess they caught him "Red" handed.

[NobodyHere]

Morgan Freeman's turn to "shine"


https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/entertainment/morgan-freeman-accusations/index.html

When reading that article I keep imagining that Morgan Freeman is narrating it.

[Edward64]

When reading that article I keep imagining that Morgan Freeman is narrating it.

Now that you mention it ... good one

[Thomkal]

Harvey Weinstein set to turn himself into authorities today

[albionmoonlight]

Harvey Weinstein set to turn himself into authorities today

I didn't realize that he was wanted criminally.

Too bad he turned himself in. It would have been fascinating to watch an O.J. style run from the police in the age of Twitter.

[digamma]

I think the NY authorities just announced the charges yesterday alb.

[QuikSand]

Chris Hardwick, apparently

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/nerdist-removes-chris-hardwick-references-site-alleged-abuse-claim-1120557

[Toddzilla]

Chris Hardwick, apparently

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/nerdist-removes-chris-hardwick-references-site-alleged-abuse-claim-1120557That story is horrifying. Knowing Hardwick has had some pretty serious struggles with mental illness kind of explains some of it, but excuses none of it.

[Groundhog]

Yeah, it's in the shocking but not surprising category for me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

How in the hell is he old enough to have had (legally) a g.f. 20 years his junior?

[stevew]

How in the hell is he old enough to have had (legally) a g.f. 20 years his junior?

Singled out was in like 2000 or something.

[Drake]

Put me in the camp of also not realizing he was my age. I thought he was in his early 30's.

Apparently TV adds ten pounds but gives you back 15 years as compensation.

[stevew]

Seems suspect

[Radii]

A piece of shit is a piece of shit no matter what, but I believe part of Hardwick's appeal on the Nerdist podcasts is that he would openly talk about demons from his past like alcoholism and his journey to being a better person. Discovering that while he was doing that he was actively being a complete piece of shit human being in this manner makes this one a little extra frustrating.

[Edward64]

You know, I would not be surprised if the story is true.

However, it is unsettling that it is one person accusing him (so far) who was in a failed relationship with him (he says she was unfaithful).

I don't know what the answer is.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/17/entertainment/chris-hardwick-chloe-dykstra-allegations/index.html

[Edward64]

Good to see that there has not been a pattern per his wife and 3 ex-girlfriends.

https://uproxx.com/news/chris-hardwick-exes-defend-him-abuse-allegations/
Two weeks ago, Nerdist erased all traces of founder and CEO Chris Hardwick after actress Chloe Dykstra published a Medium post that alleged “long-term” abuse, both emotional and sexual, (along with career blacklisting) against an unnamed ex-boyfriend who she accused of controlling behavior. Due to the specified timing and several other details, many people believed that Hardwick was the ex in question, and his career has taken several hits, including the shelving of his AMC talk show and cancellation of Comic-Con appearances.

Amid these allegations, Hardwick’s wife, Lydia Hearst, issued a statement of support for her husband, and over the past week, three of his ex-girlfriends have also come to his defense. All of these women have stressed that their experiences with him were very different than the ones described by Dykstra, and they urged the public not to rush to judgment:

[stevew]

Hardwick back on AMC.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hardwick back on AMC.

I thought they just announced his replacement (Y.N. Brown) earlier this week?

edit to add: Googling reveals to me that she was announced earlier in the month, that I only heard about it in the last couple days

[stevew]

Looks like the Chen bot's husband is out at CBS or will be soon

[Edward64]

Another hypocrite.

With that said, if it happened to me as a 17 year old male, I wouldn't have called it a sexual assault. Nevertheless, she probably would have known he was underage.

What he got was considerably less than what he asked for so there may be more to the story.

Weinstein accuser Asia Argento made deal to pay her own sexual assault accuser, bombshell report says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/08/19/weinstein-accuser-asia-argento-made-deal-to-pay-her-own-sexual-assault-accuser-bombshell-report-says.html)
Actress Asia Argento, one of the first prominent women to accuse disgraced movie mogul Harvey Weinstein of sexual assault, agreed to pay $380,000 to an actor who accused her of sexually assaulting him when he was 17 years old, The New York Times reported Sunday night.

The actor claimed that the assault took place in a California hotel room in 2013, according to the report. The age of consent in California is 18.

Neither Argento's representatives nor the actor's attorney immediately responded to Fox News' request for comment.

The newspaper obtained documents sent between lawyers for Argento and the accuser that laid out a payment schedule. The paper also obtained a photograph dated May 9, 2013 that showed the two lying in a bed together.

