Trump Indictment/Trial thread-2023

[Thomkal]

Okay now that they have been revealed, lets move the discussion to the new thread.

[SirFozzie]

Honestly, one of the first things I'd do if I had a time machine is to take a bunch of 80's "Republicans are the party of Law and order" folks to the modern day, and show them these quotes. Just to watch their heads explode.

Again, if you had someone say "This is secret. I could've declassified it but didn't, so it's still a secret" about a plan to attack a foreign nation in a TV show, no one would buy it because people aren't that DUMB to incriminate themselves so casually.

But they are.

[GrantDawg]

What level of classification is so secret that the level had to be redacted?

[SirFozzie]

Probably Codeword related.

[JPhillips]

FFS

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Gobsmacking. Trump gift-wraps every element of the crime in about a 20 second conversation. <a href="https://t.co/rOw6RIX6xK">pic.twitter.com/rOw6RIX6xK</a></p>&mdash; Radley Balko (@radleybalko) <a href="https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/1667239881167216640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[RainMaker]

Good lord that indictment is about as damning as you'll ever see. Average citizen would spend the rest of their life in prison if they did that.

[GrantDawg]

Good lord that indictment is about as damning as you'll ever see. Average citizen would spend the rest of their life in prison if they did that.
But Obama once jaywalked and didn't get a ticket, so Trump should obviously go free.

[Atocep]

What level of classification is so secret that the level had to be redacted?

Any that use a codeword. They've had to change classification codewords multiple times because they keep leaking. I think Clancy leaked some by using them in one of his books at one point, IIRC.

[Galaril]

But her emails!

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1667167938141466630

[RainMaker]

Also, you know the stuff is incredibly top secret when even the control is being redacted.

[Lathum]

Going on record. Not only will he do zero jail time he will get off scott free. No chance there isn't at least one die hard MAGA on that jury who will wreck things.

[Ksyrup]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">By contrast to the leftist-dominated FBI we know that wokeness has already been killed in Florida, where woke goes to die, so this South Florida federal grand jury is 100% certified non-woke. <a href="https://t.co/qazdLEGIHP">https://t.co/qazdLEGIHP</a></p>&mdash; Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1667249038079545358?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[CrimsonFox]

*sniff*
Always special when our threads grow up and have a thread of their own.

[Thomkal]

Going on record. Not only will he do zero jail time he will get off scott free. No chance there isn't at least one die hard MAGA on that jury who will wreck things.


You just keep moving the goal posts on this-before it was the DOJ will never indict him, which now has happened, so maybe have a little faith.

[Thomkal]

*sniff*
Always special when our threads grow up and have a thread of their own.


heh

[GrantDawg]

*sniff*
Always special when our threads grow up and have a thread of their own.
"When a mommy thread and a daddy thread really love each other, then...."

[Lathum]

You just keep moving the goal posts on this-before it was the DOJ will never indict him, which now has happened, so maybe have a little faith.

I don’t recall saying he won’t be indicted but also don’t doubt I would. I’m not moving the goalposts. I have stayed perfectly consistent every time this comes up. It’s not about where in the process he slithers away, it’s about the fact he will never be held accountable. So far Ive been correct.

[RainMaker]

I admit I did not see an indictment for this coming months ago. What happens next is anyone's guess. I still find it hard to believe he'd end up in prison, even though that indictment is incredibly damning. This could drag on for years and years.

So many variables in play. You need just one fervent supporter on the jury. Or a judge he appointed.

If the rumors about him being charged for J6 and in Georgia for election interference, I could even see him just leaving the country altogether.

[GrantDawg]

Asa Hutchinson has called for Trump to leave the race "for the good of the cluntry." Not a surprising Republican to do that, but at least there is one.

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[Atocep]

I admit I did not see an indictment for this coming months ago. What happens next is anyone's guess. I still find it hard to believe he'd end up in prison, even though that indictment is incredibly damning. This could drag on for years and years.

So many variables in play. You need just one fervent supporter on the jury. Or a judge he appointed.

If the rumors about him being charged for J6 and in Georgia for election interference, I could even see him just leaving the country altogether.

It does look like the indictment in Georgia will drop sometime during the first 2 weeks in August. From what I read the prosecutor there has asked for no trials to be added those weeks, for extra police in the area between the court house and her office during that time period, and has told her staff they'll be teleworking in August.

[Brian Swartz]

one of the first things I'd do if I had a time machine is to take a bunch of 80's "Republicans are the party of Law and order" folks to the modern day, and show them these quotes. Just to watch their heads explode.

As someone who was one of those people in the 90s and to a lesser extent still am, I'll state for the record that I want Trump prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law on this stuff, and yesterday.

Of course, I didn't vote for him anyway and you're right about how most of those who did will react, but whatever conservatism used to stand for, one of those things is you don't tolerate this kind of nonsense in any way, shape, or form. My brother mentioned today that his new campaign slogan should be Make Trump Immune Again.

[bob]

It does look like the indictment in Georgia will drop sometime during the first 2 weeks in August. From what I read the prosecutor there has asked for no trials to be added those weeks, for extra police in the area between the court house and her office during that time period, and has told her staff they'll be teleworking in August.

As a Fulton county resident, I want no part of being on that jury.

[RainMaker]

Honestly, one of the first things I'd do if I had a time machine is to take a bunch of 80's "Republicans are the party of Law and order" folks to the modern day, and show them these quotes. Just to watch their heads explode.

Again, if you had someone say "This is secret. I could've declassified it but didn't, so it's still a secret" about a plan to attack a foreign nation in a TV show, no one would buy it because people aren't that DUMB to incriminate themselves so casually.

But they are.

Reagan and others in his administration committed treason. Far worse crimes than Trump is accused of. They let bankers run wild for decades committing financial crimes.

The law and order party was always just a dogwhistle. They don't mean law and order for themselves.

[Lathum]

If the rumors about him being charged for J6 and in Georgia for election interference, I could even see him just leaving the country altogether.

Wife and I at dinner tonight were discussing this. She isn't a big political person but is wicked smart. She asked about him being a flight risk. How can he not be, dude has his own plane and unlimited resource. That being said as the leading republican candidate they can't exactly jail him or put him under house arrest.

It really is crazy because if that was any of us we would be behind bars awaiting trial.

[albionmoonlight]

He’s not going to run to Russia. Running is admitting defeat. He does not back down. He doubles down.

[GrantDawg]

https://twitter.com/McJesse/status/1667296912943493120?t=gyLPUrhv3JDHdlIncJK0Bg&s=19

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[Lathum]

Thats amazing

[CrimsonFox]

FFS

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Gobsmacking. Trump gift-wraps every element of the crime in about a 20 second conversation. <a href="https://t.co/rOw6RIX6xK">pic.twitter.com/rOw6RIX6xK</a></p>&mdash; Radley Balko (@radleybalko) <a href="https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/1667239881167216640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

please show your work

[molson]

I felt a little dirty about it, but I went to FoxNews.com, just curious what the headline story would be, and its was a recap of some analyst's appearance on the network saying that "the other prosecution was just a political hackjob, but this one is a different story and serious and damning shit".

[RainMaker]

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">Uhhhhhh <a href="https://t.co/Rc4xhoSIMr">pic.twitter.com/Rc4xhoSIMr</a></p>&mdash; Lorie Liebig (@lorieliebig) <a href="https://twitter.com/lorieliebig/status/1667248416538218662?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[CrimsonFox]

:banghead:

[CrimsonFox]

Tweeted it!

https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353428570_10231906525231345_5360834804744909601_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=fZ0FWahKfJAAX940evw&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AfBbQYQz_dNrcJJiTzJhBwFFs9UoKx-oYqSLUFag2GDaVQ&oe=6489181B

[Thomkal]

Yeah Ari Melber showed several clips of him yesterday during campaign rallies saying that about classified information. I guess no one but him because he is the law.

