Israeli-Hamas & Iran war [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

RainMaker

10-12-2023, 09:01 PM

It's a complex topic but brief summary. Palestinians are essentially broken off into 2 areas.

West Bank - An Israeli military controlled police state since the 60's. Think North Korea but the government has more resources at their disposal. There are different enclaves within it and Israel routinely sets up illegal settlements by force in the area. This area is run by Fatah, the more moderate party. They hate Hamas and would be most willing to work on diplomatic solutions.

Gaza - You've heard the phrase open air prison and that's probably the best way to describe it. It's a 25 mile strip where 2.3 million people live that cannot leave. All essentials (electricity, food, supplies) are at the whim of the Israeli government as they have a blockade. There is not clean drinking water for most. Very few schools or medical services. It's about as brutal place as you can imagine. Gets bombed regularly and is run mostly by an extremist group called Hamas.

That leads us to now. The current Israeli regime is very far-right and does not support a 2-state solution. So they made the decision to form a wedge between Fatah and Hamas. They've propped up Hamas for years which has allowed them to amass some weapons. The theory is that if your main enemy is the extremist group, there won't be pressure for a 2-state solution. This plan has backfired spectacularly.

Now it's important to mention that this attack is unprecedented. Hamas has had its attacks but they rarely advance into Israeli territory and rarely lead to this kind of death toll. The fact they were able to overrun so many military outposts and take so many hostages has never happened before.

So that's kind of where we're at. It's unchartered territory. Israel had mostly been fine with a few minor terrorist attacks each year if it meant they could keep their ethnostate and continue to encroach on lands. But the death toll from this is so staggering, that likely changes everything. Their focus will likely move from the West Bank to Gaza for now.

That leads us to these questions that no one has an answer to:

1) Does Netanyahu survive this? Public polls blame him for the failure and his strategy backfired. But he's also made strides in weakening the democratic process in the country so he can be a sort of dictator. Will public pressure force him out or does he dig in?

2) What happens with Gaza? It seems you can't just imprison millions on a small strip of land without some repercussions to citizens elsewhere.

3) Does the conflict expand? Hezbollah could get involved from Lebanon, although I think they'd like to avoid it. Will Iran be dragged into this to cover for the failures of the Israeli intelligence? Do other arab countries gain confidence now that Israel's intelligence and defense has not been as great as people assumed (similar to what we've seen with Russia).

CrimsonFox

10-12-2023, 11:05 PM

RainMaker

10-13-2023, 12:29 AM

They can't leave because Gaza is surrounded by a huge heavily fortified wall. Those that come close to it get shot. One of the creepiest parts is that most of Gaza has never actually seen an Israeli in person in their life.

The land is mostly worthless. It's been bombed for decades and the Israelis gave up on it almost 20 years ago. It's only important strategically for Israel's desire to be a Jewish ethnostate (something Netanyahu has talked openly about). This stretch of land can act as a prison to keep undesirables out. And obviously, residents of Gaza don't want to be imprisoned and want freedom to leave, have better living conditions, and return to their homes.

The land that Israel actually wants is the West Bank. They've been slowly annexing portions and at some point, a big clash will occur. That's been where their focus has been which is why this caught the country so off guard.

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 01:28 AM

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 01:30 AM

I keep seeing news clips and notes of so and so country or so and so organization "standing with palestine". Can you separate Palestine from Hamas?
Are there civilian palestines?

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 01:33 AM

I know nothing about the middle east because I spent all my history classes memorizing ridiculous civil war generals

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 02:05 AM

RainMaker

10-13-2023, 03:20 AM

Okay I gotta ask...if this is a prison that no one can leave, then why are were there so many americans and other nationalities there?

How is anyone allowed in if no one is allowed to leave?

IS it the hotel California? is that it?

Americans and other nationalities are not traveling to Gaza. It is nearly impossible to gain entry.

miami_fan

10-13-2023, 05:25 AM

I am not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this. Since we had discussed China giving money to Iran and this is talking about Iran funding Hamas, there is a connection.

'They're opportunistic and adaptive': How Hamas is using cryptocurrency to raise funds | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/us/hamas-funding-crypto-invs/index.html)

I'm old and don't know much about crypto other than having $53.16 worth of Bitcoin in Cash app because my son's friend's uncle want to give him Bitcoin for helping them out. I do know that one of the appeals of crypto was being able to secretly passing money around and hide from government eyes. We had to know that we were creating a easier way for the terrorists and their supporters to hide how they are funded from the people we want to stop them right?

molson

10-13-2023, 05:57 AM

But why? What is the conflict over this strip of land? Why can't the people just leave? Is it about the people or the land? DOes the land hold some sort of religious significance that they both want? Or is it a racial thing?

I think if you read the Wikipedia articles for Gaza and the West Bank, and how they came to be under Israeli control, you'll know more than most people about it. And the back and forth editing over the years created a fairly-factual depiction of events and the current state of things.

Edward64

10-13-2023, 06:20 AM

But why? What is the conflict over this strip of land? Why can't the people just leave? Is it about the people or the land? Does the land hold some sort of religious significance that they both want? Or is it a racial thing?

It's all of the above. But also includes fair amounts of poor judgement by leadership; third parties doing war/conflict by proxy; making themselves unwelcome (see Jordanian Civil War); land being part of their ancestry and not just religious; ME countries not wanting to take in Palestinians and the financial/social impact etc.

Okay I gotta ask...if this is a prison that no one can leave, then why are were there so many americans and other nationalities there?

How is anyone allowed in if no one is allowed to leave?

IS it the hotel California? is that it?

See below wsj link. Paywall so can't provide any details beyond the search results. My guess is they are dual citizens or aid workers, and was able to travel there. I'd guess there are a bunch of other nationalities there for same reason.

U.S. Estimates Up to 600 Americans in Gaza (https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/u-s-estimates-up-to-600-americans-in-gaza-XzlzyGWQCFHThTD8sqge)
An estimated 500 to 600 U.S. citizens live in the Gaza Strip, and some are looking for safe passage out, including over the border into Egypt, a senior administration official said.

Sure people are allowed to leave Gaza pre-war. It's not Hotel California. But it is maybe a Motel 6 as it's very difficult, especially for those without resources. See below. From other articles, you generally have to get visas and that's difficult as you may have to travel to Israel or into Egypt (note below that Egypt also plays a role here). My guess is the more money you have the easier it is.

Gaza: Israelâ€™s â€˜Open-Air Prisonâ€™ at 15 | Human Rights Watch (https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15)
Israel’s closure policy blocks most Gaza residents from going to the West Bank, preventing professionals, artists, athletes, students, and others from pursuing opportunities within Palestine and from traveling abroad via Israel, restricting their rights to work and an education. Restrictive Egyptian policies at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, including unnecessary delays and mistreatment of travelers, have exacerbated the closure’s harm to human rights.

“Israel, with Egypt’s help, has turned Gaza into an open-air prison,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. “As many people around the world are once again traveling two years after the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, Gaza’s more than two million Palestinians remain under what amounts to a 15-year-old lockdown.”

Did trump make it?

Nope but my guess is he got inspiration from it (or by watching "World War Z")

I keep seeing news clips and notes of so and so country or so and so organization "standing with palestine". Can you separate Palestine from Hamas?
Are there civilian palestines?

I view Palestine as West Bank (controlled by Fatah) and Gaza Strip (controlled by the more extremist Hamas). So yeah, you can separate Palestinians from Hamas. Unfortunately, I do believe 99% of Palestinians have a hatred for Israelis but in differing degrees, scale & context. It's understandable that even Palestinians, who do not support Hamas, still have deep resentment against Israel.

Edward64

10-13-2023, 06:54 AM

Looked up the Palestinian diaspora ...

The LATAM countries stuck out. Have to read more on why and how they've got so many Palestinians.

Palestinian diaspora - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora)
It is estimated that more than 6 million Palestinians live in a global diaspora.[14]

The countries outside the Palestinian territories with significant Palestinian populations are:

Jordan 3,240,000
Israel 1,650,000
Syria 630,000
Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
United States 255,000 (the largest concentrations in Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles; History of Palestinians in Los Angeles).
Honduras 250,000
Guatemala est. 200,000
Mexico 120,000
Qatar 100,000
Germany 80,000
Kuwait 80,000
El Salvador 70,000

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 07:15 AM

eeeeeek Time Square is full of protesters on both sides yuk.

HEre's a fun encounter

A suspect wearing traditional Jewish attire drove up to him on a scooter, struck him with the vehicle and took the flag out of his hands, hitting him over the head multiple times with it, according to authorities.

The suspect fled on his scooter and is being sought, police say.

Edward64

10-13-2023, 07:18 AM

Good to see freedom of speech at work.

Names and faces of Harvard students linked to an anti-Israel statement were plastered on mobile billboards and online sites | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/business/harvard-doxxing-truck-israel-hamas-statement/index.html)
... the Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups, a coalition of Harvard student groups, earlier this week released a statement that held “the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence”
:
Some students and their groups have since distanced themselves or withdrawn their endorsements from the statement amid an intense backlash inside and outside of Harvard. Several said they did not read the statement before they signed it.
And from both (other) sides ...

A conservative nonprofit said it organized the truck featuring the virtual billboards with students’ names and images under a banner that reads: “Harvard’s Leading Antisemites.” It also published names online. CNN has not independently verified that the named students were associated with the letter.

The group’s president said in a post on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, that the group “is removing the names of students from groups that withdrew but are also adding new names every hour.”

My wife and I were discussing Harvard and that now unemployed NYU grad. Freedom of speech but not freedom of speech without repercussions. She mentioned what our County came out with below. Wondering why our County thought it was important to come out with their irrelevant opinion.

https://www.forsythco.com/News/forsyth-county-board-of-commissioners-statement-regarding-terror-attacks-in-israel
The Forsyth County Board of Commissioners stands in solidarity with the people of Israel who are enduring unfathomable death, injury, trauma and grief following the horrific terror attacks over the past few days. Our thoughts, hearts and prayers are with the victims and families of those lost as well as the countless others in Israel and around the world that are seeking refuge, safety and peace during such tribulation.

flere-imsaho

10-13-2023, 07:23 AM

Gaza - You've heard the phrase open air prison and that's probably the best way to describe it. It's a 25 mile strip where 2.3 million people live that cannot leave.

Just to help make a comparison, Gaza is ~139 square miles and Chicago is ~237 square miles. Metro Chicago population is ~9.5M. Of course, Gaza doesn't have anything near the kind of modern housing stock that a city like Chicago has.

The closest size comparison to a major U.S. city is Philadelphia, which is ~134 square miles, with a metro population of 1.6M.

cuervo72

10-13-2023, 07:35 AM

eeeeeek Time Square is full of protesters on both sides yuk.

HEre's a fun encounter

Probably not very enlightened of me that my first instinct is to think "Look, if you want to fight about this -- fine. Just don't do it here. Do it over there."

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 07:46 AM

Probably not very enlightened of me that my first instinct is to think "Look, if you want to fight about this -- fine. Just don't do it here. Do it over there."

lol.....rite? I'm tryin to go see Murder on the Orient Express and Wicked...

:D

miked

10-13-2023, 09:15 AM

cuervo72

10-13-2023, 09:47 AM

When Israel was created in 1948 (you know, where the Jews already lived)

Mmm, I'm not quite sure...

HerRealName

10-13-2023, 10:09 AM

You might want to google "Al Nakba" because you're repeating the Florida public school version of history here.

RainMaker

10-13-2023, 10:10 AM

I'm still confused, is the best option to just open the border and tell everyone in Gaza that they can now live in Israel, a state that they do not want to exist? Everyone in the middle east has had an opportunity to help the people in Gaza and all have chosen to decline, especially Egypt (and partly Jordan). When Israel was created in 1948 (you know, where the Jews already lived), there were a lot of chances for peace that all arab states rejected. They would rather their people die than grant Jews a homeland.

So while you repeatedly bash the "ethnostate" of Israel (your anti-semitic comments notwithstanding), there is more than enough blame to go around in that area. Let's not forget Iran that also wants to wage war with Israel but prefers to arm Gaza children instead. There is a 2-state solution, but the other party (Hamas) does not want that. They want Jews wiped from the planet and there is nothing that the West or Israel can offer them. I mean, if Al Qaeda took over Canada and Mexico, outnumbered us, and wanted to wipe us from the planet, would we grant them open borders?

A more apt comparison would be Al-Qaeda (guessing you just found the worst group of brown people you could think of?) taking over 80% of America. Americans get stuffed into the remaining 20% and stripped of their rights, movement heavily restricted, resources rationed, and bombed/shot regularly.

Then Al-Qaeda says "you can keep 15%" under a bunch of conditions like giving giving up a military, regular inspections, not being able to return to your home, etc.

I have a feeling that the country that had violent outbursts over having to wear a mask at Target would probably not find this suitable.

miked

10-13-2023, 10:27 AM

Mmm, I'm not quite sure...

Which part, the creation of the state or the fact that Jews had been fleeing to the area for decades before that?

Look, there is no great solution here and I hate settlements and do not support that part of the government. But I do support their right to exist and allowing free reign of Hamas in the region is counter to that. I do not think people in Gaza support a 2-state solution either, so I'm not sure what else there is to do there. Nobody seems to want to get involved other than say which side they stand with, leaving few solutions. If Hamas were disband and Israel were to rebuild Gaza and allow it to be autonomous, would that be enough for folks? Probably not. What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 10:28 AM

But can like all of the people just be refugees and just get the hell out of the entire area/country etc and like go to europe and afirca and canada and us?

Can't there just be a solution to just....EVERYBODY LEAVE THAT AREA ?

There can't be anyone that actually wants to live there anymore

Edward64

10-13-2023, 11:00 AM

What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?

Pretty sure Jordan is going to say non-Jordanian Palestinians are bad guests and won't invite them back. Like that college roommate that needed a temporary place to crash but ended up ordering a subscription to Playboy to your address.

Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود Aylūl al-ʾAswad), also known as the Jordanian Civil War,[9] was an armed conflict between Jordan, led by King Hussein, and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), led by chairman Yasser Arafat. The main phase of the fighting took place between 16 and 27 September 1970, though certain aspects of the conflict continued until 17 July 1971.

Oh, forget Lebanon also ...

Jordan allowed the fedayeen to relocate to Lebanon via Syria. Four years later, the fedayeen became involved in the Lebanese Civil War, which would continue until 1990.

