I don't like that line of thought at all -- at least the part in bold. It would be a bold wolf move to criticize one of their own when he had a lot of votes on him the day before. But EagleFan is bold enough to try that, IMO.

But thinking of EF, we should probably try to find out if we think we weer v/v/v last night or v/v/w or v/w/w even. I need to get some work done before I can devote myself to finishing the work hoops did documenting all the vote changes, though.

Danny- is nightfall available?

I don't feel like you "lathumed" me into a long post. But when you ask for more details on the thought process I can either give them or clam up. In this case, I chose to give them.

Pass, I can finish the vote change stuff this morning. I just figured if there was conversation going on here and now I would take part in it rather than going back into the old posts again.

That makes total sense, and follows my own thinking, that if there was a conversation here, I might as well take part now, and catch up on my work later. :)

I just don't know what to make of this. You stand by your vote for him for reasons you can't share, but you're not going to actively encourage others to vote for him, and you've actually questioned those who voted for him along with you.

You'd think that if whatever secret knowledge it is that you have makes you believe that voting off PB would be good for the village, then you'd want the rest of the village to join you in voting for him. This luke-warm "I'm voting for him but do what you want" is puzzling.

What I'm trying to illuminate is the Needies' thought process. Why would they criticize a top vote getter? Doing so makes a case (a weak one, but one) for him being a regular patient. If he is a regular patient why would they do that and possibly give us a bit more information? Either because he's really a Needie, as you posit, or because they want us to focus on PurdueBrad for some reason.

It just strikes me as odd that they wouldn't criticize elsewhere, and try to limit what we have to work with.

I have a good guess as to what is going on with Lathum. Essentially imagine that he has acquired a piece of information that does not tell him that PB is bad, but gives him perhaps 50/50 odds that PB versus another player is bad. Therefore, he's targeting his vote on those good odds, while watching to see what the rest of us do. He can't say for sure that it's the right vote, in that case, but is a better possibility than a random target.

Addendum to my previous post: I also think EF needs to be checked out. After no real scrutiny came to anyone we arrested last game, criticizing a wolf might buy that same security. PLUS, not voting today allows him not to have to give any voting data to be scrutinized. I'm not saying vote him, somebody with some sort of ability should check him out.

Ahh.. I see. But that line of thinking also leaves him quite a bit of wiggle room if he's actually a wolf doing a gutsy move. If PB comes back good, he can say "Well I wasn't totally sure.. and never told anyone to vote with me."

And I am very, very afraid of that happening. Although Danny's post about not getting back to him makes me think, from a meta-gaming standpoint, that Lathum is likely good as well.

I'm not voting a nightfall even if everyone else does. I think there can be some discussion today and I'm interested in seeing how much of a runaway people make this. I actually am very eager to see how people play this one.

I agree that your death is going to answer some questions, but I haven't liked how this run away has gone. I'm just going to see how people play it I guess.

PB, can you quote "Danny's post" or are you talking about something Lathum posted that he says is from Danny?

c'mon Clap, you gotta realize there is more to it then that.


Huh?

This stinks to me, wolves do analysis? Last I checked the wolves know who the patients are and really don't need to be dependant on analysis.

Alan, what are your thoughts on PB accepting his death, asking for Nightfall, etc? Does it skew more villager or wolf to you?

#877

No way I vote nightfall on Day 2

Which I think is going to be the hallmark of this game. Everyone having a private role they can't discuss is going to lead to a lot of this. I don't think anyone should feel compelled to follow his vote, perhaps someone else will have been led to a hunch last night.

FWIW, I've gotten questions about different things from lots of people, so from a meta gaming standpoint, that doesn't mean anything.

My thoughts on him haven't really changed much from yesterday afternoon late. I asked him questions, he answered them and the most important thing to me about yesterday was even though he made some moves that I felt were pointless, I didn't necessarily see an agenda there as I did with others (even if that was mistaken on my part).

