NFL 2018 Off Season Thread

[albionmoonlight]

I am struggling with the notion that my favorite NFC team has or will acquire 3 of my 5 least favorite players in the NFL. How does one reconcile this? Should the focus be on weighing the positives against the negatives?

I'd just cross my fingers and pray that Vontaze Burfict does not become available.

[NobodyHere]

He's suspended anyways so you're safe for a couple games at least.

[Buccaneer]

I'd just cross my fingers and pray that Vontaze Burfict does not become available.

and he’s first on my least favorite list. Maybe my question is especially pertinent to Bengals fans.

[NobodyHere]

Jaguars acquire QB Kessler in trade with Browns (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/jaguars-acquire-qb-kessler-in-trade-with-browns/ar-BBKPzwS?li=BBnba9I)

[stevew]

2 firsts for OBJ seems ok when some team is just going to shit themself on this year's version of Johnathan Baldwin or Craig Davis

[NobodyHere]

Colts GM was opposed to tabled 'Josh McDaniels rule' - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000923528/article/colts-gm-was-opposed-to-tabled-josh-mcdaniels-rule)

Well that's interesting

[NobodyHere]

Hue Jackson dreams of pairing Bradley Chubb with Garrett (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/hue-jackson-dreams-of-pairing-bradley-chubb-with-garrett/ar-AAvifKa?li=BBnbfcL)

Coach Hue Jackson seems to have one candidate in mind — defensive lineman Bradley Chubb, who he admitted he has dreamt about drafting and pairing with Myles Garrett.

“I do at nighttime when I’m by myself,” Jackson said

Looks like Jackson has a chubby for Chubb. Is this smokescreen or will Chubb be gone by the 4th pick? I was kind of hoping he'd fall to the Colts.

[Thomkal]

Mark Rypien talks about his mental health issues after three concussions from his NFL playing days including a suicide attempt:

Mark Rypien, former Super Bowl MVP for Washington Redskins, says he attempted suicide (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22968747/mark-rypien-former-super-bowl-mvp-washington-redskins-says-attempted-suicide)

[Atocep]

Fantastic story about Stedman Bailey's comeback attempt.

'I Can't Be Stopped': Stedman Bailey Opens Up on Shooting, NFL Comeback Attempt | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2767935-i-cant-be-stopped-stedman-bailey-opens-up-on-shooting-nfl-comeback-attempt)

[Kodos]

Mark Rypien talks about his mental health issues after three concussions from his NFL playing days including a suicide attempt:

Mark Rypien, former Super Bowl MVP for Washington Redskins, says he attempted suicide (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22968747/mark-rypien-former-super-bowl-mvp-washington-redskins-says-attempted-suicide)

:(

[Thomkal]

Rams looking scary good:

Rams acquire Brandin Cooks in trade with Patriots - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000924657/article/rams-acquire-brandin-cooks-in-trade-with-patriots)

[BishopMVP]

Rams looking scary good:

Rams acquire Brandin Cooks in trade with Patriots - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000924657/article/rams-acquire-brandin-cooks-in-trade-with-patriots)So we basically got a free year of Cooks & moved up from 32 to 23 in the process? Sweet.

I assume the Pats will definitely be going after a veteran WR. I suppose with this precedent an ODB trade is on the table from our side if we think we can do the same thing and get a year of his service & flip him for a comparable return before he gets PAID. Signing Jordan Matthews on an incentive/roster bonus laden deal seems much more likely.

I also assume that that pick will be spent on a lineman or LB/TE, possibly after a trade back or two, and not a WR or QB. But nothing will shock me, and like I've said before, if one of Darnold/Rosen slip on draft day I'd be happy to take them later in the first round. I'd also be fine with Mayfield/Jackson/Woodside 2nd round or later.

[AlexB]

I'm reading it you kept 32, which sounds like a hell of a deal...

[BishopMVP]

I'm reading it you kept 32, which sounds like a hell of a deal...I mean we traded #32 in last year's draft for #23 this year & that year of cheap Brandin Cooks. (yes, there was some swapping of 3's & 4's & 6's in there, but they were more or less a wash.)

This year our pick isn't #32, it's #31 :(

[Galaril]

I mean we traded #32 in last year's draft for #23 this year & that year of cheap Brandin Cooks. (yes, there was some swapping of 3's & 4's & 6's in there, but they were more or less a wash.)

This year our pick isn't #32, it's #31 :(

Maybe Bill is going to cough up the two first rounds and a second to get in the top 5 spots of the first to get Rosen?

[AlexB]

I mean we traded #32 in last year's draft for #23 this year & that year of cheap Brandin Cooks. (yes, there was some swapping of 3's & 4's & 6's in there, but they were more or less a wash.)

This year our pick isn't #32, it's #31 :(

I see :redface:

[BishopMVP]

Maybe Bill is going to cough up the two first rounds and a second to get in the top 5 spots of the first to get Rosen?That would be wildly out of character, and it also probably wouldn't be enough - the Jets just traded 6, 37, 49 & next year's 2nd (presumably a high 2nd), for pick #3. And it's not like Brady has announced he's retiring after next season or looks like he will at this point. If Rosen (or Darnold) slides, maybe they make a play for them, but using picks to fill out the roster and get a developmental QB late 1st or day 2 makes much more sense.

[stevew]

So after seeing the new Titans kits, I hope there's some sort of snafu where the Titans and Seahawks equipment managers both bring their blue sets of jerseys for a head to head matchup.

[miked]

So we basically got a free year of Cooks & moved up from 32 to 23 in the process? Sweet.

I assume the Pats will definitely be going after a veteran WR. I suppose with this precedent an ODB trade is on the table from our side if we think we can do the same thing and get a year of his service & flip him for a comparable return before he gets PAID. Signing Jordan Matthews on an incentive/roster bonus laden deal seems much more likely.

I also assume that that pick will be spent on a lineman or LB/TE, possibly after a trade back or two, and not a WR or QB. But nothing will shock me, and like I've said before, if one of Darnold/Rosen slip on draft day I'd be happy to take them later in the first round. I'd also be fine with Mayfield/Jackson/Woodside 2nd round or later.

They will trade the 1st for a few 2nds and a 3rd, everyone will laud the move as monumental. They will use the picks to draft a center, a fullback, and some DE who were overlooked in the combine but fit the "Patriot way" and are "Belichick guys" in some way. The FB will rush for 230 yards in week and instantly be named the next Barry Sanders (and be the biggest waiver pickup) until he drops a pass in practice the following week and is inactive until week 14.

[Thomkal]

Cleveland has now traded all of their QB's from last season, as they have traded Chris Hogan to Washington, who will also have a completely new QB roster as well:

Cleveland Browns trade Kevin Hogan to Washington Redskins (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23054038/cleveland-browns-trade-kevin-hogan-washington-redskins)

[BishopMVP]

Patriots did indeed sign Jordan Matthews (and Troy Niklas) to one year prove it deals. I really like it, because even as a Pats homer I shake my head at the people who were saying Malcolm Mitchell is a star in the making and could replace Cooks on the outside. I hope Mitchell does reach his potential, but I think he's missed as many games due to injury as he has catches in his first two seasons. Matthews had the injury problems last season, but 3 seasons in the 70 catch, 800ish yard range that'll fit right in the Pats system.

[albionmoonlight]

In five years, I think that we will look back on the 1st round QBs in this order:

[QUALITY STARTERS]

Rosen
Mayfield

[STARTER]

Darnold

[BACKUPS]

Jackson
Rudolph

[DUMPSTER FIRE]

Allen

[Logan]

Starting to sound like Reuben Foster may be a really bad dude.

[albionmoonlight]

Starting to sound like Reuben Foster may be a really bad dude.

Saints were on the phone with him welcoming him to the team when the 49ers traded up to take him one pick before the Saints. Saints ended up drafting Ryan Ramczyk, who played every snap last year.

This shit is 90% luck.

[Thomkal]

Looked like Colin Kaepernick was on his way back to the NFL but...

Seahawks postpone workout for Colin Kaepernick - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000926234/article/seahawks-postpone-workout-for-colin-kaepernick)

[stevew]

Dez Bryant got fired.

[lungs]

Dez Bryant got fired.

I love Dez but it's painfully obvious he was getting no separation from defenders and his hands aren't good enough to be a Keyshawn Johnson style possession guy. Not at the price he was being paid anyway.

[NobodyHere]

I didn't even know he was still in the league

Mark Sanchez suspended 4 games for violating NFL's PED policy (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/mark-sanchez-suspended-4-games-for-violating-nfls-ped-policy/ar-AAvRo6W?li=BBnbfcL)

[stevew]

I wonder if Sanchez and NBA guy Jodi Meeks were using the same supplement ? I know claiming “tainted” is right out of the cheater handbook but it has to happen occasionally, right?

[molson]

I wonder if Sanchez and NBA guy Jodi Meeks were using the same supplement ? I know claiming “tainted” is right out of the cheater handbook but it has to happen occasionally, right?

It happens, but in bodybuilding and MMA, the "taint" is a feature, not a bug. The pills can get on the shelves and websites based on what they claim to be, but there's no regulations, and the pills are sold on reputation and results. And savvy users understand that that the ingredients of certain pills aren't going to be limited to what's listed on the label. Almost every single UFC fighter who fails a drug test (and there's 10+ a year) claim "tainted supplements", and, they're almost all right. But that's the game. Most regular athletes don't have a big outfit like BALCO at their disposal, they're accessing banned substances through supplements, either intentionally, or through a choice to be willfully ignorant.

[NobodyHere]

Report: Baker Mayfield to Jets 'a done deal' (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/report-baker-mayfield-to-jets-a-done-deal/ar-AAw2w8k?li=BBnba9I)

[Julio Riddols]

He'd be the best QB the Jets have had since Pennington if they get him.

[miked]

Sanchize v2. Do the Jets not learn?

[albionmoonlight]

Report: Baker Mayfield to Jets 'a done deal' (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/report-baker-mayfield-to-jets-a-done-deal/ar-AAw2w8k?li=BBnba9I)

Headline: Baker Mayfield to Jets 'a done deal'

From inside of story:

Perhaps the only way Mayfield doesn’t land on Gang Green’s roster this year is if Sam Darnold ends up falling and is there at No. 3.

So, it's a "done deal." The only way it won't happen is if he's not on the board or if there's another player on the board who they like better.

Honest question--how much do people get paid to write stuff like this? Not the Adam Schefters and Ian Rapoports who actually have insiders and break news or the Bill Barnwells who write long articles based on research

But the people who write online sports articles with provocative headlines that actually say nothing. Like, do they make a living on that, or is it just kind of a side hustle for fractions of a penny per click?

[Logan]

Plenty make a living doing it (although not as many as there used to be) and plenty more do it for pennies per click in the hopes of eventually making a living doing it.

It's shocking how little I read about sports these days.

[QuikSand]

So, I haven't been keeping up with this thread a ton, but a few offseason observations:

-I cannot help but like the Jags now. I love the way they are building that team, and really hope they continue to develop from here. I sense regression as a real possibility, but I think it's really cool -- especially from the perspective of a homegame GM guy who loves-loves-loves the whole concept of roster building toward a certain type of goal.

