Patrick Roy retiring

[JeeberD]

It was an honor to watch him play when I lived in Colorado. The best of luck to him in his future pursuits...

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Putting a career on ice: Roy done (http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/topstories/stories/052803dnsporoy.5d8fa9b0.html)

Associated Press


DENVER -- Colorado's Patrick Roy is retiring, ending the 18-year career of one of the greatest goaltenders in NHL history, a team source told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Roy will make the announcement at a news conference on Wednesday, the source said on condition of anonymity.

A four-time Stanley Cup champion, Roy is the NHL's career leader in victories with 551, and games played with 1,029. He is still considered one of the best goalies in the game at age 37.

But Roy has been bothered by arthritic hips in the past few years, and he has made it clear he wants to follow the career of his oldest son, Jonathan, a goalie who will start playing in Quebec this fall.

Roy won two Stanley Cups each with Montreal and Colorado, and is the only three-time winner of the Conn Smythe Trophy, awarded to the MVP of the playoffs. Earlier this season he became the first goalie to eclipse 60,000 minutes.

After the Avalanche were eliminated by Minnesota in the first round of the playoffs last month, Roy said he was 90 percent sure of his plans for the future, but did not reveal his decision.

Roy's retirement plans were first reported by the Daily Camera of Boulder on Tuesday.

Roy had his best regular season in 2001-02, with a 1.94 goals-against average and a career-high nine shutouts, but the playoffs ended in disappointment after he allowed six goals in a 7-0 loss to Detroit in Game 7 of the Western Conference finals.

Roy struggled early this season, but was unbeaten in 26 of his final 30 starts. He helped the Avalanche move pass Vancouver and win the Northwest Division title. He finished fourth in the league with 35 wins and had a 2.18 goals-against average.

Roy was solid in the first four games of Colorado's first-round playoff series against Minnesota, but gave up soft goals in Games 6 and 7 as the Wild became just the seventh team in league history to come back from a 3-1 deficit with two road wins.

"The day that I feel that I'm going to lose that desire and that passion, that would be a good time for me to leave," Roy said in January. "The tough part is that it could happen at any time. It could happen in the middle of the season, it could happen at the end of the season. And if it's time to go, it's time to go."

Before Roy broke into the league with Montreal in 1985, most goalies either stayed on their feet or stacked their pads to stop shots.

Glenn Hall and Tony Esposito, two goaltenders who starred in the 1960s and 1970s, helped develop the butterfly style of dropping to their knees to stop shots. Roy made the style popular during his record-setting career.

Roy hold the NHL record with 151 career playoff wins, and his 247 games and 23 shutouts are well ahead of Grant Fuhr, who is second with 150 games and 92 wins.

"He basically has done everything and broke every record, so I think it's pretty safe to say he's the greatest goalie who ever played," Colorado's Mike Keane said recently.

Roy appeared to be readying himself for retirement over the past year, when he bought a home in Lake Jupiter, Fla., and put his house in Denver up for sale.

[sachmo71]

Mixed emotions. Let's just say he was a great goaltender and he had a great career. That's about all I can manage. *SHRUG*

[JeeberD]

Wow, that's more civil than I was expecting from you, Satch... :)

[Ksyrup]

I won't be so civil. This is what I posted in the stickied hockey thread:


I've never liked Roy, so I guess it's fitting that even his retirement should get me angry. We've all known he was going to retire - but he decides to announce it as the Stanley Cup finals get underway.

It's all about you, isn't it Patrick? Jerk.

[sachmo71]

Can't deny he's a really great goalie.

[sachmo71]

Sorry...WAS a really great goalie.

[MizzouRah]

I'm not very fond of him either, but as a Blues fan, I'm glad he's retiring! :)


Todd

[Chief Rum]

I have to agree with KSyrup. There's an unspoken rule in the major American sports that when the big series (whatever it is) is goingon, that's the only news. So big announcements are made after any such series is completed.

Roy is all about himself, a total ME person. I'm not sorry to see him go. The game ont he ice will miss his great golatending, but the game of hockey will not miss his narcissistic and egotistical attitude. Nor the fact that he was/still is the Center Of All Evil.

Chief Rum

[sachmo71]

Since everyone else is dogpiling Roy, I'll state my case also. It pretty much mirrors Chief and Ksyrup...he was great on the ice, but his rediculious ego soured many of his accomplishments

[Tekneek]

I am glad he is retiring. I just wonder what Gary Thorne is going to do. Now if Mario does not come back, that guy won't have anybody to talk about every 5 minutes.

[Blade]

I personally cannot stand the guy...with the cry baby way he treated the Canadian Olympic selection, I was very glad he was not a part of the gold medal.

However, I can't deny that he is or was a damn good goalie.

That said...see ya, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out...

[ISiddiqui]

Good riddence to bad rubbish (the person, not the player ;))

[condors]

Pat Roy may be an ass to the general public but alot of goaltenders have said that he has helped them (before they got into the NHL). Here is a guy who has done it all and has time in the off season to work with minor league, junior players so he has a good side although i still think he is a horses ass for his tirade since they didn't pull him when he wanted to be pulled thing so he takes his kneepads and goes home

[Tekneek]

So, does this mean he will beat his wife more, or that the beatings will stop? ;)

[klayman]

Yeah, he's a great goalie and everything, but has he ever nailed his sister-in-law? I didn't think so...there's one goalie record he won't get. :)

[ice4277]

All I can say is :D but I'll miss those Game 7 Conference Final shellings ;)

[Honolulu_Blue]

He's a turd.