[Ksyrup]

Putting aside the charges for a moment, the tweets by Trump, Biggs and Higgins that I've seen should be throwing up red flags everywhere. They are very J6-like and take a military tone. I'm sure people will just blow it off as cosplay and riling up the rubes, but regardless of what anyone thinks of Trump or these charges, the fact that after J6 we have Congressmen publicly making those kinds of statements is insane to me. And they do it because they know they have no accountability. It's all upside for the grift/true believer engagement.

Edit: and of course I see Kari Lake has joined in the "fun."

[CrimsonFox]

https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353034754_737239171781418_1372483012100183183_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=TG7RYE81ORYAX_JEUET&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAksIQAqIU8PRCE2Qna69iygHgj1So7YVdyARZ1-DrAFQ&oe=6488A89A

[Toddzilla]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wow. Disney+ changed the ending of Raiders of the Lost Ark... <a href="https://t.co/JWWLTs9CYt">pic.twitter.com/JWWLTs9CYt</a></p>&mdash; Jesse McLaren (@McJesse) <a href="https://twitter.com/McJesse/status/1667296912943493120?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Atocep]

I've been reading some analysis of the indictment. It sounds like what Jack Smith did is lawyer porn. A lot of attorneys I've seen comment on it are impressed with how thorough, detailed, and well written this indictment is while keeping it easy to read and understand from a general public perspective. I've also seen multiple comment on how easy to prove a case like this is and how Trump is very likely screwed unless we get some judge or jury weirdness.

The J6 stuff is going to be much more difficult to handle from an indictment and getting a jury to understand the specifics of it standpoint. They really need Meadows' cooperation there.

[GrantDawg]

This should be the answer for anyone that asks "Why Trump and not Hillary or Pence?"
<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.” This point should be the first thing you say to a MAGA on the topic of the indictment.</p>&mdash; Indicted Donald (@indicteddonald) <a href="https://twitter.com/indicteddonald/status/1667931810108686336?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 11, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[molson]

This point should be the first thing you say to a MAGA on the topic of the indictment.

That sounds too exhausting to even attempt.

[flere-imsaho]

If you talked to a MAGA, you should just make shit up about Trump. It's not like they're going to fact-check anyway.

"He made it so that 1/3 of social security payments now go to people in Russia."

[Ksyrup]

Trump faces 37-count indictment. Why are we holding him accountable? (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2023/06/11/trump-indictment-classified-documents-evidence-accountability/70307577007/)

[PilotMan]

'If you want to die in jail, keep talking' – two national security law experts discuss the special treatment for Trump and offer him some advice (https://theconversation.com/if-you-want-to-die-in-jail-keep-talking-two-national-security-law-experts-discuss-the-special-treatment-for-trump-and-offer-him-some-advice-207482)

[albionmoonlight]

After bunch of GOPers get on record with their "political prosecution is bad" talking point, Tricky Don changes the script and is now arguing that political prosecution is good, actually:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FybxG8XWcAUdrcv?format=jpg&name=medium

[Lathum]

Trump faces 37-count indictment. Why are we holding him accountable? (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2023/06/11/trump-indictment-classified-documents-evidence-accountability/70307577007/)

A little forced in places but amusing

[Lathum]

dola- MAGAs really do make it so easy to mock them.

[Lathum]

'If you want to die in jail, keep talking' – two national security law experts discuss the special treatment for Trump and offer him some advice (https://theconversation.com/if-you-want-to-die-in-jail-keep-talking-two-national-security-law-experts-discuss-the-special-treatment-for-trump-and-offer-him-some-advice-207482)

: Trump’s insistence on keeping talking about this creates a record that would justify isolation in maximum security on the basis that “We can’t trust this man not to continue to talk. We can’t trust him not to further share these secrets with people who may wish to do harm with them. The only way to avoid that is to put him in isolation in supermax where he doesn’t get to talk with people, except under these extremely closely monitored circumstances, certainly isn’t in a general population situation, gets to take a walk in a courtyard for one hour out of the 24 hours of the day, and the other 23 hours, leaving him mostly without human contact.”

God I hope this happens

[Ksyrup]

It's all fantasyland talk of him going to jail, but you know Trump would be talking so much shit, holding court with all of these prisoners, promising things, etc. He'd make the most of the situation and, if he can't be King of America, he'll crown himself King of Cellblock A.

[Lathum]

‘I Want Blood’: Heavily-Armed Trump Supporters Say They’ll Protest Trump’s Indictment (https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d995k/trump-indictment-armed-protests-miami)

[Atocep]

Sounds like Trump is having a really difficult time finding an attorney to represent him on this. David Markus turned him down, although I'm not sure what made Trump think he'd be interested to begin with.

[CrimsonFox]

Sounds like Trump is having a really difficult time finding an attorney to represent him on this. David Markus turned him down, although I'm not sure what made Trump think he'd be interested to begin with.

I'd represent him and take the loss...but then again whoever fails this trial will get attacked tho.

But seriously...they should just appoint him one.

[Ksyrup]

"If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appoi..."

"Oh, he can afford one. They just can't afford to have him as a client."

[Brian Swartz]

God I hope this happens

I don't. It's inhumane to treat anybody that way, including people we Really Don't Like.

I'm on the side of thinking the smart thing, from a purely self-preservation standpoint, would be for Trump to leave the country. I'm not confident in him realizing that though, and I don't want it to happen anyway.

[JPhillips]

Trump: I need an attorney.

Firm: Ok. Here's what retainer we'll need.

Trump: I'll pay that later. Trust me.

Firm: (Hangs up)

[GrantDawg]

Sounds like Trump is having a really difficult time finding an attorney to represent him on this. David Markus turned him down, although I'm not sure what made Trump think he'd be interested to begin with.
I thought Todd Blanche was handling this since the two DC attorneys stepped down.


Edit: Now I see what is going on. They need someone from the local, and they can't find anyone.

[GrantDawg]

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="zxx" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/cAuZJTUvwC">pic.twitter.com/cAuZJTUvwC</a></p>&mdash; mike luckovich (@mluckovichajc) <a href="https://twitter.com/mluckovichajc/status/1668347933115183104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 12, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[Ksyrup]

I just saw Trumpers referred to as the Chucklefuck Mafia and I can't stop laughing.

[GrantDawg]

Chris Kise is going to be the lawyer from the local bar. They are still shopping for a bigger local name.

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[CrimsonFox]

Is everyone ready for the maganuts to storm the castle tomorrow?

[Lathum]

I don't. It's inhumane to treat anybody that way, including people we Really Don't Like.

I'm on the side of thinking the smart thing, from a purely self-preservation standpoint, would be for Trump to leave the country. I'm not confident in him realizing that though, and I don't want it to happen anyway.

Like they say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

[bronconick]

I don't. It's inhumane to treat anybody that way, including people we Really Don't Like.

I'm on the side of thinking the smart thing, from a purely self-preservation standpoint, would be for Trump to leave the country. I'm not confident in him realizing that though, and I don't want it to happen anyway.

That would be admitting that he lost, and he's incapable of that.

[Lathum]

No chance he takes a deal. He will go to trial and delay through the election.

[Lathum]

So if the MAGA Trumpanzies go nuts tomorrow with a 1/6 type event or one of them starts shooting does it help or hurt Trump?

[GrantDawg]

I've been thinking about the same thing. Violence is never popular.

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[Qwikshot]

I've been thinking about the same thing. Violence is never popular.

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You guys remember J6 right? And who is the front runner for the Republican party?

They are counting on violence.

[GrantDawg]

That hasn't won them elections, though. Independents, moderates, soccer moms. These are not groups that respond well to violence.

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[CrimsonFox]

Like they say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

there's SO MUCH IRONY in that song considering it was the Baretta theme :)

[JPhillips]

No chance he takes a deal. He will go to trial and delay through the election.

At this point he pretty much has to. His most likely way to avoid punishment is to either shut down the prosecution or pardon himself.

[Qwikshot]

That hasn't won them elections, though. Independents, moderates, soccer moms. These are not groups that respond well to violence.