CrimsonFox

10-13-2023, 11:05 AM

I really think it's a good idea just like....nobody help either side. Like DON'T GIVE ANYBODY ANY MORE WEAPONS.

thesloppy

10-13-2023, 11:10 AM

Can't there just be a solution to just....EVERYBODY LEAVE THAT AREA ?

There can't be anyone that actually wants to live there anymore

They are under sea, air and land blockade, from both Israel and Egypt, which control their entire border.

tl;dr: no

cuervo72

10-13-2023, 11:17 AM

Which part, the creation of the state or the fact that Jews had been fleeing to the area for decades before that?

Look, there is no great solution here and I hate settlements and do not support that part of the government. But I do support their right to exist and allowing free reign of Hamas in the region is counter to that. I do not think people in Gaza support a 2-state solution either, so I'm not sure what else there is to do there. Nobody seems to want to get involved other than say which side they stand with, leaving few solutions. If Hamas were disband and Israel were to rebuild Gaza and allow it to be autonomous, would that be enough for folks? Probably not. What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?

Eh, the phrasing made it sound like

a) most Jews lived there (and had for ages)
b) Jews were the area's primary occupants

Yes, they had been fleeing there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#/media/File:Survey_of_Palestine_Page_185.jpg) and yes there was a declaration, but (and I'll credit you as not meaning it that way) the line read like "Hey, what's the problem? These guys were obviously here already."

miami_fan

10-13-2023, 12:19 PM

My wife and I were discussing Harvard and that now unemployed NYU grad. Freedom of speech but not freedom of speech without repercussions. She mentioned what our County came out with below. Wondering why our County thought it was important to come out with their irrelevant opinion.

https://www.forsythco.com/News/forsyth-county-board-of-commissioners-statement-regarding-terror-attacks-in-israel

Just like everyone else, the county knows that they are better off stating their position and dealing with whatever comes from that as opposed to staying silent and having said position defined for you. Silence in this case seems to mean that not only do you not stand with Israel without qualification to use the phrase that Brian in the other thread. it could also be seen as you are actively supporting Hamas.

RainMaker

10-13-2023, 01:08 PM

More targeting of journalists.

Israeli shelling along Lebanon border kills 1 journalist, wounds 6 | AP News (https://apnews.com/article/israel-lebanon-shelling-border-journalist-killed-87fef20431c31b29ac56e51e14a22000?taid=65297159d10457000169233b&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter)

RainMaker

10-13-2023, 07:26 PM

Telling people to evacuate and then targeting them is some sinister shit.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEW: 70 killed after Israeli strikes hit three convoys of evacuees trying to leave northern Gaza. <a href="https://t.co/HOVXZxfIAJ">pic.twitter.com/HOVXZxfIAJ</a></p>— MSNBC (@MSNBC) <a href="https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1712911792106602608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 13, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Edward64

10-13-2023, 07:36 PM

Nice it's a solid majority of 65%. Could be higher but all things considered on the state of the union, not too shabby.

Access to this page has been denied (https://thehill.com/policy/international/4255413-most-americans-us-government-support-israel/)
The NPR-PBS News Hour-Marist poll found that nearly two in three Americans — or roughly 65 percent — say the government should publicly support Israel. About 23 percent said the U.S. should say or do nothing related to the conflict, and 8 percent say the U.S. should publicly criticize Israel.
Partisanship did not seem to play much of a role in the results, either, according to the poll. Around 77 percent of Republicans, 69 percent of Democrats and 54 percent of independents said they believe the U.S. should show public support for Israel amid the war.
This surprised me some. IMO Biden's response has been solid. Not sure what/how the 52% wanted Biden to respond ... Biden has publicly (and strongly) supported Israel per the 65% above.

Overall, 52 percent of respondents don’t approve of Biden’s response — 19 percent of them being Democrats and 80 percent being Republicans. Less than half of those surveyed said they do approve of how Biden is handling the war, including 77 percent of Democrats and 16 percent of Republicans.

The pollsters acknowledged that while only 16 percent of Republicans think Biden is doing a good job handling the war, only 6 percent of the GOP think he is doing a good job as president overall.

GrantDawg

10-13-2023, 07:43 PM

Biden's popularity is so low that if he personally cured cancer, 52% would be unhappy about it.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Edward64

10-13-2023, 08:02 PM

Nice, balanced position & requests by the Progressives. Nice contrast to the DSA extremists.

â€˜We are deeply concernedâ€™ â€“ Progressive lawmakers make plea to Biden ahead of Israelâ€™s Gaza campaign - POLITICO (https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/13/progressive-lawmakers-letter-biden-israel-00121463)
In the letter, which was first obtained by POLITICO, CPC Chair Rep. Pramila Jayapal and others make five primary requests of the president.
1) The lawmakers said Biden should help reestablish the delivery of food, water and electricity to Gaza, 2) discourage hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims in the U.S., and 3) guarantee any supplemental funding requests made of Congress include humanitarian aid for Palestinians and Israelis. In addition, they 4) ask Biden to make the case that Israel follows international law and instruct 5) the U.S. to work with partners in the region to set up a humanitarian corridor allowing Palestinian civilians to leave Gaza.
IMO reasonable request, talking "both sides" ...

The lawmakers also condemn the Hamas’ attack and offer their agreement with Biden that Israel has the right to defend itself. But, they said, that response must be cognizant of Palestinian civilians in Gaza “who themselves are victims of Hamas.”

In order to prevent hate crimes against Jewish and Muslim Americans, the lawmakers urged Biden to communicate “to the American people that Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.”
The DSA ...

Democratic Socialists of America facing an internal reckoning on Israel - POLITICO (https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/11/dsa-rally-aoc-israel-00121060)
Rep. Jamaal Bowman let his membership lapse. Colleague Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ripped the New York chapter over a pro-Palestinian rally Sunday. And others on the left are struggling to reconcile their views with the group — even disavowing it amid criticism from across the political spectrum.
And the debate over how to respond to the declared war between Israel and Hamas has caused the beginnings of a major rift within the DSA, a group that’s viewed the Jewish state as an oppressor of Palestinians and has tried to link the issue to racial justice causes in the United States.

Sounds a little like the Harvard student groups ...

In New York, several far-left Democrats boosted to elected office by the DSA condemned a pro-Palestinian rally in Manhattan that the New York City DSA had promoted but later distanced itself from. Attendees had chanted “resistance is justified when people are occupied” and one was shown displaying a swastika in a widely circulated photo.

A day later, the NYC-DSA toned down its rhetoric, apologizing in a statement.

Edward64

10-14-2023, 09:40 AM

Still enjoying Bill Maher. Good discussion on Israeli-Hamas war. He's got a former Bernie guy and an Israeli guy going back and forth on stuff.

<iframe width="893" height="502" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HrLjRdw1cYs" title="Israel's 9/11 | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>
(<iframe width="893" height="502" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HrLjRdw1cYs" title="Israel's 9/11 | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>)

<iframe width="893" height="502" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/s-52iGL_KmQ" title="Overtime: James Kirchick & Matt Duss | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Some comic relief in there, didn't know this was a thing (see first video at 6:35). Also on the Iranian $6B (see second video at 6:25) and currently my favorite Republican Nikki Haley (see second video at 9:20)

CrimsonFox

10-14-2023, 10:15 AM

jesus israel is using white phosphorus in areas with civilians.

bad mojo

still stand with them?

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon | Human Rights Watch (https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon)

GrantDawg

10-14-2023, 10:21 AM

Edward64

10-14-2023, 10:25 AM

If they intentionally used it against civilians, absolutely bad. But I'll wait for more reports to confirm either way.

Access Denied (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-white-phosphorus-weapons-gaza-human-rights-group-rcna120272)
Human Rights Watch said that videos recorded in Lebanon and Gaza on Tuesday and Wednesday showed airdropped white phosphorus artillery rounds — an assessment that was vehemently denied by Israeli officials. Human Rights Watch said that its analysis was corroborated through two interviews with witnesses on the ground who described a distinctive garlic-like smell that is a signature of white phosphorus.

A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said:“The current accusation made against the IDF regarding the use of white phosphorus in Gaza is unequivocally false. The IDF has not deployed the use of such munitions.” A spokesperson for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not respond to a request for comment.

NBC News, which did not have reporters present when the strikes occurred in Gaza and Lebanon, has not been able to independently verify Human Rights Watch's claims.

miami_fan

10-14-2023, 01:13 PM

CrimsonFox

10-14-2023, 01:26 PM

Many things fascinate me about this war. How it is being reported (mainstream and non mainstream on both sides of the conflict) and how the public reacts to that reporting might be the most fascinating. I am not emotionally attached on either side of this issue but it is giving me a better understanding of what I may or may not sound like when I am emotionally attached to a side of an issue.

yeah i know, right? There have been people just JUPMING to a side immediately and demanding fealty to a side and I'm like still trying to put all the pieces together so that ANYTHING about it makes sense.

RainMaker

10-14-2023, 02:16 PM

Biden's popularity is so low that if he personally cured cancer, 52% would be unhappy about it.

He literally promised to cure it on the campaign trail.

Carman Bulldog

10-14-2023, 03:33 PM

yeah i know, right? There have been people just JUPMING to a side immediately and demanding fealty to a side and I'm like still trying to put all the pieces together so that ANYTHING about it makes sense.

Not only that, but how some are very quick to question every Israel action while forgetting (or giving a free pass on) many of America's responses as part of it's 20-year war on terror following 9/11.

CrimsonFox

10-14-2023, 04:08 PM

Flasch186

10-14-2023, 05:35 PM

I think the moderates feel stuck

They “know what Hamas did was bad” but they cannot allow the question of Israel existing and second classing them slide either.

They will, on Facebook, throw out the mandatory “All killing is bad” but that’s just a throw away to check the box.

They have to always keep the narrative of their treatment front and center and

Btw

My guess is every oppressed people do the same thing.

Humans

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RainMaker

10-14-2023, 05:49 PM

illinifan999

10-14-2023, 09:44 PM

Nova music festival: How a rave turned into a frenzied massacre (https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2023/10/middleeast/hamas-music-festival-attack-investigation-cmd-intl/)

Pretty in-depth look at when the Palestinians decided to conduct target practice on the music festival.

Edward64

10-14-2023, 10:34 PM

Question of the day: If HAMAS are Palestinians...but different from the Palestinians on the west bank ...like those Palestinians are the good ones and Hamas are just bad apples...then where are the palestinian statements condemning the attacks? I'm seeing the opposite...I'm seeing protests and such. I'm seeing Extreme nationism by...well both Palestine and Israel. But no condemnation of the act.

My take, take it FWIW. Generalizing the 3 groups in Palestine ...

1) In Gaza, there are extremist Hamas & "normal" Palestinians
2) In West Bank, there are less extremist Fatah & "normal" Palestinians
3) Hamas and Fatah hate each other. Hamas killed & ejected Fatah from Gaza around 2006-2007.
4) Fatah is moving on with governing the parts of West Bank they control, they are less confrontational with Israel. Hamas, arguably, would win a popular election over Fatah (I've seen 52%-57%). In other words, Fatah is relatively weak in the court of popular opinion.
5) Hamas, Fatah, and 90% of "normals" are antisemitic. Differing levels for sure but even for "normals", it's still pretty high. Not making a statement if this is right or wrong for the "normals", just saying it's pretty much a sad reality due to history & circumstances.

To answer your question specifically ...

The reason why there is little/no condemnation by the "normals" for the attacks is because they support it to a certain level. Not saying they support the supposed (beheading) of babies, but my guess is little problem with killing Israeli soldiers or adult settlers. Again, looking from "both sides", it is understandable "normal" Palestinians are PO'd at the Israelis.

The reason why Fatah does not condemn it is because they'll lose even more popular support (see #4 above). The best they can do is lukewarm support the attacks. (And if I was them, I'd give the Israelis as much intel on Hamas as I could)

illinifan999

10-15-2023, 01:25 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0upJacn86cA

On the ground reporting with Palestinian atrocities.

CrimsonFox

10-15-2023, 02:39 AM

Edward64

10-15-2023, 07:01 AM

I don't agree with his 2nd half analogy but he put it well saying (paraphrased) ... who is right or wrong depends on the point in time of who did what then (and the reaction), and therefore not useful to go back that far.

Edward64

10-15-2023, 07:08 AM

Hezbollah has been exchanging hostilities with Israel. Hope that doesn't flare up but can easily see a 2 front "war". Iran holds the strings there.

miami_fan

10-15-2023, 08:09 PM

Chicago-area landlord charged with hate crimes after fatally stabbing 6-year-old and wounding his mom because they were Muslim, authorities say | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/us/chicago-landlord-attack-muslim-boy-mother/index.html)

CrimsonFox

10-16-2023, 05:25 AM

Edward64

10-16-2023, 05:45 AM

I think you meant to share the cold open vs monologue?

Yeah, I saw that, good of him to share it.

CrimsonFox

10-16-2023, 06:24 AM

I think you meant to share the cold open vs monologue?

Yeah, I saw that, good of him to share it.

i don't know what you're talking about

CrimsonFox

10-16-2023, 06:44 AM

Video shows 'families killed amid their belongings' on evacuation route | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/14/gaza-city-evacuation-route-explosion-israel-hamas-idf-abdelaziz-pkg-intl-vpx.cnn)

Edward64

10-16-2023, 06:44 AM

Hah, datetime stamps never lie

RainMaker

10-16-2023, 02:50 PM

RainMaker

10-16-2023, 02:54 PM

Lead addled boomer obsessed with right wing talk.

Joseph Czuba fatally stabbed 6-year-old Palestinian boy after listening to radio and becoming worried about personal safety, prosecutors say - Chicago Sun-Times (https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2023/10/16/23919242/jospeh-czuba-plainfield-stabbing-palestinian-boy-wadea-al-fayoume-hate-crime?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-cst)

CrimsonFox

10-16-2023, 03:19 PM

Watch out for those legos

JonInMiddleGA

10-16-2023, 04:37 PM

Belgium-Sweden Euro qualifier suspended after shooting - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/38674467/belgium-sweden-euro-qualifier-abandoned-shooting)

Edward64

10-17-2023, 01:01 PM

Oh frak.

Lots of casualties in Gaza hospital strike

Ghost Econ

10-17-2023, 01:15 PM

Well, if you want to win the war of public opinion, that's one way to do it.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 01:30 PM

Currently up for debate if it was Israeli accidental/intentional or Hamas accidental.

