The 2018 World Cup

[JPhillips]

I hope Neymar and Thiago Silva are healthy enough to play the next match.

[MIJB#19]

Japan just wasted a good opportunity to take the lead.

And now they almost give a goal away by sloppy play near their own penalty area.

[Critch]

Belgium trying to force De Bruyne in as a defensive midfielder because nobody liked Naingollan so they left him home.

Only a matter of time til Belgium score, in my humble opinion.

[AlexB]

I hope Neymar and Thiago Silva are healthy enough to play the next match.

Let’s not carried away about Neymar - first and foremost let’s hope he doesn’t lose his foot, just walking will be a bonus, let alone playing again.

#prayforNeymar

[PilotMan]

Incredible poise and execution.

[NobodyHere]

Belgium was suppose to win right?

[kingfc22]

wow...

[PilotMan]

Incredible shot.


Japan is playing perfection right now.

[ISiddiqui]

Holy crap, Japan. I can't believe this is really happening right now.

[digamma]

This escalated quickly.

[AlexB]

Been very impressed by the #14 Inui in this match - he looks a very good player

[NobodyHere]

That's using your head...

[MIJB#19]

This escalated quickly.De-escalated now?

[PilotMan]

Man, you can't ask for much more in a soccer match.

[ISiddiqui]

Well Holy Shit the other way.

[NobodyHere]

https://media.giphy.com/media/FoUHKTJhoQU6I/giphy.gif

[MIJB#19]

Wow.

[AlexB]

Lukaku was brilliant there, drew the defence completely, twice within the space of five seconds

[cartman]

Japan hasn't been this shellshocked since Aug. 6th and 9th 1945

[kingfc22]

What a feint by Lukaku

[Vince, Pt. II]

What a bonkers match.

[AlexB]

What a feint by Lukaku

The run when de Bruyne had the ball before was just as good, if not better

[ISiddiqui]

Wow.

[MIJB#19]

At the 60th minute, I was sensing it could still end this way, but after Euro2016 where Belgium didn't show any resilience, Japan going up 3-0 was also a possibility. Most importantly a thrilling and enjoyable game. Hat off to both teams.

[PilotMan]

This match fully blew my mind. Holy fucking shit.

[Karlifornia]

Amazing match. Better than even Portugal/Spain, in my mind

[RainMaker]

Why doesn't FIFA do anything about the "injury" theatrics, post-game yellows, suspensions, mandatory time off the pitch, something? As a casual fan, the last twenty minutes of this match has been horrible to watch.

They don't care I guess.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Neymar after hearing the news Real Madrid didn’t place an offer for him <a href="https://t.co/tJYWtifbBG">pic.twitter.com/tJYWtifbBG</a></p>&mdash; ¹³Z.I.³³ (@ZinedinIsco) <a href="https://twitter.com/ZinedinIsco/status/1013906864487260160?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 2, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[QuikSand]

This match fully blew my mind. Holy fucking shit.

+1, watched the whole thing with my 5yo son, who is just starting to get into it a bit... so glad

[PilotMan]

Sweden are just shooting themselves in the dick right now. So many missed chances. Could be 3-0 right now.

[Butter]

How many times are guys going to fail to just hit a first time shot. You're just inviting guys to close you down by touching the ball in a different direction.

[kingfc22]

That shot was going straight to the keeper. Oof

[miami_fan]

Hard man went down kinda of soft there

[AlexB]

Henderson? Got a head to the chin! It would sting. Probably the right decison- on the edge of a red card, probably not quite though. Probably.

[AlexB]

When did South American football get so acrimonious though? Never been this bad before - Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, now Colombia just diving, moaning, more than playing the game.

They’ve got really good players! Just play the game! You’ll probably win!

[Critch]

Jordan Henderson's faking would make Neymar blush.

[AlexB]

Just seen a replay of Henderson getting chinned. Definite red card - you can see Henderson’s jaw and face compress like a boxer getting punched.

[bhlloy]

It's interesting - there seems to be way more of an emphasis with VAR on keeping players on the field rather than using it to give out red cards. That's what - the fourth incident now that is a clear red by the rules, and has been reviewed and nothing done.

I'm all for less players being sent off on these borderline incidents as it does ruin games. But it's another slippery slope argument and is going to look really bad the first time VAR is used for a deserved red card.

[BishopMVP]

Henderson? Got a head to the chin! It would sting. Probably the right decison- on the edge of a red card, probably not quite though. Probably.Yes, it stings. But I tend to reach for my chin after getting hit there, not both hands over my eyes & throwing my head backwards. (Though let's not exaggerate Critch - Neymar would've gotten 18 inches of air & been on the ground for 3+ minutes! :) ) If VAR is a thing going forward refs need to giving out yellows for embellishment too.

Ref cracking down to start the 2nd half. That's a tough yellow card, and now PK, but you had to adjust, and it certainly doesn't seem like Colombia is going to control their emotions.

[MIJB#19]

3 minutes of complaining about an undisputed penalty decision. *sigh*

[BishopMVP]

Though Henderson just got a cheap yellow too. Both teams doing dumb things.

[bhlloy]

Sanchez and Falcao should have been sent off there. I wish referees had the backing FIFA to just start handing out cards for that shit.

[AlexB]

Stones a little lucky there tbh. Falcao made a lot of it, but there was contact (a lot less than on Henderson, but there was a brushj

Colombia will probably start playing now, which will probably cause us more problems

[MIJB#19]

What else is on? Since the start of the second half there's barely been any action.

[tarcone]

Now thet are going to start taking dives. Sigh

[Ksyrup]

Terrific - everyone's on edge, so now the faking injury gets even more exaggerated than normal. This is so frustrating to watch.

[miami_fan]

Now thet are going to start taking dives. Sigh

The question is which team?

[BishopMVP]

Sanchez and Falcao should have been sent off there. I wish referees had the backing FIFA to just start handing out cards for that shit.Only 4 red cards so far (including that last second one in Sweden/Switzerland that was completely meaningless), after only 10 last world cup, and many more in the few prior WC's. Not sure if it's a specific directive to avoid red's or just the way the game is trending and a hesitancy to give them with everything being video reviewed in slo-mo from 5 different angles.

[BishopMVP]

Terrific - everyone's on edge, so now the faking injury gets even more exaggerated than normal. This is so frustrating to watch.
You'd think the VAR system would reduce the incentive to exaggerate contact.

6 Yellow's in the last 25 minutes. We'll have 22 Yellow's & 12 minutes of stoppage time at this rate.

[MIJB#19]

Oh Lingard, why throw yourself into the grass if you get a chance to shoot on goal for the 2-0? *shake head*
Edit: hmmm, he did got slightly touched?

[AlexB]

It wasn’t a penalty, Lingard needs to be careful not to get a 2nd yellow

[Ksyrup]

You'd think the VAR system would reduce the incentive to exaggerate contact.

6 Yellow's in the last 25 minutes. We'll have 22 Yellow's & 12 minutes of stoppage time at this rate.

Why not just review the entire game after the fact and assess appropriate penalties? If they're so scared about deciding the game by making split-second decisions and want to limit down time during reviews, just dole out the penalties going forward.

[MIJB#19]

This second half reminds me of Portugal-Netherlands in 2nd round of World Cup 2006, which was quite possibly the most shameful game in World Cup history. The Portuguese kept provoking the Dutch players. It worked, they managed to got 2 players sent off, but also lost 2 players of their own in the process. Play was halted more often than the ball was rolling.
Colombia is playing the Portugal role, England the Oranje role, except that back then Portugal was defending a 1-0 lead, not trying to time wasting themselves into losing 1-0.

[miami_fan]

My oh my

[MIJB#19]

So, 30 more minutes of this. At least we've seen a bit of football these last 10 minutes.

[JPhillips]

There's always time for England to lose on a shootout.

[AlexB]

I can’t say we deserved to win in 90, but they certainly didn’t deserve to equalise. Horrible team throughout, but it’s just about worked for them

[BishopMVP]

Neither of these teams deserves to move on, let alone be a borderline favorite to make the final. Senegal lost out due to "fair play", just bring them back. :)

[BishopMVP]

Aah, the double flop & roll!

