OT: What Did Sammy Do?

[INDalltheway]

It says on MLB.com Gameday that Sammy Sosa was ejected in the first inning for using an illegal bat? Was it corked or what?

[primelord]

Yea they just said on the Cards game that Sammy's bat exploded when he hit a ball and cork was found in it.

[vtbub]

CHICAGO -- Chicago Cubs star Sammy Sosa was ejected in the first inning of Tuesday night's game against Tampa Bay right when umpires found cork in his shattered bat.

The Cubs had runners at second and third when Sosa broke his bat with a grounder to second that at first appeared to drive in a run.

But crew chief Tim McClelland gathered with the other three umpires to examine the bat. Cubs manager Dusty Baker came out and the umpires showed the bat to him.

Mark Grudzielanek was sent back to third base, the run was wiped off the board and Sosa was ejected as he stood in the dugout

[Patman]

That would explain a lot

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, I was watching. Routine ground ball, bat go kaboom. The camera couldn't get a good angle on it, but there was definatly a dark splat in the center of that bat.

[cmp]

Not good for Sammy at all.

[Fonzie]

Oh my. Any wagers on when we begin hearing the "I was borrowing somebody else's bat" excuse?

[Coffee Warlord]

Sammy uses those funky bats with the massive ball at the base of the bat. I don't recall any other Cub using those suckers.

Screw him. I'm a die hard Cubs fan, and I couldn't care less if he get suspended. Dude cannot hit in the clutch.

[Ksyrup]

Henceforth, he shall be known as Sammy Sosa*.

On the bright side, no one has proved that he takes steroids. Maybe that is why he was so indignant about that point. He used cork instead.

[MrBug708]

Sosa's credibility is marred now

[cmp]

So I wonder when he started using the corked bat.

[Easy Mac]

when he "stopped" using steroids.

[albionmoonlight]

He is SO going to be DQ'ed by the Daily Quickie tomorrow.

[Philliesfan980]

For some reason I never liked Sammy Sosa anyway. Good for him.

[KWhit]

Wow. I've always disliked that guy. Now I have a good reason.

[mrbuttercupjr]

SAMMY IS AWESOME!! KEEP CORKING THE BATS SAMMY!!!

[bosshogg23]

He didnt even argue(that I could tell).

Brian Moehler was caught using sandpaper to scuff balls a few years back, when they asked to see his hand he held out 4 fingers and held back the thumb that had the paper on it. Either way he got 10 games, im sure Sammy will get a similar suspension.

[oykib]

I think that MLB wants to contend the suspension so that he can play the Yankee series before he serves his suspension.

[INDalltheway]

I just heard that Sammy said he uses corked bats for exhibition games and such, and that he picked up the wrong bat tonight. I am a huge Cubs fan, but I do not believe that.

[bosshogg23]

Man I hope Sosa didnt really say that and that he was misquoted.

That is like saying you smoked pot but didnt inhale.........who the hell would believe that :D

[Fonzie]

We knew an excuse of some sort would be coming. I'll give him some credit for being original - but that's quite a pantsload.

[BillyMadison]

His posterboy image is tattered... Bad move for Sammy. No wonder he hits so many home runs!

[bosshogg23]

I bet he picked up Paul Sorrento's bat just like Albert Belle did.

[Aesyrqwe]

Go White Sox!

Finally something us sox fans can use against the cubs...

-Aes-

[Maple Leafs]

I think I speak for all of us when I say I never expected Sammy Sosa to be caught cheating... in this particular way.

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
I think I speak for all of us when I say I never expected Sammy Sosa to be caught cheating... in this particular way.

Don't despair - I'm sure he can still be caught 'roidding up. :)

[bbor]

There was a 2nd shooter

[Ksyrup]

The Grasy Knoll Corker.

Is it legal to use corked bats in exhibition games?

[Anrhydeddu]

Whether Sammy gets tested positive for steriods, or found with "supplements" or gets caught with a corked bat, he would likely get a slap on the wrist. Can't keep a player of his popularity down, that would send the wrong message.

When has he been using a corked bat and/or "supplements"? Since 1998 of course.

[mrbuttercupjr]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
The Grasy Knoll Corker.

Is it legal to use corked bats in exhibition games?

He said he uses them in exhibitions. He does it to impress, not in exhibition games themself.

[Travis]

Originally posted by mrbuttercupjr
He said he uses them in exhibitions. He does it to impress, not in exhibition games themself.

Of course he doesn't use them in exhibition games, why take the chance one of them would break, save them for the regular season Sammy!

[tucker342]

well, gives me even more reason to dislike Sammy.

[Ksyrup]

I got you. I thought he meant the games.

I'd bet $100 he used a corked bat during the All-Star HR Derby in Atlanta a few years ago when he was cranking them 500+ feet. That's an "exhibition," right?

[sony]

Sammy Sammy Sammy -- This is probably the most horrific day for him. He is suppose to be a good role model for the kids that watch baseball. He is suppose to be the pioneer of baseball today. He represents what baseball is all about. Now this?... His credibility will dwindle down the pipe... Poor Sammy!!

[Philliesfan980]

Hopefully his image will be ruined forever.

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by mrbuttercupjr
He said he uses them in exhibitions. He does it to impress, not in exhibition games themself.

I thought that people were supposed to be impressed by his skills, not by what he can do with a rigged bat.

And regarding the wisdom of Sammy's use of a corked bat, what would've likely happened if Sammy broke a corked bat during an "exhibition"? I'd submit that a media feeding frenzy would've happened, just like this one, that's what.

My point being that using a corked bat under any circumstances poses significant risk to his credibility, and his "explanation" serves, at best, to show that he's a moron for using bats even in exhibitions. At worst, it suggests he's both a cheater and a liar.

[Fonzie]

Dola- it's now being reported that Sammy's going to confess to using corked bats during batting practice, but not during games.

Good for him.:rolleyes:

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I smell end of his career .

[Philliesfan980]

What I really feel sorry for is the Cubs fans, they are the ones who got jiped on this whole thing. Sosa needs to dump some more water on his face. Too bad he's already made TONS of money. Total BS.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Fonzie
Dola- it's now being reported that Sammy's going to confess to using corked bats during batting practice, but not during games.


I bet it's to give the fans a good show during pre-game batting practice, right? :rolleyes:

What possible reason could anyone have for using corked bats at any time? Are they used as a confidence builder during BP when a guy is in a slump? I don't recall ever hearing about them being used in any way that is acceptable.

[Easy Mac]

Hasn't he struck out like 80% of his last 20 at bats or something insane like that? I'm pretty sure his career was well on its way.

Oh, and I really think that ball to the head knocked something loose, thats why he couldn't come up with a logical excuse.

[Philliesfan980]

I just have a feeling that nothing super major is going to happen to him because of this. In my opinion this is worse than what Rose did.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, the fact that he's been struggling lately is certainly not going to help his case. It makes it look like he was trying to "jump start" his hitting.

[Philliesfan980]

"Put on a show for the fans?"

Do you think he really cares about his batting practice exhibitions? Seriously thats terrible.

[Jets80]

Steroids + corked bat = many homeruns.

getting caught on national TV and your reputation taking a big dent= priceless.

[Craptacular]

I'd say MLB was going to lose some more of its appeal, but it doesn't have any to begin with.

[Easy Mac]

Selig doesn't have the balls to do anything.

[SackAttack]

What makes it worse is that, of all teams...he did it against the Devil Rays. I mean, c'mon, if you can't do anything against their pitching normally, how is a corked bat gonna help?

[ctmason]

One needs a corked bat to hit homeruns at Wrigley?????

[Radii]

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
What I really feel sorry for is the Cubs fans, they are the ones who got jiped on this whole thing. Sosa needs to dump some more water on his face. Too bad he's already made TONS of money. Total BS.

I feel sorry for me too. I don't think it's worse than what Rose did or anything like that, but god this sucks.

[Canadian Football Guy]

Not even anything on MLB.com about it yet. Anyone hear from him yet or anyone on the Cubs?

[INDalltheway]

Sosa and Dusty Baker have talked on ESPN. Not much was said besides that he uses them for "exhibitions" to put on a show. He said he picked up the wrong bat, and he couldn't tell the difference.

This really sucks being a Cub fan.

[Philliesfan980]

hmm... nothing on MLB.com yet.. MLB.COM is run by Major league baseball.. Who knows about this already probably.. hmm...

j/k, but you never know!

[GrantDawg]

How long was Bell out after the corked bat incedent?

[Philliesfan980]

"How long was Bell out after the corked bat incedent?"

I think he got a 10 game suspension.

[INDalltheway]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
How long was Bell out after the corked bat incedent?
Belle was out for 10 games originally, but it was reduced to 7 games.

Wilton Guerrero was suspended for 8 games in 1997.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by INDalltheway
Belle was out for 10 games originally, but it was reduced to 7 games.

Wilton Guerrero was suspended for 8 games in 1997.

Then my guess is he'll do 7. There is nothing he can do to earn back his credibility, though. This is going to lose him some $$$ in future endorsements.

[Easy Mac]

5, tops.

And Sosa picks up a wine sponsorship. He already whines all the time anyway.

[SackAttack]

Hmm...3do is in bankruptcy. Wonder if they'd sue to recover what they paid him to endorse High Heat? "The taint of a corked bat could adversely affect our product, which has value while we're in bankruptcy. Therefore, we wish to disassociate ourselves from any association with Sammy Sosa, and to recover the monies paid him to endorse said product."

Hm.

[Philliesfan980]

"Then my guess is he'll do 7. There is nothing he can do to earn back his credibility, though. This is going to lose him some $$$ in future endorsements."

Realistically, only time will tell whether or not this is how he generated all his home runs or not. When he gets off his suspension (assuming that he gets one of course), we will all see whether he goes back to "Slammin Sosa" or not.

[sterlingice]

I dunno- call me crazy, but I actually believe the guy. I mean, have you seen how many bats have broken lately because of the shaved down handles? It's just too risky to use one and I doubt a guy with 500 homers just started doing it. If he had been doing it before, he would have been caught 400 homers ago on a broken bat then.

SI

[Philliesfan980]

"I dunno- call me crazy, but I actually believe the guy. I mean, have you seen how many bats have broken lately because of the shaved down handles? It's just too risky to use one and I doubt a guy with 500 homers just started doing it. If he had been doing it before, he would have been caught 400 homers ago on a broken bat then."

Thats what I thought too. I may be wrong, but all those broken bats are down at the handle, and you wouldn't be able to tell if a bat was corked (ie shatters) because the cork is only like 10 inches from the top of the bat. I think its pretty rare to have a bat break at the end like that. Could be wrong though.

[INDalltheway]

I was thinking that the Cubs should have had another player use a cracked cork bat. Then it breaks and they see the cork. Then the Cubs could say that their bats had been tampered with. Am I crazy or what? I like Sammy that much!

[Neuqua]

:( :( :( :( :(

[INDalltheway]

Originally posted by Neuqua
:( :( :( :( :(
I am with ya' Neq.

[daedalus]

I actually like Sosa. Can't stand him as a player and, after a time, that stupid tap-tap-kiss-kiss shit gets old but his enthusiasm is pretty cool.