-I am fascinated and titillated by the Rams and their apparent "go for it" mode, which is seemingly all but new to the NFL, at least for teams who are not yet there. If it's just a function of "cheap but good QB" I'm ok with that as an outcome of the cap system, but it's fun to watch. The 1yr deal with Suh is tremendous.

-As a guy who has some residual love for the Dolphins... WTF are they doing? I'm basically okay deciding not to overpay a good-not-great slot receiver and even getting a pick for him, and I could defer to their judgment on Suh as a team cancer. Okay, but what is this team trying to do? And when are they hiring their next GM, cuz I could do better.

Anyway, I confess to being sorta sick of the old guard, and would be fine if the next few years got non-fans saying "who are these guys?" deep into the playoffs. Go Jags, Go Rams, Go ... idano...Browns?

[cuervo72]

Anyway, I confess to being sorta sick of the old guard

Yes. At least in the NFC I wouldn't mind seeing a couple years of LA/MIN/PHI battling it out.

In the AFC, sure - I can get behind JAX. Anyone but NE, and go ahead and give PIT the boot too.

[Julio Riddols]

If the Browns make the right choice at QB they will be a good team in a few seasons. As it is, Taylor ought to give them a solid shot at 6 wins this year I think. They're doing the right thing sticking with Hue.

[Julio Riddols]

go ahead and give PIT the boot too.

This sounds pretty agreeable to me.

[Chief Rum]

Any thoughts on the schedule?

Man, if the Rams go into the playoffs as the #1 seed in the NFC, they will have earned it. They play MIN on a short week in September and greet PHI at home in December. In between those games, they play only two games in LA over the ten games (a third "home" game is versus the Chiefs in Mexico City).

[BishopMVP]

So, it's a "done deal." The only way it won't happen is if he's not on the board or if there's another player on the board who they like better.

Honest question--how much do people get paid to write stuff like this? Not the Adam Schefters and Ian Rapoports who actually have insiders and break news or the Bill Barnwells who write long articles based on research

But the people who write online sports articles with provocative headlines that actually say nothing. Like, do they make a living on that, or is it just kind of a side hustle for fractions of a penny per click?I like Schefty, but even he wrote a big article for clicks that boiled down to "everyone around the Patriots and Tom Brady think Brady is playing in 2018, but he hasn't explicitly stated he will yet" last week. Bad editing, click-based metrics, the faster news cycle that requires pushing out new content are all part of the problem.

(Fwiw, I think he'll still play as long as Brady does, but there is a legitimate chance Gronk could retire. Brady is 100% playing, and despite missing a couple days of voluntary workouts is already lining up passing sessions with WR's.)
-As a guy who has some residual love for the Dolphins... WTF are they doing? I'm basically okay deciding not to overpay a good-not-great slot receiver and even getting a pick for him, and I could defer to their judgment on Suh as a team cancer. Okay, but what is this team trying to do? And when are they hiring their next GM, cuz I could do better.
Yeah, none of the individual moves are terrible in a vacuum, but there seems to be no overall vision. We'll see if they draft a 1st round QB & try to set things up around him going forward, but right now everything is kind of a holding pattern. Like, sure, maybe you don't think Jarvis Landry is worth $15m mil a year... but you think Kenny Stills + Danny Amendola is? Idk, I know he's not a dynamic deep threat and doesn't score enough touchdowns for fantasy owners, but he got so many first downs and drew so much attention it wasn't empty stats - https://www.lockedondolphins.com/dolphins/jarvis-landry-2017-receptions-chart/ - and I don't think the contract he signed is crazy (basically a 2 yr $32m deal with 3 1 year $14m options afterwards.)

[stevew]

Both the Jags and Miami just nailed their uniform changes.

[NobodyHere]

What's going on with Eli Manning? How bad is it?

NFL has no comment on Eli Manning’s pending fraud trial – ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/04/21/nfl-has-no-comment-on-eli-mannings-pending-fraud-trial/)

Maybe the Giants should take a QB at number 2.

[albionmoonlight]

Two QBs in this draft fascinate me in terms of a huge split between NFL insiders and educated fans: Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

Most fans I see talking about the draft see Allen as JaMarcus Russel type bust and Lamar Jackson as an exciting DeShaun Watson type talent.

But pretty much every reporter who actually has access to team thinking has Allen clearly ahead of Jackson.

I'm really interested to see in five years who was right.

[Logan]

I'd be shocked if it took that long.

[Logan]

With Mayfield now getting some pub as the possible #1 pick for the Browns, you can now find major media people who have said they are locked in on Darnold, Allen, and Mayfield.

Which means Rosen has to be their guy, right?

[NobodyHere]

Nah, the Browns are getting Barkley and Chubb

[JPhillips]

With Mayfield now getting some pub as the possible #1 pick for the Browns, you can now find major media people who have said they are locked in on Darnold, Allen, and Mayfield.

Which means Rosen has to be their guy, right?

And Barkley.

[stevew]

Andrew Luck still isn't throwing? This seems like a disaster looming for the Colts. He hasn't thrown a football in more than a year and is supposed to be ready this fall? Seems unlikely.

[Logan]

Don't think anyone cares, but I want a record of this to come back to. My personal rankings of the big QBs in this draft, in terms of how I expect their careers will go:

1. Rosen
2. Darnold
3. Jackson
4. Mayfield
5. Allen

Plan on updating it as necessary once the selections are made to see if team/fit changes things for me.

[EagleFan]

1) Darnold
2) Jackson
3) Allen
4) Rosen
...
Mayfield

[MrBug708]

Rosen
Allen
Darnold
Falk
Mayfield
Jackson

[Galaril]

Rosen
Lauletta
Darnold
Faulk
White
Rudolph
Jackson
Allen






Mayfield.... in the CFL

[Julio Riddols]

Mayfield is my top guy. I think he might be the only guy who can make the Browns work right out the gate.

Darnold slides in at 2 with some Favre style gunslinging.

Lauletta has worked his way into the 3 spot as an underappreciated guy whose skills certainly look like they translate to a higher level in the Senior Bowl. Feels like the Garoppolo of the class.

Rosen at 4 with a very Cutleresque career.

Allen at 5 unless he goes to a team that sits him for a year or two before letting him loose with that arm. In the 70's I think he would have been a total stud. Today not so much.

Jackson at an exciting but frustrating 6. The kind of guy who gets you points and moves the ball and puts butts in seats, but can't stay on the field because his bread and butter is his athleticism. He's gonna get hit and his body looks way too thinly built for him to take NFL punishment.

Woodside is my dark horse long-term creeper.

Falk should be an excellent backup for a long time.

Rudolph is probably the only one I haven't made up my mind on that will be selected in the first couple rounds. He reminds me of bread with nothing on it. I'd eat it if there was nothing else to eat.

[NobodyHere]

To me the QB most likely to fail is the one drafted by the Browns.

As a fellow Toledo alum I have to root for Logan Woodside. Probably won't be anywhere top tier, but I think he'll have a similiar career to Toledoan Bruce Gradkowski.

[Edward64]

Looking forward to the draft tonight and wishing Cleveland the best at #1 & #4 (really wanting them to see some success in the next several years).

I don't know how to really evaluate the top 3 QB's. If I was the Browns, I would go with RB Barkley and then pick the remaining QB at #4. Barkley is the best player in the draft and can/should contribute immediately whereas the QB is a crapshoot IMO.

[Kodos]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/heres-why-drafting-saquon-barkley-could-be-a-mistake/

[Kodos]

Heh. More evidence of my slow drift away from the NFL. I knew the draft was coming, but didn't realize it was today. I thought maybe it was this weekend, but had forgotten the whole stupid move it to a weekday in primetime thing.

[QuikSand]

Looking forward to the draft tonight and wishing Cleveland the best at #1 & #4 (really wanting them to see some success in the next several years).

I don't know how to really evaluate the top 3 QB's. If I was the Browns, I would go with RB Barkley and then pick the remaining QB at #4. Barkley is the best player in the draft and can/should contribute immediately whereas the QB is a crapshoot IMO.

I co-sign this, but am willing to put Chubb in the #1 spot also. Wouldn't be mortified by Barkley though.

[QuikSand]

Rosen
Darnold
Mayfield
Jackson
Lauletta
Allen

[albionmoonlight]

Reposting this so I can have it for easy access:

Rosen
Mayfield
Darnold
Jackson
Rudolph
Allen

I was on the fence with Rosen until Jim Mora Jr. went out of his way to slam him. Anytime a coach that bad feels that strongly about a player, I'm comfortable going the opposite way.

[Atocep]

Mayfield
Darnold
Rosen
Allen
Jackson

[Arles]

For the Packers, my preferred selections would be:
1. Roquan Smith (prob have to trade up)
2. Minkah Fitzpatrick (prob have to trade up)
3. Tremaine Edmunds
4. Jaire Alexander
5. Denzel Ward

I'll also be shocked if Darnold doesn't go #1. I think all this Mayfield stuff is a smoke screen by the Browns to mess with the Jets or Giants. If the Browns can somehow mess with people's heads to have QBs go 1-3 (ie, raise the value of Mayfield and maybe have someone trade to 2), they get their pick of position players at 4.

[CU Tiger]

My thoughts for posterity sake

Rudolph is the safest bet. I see career back up, to possible starter 4 years down the road as his ceiling, but I think that's pretty much a guaranteed floor as well. I could see the Pats taking him in the 2 or 3 range and getting great value.

Mayfield is boom or bust. I think hes a bust but I think there is a 20% chance he catches lightening in a bottle in the right fit and has a nice career.

Jackson - he has a differentiating skill set. I dont think it translates. But if someone committed to using him he could be successful.

Rosen, Darnold - Bust. Neither ever leads a team to a conference championship. Neither is a starting QB in 4 years.

Allen - Total flop. Out of the league in 3 years.


BTW of all of "Parcells QB Rules"
23 wins as a college starter is the highest eliminator of elite QBs. Not to say that all with 23 wins are elite, but of the top 14 rated passers in the NFL 12 hit the 23 win plateau as a college starter.

Josh Allen - 16
Rosen -17 wins
Darnold - 21
Lamar Jackson - 24
Mason Rudolph - 32
Baker Mayfield - 39

[Ryche]

Darnold
Allen
Jackson
Mayfield
Rosen
Lauletta
Falk
White

Darnold and Allen are probably the only 2 I'd want in the first

[miked]

My thoughts for posterity sake

Rudolph is the safest bet. I see career back up, to possible starter 4 years down the road as his ceiling, but I think that's pretty much a guaranteed floor as well. I could see the Pats taking him in the 2 or 3 range and getting great value.

Mayfield is boom or bust. I think hes a bust but I think there is a 20% chance he catches lightening in a bottle in the right fit and has a nice career.

Jackson - he has a differentiating skill set. I dont think it translates. But if someone committed to using him he could be successful.

Rosen, Darnold - Bust. Neither ever leads a team to a conference championship. Neither is a starting QB in 4 years.

Allen - Total flop. Out of the league in 3 years.