[AlexB]

Ashley Young was a little bit naughy there.

[AlexB]

Game has changed. Colombia have ended 90 with extra attacking players on the field, we’ve got an extra defensive player. This is not going to be fun

[AlexB]

I’d be tempted to put Loftus-Cheek on for Dier just to get more movement in the centre again. We have no passing options from defence, and are losing possession too easily

[MIJB#19]

Dang, England has become the flopping team. That plays into Colombia's strength.

[MIJB#19]

Two nervous goalkeepers.

[AlexB]

Much as I love Jamie Vardy for Leicester, don’t think he’s quite good enough at international level.

Weirdly it’s the other way round for Harry Maguire - gets caught out a lot at Leicester, looks good for England.

[AlexB]

Fuck.

[Critch]

http://i67.tinypic.com/2cnujbd.jpg

[AlexB]

Lol :D

[MIJB#19]

Nice save!

[MIJB#19]

Bye bye, Colombia!

[AlexB]

Well, that was unexpected. At least I think a reward for attitude, or maybe more accurately Colombia’s attitude got its just rewards

[MIJB#19]

Still in the running:
Uruguay vs France
Brazil vs Belgium
Sweden vs England
Russia vs Croatia

[BYU 14]

http://i67.tinypic.com/2cnujbd.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, this feels so good, I am sitting here with tears running down my face right now! All those chances we missed over the years and Pickford, who looked nervous as hell came up clutch when he needed to.

Man that was intense.

[bhlloy]

Colombia successfully made me root for England at a major tournament, which is something I never thought would happen in my lifetime.

FIFA needs to do something about all the play acting and dissent at this World Cup. It might be hyperbole, but it really feels like the game is losing it's soul a little bit. I doubt they care as long as the money keeps rolling in but at some point you are turning off the target audiences you are trying to reach.

[JPhillips]

Whoever comes out of the right side is going to be a huge story.

[Drake]

Are you flippin' your shit yet, Critch?

(Asking for a friend.)

[Critch]

Are you flippin' your shit yet, Critch?

(Asking for a friend.)

No, as soon as they meet a good team, they're out. I guess it's better to be lucky than good though.

[kingfc22]

Im happy as long as Brazil and Russia get eliminated.

[Buccaneer]

Im happy as long as Brazil and Russia and England get eliminated.

Amended.

[SirFozzie]

Penalties is a horrible way to decide the winner of a World Cup Knockout Game.



The problem is, it's much less horrible than asking teams to play till a winner, or replays, or pulling names out of a hat/coin toss (Spain missed out on the 1954 World Cup due to drawing lots, and a 1968 European tournament SEMI-FINAL (Soviets vs Italy) was decided in a coin toss.

[tarcone]

The announcers were saying that PKs require skill and talent. Which is a better choice than coin flips or drawing lots. Which makes sense.

I feel like it has a lot of tension. I remember watching the Womens cup in the late 90s, I believe, when the USA won on PKs. That was must watch TV. I was standing in a crowd at a mall watching on a TV a store had put out.

[Mota]

My thought is that the game needs to be played. If they can't score, give them more space to work in. Drop a player every 5 minutes until a goal is scored. If they can't score when it's 5 on 5, they don't deserve to win.

[PilotMan]

My thought is that the game needs to be played. If they can't score, give them more space to work in. Drop a player every 5 minutes until a goal is scored. If they can't score when it's 5 on 5, they don't deserve to win.


From a physical standpoint, that's an abomination of a rule. Make these guys run for 2 hours, then make them cover the entire field, as the team, without the benefit of the, you know, team.

[Marc Vaughan]

My thought is that the game needs to be played. If they can't score, give them more space to work in. Drop a player every 5 minutes until a goal is scored. If they can't score when it's 5 on 5, they don't deserve to win.

That would be a farce and also penalise teams if they had to use substitutes early on in a game due to injury when the other team might have been able to save theirs for extra time, force the teams to play in such a way which doesn't correspond to normal tactics, 5v5 on an 11-a-side pitch would be kick and run not a real game etc.

There is no 'great' way to finish a tie which is a draw tbh, they've tried coin tosses in the past and US leagues tried an alternative to penalties years back where a player dribbled from the half-way line ... that fell out of vogue and penalties while horrible as the best of a bad bunch.

[miami_fan]

Penalties is a horrible way to decide the winner of a World Cup Knockout Game.



The problem is, it's much less horrible than asking teams to play till a winner, or replays, or pulling names out of a hat/coin toss (Spain missed out on the 1954 World Cup due to drawing lots, and a 1968 European tournament SEMI-FINAL (Soviets vs Italy) was decided in a coin toss.

This. I only find penalties disappointing when the teams have been attacking back and forth for the entire 120 and the only reason the game is tied is due to spectacular goalkeeping, spectacular defense or a moment of brilliance. In other words, a game where it is neither team deserves to lose. I don't think we have had one of those in the World Cup.

[stevew]

Wouldn't it be better if they just did corners. Take one defender off each time. First score wins.

[SirFozzie]

Honestly, I think if you're going to play, you keep it 11 v 11, but after extra time, all limits on substitutions are released.

These players have all ran 6+ miles over 2 hours, that's why I think that at somepoint you have to say enough is enough.

[Ksyrup]

What is the historical conversion rate for PKs in the top leagues?

I've started watching a lot of soccer the past 3 years or so, and PKs in general are the most frustrating part of the game to me. One, because it's so hard to score and the penalty for committing a foul in the box is so harsh that it throws off the balance of the game, IMO. And two, due to that imbalance, refs refuse to freaking call legitimate fouls in the box, which further depresses scoring opportunities throughout a game. There's no reason why defenders should be allowed to hug, pull, and tackle offensive players except that refs don't want to call a foul in the box and give a free goal off a corner or set piece 75% of the time.

The other thing with PKs - and this is the lifelong basketball fan in me talking - if a penalty is called, the person who drew the penalty should be the one who takes the PK.

My other big gripe with soccer is bailing out defenders by allowing them to kick the ball back to the goalie whenever they are anywhere in the vicinity of being pressured. I'd like to see defenders be forced to actually show some skill. If the goalie is outside the box, fine, but otherwise the goalie can't receive an intentional ball from his own player if he's in the box. As it stands, between the size of the pitch and the offside rule, defenders don't have any incentive to be skillful in the face of pressure.

[ISiddiqui]

My other big gripe with soccer is bailing out defenders by allowing them to kick the ball back to the goalie whenever they are anywhere in the vicinity of being pressured. I'd like to see defenders be forced to actually show some skill. If the goalie is outside the box, fine, but otherwise the goalie can't receive an intentional ball from his own player if he's in the box. As it stands, between the size of the pitch and the offside rule, defenders don't have any incentive to be skillful in the face of pressure.

Oh man, you should have seen pre-1992 soccer. It was that year where they made the rule that a goalkeeper couldn't handle a backpass. Before that they could pick up a ball passed right to them.

Though I think that rule goes far enough. The goalie is somewhat of a field player as well as someone able to use hands in the box (provided no backpass). And if you banned pass back to the GK, then defenses would just put a sweeper like defender back there for pressure release, making an even more defense-focused game.

[Ksyrup]

I'm sure someone far more tactical-minded than me (which is, like, everyone) would figure out a way around that rule, but what it is now is just frustrating to watch. You see hockey goalies handle the puck all the time, but the ice is so small that there is some inherent danger in that. With soccer, it takes a terrible screw-up for the back pass to go wrong. Otherwise, it's just an easy way to short-circuit any kind of potential break away on a 1v1 or 2v2 pressure situation. It wouldn't be as huge an advantage if the pitch were smaller or the offsides rule wasn't what it is.

[ISiddiqui]

Otherwise, it's just an easy way to short-circuit any kind of potential break away on a 1v1 or 2v2 pressure situation.

Well yeah. That's by design.

You don't want teams so scared of defender mistakes that soccer strategy tends towards Route 1 again. Generally, passing it back to the keeper allows for playing it out of the back strategies to flourish, which leads to more attractive soccer.