For a Detroit perspective on the retirement...

(from www.detroitsportsrag.com)

This afternoon one of the most hated opposing players in Detroit sports history will step up to the podium and announce his retirement.

Patrick Roy, maybe the best goalie in the history of the NHL, will announce his retirement after 18-years playing for the Montreal Canadiens and Colorado Avalanche.

There have been plenty of villains that Detroit sports fans loved to hate over the years, but any list of the top five would surely include St. Patrick. The Wings-Avalanche rivalry featured many protagonists that included Marc Crawford, Claude Lemieux, Mike Keane and Adam Foote.

Lemiuex was probably the most hated enemy at one given time, but for the long haul it was Roy who was always the constant Wings’ nemesis in the NHL’s version of the Hatfield’s and McCoy’s.

So in honor of Roy’s retirement, we at the DetroitSportsRag.com decided to compile a list of the top seven Patrick Roy-Detroit Red Wings memories over the years. This list would be best read while listening to Barbara Streisand’s “The Way We Were”.

7.) Roy Gets Charged In Domestic Dispute With Wife

There have been a lot worse domestic disputes between athletes and their wives (O.J. and Nichole comes to mind), but Wings fans couldn’t help from smiling when St. Patrick was charged with misdemeanor domestic violence back in October of 2002.

Michele Roy was not injured during the argument over Patrick’s in-laws, but she was forced to call the police after the goalie ripped two doors off their hinges.

Michele eventually attempted to stop the prosecution of her husband when deportation rumors started flying and in January of 2001, Roy was cleared of the charges.

This incident gave Wings fans fodder for their derisive Roy chants at the Joe for the last few years of his career.

6.) Wings Thrash Roy for 9 Goals In His Last Game as a Canadien

December 2, 1995 will go down as a defining moment in Roy’s career and the history of both the Red Wings and the Avalanche.

In that “Hockey Night in Canada” Saturday night game between the Wings and Habs, the fate of the Wings-Avs rivalry began.

The Wings embarrassed Roy by scoring nine goals on the then two-time winning Stanley Cup goalie. The final score was 11-1 in the favor of Detroit, but the victory might have been the worst thing that could have happened to the Detroit franchise.

Rookie Canadiens’ Coach Mario Tremblay foolishly refused to pull Roy as the Wings scored goal after goal in the old Montreal Forum. Finally in the second period after the Wings had lit the lamp nine times against Roy, Tremblay pulled his star net minder.

Roy and Tremblay had already been at odds over critical comments Tremblay had made about Roy while Tremblay was serving as a broadcaster before he was hired as the Habs coach.

Roy skated directly to the bench, went over to team President Ronald Corey (whose seats were right behind the bench) and told him that he had played his last game as a Canadien.

Later in the week Roy was traded to the Colorado Avalanche with right winger Mike Keane for goalie Jocelyn Thibault, left wing Martin Rucinsky and right wing Andrei Kovalenko.

Years later Red Wings coach Scotty Bowman admitted that he feared Roy would get traded to Colorado during that game as the Wings were scoring goal after goal. Bowman’s fears were realized as the Avs and Roy knocked the Wings out of the playoffs later that season.

That seemingly meaningless game in the middle of a long season ended up forging one of the leagues best rivalries not to mention probably costing Detroit a Stanley Cup or two.

5.) Roy-Osgood Fight




There was only one sure thing about the Wings-Avs series. In a year when a Red Wings goalie either fought Roy or attempted to fight Roy (Dominik Hasek tried to fight Patrick in 2002 but a stick got in the way), the Wings would win the Stanley Cup.

In the first Cup year Mike Vernon pummeled Roy during the infamous March 26, 1997 game (Item # 4 below) and the next year baby faced choir boy Chris Osgood went at it with the much bigger Roy on April 1, 1998.

The Wings and Avs didn’t meet up in the playoffs in 1998, but Osgood proved a lot to Wings fans and his teammates by taking on the Colorado goaltender that April Fools night. It was especially important for Ozzie, since many Wings fans’ memories of him revolved around him crying after the San Jose Sharks game seven loss in 1994.

There was a big debate on the winner of Osgood-Roy fight. Wings’ fans thought Ozzie was the victor while Avs’ fans thought Pat Roy kicked Osgood’s ass. This being the DetroitSportsRag.com, I will keep my opinion on the matter to myself, but you can judge for yourself by clicking here and watching the fight.

Come to think of it, it was probably a good thing that Hasek never got his hands on Roy. After putting that inline skater in the Czech Republic in the hospital last week, the Dominator was probably the toughest of the three Wings Cup winning goalies.

4.) Vernon-Roy Fight

As mentioned earlier, on March 26, 1997 the Wings finally got satisfaction for the dirty hit Claude Lemieux laid on Kris Draper during the 1996 Western Conference Finals.

Darren McCarty took matters into his own hands by pummeling Lemiuex over and over at center ice of the Joe after Igor Larionov orchestrated the brawl by tackling Peter Forsberg.

The choreographed brawl kind of reminded me of a mob hit (when did you ever see Larionov tackle a player other than the way he did to Forsberg that night?) and climaxed when Roy came out to defend “The Turtle” and Brendan Shanahan decked him.

The Vernon-Roy fight that ensued was one of my all-time favorite moments as a Wings’ fan, as the smaller Vernon clearly got the best of Roy.


The Wings ended up winning the brawl filled game on an overtime goal by McCarty. The Wings eventually finally broke through that year and defeated Colorado in the Western Conference Finals on the way to their first Stanley Cup since 1955.