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I understand what you are saying, but Trump barely lost the last election. When all was said and done, things tipped via Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona and Nevada right?

The violence will seek to intimidate most voters. As things ramp up, there will be more and more rhetoric to violence. You have people in goverment who are all for it. If things spill over tomorrow, bet your bottom dollar that voting areas in battleground states will be targeted, if not just checking voter registration and intimidating voters at their home.

I think you'll find the rhetoric now is that if Trump is actually brought to trial, people will be hunted and killed. I knew there would be violence J6 and I'm sure tomorrow will be the start of targeting opposition to Trump and MAGA.

Trump/MAGAT is an ideology that is just begging for bloodshed. If death happens tomorrow, government supporters to Trump will escalate it as a call to arms. There is no de-escalation with the MAGAT ideology, there is only a doubling down.

[GrantDawg]

Ramping up the violence will come with a severe backlash. It will not end as good thing for the MAGA movement. That may be what they hope for, but that will not be were it will go.

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[Lathum]

If there is violence in the name of Trump I wonder if he loses the religious right.

The whole Thou Shall Not Kill thing seems pretty important to them

[NobodyHere]

Are you being sarcastic?

[Flasch186]

I assume so


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[CrimsonFox]

https://the-take.com/images/uploads/screenprism/_constrain-1080w/A_Clockwork_Orange_Nadsat.jpg

MAGA people already gathering outside the courthouse.

[Qwikshot]

I have seen enough MAGATs flying the Trump 2024 Revenge flags to know who the revenge is for, and how it will be dispensed out.

They want to intimidate/discourage/violate the regular voter and they'll do anything to subvert question the vote.

They really do want to start killing people, Trump being incarcerated would be enough I think. They don't believe any other candidate is worthwhile, it really is Trump or death.

[Brian Swartz]

Like they say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I agree with that. I don't agree with 23-hour-a-day isolation being an appropriate punishment for any crime.

[Lathum]

I agree with that. I don't agree with 23-hour-a-day isolation being an appropriate punishment for any crime.

So he should be free to spill state secrets?

IMO if he is found guilty he should be executed for treason.

[Brian Swartz]

I would suggest reading up on what treason is. This isn't that. Are you saying you think we should execute people who don't commit capital crimes because we think they did something that *should* be?

[thesloppy]

So he should be free to spill state secrets?

IMO if he is found guilty he should be executed for treason.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do think you're right that Trump is probably spilling secrets wherever he goes and sticking him in prison probably puts all those secrets at even more risk.

[Lathum]

I would suggest reading up on what treason is. This isn't that. Are you saying you think we should execute people who don't commit capital crimes because we think they did something that *should* be?

I know what treason is.

Are you so naïve as to think he hasn't used those documents to leverage shit with the Saudis and other bad actors?

[Lathum]

apparently a judge has ruled no cell phones allowed in the court room so details will be slow coming.

[Brian Swartz]

Are you so naïve as to think he hasn't used those documents to leverage shit with the Saudis and other bad actors?

We don't know what he's done in that area. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the indictment doesn't address that. Even if it had, that would still not be treason.

My point is that if he's found guilty of the crimes in the indictment, I think he should be given the punishment the law stipulates for those crimes. Unless i'm misinformed, that's 10-20 years maximum for the worst of them. That would mean Trump dies in prison if convicted.

[Lathum]

That would mean Trump dies in prison if convicted.

We can hope

[CrimsonFox]

https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353838423_10168448378925112_5644675568139130714_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=C83o5n1sLEEAX_a3XdT&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDBvGugoTxWEoxinrtcXpcL-LT_R--jpedt-hXzLVPv1w&oe=648C16EB

[CrimsonFox]

I know what treason is.

Are you so naïve as to think he hasn't used those documents to leverage shit with the Saudis and other bad actors?

OH NO! He's going to tell Hayden Christenson?!?

[Lathum]

Watching coverage of outside the courthouse. So far 2 things stand out.

These people who support him are sick. Like, really mentally ill.

Currently Trump supporters and protesters are intermingling. So far seems somewhat peaceful, but if they are still intermingled when more people show up and the likes of Kari Lake start whipping them into a frenzy it could get bad.

[albionmoonlight]

These people who support him are sick. Like, really mentally ill.

It is the subset of supporters who are going to come out for this.

[Atocep]

The most frustrating part of this for me is reading and listening to the takes of people that have absolutely no idea how document classification/declassification works.

[BYU 14]

Watching coverage of outside the courthouse. So far 2 things stand out.

These people who support him are sick. Like, really mentally ill.

Currently Trump supporters and protesters are intermingling. So far seems somewhat peaceful, but if they are still intermingled when more people show up and the likes of Kari Lake start whipping them into a frenzy it could get bad.

It's really hard to believe that 10 years ago Kari Lake was a likeable, tolerant person, who was one of the most popular newscasters in Arizona. Delusion and greed are powerful drugs.

[PilotMan]

The most frustrating part of this for me is reading and listening to the takes of people that have absolutely no idea how document classification/declassification works.


I read an editorial this morning that basically reduced the entire thing to an administrative issue. "

Like if trump parked in a no parking zone, or jaywalked. That all sorts of politicians get dinged for admin issues, and that at worst, this whole thing should only amount to a 'slap on the wrists' but here we are"

[Thomkal]

He and Walt Nauta are officially under arrest

[albionmoonlight]

Sounds like the "media will outnumber protestors" predictions were right (or close to right).

Never not been about crowd size with him.

[Lathum]

Just heard one of the Ohio senators say they will refuse to vote on any of Biden’s DOJ nominations to grind the justice dept to a halt. These people are deranged.

[GrantDawg]

J.D Vance. He said he is going to put a hold on all nominees, which means he won't allow a vote.

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[BYU 14]

Sounds like the "media will outnumber protestors" predictions were right (or close to right).

Never not been about crowd size with him.

But the folks that did show up are gems, exhibit A talking about Judge Cannon

“She’s one of us,” Estrada said, referencing Cannon’s Cuban heritage. “We already know what’s going to happen—this corruption won’t stand. Everyone here knows that. That's why you see so many smiles. We're all just enjoying this beautiful moment before we win again.”

Last time I think he 'won' was 2016, which is a long time ago my man.

[Lathum]

J.D Vance. He said he is going to put a hold on all nominees, which means he won't allow a vote.

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There needs to be guardrails against shit like this.

[Atocep]

And he's back to claiming the DOJ planted the classified documents that he was allowed to take because he declassified them.

[Ksyrup]

Wasn't someone around here arguing that JD Vance was one of the "normal" ones?

[flere-imsaho]

We don't know what he's done in that area. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the indictment doesn't address that.

I would imagine the prosecutors didn't go that way because it would be harder to prove, but it's not exactly a secret that Mar-a-Lago has been awash with foreign agents: Mar-a-Lago a magnet for spies, officials warn after nuclear file reportedly found | Mar-a-Lago | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/07/mar-a-lago-trump-nuclear-documents-spies)

How many foreign agents saw or stole (or were shown by Trump) sensitive national defense documents?

Even if it had, that would still not be treason.

"Aid and comfort" to the nation's enemies could very well include furnishing them with sensitive national defense documents. Arguably. Regardless of which part of the Constitution or U.S. code you want to refer, the point is that his actions with these documents (even the actions described in the tape transcripts alone) are potentially ruinous for our intelligence apparatus and that of our allies. Frankly, it should be a hanging offense.

Ethel and Julius Rosenberg were executed for basically this, though the charge there was espionage.

[SirFozzie]

Wasn't someone around here arguing that JD Vance was one of the "normal" ones?

he's even the one who explained that being pro-Trump took over everything else including reality

[Lathum]

Wasn't someone around here arguing that JD Vance was one of the "normal" ones?

I think you are referencing something I said where the context was in comparison to other candidates, Oz, Walker, et al.

[Lathum]

he's even the one who explained that being pro-Trump took over everything else including reality

Is this directed at me?