I agree with whoever that there's no chance Sosa will get anything more than a slap on the wrist. Belle was easy for the Commissioner Office to suspend a long time since he was well-disliked. Sosa is a way different issue.

Meh.

[jerem77]

Originally posted by sterlingice
I dunno- call me crazy, but I actually believe the guy. I mean, have you seen how many bats have broken lately because of the shaved down handles? It's just too risky to use one and I doubt a guy with 500 homers just started doing it. If he had been doing it before, he would have been caught 400 homers ago on a broken bat then.

SI

I agree. If he'd been using a corked bat, he'd have been caught a long time ago. As far as hurting his reputation, I'm sure it will pass. Besides, aren't George Brett and Gaylord Perry in the Hall of Fame?

[TroyF]

You know, I remember watching a White Sox/Ranger game in 90 or so. I watched this scrawny 20 year old kid smack a 450 foot shot to the opposite field. It was Sammy Sosa.

I don't think that bat was corked, nor do I feel a majority of Sosa's HR's have been hit with a corked bat. I have no idea wheather this bat really was for exhibitions or not. Sammy hasn't been hitting the ball well this year. He has a SLG% just over .500. Maybe he felt he needed an edge. I don't know.

I do know that Sosa's improvement in HR was EASILY traced to an improvement in his plate discipline in '98. He'd been hitting 35-40 HR a year 5 years before the BIG year. His walks and OBP% jumped up and his HR's followed.

This will be a blight on his career. His haters will hate him even more. The fans of Mark McGwire will overlook the fact he used supplements and would be a far more likely steroid user than Sosa or Bonds. (There is no doubt he was using Andro) Just look at the "he can't hit in the clutch" comment. Note: Over the past three seasons, Sammy has hit .276 with a SLG% of .569 in close and late situations. During the same period he's hit .287 with a SLG% of .678 with runners in scoring position. Add in a .500 average with the bases loaded and I'm not sure how you can say he hasn't been a clutch player.

His fans will lose some respect for him. You have to. How much is up to the individual. As for me, I'm dissapointed in him. It was a stupid, moronic thing to do. I don't believe it is a consistent thing, nor do I believe you'll see a drop off in HR when he comes back from the bat incident. (which I do believe he'll be suspended 10 games for BTW)

I won't put an * next to his name either. Just my take on it. :)

TroyF

[Airhog]

They should have confiscated all of his bats and tested them. I would imagine this wasnt a bat for exhibitions only. Come on guys, if you knew corked bats were illegal wouldnt you take every precaution to make sure you used a non-corked bat during the game? I dont think Sosa is stupid, and if he used the corked bat during exhibitions he would have had the bat(s) marked as such. Don't feed me dog, and tell me its beef.

[pjstp20]

It's funny how everyone's jumping at this whole corked bat thing, when in reality a lot of the great power hitters of the last few years have been cheating with steroids. I guess the bat is more direct proof of cheating but look at McGwire, Bonds, Sosa and J. Gonzalez when they first came in the league and look at them now. It's ridiculous but whatever puts fans in the seats I guess.

[Neuqua]

Thanks for saving my night Troy.

I can keep my head up after all :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Whatta maroon.

Looking at the last several cork cases, I'll say he ultimately sits for 7 games, most likely 10 initially then appealed downward. The appeals process would likely allow him to finish up this round of interleague play.

[Radii]

Originally posted by pjstp20
It's funny how everyone's jumping at this whole corked bat thing, when in reality a lot of the great power hitters of the last few years have been cheating with steroids. I guess the bat is more direct proof of cheating but look at McGwire, Bonds, Sosa and J. Gonzalez when they first came in the league and look at them now. It's ridiculous but whatever puts fans in the seats I guess.

This is why MLB so desparately needs to have mandatory steroid testing every year. I want so badly to belive that you're wrong(and really, I do) but how can I make any sort of an argument about it given the current crappy state of MLB drug testing.

[TroyF]

Just to update, they did confiscate all of Sosa's bats. We'll see if multiple bats have corks. My guess is they don't or he wouldn't be so outspoken so soon. If they do. . .

TroyF

[JeeberD]

OT: What Did Sammy Do?

Sammy cheated. Pure and simple...

[MrBug708]

Does anyone remember Wilton's corked bat? He hit the ball, shattered his bat and ran after the bat instead of to first. That just screams brilliance and innocence there

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Radii
This is why MLB so desparately needs to have mandatory steroid testing every year. I want so badly to belive that you're wrong(and really, I do) but how can I make any sort of an argument about it given the current crappy state of MLB drug testing.

As has been pointed out in a ton of articles since the collective bargaining agreement was reached, there are probably very few, if any, players using steroids anymore. They've moved on to a variety of supplements. Testing for steroids isn't going to catch anyone, other than maybe 1 or 2 marginal players trying to make a career-altering change in their physique.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by sterlingice
I dunno- call me crazy, but I actually believe the guy. I mean, have you seen how many bats have broken lately because of the shaved down handles? It's just too risky to use one and I doubt a guy with 500 homers just started doing it. If he had been doing it before, he would have been caught 400 homers ago on a broken bat then.

SI


So we're supposed to believe that the ONE AND ONLY time he accidently used a corked bat it just happened to break. Not only that, but it happened to break in such a way where the cork was visable. Not only that, but the umpire just happened to pick the bat up and notice the cork.

Wow! What a coincidence!

I really feel sorry for Sammy. I mean that's just really bad luck. :rolleyes:

[Ksyrup]

Especially considering the fact that he's been scuffling lately. He only has 6 HRs this year and just had a 5 strikeout night.

Of course, cork won't do much for you if you swing and miss...

[KWhit]

From now on, I'll give Sammy about as much respect as I give Albert Belle - None.

All those 60 HR years definitely have an asterisk beside them as far as I'm concerned.

[Butter]

Originally posted by INDalltheway
He said he picked up the wrong bat, and he couldn't tell the difference.

Doesn't that mean he's probably been using them for quite some time? If you can't tell the difference, then what's to stop you?

[Ksyrup]

I don't know that I can believe this was the first time he did it. Even if it was totally innocent and he did use a corked bat to "wow" the crowds during batting practice, if someone slipped up once and left the bat for him to use during the game when they weren't supposed to, how does he know for sure that he never used it before? And if no one in the clubhouse - teammate, coach, or ballboy - knew about it and he policed himself, that just makes it all the more suspicious.

While I don't think this automatically taints his career HR numbers, the 60 HR seasons become a little less amazing to me in retrospect. If they find another corker among his bats, he's got a lot more 'splainin' to do.

I'm willing to buy the innocent excuse, but that still doesn't excuse him for putting himself in that situation to begin with. You weigh wowing the fans with a corked bat during BP against the possibility of accidentally using that bat during a game and having it shatter, and the choice is obvious - wow them with a regular bat during BP. It's not like he can't hit homers otherwise.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Doesn't that mean he's probably been using them for quite some time? If you can't tell the difference, then what's to stop you?

My thoughts as well. I think he's lying. Why would you use them at all if there's any chance of confusion between a corked bat and a legal one? He just got caught and now all his fans are calling him out on it.


Todd

[TroyF]

Well, if he's lying, there should be multiple corked bats in his arsenal. Not just a single one.

The other thing to talk about is how much a cork really helps you. On ESPN they had a graphic last night that showed a corked bat gives you about 1.1 MPH extra on your swing. On a 400 foot HR, a corked bat sends the ball an extra 4 to 5 feet.

If he had it corked MORE than that, the bat would have been terribly unstable. I wouldn't believe for a second the bat wouldn't have shattered long before last night.

As Harold Reynolds talked about on Baseball Tonight, the interesting thing was Sosa's reaction. The bat breaks with half of the bat still in his hand and he doesn't hold onto it down to first base. In fact the part of the bat he drops is the one the catcher first notices has the cork in it which gets him busted.

I would think a guilty man would at the very least hold onto the first part of the bat, cutting the odds of his chances of getting caught down by half. (oops, this is FOFC, make it 2/3)

Again, we know Sammy used a corked bat for this one at bat. We know this hurts his credibility. Still, I'm not convinced that this was something that's been going on a long time. I'm also not convinced he's NOT lying. Some things of the story do add up, no matter how much his haters hope and pray they don't.

TroyF

[The Afoci]

Maybe I am crazy, but after the bat shattered, he just trotted to first and then to the dugout. If he knew that he had a corked bat, wouldn't he have tried to pick it up and go to the dugout. He has had many broken bats over the years and this is the first one that has been found to be corked.

Now, I am not saying he is innocent, but to me, maybe he isn't as guilty as it may appear. If I was cheating, I would try to cover it up more than allowing the umps to pick up the corked bat.

[Butter]

But if he has corked bats and says he can't tell the difference between them and the regulars, that tells me that he's, at the very least, extraordinarily stupid.

[MizzouRah]

Well, if he's lying, there should be multiple corked bats in his arsenal. Not just a single one.

The other thing to talk about is how much a cork really helps you. On ESPN they had a graphic last night that showed a corked bat gives you about 1.1 MPH extra on your swing. On a 400 foot HR, a corked bat sends the ball an extra 4 to 5 feet.


Exactly why he's stupid for using them, even if it's just one for showing off in batting practice. If it only amounts to 4-5 extra and he plays in Wrigley, why even do it? That's plain stupid!

He would have even looked more like an idiot if he ran out and picked the broken pieces of the bat up.


Todd

[Coffee Warlord]

Well, he's doomed any way you cut it now. Excuses or no excuses, truth or bullshit, he's pretty much destroyed his reputation.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
But if he has corked bats and says he can't tell the difference between them and the regulars, that tells me that he's, at the very least, extraordinarily stupid.

That's the point. He brought this on himself by taking a chance that wasn't worth it. It's really a moot point as to whether he's lying. The damage has been done.

This might have been the first and only time he used it, and it might have been an accident, or every bat he's used for the past 10 years might have been corked, or the truth might be somewhere in between. It really doesn't matter at this point. He'll never be looked at the same ever again, because there's that range of possibilities that no one can ever fully prove or dis-prove.

Combine that fact with the "video clip" age we live in, and it will always be there. I guarantee you that when he dies, they'll show clips of him and McGwire from 1998 and that bat exploding, back to back, in the news pieces about his life.

[TroyF]

Todd,

I'm not talking about picking up the pieces of the bat that were on the ground, I'm talking about holding onto the half of the bat he had in his hand. He could have easily kept that bat and ran down to first and nobody would have thought about it for a second.

I think had he known he was using a corked bat, he'd have held onto that portion of it.

You could make the arguement it happened so fast he just "reacted" as well. It does strike me as odd that Sammy never even attempted to grab any portion of the bat on his way to the dugout though.

TroyF

[INDalltheway]

To add to TroyF... I also think if he knew he was using it he would have held onto the bat. The catcher was the one to notice the cork in the bat.

[Ksyrup]

Again, lying or not, it doesn't matter. It's only a matter of degree of suspicion now. He's forever tainted, since no one will be able to prove anything 100% one way or the other, as to his past accomplishments. It's all a matter of what each person believes, and I think we, as a society, are showing ourselves to be pretty unforgiving of people who make mistakes these days.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by TroyF
Well, if he's lying, there should be multiple corked bats in his arsenal. Not just a single one.

