2018 MLB Thread

[MrBug708]

It could be titled Otani watch, but for now, the M's tske on Dee Gordon's salary to gain more financial freedom to sign the Japanese star

[dacman]

I've been telling people for several weeks now that Ohtani will be a Mariner.

[MrBug708]

Apparently Stanton will only approve a deal to the Dodgers, Yankees, Astros, and Cubs

[BYU 14]

Apparently Stanton will only approve a deal to the Dodgers, Yankees, Astros, and Cubs

Please come to New York!!

[MrBug708]

Yankees probably want their money with Harper

[Vince, Pt. II]

Rumors coming out today that the four team list was premature and that Stanton has not officially ruled out any team.

[Neuqua]

Ohtani to the Angels.

Interesting.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Did not see that one coming. I thought he was Seattle bound for sure.

[MrBug708]

The Angels were the only team that would agree to let Ohtani both hit and pitch every day
— Sam Miller (@SamMillerBB) December 8, 2017

[Logan]

The Angels were the only team that would agree to let Ohtani both hit and pitch every day
— Sam Miller (@SamMillerBB) December 8, 2017

Hope they can keep that story straight for the inevitable investigation.

[BYU 14]

I think he is a good fit for the Angels. If his power translates, gives them some much need left handed pop in the lineup, a nice 4 man OF rotation and pitching depth, in which he could end up anywhere from a 1 to 3 starter.

[Jas_lov]

Yanks have a deal with Marlins for Stanton. Not sure yet what they're giving up. Starlin Castro and prospects is all I've seen reported.

[MrBug708]

That's a pretty strong RH lineup and essentially takes them out of the. Bryce Harper sweepstakes

[BYU 14]

That's a pretty strong RH lineup and essentially takes them out of the. Bryce Harper sweepstakes

Yeah, not fun facing Sanchez, Stanton and Judge consecutively. I am okay with Castro going as it opens up second for Gleyber Torres, who should be fully recovered from TJ surgery. Torreyes could slide in their too if they can't get rid of Headley.

If they can add another starter to shore up the 4/5 spot in the rotation that is a lineup that can contend for years.

[PilotMan]

I just want to stop by and say, Fuck the Yankees, and Fuck Stanton. I won't miss seeing him in the NL, and I was secretly holding out hope that LA could figure out a way to get the deal done, but knew it probably wouldn't happen. Otani (sp) took away the Angels for him, but still. Fuck everyone.

[BYU 14]

I just want to stop by and say, Fuck the Yankees, and Fuck Stanton. I won't miss seeing him in the NL, and I was secretly holding out hope that LA could figure out a way to get the deal done, but knew it probably wouldn't happen. Otani (sp) took away the Angels for him, but still. Fuck everyone.

Yanks will take Kershaw for him :)

[PilotMan]

Yanks will take Kershaw for him :)

YOU! GO BACK TO YOUR CORNER! YOU'LL TALK WHEN I SAY YOU CAN!

[Shkspr]

So after this, Jeter can leave the Marlins and attempt to hook up with the Cubs, right? Kris Bryant would look good in pinstripes.

[stevew]

Yeah, not fun facing Sanchez, Stanton and Judge consecutively. I am okay with Castro going as it opens up second for Gleyber Torres, who should be fully recovered from TJ surgery. Torreyes could slide in their too if they can't get rid of Headley.

If they can add another starter to shore up the 4/5 spot in the rotation that is a lineup that can contend for years.

Yeah it's a lineup that could post close to 300 homers.

[JPhillips]

If the reported 35 mil from FL is correct, with Castro included the deal could be almost salary neutral up to Stanton's option year.

[frnk55]

I'm so surprised the LA didn't get Stanton. That team has more money than God. Can't stand em.

[MrBug708]

I'm so surprised the LA didn't get Stanton. That team has more money than God. Can't stand em.

Dodgers don't really want to take on bad contracts anymore. They also care about the luxury tax because of draft position implications

[stevew]

Bad contracts are guys like Albert pujols. Not reigning MVPs that still play the field at an acceptable level

[MrBug708]

A guy averaging 120 games a year and a mediocre fielder with 10 years left, is a bad contract. Doesn't make him a bad player

[Toddzilla]

I think Pujols was measured as the worst every-day player in the majors last season (may have been 2016). Nothing to do with salary, just simple awfulness.

EDIT: nope, this year https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/albert-pujols-is-the-worst-player-in-baseball/

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, while that contract is perfectly fine for the next two or three years, it's eventually going to be categorically awful.

[BYU 14]

A guy averaging 120 games a year and a mediocre fielder with 10 years left, is a bad contract. Doesn't make him a bad player

Makes him a nice DH though :)

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, while that contract is perfectly fine for the next two or three years, it's eventually going to be categorically awful.

If he falls apart, it's a bad deal. If he continues to play well, he'll opt out so this could only be a 3 year deal for the Yanks.

[MrBug708]

If he falls apart, it's a bad deal. If he continues to play well, he'll opt out so this could only be a 3 year deal for the Yanks.

I don't conceivably see him opting out and getting a better deal

[tarcone]

Dang, I wish Ozzie Smith was the Marlins GM

[stevew]

Ted Simmons finished 1 vote short of the HOF?

[Atocep]

Ted Simmons finished 1 vote short of the HOF?

Yeah I think it's past time to fold the veteran's committee .

[SackAttack]

I don't conceivably see him opting out and getting a better deal

If he puts up three healthy years at a high level - not necessarily threatening 60 every year, just 'I'm healthy, and I'm raking,' somebody will give him 7/210 and not even blink. That's his floor in an opt-out scenario. How much higher he goes depends on other circumstances.

[Chief Rum]

If he puts up three healthy years at a high level - not necessarily threatening 60 every year, just 'I'm healthy, and I'm raking,' somebody will give him 7/210 and not even blink. That's his floor in an opt-out scenario. How much higher he goes depends on other circumstances.

Isn't he already getting that in the current deal?

[JPhillips]

I think the opt-out depends on what Harper and Machado get.

[SackAttack]

Isn't he already getting that in the current deal?

Yes. And that, IMO, is his floor, provided he stays healthy and productive.

Unless his production craters or he goes back to being hurt every year, there's no reason for him not to exercise his opt-out.

[Chief Rum]

Yes. And that, IMO, is his floor, provided he stays healthy and productive.

Unless his production craters or he goes back to being hurt every year, there's no reason for him not to exercise his opt-out.

That's the thing. Unless he is going to get significantly more, he won't opt out. Now I would guess after three productive years, he will find someone to give him significantly more, and he would opt out. But if all.signs point to him signing a similar contract to what he already has, what is the benefit of opting out?

[SackAttack]

That's the thing. Unless he is going to get significantly more, he won't opt out. Now I would guess after three productive years, he will find someone to give him significantly more, and he would opt out. But if all.signs point to him signing a similar contract to what he already has, what is the benefit of opting out?

If what you have is the floor of what you'll get, then the benefit is that there's nothing but upside to opting out, and that upside isn't necessarily fiscal.

At minimum, opting out gives him the freedom to choose his destination for the first time, and maybe that choice is driven by other-than-financial considerations.

But in terms of straight compensation, as JPhillips alluded to, next year's FA market could reset what "market" means for Stanton. If he's making $32m or so AAV and Machado and Harper push more like $40m AAV, there's upside there for Stanton even if he doesn't join them in the $40m AAV club.

And even without that, having the leverage to play 29 other teams against the Yankees - particularly if he's been productive - gives him the opportunity to boost his take.

Shoot, if nothing ELSE, he can tell the Yankees "look, I signed the deal I signed because I was playing half my games in Florida, where there's no income tax. If you want me around for the long haul, we need to talk about a new contract that addresses that." This year, the Yanks kind of had all the leverage. Nobody else he wanted to play for was willing to assume enough of the contract to make anything happen, from the sound of it. Everybody in the world knew he wanted out of Miami. Three years from now, that changes.

He has the leverage then, with the ability to opt out, the threat of signing with Boston or another major media market, and the aging and development of their young players could mean that, draft-wise, they won't have been able to get a franchise-level talent to plug into the hole he leaves behind (because they'll have been winning 90+ every year).

It's a no-lose scenario for him. If he gets hurt again or just sucks, he's got $295 million coming that nobody can take away from him. If he maintains or even improves his performance, there is no downside to opting out. Just upside; the question is how much.

[Chief Rum]

Yea but you said 7/$210 M. That's the entire crux of what I'm saying. All of what you say are sensible reasons to opt out, but almost all of those are for money reasons. If he is going to opt out, he needs to have a really good idea he is going to get significantly more than what he is already set to make. Which is not 7/$210 M. Just as hypothetical, let's say he would get 8/$280 instead, maybe with another opt out after three years. That's a reason to opt out.