[SirFozzie]

no, JD vance.

he called Trump "America's Hitler" to one of his friends as well before being a convert

[Lathum]

no, JD vance.

he called Trump "America's Hitler" to one of his friends as well before being a convert

aha. OK. I had commented during primary season he was normal compared to Oz, et al and it was taken out of context

[SirFozzie]

This is the post I was referring to:

https://twitter.com/JoshforGeorgia/status/1516093390378741763

He makes a good point, but either he got eaten by the brainworms, or he's damn good at pretending to be.

[JPhillips]

Vance went from writing a book with the message to rural whites being, "it isn't someone else's fault," to a candidate whose message was, "actually everything is someone else's fault." He's willing to say whatever he needs to to please the people funding and voting for him. Unfortunately, he's far from unique in that within the GOP.

[cuervo72]

Meanwhile, at Fox...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">An actual banner that just aired on Fox. <br><br>This is not a legitimate news organization that should have privileged press credentials. <a href="https://t.co/D0xNjfwEtQ">pic.twitter.com/D0xNjfwEtQ</a></p>&mdash; No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen (@NoLieWithBTC) <a href="https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1668797396313075713?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 14, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Brian Swartz]

That's actually one whale of a thorny question; who gets to decide that, and on what basis?

[PilotMan]

Meanwhile, at Fox...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">An actual banner that just aired on Fox. <br><br>This is not a legitimate news organization that should have privileged press credentials. <a href="https://t.co/D0xNjfwEtQ">pic.twitter.com/D0xNjfwEtQ</a></p>&mdash; No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen (@NoLieWithBTC) <a href="https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1668797396313075713?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 14, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's a new low and a legit escalation of rhetoric.

[Galaril]

That's actually one whale of a thorny question; who gets to decide that, and on what basis?

What do you mean?

[JPhillips]

Trump's assertion and the growing GOP position is that the Presidential Records Act lets the President take whatever personal items he/she wants, so Trump is cleared. Taking that to an extreme, though, means that a President could literally box up every top-secret document in the executive branch and leave with them when the term is over.

What has happened to the GOP and all to protect a guy like Trump.

[MJ4H]

Trump's assertion and the growing GOP position is that the Presidential Records Act lets the President take whatever personal items he/she wants, so Trump is cleared. Taking that to an extreme, though, means that a President could literally box up every top-secret document in the executive branch and leave with them when the term is over.

What has happened to the GOP and all to protect a guy like Trump.

The bizarre thing is the PRA says exactly the opposite of that.

[albionmoonlight]

The legal argument is that it is the Presidential Records Act. So it is an Act that lets the President keep all the Records. It really is that dumb of an argument.

And I can see that Trump is stupid enough to believe that. But I am saddened by all of the GOPers who know better who are out there trying to confuse the base.

[albionmoonlight]

There needs to be guardrails against shit like this.

No amount of guardrails will work when we keep electing horrible people.

The system depends on a base level of norms and integrity by the people running it.

[PilotMan]

Trump's assertion and the growing GOP position is that the Presidential Records Act lets the President take whatever personal items he/she wants, so Trump is cleared. Taking that to an extreme, though, means that a President could literally box up every top-secret document in the executive branch and leave with them when the term is over.

What has happened to the GOP and all to protect a guy like Trump.


I mean, one of the things that was taught back in middle school civics was that all gifts and things that the President gets while in office belong to the office, not the person. So if China gifts him a pretty vase at an official diplomatic function that after he leaves, he doesn't keep it. It stays with the WH and it's not actually his.



How did we go from that complete, total, and accepted version of the office of the President to this new one that says the President can just do what he wants when he wants because he's the President?

[Ghost Econ]

I mean, one of the things that was taught back in middle school civics was that all gifts and things that the President gets while in office belong to the office, not the person. So if China gifts him a pretty vase at an official diplomatic function that after he leaves, he doesn't keep it. It stays with the WH and it's not actually his.

How did we go from that complete, total, and accepted version of the office of the President to this new one that says the President can just do what he wants when he wants because he's the President?

To be fair, I was at a beta club convention a few years ago where now Presidential hopeful Tim Scott proudly admitted to grade schoolers that he failed high school civics. It's a badge of honor for a certain part of the country.

[PilotMan]

Seems like the real strategy is the one they've been using for a while now. Muddy the waters with enough reasons, doubling back on existed, multitudes of different accusations, that all generally serve to overwhelm the main points, sew confusion, and then blame the government and the media for everything to the point that the average person stops listening and is willing to accept "both sides" as a valid argument. It's exactly what I hear when I hear Jim explain his points. And I see Jim as a pretty average consumer who keeps most political stuff on the periphery, but still runs all of it through his filters. I imagine that's more representative of the public in general than the focus that we give things here on the board. It's also exceptionally effective. Just muddy it all up so it's what people want to ignore and blame for bothering them, then actually attend to the issues at hand.

[Atocep]

Seems like the real strategy is the one they've been using for a while now. Muddy the waters with enough reasons, doubling back on existed, multitudes of different accusations, that all generally serve to overwhelm the main points, sew confusion, and then blame the government and the media for everything to the point that the average person stops listening and is willing to accept "both sides" as a valid argument. It's exactly what I hear when I hear Jim explain his points. And I see Jim as a pretty average consumer who keeps most political stuff on the periphery, but still runs all of it through his filters. I imagine that's more representative of the public in general than the focus that we give things here on the board. It's also exceptionally effective. Just muddy it all up so it's what people want to ignore and blame for bothering them, then actually attend to the issues at hand.


100%

They can't come out and just say, yeah this is bad. Trump really fucked up and the evidence suggests he's unfit for office at the very least.

Something like that may lead someone to think, hey maybe the dems are the good guys in this. I don't agree with their policies, but I'm not sure I want my vote attached to these other guys.

Instead, you do your best to downplay the charges and try to convince as many people as you can that dems are just as bad. Luckily, you've spent years training your base to accept the info you give at face value and not to believe anything else.

Is this a winning strategy? No, but neither is backing Trump. It's a safe strategy with your voters, though, and if you gerrymander enough it keeps you competitive in elections.

[GrantDawg]

It comes down to the same thing in the election stuff. They throw out a thousand false theories, and just flood the zone with "facts" that have no bearing in reality.

[Brian Swartz]

What do you mean?

I mean the one raised by PilotMan's post just above mine. What news organization's get press credentials, or is it just anyone, and if it's not just anyone is the government legitimately in the business of deciding who can cover what it does. If its the latter, you have a real problem with the press being able to actually do it's job, to the degree they are interested in doing it. I.e. who decides when a press outlet is just a bunch of propagandist nonsense and when it is a legitimate news organization?

[GrantDawg]

I mean the one raised by PilotMan's post just above mine. What news organization's get press credentials, or is it just anyone, and if it's not just anyone is the government legitimately in the business of deciding who can cover what it does. If its the latter, you have a real problem with the press being able to actually do it's job, to the degree they are interested in doing it. I.e. who decides when a press outlet is just a bunch of propagandist nonsense and when it is a legitimate news organization?
You quoted me, and I never asked that. I knew what you were talking about.


edit: It was Galaril (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3344) that asked

[Brian Swartz]

Thanks. Corrected.

[Brian Swartz]

No amount of guardrails will work when we keep electing horrible people.

The system depends on a base level of norms and integrity by the people running it.

This. One of my favorite historical quotes is by Sir Edmund Burke, occasions for it come up every now and then. Short version:

"It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."

In other words, government by the people depends on the people making generally good decisions, including about who their representatives will be. An increasing number of people are unqualified for the amount of power and freedom they possess. If that trend continues, democracy won't last even if there isn't a major party actively attacking it.

[RainMaker]

The bizarre thing is the PRA says exactly the opposite of that.


Yeah, it's very clear what the law allows here. They'll make some stupid arguments and hope one of the judges they've bought signs off on it.