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 01:35 PM

Currently up for debate if it was Israeli accidental/intentional or Hamas accidental.
Israel has to stop the bombing.

CrimsonFox

10-17-2023, 01:54 PM

Israel has to stop the bombing.

...but her emails...

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 01:57 PM

They should take this deal, but there is real questions if this is trust-worthy.
<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A sr hamas leader tells <a href="https://twitter.com/NBCNews?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NBCNews</a> the group is willing to release all civilian hostages, foreigners and Israelis, if the strikes on Gaza stop.</p>— Richard Engel (@RichardEngel) <a href="https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1714354638953046390?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 02:12 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: Al-Jazeera reports that the �� IDF spokesperson says they had warned regarding evacuating the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital as well as five other hospitals</p>— The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex) <a href="https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1714350133167735040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 02:57 PM

They are saying the death toll is most likely due to the bomb falling in the courtyard of the hospital. Many displaced people are sheltering there in a very tight spot.

Meanwhile, the West Bank is getting hot with protestors because of this bombing.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 02:58 PM

Yeah, things in the West Bank seem bad too.

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mass arrests in the West Bank and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. Lawyers and doctors are even having their licenses revoked and arrested over social media posts.</p>— Mariam Barghouti مريم البرغوثي (@MariamBarghouti) <a href="https://twitter.com/MariamBarghouti/status/1714284067024462158?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

10-17-2023, 03:01 PM

I’m going to give it time for the US analysts tell me what happened. There seems to be some good night video on what happened.

Abbas has cancelled meeting with Joe. IMO premature but understandable

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 03:04 PM

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 03:06 PM

IDf claiming they have proof it was a Hamas rocket because of course they do. Even if it was, it will take a neutral arbiter for anyone to believe it.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 03:10 PM

Toss in Islamic Jihad into the finger pointing

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 03:13 PM

There is video of it. It's not a misfire. Either was targeted directly or a generator on the hospital messed with the heat seaking tech.

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Worth noting that Israel posted another video claiming it was a rocket misfire but the timestamps were off by 30 minutes. So they deleted and reposted without the timestamps when people called them out on it.<iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.d37472b4a6622d0b1fff46ad904f6896.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.operationsports.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe><iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.d37472b4a6622d0b1fff46ad904f6896.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.operationsports.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 03:26 PM

There is video of it. It's not a misfire. Either was targeted directly or a generator on the hospital messed with the heat seaking tech.
The idea that this was a counter barrage on a missile launcher that went astride makes sense. The Ukrainian anti-air missile that hit Poland was much bigger than you would imagine one of those missiles would be. Hit an enclosed space where people are in the open and super crowded, that seems realistic.
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GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 03:30 PM

And the more I watch that, that second ground explosion had to hit something to cause a secondary explosion. Fuel tank?

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 03:33 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEWS <br><br>Jordanians have swarmed the Israeli embassy in Amman attempting to enter the compound in the aftermath of reports that hundreds have been killed in a hospital bombing in Gaza City. <br><br>There are additional reports of a fire. <a href="https://twitter.com/AFP?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AFP</a></p>— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) <a href="https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1714377953147285702?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 03:43 PM

With electricity cut off, they are running on generators. So, the area probably has a decent amount of fuel to keep a hospital running. Then again, Israel has some really powerful rockets that can do incredible damage.

Hospitals have been a prime target for Israel over the years. Hamas has nothing in its arsenal that could come close to leveling a hospital like that.

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GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 04:05 PM

From the shots closer to the ground the only thing you can tell is that it was definitely a rocket or missile. It comes in propelled at a high velocity. Not like a gravity bomb. The ground explosion seems to suggest a secondary explosion. Whether it is an Israeli or Hamas rocket, you usually don't see that level of fireball from a missile or rocket. That is like a fuel-burn.

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 04:27 PM

The best argument on the failed rocket counterclaim is if it had just launched a long-range large rocket laden with fuel could have caused that kind of fireball.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 05:06 PM

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 05:11 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Doctors from the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza hold a press conference among the bodies of those slaughtered in the Israeli strike. <br><br>The most surreal zoom out I have ever seen. <a href="https://t.co/faovWQvSDk">pic.twitter.com/faovWQvSDk</a></p>— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1714387558795260263?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

CrimsonFox

10-17-2023, 05:19 PM

Edward64

10-17-2023, 05:33 PM

Abbas has cancelled meeting with Joe. IMO premature but understandable

Jordan also says no thanks.

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 06:11 PM

I don't think it's a confusing case. Hamas has nothing powerful enough to do that kind of damage.

Actually they do. They use the BADR-3 rockets that they get from Iran. Note the warhead explodes in air and spreads 1.400 pieces of shrapnel. Looks like the damage that was done in this attack.
https://www.debka.com/irans-badr-3-missile-in-maiden-show-against-israel-in-palestinian-rocket-offensive/

Israel has said they are going to target the hospital, they warned people to leave, and they proceeded to brag about hitting the hospital after the strike. It was only after some backlash came did they hastily come up with a story about it being a Hamas rocket and post some easily debunked videos that they later had to delete.
Can you show me directly where they said to abandon this specific hospital and where they would attack this specific hospital? What I keep seeing linked is a WHO article that condemns the call from Israel to evacuate all hospitals in Northern Gaza ahead of the ground offensive. That is a part of asking all civilians to leave the area so they will not be caught in the cross-fire.

I'm not saying Israel didn't do this. I don't trust Israel's statements any more than I trust Palestine sources. They both have reasons to lie, exaggerate and play PR games with anything that happens. That is why you look beyond just what the PR are saying.
This is a really interesting post breaking down the videos available and what they believe happened. People say they have done a real good job breaking down attacks in Ukraine, but I have no idea their political allegences.
<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">GeoConfirmed ISR-PAL.<br><br>A missile launched by Palestinian Groups exploded mid-air and one of the pieces fell on the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital's yard.<br><br>31.504822, 34.46169<br><br>Before reacting READ our thread.<a href="https://t.co/qbpUGQk89o">https://t.co/qbpUGQk89o</a><br><br>1/X</p>— GeoConfirmed (@GeoConfirmed) <a href="https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

10-17-2023, 06:26 PM

I'm not saying Israel didn't do this. I don't trust Israel's statements any more than I trust Palestine sources. They both have reasons to lie, exaggerate and play PR games with anything that happens. That is why you look beyond just what the PR are saying.
Agree

This is a really interesting post breaking down the videos available and what they believe happened. People say they have done a real good job breaking down attacks in Ukraine, but I have no idea their political allegences.
I saw this video and watched it several times, cautious of confirmation bias with all the comments.

TBH even if a legit video, it's too dark for me to understand what is going on other than the "rocket" did not end its trajectory normally. It kinda "blew up, malfunctioned, got intercepted etc." and then "rocket, pieces" fell down.

I'd like to think the US carrier group is tracking all in/outbound rockets and can provide their POV as to what happened. I'll take the US analysis over Israeli or Hamas.

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 06:35 PM

I'd like to think the US carrier group is tracking all in/outbound rockets and can provide their POV as to what happened. I'll take the US analysis over Israeli or Hamas.
That part is what I have been wondering about as well. I would imagine part of what the US is doing is tracking everything in the air around Gaza and Southern Israel, and would have a trajectory on this.

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 06:58 PM

The IDF is going to release footage and intercepted conversation that is supposed to prove Islamic Jihad was behind the attack, so that is near definite proof that Israel did it.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 07:04 PM

The IDF is going to release footage and intercepted conversation that is supposed to prove Islamic Jihad was behind the attack, so that is near definite proof that Israel did it.

Hah. Not going to convince anyone with deep fake technologies nowadays.

I think reporters should do their jobs and take pictures of the rocket wreckage.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 07:25 PM

That part is what I have been wondering about as well. I would imagine part of what the US is doing is tracking everything in the air around Gaza and Southern Israel, and would have a trajectory on this.

The US is on it.

Zachary Cohen
@ZcohenCNN
News: Israel has provided the US with intelligence it has gathered related to the deadly Gaza hospital explosion, a Israeli official & another source familiar with the matter tell me &
@OrenCNN
.

The US is analyzing the Israeli intelligence, sources say.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 07:31 PM

I think reporters should do their jobs and take pictures of the rocket wreckage.

Foreign journalists are banned from entering Gaza by the Israelis and those who do report in Gaza are routinely executed by the Israeli military.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 07:33 PM

Foreign journalists are banned from entering Gaza by the Israelis and those who do report in Gaza are routinely executed by the Israeli military.

Doesn't have to be foreign. Just take the pictures of the missile/rocket wreckage, there has to be some right?

Carman Bulldog

10-17-2023, 07:58 PM

I don't think it's a confusing case. Hamas has nothing powerful enough to do that kind of damage. Israel has a history of targeting hospitals.

Israel has said they are going to target the hospital, they warned people to leave, and they proceeded to brag about hitting the hospital after the strike. It was only after some backlash came did they hastily come up with a story about it being a Hamas rocket and post some easily debunked videos that they later had to delete.

This isn't a tough one to crack. They did what they said they would do.

Conversely, one could argue that one minute before the hospital was hit, Hamas posted on its Telegram channel that they were launching their strongest rockets at Haifa; ultimately, no interceptions or impacts were ever detected.

Not a tough one to crack as you said. Hamas did what they said they would do.

Or better yet, let's let it play out and we'll see once we have more information. That doesn't seem to be your MO though.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 08:09 PM

Actually they do. They use the BADR-3 rockets that they get from Iran. Note the warhead explodes in air and spreads 1.400 pieces of shrapnel. Looks like the damage that was done in this attack.
https://www.debka.com/irans-badr-3-missile-in-maiden-show-against-israel-in-palestinian-rocket-offensive/

Can you show me directly where they said to abandon this specific hospital and where they would attack this specific hospital? What I keep seeing linked is a WHO article that condemns the call from Israel to evacuate all hospitals in Northern Gaza ahead of the ground offensive. That is a part of asking all civilians to leave the area so they will not be caught in the cross-fire.

I'm not saying Israel didn't do this. I don't trust Israel's statements any more than I trust Palestine sources. They both have reasons to lie, exaggerate and play PR games with anything that happens. That is why you look beyond just what the PR are saying.
This is a really interesting post breaking down the videos available and what they believe happened. People say they have done a real good job breaking down attacks in Ukraine, but I have no idea their political allegences.
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Here you go. They hit the hospital a couple of days ago and then told them to evacuate. The article is from the 15th.

Al Ahli Arab Hospital Hit by Israeli Rockets, Urgent Evacuation Ordered (https://avh.org/content/news-and-events/gaza-hospital-hit-by-israeli-rockets-urgent-evacuation-ordered.html)

But the best proof is that Israel admitted it. Netanyahu's advisor bragged about hitting the hospital and killing terrorists shortly after it happened. When news of mass casualties came out, he deleted that and changed his story.

So you have the Israeli government telling everyone they would hit the hospital. The hospital gets obliterated by what looks and sounds like a JDAM.Then Israel brags about it.

There is also zero chance Hamas had a BADR-3 with that kind of munitions just hanging out in Gaza. Israel would have obliterated it as soon as the conflict started (likely before). And if they did have it, why the fuck have they not used it? Why was it not part of their attack a week ago? If there are actually functioning BADR-3 rockets in Gaza, Israel is the most incompetent military that has ever existed.

The only sources for this not being from Israel is coming from the Israeli government who initially took credit for the attack and has a history of lying. And a Twitter account with ties to CIA-backed NGOs. But hey, that's sort of the point. Just seed a little doubt so you don't have to feel bad about supporting this.<iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.d37472b4a6622d0b1fff46ad904f6896.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.operationsports.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 08:25 PM

Conversely, one could argue that one minute before the hospital was hit, Hamas posted on its Telegram channel that they were launching their strongest rockets at Haifa; ultimately, no interceptions or impacts were ever detected.

Not a tough one to crack as you said. Hamas did what they said they would do.

Or better yet, let's let it play out and we'll see once we have more information. That doesn't seem to be your MO though.

You should open a map and see where Haifa is before regurgitating crap from the dumbest people online.

GrantDawg

10-17-2023, 08:26 PM

Here you go. They hit the hospital a couple of days ago and then told them to evacuate. The article is from the 15th.

Al Ahli Arab Hospital Hit by Israeli Rockets, Urgent Evacuation Ordered (https://avh.org/content/news-and-events/gaza-hospital-hit-by-israeli-rockets-urgent-evacuation-ordered.html)

But the best proof is that Israel admitted it. Netanyahu's advisor bragged about hitting the hospital and killing terrorists shortly after it happened. When news of mass casualties came out, he deleted that and changed his story.

So you have the Israeli government telling everyone they would hit the hospital. The hospital gets obliterated by what looks and sounds like a JDAM.Then Israel brags about it.

There is also zero chance Hamas had a BADR-3 with that kind of munitions just hanging out in Gaza. Israel would have obliterated it as soon as the conflict started (likely before). And if they did have it, why the fuck have they not used it? Why was it not part of their attack a week ago? If there are actually functioning BADR-3 rockets in Gaza, Israel is the most incompetent military that has ever existed.

The only sources for this not being from Israel is coming from the Israeli government who initially took credit for the attack and has a history of lying. And a Twitter account with ties to CIA-backed NGOs. But hey, that's sort of the point. Just seed a little doubt so you don't have to feel bad about supporting this.<iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.d37472b4a6622d0b1fff46ad904f6896.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.operationsports.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>
You believe every dodgy pro-Hamas account and come at me hot? I at least say there is a question, but you have all the answers straight from Hamas PR reps mouth. Again, that warning wasn't singling out that hospital. It was for all the hospitals in the region along with all civilians. Why would you warn a target you are going to hit it? How does that even make sense? How will hiting a hospital even help their war goals? The only people that has benefit from this attack is Hamas. While no one has even suggested this was a purposeful false flag attack, it would seem they had way more to gain. And the supposed quote from Netanyahu's advisor is questionable as well. Then there is the supposed quote from Al-Jezeera that I have seen several people forward, but notice none of them provide a link to a source. Looked all over Al_Jezeera for it. Nada.
I will admit Israel sends out false information and propaganda on a regular basis. There is no way I am ready to claim this was are wasn't Israel. Are you willing to do the same? Of course not.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 08:28 PM

Doesn't have to be foreign. Just take the pictures of the missile/rocket wreckage, there has to be some right?