I guess what I am really saying, in your original argument, you shouldn't have tossed out 7/210, but a significantly better new deal. Otherwise, outside of non-baseball reasons, as you mention, why opt out?

[Vince, Pt. II]

I feel like I'm missing something, but if he knows he's going to get AT LEAST what he's already making, why wouldn't he opt out? Why does it need to be significantly more? Isn't even $1 more a "successful" opt out?

[Chief Rum]

I feel like I'm missing something, but if he knows he's going to get AT LEAST what he's already making, why wouldn't he opt out? Why does it need to be significantly more? Isn't even $1 more a "successful" opt out?

Sack didn't say a $1 more. He said he's getting the same amount (in his hypothetical).

[Shkspr]

Just to clarify, after the 2020 optout date, Stanton's deal has 7 years and 208 million guaranteed, and an additional team option at $25 million with a $10 million buyout. That said, opting out makes sense even if you don't think you'll get more money, if it lets you choose where to go in three years. Right now, Stanton had the leverage to force the move to the Yankees. Three years from now, he may want to go somewhere else.

The real question, as has been suggested, is what do the deals of Harper, Machado, and Trout do to the market? Harper is probably the most relevant next domino to fall because of two reasons: first, he apparently wants a record-breaking contract, and second, he's really only had one season that merits record-breaking. His established level is at the 5 win WAR mark, with significant upside, but also the likelihood of missing about 20 games a year with one injury or another. Supposedly the $500 million figure has been thrown around, but if you pay him that, what the hell does Mike Trout get when he's worth about $15-20 million more a year than Harper?

I think when all is said and done, the contract number for Harper is 10/$380. That gets him:
The largest total contract in American team sport history,
The largest single season contract in MLB history,
The largest AAV in MLB history,
And will put his total career earnings by the end of the deal above A-Rod.

But, it doesn't overvalue him all that much. The upside on Harper is that even at the end of that deal, he's only 35. The real key to that deal is if he can produce more than 5-6 WAR a year during the meat of the deal. If he can, then he should still be an asset at the end of the deal. More importantly, if Harper is worth $38 million a year, then Stanton in 2020 can probably get $40 million. The only problem for Stanton is that he's at best the 2nd best OF on the market, because that's when Trout hits FA, as well. Trout's going to be the guy breaking (likely Harper's) records for salary.

[stevew]

If Stanton opts out he already knows what kind of offer is available to him. Tampering almost always happens.

[Arles]

I feel like I'm missing something, but if he knows he's going to get AT LEAST what he's already making, why wouldn't he opt out? Why does it need to be significantly more? Isn't even $1 more a "successful" opt out?
Since his current deal includes a full no-trade clause, I'm guessing he would need a lot more money to opt out (and potentially give that up).

[RainMaker]

Are we sure that the contracts are going to keep going up? Take Harper for example. How many teams can realistically offer him the kind of massive money we're talking about here? I feel like we have enough good GMs in the game now that these giant deals are going to be rarer.

[SackAttack]

Yea but you said 7/$210 M. That's the entire crux of what I'm saying. All of what you say are sensible reasons to opt out, but almost all of those are for money reasons. If he is going to opt out, he needs to have a really good idea he is going to get significantly more than what he is already set to make. Which is not 7/$210 M. Just as hypothetical, let's say he would get 8/$280 instead, maybe with another opt out after three years. That's a reason to opt out.

I said 7/$210 is his floor, as that's approximately what would be remaining on his contract at that point. And, actually, looking at bb-ref, 7/208 is what remains of his guaranteed money after this year ($10m buyout on his $25m option year also), so a 7/$210m contract is still a marginal improvement.

But the crux of what I'M saying is that even if, financially, 7/$210M (or $208M) is what he stands to make if he opts out, there is zero reason not to do so, because even if the dollars don't change, he can improve the contract in other ways.

I guess what I am really saying, in your original argument, you shouldn't have tossed out 7/210, but a significantly better new deal. Otherwise, outside of non-baseball reasons, as you mention, why opt out?

I tossed out the numbers I did because they represent a floor. In any world in which an opt-out is likely, he's not dropping below that point. Given that, there's no reason not to opt out (or make the team believe you will) and see if you can improve your contractual terms, whether that's guaranteeing the 8th year that's currently an option, seeing if you can play the market for more money, making the same money you're already slated to make but for a team you'd rather play for, or any of a dozen other creative options that his agents would no doubt brainstorm.

It's the whole point of a player option. You don't negotiate for something you there's no point using, assuming (as players will) that you perform up to the standards you expect of yourself.

I feel like I'm missing something, but if he knows he's going to get AT LEAST what he's already making, why wouldn't he opt out? Why does it need to be significantly more? Isn't even $1 more a "successful" opt out?

Pretty much this, and again, that ignores the possibility that there may be tangential improvements to new the contract that aren't directly tied to financial compensation.

Sack didn't say a $1 more. He said he's getting the same amount (in his hypothetical).

I said he's not getting less on the open market than what he's already making. That's what "a floor" means. Please don't misrepresent my argument. As long as he stays healthy and productive - and productive needn't mean a repeat of 2017 - what he's slated to make represents the minimum he can expect on the open market. Given that, there is zero reason not to explore the upside potential.

[SackAttack]

Are we sure that the contracts are going to keep going up? Take Harper for example. How many teams can realistically offer him the kind of massive money we're talking about here? I feel like we have enough good GMs in the game now that these giant deals are going to be rarer.

There's a limited pool of players who could expect to command that kind of money to begin with. Machado, Harper, Trout, Kershaw, Bumgarner, Stanton.

There's dudes a tier down who've enjoyed the rising tide effect of those top salaries, but that's the tier I'd expect to be affected by the "good GMs." The elite are likely to still get paid. Yes, their market shrinks some because there's a more limited number of teams that can realistically play in that pool - Tampa Bay is never going to be a threat to sign Harper. Neither is Milwaukee. So forth.

But as long as there are a half-dozen or so markets who have to contend with outsized fanbase expectations, generational talents will get paid.

[stevew]

Padres totally fucked the rest of the league by taking on the Headley deal. Means the Yankees can easily sign CC, probably Frazier and a few reliever types(or take a gamble on Pineda for a 2 year UCL rehab)

[Vince, Pt. II]

What in the heck do the Padres get out of that deal?

[BishopMVP]

Are we sure that the contracts are going to keep going up? Take Harper for example. How many teams can realistically offer him the kind of massive money we're talking about here? I feel like we have enough good GMs in the game now that these giant deals are going to be rarer.Like Sack said, the top of the baseball market has always gone up higher & faster than people a decade before would've thought feasible.

Glad to see the Yankees going back to being hated for buying players. Since Dombrowski showed up in Boston we've been the ones overpaying for players in FA/trades while the Yankees grew a homegrown core.

[MrBug708]

Sounding like Ozuna is going to end up on the Cards

[Arles]

Yeah, looks like for a package involving Sandy Alcantara and some lesser prospects. I like the move. As much as Stanton is a stud, I think I'd rather have the younger and cheaper Ozuna (who still hit 37 bombs with a .924 OPS).

[JPhillips]

I'm really worried that the ball will change again and the HR numbers will drop league wide. I wouldn't want to commit much money to guys that had career years in 2017.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, looks like for a package involving Sandy Alcantara and some lesser prospects. I like the move. As much as Stanton is a stud, I think I'd rather have the younger and cheaper Ozuna (who still hit 37 bombs with a .924 OPS).

Yeah, Ozuna is amazing. Bummed the Giants' farm is so thin they couldn't get him - he's exactly perfect for what the Giants need.

[tarcone]

Im hearing Piscotty to the As

Cards OF is clogged. Like 10 deep. They are not done by a long shot.

[Arles]

I'm really worried that the ball will change again and the HR numbers will drop league wide. I wouldn't want to commit much money to guys that had career years in 2017.
Yeah, but Ozuna hit .312 last year as well and plays great defense - so he's not just power. At an arbitration deal of around $10 mil for next year (and then under control for 19 as well), it seems like a pretty solid move. If he does really well next season, they can try to extend him. Worst case, he comes off the books after 19.

[JPhillips]

Yeah, I was speaking more generally. Some people are going to cash in this year and the revert back to 2016 stats and look like busts.

[tarcone]

Im surprised they would go away from a juiced ball. MLB is always talking about getting fans and keeping them. I know they realize scoring and home runs attracts the average fan.
Why would they go away from that?

[JPhillips]

They might not. The problem is that it's an unknown as to how juiced the ball will be. It makes things very unpredictable.