BTW of all of "Parcells QB Rules"
23 wins as a college starter is the highest eliminator of elite QBs. Not to say that all with 23 wins are elite, but of the top 14 rated passers in the NFL 12 hit the 23 win plateau as a college starter.

Josh Allen - 16
Rosen -17 wins
Darnold - 21
Lamar Jackson - 24
Mason Rudolph - 32
Baker Mayfield - 39

Curious, which of these QBs led their team to conference titles (for real, I don't know)?

Brees
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brady
Wilson
Rivers
Ryan
Stafford

I'm sure I'm leaving people out, but these seem to be the elite QBs of the NFL and very few seem to fit that criteria.

[Logan]

Curious, which of these QBs led their team to conference titles (for real, I don't know)?

Brees
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brady
Wilson
Rivers
Ryan
Stafford

I'm sure I'm leaving people out, but these seem to be the elite QBs of the NFL and very few seem to fit that criteria.

I think CU was speaking about never doing that for their NFL teams. And then being out in 4 years.

[CU Tiger]

I think CU was speaking about never doing that for their NFL teams. And then being out in 4 years.

This. Just stating my projection of their NFL career.
I was going to say "never wins a playoff game" but I mean...Tim Tebow did that. So never a conference champ seems like a good bar.

[Arles]

Brees - 24, Rodgers - 18, Ben - 27, Brady - 20 (some as a backup), Wilson - 30, Ryan - 30, Rivers - 34, Stafford - 30.

But, remember, a lot of these guys played 4 years. Darnold and Allen just played two. In his first two seasons, Darnold had more wins than Rodgers, Brees, Wilson and Ben. I'm not sure how viable a stat that is now days as most highly rated QBs won't start more than 2 seasons before going pro. Your top 3 "winning" college QBs in the modern era are Kellen Moore, Colt McCoy and Andy Dalton. Not exactly a great list...

[miked]

Hah, misreading FTW

[CU Tiger]

Curious, which of these QBs led their team to conference titles (for real, I don't know)?

Brees
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brady
Wilson
Rivers
Ryan
Stafford

I'm sure I'm leaving people out, but these seem to be the elite QBs of the NFL and very few seem to fit that criteria.


But I think you do kind of illustrate my point.

Brees -24
Rodgers - 18 (2 year starter )
Roethlisberger - 27
Brady - 20 (2 year starter)
Wilson - 31
Rivers - 34
Ryan - 30
Stafford - 30


16 and 17 are huge red flags.
Darnold sort of fits the Rodgers/Brady pattern I just personally dont see it.

[CU Tiger]

But, remember, a lot of these guys played 4 years.

Rivers is really your only 4 year starter.

[sabotai]

Even though I really don't know much about these guys, I'll throw out a list for shits and giggles.

Darnold
Mayfield
Rosen
Rudolph
Jackson
Allen

Of course, who ever the Browns take will plummet to the bottom of the list, as is tradition.

[Logan]

According to Twitter, Mayfield is now -500 to go #1 at Sportsbook.ag

Madness.

[Thomkal]

I think seeing all the orders of QB given here and mock drafts, nobody has a clue how things will go tonight.

[Julio Riddols]

Mayfield is the only guy who will have success in Cleveland. He's the only one with the mentality to do it. I think he will take Taylor's job by mid season if they take him.

Rosen seems like a great fit for New England, but I think he goes to the Giants if they don't take Barkley. If the Giants take Barkley, I think that means they will be picking high again next season because their QB situation is not too good. Manning is one of the most overrated QBs in the league, up there with Flacco.

[Arles]

Rivers is really your only 4 year starter.
Rodgers is the only 2 year starter as well. Most were 3-year starters that played some in year 4 as well. It was a different world. My point was I don't think you can fault Darnold. He redshirted his first year as most QBs do now days and then started nearly all his 2nd and 3rd year. That's about the best you are going to get for elite prospects.

I think the 23 win number is a good one for 3 or 4 year starters. It hurts guys like Rosen, Hackenberg and Paxton Lynch - while others like Watson, Prescott and Derek Carr won more. I just think it is a little unfair for guys like Darnold and Cam Newton (who won a ton, but didn't play 3+ seasons). But if you want to use it as a knock on Rosen, I think that's legit.

[Ryche]

Well, Allen did start most of his year at the junior college and was the starter 3 years at Wyoming (being injured 2 games into his first season) So calling him a 2 year starter is a bit harsh.

[Arles]

Well, Allen did start most of his year at the junior college and was the starter 3 years at Wyoming (being injured 2 games into his first season) So calling him a 2 year starter is a bit harsh.
My point was in regards to wins. It's hard to get 23 wins when you only start two seasons. Allen was 8-3 last season and Darnold was 11-2. I think it's a legit knock against Rosen - as he started 30 games and won just 17.

[CU Tiger]

Rodgers is the only 2 year starter as well. Most were 3-year starters that played some in year 4 as well. It was a different world. My point was I don't think you can fault Darnold. He redshirted his first year as most QBs do now days and then started nearly all his 2nd and 3rd year. That's about the best you are going to get for elite prospects.

I think the 23 win number is a good one for 3 or 4 year starters. It hurts guys like Rosen, Hackenberg and Paxton Lynch - while others like Watson, Prescott and Derek Carr won more. I just think it is a little unfair for guys like Darnold and Cam Newton (who won a ton, but didn't play 3+ seasons). But if you want to use it as a knock on Rosen, I think that's legit.

Rodgers and Brady were both 2 year starters on your list.
Clearly both are elite QBs, but they are the outlier not the rule. You could also add neither was asked to start day 1.

Back to my first post I dont think 23 wins guarantees success, but not having 23 is a huge red flag for me. Its not a be all end all metric, but you better either have Rodgers/Brady talent or a darn good explanation as to why you dont have the wins.

I disagree strongly with your assertion that "most QBs red shirt these days" its exceedingly rare for a top QB to red shirt.

For me, there is still and "it" factor with QBs. Its one reason I was so adamant that Watson would be a star last year. Despite only starting for 2 full seasons he had won 33 games as a college starter. He won 40 some games as a high school kid at a GA high school that had historically been a door mat.

Winner's win. Winner's elevate those around them.

I hate,hate,hate Baker Mayfield. But the dude wins and his team mates will run through a wall for him. I think there is a high bust potential there. Very high. But I'd take him before any other QB in this draft if I am Cleveland and forced to take a QB at 1-1.

I dont like Darnold, but I can see a scenario where he shines. I dont expect it. But I can see it.

I dont want Allen at Mr. Irrelevant.

To your earlier point about it being hard to get 23 wins in 2 years as a starter, unless there are mitigating circumstances 2 years as a starter is a red flag in itself. If you are a franchise QB you should be starting darn near day 1. If you arent then I want to now why. I hope the QB you couldnt beat out is a starter somewhere in the NFL...because at best I am playing runnr up to that team.

[Galaril]

Well, Allen did start most of his year at the junior college and was the starter 3 years at Wyoming (being injured 2 games into his first season) So calling him a 2 year starter is a bit harsh.

If the Broncos draft anyone in the first at 5 I am going to be disappointed this team needs a semi rebuild and already got a QB who is at worse serviceable. They need to trade back get two first and another second rounder and or a third from say Buffalo. Fix the line grab a RB a CB and some slime depth. They will be back in the top 12 next year I suspect. They should grab a Lauletta or Falk in the third or fourth round and dump Lynch.

[Arles]

For the QBs, I think three could be good:
1. Darnold
2. Jackson
3. Rosen

I don't see either Mayfield or Allen being a successful starter, but it is always a crapshoot. Darnold is the safest pick for a 10-year starter, but I do think Jackson has a ton of upside. I think Rosen is getting knocked for his personality a lot, and those UCLA teams just weren't very good. He took a beating and kept on going - which is a good trait for the next Jets QB :D

[MrBug708]

Most of the Rosen personality stuff is just media nonsense. I think the real reason he's not the #1 is because nobody is convinced he can stay healthy and that's risky taking him. If you can't protect him, don't bother drafting him

[Suicane75]

My opinions on the QB's in this draft.

1.1 Mayfield: I don't have a firm opinion either way. He can throw and he can move, but he's also small and may get blown up trying to move in the NFL. I'm not against trying him out, but not at 1.1

1.3 Darnold: He's the guy I think I like most, and even then I don't love him. I could see many average seasons from him. Being in NY will hurt because they'll want him to be better than he is, even if he's adequate. I think his ceiling is Penningtonesque, which before the injuries wasn't all that bad.

1.7 Allen: No. If you can't throw it doesn't matter what else you can do. God save us from Blake Bortles 2.0

1.10 Josh Rosen: I don't care what he can do with his arm, he's a fucking bean and he's gonna get killed in the NFL. If he adds weight and if he has an elite line keeping him healthy I think he could be the best QB in the draft, but between his head and his skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny body, he could be closer to David Carr than anything worthwhile.

1.32 Lamar Jackson: I like him. I'm probably wrong, but I think you can teach the things that need teaching and you can't teach instinct and freak athleticism. And I don't think the things that need teaching are as bad as his detractors will tell you. If he takes a year or two to learn, and he WILL learn, this is a steal of epic proportions.

[Julio Riddols]

I think what is going to make Mayfield good is that there are things about him that you don't have to or can't coach into a person. He's overcome odds his whole career, starting at a major school as a freshman walk on is crazy, especially one that relies so much on passing. Not only did he start, he had tremendous success in doing so. He has a charismatic quality that teammates obviously love, and I don't think his passion for the game is even questionable. The fact that he has succeeded as he has despite being dismissed as an afterthought every step of the way (he wasn't even really on the draft radar as recently as the beginning of the 2017 season) says all that needs to be said about how rock solid his demeanor is, and that is something you need when you're down big and your teammates look to you and ask "what now?". This guy isn't a California pretty boy QB, he's got some dirt on him and embraces hardship more than any other prospect in recent memory. Every question about him has been answered on and off the field at every turn, and that's why he went number 1. I think this pick will make John Dorsey a legend in Cleveland.

All I see is a trait that all the great QB's share, and that is one of making the players around them better. Add his obvious talent and a confidence level that I don't think can be shaken to the equation and I feel like no situation is too bad for him. It sucks that the Browns will be successful soon, but I'm gonna enjoy the hell out of watching him torch the Bengals a couple times a year.

Hard knocks will be a fun watch this year for sure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I disagree strongly with your assertion that "most QBs red shirt these days" its exceedingly rare for a top QB to red shirt.

Even when they should (*cough*Shea Patterson *cough*)

*and by "top" I'm referring to college QB prospects, not making any statement about Patterson's NFL potential*

[MrBug708]

1.10 Josh Rosen: I don't care what he can do with his arm, he's a fucking bean and he's gonna get killed in the NFL. If he adds weight and if he has an elite line keeping him healthy I think he could be the best QB in the draft, but between his head and his skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny body, he could be closer to David Carr than anything worthwhile.


I'm curious as to what exactly is the definition of skinny? He measured 6'4, 226. That's bigger than most of the QB's in the draft. I get that he doesn't quite have hisman body yet, but skinny seems like an odd word. The average size of an NFL quarter back is 6'3.5 and 225, which Josh hits pretty much on the mark.