[Ksyrup]

I get it. I'd prefer the excitement of the occasional steal/break away. A well-executed run of play emanating out of the back that results in a legitimate scoring opportunity is fairly rare.

I'm learning, but there are certain things about the game that just don't make sense to this North American sports viewer.

[PilotMan]

A well-executed run of play emanating out of the back that results in a legitimate scoring opportunity is fairly rare.




In American soccer, yes, this is true. But not for the world as a whole. In fact, it's one of the reasons that the US hasn't been successful on the world stage. Watching a well developed team, be able to work out of the back, work the ball back and forth with a push up the field, where it might take 20 of more passes just to work it into the box. Keep possession, create chances that ultimately lead to a goal. That's soccer in it's purist form, and to the uneducated eye, it's easy to miss how it all goes together.

[ISiddiqui]

20 or more passes is a bit overstating it in this post-tiki-taka stage. Far more teams are playing more direct, and focusing on counter-attacking or gegenpressing. Meaning, while playing it out of the back is important, if you are getting to 20 passes, you may have lost your opportunity (or the opposition is parking the bus and you are moving it around looking for an opening).

[RainMaker]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NeymarRolling?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NeymarRolling</a> is all the rage these days. Absolutely unreal advertisement from KFC South Africa ����<a href="https://t.co/5MqGJkDB6L">pic.twitter.com/5MqGJkDB6L</a></p>&mdash; Jack Grimse (@JackGrimse) <a href="https://twitter.com/JackGrimse/status/1014862194918477824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 5, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[digamma]

I looked up the exchange rate. It would be $2.21 here.

But great ad.

[whomario]

One thing, maybe to give an analogy: You still want the other team to play it to their Goalkeeper and then force him to do a long pass. It is basically soccer's version of forcing the other team to punt.

The thing with these high pressure tactics, they are generelly used more at club level than in international play. Simply because they take a lot of time and often quite specific personnel to pull of consistently, something you don't have with these National Teams who play rarely and in often changing starting 11. Plus the schedule is pretty demanding and coming at the tail end of an already long season.
Going from my own experience it is a lot easier to put together a very good or even great defense sitting deep than it is to even get a somewhat reliable high press.



The other thing with PKs - and this is the lifelong basketball fan in me talking - if a penalty is called, the person who drew the penalty should be the one who takes the PK.



God no ... I mean, from the soccer fans perspective the basketball way of handling it is equally ludicrous, i can assure you ;) It's supposed to be a punishment and give the attacking team the best chance at scoring in a situation that occurs only once (if at all) most games. Not comparable at all with Basketball.

Maybe a more general response, adding to the already talked about aspects in a more general way:

First off i hope you stick with it, i have rarely met people that got over the initial barrier of "this is booooring" (and you seem to have done so, just judging by your questions) and didn't get more and more hooked as time progressed and they got to see more and more games.

I think that the main problem that soccer always had and always will have in terms of "translating" to the american way of viewing/understanding sports is the difference in perspective in terms of what constitutes "stuff is happening".

And it isn't purely the lack of scoring either, although that certainly is a part of it, but the way it is structured as one long and (semi)continuous play that is interrupted at random intervals and not scheduled ones. In Basketball you are by rule guaranteed a true "event" every 24 seconds for the most part, in football and baseball you break the game down into neat little plays that you can view/analyse/break down one at a time.
Hockey might be closest in terms of the 'general concept' of it all (free flowing with no real restraints on game flow), but the small playing surface and inherent madness of massive blokes on skates (puposely using hyperbole here) is kinda an advantage when it comes to appealing on a second to second basis ;)

Soccer really is unique in a lot of ways, be it the running clock, the fact that the team without the ball is responsible for getting it back or that the team with the ball is at complete liberty when and when not to shoot.

The thing is, a lot of things are still highly rehearsed and a lot of neat, little plays (and touches) occur all the time between two good teams. But it simply isn't something that pops out to somebody new to the sport, the way that there are things that appeal to total newcomers to american sports even in games that an avid viewer would classify as bad and/or boring. (well, maybe not Baseball)

[cuervo72]

Play a specified number of minutes without the goalies. :)

[Karlifornia]

Play a specified number of minutes without the goalies. :)

Germany already tried this

[tarcone]

France in white. Oh, the irony.

[MIJB#19]

Uruguay vs France is one of those games where I have to choose between a dirty team and a team containing a player that was involved in an absurd transfer. And the winner might end up facing a team with both.
Go Belgium!

[tarcone]

I wonder why the NFL doesnt try and pick up some of these soccer players. I guess not enough money to be a FG kicker. Probably make a lot more playing soccer.

[whomario]

ÖlI wonder why the NFL doesnt try and pick up some of these soccer players. I guess not enough money to be a FG kicker. Probably make a lot more playing soccer.

Also not exactly comparable in terms of 'challenge'/involvement, trotting out for 5 kicks a game and otherwise sitting around is not exactly going to appeal to high level players or even solid first/2nd division guys

The former NFL Europe had a few former soccer players (not World class but f.e 2 former Bundesliga players) in their early 40s as Kickers, so maybe thatd be an approach with some merit.

[kingfc22]

Game over.

[JPhillips]

This game isn't over until Suarez goes mad.

[PilotMan]

Finally too. Uruguay has really been missing Cavani today.

[MIJB#19]

Finally too. Uruguay has really been missing Cavani today.I haven't missed him at all.

[PilotMan]

I haven't missed him at all.


+1

[kingfc22]

I wonder what Neymar has in store today for his master class in acting.

[MIJB#19]

I wonder what Neymar has in store today for his master class in acting.
Fake blue eye from an Alderweireld shoulder.

[PilotMan]

Brazil has missed 2 solid chances here early at least.

[EagleFan]

Belgium! Tired of the Neymar flops.

[MIJB#19]

That was lucky. :)

[PilotMan]

Brazil could have 3 goals now. Instead they only have 1.

[Izulde]

Brazil could have 3 goals now. Instead they only have 1.

Sounds like way too many of my FM games.

[AlexB]

Belgium! Tired of the Neymar flops.

+1.

Brazil haven’t been as bad as the other South American teams, but let’s get the cheats out of the tournament.

[PilotMan]

What a hammer!!!

[JPhillips]

It's amazing that Brazil hasn't gotten a goal yet. If they keep playing this isn't over.

[Abe Sargent]

I am rooting for Belgium to win it all, so yeah, Belgium!

[bhlloy]

Assuming no comeback, France Belgium could either be one of the most thrilling games of counter attacking football ever or a total grind with penalties to decide it.

[Arles]

Belgium is the best I've seen at a jailbreak after an opponent's corner. They killed Japan with it and just got their second against Brazil using that counter attack.

FYI, if you have live betting, Brazil is at about 10:1 to win right now. Not a bad hedge if you have any futures on Belgium (as I do), but it's also a solid bet given the pressure Brazil has been applying.

[HomerSimpson98]

this has been one helluva entertaining first half

[AlexB]

Why hasn’t he booked him then?

[AlexB]

Witzel with perhaps the worst acting so far.

When you want to decry the South Americans, Mbappe and Witsel make it more difficult... no need.

[ISiddiqui]

Game on!

[PilotMan]

If Brazil lose, it's on them. They had all the chances early, the own goal and then some. They have to own this one.

[PilotMan]

Good for Belgium! That's a quality game and a quality result.

[Abe Sargent]

And THERE WE GO!!!

[Buccaneer]

WOOOOOO!!!!!! Brazil is out, South America is out!!

[Arles]

Eden Hazard, Fellaini <gasp> and Courtois were key in Belgium holding on. Heck of an effort by Brazil, though. Another great game to watch, but I'm glad Belgium won.

[ISiddiqui]

And the World Cup has now become another Euros. Granted, being held in Europe it was bound to go that way, but alas.

[AlexB]

And the World Cup has now become another Euros. Granted, being held in Europe it was bound to go that way, but alas.

Maybe they’ll concentrate on playing football next time - when they do that, like in the last half hour, they’re pretty good at it.

Time of a Delirium Tremens in Belgium’s honour - it’s a positive it’s all European IMO the way most of the rest of the world has approached the tournament.