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, looks like for a package involving Sandy Alcantara and some lesser prospects. I like the move. As much as Stanton is a stud, I think I'd rather have the younger and cheaper Ozuna (who still hit 37 bombs with a .924 OPS).

I like it! Stanton was a ton of $$$$$ so I hope we are not done. We need a closer badly and probably another SP at the very least.

[Arles]

Cards just traded Piscotty to the A's for SS Yairo Munoz and 2B Max Schrock. Munoz hit hit .300/.330/.464 in a season spent at Class AA and Class AAA. He hit 13 home runs this past year, drove in 68 runs, and played 112 games. MiLB.com ranked him the 13th-best prospect in the Oakland A's organization.

Seems like a solid move. Piscotty was going to be a bench player with a history of injuries (and a new $33 mil contract). I'd rather use his money on an infielder like Evan Longoria.

[MizzouRah]

Cards just traded Piscotty to the A's for SS Yairo Munoz and 2B Max Schrock. Munoz hit hit .300/.330/.464 in a season spent at Class AA and Class AAA. He hit 13 home runs this past year, drove in 68 runs, and played 112 games. MiLB.com ranked him the 13th-best prospect in the Oakland A's organization.

Seems like a solid move. Piscotty was going to be a bench player with a history of injuries (and a new $33 mil contract). I'd rather use his money on an infielder like Evan Longoria.

Totally agree.

Ozuna - Fowler - Pham (looking like a good OF there)

[Arles]

If we can end up pulling off Grichek, C Kelly and some prospects for one of Archer/Colome and Longoria - I will be thrilled.

[jbergey22]

These Marlins trades are quite comical. I feel bad for the city of Miami right now.

They have not managed to get a single top 100 prospect in any of these trades. Seems like they were just rushing to get rid of players. Had they taken their time I would think they could have gotten a better ROI.

[stevew]

I think the Yanks will probably pull off a Josh Harrison/ Gerrit Cole combo. The pirates would probably like to have Clint Frazier and then could flip Cutch somewhere for a few more kids.

[BYU 14]

I think the Yanks will probably pull off a Josh Harrison/ Gerrit Cole combo. The pirates would probably like to have Clint Frazier and then could flip Cutch somewhere for a few more kids.

I like Frazier, but that trade makes some sense, though the Yanks have two solid IF prospects that may be ready to step in. Of course here they don't bother to try and sign Todd Frazier to open up room for Gleyber as the utility guy, or outright starter at 3B.

[tarcone]

If we can end up pulling off Grichek, C Kelly and some prospects for one of Archer/Colome and Longoria - I will be thrilled.

I doubt we trade Kelly. He is the heir apparent. And with Matheny as manager, he will stay. Maybe Yadi to 1st?

Im hoping for 2 more big bats. Longoria and Machado?

Cards have an offer on the table for Machado. Hope its a good one.

[tarcone]

Piscottys mom just diagnosed with ALS. She is in the Bay area. Classy move by the Cardinals to get him closer to home.

[stevew]

I like Frazier, but that trade makes some sense, though the Yanks have two solid IF prospects that may be ready to step in. Of course here they don't bother to try and sign Todd Frazier to open up room for Gleyber as the utility guy, or outright starter at 3B.

They could deal Andujar and Clint Frazier and a pitcher prospect for Cole/Harrison and have Gleyber for second with Torryes and Wade also around. Harrison could play 3rd or second or just play 3-4 positions. He's cheaper than Todd Frazier and not signed as long.(Frazier will probably require 3-4 years)

[General Mike]

Ready to abandon my Mets fandom. Might as well just jump on the Yankees bandwagon. My dad was a lifelong fan, and I go to enough AA Yankee games.

[BYU 14]

They could deal Andujar and Clint Frazier and a pitcher prospect for Cole/Harrison and have Gleyber for second with Torryes and Wade also around. Harrison could play 3rd or second or just play 3-4 positions. He's cheaper than Todd Frazier and not signed as long.

That would be a pretty solid trade as well. Lose some power, but Stanton more than makes up for that and I think it makes the Yankees much better defensively.

[miami_fan]

These Marlins trades are quite comical. I feel bad for the city of Miami right now.

They have not managed to get a single top 100 prospect in any of these trades. Seems like they were just rushing to get rid of players. Had they taken their time I would think they could have gotten a better ROI.

They have debt payments coming due soon. They have to get these assets off the books in order to make payroll.

[jbergey22]

They have debt payments coming due soon. They have to get these assets off the books in order to make payroll.

Call me puzzled but very little of this makes much sense to me. Why did the Marlins ever think they could afford that outrageous contract in the 1st place? Why did the new owners negotiate a deal in which the balance sheet was upside down and forced them into dealing assets or risk defaulting on payments so soon?

I mean Forbes values the Marlins at 940 million and they sold for 1.2 billion. In all probability the franchise will be worth 10 times that in 20 years but this franchise is being set back 5-10 years with all of these dealings. Will new ownership even want to deal with this headache for 5 more years?

[miami_fan]

Call me puzzled but very little of this makes much sense to me. Why did the Marlins ever think they could afford that outrageous contract in the 1st place? Why did the new owners negotiate a deal in which the balance sheet was upside down and forced them into dealing assets or risk defaulting on payments so soon?

I mean Forbes values the Marlins at 940 million and they sold for 1.2 billion. In all probability the franchise will be worth 10 times that in 20 years but this franchise is being set back 5-10 years with all of these dealings. Will new ownership even want to deal with this headache for 5 more years?

Why did the Marlins ever think they could afford that outrageous contract in the 1st place?

Loria never thought he could afford that contract. Loria also knew he would never have to pay out that contract either. He had to sign Stanton to that contract though. The Loria group said for years that the reason they could not spend money on the team was the horrible stadium deal. The stadium was also given as the reason no one would go to the games. The promise was that with a new stadium, the Marlins would increase payroll. The Stanton contract did just that.

Why did the new owners negotiate a deal in which the balance sheet was upside down and forced them into dealing assets or risk defaulting on payments so soon?

Good question and one that I would love to hear a non-nefarious answer to.

One of the local sports guys did a breakdown on what Loria put in and what he got out of owning the Marlins. Here is a quick breakdown:

Loria bought the Marlins for $158 million – a deal that cost him zero out of pocket.Loria got an interest-free loan of $38 million from Major League Baseball. That was after the league bought his Expos for $120 million.

The Marlins that Loria inherited won a World Series. However, he broke up the team, saying he would lose money unless he got a new stadium.

Finally in 2012, he got a new ballpark. Local governments paid for most of it with bonds that resemble a fat mortgage – $2.4 billion covered by taxpayers over 40 years.

The Marlins promise to kick in $125 million, a sum that was more than covered by revenue sharing payments from richer big league teams.

Loria then spent big to get players, but did quick about face and again gutted payroll. When it was revealed the team was actually turning a profit, Loria became local enemy number one.

So now, along comes Derek Jeter, the retired baseball legend with the golden reputation. He and former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush have agreed to buy the Marlins for $1.3 billion. The total is a bit more than what the team may be worth.They will take on a $112 million payroll that will leap because of back-loaded player contracts.

Now you would think that after this, MLB would make sure that whoever bought the team actually had the funding to back the team and had a plan to put competent people in charge of operation. The new Marlins owners had to take out a loan in order to meet the purchase price. Derek Jeter is in his first six weeks running the baseball and business operations along with Mike Hill who was a part of the last administration.

[MrBug708]

They didn't care about Frank McCourt buying the team, they just didn't let him gut the team like he wanted to.

[Arles]

I don't know - 35% of their yearly salaries were in Dee Gordon and Stanton. Is that really a great move for a team? Gordon had suspension and injury issues while Stanton is coming off his best year and probably will regress a bit (never hit over 37 HR in his career before 2017). I don't think it's a terrible idea to move those contracts to get some flexibility for the future. This team isn't winning anything in the next 2-3 years - so why pay two guys inching closer to 30 elite money for their position? The one who is a little more questionable is Ozuna as he is still under control for between 10 and 16 mil via arb for two seasons. But, maybe they were scared he would walk and like Alcantara and Sierra as prospects. Either way, I can see the logic.

This isn't unlike what Houston did when it sold off Roy Oswalt, Hunter Pence, Michael Bourn, Brett Myers, Carlos Lee and JA Happ over a couple seasons to reset. They key will be how Miami drafts and selects prospects for these trades. Winning 70-75 games with Stanton and some other vets isn't the best way to rebuild.