3.) 2002 Western Conference Finals – Game 7

The beginning of the end of Roy’s career can be tracked to May 31, 2002. In one of the biggest games of Roy’s career (and there were plenty) the Wings annihilated the Avalanche 7-0.

Roy allowed 6 goals on 22 shots in one of the most embarrassing nights of his career. The game seven between the defending Cup champion Avalanche and the Presidents Trophy winning Wings was being billed as a game for the ages, but it was basically over in the first five minutes.

The match-up was also billed as Hasek vs. Roy as the two dominated the attention in the first six games of the series. Hasek got the shutout, and retired after the Wings defeated the Carolina Hurricanes in the Finals. Roy would never have the chance to avenge the defeat to Hasek, his closest rival for the era’s best goaltender.

The Wings’ fans unmercifully chanted “Hasek’s Better! Hasek’s Better!” during the onslaught and Patrick could do nothing but his normal chicken like neck spasms. While Roy will most likely go down as the better goalie between the two (Cups mean more than the Vezina Trophy), on this night the Dominator was king.

2.) 1997 Western Conference Finals/Post Game Press Conferences

If you were looking for high comedy in the Wings-Avs series there was no better place to find it than in Roy’s post game press conferences after a loss. Roy spitting out arrogance and his contempt for the Wings with his French accent was always a highlight of the rivalry.

The best example of this was during the 1997 Western Conference Finals. At the time Roy was of the belief that the Avs were the superior team and incapable of defeating his team.

After a loss in the series, Roy gave his famous, “Now let’s see if Detroit is ready to pay the price” speech before getting up and storming off the podium. Obviously the answer was Detroit because they eventually won the next game 6-0 and the series 4-2.

The Wings also had a game similar to the 2002 Game seven in the series as they won game four 6-0. Roy was pulled after five of the Wings goals.

1.) Statue of Liberty

When Wings fans look back at the rivalry with Roy, the phrase “Statue of Liberty” will be the enduring memory.

With the Wings trailing the series 3-2 and facing elimination in Denver things were looking bleak. Another playoff loss to the Avs would have been disastrous as the Wings had been eliminated by the Avs in the last two series the two teams played. If they would have lost this game the Avs would have been the team of the era and not Detroit.

With the score 0-0 nearing the end of the first period, Roy made a tremendous save on Steve Yzerman. Just to rub the Wings face in it, Roy lifted his glove up for the world to see. The problem was Roy didn’t have control of the puck as it was loose in the crease. Brendan Shanahan stuffed the puck in the net and the Wings went on to win game six, 2-0.

The play was a microcosm of Roy’s career. The brilliant save and the arrogance that would follow. Unfortunately for the rest of the league, the arrogance rarely led to goals like this play did.

[Cards4ever]

If he had been a Wings goalie, I imagine he would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Anrhydeddu]

Troy, remind me again why we think Wings fans are piles of turds? ;)

[Draft Dodger]

ah, fuck all of you crybabies.

Roy is no saint, but he was (and still is) an incredible goalie. One of the best, if not THE best goalie to play the game. His job isn't to make all you pansies like him, his job is to stop the puck, and I can't think of anyone who did that better.

[ctmason]

There's still an NHL?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
If he had been a Wings goalie, I imagine he would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I reckon you may be right. But he, as was his inherent nature, chose the side of Evil and Darkness. Like Yoda said, "Once down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny."

[Cards4ever]

Actually, I think he chose the good side. I'm still trying to figure out how Detroit became Hockeytown, they didn't seem like Hockeytown in the 80's.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
ah, fuck all of you crybabies.

Roy is no saint, but he was (and still is) an incredible goalie. One of the best, if not THE best goalie to play the game. His job isn't to make all you pansies like him, his job is to stop the puck, and I can't think of anyone who did that better.

Doesn't mean we can't criticize him for being a giant, raving ass. Being good at your job, or even the best at your job, does not 1) give you a right to be a turd and 2) shield you from crticism if you are a turd.

[sachmo71]

The irony of a Detroit sports pub pointing out the sorryness of anyone is too much for me.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
Actually, I think he chose the good side. I'm still trying to figure out how Detroit became Hockeytown, they didn't seem like Hockeytown in the 80's.

Hmm...I remember going to the last game of the season way back, Wings vs. Flyers at the Spectrum. Nothing at stake, except for draft positioning - both teams were darned near the bottom of the standings (looking at standings, must have been 89-90). I think if the Flyers lost, they would get the 3rd pick of the draft. If the Flyers won, hey, we got to see a win. Well, the bastards tied :mad:

Of course, doing a little research, the 3rd pick is now a Flyer (Keith Primeau) and the 4th isn't (Mike Ricci).

Anyhow, I think there were some lean years there for the Red Wings (as there were for my Flyers).

[cuervo72]

Dola - of course the #5 pick of the 1990 draft was Jaromir Jagr, and #20 was Martin Brodeur.... :(

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
Actually, I think he chose the good side. I'm still trying to figure out how Detroit became Hockeytown, they didn't seem like Hockeytown in the 80's.

For the record I hate the title "Hockeytown" and all the stupid crap that goes with it. I agree with your asessment Cards. I remember way back when, when HB was just a little tike. He was the only kid in school with a Red Wings jersey on. The only one...