[AENeuman]

France and Belgium?! I predict it will end in stalemate despite a fierce battle over the neutral zone

[ISiddiqui]

Maybe they’ll concentrate on playing football next time - when they do that, like in the last half hour, they’re pretty good at it.

I mean when you see Mbappe's dive in today's match (or England's diving against Colombia for that matter), it's hard to necessarily claim they are the only ones who are 'playing football'.

[JPhillips]

France and Belgium?! I predict it will end in stalemate despite a fierce battle over the neutral zone

I was thinking it would end in a German victory.

[PilotMan]

I was thinking it would end in a German victory.


That's what they thought too.

[bhlloy]

I mean when you see Mbappe's dive in today's match (or England's diving against Colombia for that matter), it's hard to necessarily claim they are the only ones who are 'playing football'.

One dive per game does not equal an entire tournament of histrionics, flopping and melodrama. Not to excuse what Mbappe, Henderson or Maguire did because there's no place for it, but hardly the same frequency.

[miked]

I'm in Ireland for the summer and we were all in this bar in Oughterard, a little town outside of Galway a bit. The place was glued and erupted every time Belgium scored. Not a lot of love there for Brazil. I'm certain if I were there tomorrow for the England game, everyone would be wearing Sweden kits.

Alas, looks like I'll be driving around that time,.

[ISiddiqui]

One dive per game does not equal an entire tournament of histrionics, flopping and melodrama. Not to excuse what Mbappe, Henderson or Maguire did because there's no place for it, but hardly the same frequency.

The whole "one dive per game" is the strange thing here. It's kind of like the "only a few bad apples" of football ;). England fell quite a bit against Colombia (Southgate likes to actually talk about how England are being more like other teams in that sort of thing). Maguire was the only one focused because generally he doesn't seem the type (that's more Ashley Young's sort of thing among the English defense). And France (esp Pogba and Mbappe) like to go down easy quite a bit. And Lucas Hernandez (of France) even admitted he flopped a few times against Australia to get Matthew Leckie tossed (https://wwos.nine.com.au/2018/06/18/22/26/world-cup-2018-lucas-hernandez-dive-socceroos-matthew-leckie - that is an Aussie site, but there are some quotes from Hernandez).

[Chief Rum]

The whole "one dive per game" is the strange thing here. It's kind of like the "only a few bad apples" of football ;). England fell quite a bit against Colombia (Southgate likes to actually talk about how England are being more like other teams in that sort of thing). Maguire was the only one focused because generally he doesn't seem the type (that's more Ashley Young's sort of thing among the English defense). And France (esp Pogba and Mbappe) like to go down easy quite a bit. And Lucas Hernandez (of France) even admitted he flopped a few times against Australia to get Matthew Leckie tossed (World Cup 2018: French fullback Lucas Hernandez admits to diving against Socceroos (https://wwos.nine.com.au/2018/06/18/22/26/world-cup-2018-lucas-hernandez-dive-socceroos-matthew-leckie) - that is an Aussie site, but there are some quotes from Hernandez).

Although I don't think it should get out of hand, I can understand the strategic value of driving, and yes, everyone does it--this has been going on in soccer for decades.

Where I jump off is in two instances. One, where someone does a particularly terrible acting job. I am 100% for video review and suspension for following matches if the ref doesn't throw him off the pitch right there. And two, the ridiculous writhing pain nonsense like Neymar did. That's just a mockery of anyone who actually does get hurt. I believe anyone who pulls that act should be instantly replaced by the red as "too hurt to continue." That would stop it right there.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't disagree with post match penalties, esp for terrible acting jobs; my point was that Neymar (or Brazil) isn't the only one to do it. This is just one (most egregious) example from today from France:

https://clips.clippit.tv/vxbwra/720.mp4

And it seems a lot are saying I'm glad those divers from Brazil are gone, where France just gets a little chuckle and no one is agitating for them to get beaten.

[ISiddiqui]

An interesting question, how low would the ratings be for a Belgium-Croatia Final? :D

[AlexB]

I mean when you see Mbappe's dive in today's match (or England's diving against Colombia for that matter), it's hard to necessarily claim they are the only ones who are 'playing football'.

Agree about Mbappe (referenced it above), the only dive England did was Maguire.

Would much prefer he hadn't, but he immediately waved his finger to say no pen, and compared to how Colombia played the game and dived throughout, it was nothing. Definitely shouldn't have done it, but in the face of the way Colombia approached the game...

[ISiddiqui]

Going down easy then ;). Henderson while hit with the head acted like a sniper shot him. And Kane tends to go down a bit easy to get the foul and happened a few times against Colombia (he generally is fouled at the time though) - although on the penalty he didn't have to because the Colombian defender mounted him anyways. edit: I forgot about the Trippier one in extra time (Streamja - Simple video sharing (https://streamja.com/lXP3)). And Ashley Young too (https://twitter.com/L_E_D1980/status/1014369427826073604)

Though most England fans tended to speak of it as "England wised up to Colombia's tricks" which is a fun way of saying embellishing contact ;). Not that it's necessarily wrong, but Neymar also tends to embellish contact a good 75% of the time. He just embellishes it a lot.

[AlexB]

Not sure how you interpret “shouldn’t have done it” in that way, although agree about Ashley Young (although he didn’t actually dive against Colombia)

I don’t mind players going down when they’re actually fouled, even if they aren't neccessarily forced to ground, but going to ground under little to no contact (Maguire, Mbappe included) is bang out of order and should be stopped. As should pretending to be injured, trying to get players booked, intimidating the ref, etc.

In both games you’ve referred to, there was one, maybe two instances where England & France were in the wrong, there were dozens on the other side. The ideal is for none at all, but the tone was set by Colombia and Uruguay - highlighting England and France is not incorrect, but not the right focus.

And how Henderson is getting stick I really don’t get. Let me come and do an uppercut on your chin with my head and see if it hurts or not. He was chinned!

[AlexB]

Dola, the fact that Critch, a Scot who has repeatedly said anyone but England, ended up rooting against Colombia (I doubt it actually got to cheering for England!) tells you all you need to know as to who were the offenders in that game

[Critch]

Dola, the fact that Critch, a Scot who has repeatedly said anyone but England, ended up rooting against Colombia (I doubt it actually got to cheering for England!) tells you all you need to know as to who were the offenders in that game

That wasnt me, I was supporting Colombia to the end.

[bhlloy]

I believe that was me, and I’m Welsh rather than a kilt-wearing tight fisted alcoholic, thank you very much :D

But yeah. One thing does not equal the other. Unfortunately everybody exaggerates contact and looks for fouls in today’s game, and it’s not something to be proud of. But if you think what England and France have done on a few occasions is remotely equal to the embarrassment of Neymar rolling around any times somebody has got near him or what Colombia did in that second round game, I’m really not sure what to tell you. I suspect you are just being obtuse to try and prove a point to be honest.

[MIJB#19]

But yeah. One thing does not equal the other. Unfortunately everybody exaggerates contact and looks for fouls in today’s game, and it’s not something to be proud of. But if you think what England and France have done on a few occasions is remotely equal to the embarrassment of Neymar rolling around any times somebody has got near him or what Colombia did in that second round game, I’m really not sure what to tell you. I suspect you are just being obtuse to try and prove a point to be honest.+1
I enjoyed the play of Colombia and Uruguay in recent World Cups, but I ended up cheering against them regardless of opposition, I felt they took it a step too far this tournament. The same with Neymar.
(Re-reading the 2014 world cup thread at FOFC, there wasn't this much complaint about the antics of these teams and players like this tournament.
Edit: Or not. Flopping and dirtiness was a point of discussion for the third group stage matches.)

[Abe Sargent]

Let's go Sweden and Croatia!

[Abe Sargent]

An interesting question, how low would the ratings be for a Belgium-Croatia Final? :D

I would love to see that guaranteed to see another club crack into the WC Win. I would force everyone to shut up and watch.

[MIJB#19]

An interesting question, how low would the ratings be for a Belgium-Croatia Final? :DExactly the same? It's the World Cup final.

[larrymcg421]

Exactly the same? It's the World Cup final.

You really think Belgium-Croatia would get the same ratings as Brazil-England?