Finally, the reason they couldn't get much return for Stanton was because of the no-trade and the backloaded contract. Stanton would only go to the Astros, Cubs, Dodgers and Yankees. Had he agreed to go to St. Louis or San Fran, they could have gotten a higher return. Even the Dodgers were offering more prospects, but they didn't want to take back as much of the contract - so the Yankees ended up as the only real suitor.

[miami_fan]

Trading the players is not the issue. I don't think anyone would aggressively argue that a rebuild is the right move for the Marlins especially given their woeful farm system. What's the rush, though? Is this the best deal they were ever going to get for Stanton? Ozuna? They had the option of keeping them until they got the deal they wanted. Of the players you mentioned the Astros traded, none of those players were traded in December. All were in season trades. The trades the Marlins made have a desperation to them that should not be there for a team who is supposedly taking the long approach. These were salary dumps.

The key is going to be the drafting and selecting of prospects. According to Jeter, he has someone to do that job. That would be Mike Hill, the guy who has put together the current putrid farm system. Forgive Marlins fans for not believing Hill's abilities in this area.

As far as the return for Stanton, there were reports that the first time Jeter talked to Stanton or his reps was when he demanded that Stanton accept the trade to the Giants or be stuck on a team that consisted of him and a bunch of scrubs. Probably not a good way to build a relationship given you need Stanton's approval to complete any trade.

It is still early so things can improve. However, the new ownership was supposed the opposite of the Loria/Samson regime. The new ownership has come in and been pretty much more of the same.

[JPhillips]

With Stanton, they may not be saving any money. Between the salary for Castro and the money they are kicking in, the trade is potentially revenue neutral up to the opt-out.

[stevew]

CC back to the Yanks on 1/10m. He's got 230ish wins. Any chance he makes the HOF with 3 more seasons and 30 more wins?

[Atocep]

CC back to the Yanks on 1/10m. He's got 230ish wins. Any chance he makes the HOF with 3 more seasons and 30 more wins?

Well it appears the veteran's committee will vote anyone in so one way or another he probably gets in.

In all seriousness, it would have to be 3 seasons more like '16-'17 rather than 3 seasons like '13'-'15 to have a chance.

[RainMaker]

Cishek to the Cubs for 2 years which seems to mean Wade Davis is not coming back.

[MrBug708]

Kemp to the Dodgers

[JonInMiddleGA]

Kemp to the Dodgers

With Gonzalez being DFA'ed by Atlanta immediately upon receipt.

[Chief Rum]

With Gonzalez being DFA'ed by Atlanta immediately upon receipt.

Kemp is reportedly going to be DFA'd as well.

[tarcone]

Im hearing a deal is being talked about between the Cards and Rays

Weaver, Flaherty, Grichuk and another player

For

Longoria, Archer, Cologne

[MizzouRah]

Im hearing a deal is being talked about between the Cards and Rays

Weaver, Flaherty, Grichuk and another player

For

Longoria, Archer, Cologne

OMG I would take that in a heartbeat!

[Shkspr]

I assume that trade idea is coming from someone in St. Louis.

[MrBug708]

Ya, I can't imagine something like that going down outside of fantasy baseball

[MrBug708]

Longoria to the Giants

[kingfc22]

Longoria to the Giants

Interesting...Curious to see which CF they land now that Span is gone.

Still going to need a lot more firepower to compete in the NL.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Still going to need a lot more firepower to compete in the NL.

Yeah, the #20something third baseman in the majors last year is unlikely to be a difference maker honestly.

[Chief Rum]

Yeah, the #20something third baseman in the majors last year is unlikely to be a difference maker honestly.

He probably isn't good enough to make a difference but not because he's bad but because the Giants need so much. He's at worst Top 15, and arguably a top ten at 3B.

[CrescentMoonie]

Depending on the version of WAR, he's barely been top 10 in recent years and wasn't by either version last year. He's 32 and seems to clearly be on the downside.

The All-Overrated MLB Team: Eric Hosmer, Evan Longoria, Albert Pujols lead the way - CBSSports.com (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/the-all-overrated-mlb-team-eric-hosmer-evan-longoria-albert-pujols-lead-the-way/)

[Chief Rum]

Depending on the version of WAR, he's barely been top 10 in recent years and wasn't by either version last year. He's 32 and seems to clearly be on the downside.

The All-Overrated MLB Team: Eric Hosmer, Evan Longoria, Albert Pujols lead the way - CBSSports.com (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/the-all-overrated-mlb-team-eric-hosmer-evan-longoria-albert-pujols-lead-the-way/)

"Barely" is still top ten (plus, I said that's arguable). He's definitely better than the standard Jon applied to him and within the Top 15 I applied to him, even last year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

"Barely" is still top ten (plus, I said that's arguable). He's definitely better than the standard Jon applied to him and within the Top 15 I applied to him, even last year.

My reference was from the upper portion of one of several summaries of the trade I'd seen earlier in the day, which noted that Longoria was either 22nd or 23rd in some third baseman metric last year (hence me going with 20something in my post). My guess is that it was probably an oWAR calculation, since at this point his value lies in his defense.

As one of the ESPN articles summed it up, he's a superstar name but no longer a superstar player.

[tarcone]

I saw something that said that the Giants are still the 27th ranked team based on roster and they could have the highest payroll in baseball.

[BishopMVP]

My reference was from the upper portion of one of several summaries of the trade I'd seen earlier in the day, which noted that Longoria was either 22nd or 23rd in some third baseman metric last year (hence me going with 20something in my post). My guess is that it was probably an oWAR calculation, since at this point his value lies in his defense.

As one of the ESPN articles summed it up, he's a superstar name but no longer a superstar player.I think that's fair to say, though fangraphs had him at 15th & his 2016 was much better, so I'm comfortable still saying he's above-average. But it's also fair to say that he's going to be a huge upgrade for the Giants because they were #32 by far in 3B production, at -1.8 fWAR.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, kinda saw this coming after yesterday's signing.

Pittsburgh Pirates trade RHP Gerrit Cole to Houston Astros (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22085338/pittsburgh-pirates-trade-rhp-gerrit-cole-houston-astros)

[stevew]

Horrible return. No defending the Pirates front office. Basically 2 relievers and a utility guy. May as well kept him til the deadline

[cartman]

Pirates are going full rebuild. They traded McCutchen to the Giants.

[stevew]

You think we got jobbed on Cole? Nah, watch this mothafuckas!

[PilotMan]

Pirates are going full rebuild. They traded McCutchen to the Giants.


offs, now I have to hate him. That sucks for me. I always hoped he show up in blue.

[JPhillips]

With all the teams looking to stay under the penalty, there are going to be some good free agent bargains. I'd love the Reds to throw some of that 50 million windfall into a couple of free agents.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I've gotta say, with what little they had to work with, the front office for the Giants have done a pretty great job of improving the team without blowing up the budget or the farm system.

[Hammer755]

I've gotta say, with what little they had to work with, the front office for the Giants have done a pretty great job of improving the team without blowing up the budget or the farm system.

Longoria & McCutchen are upgrades for the Giants to be sure, but adding a couple of clearly-regressing players feels a bit like rearranging the deck chairs.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I believe both are projected for a combined 6 wins this season, and are replacing players who had literally negative WAR last year. They are legit upgrades, even if the players are not what they once were.

[SackAttack]

I believe both are projected for a combined 6 wins this season, and are replacing players who had literally negative WAR last year. They are legit upgrades, even if the players are not what they once were.

So...70 wins incoming?

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'm not saying they're world beaters, but literally (real literally, not stupid internet chicanery literally) every single player on the team underperformed their ZiPs projections last year, most significantly so. Plus they were missing their best SP for half the season. There's reason to believe all of the following things:
The talent on the team is (significantly) better than their record last season would indicate.
There have been significant improvements to multiple positions over the players that you would not expect to outperform 2017's output.
The best pitcher on the team is unlikely to have another multiple month injury.
With the money that came back in the McCutchen deal, the Giants could still go out and get a defense-first CF and put Cutch in LF.

Currently, as constructed, the Giants project 22.9 WAR out of their position players, compared to 14 last year. If they simply play as expected, that's 9 extra wins. That puts them firmly in the mid-to-high 70's for win total*, not including any improvement out of the pitching staff or bench. With any kind of breakout performance, be it by a rookie (Stephen Duggar, CF prospect?), a resurgent Johnny Cueto, a full season of Madison Bumgarner, or simply better outfield defense helping keep Samardzija's flyballs outs rather than hits, they're in the conversation for a playoff spot.

Do I believe all that is going to happen? Absolutely not. But the front office is doing everything they can to take one last stab at this thing before they really need to blow it all up. And when your other option is to trade away players that are good-not-great, old, or coming off injury plagued years, you're not going to get much return for them anyway.