[GrantDawg]

It wouldn't surprise me at all that Judge Cannon will rule that way, but I don't think the appellate court is going to agree.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Galaril]

I mean the one raised by PilotMan's post just above mine. What news organization's get press credentials, or is it just anyone, and if it's not just anyone is the government legitimately in the business of deciding who can cover what it does. If its the latter, you have a real problem with the press being able to actually do it's job, to the degree they are interested in doing it. I.e. who decides when a press outlet is just a bunch of propagandist nonsense and when it is a legitimate news organization?

Ah thanks got it now.

[albionmoonlight]

I saw a pretty obvious point that I had not considered before. Trump declared as a candidate, in part, to shield himself from indictment. But it turns out that he ended up making his indictment more likely,

For all Trump/MAGA whine that this is a witch hunt, the reality is that Biden/Garland are moderates who strongly believe in norms. I think that they had a strong personal preference against charging him.

But when he became a candidate, he forced a special counsel. And the SC is not constrained by personal feelings or politics--it is just about the law.

And that's bad for Trump.

He was so worried that they were out to get him that he didn't realize they were protecting him.

[bronconick]

If Trump ends up in jail because of listening to non-lawyer Tom Fitten, it'll be the best thing Judicial Watch has ever done

[SirFozzie]

I saw a pretty obvious point that I had not considered before. Trump declared as a candidate, in part, to shield himself from indictment. But it turns out that he ended up making his indictment more likely,

For all Trump/MAGA whine that this is a witch hunt, the reality is that Biden/Garland are moderates who strongly believe in norms. I think that they had a strong personal preference against charging him.

But when he became a candidate, he forced a special counsel. And the SC is not constrained by personal feelings or politics--it is just about the law.

And that's bad for Trump.

He was so worried that they were out to get him that he didn't realize they were protecting him.

If he didn't want to be indicted, they gave him double digit off ramps and declined each and every one of them

[Lathum]

If Trump ends up in jail because of listening to non-lawyer Tom Fitten, it'll be the best thing Judicial Watch has ever done

I am reading some of this shit and it is a riot. Completely validates the theory that Trump will listen to whomever tells him what he wants to hear and this is likely the reason he can't retain a decent attorney.

[Lathum]

Trump's obsession with cable news pundits could be his downfall | Media Matters for America (https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/trumps-obsession-cable-news-pundits-could-be-his-downfall)

Trump time and again rejected the advice from lawyers and advisers who urged him to cooperate and instead took the advice of Tom Fitton, the head of the conservative group Judicial Watch, and a range of others who told him he could legally keep the documents and should fight the Justice Department, advisers said. Trump would often cite Fitton to others, and Fitton told some of Trump’s lawyers that Trump could keep the documents, even as they disagreed, the advisers said.

It is really hard to comprehend that millions of people think the guy who should lead our nation was told by his attorneys if he gave back the documents everything would be clear, and instead said, nah, I am going to trust the TV guy in a shrunken shirt and take on the DOJ and their 96% conviction rate.

[Atocep]

I am reading some of this shit and it is a riot. Completely validates the theory that Trump will listen to whomever tells him what he wants to hear and this is likely the reason he can't retain a decent attorney.

Can you imagine the work and coordination white house staff had to pull off to keep his presidency from going off the rails more than it did?

[GrantDawg]

I have a new hobby right now, and that's watching arrests and court cases of "Sovereign Citizens." These people find this stuff online and just fully buy in on it. It is completely batcrap crazy. You can watch them over and over again be shocked when they get arrested following the script of whatever SovCit guru they subscribe to. It is Q-anon come to life.
They remind me so much of Trump and Trumpers. They want to believe this, and they are willing to go all in to try and make it reality.

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[Atocep]

I have a new hobby right now, and that's watching arrests and court cases of "Sovereign Citizens." These people find this stuff online and just fully buy in on it. It is completely batcrap crazy. You can watch them over and over again be shocked when they get arrested following the script of whatever SovCit guru they subscribe to. It is Q-anon come to life.
They remind me so much of Trump and Trumpers. They want to believe this, and they are willing to go all in to try and make it reality.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk


ArE yOu DeTaInInG mE?????

[GrantDawg]

I choose as a free live person not to enter a contract with this corporation. I want to speak to your supervisor.

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[PilotMan]

All I think about is the episode of Family Guy where Peter creates Petoria.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vKJtiuERWLY" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Lathum]

Can you imagine the work and coordination white house staff had to pull off to keep his presidency from going off the rails more than it did?

And the scary thing is during his first term there were a lot of establishment people around him. We may not like John Bolton or bill Barr but they weren’t going to let him run us into the ground. Anyone with a brain this time around is going to stay as far away as possible so we’re going to end up with Kid Rock as Secretary of State.

[Kodos]

Scott Adams will probably get a spot.

[Brian Swartz]

It is really hard to comprehend that millions of people think the guy who should lead our nation was told by his attorneys if he gave back the documents everything would be clear, and instead said, nah, I am going to trust the TV guy in a shrunken shirt and take on the DOJ and their 96% conviction rate.

Not hard to comprehend at all when you realize how bad many of them think the alternative is. They'd say it's hard to comprehend how anyone in their right mind would ever vote for someone like Biden.

[Lathum]

Not hard to comprehend at all when you realize how bad many of them think the alternative is. They'd say it's hard to comprehend how anyone in their right mind would ever vote for someone like Biden.

Like I said. It is very hard to comprehend. We are a nation of morons.

[Lathum]

dola- It is hard to comprehend how they can think he is a better alternative, never mind the fact at this point it isn't between him and Biden and he still has overwhelming support.

Lets also not act for one second there are aa lot of people picking Trump using the logic he is a better choice than Biden. Are there some, of course, but there are also a lot of people who legitimately think he is the best president ever.

[Brian Swartz]

The number of people who think that aren't even a majority of Trump supporters. One poll by Pew a couple years ago found that 17% of Americans and 37% of Republicans found Trump to be the best President of the last 40 years. In other words, the majority of people who support Trump don't think that. On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

[thesloppy]

Not this shit again.

[Lathum]

The number of people who think that aren't even a majority of Trump supporters. One poll by Pew a couple years ago found that 17% of Americans and 37% of Republicans found Trump to be the best President of the last 40 years. In other words, the majority of people who support Trump don't think that. On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

Sorry. I often forget how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us who exist a few planes below you.

[NobodyHere]

Not this shit again.

Sorry. I often forget how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us who exist a few planes below you.

I love the witty intellectual debates we have here on FOFC.

[Lathum]

On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

OK. I'll put myself in the shoes of a Trump supporter

I hate gays
I hate blacks
I hate women
The election was stolen
I hate the media
I hate brown people and all immigrants except the white ones
I hate education
I hate free lunches for kids
I'm cool with school shootings as long as I get my guns
I hate trans people
cancel culture is bad unless it is something I want cancelled
but Hillary
but hunter
Biden is a criminal mastermind who rigged the election BUT ALSO too feble minded to be POTUS
I hate the environment
I hate SS
Jan 6th was a peaceful loving day

I am probably missing some but yes, when I look at this list I very much feel my views are superior.

edit just to say I am cool with Nazis and The Ukraine is filled with them so Putin is doing Gods work

[RainMaker]

The number of people who think that aren't even a majority of Trump supporters. One poll by Pew a couple years ago found that 17% of Americans and 37% of Republicans found Trump to be the best President of the last 40 years. In other words, the majority of people who support Trump don't think that. On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

I'm pretty sure I know how they think and what they care about. They've been screaming about it for years. There isn't some big mystery here where we need to "put ourselves in their shoes".

[Kodos]

What about Antifa?!

[SirFozzie]

Sarah Palin actually was RIGHT: Well, about one thing (the definition of a cult). not that Trump Supporters aren't actually, you know... a cult.

https://i.redd.it/yrzunnfc876b1.jpg

edit: Just in case the graphic from reddit doesn't show: "“The definition of a cult,” Palin told the rightwing network Newsmax, “is a group of people who are excessively supporting one another and a cause. [It’s] all about conformity and compliance and intolerance of anyone who doesn’t agree with what their mission is.”"