[Suicane75]

I'm curious as to what exactly is the definition of skinny? He measured 6'4, 226. That's bigger than most of the QB's in the draft. I get that he doesn't quite have hisman body yet, but skinny seems like an odd word. The average size of an NFL quarter back is 6'3.5 and 225, which Josh hits pretty much on the mark.

I don't care what the numbers say, all I have to do is look at him. He may be hiding his weight somewhere but when you look at him, in uniform and out, he's skinny. He looks like frail, which would be something I'd be more willing to dismiss if he didn't have a track record of getting hurt.

[cuervo72]

So you're saying he's Sam Bradford.

[CU Tiger]

Rosen actually has a solid and thick lower body.
He has high hips and a thick hamstring glute chain which will serve him well.
He has a narrow upper body, long slope trap arrangement and a long neck. He looks skinnier than he is.

Unfortunately for him, most NFL QB injuries are to the upper body and his build doesnt help him there.

Of all the things to question Rosen on, I think his build is down the list. Except for his arm length. 31" arms at 6'4" is far from ideal for a QB in my unpaid opinion.

Again I think Rosen's problem will be his head not his body.

[MrBug708]

That's probably a good thing for his career then

[Atocep]

According to Peter King, the Pats had interest in Mayfield if he slipped into a range they could trade up to.

The Browns got very little interest in the #4 pick. The only team offering a 2019 1st offered it on the condition Mayfield was there at 4.

[Eaglesfan27]

Rosen actually has a solid and thick lower body.
He has high hips and a thick hamstring glute chain which will serve him well.
He has a narrow upper body, long slope trap arrangement and a long neck. He looks skinnier than he is.

Unfortunately for him, most NFL QB injuries are to the upper body and his build doesnt help him there.

Of all the things to question Rosen on, I think his build is down the list. Except for his arm length. 31" arms at 6'4" is far from ideal for a QB in my unpaid opinion.

Again I think Rosen's problem will be his head not his body.

Nice analysis. I agree with everything you said. I think his head is going to be why he fails to live up to his draft status.

[MrBug708]

Nice analysis. I agree with everything you said. I think his head is going to be why he fails to live up to his draft status.

Injuries would be my best guess, especially since he probably will be one of those concussion guys who quits before it's too late.

By head, I'm guessing you mean mouth?

[Chief Rum]

I'm with Bug. I think people overrate the effect of his "head." There has been no lack of successful quarterbacks who are egotistical and outspoken.

I think the injury concern, though, is very real. If he fails to reach his potential, that will be the reason.

[MrBug708]

Browns exec on Josh Rosen: “Something about him . . . bothered me” – ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/04/30/browns-exec-on-josh-rosen-something-about-him-bothered-me/)

Browns V.P. of player personnel Alonzo Highsmith had plenty to say on Monday about how the team settled on quarterback Baker Mayfield. Highsmith also shared some insights on why the Browns didn’t settle on quarterback Josh Rosen.

“I was at an airport,” Highsmith said Monday at the Pro Football Hall of Fame Luncheon Club, via the Canton Repository. “UCLA’s volleyball team was in front of me. You heard so much about Rosen. He’s this or that. We all know how people talk.

“So I asked one of the volleyball coaches, ‘What’s Rosen like?’ He said, ‘Aaaa, you should probably ask his girlfriend. She’s one of the players. She’s over there.’

“I’m like, ‘All right coach. That’s good enough.’ . . . I don’t know what all this means, but there was something about him that bothered me.”


Browns gonna Browns

[Kodos]

Sometimes you have to go with your gut. Even if you are the Browns.

[MrBug708]

I just find it funny based on the GM being too awkward to talk to his girlfriend

[Logan]

Who's buying this rumor that the Pats were willing to move all the way up to #2 for Baker Mayfield if he was there?

[jeff061]

I have no clue, doesn't fit their MO, but they on occasion do things completely unexpected. At this point I think it's just as likely that Belichick planted it to piss off Brady.

So sick of Brady. Came to the conclusion years ago that he was a bit of a bitch and only played well when something/someone was pressuring him, but my god. I didn't want him to go out there and prove what a whiny primadonna he is to everyone. Just awful that he's here and Garoppolo isn't. Kraft isn't getting near the amount of shit he deserves for screwing this up.

[Chief Rum]

I have no clue, doesn't fit their MO, but they on occasion do things completely unexpected. At this point I think it's just as likely that Belichick planted it to piss off Brady.

So sick of Brady. Came to the conclusion years ago that he was a bit of a bitch and only played well when something/someone was pressuring him, but my god. I didn't want him to go out there and prove what a whiny primadonna he is to everyone. Just awful that he's here and Garoppolo isn't. Kraft isn't getting near the amount of shit he deserves for screwing this up.

Lmao

[BishopMVP]

Who's buying this rumor that the Pats were willing to move all the way up to #2 for Baker Mayfield if he was there?It's almost as believable as the one where we were enamored with Lamar Jackson, before passing on him twice and letting the Ravens pick him. (And fwiw using the Jimmy Johnson draft chart #2 is worth like 2650 points and our 5 picks in the top 95 would've added up to about 2200, so I'm not even sure we had the draft capital to do it unless the Giants were eager to trade down - and by most accounts they've been enamored with Barkley during the whole process.) Were the Patriots interested in Mayfield if he slipped? Maybe, possibly, who knows, but the idea we'd actually trade that much draft capital for a backup QB is amusing.

[Danny]

Allen is going to bust. Poor under pressure and lacks accuracy.

Jackson will most likely be productive until he gets seriously hurt and then things go down hill. I dont think someone his size can make it playing the way he does.

Mayfield should be good if he can overcome the curse of the Browns. Big If.

Rosen should be ok, but probably won't be a stud.

Darnold should be an above average starter, but I dont see franchise QB in him.

[Logan]

How Redskins Used Cheerleaders: Topless Photo Shoots and an Uneasy Night Out - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/sports/redskins-cheerleaders-nfl.html)

Daniel Snyder, folks

When the Washington Redskins took their cheerleading squad to Costa Rica in 2013 for a calendar photo shoot, the first cause for concern among the cheerleaders came when Redskins officials collected their passports upon arrival at the resort, depriving them of their official identification.

For the photo shoot, at the adults-only Occidental Grand Papagayo resort on Culebra Bay, some of the cheerleaders said they were required to be topless, though the photographs used for the calendar would not show nudity. Others wore nothing but body paint. Given the resort’s secluded setting, such revealing poses would not have been a concern for the women — except that the Redskins had invited spectators.

A contingent of sponsors and FedExField suite holders — all men — were granted up-close access to the photo shoots.

[NobodyHere]

I'm sure Roger Goodell will be along with a weakly worded statement any moment now.

[BishopMVP]

As long as they collected their cell phones too so they couldn't post anything that reflected poorly on The Shield I don't see what the problem could be.

[Groundhog]

...what possible reason could they have given to take their passports off them? "Sure, you can get your passport back, just need to entertain some clients first - have to pay back these flights to Costa Rica somehow!" - right out of the sex traffickers playbook.

[AlexB]

Yes, and no. It was standard procedure here up to 20 years ago (I have no direct knowledge since 20 years ago) for sports teams to keep passports for the group on foreign tours for ease of organisation, administration (e.g. at the airport, hotels, etc)

While the situation sounds very wrong in general, the ‘taking away’ of passports didn’t strike me as strange based on my (admittedly outdated) experience.

[JPhillips]

Yes, and no. It was standard procedure here up to 20 years ago (I have no direct knowledge since 20 years ago) for sports teams to keep passports for the group on foreign tours for ease of organisation, administration (e.g. at the airport, hotels, etc)

While the situation sounds very wrong in general, the ‘taking away’ of passports didn’t strike me as strange based on my (admittedly outdated) experience.

Waiting until after they had reached the resort, though, sounds less like organization.

[AlexB]

Waiting until after they had reached the resort, though, sounds less like organization.

Could well be. Also could be that the people needed the passports for immigration, and rather than collect them again at the airport, on the transfer bus, it was done at the hotel. But if they weren’t collected before departure to group check in athe airport too, it does sound less plausible for sure.

Depends on the angle being portrayed, but even if the passports thing is less sinister than it appears, the event sounds seedy from the reports, and easy to see why this element would be looked at quizzically at least.

[stevew]

Mark Ingram suspended for 4 games. No wonder he looked so fresh out there!

[Thomkal]

jets say goodbye to Hackenberg-traded to Raiders for a conditional 7th rounder


New York Jets trade QB Christian Hackenberg to Oakland Raiders for pick (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23574109/new-york-jets-trade-qb-christian-hackenberg-oakland-raiders-pick)

[stevew]

Isn't he one of the few quarterbacks in the draft era to be taken in the first or second round and never see the field in his first 2 years?

[Thomkal]

Isn't he one of the few quarterbacks in the draft era to be taken in the first or second round and never see the field in his first 2 years?


Yep, obviously a great pick by the Jets

[bhlloy]

I'm pretty sure he's terrible, but would anyone really be shocked if he turned into a hall of famer now and Darnold ends up being a massive bust? It would be the most Jets-iest thing ever.

[stevew]

I guess they passed an anthem policy.

[Galaril]

I guess they passed an anthem policy.

Yup if players don't stand they get fined. Players union already said they will review and I assume they fight this one as a violation of players 1st amendment rights. I have no issue with what the players do and am a veteran.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yup if players don't stand they get fined. Players union already said they will review and I assume they fight this one as a violation of players 1st amendment rights. I have no issue with what the players do and am a veteran.

Pretty sure it's not a 1st amendment issue. The NFL isn't the government. LIke it or not, this is basically just a workplace conduct rule, and they wisely added the "if you don't want to stand, you can stay in the locker room" caveat to it.

[molson]

Interesting that the NFL wants to draw new attention to this after it all died down towards the end of last season. I guess we're back to compelling minute-by-minute coverage during pre-game shows of what players are choosing to do what.

[Arles]

I think they want to preemptively stop the PR sh*tstorm that was this kneeling thing last year. They pass this, fight with the PA in June/July and then have a policy for the season that limits the issues. I doubt many players will stay in the locker room (maybe a few in preseason to make a point) as it makes them look like they are bigger than the team.

Overall, I think this is a good business move by the NFL. Worst case, players fight this and either overturn it (not sure how) or a bunch stay in the locker room to protest. Even then, they can look to the fans and advertisers that didn't like the kneeling and say they tried.

[Edward64]

... this is basically just a workplace conduct rule, and they wisely added the "if you don't want to stand, you can stay in the locker room" caveat to it.

Yup, good to have this option. Nice compromise.

[molson]

Overall, I think this is a good business move by the NFL. Worst case, players fight this and either overturn it (not sure how) or a bunch stay in the locker room to protest. Even then, they can look to the fans and advertisers that didn't like the kneeling and say they tried.

Or, the players will just continue to kneel and accept the fines. Which adds more power, visibility, and significance to the protests. (Which is a win for the protesting players, as the media coverage of the kneeling largely died down by the end of the season).