I think they've done the absolute best they could with the hand they had. Considering they dealt that hand to themselves...maybe there's cause for worry. But they're trying.


*Fudging a little here by using their Pythagorean Record because holy shit 2017 was awful. Also, Grant Brisbee gets credit for most of the work on those WAR numbers.

[Chief Rum]

I think the NL has too many top end teams for the Giants to nab a playoff spot but I agree they aren't as bad as they were last year, and they do have more talent now. They'll be in it into September unless injuries take a toll again.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Eh, when you look at it you've got three tiers:

1. Top: Dodgers, Cubs, Nationals
2. Tweener: Cardinals
3. Wild Card Contenders: Mets, Diamondbacks, Rockies, Brewers, Phillies (?)

I think the Cardinals are obviously better than the rest of the pack, but also a step below the crazy talent level of the top three. The Pirates would have been in that wild card contender tier, but they're obviously punting.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to see the Giants challenging that bottom tier.

[AENeuman]

Yep, agree with most here. Best thing is they are not tied down to too many awful contracts after next year. This was a surprising good attempt at "going for one last shot" without giving up (limited) prospects and over signing. ]

Or, in other words, they did a great job of making the season ticket holders hopeful. Which for a nearly 100 loss team is pretty admirable.

But playoffs? nope

[BishopMVP]

Yep, agree with most here. Best thing is they are not tied down to too many awful contracts after next year. This was a surprising good attempt at "going for one last shot" without giving up (limited) prospects and over signing. ]

Or, in other words, they did a great job of making the season ticket holders hopeful. Which for a nearly 100 loss team is pretty admirable.

But playoffs? nopeThere's always a team that overperforms. Last year it was the Diamondbacks, maybe it'll be the Giants this year. I mean, they've overperformed with an aging roster and heroic Bumgarner playoff performances before.

[dubb93]

I’m a little concerned that we could be heading for a nasty work stoppage after 2021 if things don’t correct themselves a bit. Too many teams are unwilling to spend and the big spenders now are wanting to stay under the luxury threshold due to harsh penalties. The situation has resulted in too many above average to good players without work.

Something will either need to give or I think it gets ugly.

[Atocep]

The only way to really correct it is to reduce the years of club control. Every front office is analytics based in some way now and they're just not willing to spend big money on average to above average talent that's likely headed into their decline years. You just don't see guys hitting free agency in their prime very often any more.

[dubb93]

The only way to really correct it is to reduce the years of club control. Every front office is analytics based in some way now and they're just not willing to spend big money on average to above average talent that's likely headed into their decline years. You just don't see guys hitting free agency in their prime very often any more.

Which is exactly what I was thinking. I think we have a major fight over player control ahead of us.

[Logan]

You just don't see guys hitting free agency in their prime very often any more.

Because players would rather sacrifice those first couple of years of free agency so they are only making about 40% of their actual worth instead of maybe 10% in some of those early years.

Bloodbath coming. What would teams want in return for losing a couple years of dirt cheap labor? Some kind of max salary? Or do you take the opposite approach...blow up the pay structure in those early years but actually allow teams to control players longer (at a higher salary)?

[lungs]

Brewers just gave up a haul for Christian Yelich.

[JPhillips]

And got Lorenzo Cain for 5/80

Damn

[Vince, Pt. II]

The Brewers just got a helluva lot better, nice day for them.

[lungs]

I'm hearing Domingo Santana will be on the move for some pitching to top things off.

[JeeberD]

It's frustrating to think that we gave him and Phillips up for fucking Fiers and Gomez. At least Fiers did nicely when the entire rotation was injured in July, and threw that no hitter in 2015. But Gomez...

[Chief Rum]

I think it worked out for you just fine.

[lungs]

It's frustrating to think that we gave him and Phillips up for fucking Fiers and Gomez. At least Fiers did nicely when the entire rotation was injured in July, and threw that no hitter in 2015. But Gomez...

Don't forget Josh Hader :)

[JeeberD]

I think it worked out for you just fine.

One isn't enough!

Don't forget Josh Hader :)

Dammit...yeah, Hader, too. You're trying to be Astros 2.0, with Villar and Nottingham on the club, too.

[lungs]

Dammit...yeah, Hader, too. You're trying to be Astros 2.0, with Villar and Nottingham on the club, too.

Conspiracy theory: Milwaukee GM David Stearns worked for the Astros when the Gomez/Fiers deal went down.

[Logan]

Chief Wahoo logo will be gone for the 2019 season. So be sure to buy up all that racist shit already in stock before it's gone forever!

[MrBug708]

Is there going to be a new logo? Seems like the name Indians should be gone as well?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is there going to be a new logo? Seems like the name Indians should be gone as well?

Could go with a lovely snowflake, would be fitting.

[larrymcg421]

Are the snowflakes the ones bothered by racist imagery or the ones whose lives will be so ruined by the removal of racist imagery? Help me out here.

[Logan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I never had a particularly strong Chief Wahoo take, but this picture always felt like the argument-ender <a href="https://t.co/P1KpiaVNQm">pic.twitter.com/P1KpiaVNQm</a></p>&mdash; Ben Axelrod (@BenAxelrod) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenAxelrod/status/958045192623480832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 29, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Neuqua]

I wonder how long until the Blackhawks make a change.

[BYU 14]

Actually kind of would be cool to bring back the Spiders nickname.

Of all the mascots in sports that fall into ethnic territory, Indians is really not that offensive. It was never really used in a derogatory fashion in society like Redskins, or even Chief(s) back in the day. I can see how Native Americans would get upset with the logo though, since it is a caricature.

In the end though, not for me to decide what should or should not offend someone who has a different perspective than me.

[stevew]

They should definitely change their name to the IndianSpiders and have a racist sambo faced arachnid as their logo.

[JeeberD]

The Rangers are going for it all! They just signed Bartolo Colon to a (minor league) contract!

[molson]

I'm enjoying Scott Boras and Tony Clark melting down over teams learning not to offer stupid contracts in free agency.

Players have always tried to protect the veteran free agent at the expense of younger players, and that's kind of blown up in their face now that owners are figuring out not to pay for past performance. Younger players are underpaid, but the CBA doesn't really allow them to be paid what they're worth.

[Atocep]

I'm enjoying Scott Boras and Tony Clark melting down over teams learning not to offer stupid contracts in free agency.

Players have always tried to protect the veteran free agent at the expense of younger players, and that's kind of blown up in their face now that owners are figuring out not to pay for past performance. Younger players are underpaid, but the CBA doesn't really allow them to be paid what they're worth.

Boras hasn't adapted the modern front office. Trying sell statistical analysts on the virtues of Eric Hosmer's leadership is a waste of time. 15 years ago he would have gotten whatever Boras asked for. This year he's probably back the Royals at a reasonable price.

[Toddzilla]

Cubs finally light up the hot stove and sign Yu Darvish.

6-years, $126 mil, can escalate to $150 with incentives, Darvish has an opt-out after 2 years.

[claphamsa]

i truly deeply hate optouts, sign or dont, dont be wishy washy!

[PilotMan]

Cubs finally light up the hot stove and sign Yu Darvish.

6-years, $126 mil, can escalate to $150 with incentives, Darvish has an opt-out after 2 years.

And Dodger fans let out a collective sigh of relief. I don't think I'll ever forget and that stink will never go.

[Chief Rum]

And Dodger fans let out a collective sigh of relief. I don't think I'll ever forget and that stink will never go.

Rob Parker has been sitting in on the lunch time radio show on the Dodgers local station and has been beating the drum for Darvish, and telling Dodger fans they are massively overreacting. He puts the Series loss on Kershaw.

I'm an Angels fan, so I don't have a real dog in the fight. I think Parker is a jackass and completely agree with you. One terrible outing in the Series is disheartening but not grounds for the negativity Yu has gotten. Two absolutely terrible outings? Including Game 7? Sorry, that's way beyond terrible. Dodgers are entirely right to not risk throwing such a big contract at a guy who did precisely the worst he could have done when they needed him the most.

I will say, though, that Kershaw also has to find some sack in the playoffs. If Darvish wasn't around, he would be getting a lot more sideways glances. The supposed GOAT shouldn't stop being that when the calendar rolls to October.

[dubb93]

I don't understand how the Dodgers coaching staff never realized he was tipping his pitches. I would expect my coaching staff to be on top of that kind of stuff. Before he was tipping those pitches he had two pretty good playoff starts. Seems like a pretty club friendly contract to me as well, especially if Darvish opts out after two seasons. 21 million per is below the level he has produced in the past.

[PilotMan]

Rob Parker has been sitting in on the lunch time radio show on the Dodgers local station and has been beating the drum for Darvish, and telling Dodger fans they are massively overreacting. He puts the Series loss on Kershaw.