I mean, there's one party who have a pretty big tent from leftwing to moderate (to almost right wing with Manchin), and the other who is like "MAGA OR DIE!"

[GrantDawg]

There used to be a time I could easily put myself in the shoes of the other side. I would very often on here play the devil's advocate on things because I did find people could be pretty dismissive of the other side on issues. It has really become almost to do that now, because one side has just lost any grasp on reality. They are either ignoring the very real danger of the loss of democracy and important basic human rights because they want to pay less taxes, or they have completely lost their minds and believe a grand deep state conspiracy has stolen elections and are coming after them.
No, I just can't understand how people I have known my whole life as loving caring people have become racist, xenophobic gun worshipping nut jobs. Family, friends, business associates, people that were once kind earnest religious people. I can't put their shoes on, because they are no longer wearing them.

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[PilotMan]

Can you imagine the work and coordination white house staff had to pull off to keep his presidency from going off the rails more than it did?


You should read "Trump and His Generals" by Peter Bergen


Basically, the group spent a lot of time behind his back trying to keep him from doing stupid shit that was illegal and against the interests of the country. Also, they did not like him at all, but they felt obligated because of their responsibility to the country.



Probably have to thank John Kelly for most of it.

[Brian Swartz]

I often forget how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us who exist a few planes below you.

I don't think I'm either one of those things. I intentionally worded my post with 'we', not 'you'.

Not this shit again.

Which shit is that, exactly? I don't want to have a hot take without understanding your meaning.

I'm pretty sure I know how they think and what they care about. They've been screaming about it for years. There isn't some big mystery here where we need to "put ourselves in their shoes".

I regularly see you assigning motives to various groups, some of which are merely questionable and others of which are highly dubious in accuracy, so I'm confident that you probably don't know as much in this area as you claim.

[albionmoonlight]

Just a moment... (https://www.mediaite.com/trump/trump-reportedly-left-restaurant-without-paying-any-bills-after-telling-his-supporters-food-for-everyone/)

DeSantis et al. are only pretenders to the throne. There is only one Trump. He just does this stuff so effortlessly. Other politicians have to think to be this… Trumpy.

[flere-imsaho]

Wife and I at dinner tonight were discussing this. She isn't a big political person but is wicked smart. She asked about him being a flight risk. How can he not be, dude has his own plane and unlimited resource.

If you believe, as I do, that Trump's "wealth" is actually a rotating shell game of leverage, shell companies, and banks who can't afford to let him default, then the act of fleeing the country and any subsequent freezing of or investigation into the his accounts very quickly brings down the house of cards, leaving him very much at the mercy of others' leniency. Likely a position that Trump feels beneath him.

[flere-imsaho]

The legal argument is that it is the Presidential Records Act. So it is an Act that lets the President keep all the Records. It really is that dumb of an argument.

Trump probably figures that he put 3 people on SCOTUS, so when it comes to that, they'll say he can do whatever he wants.

[Edward64]

Y'all realize that, if not elected, he'll get a Presidential pardon.

Probably before he has to serve any time if found guilty & sentenced.

[MJ4H]

Y'all realize that, if not elected, he'll get a Presidential pardon.

Probably before he has to serve any time if found guilty & sentenced.

I doubt it.

[BYU 14]

I doubt it.

I hope not, but I don't put anything past some in the GOP. I think DeSantis, should he win would not pardon him because he will be holding a grudge from Trumpys nicknames for him.

And with Trump out of the picture, does anyone have a shot to beat DeSantis?

[flere-imsaho]

Y'all realize that, if not elected, he'll get a Presidential pardon.

You mean not elected because another GOP candidate won the GE. Which, while true, is currently the 3rd most likely option, after either Trump or Biden winning.

[SirFozzie]

Honestly, I can see Biden offering Trump a pardon in an attempt (misguided) to heal the wounds. But it won't happen, because Trump will be claiming that the Trilateral Comission turned the frogs gay and that somehow that combined with triglycerides in the peanut butter and Mars in conjunction with Venus to steal the election, while his supporters burn everything down.

[PilotMan]

Honestly, I can see Biden offering Trump a pardon in an attempt (misguided) to heal the wounds. But it won't happen, because Trump will be claiming that the Trilateral Comission turned the frogs gay and that somehow that combined with triglycerides in the peanut butter and Mars in conjunction with Venus to steal the election, while his supporters burn everything down.


And all of that is 100% true, even right this very second.

[Edward64]

You mean not elected because another GOP candidate won the GE. Which, while true, is currently the 3rd most likely option, after either Trump or Biden winning.

I am assuming the trial-guilty verdict-sentencing-appeal occurs after the election. If it occurs before and/or Trump wins the election, then it'll be crazy.

I can easily see Biden (or non-Trump president) giving Trump a pardon ala Gerald Ford to "move the country forward". Biden was in the Senate when that happened, he is a compromiser and old school.

[Ghost Econ]

That would be even worse. The GOP would spin it as, "See they only did this so he wouldn't win the election. Now that he lost, it really wasn't illegal and the deep state is covering it's tracks."

[Lathum]

I don’t see any way Biden would pardon trump.

[CrimsonFox]

lol trump went to a cuban restaurant after his arraignment and declared "Food for everyone". Then left without paying :D

[Ghost Econ]

Yeah, he's not a socialist, duh.

[BYU 14]

That would be even worse. The GOP would spin it as, "See they only did this so he wouldn't win the election. Now that he lost, it really wasn't illegal and the deep state is covering it's tracks."

You know the funny thing here is, I am sure that behind the scenes a lot of the GOP is on board with him being convicted, possibly even assisting in some covert manner.

But you are right. Once the anchor on their party is cut and begins it's descent into the depths of political oblivion, they will absolutely spin it to rile the base and leverage that anger. This is a win win for the GOP establishment and they know it.

[flere-imsaho]

I am assuming the trial-guilty verdict-sentencing-appeal occurs after the election.

Agreed, only because I can't see how the whole appeals process (assuming he's found guilty initially) completes in 18 months.

I can easily see Biden (or non-Trump president) giving Trump a pardon ala Gerald Ford to "move the country forward". Biden was in the Senate when that happened, he is a compromiser and old school.

I think enough Democrats know that such an act would lose them so much of their electorate that they'd be able to convince not to do something so damaging to the party.

[Noop]

I do not see Trump ever going to prison.

1. He either will win the election and pardon himself.
2. Get pardoned by the Republican winner.
3. Flee the country.

[SirFozzie]

or, due to age, passes away.

[Lathum]

I hope for option 4.

[PilotMan]

I like passes away from doing something stupid, Darwin award style.

[SirFozzie]

I dunno, it's like a still no win situation.

Heart failure? Obvious use of the Biden Crime Family's secret stash of assassins.

COVID: See above, this time using a real version of a fake disease.

Commits Suicide/Darwin Award candidate? A secret plot to fake his death so he can continue to expose all as Q without being public, or he was mind controlled into it.

[Lathum]

When he does meet his maker the conspiracies are gonna be lit.

[flere-imsaho]

In an ideal world I'd like to have had the leveraged house of cards that is his business "empire" somehow start to break apart at the seams due to one of these investigations, which is probably the worst thing that could happen to his ego. Before he died.

In a slightly less ideal world I'd love to see him taste some actual jeopardy of having to actually go to jail before he dies.

But at this point I'd be fine if he shuffled off his mortal coil, though after next primary season would be great.

[CrimsonFox]

When he does meet his maker the conspiracies are gonna be lit.

I don't think even Satan wants to hear his shit anymore.

[Thomkal]

Check out Twitter for the Bret Baier interview of Trump where he fact checks him on losing the election, hiring the "best people" and how the Saudi Crown Prince are good friends.

[whomario]

Check out Twitter for the Bret Baier interview of Trump where he fact checks him on losing the election, hiring the "best people" and how the Saudi Crown Prince are good friends.