OR... this could represent a decidedly heightened level of duplicity involved. It's certainly possible that a player deciding to break the rules this way would pre-arrange a defense, knowing that (especially given his stature) getting caught would have potentially dire consequences.

It's possible that he and the equipment manager (or whomever else) sat down some time ago, and cooked up a plan for what to do and say if this sort of thing ever happened. It's not too far-fetched... make sure there's one corked bat in the pile with a number of lgal bats, and that way, if you're caught you can say it was just an oversight, and submit the bag or legal bats as supporting evidence.

I'm not saying it's an ironclad case that this is what happened... but deciding to use illegal equipment is a pretty big risk (of reputation if nothing else) and it might very well involve significant forethought.

Or, he could just be as dumb as he sounds for (1) making the judgment to use an illegal bat for non-official occasions, (2) leaving that bat commingled with the legal ones for use during games, and (3) not noticing that he had the marked illegal bat in hand during the game.


No matter how I feel about people prior to such a circumstance, my initial inclination when someone faces a major disgrace is to assume that everything that leaves their mouth in describing the circumstance is a lie. It's a shame that I feel that way, but it's experience-driven.

Every guy who gets nabbed in a cathouse was "just asking directions." Every politician who gets nailed taking a wad of cash from an illegal contributor was "a misunderstanding." Every athlete who gets caught positive for drugs of steroids was "using cold medicine" or "eating a poppyseed bagel" or somesuch. I suppose that there's 1 in 100 of these people who are telling the truth, and it's a shame that those few get caught up with the rest of them.

You get caught cheating in baseball? In my book, you're a cheater. You then start with a story about how you're innocent? Now you're a liar, too.

Sorry, Sammy. Wish it hadn't happened.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Every guy who gets nabbed in a cathouse was "just asking directions." Every politician who gets nailed taking a wad of cash from an illegal contributor was "a misunderstanding." Every athlete who gets caught positive for drugs of steroids was "using cold medicine" or "eating a poppyseed bagel" or somesuch. I suppose that there's 1 in 100 of these people who are telling the truth, and it's a shame that those few get caught up with the rest of them.


...or every husband who's wife is murdered didn't do it.

QS is right on. Most people are lying, and it's a shame that the innocent ones get caught up in the automatic reaction we all have, but it's based on past experiences. Most people are guilty. And here, Sammy isn't completely innocent no matter what the circumstances are. He did do something wrong, it's just a matter of degree.

Between TroyF's belief and QS's belief, you have what Sammy Sosa is now facing in ever human being who cares enough to have an opinion on this subject. His reuptation is forever tarnished, regardless of the truth.

[TroyF]

QS,

All valid and good points.

Sammy hurt his credibility. There isn't any question about it. When you lie or cheat once, everything you say or do after that is thrown into question. I won't deny that for a second.

It's something he'll have to live with the rest of his career, wheather he's lying or telling the truth.

TroyF

[clintl]

I am skeptical that one incident is going to have a lasting effect on his reputation. Baseball history is full of such examples, and for the most part, they end up as little more than footnotes in a player's history. He cheated, either by accident or on purpose. Either way, he was an idiot, but he'll serve his suspension, and a year from now, it will be mostly forgotten.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
As has been pointed out in a ton of articles since the collective bargaining agreement was reached, there are probably very few, if any, players using steroids anymore. They've moved on to a variety of supplements. Testing for steroids isn't going to catch anyone, other than maybe 1 or 2 marginal players trying to make a career-altering change in their physique.

Thats news to me. There is no legal supplement on earth that is as effective as steroids. I'm 95 percent sure its rampant in baseball, in fact I know for a fact that a high school teamate of mine who now plays in the majors is using them. It is true that if there was scheduled testing no one would get caught, but if there was unanounced random testing you would catch more than a few.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by pjstp20
Thats news to me. There is no legal supplement on earth that is as effective as steroids. I'm 95 percent sure its rampant in baseball, in fact I know for a fact that a high school teamate of mine who now plays in the majors is using them. It is true that if there was scheduled testing no one would get caught, but if there was unanounced random testing you would catch more than a few.

I don't have the articles since this was a while ago (when the issue was in the news), but that was the sum total of the thoughts. If a Barry Bonds was using them, he's moved on to something else, so thinking that you're going to stop the use of performance-enhancing drugs by testing for steroids will be ineffective.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by clintl
I am skeptical that one incident is going to have a lasting effect on his reputation. Baseball history is full of such examples, and for the most part, they end up as little more than footnotes in a player's history. He cheated, either by accident or on purpose. Either way, he was an idiot, but he'll serve his suspension, and a year from now, it will be mostly forgotten.

But read the Sosa articles today. Wilton Guerrero, Albert Belle, Graig Nettles, Mickey Hatcher, etc. All of those names came up instantly. The only one they seemed to have forgotten about was Chris Sabo. And none of them were of the stature of Sosa. Belle, maybe, but not considering what Sosa has done in recent years. You can't just dismiss something like this when the player just happened to hit 60+ HRs for 3 straight years.

Gaylord Perry was about the only guy to ever get away with cheating when everyone knew it was occurring. I'm not sure he admitted it during his career, but it became like a joke after a while. I don't see Sammy getting that kind of slack, even if this was a one-time occurrence.

[illinifan999]

Young, naive though coming.

I personally really don't think Sammy cares if fans call him a cheater, a lying son of a bitch. He's making what 18 million? (guess.) He's pretty much set for life. Hell, if he wanted to he could just say, "Okay, I'm done with baseball, and just take all his money, and go buy a huge house on an island."
naive thought done.......

I beleive him. Like it was said, if he was guilty he wouldn't have just walked away from the broken bat. I really hope that when teh MLB does the testing with the bats that nothing is found.

Another thing I found amusing about this thread....:

At one point Sammy is being called incredibly, extraordinarily stupid if he was guilty and just left the broken bat without a second thought. Then it turns into he has a pre-arranged defense. I don't know why, but I found that funny.

[Cuckoo]

I find it absolutely amazing that people actually believe that a corked bat can turn you into a power hitter. First of all, almost every expert agrees that a corked bat may speed up your swing but likely subtracts distance on a hit because it reduces the sweet spot and cuts down on mass. Second, I don't think anyone doubts that Sammy is one of the strongest guys in baseball. I can understand why Wilton Guerrero would need a corked bat, but not Sammy. For that reason in addition to what Troy has said so eloquently, I actually believe the guy. Now, if you want to contend that he has used steroids in the past, that's another argument entirely.

[clintl]

For all those players you mentioned, Ksyrup, I think it proves my point - their names get brought up because of the cheating incidents, but the cheating incidents in the end have very little effect on how good people think they were as players. The incidents are little more than footnotes in that respect.

As far as Perry goes, I agree. He's unique, partly because not getting caught in over 20 years of doing it turned him into a sort of folk hero, and he sort of played it up without admitting it. I remember seeing him at an old timers game at Candlestick years ago when he carried a bucket of water to the mound and dipped the ball in the bucket before each pitch. It was hilarious.

[Ksyrup]

Well, cork does help. Norm Cash admitted after his career ended that he used corked bats for the entire year that he hit .361, which was something like 90 points above his career average, I think. It's benefits are not limited to HRs - if that benefit exists at all.

Sammy's average showed dramatic improvement a few years ago - most likely because of his plate discipline, but now...?

The arguments could go on and on. And this is what he's going to deal with.

As for him not caring about this, as someone else wrote - considering that his excuse was because he wanted to make people happy by hitting HRs 5 feet further in BP, I think the evidence suggests that he cares way more than he should about what people think.

[Travis]

Okay, he may not NEED the cork, but he may need to get some tutoring, because if you NEVER use the corked bats in a game, WHY would you even have them with your regular bats ESPECIALLY if you can't tell the difference between the corked up woodies and your regular splinters?

If all he was using them for was BP, he'd have them grouped a part from his game bats, and should personally make sure they are gone to the clubhouse once BP is over if he brought them out.

And while I haven't checked the logistics of a corked bat, it wouldn't make much sense for him to use them in BP if it reduces your ball flight. Another pieces to chew on anyways.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by QuikSand
OR... this could represent a decidedly heightened level of duplicity involved. It's certainly possible that a player deciding to break the rules this way would pre-arrange a defense, knowing that (especially given his stature) getting caught would have potentially dire consequences.

It's possible that he and the equipment manager (or whomever else) sat down some time ago, and cooked up a plan for what to do and say if this sort of thing ever happened. It's not too far-fetched... make sure there's one corked bat in the pile with a number of lgal bats, and that way, if you're caught you can say it was just an oversight, and submit the bag or legal bats as supporting evidence.

I'm not saying it's an ironclad case that this is what happened... but deciding to use illegal equipment is a pretty big risk (of reputation if nothing else) and it might very well involve significant forethought.


Exactly my thinking. If Sammy is a habitual cheater, you can't deny that he would have a plan for what to do if he's "caught". It is probable that he would know that his best defense is to act like he had no idea his bat had anything wrong with it. Carrying the broken end of the bat to 1st base would shoot holes in his story that he picked up the wrong bat and made a simple mistake. Running out of his way on the way back to the dugout to pick up bat fragments would be equally damaging.

We'll never know the true story, but the fact that he "acted innocent" really means nothing if this was all premeditated.

[Easy Mac]

So now the argument is that Sammy used the bat by accident, only for a show in BP. But the same people who are saying OK to that are saying that corked bats do nothing for distance. Which is it?

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by clintl
For all those players you mentioned, Ksyrup, I think it proves my point - their names get brought up because of the cheating incidents, but the cheating incidents in the end have very little effect on how good people think they were as players. The incidents are little more than footnotes in that respect.

As far as Perry goes, I agree. He's unique, partly because not getting caught in over 20 years of doing it turned him into a sort of folk hero, and he sort of played it up without admitting it. I remember seeing him at an old timers game at Candlestick years ago when he carried a bucket of water to the mound and dipped the ball in the bucket before each pitch. It was hilarious.

They are footnotes because they weren't stars. Belle was, yes, but his career took a dive anway. So I don't know that we've got anyone comparable to Sosa to compare him to, but I understand your point.

Here's my Perry story:

I spent my freshman year of college at Presbyterian College, a small, D-III school in South Carolina, and Perry was managing another D-III school at the time (Davison? I don't recall). Anyway, I wasn't playing, just a spectator, but every time he went to the mound to talk to the pitcher, we would yell things like ,"Ump, check his pockets, I think I see some sandpaper!" or "He spit on his fingers in dugout - don't let him touch the ball!" - stuff like that. He would give us looks and shake his head, chuckling, as he went back to the dugout. And one time, he pretended to throw something out of his back pocket once he got back to the dugout - and then looked over at us and winked.

We were riding him hard, but it was all in fun and he knew it.

[Cuckoo]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
So now the argument is that Sammy used the bat by accident, only for a show in BP. But the same people who are saying OK to that are saying that corked bats do nothing for distance. Which is it?