I mean there's a dozen or so videos floating around online that show it resembling what a JDAM looks and sounds like.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 08:51 PM

You believe every dodgy pro-Hamas account and come at me hot? I at least say there is a question, but you have all the answers straight from Hamas PR reps mouth. Again, that warning wasn't singling out that hospital. It was for all the hospitals in the region along with all civilians. Why would you warn a target you are going to hit it? How does that even make sense? How will hiting a hospital even help their war goals? The only people that has benefit from this attack is Hamas. While no one has even suggested this was a purposeful false flag attack, it would seem they had way more to gain. And the supposed quote from Netanyahu's advisor is questionable as well. Then there is the supposed quote from Al-Jezeera that I have seen several people forward, but notice none of them provide a link to a source. Looked all over Al_Jezeera for it. Nada.
I will admit Israel sends out false information and propaganda on a regular basis. There is no way I am ready to claim this was are wasn't Israel. Are you willing to do the same? Of course not.

The country that has routinely targeted hospitals (including this very one 2 days earlier), told the hospital (and 5 others) they were going to bomb it, and then bragged about bombing it, might have had something to do with it. Just a hunch.

The Naftali tweet is not a "supposed quote". He said it and admits it. I don't know why you're rushing to defend this as fake when everyone involved admits he said it.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 09:12 PM

I mean there's a dozen or so videos floating around online that show it resembling what a JDAM looks and sounds like.

I can’t see in the dark.

I’m sure pics was taken of the wreckage. Show them.

RainMaker

10-17-2023, 09:28 PM

I can’t see in the dark.

I’m sure pics was taken of the wreckage. Show them.

I'm sure the people with no electricity or internet might struggle with your request.

Edward64

10-17-2023, 09:37 PM

I'm sure the people with no electricity or internet might struggle with your request.

No idea.

I'm sure it'll come out eventually. I'll wait for corroborating evidence either way.

GrantDawg

10-18-2023, 03:39 AM

Picture and videos out now show that it was not the building that was struck. It was mostly a car park and open area outside the hospital. Most of the damage seems to be from flames, which would not be the case from a high-explosive. No catering which would indicate something like a JDAM which is used to damage structures or destroy bunkers. If not rocket fuel burn, it would have to be a firebomb.

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Edward64

10-18-2023, 05:42 AM

The recording is compelling, but obviously with technology nowadays, perfectly understandable if people do not accept it. It would be better if they did not block out the names and identified them but that is also understandable. The audio also talks about the wreckage being "local" and not Israeli ...

https://videoidf.azureedge.net/e67ae402-79e2-4e8c-a6a5-d32da01ccf80

Pic of damage area. I think IDF said there were 3 areas damaged but this was the only one I saw. I'd like to see a "crater" if there is one, should be easy for Hamas to produce it.

https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1714525133799342530/photo/1
https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1714525133799342530/photo/1

Walkthrough of the site

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714535687070916987

Good thing for daylight. We can see better now and not just rely on dark videos and sounds of what supposedly JDAM sounds like.

GrantDawg

10-18-2023, 07:25 AM

This the other craters a good ways from the explosion site. There had been some hits around the site earlier so they might not have even come from this one.
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CrimsonFox

10-18-2023, 07:38 AM

This just in. Everyone in the video was created by AI

Edward64

10-18-2023, 10:29 AM

From BBC.

Some crater shots.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061
Based on available evidence, it appears the explosion happened in a courtyard which is part of the hospital site. Images of the ground after the blast do not show significant damage to surrounding hospital buildings. What the images do show includes scorch marks and burnt-out cars.
The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) say that the absence of a large crater, or blast damage to adjacent buildings, proves that the explosion was not caused by its weapons.
Another important part of missing evidence is missile fragments. Projectiles are often identifiable by the wreckage of their shell, and they can be used to determined the projectile's origin. But in this case, we have not seen that evidence.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/DC9C/production/_131467465_crater1-nc.png.webp

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/12ABC/production/_131467467_crater12-nc.png.webp

GrantDawg

10-18-2023, 11:57 AM

And now that they have been moved, any evidence from the fragments will be tainted. What a mess. This is just an ink-blot test at this point. People are going to see whatever position they want to see.

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NobodyHere

10-18-2023, 03:26 PM

I mean there's a dozen or so videos floating around online that show it resembling what a JDAM looks and sounds like.

Have you shown Joe Biden your evidence? He seems to think it was the Palestinians that blew up the hospitsl.

GrantDawg

10-18-2023, 03:31 PM

Really good article on what comes next, which is not good even in the best case scenarios.
Every Option for Israel in Gaza Is Bad (https://www.thedailybeast.com/every-option-for-israel-in-gaza-is-bad)

RainMaker

10-18-2023, 03:38 PM

Have you shown Joe Biden your evidence? He seems to think it was the Palestinians that blew up the hospitsl.

He also said he saw photos of beheaded babies.

Ghost Econ

10-18-2023, 03:54 PM

This is like that time Reddit found the Boston Bombers.

Carman Bulldog

10-18-2023, 06:13 PM

Have you shown Joe Biden your evidence? He seems to think it was the Palestinians that blew up the hospitsl.

The problem is that Biden is neither an expert in the specific acoustics of different bombs, missiles, rockets, etc. nor in watching small lights in the dark sky on a video and assessing the specific type of airborne weapons they are. So the video's going to mean nothing to Biden. Thankfully we can rely on experts like RainMaker and others on social media for this information.

RainMaker

10-18-2023, 06:22 PM

Well I roughly know where Haifa is on a map and didn't lie about seeing photos of beheaded babies.

Edward64

10-18-2023, 06:43 PM

Well I roughly know where Haifa is on a map and didn't lie about seeing photos of beheaded babies.

So, has your stance on the Hospital incident changed? Do you still believe it was an Israeli rocket attack or lean towards a Hamas/Islamic Jihad misfire?

Carman Bulldog

10-18-2023, 07:24 PM

Well I roughly know where Haifa is on a map...
As do I, although admittedly not until shortly before I made that post yesterday. The whole point of the post regarding the alleged Hamas-Haifa comments was that those comments (and theory) seemed as poorly sourced - and ridiculous - as the stuff you were posting, simply from the opposite political spectrum.

That's why I added:

Or better yet, let's let it play out and we'll see once we have more information.
It appears you chose to ignore that last part.

RainMaker

10-18-2023, 08:07 PM

So, has your stance on the Hospital incident changed? Do you still believe it was an Israeli rocket attack or lean towards a Hamas/Islamic Jihad misfire?

Not really, it's all just circumstantial. One one hand, we know Israel targets hospitals, we know they struck that hospital twice a couple of days earlier, and we know they told them to evacuate the hospital as more strikes were coming. We also know they initially took credit for the strike on the hospital and bragged they had killed terrorists hiding out there.

On the other hand, we have the word of Israel, a country that has lied incessantly over the years about atrocities they commit. A country that has changed its story half a dozen times on what happened here. Or Joe Biden, a man who blatantly lied about an alleged atrocity during a national press conference.

People can decide on their own based on that evidence. But I'd lean toward the perpetrator being the one that does this routinely, said they would do it, and bragged about doing it.

It appears you chose to ignore that last part.

Reporters are banned by Israel from entering into Gaza to report on this. Heck, they murdered an American journalist last year in the West Bank and lied about it. Where are you planning to get this "further information" from?

GrantDawg

10-18-2023, 08:18 PM

Not really, it's all just circumstantial. One one hand, we know Israel targets hospitals, we know they struck that hospital twice a couple of days earlier, and we know they told them to evacuate the hospital as more strikes were coming. We also know they initially took credit for the strike on the hospital and bragged they had killed terrorists hiding out there.
I looked into the guy who "bragged they killed terrorist" there. He is the Israeli version of Steve Bannon. Not someone that comes anywhere near actual information. He is a guy who inflames anger to help right-wing candidates.

Every single statement you just made is misinformation. It has some elements of truth, but twisted just enough to be used for the "truth" you want. I do find it fascinating that someone can just totally buy the talking points from a terrorist organization. Oh, I forgot. Hamas murders babies, children, whole families in front of each other, but that is justified. Only Israel should be held accountable for anything they do, anything Hamas does, anything Hezbolla does, anything Iran does....
Selling out to one side really puts the blinders on.

RainMaker

10-18-2023, 11:06 PM

I looked into the guy who "bragged they killed terrorist" there. He is the Israeli version of Steve Bannon. Not someone that comes anywhere near actual information. He is a guy who inflames anger to help right-wing candidates.

Netanyahu spoke at the guys wedding. He's an advisor and Netanyahu's "digital spokesman". Not some crank on Twitter.

Every single statement you just made is misinformation. It has some elements of truth, but twisted just enough to be used for the "truth" you want. I do find it fascinating that someone can just totally buy the talking points from a terrorist organization. Oh, I forgot. Hamas murders babies, children, whole families in front of each other, but that is justified. Only Israel should be held accountable for anything they do, anything Hamas does, anything Hezbolla does, anything Iran does....
Selling out to one side really puts the blinders on.

No one said Hamas is justified. You just use that as a strawman because you can't defend the slaughter of innocent lives. I hope everyone in Hamas is killed. I definitely wouldn't have propped them up as Netanyahu did.

Pull up the number of innocent civilians killed and injured in this conflict over the past couple of decades. It's a staggering difference. And that doesn't even touch on the inhumanity of running an apartheid state. Or of imprisoning 2 million people in a tiny stretch of land. Or of illegally settling on lands and violently removing people. The atrocities committed by Hamas (who are just a fraction of Palestinians) pales in comparison to what Israel continues to do to this day.

GrantDawg

10-19-2023, 01:35 AM

I didn't justify the killing of innocents. I didn't spend several posts in this thread trying to justify Hamas' attack on Israel like you. The guy you are talking about is a political advisor, just like Steve Bannon. He is absolutely a crank on Twitter, because that is exactly his specialty. It doesn't feed your narrative, so you are going to make him out to be some military advisor to suit your hatred of Israel.
I have already said in this thread that Israel needs to stop the bombing campaign. Israel has been guilty of great evils to the Palestisn people and the continued escalation needs to stop. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen until Israel removes Hamas from power, and the fact Hamas has no qualms in using civilians as human shields means this is going to get worse before it gets better. Hamas has no problem with the death of innocent Palestinians. They actually thrive on it because it makes great PR opportunities. Whether this attack was Israel or Hamas there was only one benefactor to it, and that was Hamas.

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RainMaker

10-19-2023, 04:19 AM

If Steve Bannon had tweeted in 2017 that we bombed a hospital in Syria to kill terrorists, then backtracked and blamed jihadists when it turned out to be getting bad press, people would have absolutely believed that it happened.

This isn't going to end when Hamas is out of power. This started long before Hamas was even a thing. People who are imprisoned won't just stop fighting for freedom. And the daily atrocities happening in the West Bank have nothing to do with Hamas either.

And again, Hamas is what Netanyahu wanted. He propped them up over the years to weaken Fatah. He knew that put Israeli citizens at risk, but it was worth the sacrifice their lives to prevent a 2-state solution. If he wanted to destroy Hamas right now, he'd be bombing Qatar.

GrantDawg

10-19-2023, 06:29 AM

If Steve Bannon had tweeted in 2017 that we bombed a hospital in Syria to kill terrorists, then backtracked and blamed jihadists when it turned out to be getting bad press, people would have absolutely believed that it happened.
No they wouldn't. Bannon lies to lie for one thing. Secondly, this was a reaction to a tweet, not exposing some grand scheme. It is posts this guy does all the time, tweaking posts that the opposition is posting. This would be like Bannon reposting a tweet about George Floyd right after his death and going "We got another criminal off the streets."

This isn't going to end when Hamas is out of power. This started long before Hamas was even a thing. People who are imprisoned won't just stop fighting for freedom. And the daily atrocities happening in the West Bank have nothing to do with Hamas either.

And again, Hamas is what Netanyahu wanted. He propped them up over the years to weaken Fatah. He knew that put Israeli citizens at risk, but it was worth the sacrifice their lives to prevent a 2-state solution. If he wanted to destroy Hamas right now, he'd be bombing Qatar.

Netanyahu probably is done whatever happens here. Unless some Grand Peace comes out of this (which there is a greater chance that the moon is made of cheese), his government is done. They are guilty of catastrophic failures across the board. I don't see any way he survives this.
As for "ending with Hamas", of course it doesn't. The only silver lining here is much the ground of any peace there has come after these big upheavals. Hopefully this will lead to a more moderate Israeli government and some real forward progress on some type of agreement. But it is going to get much uglier before it gets better, if it doesn't grow into greater regional fighting which would be beyond catastrophic.

RainMaker

10-19-2023, 05:09 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="rtl">لقطات توثق ما بعد استهداف الطائرات الاسرائيلية لأقدم كنيسة في غزة. <br>حيث كانت الكنيسة ملجأ لما لا يقل عن 400 مسيحي<br>لا عدد نهائي للضحايا<br>Israeli attack on Gaza’s Greek Orthodox Church. At least 400 Palestinian Christians were seeking refuge inside. <br>No final death tolls till now. <a href="https://t.co/X3CtzLWugx">pic.twitter.com/X3CtzLWugx</a></p>— EK �� (@akh1e) <a href="https://twitter.com/akh1e/status/1715123599957213514?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 19, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-20-2023, 01:42 AM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Total Devastation: Images of survivors picking through the rubble of the Saint Porphyrius Church in Gaza, the world's 3rd oldest Christian building. <br><br>Four Israeli missiles hit the building tonight.<br><br>Church authorities estimate there are already 150 dead. <a href="https://t.co/bo42NmpJxA">pic.twitter.com/bo42NmpJxA</a></p>— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1715128417736110358?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 19, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Edward64

10-20-2023, 06:17 AM

re: Greek Orthodox Church

Let's come back in a week or two and see what they say.

The Israeli military said that a blast Thursday night on the St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church campus in Gaza City was the result of its airstrike.

The blast resulted in the collapse of a building adjacent to the church where dozens of people were sheltering and killed two people. Hundreds were sheltering on the campus of the church. The Israeli military said a wall of a church in the area was damaged. “The incident is under review,” it said. The Patriarchate of Jerusalem didn't respond to request for comment Friday. On Thursday, it denounced the incident as an Israeli bombing.

Yeah, no denying that is a crater.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/4EJGGLSPT3RNM42GFI4WMYMR5E.jpg&w=540

vs this one ...