[Abe Sargent]

You really think Belgium-Croatia would get the same ratings as Brazil-England?


There's hoping! It would be historical.

[MIJB#19]

You really think Belgium-Croatia would get the same ratings as Brazil-England?Yes. It's the World Cup final.

[MIJB#19]

That should have been 2-0 there.

[AlexB]

Pretty poor game, but not really surprising.

Two well organised teams, but neither with any great creativity, but along with Russia the weakest sides in the QF draw.

[PilotMan]

Russia/Croatia just screams meteor.

[larrymcg421]

Yes. It's the World Cup final.

Yes, the World Cup is a big event and would get a certain expected rating no matter what, but it's silly to argue that there would be zero people more interested based on certain teams that would appear in the final. Let's take it a step further. Are you arguing that if the USA somehow made the final, there wouldn't be higher ratings?

[MrBug708]

I keep expecting the last subs to be in before the 75th minute, to get the development ratings in #fm

[PilotMan]

Sweden can't catch a break in this one. No way England should have gotten beat at the back like that with a 2-0 lead in the 72nd minute.

[miami_fan]

Very efficient performance by England. They have had complete control of the match. Well done.

[MIJB#19]

Yes, the World Cup is a big event and would get a certain expected rating no matter what, but it's silly to argue that there would be zero people more interested based on certain teams that would appear in the final. Let's take it a step further. Are you arguing that if the USA somehow made the final, there wouldn't be higher ratings?
The World Cup is not a big event, it's the biggest event. I would argue that global ratings would decrease if the USA made the final. Number of viewers should increase in the USA and at the same time could decrease in USA-phobic countries, most likely downgrading global ratings. Give or take, there will be about 1000M people watching the final. Things would change if China or India were to make the final...

[AlexB]

Very efficient performance by England. They have had complete control of the match. Well done.

Wouldn’t say complete control, Pickford had to make three good saves! But we deserved to win, true enough.

However, I think we’ve run our race, assuming Croatia beat Russia.

[BYU 14]

Wouldn’t say complete control, Pickford had to make three good saves! But we deserved to win, true enough.

However, I think we’ve run our race, assuming Croatia beat Russia.

For me the turning point was that save Pickford made off the header early in the second half. England seemed energized after that and after Alli got the eventual dagger Pickford had a couple of other solid moments. He was on today for sure and was more animated than he had been in earlier matches.

I am not cashing in on Croatia, I think we have a shot. On a side note, Sterling can get down the wing at will but is the worst finisher on the team, he couldn't have finished a happy meal today.

[nilodor]

The World Cup is not a big event, it's the biggest event. I would argue that global ratings would decrease if the USA made the final. Number of viewers should increase in the USA and at the same time could decrease in USA-phobic countries, most likely downgrading global ratings. Give or take, there will be about 1000M people watching the final. Things would change if China or India were to make the final...

+1

[AlexB]

Hello! What a goal!

[MIJB#19]

That took much longer than against Denmark, Croatia's equalizing is getting slower.

[Galaril]

+1

Yes I agree with this and was my thought when I read that.

[Abe Sargent]

You really think Belgium-Croatia would get the same ratings as Brazil-England?


There's hoping! It would be historical.

[JPhillips]

Someone check the bank account of the Croatian GK.

[PilotMan]

How has Croatia not ended this game already? This might be the worst game they've played this tournament.

[AlexB]

Who knew Corluka was still playing?!

[AlexB]

Dola, and who knew he was olny 32?

[PilotMan]

Is it too late to still be pulling for meteor?

[MIJB#19]

Oh my...

[PilotMan]

Disaster of defending that by Croatia. How were all those guys just standing there watching that?

[MIJB#19]

Huge chance for Croatia there.

[AlexB]

For me the turning point was that save Pickford made off the header early in the second half. England seemed energized after that and after Alli got the eventual dagger Pickford had a couple of other solid moments. He was on today for sure and was more animated than he had been in earlier matches.

I am not cashing in on Croatia, I think we have a shot. On a side note, Sterling can get down the wing at will but is the worst finisher on the team, he couldn't have finished a happy meal today.

Ok, agree with you! We have no reason to be scared of either team. They don’t have reason to be scared of us either, but I’m more confident than two hours ago!

[PilotMan]

I'll be stunned if the keeper for Croatia even stops 1. This is now Russia's to lose with the injury.

[MIJB#19]

Ok, agree with you! We have no reason to be scared of either team. They don’t have reason to be scared of us either, but I’m more confident than two hours ago!England should be confident, the winner of this game will come off exhausting back to back overtime games with penalties.

[MIJB#19]

Terribly taken penalty kick by Smolov.

[PilotMan]

Ok, I'm stunned. I'll take that.

[kingfc22]

That was a disastrously poor attempt

[PilotMan]

That was way too close for a finish for Croatia.


Happy for Russian sadness.

[Arles]

This World Cup continues to add the drama. What an effort by the Croatia keeper on the penalties with a bad hammy.

For the question about a Croatia-Belgium Final: would the super bowl get worse ratings if it was Tampa Bay-Jacksonville? It’s an event regardless of the teams - even Denver-Carolina got good ratings. In the US, people who like soccer will watch and I doubt England-France vs Croatia-Belgium would change much for the non soccer fans out going fishing. In the rest of the world, everyone will watch either way.

[whomario]

Terribly taken penalty kick by Smolov.

That's the sort of thing that gets you a dozen whacks on the head on amateur level, what a damn joke. I mean, there is no shame if kicking a bad one. Shit happens. But that ? That was close to self-sabotage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This World Cup continues to add the drama. What an effort by the Croatia keeper on the penalties with a bad hammy.

For the question about a Croatia-Belgium Final: would the super bowl get worse ratings if it was Tampa Bay-Jacksonville? It’s an event regardless of the teams - even Denver-Carolina got good ratings. In the US, people who like soccer will watch and I doubt England-France vs Croatia-Belgium would change much for the non soccer fans out going fishing. In the rest of the world, everyone will watch either way.

So the rest of the world watches the WC for the commercials? File that under stuff I never realized I guess.

[MrBug708]

Is calling for a re-play on a PK for a keeper leaving the line early kinda like calling carrying over in basketball?

[whomario]

Is calling for a re-play on a PK for a keeper leaving the line early kinda like calling carrying over in basketball?

Yeah, pretty much. Although imo part of the issue is people (and the media) misunderstanding/misrepresenting the rule, at least based on what a buddy working as a ref in the german 3rd division (just high enough to get the top level coaching) told me. The rule does state he needs to stay on the line, but the interpretation is: As long as the Keeper has part of one foot on the line it's considered legal.

Obviously it does still happen, but not nearly as often and as blatant as it's made out to be or looks. After the Croatia-Denmark and Russia-Spain PK an english paper (dailymail) made a big headline of it basically happening on all the PKs (15 of 19) and then showed pictures and to my understanding many were actually legal and those that weren't were early off by a split-second.

An example that looks blatant, but actually is fine when using the interpretation I and apparently every GK has been given:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/07/02/10/4DD68D4C00000578-5908581-The_misdemeanour_was_also_visible_in_Moscow_as_Akinfeev_battled_-a-12_1530525486113.jpg

If you look at it closely, basically every goal keeper does this now whereas not too long ago you actually saw people encroaching with small baby stepts with both feet to get aways with it. Since they all get the current interpretation on the rules before the season and in fact before the WC via the coaches being briefed by top referees, i assume that stepping forward with 1 foot while dragging the other has been green lighted.

[MIJB#19]

So the rest of the world watches the WC for the commercials? File that under stuff I never realized I guess.Let's just stick to the abstract comparison of apples and oranges to understand the concept of fruit and not get too concerned about the color and taste of the seeds within the fruit. Not to mention that in some places in the world people get spoilt by being able to buy the fruit with the seeds or the entire core already removed. :D

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, pretty much. Although imo part of the issue is people (and the media) misunderstanding/misrepresenting the rule, at least based on what a buddy working as a ref in the german 3rd division (just high enough to get the top level coaching) told me. The rule does state he needs to stay on the line, but the interpretation is: As long as the Keeper has part of one foot on the line it's considered legal.