I'm an Angels fan, so I don't have a real dog in the fight. I think Parker is a jackass and completely agree with you. One terrible outing in the Series is disheartening but not grounds for the negativity Yu has gotten. Two absolutely terrible outings? Including Game 7? Sorry, that's way beyond terrible. Dodgers are entirely right to not risk throwing such a big contract at a guy who did precisely the worst he could have done when they needed him the most.

I will say, though, that Kershaw also has to find some sack in the playoffs. If Darvish wasn't around, he would be getting a lot more sideways glances. The supposed GOAT shouldn't stop being that when the calendar rolls to October.

Agree with you 100%

I don't understand how the Dodgers coaching staff never realized he was tipping his pitches. I would expect my coaching staff to be on top of that kind of stuff. Before he was tipping those pitches he had two pretty good playoff starts. Seems like a pretty club friendly contract to me as well, especially if Darvish opts out after two seasons. 21 million per is below the level he has produced in the past.

The funny thing is the staff has brought other pitchers in and done this exact thing when they were tipping. So you're right. Seems odd, especially how he had been dominating late and in the playoffs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Esteban Loaiza, former MLB pitcher, arrested with over 20 kilograms of drugs (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22408066/esteban-loaiza-former-mlb-pitcher-arrested-20-kilograms-drugs)

[miami_fan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mr. Loria did not meet the terms of the contract with Miami-Dade County and the City of Miami. He owes this community five percent of the profits from the $1.2 billion sale of the Miami Marlins. We will see Mr. Loria in court.</p>&mdash; Carlos A. Gimenez (@MayorGimenez) <a href="https://twitter.com/MayorGimenez/status/964692595623555072?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Atocep]

So Loria claims he took a loss on the sale of a team he acquired for $158 million and sold for $1.2 billion.

[jbergey22]

Its so hard for a billionaire just to give up 60 million to a community that made him a billionaire in the first place. Greedy POS. Sounds like he actually only paid 30 million to purchase the Marlins and not the 158 million as reported. Some interesting accounting to claim a loss on that sale.

[BishopMVP]

I hate his overall team building approach, but good on Dave Dombrowski for holding the line and getting JD Martinez at 5/$110m. Front loaded, and with opt outs after 2 years, but even if it's just a 2/$50m deal that means he played well, and if things do go wrong it's down to 3/$60m instead of some long term or $30m+ per year albatross.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So Loria claims he took a loss on the sale of a team he acquired for $158 million and sold for $1.2 billion.

The devil is in the details. Miami negotiated for 5% of "net profit", not "gross profit", meaning their 5% is based on the transaction minus certain allowable expenses. The key one being "less the value of the team", which wipes out most of the perceived "profit". I'm thinking the city didn't exactly have the sharpest tools in the shed negotiating this thing.

I think this article actually does a pretty good job of showing how Loria's claims might be plausible (depending upon the eventual valuation decision) under the terms of the agreement

How can Loria claim no profits from $1.2 billion Marlins sale? | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article198173034.html)

[Logan]

A city being taken to the woodshed in a negotiation with a franchise owner?! No way.

[JPhillips]

Jonathan Martin taken into custody and LA school locked down after threatening Instagram post.

https://deadspin.com/jonathan-martin-taken-into-custody-after-threatening-in-1823275206

[BishopMVP]

I will never understand things like this Jon Lester of Chicago Cubs trying 'Jordan-to-Pippen bounce' in unorthodox attempt to solve throwing problem (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22653874/jon-lester-chicago-cubs-trying-jordan-pippen-bounce-unorthodox-attempt-solve-throwing-problem)

[kingfc22]

Fun going into the season without your #1 and #3 starters...

[albionmoonlight]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: Albert Belle arrested in Scottsdale during a spring training game.<br><br>2 counts of indecent exposure <br>1 count of DUI (using liquor, drugs or vapors)<br>1 count of Extreme DUI (BAC of .08 or more) <a href="https://t.co/3zMgRczQi3">pic.twitter.com/3zMgRczQi3</a></p>&mdash; Matt Rodewald FOX 10 (@Matt_Fox10) <a href="https://twitter.com/Matt_Fox10/status/978122869233217537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 26, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[albionmoonlight]

Those pictures of "athlete after he's retired and developed a substance abuse problem" never cease to surprise me (in a sad way).

[panerd]

.08 is an extreme DUI? Believe me once I grew up I am definitely a designated driver/stay at a hotel/don't drink at all guy but I thought a .08 was pretty much right over the legal limit. Also is a vapor just an E-cigarette?

I'm putting way too much thought into this Belle press release!

[JonInMiddleGA]

.08 is an extreme DUI? Believe me once I grew up I am definitely a designated driver/stay at a hotel/don't drink at all guy but I thought a .08 was pretty much right over the legal limit.

Unless there's been a change recently that Google isn't picking up, I think there's an error in that tweet.

What I'm finding for Arizona law is
Standard DUI .08 - .14
Extreme DUI .15 - .18
Super Extreme .20 +

[Arles]

Yeah, .15 is the extreme DUI mark in AZ. I'm guessing there's an error with that tweet.

On a related note, when did Albert Belle turn into Fred Sanford?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZL9j4iUMAEIPeQ.jpg

[molson]

What I'm finding for Arizona law is
Standard DUI .08 - .14
Extreme DUI .15 - .18
Super Extreme .20 +

I like this better that the "excessive" designation we use in my state.

But over a .30 should be Double Secret Super Extreme DUI.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But over a .30 should be Double Secret Super Extreme DUI.

I don't EVEN wanna know what sort of secret handshake goes with that :lol:

[Logan]

Yeah, .15 is the extreme DUI mark in AZ. I'm guessing there's an error with that tweet.

On a related note, when did Albert Belle turn into Fred Sanford?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZL9j4iUMAEIPeQ.jpg

Looks like a guy who hit the Vina a little too hard.

[Ramzavail]

+1

[MrBug708]

Marlins couldn't wait one pitch before falling behind

[cuervo72]

Looks like a guy who hit the Vina a little too hard.

Nice.

[Shkspr]

Marlins couldn't wait one pitch before falling behind

On a pace to allow 1700 runs this year.

[korme]

Since the Reds are postponed, I'm casually watching Angels / A's strictly because of the Ohtani hype. Quickly noticed that Scioscia has Trout batting 2nd. WTF? An old, veteran manager embracing sabermetric lineup strategies? WHOA!!! Tons of respect.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Since the Reds are postponed, I'm casually watching Angels / A's strictly because of the Ohtani hype. Quickly noticed that Scioscia has Trout batting 2nd. WTF? An old, veteran manager embracing sabermetric lineup strategies? WHOA!!! Tons of respect.

umm ... he hit 2nd in the order more frequently than any other spot last year
(71 games there, vs 41 in the third spot, and 2 at leadoff).

2016 was actually the unusual one, hitting 3rd more than 2nd.

Career, 2nd is his most frequently used spot (422 of his 925 games played)

edit to add: It has also produced a lower OPS, lower tOPS, lower BA, and lower OBP than the 294 games where he's hit 3rd.

[korme]

umm ... he hit 2nd in the order more frequently than any other spot last year
(71 games there, vs 41 in the third spot, and 2 at leadoff).

2016 was actually the unusual one, hitting 3rd more than 2nd.

Career, 2nd is his most frequently used spot (422 of his 925 games played)

edit to add: It has also produced a lower OPS, lower tOPS, lower BA, and lower OBP than the 294 games where he's hit 3rd.

That's cool. I don't think I've checked in on Angels game or lineup or anything of that sort in years. Just happened to notice today. I apologize if I sounded like I thought Scioscia was breaking new ground, I just assumed Trout batted in the traditional 3 hole.

And those circumstantial numbers are also very interesting, which is why small sample sizes are fun.

[Buccaneer]

That's cool. I don't think I've checked in on Angels game or lineup or anything of that sort in years. Just happened to notice today. I apologize if I sounded like I thought Scioscia was breaking new ground, I just assumed Trout batted in the traditional 3 hole.

And those circumstantial numbers are also very interesting, which is why small sample sizes are fun.

You're cool, korme. I still wish for the days when the Reds were the traditional opening game before anyone else. I still have my daily journals/logs/scrapbook from the 1975 and 1976 seasons!

[PilotMan]

{melodramatic}That's it. LA's season is over! Can't win with Kershaw, at home in the opener. We are done!!!{/melodramatic}

[tarcone]

Cardinals sign Greg Holland to a 1 year $14 million contract.

Shores up an area of need. And a great contract to boot.

[MizzouRah]

Cardinals sign Greg Holland to a 1 year $14 million contract.