He just is continuing that today, he seems like he doesn't have much more that he is going to say beyond what I asked him yesterday. Whether that is because he has a villager role that was instructed that he can't tell anyone of his role, or any information from actions that he did.. or it could be because he is a wolf feeling that is the best way off the hook.

I guess if he is a wolf, I just haven't seen it yet. Of course I've been wrong before, I'm just having a tough time swallowing how easy it has been for others to just accept it though.

PurdueBrad, rather than just accepting your fate so blindly, it would be nice to hear some analysis from you. Who are you going to vote today?

it is day 2 - the common sense rules do say that if lathum is alive tomorrow we should vote him anyways hmm?

I gotta lot of shit last night for arguing to stay alive during baby bath time (which just so happens to be from 6:30-7:00 CST, middle of hockey game, middle of deadline) that I'm just not putting that effort in again. I laid all my cards that I'm allowed to lay on the table all ready.

Also, side note Alan, if I came off snippy at all, the above may also be why.

u bathe the baby for an hour? that is trez wierd!

well 30 min is wierd too :)

Hey Autumn, my vote should still be pretty obvious from last night but that'll only throw one more person on my heap so right now I'll probably just vote for somebody that is already on me to try to avoid adding to the human pile on.

I also think if you looked above at two of my posts, I laid out all the analysis I have. Telle-suspicious, Martin D's reasoning for voting for me sounded of wolf setting up a defense for later, EF needs looked at, and I think there has to be a wolf somewhere in that first run on me.

why so cut and dry?

What if I am alive tomorrow and there is no night kill?

What then?

No, the wife is a lunatic and it's these freaking process it doesn't need to be (particularly during the Pens game). GUH, don't get me started.

Heh, yeah, like when I asked you if there was a 'mechanic' role. :p

Oh, and I may return to my standard vote as well because I'm usually the stubborn/tunnel-visioned one of the two of us, not him, and I'm getting that feeling a bit here.

Time to check your math ;-)

sorry, i failed to put a ;) in that post above.

twas a joke man.

I don't know what to make of all this

PB, that's not the best idea. Personally, I'm interested in making this so that it's not a runaway, and I think Alan is also. At this point, however, I'm not very sure who to vote for to try to get this to be a two-person race. You could really help the village out by picking someone, and giving some reason for it, other than, "well it's my standard vote"

Okay, I'll commit to one of the following three:

Telle- As I've stated again and again, the moves to seemingly protect ntn, particularly on day 1, struck me as odd.

Martin D- The explanation for his vote, of all the votes I got, seemed to already set forth a defense for being wrong.

Hoopsguy- Showing a bit of tunnel-vision here that I don't normally catch from him. We ARE always on opposite teams, which means that I should probably vote him. And he jumped on quick in the run that I'm convinced has a wolf pushing it.

So it'll be one of those three Pass.

Corrected/clarified a bit.

Well PB, I stated numerous times why I didn't want to vote for ntn. I personally think it's shitty to vote for someone just because you don't like their playing style. So that left you and EagleFan. I didn't feel good about the case against him.. it seemed to me like people were using his playing around as an excuse to vote for him and that seemed like a good way for wolves to hide votes. So that just left you. And yeah I do think you were the unfortunate victim of a random run at that point.. but you were also as good a target as anyone else.

Which is why I don't fault your vote Telle, just on day 1 the defense of anybody, regardless of reason, doesn't make much sense.

Telle, who are you going to vote for today?

Oops, hit the button too soon. But if he had come out bad, then you just tied your rope to an unknown entity that then screws you for the short remainder of your game. That's all. So your vote for me, I don't mind.

Honestly, there's no need to start a pity party for ntn. I don't think he gets voted for on Day 1 more often than anyone else.

Out for lunch duty. Should stop by later.

Concur on NTN - I would guess he lasts longer, on average, in WW games than just about any other player out there.