[Thomkal]

I'm pretty sure he's terrible, but would anyone really be shocked if he turned into a hall of famer now and Darnold ends up being a massive bust? It would be the most Jets-iest thing ever.


I would love that actually because my twin is a Jets fan, and I would have pretty much lifetime bragging rights over him :)

[Arles]

Or, the players will just continue to kneel and accept the fines. Which adds more power, visibility, and significance to the protests. (Which is a win for the protesting players, as the media coverage of the kneeling largely died down by the end of the season).
This was never going to die down until the NFL came up with a policy. The media would keep egging them on to protest. Now, with a policy, players have to try and make that decision. Sure, maybe a few like Michael Bennett who make a ton of money may kneel, but I doubt some nickel corner making 400K is going to kneel every week and pay the fine. I'm guessing most who want to protest will stay in the locker room. But that is a much different optic than seeing players openly kneel during the anthem. Over time, people will stop caring if a few star players wait an extra 5-10 min before coming out. And, at that point, the protests will stop because they won't be getting the publicity.

If you think the kneeling was going to stop without NFL intervention, you are just mistaken. There were too many "social crusaders" in the NFL who wanted to keep it going (again with the help of the sports media). Here's what's going to happen moving forward:

1. There will be a massive outcry by the sports media and other outlets about how awful this is. The NFL will be called clueless and stupid by the entire universe of twitter.
2. There will be a few who take a fine early on as a statement and some may even stay in the locker room most of the season.
3. By the end of 2018, this will start drifting into the background.
4. By the end of 2019, this will no longer be an issue.

Without NFL intervention, there was no real path to this no longer being an issue. The moment a cop killed a black kid, everyone would start kneeling again and it would start up again. Now, not every player can afford to do that when the next event happens and staying in the locker room doesn't have the same impact to the league as kneeling did. The NFL created a roadmap to getting out of the bad publicity of players kneeling. They basically invited them to stay in the locker room instead - which is a 100 times better for them than kneeling. It was the smart move.

[molson]

I didn't say I thought the kneeling would stop, just that the media coverage had died down. In the early weeks of the season, the pre-game shows literally featured a stadium-by-stadium analysis of what was going on at each sideline during the anthem. And then, just to make sure you didn't miss it, there'd be recaps of the protests during the game and at halftime. By the end of the season, it just wasn't covered in the same way. We were used to it, it was what it was, it wasn't newsworthy anymore. This move does nothing but give power to the protests and bring them back to the forefront of the games. Telling protesters they can't protest just emboldens protests. That's kind of the entire point of a protest - to defy something. They'll keep doing it, or they'll find new ways to protest. The NFL owners just were desperate to put their own moral stamp on this.

Edit: I'm wondering if this is the year we add anthem participation as a fantasy league stat. The NFL seems really determined to make sure the this continues to be a central issue in their league.

[miami_fan]

I wonder if a team can require all personnel to be on the for the anthem. Also, do they have to stand with their hands on their heart or can they raise the black gloved fist in the air?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Don't fine the worthless bastards, suspend them. Permanently.

Anything less, honestly, the NFL remains unfit to continue to exist.

[albionmoonlight]

The NFL has done a masterful job of re-defining these police brutality protests as anthem protests.

The players let the messaging get away from them.

[molson]

The NFL has done a masterful job of re-defining these police brutality protests as anthem protests.

The players let the messaging get away from them.

The original messaging, as stated by Kaepernick, was about refusing to show respect to the flag and the country. It was only later that other players tried to alter that original message. Then it really evolved to where we had these heavily choreographed team displays, which include coaches and owners and which professed to be about "unity" rather than being against anything in particular. So the messaging changed, but the form, time, and place of protest remained the same. Which definitely muddled the message. People protesting at the state capitol building down the street from me generally aren't going out of their way to insist that they aren't actually protesting some action or inaction of the state government.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The NFL has done a masterful job of re-defining these police brutality protests as anthem protests.

Or the players did a great job of conning some people into believing it was anything more than their fucking disconnect with reality, selling a comically false narrative in the process.

[Radii]

Don't fine the worthless bastards, suspend them. Permanently.

Anything less, honestly, the NFL remains unfit to continue to exist.

The one thing I can say about this proposed rule is that its done a great job pissing off the more vocal folks on both sides at the same time. Great job NFL.

[NobodyHere]

The NFL has done a masterful job of re-defining these police brutality protests as anthem protests.

The players let the messaging get away from them.

They've never really had it. It's not like these players are protesting in front of police stations. They're specifically targeting the national anthem.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," - Colin Kapernick

Colin says it right there that he doesn't want to show pride in the country which standing for the anthem represents.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The one thing I can say about this proposed rule is that its done a great job pissing off the more vocal folks on both sides at the same time. Great job NFL.

Well, I'm not any more disgusted by the NFL than I was last week.
I'm simply not particularly less disgusted by them either.

Until the league is purged of every single solitary SOB that took part in those "protests", and of every single owner that allowed them to take place, then any measures they take are insufficient.

This will be effective -- if it works as hypothetical intended -- on some with weaker constitutions who value watching football over rational behavior or ethics. I've yet to see a single person amongst my friends who walked away from the league last year say anything other than this being far short of what it takes to bring them back.

I'd say the league probably lost 1/3rd of the viewers among my extended circle last year, I simply think less of the ones who didn't walk away {shrug}

[miami_fan]

Well, I'm not any more disgusted by the NFL than I was last week.
I'm simply not particularly less disgusted by them either.

Until the league is purged of every single solitary SOB that took part in those "protests", and of every single owner that allowed them to take place, then any measures they take are insufficient.

This will be effective -- if it works as hypothetical intended -- on some with weaker constitutions who value watching football over rational behavior or ethics. I've yet to see a single person amongst my friends who walked away from the league last year say anything other than this being far short of what it takes to bring them back.

I'd say the league probably lost 1/3rd of the viewers among my extended circle last year, I simply think less of the ones who didn't walk away {shrug}

They trying hard to get YOU and yours back while accepting they will continue to lose those on the other side.

[miami_fan]

And it starts...

Jets chairman Christopher Johnson backs players’ right to protest | Newsday (https://www.newsday.com/sports/football/jets/national-anthem-christopher-johnson-fines-1.18700702)

[molson]

And it starts...

Jets chairman Christopher Johnson backs players’ right to protest | Newsday (https://www.newsday.com/sports/football/jets/national-anthem-christopher-johnson-fines-1.18700702)

He's also going to pay any fines for the players who want to protest by kneeling. Even though the Jets voted for this.

The NFL has made this much more complicated.

[SirBlurton]

Well, I'm not any more disgusted by the NFL than I was last week.
I'm simply not particularly less disgusted by them either.

Until the league is purged of every single solitary SOB that took part in those "protests", and of every single owner that allowed them to take place, then any measures they take are insufficient.

This will be effective -- if it works as hypothetical intended -- on some with weaker constitutions who value watching football over rational behavior or ethics. I've yet to see a single person amongst my friends who walked away from the league last year say anything other than this being far short of what it takes to bring them back.

I'd say the league probably lost 1/3rd of the viewers among my extended circle last year, I simply think less of the ones who didn't walk away {shrug}

I'm trying to determine if this an extreme viewpoint expressed for dramatic effect or if it's truly how you feel....can describe HOW MUCH less you think of the people who "failed" to stop watching? On a scale of "they're dead to me" to "won't be getting a Christmas card this year"?

I'm consistently mystified by the level of polarization in discourse in America these days...

It just seems like such an extreme view to take to want every person who protested to "rounded up" and at least we're only talking about "purging" from the league and not....existing...I think? And I'm glad they were just kneeling and not doing something truly awful like holding signs or writing subversive slogans on their socks and t-shirts...

[Edward64]

The original messaging, as stated by Kaepernick, was about refusing to show respect to the flag and the country. It was only later that other players tried to alter that original message. Then it really evolved to where we had these heavily choreographed team displays, which include coaches and owners and which professed to be about "unity" rather than being against anything in particular. So the messaging changed, but the form, time, and place of protest remained the same. Which definitely muddled the message. People protesting at the state capitol building down the street from me generally aren't going out of their way to insist that they aren't actually protesting some action or inaction of the state government.

Here's the timeline of events.

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/11/12869726/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-seahawks-brandon-marshall-nfl

Kapernick's $1M offer came about after he started getting heat for his publicity stunt but kudos to him for completing his pledge earlier this year.

To me, still a spoiled, multi-millionaire baby who decided to do something after his career was in decline. Its not what he said, its how he said it.

Glad he was not picked up (so far) and looking forward to see how he spends his time furthering his anti-discrimination goals while unemployed.

[Logan]

He's probably going to be just fine once the inevitable collusion settlement comes in. As hard as it typically is to prove, the NFL owners seem like they've done a great job in simplifying things in this case.

[Julio Riddols]

I've never understood why exercising the freedoms the flag stands for is anything but patriotic. It's silly, frankly, and one of the absolute least important things in the world right now. The only reason it was made into a big deal is because news corporations know that divisive shit is what really gets the public going anymore.

To oppress the freedom for someone to peacefully protest anything is the exact opposite of what this country and that flag stands for. Meanwhile, everybody is cool with things like holding a giant flag horizontally or having patriotic flag napkins despite those things being something expressly forbidden in U.S. flag code.

[NobodyHere]

To oppress the freedom for someone to peacefully protest anything is the exact opposite of what this country and that flag stands for. Meanwhile, everybody is cool with things like holding a giant flag horizontally or having patriotic flag napkins despite those things being something expressly forbidden in U.S. flag code.

So you're cool with employees engaging in political activities at work? Can I wear a MAGA hat or a BLM shirt to work or should the company be able to suppress my freedom of speech by making me adhere to a dress code.

[AlexB]

So you're cool with employees engaging in political activities at work? Can I wear a MAGA hat or a BLM shirt to work or should the company be able to suppress my freedom of speech by making me adhere to a dress code.

Different things. The NFL do enforce a dress code, so they can't wear BLM or MAGA kit. But I'm guessing your workplace wouldn't be able to force you to stand for the anthem if they tried.

[CU Tiger]

Different things. The NFL do enforce a dress code, so they can't wear BLM or MAGA kit. But I'm guessing your workplace wouldn't be able to force you to stand for the anthem if they tried.

You'd stand or be fired from my job.
If there was an anthem played for some weird reason.

[NobodyHere]

Different things. The NFL do enforce a dress code, so they can't wear BLM or MAGA kit. But I'm guessing your workplace wouldn't be able to force you to stand for the anthem if they tried.

Not really different things. By enforcing a dress code aren't they limiting my freedoms? I'm also sure they wouldn't want me to kneel in the middle of work either.

The point being that any employer generally restricts an employee's "freedom". Not sure why it should be different for the NFL.

[JPhillips]

But we all understand that there are limitations to what an employer can force employees to do. Can an employer ban kneeling in prayer? Can they force employees to wear Satanist t-shirts? Can they demand all the players offer salute and pledge loyalty to Satan before playing?

It would take the court system to decide whether this is across the line, but the idea that employees have to do what they are told clearly has limits.