I would think that a lighter bat would make for a quicker swing and an ability to swing hard for a prolonged period of time. It makes sense to me that he would want a lighter bat in batting practice to make it easier to hit hard for an extended time. In a game situation, though, you're looking for that one swing. When you get it, I'd think you'd want as much of a solid bat as you can get.

[Travis]

It's just too bad they didn't have the Mission Impossible theme going while they greased up Zambrano as they put him into the vent works with another bat (probably not Sosa's), would have made for good times.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by clintl
I am skeptical that one incident is going to have a lasting effect on his reputation. Baseball history is full of such examples, and for the most part, they end up as little more than footnotes in a player's history. He cheated, either by accident or on purpose. Either way, he was an idiot, but he'll serve his suspension, and a year from now, it will be mostly forgotten.

I couldn't agree more. I think people always think, or maybe want to think, that this will have an enormous impact on the public perception of whoever is the subject. In reality, it rarely does. Now if he also gets caught juicing, or is again caught with a corked bat some damage will be done. I think this will blow over and be largely forgotten in 2 years (max).

[Travis]

Originally posted by Cuckoo
I would think that a lighter bat would make for a quicker swing and an ability to swing hard for a prolonged period of time. It makes sense to me that he would want a lighter bat in batting practice to make it easier to hit hard for an extended time. In a game situation, though, you're looking for that one swing. When you get it, I'd think you'd want as much of a solid bat as you can get.

And see really, when you get to a certain weight, your bat head speed reaches a maximum velocity that you really can't increase by going any lighter with a bat. I would expect somebody of Sosa's power is probably using a 32 or 34 ounce bat as is and could probably go even a little heavier if he wanted, while going lighter would really give him no more bat head speed.

[panerd]

Some of you guys are unbelievable. Substitute Mike Lowell for Sammy Sosa in last nights story and how many people believe him? Everyone would see how moronic the batting practice story is. Some people's reason is that Harold Reynolds and Bobby Valentine said it was plausible on Baseball Tonight. You think Baseball Tonight and ESPN have any vested interest in restoring Sammy's credibility? Do you listen to any nonsense that comes out of Bobby V's mouth?

He got caught cheating and came up with a very unique, but very lame, reason why. Instead of saying he borrowed Hee Soup Choi's bat (they were legal in Korea) he said he did it for the fans. The power of celebrity rears it's ugly head again.

[RawIsDan]

Interesting to note that the same Umpire McClelland was there for George Brett's incident in 83 and Albert Belle's cork one too.....

[MizzouRah]

They don't want to randomly test for steroids because baseball is already losing more and more fans each year and could you imagine the fans when they find out their favorite player is using them?

Heck, imagine if Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron used steroids! Who knows what kinds of records there would be?


Todd

[Cuckoo]

Originally posted by panerd
Some of you guys are unbelievable. Substitute Mike Lowell for Sammy Sosa in last nights story and how many people believe him? Everyone would see how moronic the batting practice story is. Some people's reason is that Harold Reynolds and Bobby Valentine said it was plausible on Baseball Tonight. You think Baseball Tonight and ESPN have any vested interest in restoring Sammy's credibility? Do you listen to any nonsense that comes out of Bobby V's mouth?

He got caught cheating and came up with a very unique, but very lame, reason why. Instead of saying he borrowed Hee Soup Choi's bat (they were legal in Korea) he said he did it for the fans. The power of celebrity rears it's ugly head again.

I don't know if you're referring to me, but if I say it's plausible, it has nothing to do with what Harold Reynolds or Bobby V. say. And it certainly has nothing to do with his celebrity status. In fact, I would go so far as to say that to me a logical argument could be made that it's more plausible that he's telling the truth than not.

[panerd]

Originally posted by Cuckoo
I don't know if you're referring to me, but if I say it's plausible, it has nothing to do with what Harold Reynolds or Bobby V. say. And it certainly has nothing to do with his celebrity status. In fact, I would go so far as to say that to me a logical argument could be made that it's more plausible that he's telling the truth than not.

So let's say Mike Lowell (who has always been a power hitter, but nothing like this year) had the same incident happen last night. You think as many people would say the batting practice story is plausible? I will have to respectivly disagree. It is definitely the power of celebrity.

[pjstp20]

The BP bat story doesn't hold a whole lot of credibility with me. As a former player I know that you wouldn't want to use a bat thats even 2oz. lighter in pre game BP than the one you would use in that days game. Even that light of a weight difference can severely throw off your timing.

[Cuckoo]

Originally posted by panerd
So let's say Mike Lowell (who has always been a power hitter, but nothing like this year) had the same incident happen last night. You think as many people would say the batting practice story is plausible? I will have to respectivly disagree. It is definitely the power of celebrity.

No, but not for the same reason. I think you're confusing celebrity status with consistency. Sammy Sosa has become a celebrity for a reason. If this had happened in 1998, I think people, including myself, would be less willing to buy the story. But, this is a guy who has hit 505 home runs in his career and had three seasons with over 60 home runs. No one will ever convince me that is because of a little bit of cork in his bat. Now, like I said before, you want to mention possible steroid use and I may not be defending him.

[pjstp20]

For those of you who think Sammy's story may have an ounce of truth you got to realize this: baseball players in general pay meticulous attention to the details of their bat, I can only think that this increases four fold when they become a proffesionals. Sammy taking hacks in a game with a bat that he thought was game legal is like a proffesional carpenter trying to unscrew a flat head bolt with a phillips head.

[GrantDawg]

I don't think anyone believes he hit all his homerruns with a corked bat. I think we believe he hit them while on steroids, and now has stopped using and is trying corked bats. Before this happened, I believed him when he said he didn't use. Now, I see he is a cheater and will do whatever it takes.

[Maple Leafs]

So sorry, let me get this straight: corking a bat only adds a few feet at most to a batted ball? And in fact has even less impact for power hitters?

So... players go to the trouble of drilling into their bats, adding the cork, and covering it up so it's invisible to the eye, all the while risking a suspension and humiliation... because why, exactly? For fun?

Sorry guys, I want to buy into the Sosa legend as much as the next guy, but the BS detector just exploded.

[Travis]

I agree with pjstp20, it's similar to hockey players using an illegal curve during a game. They know full well that it's illegal, and 90% of them put those sticks away during the final 5 minutes of a game. If they get caught, they take their penalty, but you won't hear them say, "I use it during warmups to give the fans a show by roofing the puck from 2 feet out". They know their sticks just as well as baseball players know their bats. To most it's an art, and there's no way Sosa mistakes a practise bat for a game one. I for one would give him a lot more credit if he'd just admit to getting caught and saying he'd learned his lesson.

[Radii]

I'm not going to get into all of the arguments above just yet. I want to see where the story goes over the next few days, and also I'm a lifelong diehard cubs fan, I clearly don't have an unbiased perspective on this(not that a lot of the people posting ARE unbiased or anything, but whatever).

But I do have two questions:

1) How do ya'll think this will effect Sammy's reputation as an "ambassador of the game"? Is that totally tainted and ruined now, or will it die down a bit and Sammy will be back to his old self in a few months?

2) Does this have a signifigant effect on Hall of Fame voters? As Jayson Stark mentioned in an espn.com article today, this is the first time such a clear hall of famer has been caught with a corked bat. This isn't Albert Belle or all those other nobody's that are being brought back up. This is a man almost certain to hit 600+ home runs and who is an "automatic" hall of famer. Does that change?

[Anrhydeddu]

"Ambassador of the game"?? Give me a break. How can a whiney, spotlight-stealing showoff (and now cheat) be an ambassador? That should only work in the NBA and not MLB. But since he is/was an "ambassador, all the more reason just to give me a slap on the wrist.

[Travis]

Originally posted by Radii
I'm not going to get into all of the arguments above just yet. I want to see where the story goes over the next few days, and also I'm a lifelong diehard cubs fan, I clearly don't have an unbiased perspective on this(not that a lot of the people posting ARE unbiased or anything, but whatever).

But I do have two questions:

1) How do ya'll think this will effect Sammy's reputation as an "ambassador of the game"? Is that totally tainted and ruined now, or will it die down a bit and Sammy will be back to his old self in a few months?

2) Does this have a signifigant effect on Hall of Fame voters? As Jayson Stark mentioned in an espn.com article today, this is the first time such a clear hall of famer has been caught with a corked bat. This isn't Albert Belle or all those other nobody's that are being brought back up. This is a man almost certain to hit 600+ home runs and who is an "automatic" hall of famer. Does that change?

1: I've never bought Sammy as an ambassador of the game, mostly because of how selfish he was in his earlier years. I'm a bad one for not being able to change my opinion for a person after they really instill one into me, and well, Sammy really didn't strike me as a good representative for baseball for most of his career. I'd much rather people look to guys like Maddux, Matt Williams (too bad he'll be retired soon), Vernon Wells, Jeter, and quite a few more before letting Sosa be the spokesperson.

2: Depending on what the results are when they check all his other bats, and whether or not he gets caught again will weigh heavily into that debate. I think he can get away with it for now, even if a few of his other bats check positive, as long as he doesn't get caught again. Though if they go the steriod route, he could be in a heap of trouble.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by The Afoci
Now, I am not saying he is innocent, but to me, maybe he isn't as guilty as it may appear. If I was cheating, I would try to cover it up more than allowing the umps to pick up the corked bat.
At least Sammy didn't go back into the store with a lifted sandwich? :)

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
So sorry, let me get this straight: corking a bat only adds a few feet at most to a batted ball? And in fact has even less impact for power hitters?

So... players go to the trouble of drilling into their bats, adding the cork, and covering it up so it's invisible to the eye, all the while risking a suspension and humiliation... because why, exactly? For fun?

Sorry guys, I want to buy into the Sosa legend as much as the next guy, but the BS detector just exploded.

I just saw ESPN's special on the Sosa situation and had to turn it off, because my B.S meter was redlining. I saw baseball apologists Gammons, Valentine , and Morgan say that corking the bat does nothing, and I thought of this quote. Come on guys stop feeding me bullshit and telling me it's chocolate pie.

I don't have anything against Sammy and I don't think he hit most of his homeruns with a corked bat. I think he was falling on hard times and wanted to get his edge back. I'm just tired of all the bullshit in major league baseball, stop lying to me. First steroids and now this. The players union is to strong the nuts are running the asylum and things need to change. Most of the players are cheating one way or another another and I'm not gonna support this sport until something changes.

I'll stick to a credible sport like football ;)

[clintl]

The ways players cheat changes over time, but there always has been and always will be cheating of some sort in baseball (and every other sport). It seems to me that for some bizarre reason, people make a bigger deal out of it when it involves baseball than they do when it happens in other sports.

[daedalus]

Out of curiosity (purely a question since I never played competitive baseball) . . . Would someone using steroid really help them in baseball? It's pretty easy to come up with examples of people trying to get big for the wrong reason and having it worked against them, the two that comes to my mind are Juan Gonzalez and Ruben Sierra. Not that I think baseball players don't use muscle, it just seems to be in a different manner of need than, say, football.

[INDalltheway]

I had an argument today about how the cork doesn't do anything. It was about 6 guys all against me, and I am glad I have some evidence to print off now. Thanks guys.