Those of us who have stuck through thick and thin, however, rejoice in the greatness that has been the last 10 or so years!

p.s. At least, even through the leans years, we were able to keep our team. :p

[Canadian Football Guy]

No matter what his personality is (I agree he should have waited until the Stanley Cup was over to announce this) and the size of his ego no one can argue with his stats. He has been the dominant goalie almost for the last 18 years he has been in teh league. He has almost every record a modern goalie can have and the rings to prove that he could win the big one. He is a hall of famer and one of the best ever to play teh game. He revolutionized the position and you just have to look at the starting goalies in the NHL today to see his impact Brodeur, Giguerre, Lalime, Aubin, Biron, Thibeault, Luongo, Boucher, just to name a few.

My favourite memory by teh way was when he stopped Own nolan I think it was on a breakaway and as Nolan was skating by him after teh whistle Roy winked at him...priceless.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Dola - of course the #5 pick of the 1990 draft was Jaromir Jagr, and #20 was Martin Brodeur.... :(

Yes. I recall that draft well. The Wings passed on Jagr because of the "Klima Experiment." Petr Klima, a talented, wild youngster fresh over from the Czech Republic was a handful. All sorts of craziness, drunk driving, excessive drinking, etc, etc. Because of Klima the Wings said "No more young, flash Czechs!" Let's draft a big, goofy Canadian centerman. Who turned out to be a big, ole goofy baby.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Canadian Football Guy
No matter what his personality is (I agree he should have waited until the Stanley Cup was over to announce this) and the size of his ego no one can argue with his stats. He has been the dominant goalie almost for the last 18 years he has been in teh league. He has almost every record a modern goalie can have and the rings to prove that he could win the big one. He is a hall of famer and one of the best ever to play teh game. He revolutionized the position and you just have to look at the starting goalies in the NHL today to see his impact Brodeur, Giguerre, Lalime, Aubin, Biron, Thibeault, Luongo, Boucher, just to name a few.

My favourite memory by teh way was when he stopped Own nolan I think it was on a breakaway and as Nolan was skating by him after teh whistle Roy winked at him...priceless.

Agreed. He's still a turd.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by sachmo71
The irony of a Detroit sports pub pointing out the sorryness of anyone is too much for me.

More so than Dallas? (see: Dallas Cowboys' rap sheet) Come on! We are pointing out he's a arrogant, jack-ass, turd person. Not that he's a bad goalie. He's a great. The best. I have said this illions of times. Illions. Still, he's a turd.

Now if we were calling him a sorry, good-for-nothing goalie who couldn't stop a beachball (see: almost every goalie who has played for Detroit in the last 50 years, with a few notable expections of course), then you'd have a point!

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am being attacked on all sides here!!

[sachmo71]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
More so than Dallas? (see: Dallas Cowboys' rap sheet) Come on! We are pointing out he's a arrogant, jack-ass, turd person. Not that he's a bad goalie. He's a great. The best. I have said this illions of times. Illions. Still, he's a turd.

Now if we were calling him a sorry, good-for-nothing goalie who couldn't stop a beachball (see: almost every goalie who has played for Detroit in the last 50 years, with a few notable expections of course), then you'd have a point!

I should have narrowed that to hockey. :D

It's just that the Wings are filled with some turds of their own, who are guilty of some serious sorryness. I can't think of one player on the Wings who could match Roy one-on-one in this respect, but the Wings have an infestation of shady dudes. You know, like Chelios. And McCarty.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by sachmo71
I should have narrowed that to hockey. :D

It's just that the Wings are filled with some turds of their own, who are guilty of some serious sorryness. I can't think of one player on the Wings who could match Roy one-on-one in this respect, but the Wings have an infestation of shady dudes. You know, like Chelios. And McCarty.

McCarty is not too shady. Chelios. Yes. Most definitely shady. He's a mean, nasty SOB and a bit of jerk to boot. Took a while from me to warm up to him. Some could consider Maltby shady. He's annoying. Hits everything. Yaps and wears a face-shield all at the same time.

But at the same time the Wings have Steve Yzerman. He who represents all that is good and pure in the universe. His greatness counter-acts any potential shadiness.

[TroyF]

So the Detroit papers are writing about Roy's worst moments and they have to add in a story about his personal life? I especially like this line:

Wings fans couldn’t help from smiling when St. Patrick was charged with misdemeanor domestic violence back in October of 2002.


Nice. Very classy. Excuse me while I throw up.

Roy is a jerk. I can see why people hate him. If he isn't on your team, you probably don't like him. (if memory serves Roy beat the Wings more than he lost to them in playoff series) Still, for someone to take joy in another persons personal failures is pathetic.

I never hated the Red Wings. Ever. Always have like Yzerman and the rest of the gang. Never really got into the Wings/Avs rivalry. I like both teams. After reading that line, my opinion is changing. I still like the Wings, but their fans can take a flying leap. . .

TroyF

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
McCarty is not too shady. Chelios. Yes. Most definitely shady. He's a mean, nasty SOB and a bit of jerk to boot. Took a while from me to warm up to him. Some could consider Maltby shady. He's annoying. Hits everything. Yaps and wears a face-shield all at the same time.

But at the same time the Wings have Steve Yzerman. He who represents all that is good and pure in the universe. His greatness counter-acts any potential shadiness.

And the Avs have Sakik. Same thing. Two of the classiest players in the NHL.

TroyF

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by TroyF
So the Detroit papers are writing about Roy's worst moments and they have to add in a story about his personal life? I especially like this line:

Wings fans couldn’t help from smiling when St. Patrick was charged with misdemeanor domestic violence back in October of 2002.


Nice. Very classy. Excuse me while I throw up.