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/12ABC/production/_131467467_crater12-nc.png.webp

GrantDawg

10-20-2023, 12:52 PM

Interesting. Some hope, maybe? It would be nice if they would get them to stop the bombing campaign as well.
<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEWS <br><br>The United States and European governments have been putting pressure on Israel to delay its ground invasion of Gaza to buy time for secret talks underway via Qatar to win the release of hostages held by Hamas. <br><br>After initially resisting a delay in what officials said…</p>— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) <a href="https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1715423284760858641?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-20-2023, 01:58 PM

I still can't imagine they'll go through with a ground war. Young people are not exactly on board with the government there and we've seen they aren't equipped for an urban battle environment. Their military fell into the trap that we saw recently with Lebanon or with South Korea after WW2.

The best way to do it is to put pressure on Qatar. That will have to come from the United States as Israel doesn't care about the hostages. Two Americans were just released.

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><iframe id="twitter-widget-0" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" class="" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block; flex-grow: 1;" title="Twitter Tweet" src="https://platform.twitter.com/embed/Tweet.html?dnt=false&embedId=twitter-widget-0&features=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%3D%3D&frame=false&hideCard=false&hideThread=false&id=1715432830056923276&lang=en&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.operationsports.com%2Ffofc%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D99006&sessionId=6b73d3460469ac8ccfaf14b8c3cfcb158fafad2d&theme=light&widgetsVersion=01917f4d1d4cb%3A1696883169554&width=550px"></iframe>
NEW: Hamas hostages Natalie and Judith Raanan have been released, according to Israeli state media.

The Chicagoland mother & daughter were kidnapped by Hamas while visitng relatives. Family here has so far declined comment. @ilana_arougheti (https://twitter.com/ilana_arougheti?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)'s story: Israeli state media confirms release of Hamas hostages from Evanston (https://t.co/zbGIgoEf74)
— Jake Sheridan (@JakeSheridan_) October 20, 2023 (https://twitter.com/JakeSheridan_/status/1715432830056923276?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) <script async="" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp><iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.d37472b4a6622d0b1fff46ad904f6896.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.operationsports.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe>

NobodyHere

10-20-2023, 02:16 PM

RainMaker

10-20-2023, 02:19 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Just really rotten stuff.<a href="https://t.co/SAOL6okPxA">https://t.co/SAOL6okPxA</a> <a href="https://t.co/2lC3Dr3one">pic.twitter.com/2lC3Dr3one</a></p>— Abe Silberstein (@abesilbe) <a href="https://twitter.com/abesilbe/status/1714852909576339876?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 19, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

CrimsonFox

10-20-2023, 02:20 PM

:lol: Can you really say talks are "secret" in a tweet where you speak about them?

ooooooooooooooooooooo secret talks
:jester:

GrantDawg

10-20-2023, 02:26 PM

Can you really say talks are "secret" in a tweet where you speak about them?
As long as no country has announce them as official, yes. "Secret" in this instance (and in diplomacy in general) means "not made officially public."

Ghost Econ

10-20-2023, 02:31 PM

It's like Michigan advanced scouting.

Edward64

10-20-2023, 03:18 PM

Interesting. Some hope, maybe? It would be nice if they would get them to stop the bombing campaign as well.

I guess it's possible they won't go into Gaza city, Joe told them to not make the same mistakes.

But I can see them going into Gaza Strip and creating more of a buffer zone. They'll eventually give that back in negotiations.

I don't see not going in at all.

RainMaker

10-20-2023, 03:23 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Israel Police: Anti-war protesters will be sent to Gaza<br><br>Israeli police chief says there's a ‘zero tolerance’ police for anti-war protests, threatening to send them to Gaza in buses. <a href="https://t.co/MIHJCot1JO">https://t.co/MIHJCot1JO</a> <a href="https://t.co/T3gy8ZkFL2">pic.twitter.com/T3gy8ZkFL2</a></p>— Middle East Monitor (@MiddleEastMnt) <a href="https://twitter.com/MiddleEastMnt/status/1715025366329270677?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 19, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-20-2023, 05:58 PM

Former United States Congressman:

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I was really worried about this. �� With great sadness, I have now confirmed that several of my relatives (including Viola and Yara pictured here) were killed at Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church in Gaza, where they had been sheltering, when part of the complex was destroyed as… <a href="https://t.co/w5k1xEeTgF">pic.twitter.com/w5k1xEeTgF</a></p>— Justin Amash (@justinamash) <a href="https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1715470077196194068?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

10-21-2023, 08:39 AM

Supply trucks are moving.

Rafah crossing: What is it and how does it work? | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17/middleeast/rafah-border-crossing-gaza-israel-explained-intl/index.html)
The crossing is presently closed. It was briefly opened on Saturday morning to allow the first convoy of 20 trucks, laden with vital supplies, to cross into Gaza.

According to Egyptian authorities at the Rafah crossing, 13 trucks were carrying medicine and medical supplies, five were carrying food and two trucks had water.

While many international organizations welcomed the short reopening, aid workers say the supplies are a fraction of what’s required for the 2.2 million people crammed into Gaza under a blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt.

The United States has been pressuring Egypt to establish a humanitarian corridor for civilians in Gaza, as well as for foreigners.
There are around 200 trucks at the border waiting to get into Gaza and negotiations are ongoing between Israel and the US for an agreement that could allow more aid to get in.
Can't blame Egypt. Odds are they'll be left with a ton of permanent refugees if they let this happen.

Egypt has said it won’t allow refugees to flood its territory and has instead insisted that Israel allow it to deliver aid to Gazans.
Article also had link with movement between Gaza and Egypt.

Gaza crossings: movement of people and goods | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory (https://www.ochaopt.org/data/crossings)
According to United Nations figures, an average of 27,000 people crossed the border each month as of July this year. The border was open for 138 days and closed for 74 this year until that month.

Edward64

10-22-2023, 06:23 AM

A lot of info in the opinion poll below. Broken out by age groups. In general, younger & older people think differently (no surprise).

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf#page=42

Edward64

10-25-2023, 06:20 AM

re: Greek Orthodox Church

Let's come back in a week or two and see what they say.

Yeah, no denying that is a crater.

vs this one ...

re: Greek Orthodox Church bombing.

IDF Confirms It Damaged a Church in a Strike on a Hamas Command Center - Alex Demas - The Dispatch (https://thedispatch.com/article/idf-confirms-it-damaged-a-church-in-a-strike-on-a-hamas-command-center/)
The Holy Orthodox Order of Saint George the Great Martyr, to which the Gazan church belongs, confirmed the report, stating that bombs hit two church walls and that an estimated 150 to 200 people were killed. The order later revised its death toll, stating on Friday that approximately 20 to 25 people had been confirmed dead, some of whom have been named.
Former Rep. Justin Amash—a Republican-turned-Libertarian from Michigan who is of Palestinian descent—tweeted on Friday that several of his relatives were killed during the strike, including his infant second cousin, and later posted a video of the damage sustained at the church.
In the video, the church sanctuary itself is shown to have been spared by the blast. However, the adjacent church annex collapsed, killing a number of people sheltering inside.
Amash's video.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In this video, provided to me by a relative on site, you can see the destruction at Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church in Gaza. The ancient sanctuary remains standing, but the church annex, which includes offices and meeting spaces for the Christian community, collapsed from an… <a href="https://t.co/jJfRD29uJK">pic.twitter.com/jJfRD29uJK</a></p>— Justin Amash (@justinamash) <a href="https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1716512563096170835?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 23, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The IDF official response

Unlike the recent explosion at the al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza, for which Israeli officials denied responsibility, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed that they had inadvertently damaged the Church of Saint Porphyrius in a strike. “Earlier tonight (October 20th), IDF fighter jets targeted the command and control center belonging to a Hamas terrorist, involved in the launching of rockets and mortars toward Israel. The command and control center was used to carry out attacks against Israel, and contained infrastructure belonging to the Hamas terrorist organization,” an IDF spokesperson told The Dispatch Fact Check. “As a result of the IDF strike, a wall of a Church in the area of the center was damaged. We are aware of reports on casualties. The incident is under review.”

Edward64

10-25-2023, 06:37 AM

Good article. Basically, saying that Joe is discouraging Bibi from going all in assaulting Gaza.

US military advisers invoke lessons of Iraq in urging Israelis to avoid all-out ground assault in Gaza | CNN Politics (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/politics/us-military-advisers-iraq-israel-ground-assault-gaza/index.html)
Biden has encouraged Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in their recent conversations to think through how such an invasion would unfold, and what the exit strategy would be, officials said. Biden and Netanyahu spoke on Sunday and again on Monday, and in those conversations, the president sought to try to “get [Netanyahu] to use his head, not his heart,” a source familiar said.

Still, the sentiment across much of the US government is that Israel is almost certain to proceed with a full scale ground invasion, in large part because domestic sentiment inside Israel is so enflamed that Netanyahu may feel he has no other choice.
We've sent advisors. TBH, I'm not convinced the US tactics below will work.

In helping the Israel Defense Forces game out a number of different strategies to defeat Hamas, US military advisers on the ground in Israel are invoking lessons learned specifically from Fallujah in 2004, one of the bloodiest battles of the Iraq War.

Instead of launching a full-scale ground assault on Gaza, which could endanger hostages, civilians, and further inflame tensions in the region, US military advisers are urging Israelis to use a combination of precision airstrikes and targeted special operations raids.

Israel doesn't have many good choices. Personally, I don't think western world opinion (e.g. US) can sustain a prolonged invasion. If they go in, it'll have to be quick, destroy as much of Hamas as possible (and hostages will be secondary).

But because an invasion hasn't been launched yet, good chance that Joe's conversations with Bibi is having its effect.

RainMaker

10-25-2023, 03:13 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Less than 48 hours after Blinken told Jewish Community Leaders that he asked Qatari PM to rein in Al Jazeera's Israel-Hamas war coverage, Israel kills the whole family of Wael Dahdouh , Aljazeera Senior correspondent in Gaza. <a href="https://t.co/p1cNuLBNSP">https://t.co/p1cNuLBNSP</a></p>— Said Arikat (@SMArikat) <a href="https://twitter.com/SMArikat/status/1717229079156445682?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 25, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-25-2023, 06:47 PM

Really going all in on murdering journalists.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This madness needs to end. Just an hour ago, Israeli warplanes bombed the home of journalist Doaa Sharaf, resulting in her and her son's murder. <a href="https://t.co/Mc9u5m567E">pic.twitter.com/Mc9u5m567E</a></p>— Abdalhadi Alijla عبد الهادي العجلة (@alijla2021) <a href="https://twitter.com/alijla2021/status/1717309745881616518?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 25, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

GrantDawg

10-27-2023, 02:23 PM

Every indication is that Israel is going into Gaza soon. Most likely the next 24 hours. The US is still trying to get them to scale back their plans, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

RainMaker

10-27-2023, 02:34 PM

Every indication is that Israel is going into Gaza soon. Most likely the next 24 hours. The US is still trying to get them to scale back their plans, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I don't think the US is trying to get them to do anything.

GrantDawg

10-27-2023, 02:34 PM

I don't think the US is trying to get them to do anything.
You are wrong, but you can think what you want.

Edward64

10-27-2023, 03:02 PM

GrantDawg

10-27-2023, 03:27 PM

I’m surprise it’s taken so long.
The reports that said the US had talked them into holding out at least till Saturday to see if they could get some sort of ceasefire agreement in place looks to be dead on. Other than the few hostage released and the brief opening of the Egyptian border, it looks like it was a total failure.

Edward64

10-27-2023, 03:34 PM

Redditors are saying there’s IDF-Hamas fighting now. Looks like this is the invasion.

RainMaker

10-27-2023, 04:18 PM

You are wrong, but you can think what you want.

If they wanted it to stop, they would stop giving them weapons.

GrantDawg

10-27-2023, 04:21 PM

If they wanted it to stop, they would stop giving them weapons.
A. No they wouldn't. B. Not what the report said.
Read what I wrote again.

RainMaker

10-27-2023, 04:23 PM

Looks like attacks in the West Bank have intensified too. Dropping tear gas from drones and bulldozed a monument for the American journalist that was executed a year ago.

CrimsonFox

10-27-2023, 05:42 PM

Redditors are saying there’s IDF-Hamas fighting now. Looks like this is the invasion.

This is yhe end...my only friend. The end

Edward64

10-27-2023, 05:51 PM

This is yhe end...my only friend. The end

End times.

RainMaker

10-27-2023, 06:31 PM

Not much on the ground coverage since communications have been severed but these are some extraordinary shots.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Footage for the unprecedented lsraeli air attacks hitting Gaza Strip. <a href="https://t.co/CgLiAD2Etz">pic.twitter.com/CgLiAD2Etz</a></p>— TIMES OF GAZA (@Timesofgaza) <a href="https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1717989107664654432?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 27, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

CrimsonFox

10-28-2023, 04:15 AM

Israel is pretty much allin on this and say they won't stop until all of hamas is dead....no ceasefire no nothin

and....I still have no idea what is going on.

I mean Hamas is a terrorist organization right?
But who says they are just sitting in gaza in one place with a sign saying "all the humasians are here". So israels plan is just bomb everything in gaza, bombombomb

and

this makes no sense at all
oh yeah and they won't stop bombing everything and everyone until the hostages are returned

I...uh....i just can't...

CrimsonFox

10-28-2023, 04:16 AM

End times.

nah there would be rats involved if that were the case

Brian Swartz

10-28-2023, 06:04 AM

this makes no sense at all

From a purely logical, dispassionately viewing all the facts objectively polnt of view, how many wars in the history of humanity do make sense?

Edward64

10-28-2023, 07:17 AM

See at about 4:40. Weird thing to fess up to.

<iframe width="868" height="488" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vmeZmH_Cmc4" title="''민간인은 석방하지만 군인은 아니다''...하마스에 민간인 살상 사과 의사 없냐고 직접 물어봤다 (ft.바셈나임 하마스 정치국제관계부 대표) / SBS / 글로벌인사이트" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

GrantDawg

10-28-2023, 09:06 AM

Qwikshot

10-28-2023, 10:33 AM

Edward64

10-28-2023, 11:35 AM

Think we knew this last night but CNN is making it official

Israeli ground forces inside Gaza as Palestinians take stock after intense overnight bombardment | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/28/world/israeli-ground-forces-inside-gaza-saturday-intl?cid=ios_app)
Israeli ground forces are inside Gaza after entering the enclave overnight, as Palestinians experienced what they have described as the most intense round of airstrikes since Israel began its retaliation against Hamas’ October 7 terror attack.