[RonnieDobbs]

Originally posted by pjstp20
I just saw ESPN's special on the Sosa situation and had to turn it off, because my B.S meter was redlining. I saw baseball apologists Gammons, Valentine , and Morgan say that corking the bat does nothing, and I thought of this quote. Come on guys stop feeding me bullshit and telling me it's chocolate pie.


Actually, I agree with those "baseball apologists." I know this has gotten a lot of play recently, but the book "The Physics of Baseball" does a good job of showing why corking is not an effective way of cheating. When you hit a baseball, the transfer of momentum is what makes it go. Momentum equals mass times velocity. You sacrifice mass for velocity, but the momentum will stay relatively the same. I'm not saying that the mass decrease and velocity increase are exactly the same, but I do think that the effects are most likely negligible.

On the whole Sammy thing, what an idiot. Maybe the Cubs could trade him. The Cubs are the one team that I absolutely adore, and Sammy is no longer worthy of that in my mind.

[INDalltheway]

Originally posted by daedalus
Out of curiosity (purely a question since I never played competitive baseball) . . . Would someone using steroid really help them in baseball? It's pretty easy to come up with examples of people trying to get big for the wrong reason and having it worked against them, the two that comes to my mind are Juan Gonzalez and Ruben Sierra. Not that I think baseball players don't use muscle, it just seems to be in a different manner of need than, say, football.
There is a point where you can get too bulky for baseball. Sammy is just about to that point. I mean if you can't move your arms fully around how will you swing and throw?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by INDalltheway
I had an argument today about how the cork doesn't do anything. It was about 6 guys all against me, and I am glad I have some evidence to print off now. Thanks guys. Which leaves the question: if it doesn't do anything, why risk a ten-game suspension to do it anyways?

[TroyF]

As usual, someone else finds the words to express how I feel better than I do. Usually it's QS, but this time I'll let Rob Neyer take the floor.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1563170.html


TroyF

[INDalltheway]

Very true Maple Leafs. I guess it just makes good discusion on internet message boards about a football game. :)

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by pjstp20
For those of you who think Sammy's story may have an ounce of truth you got to realize this: baseball players in general pay meticulous attention to the details of their bat, I can only think that this increases four fold when they become a proffesionals. Sammy taking hacks in a game with a bat that he thought was game legal is like a proffesional carpenter trying to unscrew a flat head bolt with a phillips head.

No, that would be if his bat were in a cross shape instead of a line. What were we talking about again?

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by TroyF
As usual, someone else finds the words to express how I feel better than I do. Usually it's QS, but this time I'll let Rob Neyer take the floor.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1563170.html


TroyF

Nice link, TroyF. Rob Neyer with another good article even if you can tell it was rushed.

SI

[INDalltheway]

Sterlingice- I have also heard that Sosa had a "C" in the inside of the cup of the bat. I believe Sosa when he said he didn't know he was using the corked bat because when they are on deck they don't even swing the bat they take up to the plate. They have all those heavy, weighted bats that they swing. Then when you go up to the plate of course the bat will feel light. That is just my .02 cents though.

[panerd]

I will stick by my orginal assertsion. All of a sudden corking a bat doesn't do that much. It is time to hit the internet archives to see what Gammons et al had to say about corking during the Belle and Sabo era. (I will return shorty with some quotes) It is simple, they are covering Sammy's ass. ESPN makes moeny when Sosa is on their networks (in games, on basbeall tonight highlights). They are paid by ESPN. End of story. Like someone said above, why the hell would anyone cork their bat and risk a ten game suspension? Why would Sammy cork his bat for only BP? It doesn't do anything, right?

[RonnieDobbs]

Originally posted by panerd
I will stick by my orginal assertsion. All of a sudden corking a bat doesn't do that much. It is time to hit the internet archives to see what Gammons et al had to say about corking during the Belle and Sabo era. (I will return shorty with some quotes) It is simple, they are covering Sammy's ass. ESPN makes moeny when Sosa is on their networks (in games, on basbeall tonight highlights). They are paid by ESPN. End of story. Like someone said above, why the hell would anyone cork their bat and risk a ten game suspension? Why would Sammy cork his bat for only BP? It doesn't do anything, right?

Well, this book "The Physics of Baseball" has been around for about 10 years. I'm sure Sammy thought he was helping himself. The fact of the matter is he most likely wasn't. The resolution they came to on the Dan Patrick show is probably its a mental edge; you are more confident if you think you have an edge over everyone else, and thus you play better. Gammons et al. may change their song as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that corking the bat is ineffective. It's still cheating (according to the rules) and that's why Sammy is an idiot.

[Radii]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
"Ambassador of the game"?? Give me a break. How can a whiney, spotlight-stealing showoff (and now cheat) be an ambassador? That should only work in the NBA and not MLB. But since he is/was an "ambassador, all the more reason just to give me a slap on the wrist.

Well, "Ambassador of the game" certainly wasn't a phrase i invented, i've heard it used many times in reference to Sosa. Sosa and McGwire are given incredible amounts of credit for reviving many fans interest in baseball during the 1998 season. McGwire was much more unapproachable than Sosa though, Sosa was very approachable, had fun with the whole thing and won over tons of fans, most of which I think he still has.

But, if you discount the fact that he ever is/was worthy of that title, I guess the impact this corking stuff will have on it is obvoius. :D

[msuballa]

I don't believe Sammy cheated. And if he did, is he the first baseball player to ever cheat?? Why do people act like it is such a big deal, when there are many other players who cheat in the same way and different ways in the league?? Doesn't make sense to me either. Just because he is one of the top players in baseball means that he can't make a mistake. I believe him, it was a mistake, honest mistake.

[panerd]

Originally posted by msuballa
I don't believe Sammy cheated. And if he did, is he the first baseball player to ever cheat?? Why do people act like it is such a big deal, when there are many other players who cheat in the same way and different ways in the league?? Doesn't make sense to me either. Just because he is one of the top players in baseball means that he can't make a mistake. I believe him, it was a mistake, honest mistake.

I hope he doesn't use this tangled web of reasoning at his suspension hearing. Did you used to work for Enron?

[Anrhydeddu]

Why do people act like it is such a big deal, when there are many other players who cheat in the same way and different ways in the league??

You probably believe also that downloading copyrighted is not a big deal since many others do it. You probably believe it's okay to cheat on your taxes since many does it. I'm not really picking on you but if anyone doesn't take a stand against cheating (regardless if one or many does it) or take a stand against any corruption, deceipt, lying or bad behavior, then we are only encouraging more of this.

[msuballa]

Yea guess what maybe this is hard to believe, but baseball is a game, A very boring game that no one cares about and the only time anyone cares to talk about it is if something hppens. Like taking steroids, using corked bats, being gay, or something like that. No one really cares. Not a big deal if he cheated or not cause guess what, its baseball.

[Anrhydeddu]

ML Baseball, despite the mess they got themselves into, can be a microcosm of society, esp. when viewed as more than just MLB but all of organized baseball leagues.

[msuballa]

Yea, that matters because........thats right it doesnt cause no one cares about baseball.

[Coffee Warlord]

Well, at least the Cubbies have a masterful reserve rightfielder by the name of Troy O'Leary in Sosa's absence. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Am I the only person who thought the Neyer piece was pretty damned weak and came across like he was the chosen shill for the position best for ESPN?

[Neuqua]

MLB checked up on the 77 bats taken from the clubhouse which were supposed to have belonged to Sosa, and not one came back with cork in it..

Take it for what it's worth..

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Am I the only person who thought the Neyer piece was pretty damned weak and came across like he was the chosen shill for the position best for ESPN?

No I thought it was weak too, doesn't matter if it helps or not, that's debatable, problem is he cheated. ESPN is really trying to do spin control on this because they know baseball can't get any more black eyes, especially when they have games running on their network till September. However, I don't think Sammy is a bad guy and he'll get through this, but it will always be with him.

Panerd- that Enron quote was hilarious.

[Radii]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Am I the only person who thought the Neyer piece was pretty damned weak and came across like he was the chosen shill for the position best for ESPN?

I thought he made clear, concise points in a well written article.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by Neuqua
MLB checked up on the 77 bats taken from the clubhouse which were supposed to have belonged to Sosa, and not one came back with cork in it..

Take it for what it's worth..

I'm not saying this isn't true, but outside of Sammy Sosa, Major League Baseball has the most to lose if there were more than a few corked bats.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally posted by pjstp20
I'm not saying this isn't true, but outside of Sammy Sosa, Major League Baseball has the most to lose if there were more than a few corked bats.

And herein lies the biggest problem with this whole thing. A lot of people will believe the worst, always, and ignore any facts to the contrary.

And they have a perfectly legitimate reason to do so. You cheat, intentionally or otherwise, you're screwed.

[SirFozzie]

Seventy Six bats, not one corked. I think this pretty much shuts down the "habitual cheater stuff" considering the amount of attention likely focused on the Cubs locker room the second Sosa was ejected, so moving them out is not an option, also, I've seen an at-bat for sosa a few weeks back (before he went on the DL) where he fractured a couple bats, and everything seemed to be cool.

Here's the main reason why folks put cork on the bat, deface the ball, because they BELIEVE it works! Belief is a pretty powerful tool.

[MrBug708]

Originally posted by Neuqua
MLB checked up on the 77 bats taken from the clubhouse which were supposed to have belonged to Sosa, and not one came back with cork in it..

Take it for what it's worth..


So you're saying that what most likely happened was the ONE time he used the bat, it shattered? OJ had a better defense then this

[cmp]

I don't know why. But for some reason I believe Sammy. He may have done it knowingly, may not of. Until I hear for sure I believe him. If he knowingly did it my opinion of the man will greatly change though.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by MrBug708
So you're saying that what most likely happened was the ONE time he used the bat, it shattered? OJ had a better defense then this

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Seventy Six bats, not one corked. I think this pretty much shuts down the "habitual cheater stuff" considering the amount of attention likely focused on the Cubs locker room the second Sosa was ejected, so moving them out is not an option, also, I've seen an at-bat for sosa a few weeks back (before he went on the DL) where he fractured a couple bats, and everything seemed to be cool.

Like CW said, this is where the problem comes in: everyone has already made up their mind.

"MLB is just covering for Sosa" or "See, he's innocent" was what everyone was going to say today regardless of what they found (short of 100 corked bats).

Myself, I'll stick with the logic of "he's broken bats before and none of those were corked so since they found nothing in his others his story checks out".

SI

[MrBug708]

I'm not saying he's a cheater. I always liked Sammy, except when he left his charity high and dry, I find it a little unlikely that the one time he used an altered bat, it shattered

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by MrBug708
I'm not saying he's a cheater. I always liked Sammy, except when he left his charity high and dry, I find it a little unlikely that the one time he used an altered bat, it shattered

Nah, I'll meet you on the middle ground there. I'm guessing this isn't the first time it's happened but I'm guessing it's not all that frequent either. If dude has 76 other bats, then it probably happens roughly once out of 75 times. And that's if he takes no precautions to try and avoid picking it.