Roy is a jerk. I can see why people hate him. If he isn't on your team, you probably don't like him. (if memory serves Roy beat the Wings more than he lost to them in playoff series) Still, for someone to take joy in another persons personal failures is pathetic.

I never hated the Red Wings. Ever. Always have like Yzerman and the rest of the gang. Never really got into the Wings/Avs rivalry. I like both teams. After reading that line, my opinion is changing. I still like the Wings, but their fans can take a flying leap. . .

TroyF

Note. This is not from any Detroit newspaper, but from one yahoo's own website. He likens himself to a Detroit Sports Guy, but he's pretty much a tool.

I agree though. The domestic violence crack is way out of line and pukable and 100% out of line. It's no laughing matter. Ever.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by TroyF
And the Avs have Sakik. Same thing. Two of the classiest players in the NHL.

TroyF

Sakic is truly class, 100%, all of the way. He is like a Little Steve Yzerman. In fact, I think he wears #19 because Stevie was his favorite player. Enough to counteract Roy? Tough to say. Tough to say...

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
Note. This is not from any Detroit newspaper, but from one yahoo's own website. He likens himself to a Detroit Sports Guy, but he's pretty much a tool.

I agree though. The domestic violence crack is way out of line and pukable and 100% out of line. It's no laughing matter. Ever.

Alright, the Wings fans are back in my good graces. :) Jokes usually don't bother me. That one did.

TroyF

[sachmo71]

Yzerman is great, and he may be my favorite player in the league. That said, he can't make up for the darkness eminating from Joe Louis. Thankfully, he's about to retire. Then when Hull leaves, darkness will fall completely. There may be some rays of sunshine with Datsyuk and Zetterburg, but I think they will succumb to the darkness. Little Ceaser's my foot.

[Travis]

Sha na na na, sha na na na

hey hey hey

buh bye Patty, 'bout time. Let's see, how long until Broduer beats your records (wonder if that'll cue the Roy comeback attempt)...

And yes, Stevie Y is the tops, it will be a sad sad day indeed when he leaves the NHL.

Sakic's cool too, and Modano still scares the sh.....stuff out of me whenever he touches the puck.

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by TroyF
Alright, the Wings fans are back in my good graces. :) Jokes usually don't bother me. That one did.

TroyF

The fans never should have been out of your graces, if you'll excuse my re-invigorating an minor discussion which ended well.

It was a writer who wrote that--perhaps a glorified fan who has advanced to reporting, but considering he has his own Web site and apparently a reputation already, you can safely say he is now within the realm of media.

It was one fan here who put it up on this board, which is not exactly representative of the Wings fans in general, is it? And to add to that, the fan then pointed out he didn't like that part (admittedly after your objection to it).

Sorry, but it strikes a nerve with me when certain people attack whole groups of fans for the actions of a very, very few. I'm afraid to say you're one of them because of your anti-Laker views and the constant anti-Laker fan attitude which pervades this board. I don't know that you yourself hold to this misconception about Lakers' fans, but you are definitely in the anti-Laker camp, which has decided apparently that all Lakers' fans are bigger turds than Roy himself, on the actions of just a few they have met over the years.

Pointing out a man's personal and private problems for humor is reprehensible, yes. Being derogatory about a whole group of fans because of the actions of a very few is just as reprehensible.

Chief Rum

[Cards4ever]

I think Turd is the word of the day! :D

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Pointing out a man's personal and private problems for humor is reprehensible, yes.

Funny, just yesterday I came to the conclusion that that is the sole guiding principle for ESPN's Page 2. Even the revered Sports Guy - when he was still writing all the time and would run out of NBA, gambling, or Larry Bird reminisceses to pen, that is.

Larry Eustachy and Mike Price - not just reported on (that's ESPN's job) - the guys at Page 2 have to write party guides as if they came from them. I don't know why it just hit me recently, because I certainly find some of it funny, but I think it's just that that treatment isn't being reserved for the special cases anymore. It's almost automatic - screw up and get your private life torn apart. I guess it's the natural progression from sports talk radio to TV talk shows to the internet. But it's getting so predictable that it's almost pathetic.

OJ should be lambasted - Roy's domestic violence charge (or Wil Cordero's, or pick-a-player) shouldn't automatically become a punch line.

I don't know. I guess it's a fine line. Sports Guy's ripping on Doug Christie's domestic "situation" is one thing; ripping someone for every small thing they've done wrong in their life for the sake of entertainment is another.*

OK, end of rant. Back to your regularly-scheduled Roy-bashing.



* Coreys Feldman and Haim excluded. No purchase necessary. Void where prohibited. Prohibited nowhere.

[ISiddiqui]

Dola - of course the #5 pick of the 1990 draft was Jaromir Jagr, and #20 was Martin Brodeur....

Funny thing about Brodeur. The Devils actually had the 12th pick in that draft (IIRC). The BIG goalie prospect that year was Trevor Kidd. The Devils asked around and realized they could pick up Brodeur much later. So they traded down to 20 and got him.

Btw, Kidd got picked with the Devils' traded pick. Can you imagine how that team feels now? ;)

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Funny thing about Brodeur. The Devils actually had the 12th pick in that draft (IIRC). The BIG goalie prospect that year was Trevor Kidd. The Devils asked around and realized they could pick up Brodeur much later. So they traded down to 20 and got him.

Btw, Kidd got picked with the Devils' traded pick. Can you imagine how that team feels now? ;)


Ah yes, NJ, the only team in the history of hockey, hell in sports, to have never made a draft day mistake! :D

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
The fans never should have been out of your graces, if you'll excuse my re-invigorating an minor discussion which ended well.