Israeli forces “went into the Gaza Strip and expanded the ground operation where infantry, armor and engineer units and artillery with heavy fire are taking part,” Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said Saturday morning.

“The forces are in the field and continue the fighting,” he added, without giving further details.

RainMaker

10-28-2023, 04:51 PM

Meanwhile in the West Bank.

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">��Al-Sawiya, S. Nablus, West Bank:<br><br>Its peak olive harvest season. While everyone is in the fields, armed settlers break Shabbat to continue the slaughter of Palestinians (Zionist rabbis consider this Kosher).<br>They killed 40 year Bilal Yousef & shot others<a href="https://t.co/cSsITmuhaE">pic.twitter.com/cSsITmuhaE</a></p>— Jalal (@JalalAK_jojo) <a href="https://twitter.com/JalalAK_jojo/status/1718187584998826293?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 28, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

10-28-2023, 04:55 PM

And in Gaza.

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A video broadcasted a few moments ago by Al Jazeera shows the areas that were targeted in the airstrikes last night in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Gaza</a>, revealing the immense destruction and the efforts to rescue citizens from under the rubble. <a href="https://t.co/sMypPxQvMp">pic.twitter.com/sMypPxQvMp</a></p>— S A R A H ��✌️�� (@Sarah_Hassan94) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sarah_Hassan94/status/1718146972144570678?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 28, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

10-29-2023, 06:08 AM

Map of where the shellings are

Satellite analysis shows damaged buildings and impact craters in Gaza, Oct. 8–22

https://ix.cnn.io/dailygraphics/graphics/20231027-gaza-damage-full/static/media/ai2html-graphic-desktop.eadf0c5d.jpg

GrantDawg

10-29-2023, 10:16 AM

This board really hates big formats.
I read a comment from a previous Israeli PM that said his expectation is that the IDF is trying to make a buffer corridor in North Gaza, then use that as base to continue incursions into Gaza until the "end of the way". His estimate is 6 months to 5 years. I have a hard time believing they are going to be able to have that long an extended attack without their support collapsing. The only thing that is keeping their Western allies with them is the fear any weakness in support would be a green light for their neighbors to openly join in the fight (they already are through proxies). An extended engagement plays right into Hamas and Iran's hands. Really all of this does. They might have finally set off the war between the Muslim world and the West they have always dreamed of.

GrantDawg

10-29-2023, 10:46 AM

Fantastic article by a former IDF soldier. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/opinion/international-world/gaza-idf-israel-veterans.html

Edward64

10-30-2023, 06:51 AM

Honestly, IMO pretty good odds that is propaganda also. Comes from a Palestinian source.

From the video I saw with her naked, twisted leg in an unnatural angle, paraded around in a truck ... my guess is she was murdered.

But easy enough to prove it, they should do a quick video as proof of life.

Unfortunately, found dead.

Israeli-German Shani Louk's remains found, family confirms - Israel News - The Jerusalem Post (https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-770787)

The body of Israeli-German citizen Shani Louk, who was believed to have been kidnapped alive amid Hamas's assault on the music festival in Reim, was found on Monday, with Louk's sister, Adi, confirming Shani's death on Instagram.

Louk was seen in footage shared on the day of the attack laying motionless in the back of a truck after being kidnapped and brought into Gaza. It was unclear if she was alive in the video, although Louk's mother stated a few days later that she was alive and being held in a hospital in Gaza. Louk's mother, Ricarda, told the German RTL/ntv that she was informed on Sunday that her daughter was no longer alive.

CrimsonFox

10-30-2023, 05:07 PM

Are there any other civilians in gaza still alive?

RainMaker

10-30-2023, 05:39 PM

Are there any reporters they didn't target that could tell us?

CrimsonFox

10-30-2023, 06:37 PM

https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/396561923_10160128943979285_3361656165065234328_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s960x960&_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=wB_2oeWNJ0QAX9i0CLs&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AfARUSJ3hs7mU5pfYB2ivJrSp1iuuOu-8NzB0s6AO8nJsg&oe=6545E703

CrimsonFox

10-30-2023, 06:50 PM

Are there any reporters they didn't target that could tell us?

i still am very confused why ANYONE would go into gaza whether it's too report or to deliver aid or whatever. Both sides are bombing everything and everyone, regardless of the reason they are there. :(

NobodyHere

10-30-2023, 07:46 PM

CrimsonFox

10-31-2023, 04:27 AM

RainMaker

10-31-2023, 01:54 PM

Jabalya blast: Israeli strike on Gaza refugee camp causes casualties, officials say | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/jabalya-blast-gaza-intl/index.html)

JonInMiddleGA

10-31-2023, 02:25 PM

Somethinsomething campuses are showing increase in antisemitism, attacks or something or at least that's reported. And in Russia, Palestines attacked Isrealis getting off a plane? Dunno all details of anything but ...uh...okay

I saw the Russian airport thing on Twitter whenever it was, so help me I 100% thought it was merely Twitter doing that hoaxy thing it does a lot overnight. I thought "yeah, right, no way this is real"

Next day (yesterday? day before?) a friend referenced it in a post about some anti-semetic stuff in her area and I went "wait? it was real?" Looked on bbc dot com, sure enough, there was basically the same stuff I'd seen on Twitter.

CrimsonFox

10-31-2023, 05:28 PM

I saw the Russian airport thing on Twitter whenever it was, so help me I 100% thought it was merely Twitter doing that hoaxy thing it does a lot overnight. I thought "yeah, right, no way this is real"

Next day (yesterday? day before?) a friend referenced it in a post about some anti-semetic stuff in her area and I went "wait? it was real?" Looked on bbc dot com, sure enough, there was basically the same stuff I'd seen on Twitter.

yeah i mean russia is russia but the college campus thing i couldn't take seriously. I mean really ...are there huge groups of palestinians that are going to american colleges? what "incidents"? holding up a sign?

CrimsonFox

11-01-2023, 03:57 PM

one of you guys surely has stats on cilvians the US killed on their hunt for Alqueada

GrantDawg

11-01-2023, 04:57 PM

The closest thing I saw to a number, and it feels light:
"A recent report (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/18/us/airstrikes-pentagon-records-civilian-deaths.html) suggests that the botched strike is indicative of a larger trend. Based on 3,000 documents disclosed by the Pentagon, the study alleges to have identified “an institutional acceptance of an inevitable collateral toll” during U.S. strikes. Indeed, widely available data (https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/projects/drone-war) reflects the prevalence of civilian casualties resulting from U.S. strikes against suspected terrorists. According to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/projects/drone-war) (BIJ), for instance, U.S. strikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen from 2002 to 2020 killed between 10,000 and 17,000 people. Of these, between 800 and 1,750 are thought to have been civilians."

RainMaker

11-01-2023, 05:07 PM

Over 200,000 for the Iraq War alone.

GrantDawg

11-01-2023, 08:28 PM

He asked specifically about Alqueda, which wasn't what the Iraq War was about. That war was about oil and hurt feelings.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

RainMaker

11-01-2023, 09:08 PM

I mean they did say the main reason for war was Saddam was aiding Al-Qaeda. The fact they lied doesn't make those civilians any less dead.

CrimsonFox

11-01-2023, 11:31 PM

He asked specifically about Alqueda, which wasn't what the Iraq War was about. That war was about oil and hurt feelings.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

I mean those stats are good too but was just curious about the retaliation casualties from 9/11. That's something we can directly compare this to

Flasch186

11-02-2023, 05:52 AM

I mean they did say the main reason for war was Saddam was aiding Al-Qaeda. The fact they lied doesn't make those civilians any less dead.

I didn't take that as the *main* reason...i thought the main reason was that we couldn't stop him from trying to develop/acquire WMD, which turned out to be a lie.

GrantDawg

11-02-2023, 06:17 AM

I didn't take that as the *main* reason...i thought the main reason was that we couldn't stop him from trying to develop/acquire WMD, which turned out to be a lie.
That was the excuse given.

Brian Swartz

11-02-2023, 06:23 AM

i still am very confused why ANYONE would go into gaza whether it's too report or to deliver aid or whatever. Both sides are bombing everything and everyone, regardless of the reason they are there.

For some people there are more important priorities than self-preservation. The cause is worth the risk, etc.

Edward64

11-02-2023, 07:39 AM

My guess is Bibi thinks he can survive this. Golda Meir will beg to differ, but a lot has changed since then.

Netanyahu may not last, Biden and aides increasingly believe - POLITICO (https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/01/biden-administration-thinks-netanyahu-may-not-last-politically-00124849)
A current U.S. official and a former U.S. official both confirmed that the administration believes Netanyahu has limited time left in office. The current official said the expectation internally was that the Israeli PM would likely last a matter of months, or at least until the early fighting phase of Israel’s military campaign in the Gaza Strip was over, though all four officials noted the sheer unpredictability of Israeli politics.

“There’s going to have to be a reckoning within Israeli society about what happened,” said the official who, like others, was granted anonymity to detail private conversations. “Ultimately, the buck stops on the prime minister’s desk.”
And the possible next in line are ...

With an eye toward the future, U.S. officials are talking to Benny Gantz, a member of the current unity government; Naftali Bennett, a former prime minister; and Yair Lapid, an opposition leader and former prime minister, among other Israeli figures, the former official said.

GrantDawg

11-02-2023, 07:46 AM

Edward64

11-03-2023, 07:00 AM

Glad Blinken is over there.

I know the end goal is to destroy as much of Hamas as possible but there's always a balance between civilian casualties vs types of force used.

Biden and his team send blunt warnings to Israel: Civilian suffering in Gaza will weaken public support for war against Hamas | CNN Politics (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics/biden-administration-warning-israel-gaza-civilians/index.html)
President Joe Biden and his top advisers are warning Israel with growing force that it will become increasingly difficult for it to pursue its military goals in Gaza as global outcry intensifies about the scale of humanitarian suffering there.

Biden, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Secretary of State Antony Blinken – who departed Thursday for Israel with a message on protecting civilian lives – have all explicitly pressed the case in recent private conversations with the Israelis, telling them that eroding support will have dire strategic consequences for Israel Defense Forces operations against Hamas.

Behind the scenes, American officials also believe there is limited time for Israel to try to accomplish its stated objective of taking out Hamas in its current operation before uproar over the humanitarian suffering and civilian casualties – and calls for a ceasefire – reaches a tipping point.
Yup, there's a timetable. Weeks and not months seems right to me.

In fact, there is recognition within the administration that that moment may arrive quickly: Some of the president’s close advisers believe that there are only weeks, not months, until rebuffing the pressure on the US government to publicly call for a ceasefire becomes untenable, sources told CNN.

There's also reports that IDF has encircled Gaza. I hope there's an escape route South for women and children.

CrimsonFox

11-03-2023, 07:07 AM

imagine...for three weeks....there are enemies everywhere bombing all around you. Your neighbors have been murdered. You are told to leave. You sleep in a church with no food and drink the holy water. 2 of your family are already dead. You can't sleep. Every other day you are told to leave. The last group that left died. You have no idea where to go. You are threatened and told to leave because they will bomb the church. So you run but faint because you haven't slept or eaten. Someone runs you over with a tank

RainMaker

11-03-2023, 03:42 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We never share graphic videos. Today we’re making an exception. <br><br>The words “Israeli airstrike” do not convey the horror of what was done to people sheltering at al-Shifa hospital in Gaza.<br><br>Lives shattered. Bodies broken. Pain beyond imagining. <br><br>We must, if we can, bear witness. <a href="https://t.co/ioH5f1TxBz">pic.twitter.com/ioH5f1TxBz</a></p>— IfNotNow�� (@IfNotNowOrg) <a href="https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1720492529362075854?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

RainMaker

11-03-2023, 07:17 PM

Allowing American citizens to be bombed to smithereens.

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">��American citizens in Gaza targeted by Israeli forces while traveling to the crossing after given instructions by the U.S. Embassy. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ceasefirenow?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Ceasefirenow</a> <a href="https://t.co/kKmFkd6rNy">pic.twitter.com/kKmFkd6rNy</a></p>— American Muslims for Palestine (@AMPalestine) <a href="https://twitter.com/AMPalestine/status/1720538736398565874?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

11-05-2023, 08:25 AM

Don't see western press reporting this (yet) but would be a great option if feasible. Abbas & West Bank has been relatively peaceful w/Israel.

But assuming Hamas is bombed to smithereens, would Gaza civilians even want Abbas & PLO governing them? Would Abbas be able to retain control?

Just a moment... (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/abbas-pa-will-take-responsibility-for-gaza-if-comprehensive-political-solution-reached/)
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas says during a meeting in Ramallah with US State Secretary Anthony Blinken that the PA is ready to shoulder full responsibility for the Gaza Strip in the framework of a comprehensive political solution that will include the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza after Israel’s war against the Hamas terror group ends.

Abbas stresses that security and peace can only be achieved by ending Israel’s military rule over the territories of the “State of Palestine,” and by recognizing East Jerusalem as its capital.

RainMaker

11-05-2023, 02:36 PM

Definitely the people we should be giving unlimited defense funds to.

Just a moment... (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-nuking-gaza-is-an-option-population-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts/)

NobodyHere

11-05-2023, 02:38 PM

RainMaker

11-05-2023, 07:17 PM

What is your solution to this situation?

Not to give them $14 billion in weapons.

Edward64

11-06-2023, 06:02 AM

So, any theories on why Hamas kidnapped children? and continue to hold them?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/TB_KIDS_HOSTAGE_A-1.jpg?w=620

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/TB_KIDS_HOSTAGE_B-1.jpg?w=620

CrimsonFox

11-06-2023, 07:22 AM

where did they get children? I thought all the hostages came from that concert?

Edward64

11-06-2023, 07:46 AM

where did they get children? I thought all the hostages came from that concert?

Kibbutz's were attacked and I'm sure there were families at the concert.

GrantDawg

11-07-2023, 01:38 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I encourage everyone to watch this entire <a href="https://twitter.com/jaketapper?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@jaketapper</a> segment which lays bare how deeply evil and cynical Hamas and its top funder the Islamic Republic are. <br><br>This does not mean governments are off the hook, but Hamas and the Islamic Republic do not wish for freedom... all they… <a href="https://t.co/H6uALK5QQX">pic.twitter.com/H6uALK5QQX</a></p>— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) <a href="https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1721971888124248228?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 7, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

11-08-2023, 06:08 AM

Good to see some civilians getting out of there.