SI

[INDalltheway]

Sosa update... Tonight he is 0-3 with 3 K's. Tell me he isn't feeling any pressure at all... Lets go Sammy!

[pjstp20]

I really can't believe that some of you can think that this is an isolated incident. Let me get this straight so I'm sure I'm understanding this. In Sammy's 8000 at bats he's only used a corked bat one time, and in that one at bat it shatters and, oops, there's a cork in there. Please.

The fact that he cheated isn't as bad as all the lying, lame excuses and cover ups offered by Sammy, MLB and ESPN. I know this isn't as big a deal as some, myself included, are making it but pleeeeeease, stop pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining. I'm not stupid enough to buy that.

[MrBug708]

Bats examined (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-cubs-sosasbat&prov=ap&type=lgns)


The bats were taken today, during the game. If your Sosa on Tuesday, isn't the first thing you do is grab all the "tampered" bats from the locker room?

[GrantDawg]

I think the biggest problem with this (which I've already pointed out) is that he claimed that he was not juicing. Many believed him (including me) because he was an upright kind of guy. This proves that he is not above cheating, which makes you go back and question the statements he made about steroids.

And yes Jon, I agree that article was weak. What is the difference between Gaylord Perry and Sammy Sosa? Perry always cheated with a wink and a nod, and made a show of showing people how to cheat. He always played "catch me if you can" and never has denied cheating. Sammy is the "innocent victim" who only made a "simple mistake."

I'm not arguing that Sammy doesn't deserve the HOF when he comes up, or that he should be run out of baseball, or anything of that like. He should get the full suspension, fine, and whatever else may be coming to him. What this does do, however, is tarnish his clean record and will always leave a bigger question mark on whether he it was steroids that helped him hit all those homers.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by MrBug708


The bats were taken today, during the game. If your Sosa on Tuesday, isn't the first thing you do is grab all the "tampered" bats from the locker room?

As someone said earlier (execpt in the other direction) if you want to believe something, you'll buy any evidence that comes your way.

[Philliesfan980]

Corked Bats or no Corked Bats, Sammy's not the same player he was in previous years. I think he's off the roids because of all the pressure from MLB. That combined with the fact that he's getting up there in years is the reason for his decline

[SirFozzie]

The real reason for his decline? Getting nearly killed by a fastball. he's so gun shy he's flinching EVERY time someone throws him a curve ball. Watch the video from today, a regular curve ball, and he's diving backwards before the break.

I can understand it, and forgive it, unfortunately it's a part of baseball :(

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Bats examined (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-cubs-sosasbat&prov=ap&type=lgns)


The bats were taken today, during the game. If your Sosa on Tuesday, isn't the first thing you do is grab all the "tampered" bats from the locker room?

No, no, no. That was poorly worded. The bats were taken yesterday and examined today. They were not taken today and tested today. The espn story is more carefully worded: Link (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0604/1563115.html)

SI

[Happy29]

What would be even more strange is the probability that he had another cork inside that corked bat.

[FishFan]

Looks like Sammy was just bringing himself down to the level of his competition. What a thoughtful guy.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0604/1563204.html

Wouldn't it be interesting to see him go on a tear now that he can hit the ball farther with an uncorked bat? All this fuss about nothing...

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by FishFan
Looks like Sammy was just bringing himself down to the level of his competition. What a thoughtful guy.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0604/1563204.html

Wouldn't it be interesting to see him go on a tear now that he can hit the ball farther with an uncorked bat? All this fuss about nothing...

God ESPN is getting on my nerves. Now they have physics nerds telling me what gives you an edge in baseball and what does not? Anway, that isnt the point, he had something in his bat he shouldn't have had and whether it helped him or not, the integrity of Sosa and baseball are gonna be hurting for a while.

Lets entertain this article for a moment though. According to these scientists, a cork won't help distance just bat speed and the amount of time a player can recognize a pitch before he swings. If you throw a hitter in there with Sosa's power and I see a formula for hitting home runs: Bat Speed + Pitch recognition + power= 505HRs

Now I don't think Sammy used this for all 505 HRs or even a quarter of them, but if ESPN tries to feed me any more horseshit I might believe he did cheat for all 505 out of spite.

[panerd]

I am very much anti-Sosa so take this for what it is worth. But I wouldn't think you would have more than one corked bat going at a time either. So the 75 out of 76 clean bats is sort of misleading. Somebody needs to go thru old WGN tapes and see if he is always using that black bat or if he uses all sorts of other bats. The way I look at it is this...

1. I decide I am going to use a corked bat.
2. I cork a bat.
3. I decide the only reason I will ever have to use another bat is if my corked bat breaks.
4. If my corked bat breaks than I will be in a little bit of trouble.
5. So I will create no more corked bats.
6. If they ask me after the corked bat breaks I give them the batting practice story and I also tell them to check all of my other bats.

Didn't OJ tell someone to check all of his other gloves and cars that didn't have blood on them?

[Taur]

Wow all these posts and not a single mention of the most famous "Illegal Bat" in my time. Does anyone remember the George Brett affair?

[Neuqua]

I think this will end up being an either your "with him or against him" type of story. Me, I've been a Cubs fan all my life. I've watched Sammy when he was a younger hitter and then mature into the slugger we all know. He's broken many bats in his career, and not once was there any suspicion of any of them.

76 bats, and not another cork. They x-rayed his HR #498 bat, all wood. They x-rayed the bat Sosa used to crank out 20 HRs in June which is now at Harry Caray's resteraunt, no cork.

The guy saved baseball, and for that I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Taur
Wow all these posts and not a single mention of the most famous "Illegal Bat" in my time. Does anyone remember the George Brett affair?

Well, the bat may have been illegal, but the ruling was overturned. The HR stood and the Royals (finally) won the game a month or so later.

[Easy Mac]

But the fact remains, bat number 76 was corked, and thats all that matters. If it happens once and you're caught, you're a cheater. I really don't see how its wrong to label him that from now on.

[Philliesfan980]

"Well, the bat may have been illegal, but the ruling was overturned. The HR stood and the Royals (finally) won the game a month or so later."

Wow really? Thats the part of the story that you really don't hear about that much. Why did they overturn it if he had illegal pine tar usage?

[Easy Mac]

dola

and if he saved baseball, something is wrong. I was bored by the McGuire/Sosa HR derby. The people who watched that did just that. People didn't watch it and say "baseball is great," they said those 2 are great. Those people don't watch the game anymore. Personally, the only thing saving baseball for me has been my Braves, its the only baseball I can watch from start to finish, and the only baseball I've followed since the strike.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
"Well, the bat may have been illegal, but the ruling was overturned. The HR stood and the Royals (finally) won the game a month or so later."

Wow really? Thats the part of the story that you really don't hear about that much. Why did they overturn it if he had illegal pine tar usage?

They said it had no actual bearing on his ability to hit the ball, and the rule was as asenine as a Kodos poll

[Philliesfan980]

"They said it had no actual bearing on his ability to hit the ball, and the rule was as asenine as a Kodos poll"

LOL that makes sense. Yeah I never really saw the corelation between putting sticky stuff on the bat and hitting the ball further, doesn't really make any sense. I guess the Yankees were just looking for something to save the game.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by pjstp20
If you throw a hitter in there with Sosa's power and I see a formula for hitting home runs: Bat Speed + Pitch recognition + power= 505HRs

That's misleading, though, because power is directly related to the mass of the bat you're swinging. If you're swinging a lighter bat, even if you're swinging it FASTER, it's not going to travel very much further at all. I think somebody else pointed it out earlier in the thread, but it's simple high school physics - the total momentum of a system can be represented by F = mv. Force = mass * velocity. If you increase the velocity, but decrease the mass, you're not going to hit the ball farther, because you're not putting the same force on the ball.

Now, bat speed + pitch recognition WILL help a fella add a few points to his batting average. If you can get around on the fastball more quickly, you're gonna make contact with it more often. It still isn't going to affect your home run total much at all (outside of maybe Denver), but you'll get an extra 10-20 hits a year if you're any good.

Josh

[RonnieDobbs]

The Physics of Baseball - Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060084367/qid=1054787127/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-0001548-6735806?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

This is the book that has been referenced in this debate. Although some may scoff at a "physics nerd" discussing baseball, it is really a great read and makes you think about the game in a different way. Check it out.

[Travis]

I think this has taught us all a very valuable lesson.

Don't smoke crack.

Give Sammy a hug next time you see him too, he needs our love.

[RonnieDobbs]

Originally posted by SackAttack
That's misleading, though, because power is directly related to the mass of the bat you're swinging. If you're swinging a lighter bat, even if you're swinging it FASTER, it's not going to travel very much further at all. I think somebody else pointed it out earlier in the thread, but it's simple high school physics - the total momentum of a system can be represented by F = mv. Force = mass * velocity. If you increase the velocity, but decrease the mass, you're not going to hit the ball farther, because you're not putting the same force on the ball.

Now, bat speed + pitch recognition WILL help a fella add a few points to his batting average. If you can get around on the fastball more quickly, you're gonna make contact with it more often. It still isn't going to affect your home run total much at all (outside of maybe Denver), but you'll get an extra 10-20 hits a year if you're any good.

Josh

I was trying to think of a good way to explain this right. Let's assume that a player has a set amount of base power, which when combined with the momentum of the bat swing leads to the power of the hit. The base power won't be changed by corking at all. As SA explained above, the corked bat won't increase the momentum of the bat at all. In reality, his ability to hit for power hasn't been effected at all assuming that he mass difference vs. velocity difference is negligle (which I have ever reason to think is true).

I wanted to see what the effect of a corked bat might look like in the statistics then. So, let's say a player used a corked bat for an entire season. We'll guess that that will raise his batting average 20 points (arbitrary, I know). In 1998, Sammy Sosa hit .308. Adding 20 points to that gets .328. He had 643 at bats, so with the improved bat speed he would have hit 211 hits instead of 198, or 13 additional hits. Exactly one third of his hits that year were home runs, so the 13 additional hits would net him 4 more home runs. So, obviously, to say that his home run hitting ability has been invalidated or questioned by this controversy is ridiculous.

I'm not trying to be a Sosa apologist here, just trying to put some perspective on this. By MLB rules and by common baseball sense, he's a cheater. He took a risk that was stupid and never should have been taken.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by SackAttack
Now, bat speed + pitch recognition WILL help a fella add a few points to his batting average. If you can get around on the fastball more quickly, you're gonna make contact with it more often. It still isn't going to affect your home run total much at all (outside of maybe Denver), but you'll get an extra 10-20 hits a year if you're any good.

Josh

Alright you missed my point. The corked bat itself adds no power, but the fact that a player who already has substantial power and has more time to recognize a pitch, will increace the number of times he makes solid contact. If that "fella" is a 235 pound Sammy Sosa, those few extra hits will travel 400 feet.

It looks like you guys didn't play much baseball or you would understand the longer you see a pitch the better your chance of hitting it on the sweet spot of the bat, and thats what leads to HRs. A persons strength is secondary to that.

[FishFan]

Originally posted by Neuqua
...I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

I think Sammy deserves this. I am amazed by the number of people who are not in Sammy's camp. He is one of the few class acts in the game and I really, truly believe this was an honest mistake.