It was a writer who wrote that--perhaps a glorified fan who has advanced to reporting, but considering he has his own Web site and apparently a reputation already, you can safely say he is now within the realm of media.

It was one fan here who put it up on this board, which is not exactly representative of the Wings fans in general, is it? And to add to that, the fan then pointed out he didn't like that part (admittedly after your objection to it).

Sorry, but it strikes a nerve with me when certain people attack whole groups of fans for the actions of a very, very few. I'm afraid to say you're one of them because of your anti-Laker views and the constant anti-Laker fan attitude which pervades this board. I don't know that you yourself hold to this misconception about Lakers' fans, but you are definitely in the anti-Laker camp, which has decided apparently that all Lakers' fans are bigger turds than Roy himself, on the actions of just a few they have met over the years.

Pointing out a man's personal and private problems for humor is reprehensible, yes. Being derogatory about a whole group of fans because of the actions of a very few is just as reprehensible.

Chief Rum

As the fan who posted said article. I do find the comment offensive. Even before it was pointed out. Though, admittedly, I did not voice my objections until after TroyF noted his displeasure.

That being said, yes I hate Roy. But it's all in good fun. I jest. I tease. I have no true, real malice. Never met the man.

That being said, I think a fair review of my posts on this board would show me to be a fair judge of any team I am a fan of and fair judge of any other team or player in the league. I have no huge biased. Of course I love the teams I route for and look at them through rose tinted glasses, but I see the warts and readily identify them.

If anything, I present a fairer opinion of the teams I support than most other fellow fans I know.

[TroyF]

Chief,

I'm not a person who hates Lakers fans. My views of the team cause me to get into it with some of the fans from time to time, but I have nothing against Laker fans as a whole. They cheer their team on. I don't think I'd classify a majority of them as fair weather fans. I think you and HeyBrad are pretty good guys and intelligent posters. (I know there are other Laker fans on the board I'm forgetting, I'm sure most of them are OK too)

I figured you of all people would know me well enough to know that I don't think like that without spelling it out. Evidently you don't. That's dissapointing. How pathetic would I be if I "hated" all Red Wings fans one second and then "liked" them all the next all based off of one detail? Don't answer that, your opinion of me seems to be fairly low at this point and I don't really want to know the answer to the question.

This is the third time I can recall you attacking me in a post. The first one, Gonzaga, I may have deserved. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with proof of white football players being racially profiled into other positions or being passed over in the draft when they are equal to their black peers. I've looked and have seen none. I asked in two posts for help in finding the proof and nobody stepped up. So I don't think I deserved number 2. This one? I guesss if you didn't know me, I'd understand why you would react that way.

Sorry I offended you.

TroyF

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by TroyF
Chief,

I'm not a person who hates Lakers fans. My views of the team cause me to get into it with some of the fans from time to time, but I have nothing against Laker fans as a whole. They cheer their team on. I don't think I'd classify a majority of them as fair weather fans. I think you and HeyBrad are pretty good guys and intelligent posters. (I know there are other Laker fans on the board I'm forgetting, I'm sure most of them are OK too)

I figured you of all people would know me well enough to know that I don't think like that without spelling it out. Evidently you don't. That's dissapointing. How pathetic would I be if I "hated" all Red Wings fans one second and then "liked" them all the next all based off of one detail? Don't answer that, your opinion of me seems to be fairly low at this point and I don't really want to know the answer to the question.

This is the third time I can recall you attacking me in a post. The first one, Gonzaga, I may have deserved. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with proof of white football players being racially profiled into other positions or being passed over in the draft when they are equal to their black peers. I've looked and have seen none. I asked in two posts for help in finding the proof and nobody stepped up. So I don't think I deserved number 2. This one? I guesss if you didn't know me, I'd understand why you would react that way.

Sorry I offended you.

TroyF

I allowed that I had never heard you label Lakers' fans as a whole in the manner that many others who hold similar views to you on the Lakers have done. This was merely a circumstance of you being a definite member of a group that has a very anti-Laker fan bias, and tossing on your flippant remark above about Red Wings fans, labelling them (even facetiously, still a horrible over-generalization on your part). You took one little-read Internet writer's article and turned into a personal negative comment about all Red Wings fans.

I'm sure a lot of it is that this comes not long after many of us who support the Lakers were getting unfairly ripped on just because our team lost. This was a relatively recent discussion, so the wounds are still a wee bit fresh. You make this offhand comment two months from now, it probably doesn't matter. You make this comment now, though, when the very issue of over-generalizing about a team's fans based on the arrogant posts of just a few, and it strikes a chord.

Am I overblowing it? Probably. I think my reaction is far out of whack with the humorous intent of your comment, yes, but this is probably a topic I am particularly sensitive about. So I hope you'll forgive me if I call you out on this. If it matters any, you were just the guy who came along and made the comment. Had it been Kodos, or Jets80, or any number of the other distinctly anti-Lakers fans here on this board who made this comment, I would have done the same thing.

I recall our argument over the potential for racial bias being present in playing time at the high school level, but I don't recall exactly how it played out. I know you and I were out of sorts ont hat one, and I do seem to remember reacting to you on it. What I most recall in that discussion is that at one point you basically questioned that anyone at all could possibly come up with the conclusion that I did. I'm sorry, but that comes off pretty much as a "My God, you're daft!" statement as I have ever seen. I remember that pissed me off a lot.