The Israelis share this footage today from Salah a Din road and it shows the continuation of the exodus from #Gaza city to the south, while the UN confirms a sharp increase as well.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Israelis share this footage today from Salah a Din road and it shows the continuation of the exodus from <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Gaza</a> city to the south, while the UN confirms a sharp increase as well. <a href="https://t.co/BWtmhEmofG">pic.twitter.com/BWtmhEmofG</a></p>— Gaza Report - اخبار غزة (@gaza_report) <a href="https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1722213287969124653?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Edward64

11-08-2023, 01:31 PM

Interesting story about how an Israeli called a dentist in Gaza 3 separate times to tell him to evacuate buildings within 2-3 hours each time. The Israeli knew details of the dentist and stayed on the phone with the dentist and he did his thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079
During this conflict, the Israeli military has phoned Gazans sometimes to warn them ahead of air strikes - Mahmoud's account gives an insight into one such phone call in an unprecedented level of detail.

The BBC contacted Mahmoud after multiple al-Zahra residents identified him as the man who received the warning call.

We cannot independently verify the contents of the call, which he recounted roughly three weeks after the event. The details, however, match those on a community Facebook group from the day as well as satellite images before and after the bombing.
The dentist asked the Israeli (while on the phone) to fire a shot, and then another to prove this guy was for real. And the Israeli did.

Mahmoud could not believe it when the man began speaking, he recalls.

People around him warned that the call may be fake. Since the war had begun, messages had been circulating in the community Facebook group warning of hoax calls and offering tips on identifying real Israeli evacuation orders.

Mahmoud asked the voice on the phone to fire a warning shot to prove this was real. If those still sleeping did not hear the screams from the streets then they would hear the shot, he thought.

A warning shot seemingly from nowhere, but perhaps from a drone, hit one of the apartment blocks under threat, he says.

"I asked him to 'shoot another warning shot before you bomb'," Mahmoud says. One more rang out.

I can only imagine the terror & weight of responsibility the dentist felt. That's a neighbor I want to have.

GrantDawg

11-08-2023, 02:35 PM

They have arrested a suspect in the murder of Samantha Woll, the Synagogue president that was killed in Detroit. No information about who yet.

Edir: They are saying it was likely not a hate crime, so at least in that sense it is good news.

Edward64

11-08-2023, 03:02 PM

I guess Hamas really didn't want the civilians to leave Gaza City after all. Can't lose those human shields.

â€˜We canâ€™t ignore these peopleâ€™: huge surge in numbers fleeing Gaza City | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/08/thousands-flee-gaza-under-watch-israeli-tanks)
Hamas indicated it was opposed to the ongoing evacuation, accusing the UN of colluding with the Israeli military in the “forced displacement” of residents of Gaza.

“UNRWA [the UN’s Palestinian refugee agency] and its officials bear responsibility for this humanitarian catastrophe, in particular the residents of the Gaza [City] area and north of it,” said Salama Maruf, head of the media bureau of Hamas.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cd4a46e23016116d3934400777144f0fee4c12be/0_345_5181_3109/master/5181.jpg?width=620&dpr=1&s=none

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 04:16 PM

They don't want them to give up the land because settlers will move in and take it. Holy shit read a book on the conflict to understand what's going on.

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 04:17 PM

Like I don't blame people for leaving a genocide but the whole goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

GrantDawg

11-08-2023, 04:35 PM

They don't want them to give up the land because settlers will move in and take it. Holy shit read a book on the conflict to understand what's going on.
Of course it does. It has absolutely nothing to do with using them as human shields which is a War Crime in and of it self. Hamas admitting that exact thing is just not important. Hamas providing no bomb shelters for the civilians while having extensive tunnels to protect themselves is not important. Only Jews bad. Got it.

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 04:45 PM

Of course it does. It has absolutely nothing to do with using them as human shields which is a War Crime in and of it self. Hamas admitting that exact thing is just not important. Hamas providing no bomb shelters for the civilians while having extensive tunnels to protect themselves is not important. Only Jews bad. Got it.

The human shield excuse has been used as justification for genocide for a long time. It's been debunked repeatedly by human rights organizations who had boots on the ground.

White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead | HRW (https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/08/13/white-flag-deaths/killings-palestinian-civilians-during-operation-cast-lead)

Again, this is not new stuff. You can read about the decades and decades of conflict. Israel has always targeted civilians. They aren't bombing bakeries, hospitals, and refugee camps to get Hamas. They're civilian targets and it's meant to send a message. Just like the execution of journalists and their families.

Edward64

11-08-2023, 04:54 PM

re: giving up land. Let's have the civilians make their own decision if they want to stay or not.

There were some reports on Hamas preventing/discouraging civilians from leaving earlier. This statement lends credence to that.

GrantDawg

11-08-2023, 05:03 PM

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 05:22 PM

There is ample evidence of the fact Hamas is using civilians as human shields, not to mention Hamas leaders openly admitting it. Maybe you should read more than Hamas propaganda. But that would conflict with your very clear hatred of Jews.

Please post that ample evidence. I posted a link from Human Rights Watch that showed Israel lied about human shields. Here's another from the UN that showed they found zero evidence of this taking place in previous conflicts. You can find similar reports from Amnesty as well. This may be taking place, but it's been proven by independent organizations that it's a lie Israel frequently uses when committing war crimes.

https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

It's a 25-mile stretch of land with over 2 million people. There is almost no way to fully separate civilian and military populations in such a narrow stretch of land. That's why you don't bomb civilian targets filled with civilians. This isn't hitting a terrorist target in rural Southern Lebanon.

And this has nothing to do with Jews. Just as opposition to Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa had nothing to do with anti-white racism. Another common tactic used to obfuscate atrocities back in the day.

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 05:24 PM

re: giving up land. Let's have the civilians make their own decision if they want to stay or not.

Totally agree. The civilian population of Gaza should not be held in a prison and should be allowed to come and go like the rest of the world. Haven't seen you call for the wall to be taken down or gates to be opened, but I didn't scroll far a back in the thread so maybe I missed it.

Edward64

11-08-2023, 05:25 PM

There is ample evidence of the fact Hamas is using civilians as human shields, not to mention Hamas leaders openly admitting it. Maybe you should read more than Hamas propaganda. But that would conflict with your very clear hatred of Jews.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Oh yeah, let's not forget this one.

See at about 4:40. Weird thing to fess up to.

<iframe width="868" height="488" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vmeZmH_Cmc4" title="''민간인은 석방하지만 군인은 아니다''...하마스에 민간인 살상 사과 의사 없냐고 직접 물어봤다 (ft.바셈나임 하마스 정치국제관계부 대표) / SBS / 글로벌인사이트" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edward64

11-08-2023, 05:29 PM

Totally agree. The civilian population of Gaza should not be held in a prison and should be allowed to come and go like the rest of the world. Haven't seen you call for the wall to be taken down or gates to be opened, but I didn't scroll far a back in the thread so maybe I missed it.

Huh? I'm all for border control. "Like the rest of the world"? You are living in fantasy land.

There's plenty of places for Gazans to move around in Gaza Strip that has not been bombed. Do you want to see that graphic again?

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 05:55 PM

Huh? I'm all for border control. "Like the rest of the world"? You are living in fantasy land.

There's plenty of places for Gazans to move around in Gaza Strip that has not been bombed. Do you want to see that graphic again?

It's not border control; it's a siege.

And yes, the rest of the world is allowed to leave their city, state, country and travel to other places. Like you said, "let civilian populations make their own decisions".

GrantDawg

11-08-2023, 06:23 PM

There is interview after interview of Hamas leaders admitting to the massive tunnel networks and their use for attacking Israel and protecting their fighters. You as much as admitted yourself when you said there isn't enough room for military installations in such a small area. The video I posted earlier from Jake Tapper showed Hamas leaders admitting the existence of the tunnels, admitting that they are fine with Palestinian citizens being "martyrs", and admitting they have every intention to continue with waves of October 7th attacks if given the opportunity. They are very open in their desire of a complete Jewish genocide.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Edward64

11-08-2023, 06:33 PM

It's not border control; it's a siege.

And yes, the rest of the world is allowed to leave their city, state, country and travel to other places. Like you said, "let civilian populations make their own decisions".

It's perfectly understandable for a country not to allow citizens of another country/territory (who she is at war with) to cross into her borders without strict control.

What's unreasonable about that?

If Gazans want to travel out of Gaza, go through a friendly country like Egypt. If West Bank Palestinians want to travel out of West Bank, go to Jordan. Unfortunately, both countries have travel restrictions on Palestinians from Gaza & West Bank. No surprise really considering all the history.

re: giving up land. Let's have the civilians make their own decision if they want to stay or not.

There were some reports on Hamas preventing/discouraging civilians from leaving earlier. This statement lends credence to that.

My statement above was re: Gaza civilians leaving Gaza City, going to safer places in Gaza Strip ... and not leaving Gaza Strip for another country which is the tangent you are taking us to.

And before you say there are no safer places in Gaza strip, see link below. About 3 weeks out of date but you get the idea, lots of places that are "safer" than Gaza city (e.g. South).

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023) (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=3416341&postcount=166)

miked

11-08-2023, 06:35 PM

Edward64

11-08-2023, 06:46 PM

Yes, let's not forget that other arab countries have no qualms with leaving the Palestinians to their own. Egypt barely wants to open the Rafah crossing. Jordan has repeatedly passed on the chances to help. Most of the other countries, save Iran and Syria, have basically said no thanks.

I wonder if travel restrictions would free up more if Hamas said "no more fighting, no more smuggling of weapons, no more rocket attacks etc. we'll try the West Bank/Palestinian Authority way".

GrantDawg

11-08-2023, 06:52 PM

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 07:50 PM

No. Egypt's biggest fear is a mass of Palestinians filling the Sinai peninsula and then launching attacks on Israel and drawing them into a war. They would never trust Hamas promises not that Hamas would ever offer them.

That might be part of it, but Sisi is a dictator who overthrew a democratically elected leader. That leader had much stronger ties to Palestinians (Muslim Brotherhood). Having 2 million people who support your political opponent is not good for holding on to power.

Not to mention that the US prefers Sisi and pays a considerable amount of money to keep him in power. They aren't going to upset their gravy train.

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 07:54 PM

I wonder if travel restrictions would free up more if Hamas said "no more fighting, no more smuggling of weapons, no more rocket attacks etc. we'll try the West Bank/Palestinian Authority way".

You can just look up and see what kind of restrictions are placed on Arab civilians in the West Bank. The answer to your question is no.

Israel prefers Hamas over Fatah. They absolutely don't want Gaza leadership to be more like the West Bank.

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 08:22 PM

It's perfectly understandable for a country not to allow citizens of another country/territory (who she is at war with) to cross into her borders without strict control.

WTF are you talking about? Most of Gaza is refugees and refugee-descendants who had their land stolen from them. Their homeland is on the other side of the wall. They were forced into this prison.

If Gazans want to travel out of Gaza, go through a friendly country like Egypt. If West Bank Palestinians want to travel out of West Bank, go to Jordan. Unfortunately, both countries have travel restrictions on Palestinians from Gaza & West Bank. No surprise really considering all the history.

Egypt isn't a friendly country since the coup. They can't fly out since Israel destroyed their airport 20 years ago. They can't leave via boat since there is a naval blockade by Israel. And getting to the Rafah Crossing is easier said than done even if it was open. Israel just bombed a convoy of ambulances heading there the other day and routinely targets roads and highways that lead there.

As for the West Bank, what does that have to do with anything? Why are you even bringing those who live there up?

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 08:28 PM

NobodyHere

11-08-2023, 08:47 PM

Not to give them $14 billion in weapons.

I actually kind of agree with you on fiscal grounds, but can we also stop giving money to gaza/hamas as well?

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 08:57 PM

I actually kind of agree with you on fiscal grounds, but can we also stop giving money to gaza/hamas as well?

Throw in the Saudis, Egypt, Qatar, etc too. It's insane to read about how we still have tens of millions drinking through lead pipes whlie we throw hundreds of billions to other countries.

Edward64

11-08-2023, 09:07 PM

WTF are you talking about? Most of Gaza is refugees and refugee-descendants who had their land stolen from them. Their homeland is on the other side of the wall. They were forced into this prison.

Specifically re: your tangent of travelling out of country. If Hamas was to live in peace with Israel and not stir up problems in Egypt (and Jordan), there would be no blockade, there would be no wall, there would not be this current war.

Unfortunately, neither Israel nor Egypt nor Jordan trust Hamas enough to believe they will keep their promises. Hence ... walls.

Egypt isn't a friendly country since the coup.
The Rafah wall crossing was built in 2009. Tensions existed before even then.

They can't fly out since Israel destroyed their airport 20 years ago. They can't leave via boat since there is a naval blockade by Israel. And getting to the Rafah Crossing is easier said than done even if it was open. Israel just bombed a convoy of ambulances heading there the other day and routinely targets roads and highways that lead there.

As for the West Bank, what does that have to do with anything? Why are you even bringing those who live there up?

So Israel stops Palestinians from getting to Rafah Crossing?

If talking about pre-Oct 7, I'd think it's more Hamas and Egyptians.

If talking about now, see below on where the bombing is concentrated at. Yes, some Southern parts got bombed but definitely safer than Gaza city.

And before you say there are no safer places in Gaza strip, see link below. About 3 weeks out of date but you get the idea, lots of places that are "safer" than Gaza city (e.g. South).

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023) (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=3416341&postcount=166)

So tell me again, why does Hamas have children & grandma's as hostages?

RainMaker

11-08-2023, 10:30 PM

Specifically re: your tangent of travelling out of country. If Hamas was to live in peace with Israel and not stir up problems in Egypt (and Jordan), there would be no blockade, there would be no wall, there would not be this current war.

We aren't talking about Hamas, we are talking about Palestinian civilians. Israel can ban every member of Hamas and kill them for all I care. The people being killed and imprisoned have nothing to do with Hamas.

Asking Egypt to take millions of refugees who are mostly women and children (the most expensive to the economy) so Israel can have its ethnostate seems like an unfair ask.

Unfortunately, neither Israel nor Egypt nor Jordan trust Hamas enough to believe they will keep their promises. Hence ... walls.

Again, what does Jordan have to do with this? Do you know where Gaza is on the map?

So tell me again, why does Hamas have children & grandma's as hostages?

They take hostages so they can trade for Palestinian hostages. In the past, Israel has given very favorable terms for hostage trades.