Obviously it does still happen, but not nearly as often and as blatant as it's made out to be or looks. After the Croatia-Denmark and Russia-Spain PK an english paper (dailymail) made a big headline of it basically happening on all the PKs (15 of 19) and then showed pictures and to my understanding many were actually legal and those that weren't were early off by a split-second.

An example that looks blatant, but actually is fine when using the interpretation I and apparently every GK has been given:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/07/02/10/4DD68D4C00000578-5908581-The_misdemeanour_was_also_visible_in_Moscow_as_Akinfeev_battled_-a-12_1530525486113.jpg

If you look at it closely, basically every goal keeper does this now whereas not too long ago you actually saw people encroaching with small baby stepts with both feet to get aways with it. Since they all get the current interpretation on the rules before the season and in fact before the WC via the coaches being briefed by top referees, i assume that stepping forward with 1 foot while dragging the other has been green lighted.


It's very confusing.. I was always taught the keeper is not allowed to move forward off the line, period. Having one foot still on the line makes no difference if he's moved forward with his other foot, he can only move side to side until the ball has been kicked. The problem is, AR's never seem to raise their flags like they should, which is what should have been done in this situation, IMHO.



"moves off the goal line before the ball is kicked"

[ISiddiqui]

would the super bowl get worse ratings if it was Tampa Bay-Jacksonville?

Actually yes. SuperBowl ratings tend to ebb and flow based on the teams. For example look at the ratings of Super XXXII (1999) and XXXIII (2000). XXXII was Packers v. Broncos, and XXXII was Broncos v. Falcons. XXXII had a rating of 44.5 and a share of 67. XXXII had a rating of 40.2 and a share of 61.

And the ratings for the following SuperBowl XXXIV (Rams v. Titans) was 43.3 and 63.

Obviously the teams matter.

And if you look at it in the US context. People tend to watch the World Cup to root for a) the US and then b) the Country from whence their ancestors came. There are lot of people who trace their ancestry to Germany. Spain is also pretty big. England and France would be too. Belgium & Croatia? I doubt it.

[Arles]

Actually yes. SuperBowl ratings tend to ebb and flow based on the teams. For example look at the ratings of Super XXXII (1999) and XXXIII (2000). XXXII was Packers v. Broncos, and XXXII was Broncos v. Falcons. XXXII had a rating of 44.5 and a share of 67. XXXII had a rating of 40.2 and a share of 61.

And the ratings for the following SuperBowl XXXIV (Rams v. Titans) was 43.3 and 63.

Obviously the teams matter.
Not really, though. All Super Bowls get a crazy rating. Over the past 20 years, the Super Bowl has been rated between 40.4 (Rams-NE) and 47.1 (Pats-Seahawks). But most have been between 42 and 46 (st Dev of around 2.5 from the mean). Plus, the Broncos-Panthers (46.6) did basically the same rating as the highest Pats-Giants (47). It's not like Denver and Charlotte are anywhere near Boston and New York in terms of network eyes. If the Super Bowl was Tampa-Jacksonville, I'm guessing the rating would be between 43 and 46 - much like most Super Bowls over the past 10 years. It's not like the game would get a 30 or 35 rating if it's a bad matchup and a 50 if it's a great matchup. It's margins (3-4 rating points).

And if you look at it in the US context. People tend to watch the World Cup to root for a) the US and then b) the Country from whence their ancestors came. There are lot of people who trace their ancestry to Germany. Spain is also pretty big. England and France would be too. Belgium & Croatia? I doubt it.
Two of the 5 highest games in the US have been Uruguay-Portugal (9,689,000) and Croatia-Denmark (9,022,000) - not exactly countries with a ton of US ancestry. The World Cup is becoming a bigger event (even within the US) and I expect its ratings will continue to rise when they games aren't shown live at 2 AM, 5 AM or 7 AM. The time difference has been the biggest factor, IMO. If these games were live at 7 PM each night, the US rating would be much higher.

[ISiddiqui]

Not really, though. All Super Bowls get a crazy rating. Over the past 20 years, the Super Bowl has been rated between 40.4 (Rams-NE) and 47.1 (Pats-Seahawks). But most have been between 42 and 46 (st Dev of around 2.5 from the mean). Plus, the Broncos-Panthers (46.6) did basically the same rating as the highest Pats-Giants (47). It's not like Denver and Charlotte are anywhere near Boston and New York in terms of network eyes. If the Super Bowl was Tampa-Jacksonville, I'm guessing the rating would be between 43 and 46 - much like most Super Bowls over the past 10 years. It's not like the game would get a 30 or 35 rating if it's a bad matchup and a 50 if it's a great matchup. It's margins (3-4 rating points).

They may all get above 40 ratings points, but there is a bit difference between 40.4 and 47.1. There is a reason the NFL was freaking out that Super Bowl ratings dropped 3 points from last season.


Two of the 5 highest games in the US have been Uruguay-Portugal (9,689,000) and Croatia-Denmark (9,022,000) - not exactly countries with a ton of US ancestry. The World Cup is becoming a bigger event (even within the US) and I expect its ratings will continue to rise when they games aren't shown live at 2 AM, 5 AM or 7 AM. The time difference has been the biggest factor, IMO. If these games were live at 7 PM each night, the US rating would be much higher.

Those are combined ratings (with Telemundo) and Croatia-Denmark is actually the 6th highest rated match before the QFs. The Top 5 are Mexico-Germany (11.9mil), Mexico - South Korea (11.8mil), Mexico - Brazil (10.1), Germany - Sweden (9.3mil). As you can imagine, Telemundo numbers were higher than Fox's for Mexico and elevated the Uruguay - Portugal match (well, in addition to Ronaldo). Obviously the ratings continue to rise, and people will watch more when it is more convenient, but people do care about match ups. US and Mexico will get higher ratings. Stars will get higher ratings. Germany and England get higher ratings.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Those are combined ratings (with Telemundo) and Croatia-Denmark is actually the 6th highest rated match before the QFs.

A very solid point as the only meaning for the combination of English & Spanish language broadcasts is for hype purposes.

For advertisers -- for whom the ratings exist -- they're completely separate entities & have no bearing on each other whatsover (unless someone is trying to justify their ad buy).

[MIJB#19]

Stars will get higher ratings.Apologies for snipping your argument down to one line.

I think that's an argument to think there's little to worry about then. We've lost C. Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar, but the hypothetical Belgium-Croatia matchup could give us plenty of second tier players like E. Hazard, De Bruyne, R. Lukaku and Modric.

[Arles]

I think 4 things matter for US viewership:
1. Is the US involved? (If so, high ratings)
2. Is Mexico involved? (If so, pretty good ratings)
3. Is the game on a timeslot where most people can see?
4. Is the game competitive and somewhat compelling?

After that, I don't think it matters if the team is England, Belgium, Uruguay, France etc. Heck, Croatia had some of the highest rated games because they were on the 11 AM (west coast) time slot and both games went to penalties. It's not like there's a massive eastern block contingent in the US ramping up for the Croatia-Russia game (and the biggest star in the game was Luka Modric) - but it had much higher ratings than England and France had. Of course, France and England were both in the earlier time spots (IMO, the biggest determining factor for non-Mexico games in this World Cup).

Whether it is England-France or Croatia-Belgium, the rating will be similar. The final will be at 8 AM (west coast) on Sunday morning, so that will be a hit no matter what. But, how competitive the game is will be more of a determining factor for ratings than the teams.

[ISiddiqui]

I think that's an argument to think there's little to worry about then. We've lost C. Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar, but the hypothetical Belgium-Croatia matchup could give us plenty of second tier players like E. Hazard, De Bruyne, R. Lukaku and Modric.

Emphasis added. I am focusing more on Americans watching the World Cup, but De Bruyne doesn't have the same pull as Christiano Ronaldo, unless you are a Man City fan.

[ISiddiqui]

After that, I don't think it matters if the team is England, Belgium, Uruguay, France etc. Heck, Croatia had some of the highest rated games because they were on the 11 AM (west coast) time slot and both games went to penalties. It's not like there's a massive eastern block contingent in the US ramping up for the Croatia-Russia game (and the biggest star in the game was Luka Modric) - but it had much higher ratings than England and France had. Of course, France and England were both in the earlier time spots (IMO, the biggest determining factor for non-Mexico games in this World Cup).