I hear it was a triumph for a brilliant man :confused:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCg3GBakAMZ3GR?format=jpg&name=small

[Lathum]

I hear it was a triumph for a brilliant man :confused:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCg3GBakAMZ3GR?format=jpg&name=small

This sums up MAGA in a nutshell.. The idiot is literally on tape admitting crimes and they are still like, ROAR OWN THE LIBS!!!!

God I hope he testifies.

[GrantDawg]

Trial date set for August 14th, though I'm sure there will be delays filed by Trump.
<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">FLASH: Judge Aileen Cannon signs court order listing August 14 trial date in USA v. Donald Trump <br><br>In Fort Pierce, Florida <a href="https://t.co/81PO0dHXH6">https://t.co/81PO0dHXH6</a></p>&mdash; Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MacFarlaneNews/status/1671133905263505408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

[Lathum]

I'm no attorney, and I am sure there will be delays, but that date signals to me the courts want this done one way or another by primary season.

[GrantDawg]

Unless the judge has a steel backbone (and I don't think this one does), it is going to be too easy to delay it. It will be a happy surprise if it gets down before spring of next year, but that might delay it enough for a "wait till the election" decision comes down.

[SirFozzie]

That's going to move. It's just trial has to be set within a certain amount of days of indictment, although it can (and will move) for a variety of things, pre-trial motions, etcetera.

[albionmoonlight]

Not to disappoint the people who want this over with quickly, but the court Hass to set date within the speedy trial clock window. In most cases, that date ends up being moved back based on pretrial motions, etc. Here, where you have a defendant who wants to delay and legitimate novel complex issues, it is going to be pushed way way beyond this August.

[CrimsonFox]

Does FOX News not like trump anymore? vice versa? I've lost track

[SirFozzie]

Fox has had to play it close to the vest, because they just paid something like six hundred million to Dominion, and still have a pending lawsuit from Smartmatic.

So Fox finds it harder to go megaMAGA (they just fired an ex-Tucker producer who tried the chyron "Wanna be dictator has political opponent arrested" during Trump arraignment, and have had to push back on "the election was stolen" stuff

[CrimsonFox]

they fired someone for that? Awesome! haha

[CrimsonFox]

it's amazing that I get most of my news from this site haha. And I love that fact

[SirFozzie]

Fox News fires producer who called Biden a dictator | Fortune (https://fortune.com/2023/06/16/fox-news-fires-tucker-carlson-producer-biden-dictator-chyron/)

Now to be fair, they're also facing sexual harassment lawsuits, including one where the above named producer wanted to replace mother's breast feeding rooms with rooms where "Guys could tan their testicles"

[RainMaker]

Does FOX News not like trump anymore? vice versa? I've lost track

They sort of made a turn away from him after the midterms (along with other Murdoch owned properties). But I think DeSantis has bombed so hard the past few months that they seemed to be warming back up to him.

[GrantDawg]

They sort of made a turn away from him after the midterms (along with other Murdoch owned properties). But I think DeSantis has bombed so hard the past few months that they seemed to be warming back up to him.
They do seem to be caught in the in between. Murdoch is done with Trump, but there really doesn't seem to be an electable alternative.

[NobodyHere]

Fox News fires producer who called Biden a dictator | Fortune (https://fortune.com/2023/06/16/fox-news-fires-tucker-carlson-producer-biden-dictator-chyron/)

Now to be fair, they're also facing sexual harassment lawsuits, including one where the above named producer wanted to replace mother's breast feeding rooms with rooms where "Guys could tan their testicles"

Would any guy here go into a room where you could tan your testicles with your coworkers?

I wouldn't.

[CrimsonFox]

Would any guy here go into a room where you could tan your testicles with your coworkers?

I wouldn't.

Don't our testicles have ENOUGH problems???

[CrimsonFox]

They do seem to be caught in the in between. Murdoch is done with Trump, but there really doesn't seem to be an electable alternative.

bah! that's such crap. Any noncrazy nonmaga oldstyle republican would be perfect

[GrantDawg]

bah! that's such crap. Any noncrazy nonmaga oldstyle republican would be perfect
Never win the nomination. The GOP is never nominating a presidential candidate who is non-crazy, non-maga.

[NobodyHere]

Never win the nomination. The GOP is never nominating a presidential candidate who is non-crazy, non-maga.

Yeah, at least not until they get sick of "all the winning". Obviously I mean the GOP will stick by the MAGA candidates until they get handed a string of defeats.

One election you can cry and moan about. But if the Democrats win the 2024 presidential election and take back both houses of congress then the MAGAs are toast.

[SirFozzie]

Really, we're at three elections (2018 midterms, 2020 Presidential and Congress, 22 Midterms)

[GrantDawg]

Really, we're at three elections (2018 midterms, 2020 Presidential and Congress, 22 Midterms)
I don't think that faction is going away anytime soon, and it controls the party. I heard some pundits say it would be closer to 2032 before that might happen. The fact the almost all of the old guard, experienced leadership has been removed at every level but Washington and has been replaced with MAGA-headed nut jobs means they are the system now. Every GOP state convention only rewards the most wacky, and actually punishes anyone with the nerve not to be crazy.

[NobodyHere]

Even in 22 the party took control of the house.

[Atocep]

Even in 22 the party took control of the house.

And they massively underperformed. If NY had competent dem leadership they wouldn't have even managed that.

Trump is one of the biggest electoral losers we've seen. About 48-50% of voters just aren't going to vote for him 8n a general election, which makes it nearly impossible for him to win the presidency without electoral college weirdness. He's an anchor on the party and I don't think the GOP will feel the full weight of the damage he's done until more Gen Z start voting.

[MJ4H]

Even in 22 the party took control of the house.

Because the majority of contested seats were in red areas. And they still barely did it.

[RainMaker]

I regularly see you assigning motives to various groups, some of which are merely questionable and others of which are highly dubious in accuracy, so I'm confident that you probably don't know as much in this area as you claim.

I'm just taking people at their word. I'm not assigning any motives. They have been very clear on what they like and don't like.

It's people like you who give them cover by pretending what they openly say may not be what they believe. Just take people at their word.

[Atocep]

Saw a guy out interviewing Trump supporters about the indictment. Nothing shocking or even remotely surprising. None of those interviewed had read the indictment. And they said that the accusations they had seen (keeping classified documents in a bathroom, ect) were just too stupid to believe so it has to be a witch hunt as Trump has stated.

[Lathum]

Even in 22 the party took control of the house.

Barely and they couldn’t take the senate because of the horrific maga candidates. The midterms were a massive failure.

[Lathum]

Saw a guy out interviewing Trump supporters about the indictment. Nothing shocking or even remotely surprising. None of those interviewed had read the indictment. And they said that the accusations they had seen (keeping classified documents in a bathroom, ect) were just too stupid to believe so it has to be a witch hunt as Trump has stated.

The gop machine has done a great job framing this case just as him having some documents. Maga isn’t going to do their own research so they take that at face value so equating it to Biden or pence is perfectly logical to them.

[Thomkal]

Trump and his legal team got the first bit of discovery from the Special Counsel yesterday and judging by the even more crazy/frantic tweets today. they didn't like what they saw

[Brian Swartz]

'm just taking people at their word. I'm not assigning any motives. They have been very clear on what they like and don't like.

This is just plain false.

[GrantDawg]

Jasck Smith has filed a request to move the trail back to December 11th, to give time for the defense to give defense counsel time to get their security clearance and for both sides to deal with discovery. The discovery the DOJ has turned over so far has some 80+ witnesses and multiple videos and audio recording.

[Thomkal]

So somehow CNN has received the audio tape of the discussion Trump had with a staffer and others about General Milley's and the Pentagon's plan to attack Iran:


Exclusive: CNN obtains the tape of Trump's 2021 conversation about classified documents | CNN Politics (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/politics/trump-classified-documents-audio/index.html)

[albionmoonlight]

Not the main point I know, but a fascinating peek inside the echo chamber. They really can't go more than 30 seconds or so without talking about Hillary can they?