Let's x-ray the warm-up bats of all the sluggers out there and see what we find. This whole mess has been blown out of proportion.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by FishFan
I think Sammy deserves this. I am amazed by the number of people who are not in Sammy's camp. He is one of the few class acts in the game and I really, truly believe this was an honest mistake.

Let's x-ray the warm-up bats of all the sluggers out there and see what we find. This whole mess has been blown out of proportion.

So your post with the article link was serious? I could have sworn you were being sarcastic. So Sammy was just trying to even the playing field huh?

[MrBug708]

No, no, no. That was poorly worded. The bats were taken yesterday and examined today. They were not taken today and tested today. The espn story is more carefully worded: Link


So, when Sammy was tossed, you don't think there might have been a chance that he grabbed a few of his bats as he left the stadium? Not saying he did and not saying he didn't. Its as likely as his story he gave

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
LOL that makes sense. Yeah I never really saw the corelation between putting sticky stuff on the bat and hitting the ball further, doesn't really make any sense. I guess the Yankees were just looking for something to save the game.

I remember reading something about the fact that that rule came about from one of those stingy owner who wanted it in there because having the tar higher on the bat makes the ball go icky (not technical term) and then they used up more baseballs.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by MrBug708
So, when Sammy was tossed, you don't think there might have been a chance that he grabbed a few of his bats as he left the stadium? Not saying he did and not saying he didn't. Its as likely as his story he gave

See, trying to look deeper into the situation with something like that merely starts a conspiracy and for that reason like I said before, it's all about what you personally decide to believe.

[KWhit]

You guys are amazing. If it would have been an unpopular player, no one would believe that story. But since it's Sammy, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Give me a break.

Everyone who breaks the rules has some sort of story to try to get out of (or lessen) the punishment.

[Cards4ever]

I don't think he was using corked bats, hell, there hasn't been any corks popped in the Cub clubhouse in almost 100 years!

[Maple Leafs]

This is just getting dumb.

Baseball players have been corking bats for the better part of a half century, but one physicist says it doesn't help and suddenly everyone is a disciple.

Even if you can twist your head around enough to believe that corking a bat wouldn't add any HRs, as someone has already shown above it will damn sure add up to 20-30 points to your average, which leads to more runs, RBIs, SLG, etc. Oh, and another million or two on the next contract.

I'm willing to wait and see about the whole "batting practice bat" story. Given time, the truth will come out, so I don't mind waiting. But if he was corking intentionally, he's a cheater. Period. All the fancy physics formulas you can find don't change that.

[Easy Mac]

The people who are quoting the "Physics of Baseball" are missing the point.

Sammy said he corked the bat for "exhibitions" to give the fans a show. Obviously, he was of the opinion that using these bats gives you greater distance. Whether it really does or not is irrelevant, since Sosa thought it did. Sammy knowingly had a corked bat that he used for the purpose of gaining an advantage in the distance and frequency of his hits.

So can you explain that, since in this situation quoting physics makes little sense.

[INDalltheway]

Easy Mac- It is a physcological thing. If you have a corked bat you would think you would hit the ball further, but in reality it doesn't add any distance. That is just the way I take, I could be wrong.

[clintl]

Let's put this in perspective with some other sports. NASCAR for example. Guys get caught using illegal parts all the time, and typically, they get fined and lose their points for that race as the penalty. It's happened to Jeff Gordon, among others. Yet no one argues that because he was caught once or twice that his 4 WC championships are tainted.

This is exactly the same situation that Sosa faces, but Sosa's entire career is being called into question over one incident. Has he used a corked bat before? Probably, but there's no real evidence he has, and so far, every check of bats used in his historic achievements has come up clean.

Next, there is the question of physics. The Sacramento Bee today had an article which, among other things, discussed tests performed on corked bats by a UC Davis physics professor. His results were that hit balls travelled 2% farther - that's 6 feet on a ball hit 300 ft. Sammy does not hit cheap HRs, so even if he used a corked bat all the time (which it is proven that he did not), it's doubtful that his HR total would have been greatly affected.

Now for the argument about being able to wait longer. The difference in bat speed from swinging a lighter bat only gives a hitter about 6 inches of advantage in recognizing a pitch. The mound is 726 inches from the plate, so that less than 1%. There is no way that such a small difference can amount to anything remotely in the area of 20 points in batting average.

There's no doubt that Sammy cheated, and that he should be fined and suspended something like 5-10 days. There's justification for calling into question his ethics. But there's absolutely no evidence for calling into question his past accomplishments based on the evidence we have right now. Even if he was a habitual cheater (and the evidence so far suggests otherwise), it simply would not have resulted in significantly different results, because the perceived advantages of corking bats is largely mythical, and has been shown to be so not only by theory but by experiment.

[ctmason]

There is a lot to be learned from all of this.....

....what it is I have no idea.

Stop all the fuss, people. Players cork bats, shoot roids and pop greenies. They do it all. They slap kids who ask for their autograph and defile places of public worship.

Nobody's picking on Rafael Palmero and we all know he uses a little cork in his bat, if you know what I mean.

[Cuckoo]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
dola

and if he saved baseball, something is wrong. I was bored by the McGuire/Sosa HR derby. The people who watched that did just that. People didn't watch it and say "baseball is great," they said those 2 are great. Those people don't watch the game anymore. Personally, the only thing saving baseball for me has been my Braves, its the only baseball I can watch from start to finish, and the only baseball I've followed since the strike.

I can't say he saved baseball, but I can say that he brought me back to the game, and I've been here ever since. I watched baseball religiously in the eighties and early nineties but stopped after the strike. As a lifelong Cubs fan, the HR chase in 98 coupled with the Cubs wildcard ride brought me back. I would have to speculate that it brought a number of others back to the game as well.

I'll have to agree with Neuqua on this. I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt at this point. It's not like he had too many stains on his record.

Edit to add: That said, even if you believe his story, he deserves to be punished for his mistake. I think maybe labelling him a cheater is going a bit far but a suspension is definitely warranted.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Cuckoo
I'll have to agree with Neuqua on this. I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt at this point. It's not like he had too many stains on his record.

Except for the stigma of possible steroid use and alienating many fans with his contract negotiations.

[sachmo71]

Baseball smells.

[Cuckoo]

So does Fritz

[SirFozzie]

Well, another dagger in the "All his homeruns are tainted because of the corked bat". The Hall Of Fame tested the five bats from 96 and other historic homeruns that Sammy had donated, all came up clean.

Score: 1 tainted bat, over 100 untainted bats (he's broken at least 20 bats in the last six years hasn't he? :)

While I still think he should get a 5-7 game suspension (rules are rules), I certainly hope we can get back to BASEBALL :)

(besides, it should have happened against the yankees. Shattered bat to the mound, Clemens picks it up, tries to toss it at Sammy, and it ends up in Row 30 where it's found corked, both Sammy and Roger are tossed, Sammy for swinging a corked bat, and Roger for throwing one :)

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Well, another dagger in the "All his homeruns are tainted because of the corked bat". The Hall Of Fame tested the five bats from 96 and other historic homeruns that Sammy had donated, all came up clean.Nah... Clemens would scuff it up first, then toss it to Giambi who would inject it.

[Anrhydeddu]

I don't hate the man. What I do hate is the "McGwire/Sosa" pairing. You tell me what record Sosa broke or set in 1998 and then I would agree that he should be mentioned in the same breath as McGwire.

[Daimyo]

McGwire never hit 60 HR in three different seasons did he?

EDIT: I think the reason they're paired is that in 1998 it was pretty much wide open for which one would set the record nearly right up until the end. They're not paired for the record itself, but for the chase of that record that they were both pretty equally involved in.

[MizzouRah]

Well, another dagger in the "All his homeruns are tainted because of the corked bat". The Hall Of Fame tested the five bats from 96 and other historic homeruns that Sammy had donated, all came up clean.

Score: 1 tainted bat, over 100 untainted bats (he's broken at least 20 bats in the last six years hasn't he?

Do you really think MLB really wants to turn up a bunch of corked bats? Especially the ones used in the McGwire/Sosa run to 61? How would that look to fans across the nation if one of his 'historical' bats from 96 turned up with a cork in it?

I'm not totally going conspiracy theory here, but I often wonder.


Todd

[pjstp20]

Alright here is my last few comments on this issue and then I'm done, it's getting tired. As I and many have said before MLB is not gonna say the other bats were corked, even if they were, call me a conspiracy freak or whatever, I just don't think they would. Second, even if he doesn't have more than one corked bat, who cares, fact is he had one. Last time I checked you only take one bat to the plate when you hit, so one is all you need. Finally, this incident brings Sammy's character into question. If he's willing to cheat with something as frivolous as a corked bat who's to say he wouldn't go with more effective cheating techniques that are impossible to catch i.e.) steroids.

[daedalus]

With regards to whether or not corking the bat changes anything (and I'm of the opinion that it does) . . . I think Easy Mac brought up a great point: Does it matter? If he did bring up a corked bat, then he knowingly cheated. Isn't that all that matters?

I was watching Baseball Tonight on and Peter Gammons brought up something: Sosa said he uses the corked bat as an show "for the fans" but according to Gammons, fans don't see batting practice at home. I don't go to games very much, is this true?

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I don't hate the man. What I do hate is the "McGwire/Sosa" pairing. You tell me what record Sosa broke or set in 1998 and then I would agree that he should be mentioned in the same breath as McGwire.

Sosa and McGwire were neck and neck that year until the final few days or so when McGwire went crazy and knocked out like 4 HRs in his last 2 games or something. And it was Sammy who took home the MVP award from that year.

Basically, as I said before with all these bats turning up 'clean' I'm going to go ahead and take Sammy's word in this situation. I don't buy that if it were any regular schmuck then this would all be for naught and the guy would be guilty. Sammy does have the reputation of being one of the game's good guys, if say, Edgar Martinez was in the same situation as Sammy don't you think people would give Edgar respect?

Sammy does not have a history of being a bad guy or bad teammate. You can see the way he plays (especially here in Chicago) that he truly loves playing the game. He loves his rightfield bleacher fans and they all love him.

Until another (and just one would be good enough) bat turns out 'dirty' then I will be in Sammy's corner. He deserves to be suspended whatever amount of games, definetly, but I'm not going to put an "asterick" around his other 505 HRs, for me there's not enough evidence to do that.

[Aylmar]

I agree with the retired pitcher (can't remember who it was) who said that if Sosa did that little hop step against him...he'd bean him the next time he came up to the plate. :)

On subject, I don't think it matters what the truth is. No amount of "fact-finding" or investigation will convince those people whose minds are already made up. Opinions about baseball are just too deeply engrained one way or another for people to think objectively.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by Aylmar
No amount of "fact-finding" or investigation will convince those people whose minds are already made up. Opinions about baseball are just too deeply engrained one way or another for people to think objectively.

You are exactly right.

[GrantDawg]

I can't believe that people are so stupid that they think Sammy would send a corked bat to the HOF. Then to say that he didn't send corked bats to the HOF PROVES anything is even dumber.