[JPhillips]

Different things. The NFL do enforce a dress code, so they can't wear BLM or MAGA kit. But I'm guessing your workplace wouldn't be able to force you to stand for the anthem if they tried.

In this case different because the dress code is part of the rules that are agreed to in collective bargaining.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm trying to determine if this an extreme viewpoint expressed for dramatic effect or if it's truly how you feel....can describe HOW MUCH less you think of the people who "failed" to stop watching? On a scale of "they're dead to me" to "won't be getting a Christmas card this year"?

I think it shows a lack of character basically. Something that isn't unique, plenty of stuff in everyday life illustrates the amount of character people have/don't have. So it'd only be one more straw on the proverbial camel's back, taken in conjunction with the sum total of all I know about that given person.

It just seems like such an extreme view to take to want every person who protested to "rounded up" and at least we're only talking about "purging" from the league and not....existing...I think? And I'm glad they were just kneeling and not doing something truly awful like holding signs or writing subversive slogans on their socks and t-shirts...

Whaddya want me to tell you? I think the planet would be better off if anyone that #$%#$ stupid was no longer on said planet. At best, they're either stupid or crazy. At worst, simply plain evil. Either falling for an almost entirely false narrative or willfully participating in promoting such. The law, however, protects their right to remain on it therefore I won't suggest any action to the contrary. But if one of them dies in a random meteor strike, I'll consider it a small improvement in the state of the planet, smile for a fleeting moment & carry on.

[SirBlurton]

I think it shows a lack of character basically. Something that isn't unique, plenty of stuff in everyday life illustrates the amount of character people have/don't have. So it'd only be one more straw on the proverbial camel's back, taken in conjunction with the sum total of all I know about that given person.



Whaddya want me to tell you? I think the planet would be better off if anyone that #$%#$ stupid was no longer on said planet. At best, they're either stupid or crazy. At worst, simply plain evil. Either falling for an almost entirely false narrative or willfully participating in promoting such. The law, however, protects their right to remain on it therefore I won't suggest any action to the contrary. But if one of them dies in a random meteor strike, I'll consider it a small improvement in the state of the planet, smile for a fleeting moment & carry on.

You definitely don't owe me any kind of explanation...

I'm just taken aback that it could evoke enough emotion to think that wiping them from existence would be an improvement. For kneeling during a song before a game played for entertainment...which I know is kind of an over-simplification...but at least partially true.

And to call it potentially "evil" - I personally reserve that for crimes worse than kneeling or even promoting an arguably false narrative. How do they profit from it? Attention?

It's just a really bleak POV - in my opinion, it's a pretty heavy discounting of basic human value...but again, I have no right to comment on how you feel - it's just....surprising...

Anyway, thanks for answering with how you feel about - I'm trying to understand, not provoke.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anyway, thanks for answering with how you feel about - I'm trying to understand, not provoke.

I'm on board with that. That's the tone/approach I perceived in your question and why I tried to give at least one person's answer to it.

Honestly, I went for a bit milder response than my actual feelings on the matter but an honest answer nonetheless.

[Julio Riddols]

You know, I get the viewpoint of it when it is considered an employee-employer thing. On the other hand, these owners often employ people who are definitely doing worse things than kneeling for the national anthem and somehow that is way less of a headache. I really don't care either way if a player wants to profess that they believe the earth is flat or worship Xenu or wants to wear a MAGA hat on the sidelines, whatever. The players who do these things clearly are not representative of the beliefs of their entire team or the whole team would do it. I don't care really what kind of beliefs they want to express as long as they aren't harmful to anyone. I understand that some people do care though.

I guess ultimately I am just mad that this is being made into such a huge thing when there is so much more important shit to worry about.

[Edward64]

You know, I get the viewpoint of it when it is considered an employee-employer thing. On the other hand, these owners often employ people who are definitely doing worse things than kneeling for the national anthem and somehow that is way less of a headache. I really don't care either way if a player wants to profess that they believe the earth is flat or worship Xenu or wants to wear a MAGA hat on the sidelines, whatever. The players who do these things clearly are not representative of the beliefs of their entire team or the whole team would do it. I don't care really what kind of beliefs they want to express as long as they aren't harmful to anyone. I understand that some people do care though.

I guess ultimately I am just mad that this is being made into such a huge thing when there is so much more important shit to worry about.

The employer has provided for the "stage" and the employees are taking advantage of the "stage". If the impact was positive to the bottom line, then the employers would welcome it. In this situation, the impact is negative to their bottom line and don't see why the employers can't disallow or mitigate it.

I don't really care what employee's do on their own time but they are on the job in the stadium. Sure there are other employees that do worse things but they don't have the stage.

If some players want to protest, do it on their own time outside of football. Many of them have the time and resources to do so.

[stevew]

Edleman busted for PEDs, looks like testing has finally caught up to BBs East Germany style doping!

(Jk)

[NobodyHere]

I just can't believe that a member of the Patriot organization would cheat like that.

[NobodyHere]

Andrew Luck threw a football today!

[Shkspr]

Andrew Luck threw a football today!

He's one up on Christian Hackenberg!

[NobodyHere]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/06/15/police-kellen-winslow-ii-targeted-older-women-for-kidnapping-rape/

The paths people take in life are interesting sometimes. How the hell does one go from being a football player earning millions of dollars to robbing and raping old ladies?

[Thomkal]

I'm sure his lawyer will blame CTE

[Carman Bulldog]

I'm sure his lawyer will blame CTE

To be fair, there may be some merit to it, although based on this SI article (https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/06/16/kellen-winslow-rape-sexual-assault-charges-cte-defense) it's unlikely to be successful in California. I do find it odd that someone at the age of 34 would start committing these offences as described without some sort of checkered history. Winslow did some stupid stuff during his career. The "I'm a soldier" line, the motorcycle crash, drug possession, etc. I don't think any of those incidents are red flags for serial rapist of the elderly however. Just a really odd situation.

[stevew]

Jameis Winston should get way more than 3 games for attempting to molest his Uber driver. And Ronald Darby should get some form of punishment for lying about it.

*Granted the new information confirming that Winston was alone is from Brandon E Banks(not the mousy Redskins/CFL returner) who is serving a 15 year bid for rape

[albionmoonlight]

The general consensus when they were coming out was that Winston was slightly more talented than Marriota, but he came with the risk of doing stupid shit that would get him suspended or worse.

This seems to be one of the rare instances where things played out exactly like we thought they would.

[NobodyHere]

Ruh-roh

Police investigating after body discovered at home of New York Giants CB Janoris Jenkins (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23916802/police-investigating-body-discovered-home-new-york-giants-cb-janoris-jenkins)

[miami_fan]

Jameis Winston should get way more than 3 games for attempting to molest his Uber driver. And Ronald Darby should get some form of punishment for lying about it.

*Granted the new information confirming that Winston was alone is from Brandon E Banks(not the mousy Redskins/CFL returner) who is serving a 15 year bid for rape

Obviously there were a few aggravating or mitigating factors that forced the NFL to only give 3 games as opposed to the mandatory 6 games they would have given him per their zero tolerance policy :rolleyes:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/06/28/why-did-the-nfl-do-a-deal-with-jameis-winston/

[NobodyHere]

I think Winston promising not to appeal has something to do with only a 3 game punishment.

[albionmoonlight]

Cute story:

Eagles' Doug Pederson, Saints' Sean Payton made a bet; it will impact their matchup in Week 11 | NJ.com (https://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2018/07/eagles_doug_pederson_saints_sean_payton_made_a_bet_and_it_wi.html)

[stevew]

Seems like a good chance Shady has played his last NFL down. Barring some insane setup, he's done.

[stevew]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/07/10/lesean-mccoy-case-takes-another-strange-turn/

[Thomkal]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/07/10/lesean-mccoy-case-takes-another-strange-turn/


wow I was waiting for the "other shoe to drop" to comment on Shady because the full story wasn't out there yet. (and still may not be). Attacking his girlfriend would have been personal, but his child and dog too? So now it makes more sense that a "stranger" did it. He's certainly done in the NFL in either case.

[BishopMVP]

Only outcome that absolves McCoy is if she set up the assault herself to avoid being evicted from the house he owns, but it sounds much more likely he hired (or told) someone to go in and rob her. Whether he intended the assault to happen at that point or not, he should be done.

Brandon Browner also charged with home invasion etc on an ex-girlfriend.

In shocking news, Pac-Man Jones was also involved in an altercation at an airport, but apparently was the victim in his & even the airport spokesman is supporting him.

[Thomkal]

shocking that Jones was the victim :)

[albionmoonlight]

Only outcome that absolves McCoy is if she set up the assault herself to avoid being evicted from the house he owns, but it sounds much more likely he hired (or told) someone to go in and rob her. Whether he intended the assault to happen at that point or not, he should be done.

Brandon Browner also charged with home invasion etc on an ex-girlfriend.

In shocking news, Pac-Man Jones was also involved in an altercation at an airport, but apparently was the victim in his & even the airport spokesman is supporting him.

TMZ has the video. Jones definitely punches back when he could have walked away, but the airport employee (in uniform) was certainly the aggressor.

[Carman Bulldog]

wow I was waiting for the "other shoe to drop" to comment on Shady because the full story wasn't out there yet. (and still may not be). Attacking his girlfriend would have been personal, but his child and dog too? So now it makes more sense that a "stranger" did it. He's certainly done in the NFL in either case.

It's all a lot of conjecture at this point. I'm not saying the other shoe won't drop, but I don't think it has at this point. I know that the NFL is pretty quick to hand out suspensions, but it doesn't seem like there is anything really substantial here (yet).

[miami_fan]

Is McCoy still a productive RB? If he still is, then he will be fine.

[stevew]

Have you guys seen that lady's face?

Shady at best will get one of those administrative suspensions while this is being sorted out. His career is probably over

[Carman Bulldog]

Have you guys seen that lady's face?

Shady at best will get one of those administrative suspensions while this is being sorted out. His career is probably over

I saw the pictures. I thought this happened in Georgia and McCoy was in Florida at the time. That’s not to say he had no involvement, just that it’s not as cut and dry as Ray Rice on camera in an elevator.

[miami_fan]

NFL offensive lineman Richie Incognito named ambassador of anti-bullying organization Boo2Bullying (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24090452/nfl-offensive-lineman-richie-incognito-named-ambassador-anti-bullying-organization-boo2bullying)

[NobodyHere]

NFL offensive lineman Richie Incognito named ambassador of anti-bullying organization Boo2Bullying (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24090452/nfl-offensive-lineman-richie-incognito-named-ambassador-anti-bullying-organization-boo2bullying)

That's like Bristol Palin being an ambassador for an anti-teen pregnancy organization.

[Thomkal]

Miami Dolphins have new "Proper Anthem Conduct." Anyone who kneels during the national anthem will be suspended 4 games. Guess Miami will start 0-4 then after they have to forfeit their first 4 games...

[Johnny93g]

Miami Dolphins have new "Proper Anthem Conduct." Anyone who kneels during the national anthem will be suspended 4 games. Guess Miami will start 0-4 then after they have to forfeit their first 4 games...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DigSZtnVsAEA8Fs?format=jpg&name=small

With that said, if any sort of fine or suspension does become a rule for the Dolphins, as a Dolphins fan, i hope every single player kneels, or protests, every single game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Guess Miami will start 0-4 then after they have to forfeit their first 4 games...