Shores up an area of need. And a great contract to boot.

Finally!!!

[JPhillips]

Winker leading off and Hamilton batting ninth.

It's an Easter Miracle!

[MrBug708]

Is Joe Panik the new Kevin Elster?

[JonInMiddleGA]

And those circumstantial numbers are also very interesting, which is why small sample sizes are fun.

That actually kind of brought to mind the question of "what constitutes small sample size" when I saw it.

I mean, we're talking about a fair chunk of his career ABs overall at this point, and he's not exactly a newcomer now. Is it still 'small sample size" or is it enough to be an actual thing?

I don't know that I think he necessarily approaches the plate differently but perhaps the situations he comes up in, the approach pitchers take with him (i.e. hitting 3rd he would have a great chance, by whatever margin, to have runners on base ahead of him), so on & so forth. Maybe hitting him third would actually make sense ... depending upon the performance of whatever #3 hitter appears when he bats second of course.

[AENeuman]

Is Joe Panik the new Kevin Elster?

Wo, great call back! That fucking opening day in 2000...

[Vince, Pt. II]

I am so very ok with how this season's first two games have played out.

[PilotMan]

{melodramatic}That's it. LA's season is over! Can't win with Kershaw, at home in the opener. We are done!!!{/melodramatic}

Back to back 1-0 losses at home?

sheesh. Hard to believe that the NLCS Champs are scoreless through 18.

[Shkspr]

Hard to believe that the NLCS Champs are scoreless through 18.

Luckily, the Cubs are scoreless in their last 14.

[AENeuman]

Back to back 1-0 losses at home?

sheesh. Hard to believe that the NLCS Champs are scoreless through 18.

Well...technically they are scoreless through their last 20 innings. :D


Sorry, gotta get it in now before reality sets in.

[korme]

That actually kind of brought to mind the question of "what constitutes small sample size" when I saw it.

I mean, we're talking about a fair chunk of his career ABs overall at this point, and he's not exactly a newcomer now. Is it still 'small sample size" or is it enough to be an actual thing?


Great question

[BishopMVP]

Minnesota Twins upset Chance Sisco of Baltimore Orioles bunted vs. shift in 9th (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23001797/minnesota-twins-upset-chance-sisco-baltimore-orioles-bunted-vs-shift-9th)

Laughable outrage by the Twins. If you think a guy shouldn't bunt, maybe you shouldn't shift.

[Logan]

Bunch of whiners.

[MrBug708]

O's playing baseball the wrong way

[rjolley]

Minnesota Twins upset Chance Sisco of Baltimore Orioles bunted vs. shift in 9th (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23001797/minnesota-twins-upset-chance-sisco-baltimore-orioles-bunted-vs-shift-9th)

Laughable outrage by the Twins. If you think a guy shouldn't bunt, maybe you shouldn't shift.

What unwritten rule was violated here? I know there's one about bunting during a no hitter, but if they're working to get baserunners, why wouldn't he take advantage of the shift to help do just that?

[larrymcg421]

That stuff irritates me to no end. I don't care if it's 1 run, 5 runs, or 30 runs, a perfect game or no hitter, if bunting increases your chances of getting on base, then you should absolutely do so.

Each team is given 27 outs. Not "24 and three more if it's a close game".

[stevew]

The shift is bad for baseball. But it’s legal and so is bunting.

Maybe the Twins will throw at him next game. Baseball once again proving it has the dumbest collection of athletes.

[kingfc22]

Well...technically they are scoreless through their last 20 innings. :D


Sorry, gotta get it in now before reality sets in.

18 innings later...:banghead:

[stevew]

Pirates are the best team in baseball. Lol

[JonInMiddleGA]

What unwritten rule was violated here? I know there's one about bunting during a no hitter, but if they're working to get baserunners, why wouldn't he take advantage of the shift to help do just that?

That's the thing that made no sense to me ... if he's not supposed to go beyond standard effort cause "the game is over" or some such then WTF is there a shift on?

They brought that on themselves & the hitter did exactly the right thing.

[BishopMVP]

What unwritten rule was violated here? I know there's one about bunting during a no hitter, but if they're working to get baserunners, why wouldn't he take advantage of the shift to help do just that?Someone said it was because it was a one hitter...

[RainMaker]

Feel like if you're going to make the effort to shift, a player should make the effort to take advantage of that. What's he supposed to do? Aim it directly at a player on the field so it doesn't break up the precious 1-hitter?

[Atocep]

Someone said it was because it was a one hitter...

LOL

One for the record books.

[jbergey22]

Yeah, Dozier's comments were just silly. There was no reason for him to not bunt there. Hopefully, Molitor says something to him about it.

[korme]

The shift is bad for baseball. But it’s legal and so is bunting.

Maybe the Twins will throw at him next game. Baseball once again proving it has the dumbest collection of athletes.

That's like saying the zone is bad for basketball or football.

[Atocep]

That's like saying the zone is bad for basketball or football.

A zone defense in basketball is mostly used more because of your own personnel limitations in a matchup rather than what the other team does.

There isn't a really good analogy across sports, but I'd actually say it's closer to the reason why there are rules in the NFL for formations. Being able to do it creates a massive advantage.

[Logan]

A zone defense in basketball is mostly used more because of your own personnel limitations in a matchup rather than what the other team does.

There isn't a really good analogy across sports, but I'd actually say it's closer to the reason why there are rules in the NFL for formations. Being able to do it creates a massive advantage.

Being able to do "what" creates a massive advantage? Use a shift?

If that's the case, I fail to see how you can ever describe something as creating a massive advantage when the other team is free to do the exact same thing.

As for your analogy, there aren't rules in the NFL for defensive formations, are there? In an effort to defend, you can do whatever you'd like with your 11 players: put them all on the LOS if you'd like, you can use 6 defensive backs to cover only 5 eligible receivers, you can have 6 guys standing up and rushing the QB, etc.

[Atocep]

Being able to do "what" creates a massive advantage? Use a shift?

If that's the case, I fail to see how you can ever describe something as creating a massive advantage when the other team is free to do the exact same thing.

If everyone can do it therefore it doesn't create an advantage then we have no need for rules at all. Everyone is free to do it.

As for your analogy, there aren't rules in the NFL for defensive formations, are there? In an effort to defend, you can do whatever you'd like with your 11 players: put them all on the LOS if you'd like, you can use 6 defensive backs to cover only 5 eligible receivers, you can have 6 guys standing up and rushing the QB, etc.

My football analogy was for offensive formations.

[Logan]

Now I'm even more confused with what you're trying to argue.

[tarcone]

Getting ready for my season back into a Roto league I was a charter member of the league back in 1988. The guy who started it decided to get out of the old one and start a new one. He got 5 of the original 8 owners back in the fold.
It is NL only, 12 players 5x5. Avg, hrs, rbis, sbs and wins, era, saves, Ks, WHIP. It is an auction where we have %260 for 23 players.

I could use some of your guys local knowledge and get some sleepers, prospects (we have an 8 player reserve draft at the end) and guys that are a must get without breaking the bank.

[Suicane75]

I don't see how anyone could have a problem with the shift. I've got more of a problem with major league players who can't for their lives, beat it. I guess that's what I get for watching the last 4 years of Ryan Howards career.

[MrBug708]

Isn't a shift akin to Hack a Shaw? Giving up easy production knowing your opponent has a hard time beating it?

[Vince, Pt. II]

The Giants are currently 42 innings into their season and have scored three runs. All on Joe Panik solo home runs.

[tarcone]

Sounds like the MLB shouldn't have de-juiced the ball.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I should have complained earlier.

[BishopMVP]

Isn't a shift akin to Hack a Shaq? Giving up easy production knowing your opponent has a hard time beating it?So if we stretch the analogy, this would be the equivalent of complaining of complaining that he was trying too hard if Shaq actually made both free throws? Though I guess complaining if a team down 10 with 10 seconds left made an uncontested layup would be more appropriate.

[BYU 14]

Ohtani with a 3 run shot in his home debut. Was an impressive at bat and he looked much more comfortable than when I went to see him in spring training.

[bhlloy]

So if we stretch the analogy, this would be the equivalent of complaining of complaining that he was trying too hard if Shaq actually made both free throws? Though I guess complaining if a team down 10 with 10 seconds left made an uncontested layup would be more appropriate.

I dunno, is it as uncommon for teams to come back down 7 runs in the ninth as it is a team down 10 with 10 seconds left in basketball? Either way it's fucking stupid and Dozier is a moron.

It's not often you get a guy who completely invalidates his own argument in the exact same sentence, but what is the shift if not a way to be trying really hard to get an opponent out?