Edward64

11-09-2023, 06:12 AM

We aren't talking about Hamas, we are talking about Palestinian civilians. Israel can ban every member of Hamas and kill them for all I care. The people being killed and imprisoned have nothing to do with Hamas.
I guess this is a crux of our disagreement. One of the key drivers of this mess is Hamas, even pre-Oct 7. It has everything to do with Hamas.

Unfortunately, the not-Hamas Palestinians are being impacted by Hamas. If Hamas stops for real (in a fantasy world), then travel will free up more.

Asking Egypt to take millions of refugees who are mostly women and children (the most expensive to the economy) so Israel can have its ethnostate seems like an unfair ask.
We are talking about Jordan & Egypt letting Palestinians travel through their land, either as final destination or as a transit point. Both options are severely limited because of the threat & history of Hamas and Palestinian Authority.

Also, taking in millions of antagonistic Palestinians (many for justifiable reasons) and try to assimilate them or letting them cross freely into Israel seems like an unfair ask. Better to keep the border restrictions for now.

Again, what does Jordan have to do with this? Do you know where Gaza is on the map?
Jordan borders West Bank? There are Palestinians in West Bank? There is Hamas (and PA) in West Bank?

So when talking about Israel creating a "prison" where Palestinians can't come and go, need to toss in Jordan and Egypt into the equation. And why those countries restrict travel into and through their territory.

They take hostages so they can trade for Palestinian hostages. In the past, Israel has given very favorable terms for hostage trades.

Yes, I understand taking hostages for trade. But I'll ask again, why children & grandmas? And why continue to keep them, easy enough to release them to UNRWA. (Well, not anymore but certainly in the past 2-3 weeks).

Edward64

11-09-2023, 06:20 AM

The human shield excuse has been used as justification for genocide for a long time. It's been debunked repeatedly by human rights organizations who had boots on the ground.

White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead | HRW (https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/08/13/white-flag-deaths/killings-palestinian-civilians-during-operation-cast-lead)

re: Hamas using human shields ...

I scanned your report. It certainly does NOT debunk that Hamas has used human shields ever. It debunks 7 incidents in one conflict in 2009.

But let's hear it from the UN secretary general in this current conflict.

Israel-Gaza live news: Israel reports 10-hour battle at Hamas 'stronghold' as evacuation resumes - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67364296/page/2)
The UN human rights chief has accused both Israel and Hamas of committing war crimes.
This is fair. Both sides is important

And UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres slammed Hamas for using people as human shields
There's the phrase.

... but also said that the number of civilians killed in Gaza showed something was "clearly wrong" with Israeli military operations
This is fair. Both sides is important

GrantDawg

11-09-2023, 06:25 AM

Just because Hamas doesn't care about civilians doesn't mean I have to support the genocide of those civilians. What you support is collective punishment.
No I don't because I was against the bombing campaign to begin with. I just don't believe Jews drink the blood of babies. You seem to believe every piece of propaganda Hamas puts out.

Edward64

11-09-2023, 06:56 AM

There's a report about how there were embedded journalists with Hamas as they crossed the border and went on their mayhem. The bottom of the article has the response from CNN, AP and Reuters which implies there is some truth to this.

Journalists with Hamas terrorists: Watchdog questions international media's presence (https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byf1woyma#autoplay)
Reuters, AP, CNN and NYT photojournalists arrived at border alongside Hamas terrorists, documenting murder of Israeli civilians, lynching of soldier and kidnappings to Gaza; HonestReporting questions whether they coordinated with Hamas and whether their employers had foreknowledge of the attack
"Did the photojournalists who freelance for other media, like CNN and The New York Times, notify these outlets? Judging from the pictures of lynching, kidnapping and storming of an Israeli kibbutz, it seems like the border has been breached not only physically, but also journalistically."

I'm sure journalists should not knowingly go into a situation where they will be filming murders & kidnapping of innocent civilians. But in this situation, I think its legit for them to go in with Hamas just like a US reporter embedded with Marines in Fallujah. They knew there would be fighting but not the war crimes.

The question then is: what is the press' responsibility if they are in a situation where murders & killings start being committed? Should they have stopped filming and walked away, or continue to document and publicly say they were there and saw the war crimes, or try to stop it (suicidal?), or essentially do nothing but sell their pics.

GrantDawg

11-09-2023, 07:28 AM

There's a report about how there were embedded journalists with Hamas as they crossed the border and went on their mayhem. The bottom of the article has the response from CNN, AP and Reuters which implies there is some truth to this.

Journalists with Hamas terrorists: Watchdog questions international media's presence (https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byf1woyma#autoplay)

I'm sure journalists should not knowingly go into a situation where they will be filming murders & kidnapping of innocent civilians. But in this situation, I think its legit for them to go in with Hamas just like a US reporter embedded with Marines in Fallujah. They knew there would be fighting but not the war crimes.

The question then is: what is the press' responsibility if they are in a situation where murders & killings start being committed? Should they have stopped filming and walked away, or continue to document and publicly say they were there and saw the war crimes, or try to stop it (suicidal?), or essentially do nothing but sell their pics.
Journalist have such a tight-rope to walk in these situations. Recording history is important, and you only get the chance to cover something like this if you don't betray whoever is allowing you to follow them. It is a legitimate question of "where is the line?" I think in this case they could probably fairly say by the time it became apparent the level of criminal acts that were occurring they would have put themselves in real danger to try to sound a warning. Not to mention that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Alarms throughout the region were already going off. The Israeli military were caught with their pants down. They were just completely and shockingly unprepared.

Edward64

11-09-2023, 07:34 AM

I guess this is one way to get collateral damage.

Honestly, WTF are those civilians standing behind the shooter like that for? Click on the Watch on YT.

<iframe width="947" height="533" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZWFArtdx_js" title="Palestinian gunmen fire at Israeli forces in West Bank's Jenin | AFP" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

GrantDawg

11-09-2023, 07:53 AM

I guess this is one way to get collateral damage.

Honestly, WTF are those civilians standing behind the shooter like that for?
The reason you think. So when the IDF fire back they can report the "Israel open fired on innocent protestors."

Edward64

11-09-2023, 08:05 AM

The reason you think. So when the IDF fire back they can report the "Israel open fired on innocent protestors."

Is it a human shield war crime when it’s voluntary participation?

RainMaker

11-09-2023, 02:00 PM

I guess this is a crux of our disagreement. One of the key drivers of this mess is Hamas, even pre-Oct 7. It has everything to do with Hamas.

Unfortunately, the not-Hamas Palestinians are being impacted by Hamas. If Hamas stops for real (in a fantasy world), then travel will free up more.

This is called collective punishment. It is a war crime and the justification Bin Laden used. I feel it's wrong, but I understand that's not the prevailing sentiment by people like you.

Jordan borders West Bank? There are Palestinians in West Bank? There is Hamas (and PA) in West Bank?

Hamas has very little presence in the West Bank. Why would any Palestinian need to leave? They have nothing to do with this current conflict.

So when talking about Israel creating a "prison" where Palestinians can't come and go, need to toss in Jordan and Egypt into the equation. And why those countries restrict travel into and through their territory.

Again, why do they have to leave? Why is it acceptable to displace people to create an ethnostate? And why is it the responsibility of another country to take on millions of refugees forced out of their home for that reason? If anything, we should be the one dealing with the refugees since we're the one's footing the bill for the cleansing.

Yes, I understand taking hostages for trade. But I'll ask again, why children & grandmas? And why continue to keep them, easy enough to release them to UNRWA. (Well, not anymore but certainly in the past 2-3 weeks).

I'm guessing they just grab whoever they can. The children and grandmas make better stories for the Israelis to tell. And they don't release them because they are using them to trade for Palestinian hostages. I'm guessing Hamas would be more than happy to do a hostage swap.

RainMaker

11-09-2023, 02:31 PM

No I don't because I was against the bombing campaign to begin with. I just don't believe Jews drink the blood of babies. You seem to believe every piece of propaganda Hamas puts out.

What propoganda? No one is hiding what's happening. Heck, Israel just came out bragging today that they killed 20,000 people in Gaza. You either find that acceptable or you don't.

RainMaker

11-09-2023, 02:40 PM

Journalist have such a tight-rope to walk in these situations. Recording history is important, and you only get the chance to cover something like this if you don't betray whoever is allowing you to follow them. It is a legitimate question of "where is the line?" I think in this case they could probably fairly say by the time it became apparent the level of criminal acts that were occurring they would have put themselves in real danger to try to sound a warning. Not to mention that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Alarms throughout the region were already going off. The Israeli military were caught with their pants down. They were just completely and shockingly unprepared.

That report comes from an Israel backed pressure group. I think every news outlet mentioned has vehemently denied the accusations being made.

This seems like pushback for the criticism they've gotten for executing journalists. There was a CPJ report that showed this being the deadliest month for journalists since they started recording that data.

NobodyHere

11-09-2023, 02:42 PM

I'm guessing they just grab whoever they can. The children and grandmas make better stories for the Israelis to tell.

Hamas took children and grandmas and killed their families so Israelis could teller better stories?

Huh?

RainMaker

11-09-2023, 02:52 PM

Hamas took children and grandmas and killed their families so Israelis could teller better stories?

Huh?

No, I'm saying people are going to be more sympathetic to children and grandmas being taken hostage. Same reason why Palestinians highlight the dead children in the bombings and not the 50-year-old fisherman.

Pretty sure Hamas will take whoever they can get hostage. There was a push for years by them to take military members hostage because they'd get better swaps.

RainMaker

11-09-2023, 04:24 PM

So tell me again, why does Hamas have children & grandma's as hostages?

I guess we may have a more official answer. They offered them up for a 5-day ceasefire. It was rejected.

Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say)

GrantDawg

11-09-2023, 04:28 PM

Biden just announced the 4 hour daily pauses along with two separate corridors set up to help people flee the area. He says they have gotten up to 100+ trucks a day in aid coming in with the hope to have that number at 150 trucks a day soon.
I guess that is something, but so much more is needed.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Edward64

11-09-2023, 06:03 PM

Hamas has very little presence in the West Bank. Why would any Palestinian need to leave? They have nothing to do with this current conflict.
It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison (e.g. the tangent) when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

Again, why do they have to leave? Why is it acceptable to displace people to create an ethnostate? And why is it the responsibility of another country to take on millions of refugees forced out of their home for that reason? If anything, we should be the one dealing with the refugees since we're the one's footing the bill for the cleansing.

I'll just copy-and-paste from above. Maybe it'll get through this third time.

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

I'm guessing they just grab whoever they can. The children and grandmas make better stories for the Israelis to tell. And they don't release them because they are using them to trade for Palestinian hostages. I'm guessing Hamas would be more than happy to do a hostage swap.
And I guess you're okay with that.

Different worlds, different value system.

BTW, I trust we have concluded that Hamas does use human shields now.

RainMaker

11-09-2023, 06:30 PM

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison (e.g. the tangent) when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

They are migrating South. Again, why should civilians be forced from their homes and corralled into an even smaller concentration camp? How is this acceptable to any human being?

And what do you mean Arab brothers? Is this some segregation fetish where you have to live among the same skin color? Why support ethnostates? A stretch of Gaza is connected to Egypt. That's the only country that could possibly take them (and it's a lot to ask a poor country to take 2 million refugees). There is no way to access the West Bank (Israel would never allow this anyway), Jordan, or any other "brothers".

And even if there was a path to some magical country you think is connected to Gaza, why should civilians be forced from their homes?

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

It's in fucking Israel. Why would another country not connected to that land have any responsibility for it? It's like imprisoning everyone in the state of Washington behind a wall, putting a naval blockade on them, blowing up their airports, and then blaming France for not taking those people in.

Again, why should they be forced from their homes again? Why the support for apartheid and segregation? Rhodesia is dead man.

GrantDawg

11-09-2023, 06:52 PM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Palestinian Authority has told the Biden administration that it is open to a governance role in post-Hamas Gaza if the United States commits to a full-fledged two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. <a href="https://t.co/t1cmj7aJC5">https://t.co/t1cmj7aJC5</a></p>— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) <a href="https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1722773615698198938?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 10, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Edward64

11-09-2023, 07:13 PM

They are migrating South. Again, why should civilians be forced from their homes and corralled into an even smaller concentration camp? How is this acceptable to any human being?

Just so we are not conflating stuff, let me clearly restate. I said civilians should go south of the Gaza strip (e.g. still within the strip). To answer your question specifically on "why should they", the answer is because it's safer in the southern part of the strip.

War to civilians is not acceptable but it is a reality, has happened before and will continue to happen, and is a result of sequence of events. I blame Hamas for initiating this on Oct 7 and I blame Israel for seemingly willing to accept higher collateral damage to get to Hamas.

And what do you mean Arab brothers? Is this some segregation fetish where you have to live among the same skin color? Why support ethnostates?.
Er, no? No idea where or why you brought this up. I'll assume its back to your race/racist baiting as that is your modus operandi.

I'm not talking about ethnostates. You brought it up. I'm talking about "countries" as they exist now, the realities on the ground, and having to control borders to prevent Hamas/radicals from killing their people.

A stretch of Gaza is connected to Egypt. That's the only country that could possibly take them (and it's a lot to ask a poor country to take 2 million refugees). There is no way to access the West Bank (Israel would never allow this anyway), Jordan, or any other "brothers".
Yes, Israel imposes a lot of restrictions on Gaza-to-West Bank and vice versa. Egypt imposes a lot of restrictions on Gaza-to-Egypt. Jordan imposes a lot of restrictions on West Bank-to-Jorday. What's the common reason here?

And even if there was a path to some magical country you think is connected to Gaza, why should civilians be forced from their homes?
For the 4th time, I did not say Gazans should be forced from Gaza into "some magical country". It was you that pulled us into that tangent. See below quote, just easier to copy and paste.

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

It's in fucking Israel. Why would another country not connected to that land have any responsibility for it? It's like imprisoning everyone in the state of Washington behind a wall, putting a naval blockade on them, blowing up their airports, and then blaming France for not taking those people in.
I'm not saying Egypt or Jordan have any responsibility to Gaza & West Bank. I'm saying they don't want to have any responsibility for Gaza & West Bank. Hence, they are willing participants in greatly constraining movement into/through their territory. In other words, the prison that you attribute to only Israel should also include Egypt & Jordan.

Again, why should they be forced from their homes again? Why the support for apartheid and segregation? Rhodesia is dead man.
For the 5th time ...

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.