More respectable start than allowing the oxygen wasters to act up on the company dime.

[Logan]

Amazing that a team would willfully adopt a policy that is literally guaranteed to divide its own fan base.

[NobodyHere]

What would you suggest to heal the divide?

[JPhillips]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DigzkKfVQAAiq8q.jpg:large

[Thomkal]

LOL

[Honolulu_Blue]

More respectable start than allowing the oxygen wasters to act up on the company dime.

These so-called "oxygen wasters" are what the NFL is built upon. These rich, billionaire owners only make money with their franchises because these young men are willing to sacrifice their bodies for the game. Yes, they get paid well for it, but the owners get paid even better. The NFL has built its legacy and fortunes on the carnage of young (primarily black) men's bodies. Once these guys are no longer of use they are largely discarded and forgotten. These players should have every right to use the NFL, the league built on their talents and bodies, to peacefully protest the injustices they and millions of other Americans face on a daily basis. The NFL owes them as much.

I know you feel the exact opposite and will never agree, but that's your thing. I've "known" you around here for a long, long time now and while I used to harbor anger frustration, I really just feel sad for whatever happened to you to make you so utterly and completely consumed by fear and anger. I know you don't want nor will accept my pity, but you have it. Like Yoda said: "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." After reading so many thousands of your posts over the years, your suffering is incredibly apparent.

All that being said, the NFL is ridiculous. They are such a pathetic, awful, disgusting, and poorly run organization. It's astounding how they continue to do the wrong each and every time there's an opportunity to do so.

[NobodyHere]

And if these millionaires want to push politics into an entertainment event, I like many others will simply change the channel.

[JPhillips]

And if these millionaires want to push politics I oppose into an entertainment event, I like many others will simply change the channel.

Fixed it for you.

The NFL partnership with DoD has always been political.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Fixed it for you.

The NFL partnership with DoD has always been political.

Seriously. The NFL has wrapped itself up with faux patriotism for years.

[NobodyHere]

The NFL partnership with the DoD is more commercial than political IMO.

[JPhillips]

DoD was always looking for a partnership that would provide positive PR for military policies and priorities. The NFL was happy to help in those efforts.

[NobodyHere]

That's pretty much the way commercials work.

[JPhillips]

I don't see the distinction. DoD had a political message that the NFL was happy to facilitate. Where are we disagreeing?

[NobodyHere]

I don't see the relationship between the DoD and NFL as a political one, I see it as a commercial one. The DoD pays the NFL for pro-military displays.

I don't watch entertainment events to be preached at by millionaires. I just want to be entertained and get away from political BS. I don't go to restaurants to hear rants by employees whether I agree with them or not. I just want some food.

[Radii]

I don't see the relationship between the DoD and NFL as a political one, I see it as a commercial one. The DoD pays the NFL for pro-military displays.

I don't watch entertainment events to be preached at by millionaires. I just want to be entertained and get away from political BS

That really feels like some active cognitive dissonance to me. Its totally fine to like one and not the other and to admit bias, IMO, go for it. But to not see the MASSIVE government sponsored patriotic displays including trotting out veterans and often mentions of veterans or wars by the announcers as being preached at by the government and the NFL, but seeing an individual kneeling as being forced to endure being preached at... that explanation simply does not sit straight with me.

[molson]

This was all dying down before the NFL decided to bring it back to the headlines for some reason.

This is going to be like the Occupy Wall Street protests that ultimately became about authority generally and the nature of protests. More players are going to want to get involved the harder the NFL pushes back, and the more it becomes a protest against rules against protesting.

[NobodyHere]

That really feels like some active cognitive dissonance to me. Its totally fine to like one and not the other and to admit bias, IMO, go for it. But to not see the MASSIVE government sponsored patriotic displays including trotting out veterans and often mentions of veterans or wars by the announcers as being preached at by the government and the NFL, but seeing an individual kneeling as being forced to endure being preached at... that explanation simply does not sit straight with me.

I guess I don't see a military display as political preaching.

This was all dying down before the NFL decided to bring it back to the headlines for some reason.

This is going to be like the Occupy Wall Street protests that ultimately became about authority generally and the nature of protests. More players are going to want to get involved the harder the NFL pushes back, and the more it becomes a protest against rules against protesting.

This wasn't going to go away on its own in the near future. The kneelers have no reason to stop and you can be damn well sure that Trump is going to draw attention to it during a mid term election season.

[NobodyHere]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2787304-vikings-ol-coach-ex-dolphins-raiders-hc-tony-sparano-dies-at-age-56

[NobodyHere]

This fails my smell test but I'll throw it out there anyways

https://nypost.com/2018/07/24/odell-beckham-jr-accused-of-trying-to-pay-woman-for-sex/

[Julio Riddols]

I think this upcoming lockout is going to be pivotal. The players have to come in unified and willing to never play in the NFL again if they are going to get a fair shake from the owners. That's going to be hard to pull off because it is way harder to get 1700 men to agree than it is to get 32 of them to. Weird how that divide sort of mirrors the one our country faces right now..

[albionmoonlight]

I think this upcoming lockout is going to be pivotal. The players have to come in unified and willing to never play in the NFL again if they are going to get a fair shake from the owners. That's going to be hard to pull off because it is way harder to get 1700 men to agree than it is to get 32 of them to. Weird how that divide sort of mirrors the one our country faces right now..

Also, the owners can stand a much longer lockout than the players. If the NFL stops for two years, they would all lose a ton of value, but they would all still be incredibly rich dudes.

The players have (1) a very short time when they can earn money as athletes, and (2) much smaller cash reserves.

I would suspect that after just a few missed paychecks, a lot of players will have trouble making house payments, etc. It simply isn't credible when the union says that the players would be willing to sit out an entire season.

[cuervo72]

I would suspect that after just a few missed paychecks, a lot of players will have trouble making house payments, etc. It simply isn't credible when the union says that the players would be willing to sit out an entire season.

Enter Vince McMahon...

;)

[NobodyHere]

Bad luck for the Giants.

Sam Beal likely out for year with shoulder injury - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000941962/article/sam-beal-likely-out-for-year-with-shoulder-injury)

[albionmoonlight]

Good Article by Witten:

Jason Witten: How Twitter has become NFL locker room poison (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24201240/how-twitter-become-nfl-locker-room-poison)

[bhlloy]

Jason Licht gets an extension. Because finishing last in the division 3 out of 4 years and having your #1 overall pick suspended for personal conduct is something to reward.

[NobodyHere]

NFL Preseason has started! And we already have a "Was that a catch" official replay.

[bhlloy]

Don’t forget the first ticky tack helmet rule, followed by a few that looked just as bad!

The HoF game would be a lot more enjoyable on the whole if they would stop interviewing the HoF’ers. Urlacher has the glassy eyed look you would expect of a guy who is the all time leading tackler for an NFL team.

[Coffee Warlord]

Oh my lord these helmet calls are ridiculous.

[bhlloy]

Hyperbole hot taek alert, but if they keep this up this might be the thing that finally finishes the sport off for me. There’s just no way you can make these calls in real time as the rule is written. You can see what they are truthful to do but it’s completely absurd.

That was a perfectly good football hit that got a 15 yard penalty because it sounded like a big hit.

[albionmoonlight]

Here's the thing, though.

The NFL wants these penalties to get attention and kind of inturrupt the flow of the game. They want them to annoy the fans enough to get people tweeting about it and calling in to sportstalk radio to bitch.

The NFL is facing a huge potential crisis with CTE. It needs to be seen as Doing Something about it. These penalties that are messing up your game? That's unfortunate, but we all understand that it's because the NFL cares right?

The Hall of Fame game was a great place for them to put it on display. And I am confident that you will see some high-profile penalties in the Week 1 Primetime games.

And, once the message has gotten out that the NFL is Doing Something because it Cares So Much, you will see the flags start to stay in the pockets.

[BishopMVP]

NFL training camp has officially started, as the Patriots signed a white WR (Eric Decker).

[bhlloy]

Apparently he’s definitely not Johnny Canadian Football

[JPhillips]

Crazy line from Deadspin:

This team has made nine first-round picks between 2011 and 2016, and with Coleman gone not a single one of those players is still on the roster.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Antonio Callway cited for traffic violation, possession, and driving on a suspended license?

I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you. And I'm sure the Browns are too, certainly couldn't have seen this coming or anything.

[Thomkal]

:::sighs at the Browns::: Is every draft pick doomed for failure?

[NobodyHere]

Well look on the bright side, at least Josh Gordon wasn't with him.

[NobodyHere]

Well that's a nice first run by Barkely

[Thomkal]

Well after one drive, Jets fans have decided that Darnold is going to Canton :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well after one drive, Jets fans have decided that Darnold is going to Canton :)

They're trading him to a semi-pro team ALREADY?

Geez, that's a little tough even by my standards.

[Thomkal]

^5 Jon

[Thomkal]

Not sure I'm ready to welcome him into Canton just yet, but Josh Rosen looked decent for my beloved Cardinals last night against the Chargers. 6/13 for 41 yards for no TD's and INT's. Probably needs to sit behind Bradford until he can throw down the field more.

[Thomkal]

Rosen gets his first TD, after having a fumble called back due to pass interference. Now I'm ready to welcome him to Canton :)

[bhlloy]

The penalties being called in this Vikes-Jags have been absolutely absurd. God forbid this continues into the regular season.

[PilotMan]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2791758-richard-sherman-rips-nfls-new-helmet-rule-calls-adjustments-impossible-to-do?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nfl


Gotta agree with him. It's impossible to do what they are asking. It's going to lead to so much frustration during the season. The whole concussion and revelation about the toll the game takes, and the changes that have resulted are the real reason why football is tanking. It really has nothing to do with players kneeling. I'm not sure there's any stopping it either.

[Ksyrup]

I really haven't been paying much attention to football this year yet, but the little bit I've seen and the way they are explaining the rule, it almost seems like it requires tackling by standing nearly straight up. Isn't that the only way you can tackle with your head up? Any kind of forward momentum tackle seems to require some element of the head to be lowered. It's kind of hard to lower yourself, moving forward, and not have your head down. The only way that's not a penalty is if you don't "initiate contact" with the head, and whether that happens seems like it is going to be a split-second occurrence that the tackler has almost no control over.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It really has nothing to do with players kneeling

While it isn't the only factor, you keep right on kidding yourself if you believe that.

But hey, whatever the case, so long as it continues its slide (hopefully right into the abyss where it belongs) I'm good with that.

[albionmoonlight]

There's the caveat that people talk a bigger game on social media than they live out. So people saying that they are BOYCOTTING the NFL FOREVER are not always being totally truthful.

However, based on my feed, the NFL really does seem to be fighting a two-front war, and the two fronts have nothing to do with each other, which can make it hard for it to know how to respond.

More and more of my left-leaning friends who are otherwise sports fans are giving up football due to CTE. These aren't my hippie-dippy friends who never liked football anyway but were happy to take an easy moral stand against it years ago when CTE came out. These are people who enjoy watching who just can't justify it to themselves anymore.