At this point, it's the soccer fans watching. The finals hope to get a lot of casuals interested. For comparison, the 2014 Final had a combined viewership of 27.3mil. Of that 17.3mil was ABC and 9.2mil was Univision. For the casuals, the narratives and the teams and players matter. You know that FOX is absolutely hoping England or France make it (or both for that matter) due to all the people who have that ancestry who will jump on (as you saw a ton of people who had German grandparents or something jump on board for the 2014 final).

[Arles]

Maybe if the game were at 2 PM on Sunday (ie, NFL). But, I don't think the switch of England for Croatia and France for Belgium is going to make people in the Midwest skip church to watch a 10 AM game or people out west to watch an 8 AM Sunday game if they weren't already really into soccer.

The Russia timeslots have pretty much pushed casual fans out (except for the handful of 2 PM EST games on the weekend). The only team in the pool that could have changed this was Mexico. After them, I can't see any other team mattering much for ratings at the Sunday timeslot the Finals will be (and that includes England and Germany).

[MIJB#19]

90 minutes away from the should be final.

[BishopMVP]

Pretty good game so far. Belgium controlling play so far, but some good clearances & Lloris with a great save to keep it 0-0, and France is looking very dangerous on their few counters.

[AlexB]

France had the better of the game feom your post till half time. Good game so far!

[Arles]

Yeah, France is playing a little like Belgium and hanging back in a defensive shell waiting for counter chances. The difference has been Belgium missing their chances and Kevin De Bruyne looking pretty awful. You can really see how well France defends.

[BishopMVP]

I'm surprised France hasn't pulled Giroud much earlier. They're not using him as a hold up forward today & he's been useless finishing counters. Got away with a foul on Hazard at the edge of the box there too.

(BTW, that reaction by Umtiti to getting hit in the chin is the natural reaction... Not Henderson's exaggerated flop while reaching for his eyes.)

[BishopMVP]

FIFA concussion protocol still making the NFL look good.

[cartman]

Il rentre à la maison.

[ISiddiqui]

BTW, that reaction by Umtiti to getting hit in the chin is the natural reaction...

Mbappe, on the other hand...

[kingfc22]

I was telling my co-workers that I thought Croatia would need to score first and in the first half to have a chance in this game as their legs would likely be dead much earlier than England based on the back-to-back extra time matches.

Now that they are down early I'd imagine the task is going to be very difficult.

[BYU 14]

Halfway home, I am pretty much going to be worthless at work for the next hour!

[miami_fan]

Oh for the USMNT to find a player like Sterling somewhere in the world. He is so good.

[BishopMVP]

Mbappe, on the other hand...Yeah, Neymar's drawn the most ire, but for the breakout star of the tournament Mbappe has had his share of acting jobs. I also really don't understand why the referee blew Belgium/France dead at exactly 6 minutes if you had to give Mbappe a yellow card for time wasting in the corner - I would've added at least an extra minute for a player pulling that stunt with the ball.

England up 1-0 exactly how we all thought it would happen a month ago - with Harry Kane missing multiple chances in tight & Kieran Trippier scoring off a free kick! ;)

[whomario]

Oh for the USMNT to find a player like Sterling somewhere in the world. He is so good.

Wait, really ? For me he is pretty much all style, no substance. At least for the National Team. Amazing natural talent, but makes the wrong decision (pass/shoot/dribble) with insane regularity, holds onto the ball too long and abysmal finishing to top things off. No coincidence he has like 5 Goals/Assists in the last 2 years for England.

[ISiddiqui]

Sterling has great movement off the ball, which tends to create space for other players. His finishing for England hasn't been the best, but I'd argue that's a small sample size - he did have 23 for Man City this year.

[BYU 14]

Wait, really ? For me he is pretty much all style, no substance. At least for the National Team. Amazing natural talent, but makes the wrong decision (pass/shoot/dribble) with insane regularity, holds onto the ball too long and abysmal finishing to top things off. No coincidence he has like 5 Goals/Assists in the last 2 years for England.

Agree, a real mixed bag at the national level, great at stretching a defense and making runs, then its a coin toss in the final 3rd and he has been abysmal finishing in this tournament. Great natural talent though, I think his mental game is just lacking.

[BYU 14]

This fucking ref is losing control of this match.

[Arles]

I'll also chime in as not a fan of Sterling. He's like a Tasmanian Devil (but with flapping arms instead of the normal tornado). He has great pace and shows solid technical ability, but he rarely capitalizes unless its served on a platter to him (and he even misses his fair share of those). If I were looking for an England player for the US, I'd much rather find a Harry Kane, Dele Alli or even a Marcus Rashford. They could use someone who can create chances from next to nothing and then finish.

[Arles]

Sterling has great movement off the ball, which tends to create space for other players. His finishing for England hasn't been the best, but I'd argue that's a small sample size - he did have 23 for Man City this year.
I think that's a clear outlier for him, his previous four seasons were 7, 6, 7 and 9. Maybe he's figured it out, but I'd like to see him do that again before I believe it.

[kingfc22]

England looking for the bell to save them at this point.

[Thomkal]

It's been fun "watching" this match through twitter tweets. All the excitement when England scored, then doom and gloom when Croatia did. And bashing the refs of course :)

[ISiddiqui]

I think that's a clear outlier for him, his previous four seasons were 7, 6, 7 and 9. Maybe he's figured it out, but I'd like to see him do that again before I believe it.

And recall during that time frame, Man City bought him from Liverpool for over 40mil pounds (and according to transfermarkt he's now worth 90mil Euros). They saw quite a bit of talent in his positioning and play. And has started in the vast majority of matches as Man City have become a juggernaut. Though generally he's far more comfortable as a winger (which is his usual position for club)

[Coffee Warlord]

It'll be somehow poetic if this goes to penalties.

[Thomkal]

I think all of England might go into heart failure win or lose :)

[kingfc22]

Honestly no clue how Croatia looks as fresh as they do right now.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... Mandzukic after that injury in first ET!

[Arles]

They are not too far from Romania - maybe they are all vampires :D

[Coffee Warlord]

English suicide watch.

[Arles]

I have fairly significant futures on both France and Croatia (plus Croatia in Calcutta). So, it's nice to not stress as much for the finals. Still, what a cup it has been and I will be pulling for Croatia to pull off their crazy run!

[BYU 14]

English suicide watch.

What a fucking gut punch that was, damn I felt good about this match. On the bright side this is a young English squad and they should have a good run in them for 2022. (I sound like the soccer version of a Cubs fan now)

[Arles]

Yeah, this is one of the first likeable English teams in a long time. They have a bright future for sure.

[Critch]

Best team won, and that makes me happy.

[miami_fan]

Sterling has great movement off the ball, which tends to create space for other players. His finishing for England hasn't been the best, but I'd argue that's a small sample size - he did have 23 for Man City this year.

This. Whenever I see him for club and country, I see a player that drags defenders all over the pitch. His movement creates so much space for his teammates. His improvement since Pep’s arrival is obvious. I don’t think he is the finished product as of yet. Sure, Kane, Ali, and Rashford would be great additions. I would love to see a player with Sterling’s skillset playing for the US.

[AlexB]

Agree, a real mixed bag at the national level, great at stretching a defense and making runs, then its a coin toss in the final 3rd and he has been abysmal finishing in this tournament. Great natural talent though, I think his mental game is just lacking.

Good summary. Definite talent, questionable end product. Really made a difference in the first half today, vanished in the second.

[AlexB]

Best team won, and that makes me happy.

They did. Our commentators were watching a different game to me: thought we started great, then after 15-20 they started getting into the game, from half an hour onwards they controlled things.

We are what we thought we were (as I wrote after the first game) - decent, work hard, young and can improve, but lack creativity.

Did better than we thought we would do, but got beat by the two ecent sides we played.

[Critch]

They did. Our commentators were watching a different game to me: thought we started great, then after 15-20 they started getting into the game, from half an hour onwards they controlled things.