I'll give you two stereotypes: whites are smarter, and blacks are more physically gifted. These are so egregiously wrong it's insulting. Nevertheless, I think you could definitely find that people fall into these stereotypes rather rasdily, no matter how false they are. Your argument in that discussion was that the stereotype of "white is better" especially in coaching circles was leading to blatant racial discrimination against minorities in the NFL's hiring practices. I was merely pointing out that it is conceivable that this sort of thing can happen and the high school level for players as well, but in reverse. The coaches go with the "sleek black kid" instead of the "dumpy white kid", when otherwise they are relatively close to each other in practice performance. I don't know that this happens, and I hope it doesn't happen. But I am merely supposing that it could happen, and that it is analogous to the white coach hiring of the NFL.

You go so far as to so that such thoughts are impossible for a normal (i.e. YOU) person to conceive, despite the fact that it isn't logically inconsistent given the stereotypes present, nor is there no evidence for it, considering the racial inequities present in most of our major sports' playing rosters. Those inequities are probably the result of many different factors, but to dismiss the possibility of reverse (and unconscious) racism at the high school level out of hand as preposterous or the delusions of a mind you cannot seemingly comprehend seems like it's going a little too far.

TroyF, I still have quite a high opinion of you, but, dammit, sometimes you just say shit that really pisses me off.

Chief Rum

[TroyF]

I allowed that I had never heard you label Lakers' fans as a whole in the manner that many others who hold similar views to you on the Lakers have done. This was merely a circumstance of you being a definite member of a group that has a very anti-Laker fan bias

Well, at least you allowed that you've never heard me bash Laker fans.

You go so far as to so that such thoughts are impossible for a normal (i.e. YOU) person to conceive

It was and is highly inconceivable to me. In the discussions it was said that a "white" Charles Rogers would have been picked lower. I'm still stunned at that and will admit to that. I don't buy it for a second. The fact that I could never find any evidence to support such a claim (even taking the time to go to the library and DIG for as much information as I possibly could on the subject) shows me I had reason for disbelief.

TroyF, I still have quite a high opinion of you, but, dammit, sometimes you just say shit that really pisses me off.

If demanding proof pisses you off, I'm sorry. I don't believe anyone saying something makes it correct or means that I have to buy into it. It doesn't even mean I have to believe it can happen. I posted what I did "off the cuff". After thinking about it, I researched it and found nothing. If I make statement that someone finds disbelieving, I make the case that it could happen or prove my point with facts.

If I'm outright insulted, I tune out the conversation entirely. If you felt I insulted you, again, I'm sorry. I never meant to insult you. Ever.

Lastly, please, ALL LAKER fans, stop being so damned defensive. Yes, I believe your team gets more calls. Yes, sometimes I belive it gets to a downright horrific level (see Minnesota or Sacremento) It doesn't mean I hate all Laker fans. It doesn't even mean I hate the team themselves. (when I was young, you were either for Magic and the Lakers or Bird and the Celtics. I was for Magic)

I hate the superstar system of officiating which the Lakers happen to be involved in more than others because they have two stars. I'm sorry if it comes off as anti Laker. A few years ago, you would have heard me blowing up about Larry Johnson's miracle 4 point play against the Pacers. (that really never happened)

I also believe the Duke/Maryland championship game was officiated horribly a couple of years ago. I guess now I should be worried some Duke fans think I hate them too? Sorry if that comes off the wrong way, but it doesn't sit real well with me to get attacked about something I never did.

TroyF

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by TroyF
Well, at least you allowed that you've never heard me bash Laker fans.

That quote you quoted with this response was actually my second reference to the fact that I have not seen you personally bash Lakers fans for being Lakers fans. You musthave missed the first one in the previous post.

It was and is highly inconceivable to me. In the discussions it was said that a "white" Charles Rogers would have been picked lower. I'm still stunned at that and will admit to that. I don't buy it for a second. The fact that I could never find any evidence to support such a claim (even taking the time to go to the library and DIG for as much information as I possibly could on the subject) shows me I had reason for disbelief.

I'm not saying that would happen. Others might believe that would be true. I merely believed it to be possible. You don't even allow for the possibility, and that boggles my mind. Apparently, racism against white people is impossible.

You have yet to respond to the logic of the circumstances I laid out for possible such occurrences at the lower levels of football, nor have you accounted for the high percentage of minorities present in most of our major sports, at least as compared to their relative percentages of our national population.

If demanding proof pisses you off, I'm sorry. I don't believe anyone saying something makes it correct or means that I have to buy into it. It doesn't even mean I have to believe it can happen. I posted what I did "off the cuff". After thinking about it, I researched it and found nothing. If I make statement that someone finds disbelieving, I make the case that it could happen or prove my point with facts.

It is amazing to me that you still don't get my main point. This has nothing to do with the arguments we are proposing. This has to do with my perception of your insensitivity in your remarks. I have also already allowed that I am likely being extremely and unnecessarily oversensitive. But on the other hand, as I have tried to explain, I also believe you could be more sensitive. It's your "off the cuff" statements that are pissing me off, not you challenging me for proof. Challenge away--that's not my issue with you right now.

I have merely made a hypothetical supposition. I'm not trying to make a case study about it. I am pointing out certain facts and noting that a logical combination of them could be an underlying cause to reverse racism.

If I'm outright insulted, I tune out the conversation entirely. If you felt I insulted you, again, I'm sorry. I never meant to insult you. Ever.

I believe you. But it starts to ring hollow when it is repeated. I know tone is difficult to convey over the Internet, but sometimes I get this enormous feeling of condescension on your part in your posts. I would feel better if we didn't have the run-ins int he first place, rather than having them and then having to apologize later.