[Logan]

Another HR for Ohtani last night. Are the pitchforks away at this point? We cool with allowing people more than a month on a new continent before declaring them complete failures?

[spleen1015]

Another HR for Ohtani last night. Are the pitchforks away at this point? We cool with allowing people more than a month on a new continent before declaring them complete failures?

I want to see 712 more before I think he's legit.

[korme]

Gabe Kapler is managing the Phillies the same way I would in The Show if I got bored and wanted to make things more difficult for myself.

[Logan]

Gabe Kapler is managing the Phillies the same way I would in The Show if I got bored and wanted to make things more difficult for myself.

I don't know if he survives the month. Forgetting all the pitching/bullpen stuff he got destroyed on in the opening series, his explanation for why he played the RF so ridiculously far in yesterday against Amed Rosario was just laughable.

"According to MLB’s Statcast data, Williams was standing 52 feet closer to home plate than the average rightfielder did last season at Citi Field. He was noticeably shallow."

[tarcone]

Did you guys see the bald eagle land on Mariners pitcher James Paxton during the national anthem in Minnesota? Crazy.

[Chief Rum]

Did you guys see the bald eagle land on Mariners pitcher James Paxton during the national anthem in Minnesota? Crazy.

I thought you were joking until I Googled it. Holy cow!

[Vince, Pt. II]

Paxton showed crazy poise throughout that. I can't imagine I would have been anywhere near that stoic.

[BYU 14]

Paxton showed crazy poise throughout that. I can't imagine I would have been anywhere near that stoic.

Hey, if you can stare down Aaron Judge, Manny Machado and Jose Altuve you can handle a bird on your shoulder :)

[Atocep]

The Phillies went on a 20-0 run against the Marlins today.

[Scoobz0202]

Shohei Ohtani is absolutely incredible (at least so far). Live in Ohio and find myself checking when Angels games starts so I can get some Ohtani action in my life.

Perfect game spoiled in the 7th inning. Final stat line 7.0 IP, 12Ks, 1H, 1BB, 0ER.

Oh and he hit 3 HR this week.

[MizzouRah]

Shohei Ohtani is absolutely incredible (at least so far). Live in Ohio and find myself checking when Angels games starts so I can get some Ohtani action in my life.

Perfect game spoiled in the 7th inning. Final stat line 7.0 IP, 12Ks, 1H, 1BB, 0ER.

Oh and he hit 3 HR this week.

What a gifted athlete, incredible!

[Logan]

Obviously it's awesome to see, and since the Angels mean nothing to me I'd be happy to see it dominate both pitching/hitting...but I honestly hope he does turn into Babe Ruth just because of the few talking heads who bashed him before the season even started. Fuck those guys.

[Logan]

Everything will turn around for him but this is still pretty nuts:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Giancarlo Stanton is the first player in the live ball era to have 2 games with 0 hits and 5 strikeouts in the same season.<br><br>It's April 8th. <a href="https://t.co/TBy91mpYcJ">pic.twitter.com/TBy91mpYcJ</a></p>&mdash; ESPN Stats &amp; Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) <a href="https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/983102670251716609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 8, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[JonInMiddleGA]

Music thread? Random thoughts thread? I'm going here, since it probably hits the most interested audience for it.

I'd heard the song a couple weeks ago but will admit that I didn't connect singer/songwriter Brett Myers as being former Phillie Brett Myers.

https://hickhopmusic.com/world-series-pitcher-brett-myers-turns-musician/

[SirFozzie]

Today was a fun day out at the brawl game, Padres/Rockies, Yankees and Red Sox cleared the dugouts twice..

[Logan]

Break up the Mets!

[dawgfan]

Two things on Shohei Ohtani:

Holy shit what a start to his career! It's beyond early, but if can be a productive hitter while also an upper-level pitcher at the MLB level, that's some all-timer kind of stuff and something the game could really use
Fuck you Ohtani for not signing with the Mariners


Also, Edwin Diaz is off to a ridiculous start: 18 batters faced, 12 strikeouts, no hits or walks allowed (two hit batters and a batter reaching on an error are the only blemishes)

[bhlloy]

The expectation curve for Ohtani from being the most hyped international FA ever to a spring training where he looked like an A level player to the first 10 games of the season has to be pretty unique.

Have to figure the league will catch up to him as a hitter at some point and it’s not going to be as smooth sailing for him moving forward, but he’s clearly an absolutely elite athlete and his stuff is filthy. If he stays healthy he has a chance to be a player we haven’t seen ever before.

[JPhillips]

I'm pretty sure this Reds season is going to end with Joey Votto saying, "The Aristocrats!"

[JPhillips]

.470
.627
.538
.722
.521
.919
.154
.498

The OPS for the Reds starting eight today. They are one shitty team right now.

[PilotMan]

LA has given Kersh 5 runs, through 5. Looks like we may break that Dbacks 12 game win streak against us. Sigh.

It's gonna be a long year JPhillips for us Reds fans. I mean, I'm just looking at it like an opportunity to see some youth and 4A players, get some sun at the ballpark and enjoy the atmosphere. If I want to watch competitive baseball I'll go to the Florence Freedom (http://www.florencefreedom.com/) games.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They are one shitty team right now.

And yet, entering the day, there were four clubs with worse (team) OBPs.
(And a fifth that was just a tick ahead of them).

I'm definitely not saying they aren't shitty, just that they aren't alone in being shitty.

edit to add: And, in support of their shittiness, there is no team with a worse ERA than the Reds right now, and none of the other bad hitting teams are in the bottom five there.

[JPhillips]

They'll improve a bit today, but the Reds are almost a fun point higher in team ERA than #29 Seattle.

[stevew]

It is super confusing when you’re barely paying attention to your super surprising team and you don’t even know their closer has changed last names.

[Shkspr]

They'll improve a bit today, but the Reds are almost a fun point higher in team ERA than #29 Seattle.

Admittedly, that point is more fun if you're a fan of the opposing team.

[Scoobz0202]

44 year old Bartolo Colon is perfect through 7 against the Astros.

[kingfc22]

44 going on 48 :)

[Shkspr]

Overlooked is that his opponent, Verlander, has only allowed two baserunners himself through 8.

[tarcone]

Colon walks lead off hitter on 8th

[Scoobz0202]

Dream is daed

[tarcone]

ANd the no-no goes bye bye

[Logan]

I've seen a broken bat HR before. But I don't recall seeing if as completely sawed off like Harper just did to deGrom.

It was incredible. I'm not even mad

[PilotMan]

Reds give Price the boot after a 3-15 start. I am not sure that'll solve the issues in town.

[JPhillips]

The lineup stinks, and that isn't Price's fault, but the pitching is terrible and has been for years. That has to fall, to some degree, on the former pitching coach manager.

[mauchow]

Cubs have played 15 games and have had 5 postponed to later dates.

[Butter]

The lineup stinks, and that isn't Price's fault, but the pitching is terrible and has been for years. That has to fall, to some degree, on the former pitching coach manager.

The whole roster is atrocious right now. They need to bring up a bunch of youngsters and just let them get on the job training. Senzel in particular. The pitching staff especially.

Also need a new GM if that's doable.

I like Garrett, Iglesias, Hughes, Reed... some other youngsters haven't gotten much time yet.

[Chief Rum]

The Red Sox are good.

[Thomkal]

Danny Farquhar of Chicago White Sox suffered brain hemorrhage during Friday's game (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23278183/danny-farquhar-chicago-white-sox-suffered-brain-hemorrhage-friday-game)

[PilotMan]

No love for the no-no last night? Damn, west coast games never get the love.

[Drake]

I watched it on TV. I thought Benitendi eluded the tag...but I'm a Red Sox homer. :)

Sometimes all you can do is tip your cap to a guy who's dealing. Manaea had wicked stuff last night.

[dubb93]

I watched it on TV. I thought Benitendi eluded the tag...but I'm a Red Sox homer. :)

Sometimes all you can do is tip your cap to a guy who's dealing. Manaea had wicked stuff last night.

Nope he is was clearly outside the lines. The over the shoulder missed catch was a hit though. IDK if I’ve ever really seen a diving over the shoulder missed grab ruled an error before that one.

[JPhillips]

Riggleman might be worse than Price. He's batting Peraza second, with a current .260 obp and .575 ops and a lifetime ops of .657.

I'm pretty sure the Reds will win more than thirty games, but they're going to make a run for it.

[tarcone]

Riggleman might be worse than Price. He's batting Peraza second, with a current .260 obp and .575 ops and a lifetime ops of .657.

I'm pretty sure the Reds will win more than thirty games, but they're going to make a run for it.

They better get to 30 before they trade Votto. Otherwise there is no way.