[Thomkal]

Nope they really hate her

[GrantDawg]

What is also stupid? Having US invasion of Iran plans made by the military doesn't prove Milley was pushing to invade Iran. The military has and regularly updates plans like that, and if Trump had been pushing for an invasion, of course they would have given the Comander and Chief the plans.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[CrimsonFox]

bring some cokes in please...
trump needs his coke

[Thomkal]

bring some cokes in please...
trump needs his coke


I don't think he has a waiter in prison :)

[Lathum]

This is the equivalent of Trump saying he could shoot someone on 5th ave. He is literally on tape committing a crime. He should be held pending trial, not jet setting around to rallies. Yet the entire GOP is complicit in their silence. He won't see one second in prison.

[RainMaker]

This is the equivalent of Trump saying he could shoot someone on 5th ave. He is literally on tape committing a crime. He should be held pending trial, not jet setting around to rallies. Yet the entire GOP is complicit in their silence. He won't see one second in prison.


Worth noting that multiple people, including recently Jack Teixeira and Reality Winner, were denied bail. Their crimes pale in comparison.

[CrimsonFox]

I don't think he has a waiter in prison :)

i thought that said walter at first

lol still works

[RainMaker]

You just need one juror or a friendly judge (which he got). But damn, this is about as open and shut a case as you'll ever get. Curious who leaked the audio.

[CrimsonFox]

You just need one juror or a friendly judge (which he got). But damn, this is about as open and shut a case as you'll ever get. Curious who leaked the audio.

is that different than the transcript we saw before? Because it's almost the same text

[RainMaker]

is that different than the transcript we saw before? Because it's almost the same text

Seems the same. Guess more jarring to hear the audio.

[Thomkal]

You just need one juror or a friendly judge (which he got). But damn, this is about as open and shut a case as you'll ever get. Curious who leaked the audio.


Have to think its Trump, trying to get the most damning part of the case against him disallowed.

[albionmoonlight]

Curious who leaked the audio.

I'd assume someone on the Trump team. The tighter this ship is run, the worse for him. He thrives in politics and chaos. The more "OMG did you see this??!!??" that's out there, the better for him. The bigger a circus, the more he's in his element and the DOJ is out of its element.

This is where Trump's relationship with the media will help him. They both want the same thing--a circus.

As far as the DOJ is concerned, if nothing newsworthy happened outside of filings and testimony, they'd be thrilled. But that will NOT be how it goes.

[GrantDawg]

It also makes sense in trying to poison the jury pool. I do wonder how in the world they are going to find an impartial jury.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

The new MAGA talking point is claiming it can't be proven that the document is real and he is just waving around a blank piece of paper.

I laugh when talking heads discuss when the AHAH moment will be for MAGAs. There will never be on ever. The damage he has caused will literally last decades.

[Atocep]

The new MAGA talking point is claiming it can't be proven that the document is real and he is just waving around a blank piece of paper.

I laugh when talking heads discuss when the AHAH moment will be for MAGAs. There will never be on ever. The damage he has caused will literally last decades.

I figured that would be the defense when I initially read about the recording and its contents. It's clear listening to it though that he has the document.

With that said, he still broke the law by describing it even if he didn't have the document.

[PilotMan]

MAGA are basically using the same argument flat earthers do, which means, unless you can show it to my face, in real time, to prove to me that it's true, then you can't prove it's true.

[Brian Swartz]

Trump doesn't do things wrong. He said so himself.

[Atocep]

Looks like Rudy is trying to strike a deal and get ahead of potential J6 charges. He voluntarily met with Jack Smith's team.

[Thomkal]

Trump's lawyers officially ask the judge to delay the documents trial past the 2024 election.

[Thomkal]

Looks like Trump has received a "target letter" from Special Counsel Jack Smith about Jan 6:


https://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrote/status/1681295174989926403

[albionmoonlight]

(again, it was Sunday night!)

Trump's mind is just blown that someone would work over the weekend.

[Thomkal]

Well you can't play golf then, so you gotta do something I guess...

[PilotMan]

I wonder if Smith has chosen which parts of the investigation will be tried based on difficulty of prosecution. Like file the docs case in FL, knowing that the facts in the case are pretty cut and dried and it's a simpler process. But J6 in DC or wherever else seems to be a better bet.

[CrimsonFox]

I really think it is false hope putting 2023 in the title

[Thomkal]

I really think it is false hope putting 2023 in the title


We can always start a new thread in 2024! Or maybe I can just add a + after 2023. :)

[Thomkal]

So I am very curious to hear about other people who got target letters too...

[CrimsonFox]

So I am very curious to hear about other people who got target letters too...

I get one every december advertising 40% off TVs

[albionmoonlight]

So I am very curious to hear about other people who got target letters too...

One of the main points of a target letter is to protect the target--they are kept secret because if the issue can be resolved short of formal charges, then no one even knows you were a suspect.

(Also, it does not matter for targets with hired lawyers (like Trump), but a target letter is serious enough that if you are indigent you can get a public defender appointed when you get one. So it is a way to allow formal negotiations to begin prior to charges being brought).

Trump--for Trumpy reasons--shouts from the rooftops when he gets one. But most people don't want the world to know that they are the target of serious criminal investigations.

[CrimsonFox]

It was great that so many lawyers turned him down when asked to represent him in the documents case. That needs to happen more. All lawyers need to avoid him. And the ones that keep filinng these awful motions for him need to be disbarred. THe judges need to start penalizing some of these motions.

[GrantDawg]

I wonder if Smith has chosen which parts of the investigation will be tried based on difficulty of prosecution. Like file the docs case in FL, knowing that the facts in the case are pretty cut and dried and it's a simpler process. But J6 in DC or wherever else seems to be a better bet.
I think it is just straight jurisdiction of the crime on both. They filed the documents case in Florida because if they had done it DC Trump's lawyers was ready to file to move the case to Florida. It would have been a delay, and most likely granted. J6 happened in DC, and the crimes happened there. Trump is definitely going to try for a change in venue, but he will most likely fail. Same in Georgia, he will try to move it out of Fulton County but most likely will fail there as well.

[Thomkal]

Michigan AG charges 16 in the fake electors scheme in that state:


https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1681397549167419397

[Galaril]

Michigan AG charges 16 in the fake electors scheme in that state:


https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1681397549167419397

They won't get close to it but a 14 year prison term is the penalty for these felonies in Michigan. That might make a few of hem give up the Trumpster or his accomplices at least.

[bronconick]

They're all so damn old they'll be dead in half that.

[Thomkal]

They won't get close to it but a 14 year prison term is the penalty for these felonies in Michigan. That might make a few of hem give up the Trumpster or his accomplices at least.


Yeah I think they will get a couple to flip

[Atocep]

So I am very curious to hear about other people who got target letters too...

One person that didn't receive a letter, after voluntarily meeting with Jack Smith, was Rudy Giuliani.

[CrimsonFox]

They won't get close to it but a 14 year prison term is the penalty for these felonies in Michigan. That might make a few of hem give up the Trumpster or his accomplices at least.

that never happens. trumpers are severely brain damaged

[Atocep]

Judge Cannon seems to know she has a spotlight on her and likely doesn't want the embarrassment of being removed from the case. It looks like she is going to rule against delaying the trial.

[GrantDawg]

I'm holding judgement till we actually see what her opinion is. She did just rule against the DOJ request for a protective order on the secret documents because the attorneys haven't conferred. The problem with that is Trump lawyers are refusing to confer when requested. So she is allowing Trump to use delay tactics.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[albionmoonlight]

There, of course, can be additional delays. But this seems like a pretty reasonable order at this point:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653.83.0.pdf

[albionmoonlight]

Indefinite delay was always a crazy ask. But a December trial date in a case of this nature was also pretty unreasonable.

[Galaril]

There, of course, can be additional delays. But this seems like a pretty reasonable order at this point:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653.83.0.pdf

So with a case number of this magnitude I wonder if the trial would even conclude with a verdict in time for the election? It seems like Trump will run anyways unless of course he gets a fed conviction which i thought I heard makes a person ineligible for POTUS.