I'll make you a deal. You stop making off the cuff statements without re-reading them and being sure they aren't insensitive, and I'l stop being so damn oversensitive.

Lastly, please, ALL LAKER fans, stop being so damned defensive. Yes, I believe your team gets more calls. Yes, sometimes I belive it gets to a downright horrific level (see Minnesota or Sacremento) It doesn't mean I hate all Laker fans. It doesn't even mean I hate the team themselves. (when I was young, you were either for Magic and the Lakers or Bird and the Celtics. I was for Magic)

I hate the superstar system of officiating which the Lakers happen to be involved in more than others because they have two stars. I'm sorry if it comes off as anti Laker. A few years ago, you would have heard me blowing up about Larry Johnson's miracle 4 point play against the Pacers. (that really never happened)

I also believe the Duke/Maryland championship game was officiated horribly a couple of years ago. I guess now I should be worried some Duke fans think I hate them too? Sorry if that comes off the wrong way, but it doesn't sit real well with me to get attacked about something I never did.

TroyF

Once again, in my very first post directed at you, I pointed out that I did not believe you made any such references to Lakers' fans. I merely pointed out that you are a very vocal member of the anti-Laker coalition that exists on this board, so when you make over-generalized comments about fans (even if they aren't Lakers fans but Wings fans), it stands out at the moment. You may not hold to that opinion about Lakers' fans nor joined in with the ripping apart of the team after losing to the Spurs, but I don't recall you stepping up and decrying your colleagues for doing so either. You agree with them on every other point, it seems. How am I to take your silence on this issue then? In my mind, when you don't speak out against them, and you have shown yourself to be of a mind with them on other related issues, that shows me you implicity approve of their actions by your silence.

Saying now that that is not so doesn't exactly ring well. If you felt that way, you should have spoken up when Lakers' fans were getting attacked. If I recall correctly, the only thing you posted about after that was on whether or not Duncan is clutch. And no one on this board said one damn word to stop it until I posted anyway.

Lakers fans don't deserve it. Nor do Red Wings fans. Nor do Cowboys fans. Nor do Yankees fans. Nor any dynasty's fans.

Chief Rum

[TroyF]

Saying now that that is not so doesn't exactly ring well. If you felt that way, you should have spoken up when Lakers' fans were getting attacked. If I recall correctly, the only thing you posted about after that was on whether or not Duncan is clutch. And no one on this board said one damn word to stop it until I posted anyway.

These are a couple of exact quotes from a post I made dated May 18:

1) The Lakers are a GREAT basketball team. Repeat for all of you who think I bash the Lakers without respecting them, A GREAT BASKETBALL TEAM. Yes, I do believe they've got the benefit of some calls over the years. Yes, I do believe Sac. won that series last year. Doesn't mean the Lakers aren't a great team.

4) I really wish the people saying the "dynasty is over" would shut the hell up. The dynasty is not over. I can easily see the Lakers winning another ring next year. I could see them snagging two out of the next three. They aren't finished. No team with two superstars can ever be counted out.

A couple of more from the Kobe thread:

Kobe's showboating doesn't bother me. He's a terrific basketball player.

Kobe isn't the worst offender of this attitude, but he IS an offender. Still, at the end of the day, Kobe is a reason I still watch the NBA. What a brilliant basketball player. What an incredible athlete.

I happened to be on vacation when the Spurs clinched the title. You'll see I made about 2 posts in a 5 day period in that time frame. Sorry if I missed other posts about the issue, but I think in the posts I did make that I gave the Lakers proper respect and never once insulted the Laker fans.

I'm not saying that would happen. Others might believe that would be true. I merely believed it to be possible. You don't even allow for the possibility, and that boggles my mind. Apparently, racism against white people is impossible.

No, you misunderstand. Racism against white people happens on a daily basis. I can allow for the possibilities. I don't buy THAT possibility. (The "white" Charles Rogers thing) Still don't. If it happens, or I ever see proof of it happening, I'll change my mind and buy you a beer. I don't buy it.

You have yet to respond to the logic of the circumstances I laid out for possible such occurrences at the lower levels of football, nor have you accounted for the high percentage of minorities present in most of our major sports, at least as compared to their relative percentages of our national population.

Actually, I did. I've posted a couple of times about how "white" athletes seemed to be slower than "black" athletes many times. Even openly questioned why there weren't more "white" Randy Moss's or Charles Rogers out there. At the lower levels, you'll find that there are plenty of white guys at the skill positions. (even in college) Yet you'll also find that very few of these white guys have size and speed. It's usually one or the other. Why is that? I don't believe it is racism at the lower levels, I think it is something genetic. I remember a Bill James article from a few years ago where he talked about the relationship to speed and race. The black guys he studies held their speed significantly longer than the white players.

The thing is, you see a ton of HS WR and RB who ARE white. Why don't they make it at the next level? Are they ALL not being given the chance? I don't buy into that. They are getting scholarships. They are being recruited. I don't think there is a glut of white Randy Moss type guys who are being tossed aside at the HS level. A couple of reasons for that:

1) I haven't seen any of these guys go to a smaller college and break out. (like say a Tyrone Calico) Nor do I see a lot of 6th to 7th round picks that fit that mold breaking out. (like a Terrell Davis)

2) Nothing in the media about it at all. I understand some whites would be hesitant about making the charge, but not all of them. Not in this society.

Has it happened to some kids? Maybe. I could see some instances where it could happen. Still, I don't see it happening on a regular basis and to change that attitude I will need to see some evidence of it happening.

TroyF