On that date, according to a notice of intent to sue document sent to Argento's then-lawyer in November, Argento met the actor at the Ritz-Carlton hotel in Marina del Rey, Calif. After giving him alcohol, Argento kissed him and performed oral sex on him before the two had sexual intercourse, the report said.

The notice of intent asked for $3.5 million in damages. The Times reported that the final agreement was reached in April of this year.

[RedKingGold]

Another hypocrite.

With that said, if it happened to me as a 17 year old male, I wouldn't have called it a sexual assault. Nevertheless, she probably would have known he was underage.

What he got was considerably less than what he asked for so there may be more to the story.

Weinstein accuser Asia Argento made deal to pay her own sexual assault accuser, bombshell report says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/08/19/weinstein-accuser-asia-argento-made-deal-to-pay-her-own-sexual-assault-accuser-bombshell-report-says.html)

Victim shaming is cool! :thumbsup:

[miami_fan]

To be fair, she is not a victim in this case, she is the perpetrator.

That being said, I am glad to see that we are all on the same page now when it comes to believing victims when they come forward with accusations.

[stevew]

Sick stuff. She played that kid's mum when he was 5-6 years old.

[ISiddiqui]

That being said, I am glad to see that we are all on the same page now when it comes to believing victims when they come forward with accusations.

LOL :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

That being said, I am glad to see that we are all on the same page now when it comes to believing victims when they come forward with accusations.

Goodness knows THAT would be the highly responsible thing to do :lol:

[tarcone]

If ever a place had a rape culture, it is Hollywood.

[JPhillips]

It's anywhere there's a big discrepancy in power. Eventually those with great power held over those with little to know power will abuse their authority. That's why we need laws instead of trusting humans to do the right thing.

[Edward64]

It's anywhere there's a big discrepancy in power. Eventually those with great power held over those with little to know power will abuse their authority. That's why we need laws instead of trusting humans to do the right thing.

Definitely agree with this, thinking about the Catholic Church also.

Laws are great but would also include continuous education campaign where those sexually assaulted have an avenue to pursue and not just take it. I do think there is more "grey" in sexual harassment (e.g. was it a one-time or pattern, are there cultural differences etc.).

With that all said, there are very likely cases of false accusations so somehow those need to be accounted for also.

[Radii]

The military is the #1 place I think of for power abuses being made very possible like this outside of Weinstein.

[Edward64]

To be fair, she is not a victim in this case, she is the perpetrator.

That being said, I am glad to see that we are all on the same page now when it comes to believing victims when they come forward with accusations.

I kinda think she is both a victim and perpetrator. I don't know but maybe her experience with Weinstein made prey on the kid?

Not sure if RedKingGold read the whole article before giving her a pass.

[stevew]

I mean this obviously had to play a role in Anthony Bourdain's suicide right?

[Edward64]

I mean this obviously had to play a role in Anthony Bourdain's suicide right?

I didn't think so but now apparently he knew about it.

https://pagesix.com/2018/08/21/asia-argento-denies-sexual-assault-says-payoff-was-anthony-bourdains-idea/?_ga=2.42587877.1773964228.1534531023-1410051150.1520085772
Actress Asia Argento on Tuesday denied allegations that she sexually assaulted a 17-year-old former co-star — claiming her late boyfriend Anthony Bourdain paid the hush money only to stave off “negative publicity.”

A bombshell report Sunday alleged that Argento paid actor and musician Jimmy Bennett $380,000 last year after he accused her of plying him with booze and molesting him years earlier when he was a teen.

In a statement Tuesday, she finally responded to the assault allegations, calling them “absolutely false” and insisting she never had “any sexual relationship” with Bennett — who played her young son in the 2003 movie “The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things.”

[miami_fan]

I kinda think she is both a victim and perpetrator. I don't know but maybe her experience with Weinstein made prey on the kid?

Not sure if RedKingGold read the whole article before giving her a pass.

Given what was reported, the only way she is a victim in this case in my eyes is if the kid has made a false accusation against her. I can't speak for RKG but maybe he believes she was being falsely accused. I guess we should hold off on judgement until a proper investigation is done.

[ISiddiqui]

Argento now says she didn't have any sexual relations with Bennett at all, even though there is a picture of both of them in bed. I mean if she said something like, yes, he was underage but she didn't coerce him and it was mutual (while also understanding that someone under age legally can't give consent), I may have been inclined to listen to her story. But to flatly deny it just seems like covering it up.