Listen, I like Sammy. I don't have anything against him, at least until this. I do get tired of people, who so obviously cheated, make up stupid excuses and let the lemmings around them defend it. His comments that said he was "innocent" are why I'll never respect the man again. Even if it was a mistake, he is not "innocent." He cheated. And the fact that he can’t admit that suggests to me he has cheated in more than just this.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I can't believe that people are so stupid that they think Sammy would send a corked bat to the HOF. Then to say that he didn't send corked bats to the HOF PROVES anything is even dumber.

My thoughts exactly, it seems that if people want to believe something they'll latch on to anything to validate those beliefs. The fact that none of his other bats were untampered with proves nothing to me either. Like I said before I don't think Sammy has made a habbit out of using juiced bats, but the lying I cannot stand. Why can't people call a spade a spade? He cheated, but no, were getting media reports on how corked bats do nothing. I have lost all respect for ESPN and MLBaseball. I'm done watching this farce of a sport. As for Sosa's lame excuse: I've learned to expect that from professional athletes who get caught red handed.

[clintl]

Actually, I think the fact that corked bats provide little if any advantage (and yes, it is a fact - physics is a hell of lot more reliable and well-established than sabremetrics, and there are people here that think sabremetrics is gospel) makes Sammy look even more stupid than if they really did work. It certainly does nothing to exonerate him.

[mckerney]

To me it doesn't matter that all his other bats turned up clean. He only needed one to cheat.

[ISiddiqui]

Yep... and of course he might have just had ONE corked bat for times when he felt he really needed it (like bottom of the 9th, or when he's in a slump). It isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

[Katon]

Originally posted by clintl
Actually, I think the fact that corked bats provide little if any advantage (and yes, it is a fact - physics is a hell of lot more reliable and well-established than sabremetrics, and there are people here that think sabremetrics is gospel) makes Sammy look even more stupid than if they really did work. It certainly does nothing to exonerate him.

True enough. Even if corking his bat doesn't help a bit - and the laws of physics are, as a rule, slightly more reliable than baseball common wisdom - he still thought it did and he still deserves the full penalty. On the other hand, I don't think that there should be an asterisk behind his historical achievements because of this for two reasons. First, we have no evidence that Sosa had been cheating in this way long-term. Granted, none of the evidence that he hadn't was unfakeable, but 'innocent until proven guilty' is a basic principle of justice. Second, even if he was corking his bat long-term, it had no effect. He hit precisely the same number of home runs and precisely the same number of hits that he would have otherwise.

[KWhit]

Is this the same physics book that says that there's no such thing as a curve ball?

[Craptacular]

8-game suspension for Sammy, and he appeals it.

Just another reason why I hate MLB. Here's a guy who admits he fucked up, and is waiting for the punishment. Then they hand down the suspension following previous precedent, and he still appeals. Why can't they hold the appeal NOW?? Instead, he gets to dictate when he wants to serve the suspension, and will be able to play against the Yankees. Keep the BS flowing guys.

edit to add link to ESPN article (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0606/1564235.html)

[ISiddiqui]

I totally agree, Craptacular.... how do you APPEAL something that you admitted you are wrong on?!

[Daimyo]

Did anyone seriously think MLB would let him miss the Yankees series?

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by Daimyo
Did anyone seriously think MLB would let him miss the Yankees series?

Of course not, and that's another reason why MLB is such a pathetic joke.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Daimyo
Did anyone seriously think MLB would let him miss the Yankees series?

I think Steinbrenner should complain that this is putting the Yankees at an unfair competitive disadvantage compared to Baltimore and Toronto, the next two series for the Cubs. :)

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by cuervo72
I think Steinbrenner should complain that this is putting the Yankees at an unfair competitive disadvantage compared to Baltimore and Toronto, the next two series for the Cubs. :) This is actually a bitter pill for the Blue Jays, at least in terms of marketing. Sammy's visit was one of the few potential big events they had coming this year.

[cuervo72]

I'd say the Orioles probably have the same opinion on it the Blue Jays do, now that you mention it.

[Easy Mac]

I think this once again proves MLB in its current form is not a real sport, because no one around there has any balls.

[sterlingice]

Are you trying to tell me that if NBC (now ABC) had a huge Christmas Day game between the Lakers and Spurs and Shaq got suspended in the previous game, the NBA wouldn't all but beg him to appeal his suspension so he sat out the next game against the Nuggets? Or how about if Ricky Williams was suspended right before Monday Night Football- he would conveniently be suspended for the next game.

More from the "you already know where you stand and now you're just looking for more ammo" files.

SI

[clintl]

Every sport allows appeals, and Sosa certainly is well within his rights to argue that the suspension is too harsh. Sometimes they do get reduced by a game or two on appeal.

[Craptacular]

I have no problem with allowing an appeal, although Sammy's case is a joke. Why can't the appeal be heard today? In a case like this, there's really no evidence that has to be prepared, there's no reason it has to be done in person, and there's a good amount of precedent. Is Bob DuPay or Watson or Bud or whoever hears the appeal in surgery for the next week or what?

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by Craptacular
I have no problem with allowing an appeal, although Sammy's case is a joke. Why can't the appeal be heard today? In a case like this, there's really no evidence that has to be prepared, there's no reason it has to be done in person, and there's a good amount of precedent. Is Bob DuPay or Watson or Bud or whoever hears the appeal in surgery for the next week or what?

This appeal cannot be heard today because they would lose tons of bucks for the Yankees-Cubs series. It's that simple. If you want to condemn baseball for that, condemn all the other sports because they would all do the same. I know you understand this: enough with the "darn hypocrites" posts already.

No, it's not right, but it's business as usual. All sports would do the same especially with a major network (Fox, in this case), breathing down their back.

SI

[clintl]

It is pretty much standard practice that the appeal doesn't get heard until a few days later. There's nothing special about Sammy's case in this respect. Usually, they wait until travel schedules between league officials and the player's team can get synched up. It's not like this is such an emergency that Watson or DuPuy or Selig need to drop everything else they're doing and get on the next plane to Chicago.

[Logan]

Originally posted by KWhit
Is this the same physics book that says that there's no such thing as a curve ball?

Don't think its the same guy who claims that a curveball is nothing but an optical illusion. Hey buddy...walk your ass up to the plate and try and hit that "illusion."

EDIT: Reading how some people believe Sosa's reasoning honestly sickens me. If you think for a second that ANY baseball player would ever take the wrong bat up to the plate with him, you have serious issues. Everybody has a "gamer" that they can pick out of a lineup of 4000 bats that look identical.

Ever see a hitter take a big cut, miss, and the bat flies out of his hands and into the first row behind the dugout? What happens? The fan doesn't keep that bat. The dugout will throw another one of the player's bats up on top of the dugout, the fan will take that bat, and give up the gamer.

I can only imagine the laughter that ensued in MLB clubhouses when they heard the excuse.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Logan
Don't think its the same guy who claims that a curveball is nothing but an optical illusion. Hey buddy...walk your ass up to the plate and try and hit that "illusion."


Yeah, I did a little bit of research and it is not the same book.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by clintl
It is pretty much standard practice that the appeal doesn't get heard until a few days later. There's nothing special about Sammy's case in this respect. Usually, they wait until travel schedules between league officials and the player's team can get synched up. It's not like this is such an emergency that Watson or DuPuy or Selig need to drop everything else they're doing and get on the next plane to Chicago.

Are you really naive enough to believe this? Now I can see why you posted what you did in the other thread.

[pjstp20]

Dola- Let me clarify, if you think Selig et. al. didn't drop a huge load in their pants when they realized how big this was gonna be, your mistaken. There's no such thing as standard practice in this situation because it's never happened to a player this big.

[Chief Rum]

pjstp20: If you're referring to the higher ups not really making a big deal about the situation, as clintl subits, then I agree that's probably not at all true.

However, he is right on that appeals are often heard days after the appeal is filed. In fact, I can't remember the last time an appeal was heard within three days of an appeal. I understand what you're saying about this not being just any situation, but when it comes down to the sheer matter of the appeal process, that HAS happened before, and that IS standard practice.

In fact, clintl's reasoning (that the team and league officials--and note this also includes the Player's Association) that all sides need to set up being in the same place at the same time is spot on with what I have always heard about such delays in the past.

Not to say baseball didn't breathe a sigh of relief that Sosa would be available for all the Yankees games, of course, but I don't think this part of this whole fiasco is nearly the conspiracy you seem to want it to be.

Chief Rum

[clintl]

I didn't mean to imply that they don't think it's a big deal. Of course they do. I just meant that there's no reason for them to expedite this particular appeal, when a normal appeal usually isn't heard for several days.

[clintl]

Originally posted by pjstp20
Dola- Let me clarify, if you think Selig et. al. didn't drop a huge load in their pants when they realized how big this was gonna be, your mistaken. There's no such thing as standard practice in this situation because it's never happened to a player this big.

FWIW, you're wrong about this, too. Maybe not for the particular offense of bat-corking, but certainly for other things. Sosa is not the first HOF-caliber player to be suspended.

[pjstp20]

No I think the appeals process has been pretty standard, but the way this has been dealt with has been vastly different than the past. As for my conspiracy theory, I know it's a bit much, but I still think it's true. If you look at the way baseball is dealing with steroids in their sport as compared to others it makes you scratch your head. Also look at the number of guys who have hit 50+ HRs since the strike of 94 compared to the history of the game and youll see a ridiculous increase. Its not beyond the realm of belief that MLB wants big numbers and I think they'll do anything to get them because it brings fan interest.

[clintl]

Please elaborate why you think that. I can't see any difference between the way MLB has dealt with this, and the way they have dealt with any other recent suspension.

As far as steroid testing goes, we all know the real answer to that - the MLBPA is powerful enough to keep testing out of the collective bargaining agreement. There have been been a lot of different theories about why offense has gone up recently, but no one has found one single reason, and my own opinion is that it is a combination of several.

[pjstp20]

I think that because (in my mind) people (media) were trying to make excuses for Sosa, as well as trying to state how little bat corking works. If Joe .280 hitter with 125 career homers in 10 years got caught with a cork we wouldn't see that.

As far as MLB goes I'm not sure if they'd analyze all the bats if it was a lesser player, but thats just a hunch, I'm to lazy to do research on how this incidence has been handled in the past. As far as suspensions and appeal that's been pretty much the same. The bottom line to me was there was a bigger sense of urgency in making sure the credibility of baseball didn't take a hit. But, alas I have no direct proof so take it for what it's worth. That being said I will now lay this to rest...........maybe.

[Craptacular]

Why again does the appeal need to take place in person? Do we have millionaire and billionaire people and organizations that can't afford a phone call or a videoconference? Before anyone tries to put more words into my mouth, this goes for any sports that have ridiculous appeals processes and allow the players to dictate their suspensions.

[clintl]

If you got suspended from your job, would you want the appeal to be handled by videoconference?

[Easy Mac]

I'm pretty sure your job doesn't wait a week to enforce your suspension because they are spineless.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I'm pretty sure your job doesn't wait a week to enforce your suspension because they are spineless.

Or they are not under control of a powerfull workers union which dictates the rules of when/if you can be suspended.