We are what we thought we were (as I wrote after the first game) - decent, work hard, young and can improve, but lack creativity.

Did better than we thought we would do, but got beat by the two ecent sides we played.

Yeah, early on until the Kane miss it was looking good for England but the longer it went on the more Croatia took control, the deeper England got, and the more it looked like Croatia would win barring a long ball breakaway to a speedy striker.

England really needed Dele Alli to step up, without him midfield isnt great and there's no depth (Jake Livermore was a backup, how?). 2016-17 season Dele Alli looked like he'd be a real top class player, but last season was a step backwards and the World Cup wasnt good. Without him there was nobody to hold the ball and take control, or be a threat.

And Leicester need to sell Maguire now, his stock will never be higher.

[ISiddiqui]

In the end I think it was simply that the more talented central midfield won. Henderson, Alli, and Lingard got outclassed by Modric, Rakitic, and Brozovic (who was simply fantastic!). That allowed Croatia to control the match after the first 30 mins.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[AlexB]

Something was wrong with Kane too. He did nothing, but more worryingly had very little movement.

With it being the first time Sterling really stretched the defence, wonder whether Kane was injured and the plan was for him to sit in the hole, use Sterling to get the ball to stick really high up, then hope Kane, Alli, Lingard could get a chance when they caught up - we were noticeably more long ball, and the ball just didn’t stick up front in the scond half and extra time -
Lovren and Vida dominated .

Something was different, maybe it was the pressure and we reverted to type a little, maybe it was the other team’s midfield forcing us that way, but even the attitude was different - from the off we were moaning at the ref way more, despite the fact I thought he was mostly decent.

[whomario]

Couple awesome pictures taken after the 2:1 goal from Mandzukic, by a photographer they kinda plowed down:

https://www.11freunde.de/sites/default/files/styles/11f_fl_gallery_node/public/mediapool/gallery/gettyimages-996502534.jpg?itok=M5ePrpwa

https://www.11freunde.de/sites/default/files/styles/11f_fl_gallery_node/public/mediapool/gallery/gettyimages-996502172.jpg?itok=KkCh3xfm

https://www.11freunde.de/sites/default/files/styles/11f_fl_gallery_node/public/mediapool/gallery/gettyimages-996501104.jpg?itok=BeobG-8-

[ISiddiqui]

An interesting analysis by Michael Cox (who writes the blog Zonal Marking):

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-england-vs-croatia-gareth-southgate-tactics-tactical-immaturity-final-a8443526.html

He blames Southgate for not moving away from the 2 striker formation when England was getting overrun in MF (esp when Vrsaljko was running wild).

Cox also thought Sterling was England's most dangerous player in the match.

(He also did France v. Belgium: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-france-vs-belgium-analysis-nacer-chadli-exposed-defence-attack-tactics-a8441666.html )

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[BishopMVP]

Amusing to see English commenters complain about they lost due to technical limitations of their players and tactical naivete. I'm sure if I kept going I would've seen some comments complaining about their domestic leagues inability to produce quality players too :)

[AlexB]

Amusing to see English commenters complain about they lost due to technical limitations of their players and tactical naivete. I'm sure if I kept going I would've seen some comments complaining about their domestic leagues inability to produce quality players too :)

Don’t think you would or did. Lack of creativity is not the same as lack of technique.

Technically they were fine, and tactically they fine - Southgate built a system that minimised weaknesses and maximised strengths (mostly pace & set pieces)

Granted there didn't seem to be a Plan B, but Southgate’s first tournament cycle, and he only worked on the formation after qualifying, so time for further developments.

As for producing quality players, there has been a little lull after a period producing a number of quality players: the fact that the older generation didn’t perform well as an England team is irrelevant to the fact that they were individually quality players.

While the ‘success’ of the team was largely overstated in this tournament, the future is encouraging, a semi final is not to be sniffed at regardless of how the draw worked out, and the age group teams have won a number of tournaments in the past 12 months, another sign the academies are producing quality players.

[Arles]

An interesting analysis by Michael Cox (who writes the blog Zonal Marking):

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-england-vs-croatia-gareth-southgate-tactics-tactical-immaturity-final-a8443526.html

He blames Southgate for not moving away from the 2 striker formation when England was getting overrun in MF (esp when Vrsaljko was running wild).
This is getting a little too nitpicky. I think the issue was their mental outlook after scoring the first goal - not a tactical one. Once England was up 1-0, they seemed content to just defend and counter. Combine that with a higher sense of desperation by Croatia to keep possession and I think that's the reason. Whether they had 1 striker, 2 strikers or 0 strikers, I'm not sure that would have changed.

Cox also thought Sterling was England's most dangerous player in the match.
The more I think about, Sterling is a bit like Ted Ginn in the NFL. He's valuable in the role of "taking the top off a defense", but his production has usually lacked what his skills should produce. It makes him very "sexy" as a player, but also very frustrating to root for. In his last 15 matches for England, he's had 0 goals and 3 assists despite being a key attacking player. It's easy to see his speed and ability on the ball, he just doesn't make goals happen for England.

[BishopMVP]

Don’t think you would or did. Lack of creativity is not the same as lack of technique.

Technically they were fine, and tactically they fine - Southgate built a system that minimised weaknesses and maximised strengths (mostly pace & set pieces)

Granted there didn't seem to be a Plan B, but Southgate’s first tournament cycle, and he only worked on the formation after qualifying, so time for further developments.

Not talking about the author, talking about the commenters under it. "Japan was technically better and able to play triangles around Belgium" etc. Just shows that the same complaints are lodged against every national team.

But yeah, I also think "put another guy in the midfield when we're clearly outclassed there and struggling to pass out of the back and get the ball to our two strikers" shouldn't be too complicated a Plan B and beyond the ability of a national team manager.

[bob]

I assume its better for FIFA if France wins, but is it better for "soccer" if Croatia wins?

[cartman]

Will have to watch this weekend's games in my car while driving to Florida. I've jailbroken my entertainment system, and have an Amazon Fire Stick in the car. :D

[whomario]

I assume its better for FIFA if France wins

I kinda sorta get speculating on wether Team A or B would be 'better' for FIFA in a final, but the eventual winner doesn't really affect anything whatsoever considering the tournament is then over and the next one is 4 years away. For which sponsors will line up again regardless of wether last time around France, Croatia or Iceland had won it. It's not like a sports league where it's a year-round cycle and a long season where ratings and sponsorships are affected by how popular the teams are that are doing well.

[AlexB]

Not talking about the author, talking about the commenters under it. "Japan was technically better and able to play triangles around Belgium" etc. Just shows that the same complaints are lodged against every national team.

But yeah, I also think "put another guy in the midfield when we're clearly outclassed there and struggling to pass out of the back and get the ball to our two strikers" shouldn't be too complicated a Plan B and beyond the ability of a national team manager.

My bad, thought you were referring to people in this thread

[BYU 14]

The more I think about, Sterling is a bit like Ted Ginn in the NFL. He's valuable in the role of "taking the top off a defense", but his production has usually lacked what his skills should produce. It makes him very "sexy" as a player, but also very frustrating to root for. In his last 15 matches for England, he's had 0 goals and 3 assists despite being a key attacking player. It's easy to see his speed and ability on the ball, he just doesn't make goals happen for England.

That is a very good comparison.

[MIJB#19]

Belgium rightfully winning the third place match.

Pretty odd that Belgium and England ended up playing head-to-head in two of the least meaningful games of the tournament. Albeit, had Belgium lost that first one, they might have had their loss to France tomorrow instead of a couple of days ago (or against Croatia, had they played like they did against France), while England might not have gotten past Brazil. It was kind of meaningful for how the knock out stages worked out.

[AlexB]

Belgium rightfully winning the third place match.

Pretty odd that Belgium and England ended up playing head-to-head in two of the least meaningful games of the tournament. Albeit, had Belgium lost that first one, they might have had their loss to France tomorrow instead of a couple of days ago (or against Croatia, had they played like they did against France), while England might not have gotten past Brazil. It was kind of meaningful for how the knock out stages worked out.

And weird that in the group game both teams played back ups, but both played pretty much strong sides in the 3rd place game!