And more and more of my right-leaning friends and family are turning against it due to the police brutality/anthem protests. This is not just Jon, here. It's a pretty consistent discussion as the season approaches.

I guess one place to look to see which (if either) of these trends is actually doing something would be if there is some divergence between college and NFL football. Numbers down across the board would lean toward more of a CTE explanation, while NFL-specific declines might be more likely to be protest-related.

[PilotMan]

Hey Jon, the ratings were declining prior to it. Whatever factor it has, it's minimal. Let's say it becomes a total non issue today, no way ratings jump right back up on their own. It is the perception of your band of merry men though that completely believe they alone are sinking the mighty NFL.

[NobodyHere]

Hey Jon, the ratings were declining prior to it. Whatever factor it has, it's minimal. Let's say it becomes a total non issue today, no way ratings jump right back up on their own. It is the perception of your band of merry men though that completely believe they alone are sinking the mighty NFL.

The bolded part really isn't true. The kneelings started at the beginning of the '16 season. Of course it doesn't prove that kneelings are the cause of the decline but you can't really dismiss it as a factor either.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a4f82bdc32ae67b1a8b4790-640-473.png

[Honolulu_Blue]

More and more of my left-leaning friends who are otherwise sports fans are giving up football due to CTE. These aren't my hippie-dippy friends who never liked football anyway but were happy to take an easy moral stand against it years ago when CTE came out. These are people who enjoy watching who just can't justify it to themselves anymore.

I am in this camp. I am not sure if I am 100% in this camp, but I am pretty close.

I played football. I love football. I've been a fan of the college and pro games since I was a little kid and have always found the sound of a game in he background to be really comforting. But I am finding it harder and harder to watch and be comfortable with the brutal, vicious toll the game takes on these guys. When you combine that with how poorly the NFL treats its players once they're done playing and how horrible the NFL is, in general, with respect to domestic violence, faux patriotism, and pretty much everything else, I have never been less excited or interested in the NFL than I am right now. I haven't watched a single minute of pre-season football. I am not exactly sure what I'll do when the season starts.

[AlexB]

Simple answer to the CTE issue is take away the helmets and all the plastic pads (keep an element of the soft padding).

That way no-one will lead with their head, everyone will learn to tackle with their shoulder, immediately getting rid of 99% of head impacts.

It would change the game completely in both technique and highlight reel hits, but the current rules seem to be a half hearted attempt to address the issue that makes tackling almost impossible with the current equipment.

So the only alternative if things need to change is to change the equipment

[JPhillips]

No helmets would mean a lot more blood. I don't think that would help marketing even if the overall severity of injuries were to decrease.

[Kodos]

Put me in the left-leaning category of fans who has a harder and harder time justifying liking football in light of CTE and all of the crap that happens in big time college sports (see recent Penn State, MSU, OSU, Minnesota scandals, etc.) and the NFL (see Zeke Elliott and the endless list of women-beaters, etc.).

[PilotMan]

Concussion was eye opening, and I find it very hard to watch the big hits in the game. They make me cringe. Having said that, the advantages that the offense has now on the defense really has changed the game and not for the good. My own interest in the pro game has dropped substantially in the last few years. Only the college game, and really only because of NDSU, keeps my interest early on. I didn't get into the NFL last year until baseball season was completely done. Of course, all that could be attributed to the ebb and flow of my favorite teams over the years too. I'm like a .....oh look, squirrel! kind of fan.

[albionmoonlight]

No helmets would mean a lot more blood. I don't think that would help marketing even if the overall severity of injuries were to decrease.

It would make the game be safer while seeming more dangerous. Not what the NFL will do at all.

[bhlloy]

I really haven't been paying much attention to football this year yet, but the little bit I've seen and the way they are explaining the rule, it almost seems like it requires tackling by standing nearly straight up. Isn't that the only way you can tackle with your head up? Any kind of forward momentum tackle seems to require some element of the head to be lowered. It's kind of hard to lower yourself, moving forward, and not have your head down. The only way that's not a penalty is if you don't "initiate contact" with the head, and whether that happens seems like it is going to be a split-second occurrence that the tackler has almost no control over.

It's absolutely possible to make a good football tackle without standing nearly straight up, the issue is that is in a vacuum of a tackling drill and a real game is a million times more chaotic and bang-bang and there's just no way you can ever legislate that into a game. And then especially not ask an official to make that call in real time.

Really, my biggest issue is that whatever they said about this being a safety specific rule and it applying equally to offensive and defensive players it's just been a parade of penalties applied to defensive backs and linebackers, and it feels like this is another step in the crusade to add offense and make it easier to have superstar QBs and WRs that the league can market. Add that to subtle tweaks to the defenseless receiver and roughing the passer penalties that have seen a ton of real softies being called and I agree with PilotMan, it has really changed the game for the worse at this point.

Nobody wants to see players getting injured, but it feels like the league just wants it's marketable guys not injured and if you are a lineman or defensive player tough shit. You look at Jarvis Landry ending a guys career in 2016 and then not getting flagged or disciplined at all for doing the same thing in a fricking preseason game... shurg. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the NFL has less than honest intentions, but it does sour the intent of the new rules for me. If I thought they were genuinely interested in player welfare, I'd be a lot more apt to bear with new rules even if I did think they were impacting the game.

[Warhammer]

Simple answer to the CTE issue is take away the helmets and all the plastic pads (keep an element of the soft padding).

That way no-one will lead with their head, everyone will learn to tackle with their shoulder, immediately getting rid of 99% of head impacts.

It would change the game completely in both technique and highlight reel hits, but the current rules seem to be a half hearted attempt to address the issue that makes tackling almost impossible with the current equipment.

So the only alternative if things need to change is to change the equipment

I am in this camp. Not only what you said there, but removing the equipment forces players to use proper technique to bring someone down.

I am not sure about the blood being a detriment to marketing, we loved the blood back in the day, look at how Sam Huff and Dick Butkus are revered, I cannot think of a single picture where they did not have blood on their uniforms.

[albionmoonlight]

Also, whatever the breakdown of the short-term loss of interest is, the CTE issue is a bigger problem for the long-term health of the league:

Football's popularity continues to take a hit across Southland campuses (http://www.latimes.com/sports/highschool/la-sp-high-schools-sondheimer-20180819-story.html)

[cuervo72]

FWIW, when we were visiting a few weekends ago my FIL did mention he was watching less of the NFL because of the kneeling.

Of course, he also completely ignored and talked through a televised anthem for a sporting event we had on.

So I don't doubt that it has something to do with it; at the same time, I think the "outrage" is one of convenience.

[JPhillips]

I am in this camp. Not only what you said there, but removing the equipment forces players to use proper technique to bring someone down.

I am not sure about the blood being a detriment to marketing, we loved the blood back in the day, look at how Sam Huff and Dick Butkus are revered, I cannot think of a single picture where they did not have blood on their uniforms.

Football was a much less popular game than it is now. Some level of fans would be fine, but I think you're underestimating the mass media coverage of the bloody brutality of football.

[Edward64]

I really haven't thought much about the CTE issue but now that you guys have brought it up, it does seem weird that I enjoy watching people essentially knock /damage their brains.

I like college more than pro football, and definitely football more than baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer etc. But all in all, I don't live for football and can do without it. Given incentive (e.g. no football), I think I can get into soccer. Football may die a slow death as less and less kids play it and attendance decreases but tbh, it won't go away before I'm dead.

[Ksyrup]

I haven't really thought much about it. I have a far bigger issue with kids playing the game. That's where the attention needs to be IMO. Adults choosing to play the game in college or for a profession know what they are getting into. And I find this whole anti-football thing strange when UFC is now more popular than ever and I don't hear a peep about scaling back MMA., which is like if the NFL determined scoring based on the number of illegal head-to-head hits you could amass.

I've been losing interest in the NFL for years. The game is just more boring than college. And with the awful catch rule, the pass interference rule that incentivizes throwing bombs and hoping for some contact, and now all of these game-changing 15 yard penalties that include plays where a guy just gets hit hard and jars his head/neck, it feels like the outcome of too many games is being decided by rules and not players. It just sucks to watch.

The national anthem thing makes no difference to me, but then again, I'm not a faux outrage-seeking Trump supporter who thinks the flag only represents the military and the true meaning of patriotism is if you know the words to that God-awful, pandering Lee Greenwood song.

[JPhillips]

Another issue with removing helmets and padding is that it would open the league to an enormous liability problem. It wouldn't take long before they were sued out of existence for removing the "safety" from the game. Every injured player would have a ready to go lawsuit.

[bhlloy]

In the interest of fairness I guess I don’t disagree with either of the lowering the head penalties so far tonight. First one was clearly a guy headhunting and the second was textbook helmet to helmet that can cause bad injuries.

I just wish they would call it on the offense when egregious now as well, I guess?

[bhlloy]

In shock at Jeff Tripplette being on MNF as the new rules expert. I guess in addition to the nude pics of Goodell he also has them of somebody in power at ESPN.

[Ksyrup]

I didn't watch last night's game, because seriously - who the hell would watch that game, even in the regular season - but I hear Tessitore and Booger McFarland are part of MNF now? Yikes. You know the NFL sucks when ESPN recognizes it needs to try to turn it into college football. Tessitore would seem to have too much energy for an NFL game. And Booger... I guess he's the new Tony Siragusa? Who needs commentary from him?

Just wait until next year when Paul Finebaum is doing the halftime show to justify that big new contract.

[stevew]

In shock at Jeff Tripplette being on MNF as the new rules expert. I guess in addition to the nude pics of Goodell he also has them of somebody in power at ESPN.

Maybe he was the guy extorting Skipper (and Goodell?) Over cocaine?

[Ksyrup]

I dare one of the pbp guys to call Tripplette in for a rules explanation after a coin flip in OT to ask which side was called.

[Butter]

Monday Night Football team was atrocious. I don't like Tessitore, and Witten was awful. Booger is fine, but he is a college analyst.

Then to top all that off, Jeff Triplette came in and told an atrocious story about the time he blinded Orlando Brown in one eye. That was a great thing to highlight on the broadcast to remind us that he was totally not an inept official.

[albionmoonlight]

Speaking of CTE: Free Agent OL Richie Incognito Arrested (https://www.profootballrumors.com/2018/08/nfl-richie-incognito-arrested)

[QuikSand]

Mr Incognito... it's a Mr Belichcik holding on the line for you... would you like us to hold the phone up to your ear since you are in...ummm... confinement apparel?

[bhlloy]

Monday Night Football team was atrocious. I don't like Tessitore, and Witten was awful. Booger is fine, but he is a college analyst.

Then to top all that off, Jeff Triplette came in and told an atrocious story about the time he blinded Orlando Brown in one eye. That was a great thing to highlight on the broadcast to remind us that he was totally not an inept official.

Yeah, that was a special moment. I’m not sure whether he was prepped for it or not, but he answered it with all the enthusiasm you’d expect from a guy asked on prime time TV to remember the time he blinded a guy, basically ended his career and probably contributed to his early death from diabetes. Good times!