Oh, and the sex between Argento and Bennett happened 5 years ago. Well before Argento and Bourdain were together, so I don't think it triggered the suicide.

[stevew]

He helped pay the kid off after he was so out there against Weinstein, no? Had to be a factor, unless I'm totally not understanding this. His reputation was about to go in the shitter.

[Edward64]

I wouldn't be surprised if this is about $ for the kid (e.g. her comment about shakedown) but the evidence re: sex leans against her. I could believe that she did not know he was underage but her denials about not having sex with him doesn't seem credible.

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/celebrity/photo-text-messages-appear-contradict-asia-argento-s-denial-relationship-n902876
A photo showing Italian actress Asia Argento alongside an underage actor who has reportedly accused her of sexual assault appears to contradict her claim that the two never had a sexual relationship.

The photo, published on Wednesday by TMZ, purports to show Argento in bed with Jimmy Bennett, the young actor who said in documents obtained by the New York Times that he had sex with the actress in a California hotel in 2013, two months after he turned 17.
:
The Times has reported that it received documents that included a selfie of Argento and Bennett in bed. The newspaper said three people familiar with the case had said the documents were authentic.
:
TMZ also published screenshots of text messages that it claimed were exchanges between Argento and an unidentified friend following the publication of the Times report on Sunday. In the screenshots, Argento purportedly said: "I had sex with him it felt weird. I didn't know he was a minor until the shakedown letter." NBC News has not verified the text messages.

[CrimsonFox]

Kevin Spacey Now Facing Another Sexual Assault Investigation (http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/kevin-spacey-now-facing-another-sexual-assault-investigation/)

Another notch in Spacey's belt

[Edward64]

I looked at the video and I would define it as groping. The taco bell joke was definitely in very poor taste.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/aretha-franklin-funeral-bishop-apologizes-to-ariana-grande-for-groping-taco-bell-joke-718402/
The bishop who served as the emcee at Aretha Franklin‘s funeral apologized to Ariana Grande following accusations that he groped the singer onstage as well as likened the singer to a Taco Bell menu item.

[Kodos]

I guess Neil deGrasse Tyson is up next. These things are hard. You don't want to believe they happened.

Neil deGrasse Tyson denies sexual misconduct allegations (https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2018/12/01/misconduct-allegations-against-neil-degrasse-tyson-reviewed/2172432002/)

[Edward64]

I really want to believe Neil is innocent

[Thomkal]

Les Moonves denied any of his $120 million in his severance payment from CBS-saying there was merit in the allegations:


https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/17/media/cbs-ceo-les-moonves-no-severance/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-12-17T22%3A41%3A43&utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=image

[CrimsonFox]

Kevin Spacey up for a felony charge...
I have not watched the "strange video" he recently released yet.

[Edward64]

I really want to believe Neil is innocent

A little more news.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson's 'StarTalk' Grounded During Probe Of Sexual Misconduct Allegations | HuffPost (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/neil-degrasse-tyson-startalk-yanked-misconduct-probe_us_5c2ec23ee4b05c88b707a504)
The “StarTalk” TV show hosted by popular astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson will be off the air during an investigation into sexual misconduct allegations against him, according to media reports.

Just three episodes of the fifth season of “StarTalk” ran in November before the program was suspended after allegations of sexual misconduct emerged against Tyson.

Now a decision has been made to halt the program until some conclusion is reached in an investigation by the National Geographic Channel and Fox Networks Group, which share “Cosmos,” also hosted by Tyson. Both Nat Geo and Fox had planned to launch a revival of “Cosmos: Possible Worlds” in March.

Tyson is also the director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History in New York.

“In order to allow the investigation to occur unimpeded, we chose to hold new episodes of ‘Star Talk’ until it is complete,” a representative of Nat Geo told Variety, which was the first to report the decision. “We expect that to happen in the next few weeks at which time we’ll make a final decision.”

Tyson has denied all the accusations and said he welcomes an investigation.

Patheos.com reported in November on a rape allegation by Tchiya Amet, which she said occurred in 1984 when she was a student at the University of Texas at Austin while Tyson was working on his doctorate.

Bucknell professor Katelyn Allers also accused Tyson of “grabbing” her in 2009, and production assistant Ashley Watson accused him of making unwanted sexual advances over wine and cheese in 2018, Patheos also reported.

Tyson denied the allegations in a lengthy Facebook post. He said he was “searching for Pluto” in a solar system tattoo on Allers’ shoulder — beneath the material of her sleeveless dress. He said the wine and cheese was simply that. And he wrote that the sex with Amet was consensual.