PB, when you get back can you explain why you think that I have "tunnel vision" today? I think I've laid out my thought processes, on both Days 1 and 2, as explicitly as anyone.

I would understand that you don't like where my Day 2 vote is compared to Day 1, when I was actually in a position of defending you compared to EF/NTN (thought there was a run to protect one of those two) but I don't get the "tunnel vision" comment at all.

I wasn't defending ntn.. I was just against the reason that people were using for voting for him. I know there are games where I'm quiet.. mainly because of some mental health issues that sometimes make it difficult for me to interact with others (irony of bringing that up in this game...). So it kind of felt to me like if he's not welcome because he's often quiet, then maybe I wouldn't be welcome either when I'm not feeling my best. So it touched on a personal note for me.

It's interesting that no other votes have come out so far today. I'm inclined to follow Lathum's lead, in one sense. My other thoughts noted above make me wonder if we shouldn't be pursuing EagleFan, and whether this criticism was meant as cover for him.

I honestly don't know. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to lynch PurdueBrad.. because otherwise we'll just be debating the Lathum vs PB thing for who knows how long. But at the same time I don't wan to just hop on a bandwagon.

Passacaglia.. any reason for all your vote hopping yesterday? EagleFan said that he was just messing around with the whole "being crazy" theme, but you never offered up an explanation of your actions.

Thanks for doing this, PB. So you're not looking for people who voted for ntn -- in fact, you're looking exclusively at people who voted to SAVE ntn?

The focus on PB has been due to Lathum's early vote on him, not because EF was blocked from voting. Unless Lathum is a wolf, the wolves could not have known when they submitted their action on EF that Lathum would come after PB right after results were published.

Or am I missing something in the above point?

I think if people are deadset on lynching PurdueBrad, I'll go along with the day 1 vote idea again. I'll just introduce another candidate.

Vote Eaglefan

Maybe this got corrected, but the last vote count from Danny I see last night as Poli voting both Abe and Telle. I think that should be just Telle.

In my case, I took no action on NTN one way or the other. I just left my vote on EF all day. The act of leaving a vote there could potentially be construed multiple ways, I suppose.

Yes, it's just Telle, I forgot to remove Abe's name from the list.

I'm not saying people are voting Purdue becuase EagleFan was a Needie target, no.

But I am saying that EagleFan, Purdue and NTN were the three top targets. One was lynched and proven good. The Needies then chose to attack one of the other two. Why did they choose to do that?

Purdue is a target right now bcuase of Lathum, yes. But he would have been high on the talk list today anyway, along with EagleFan, for being a remaining contender from yesterday.

awwww.

he's welcome and you're welcome. it's just sometimes in games where he has been bad recently or hasn't been bad in a while it's at least a topic of conversation.

but i think frequently he gets a pass on D1, as does Chief on D1-Mondays, and probably a few other people as well.

I don't mean to say that your vote was made with the express attempt to save him, just that the people in PB's list all put votes on a top candidate who was not ntn, which had an effect of helping him live.

Anyway, the one that struck me the most in PB's list (and his reason) was Telle. So Telle goes all out defending a villager, and that strikes you as bad?

What if Telle wasn't necessarily defending ntn when she was pointing the conversation at PB yesterday?

Why does Telle sound apologetic to PB in discussion directly to him as if understanding she was wrong, yet still say he would be a good choice?

but don't you think looking at your reasoning then that maybe PB isn't a wolf? Why would the wolves be so obvious as to lynch one of the 3, make the other one unable to vote, and thus essentially point us right back at the 3rd? It's like...too easy.

If anything I might argue that EF is the wolf and that by silencing him the wolves are hoping to point the finger at PB. Not that I think this is necessarily true, but maybe it's as true as the idea that PB could be a wolf.

It just seems too "first level thinking" easy that PB is the wolf then. And knowing our crafty wolves they're probably at least on "2nd level" and misdirecting things.

This is where not being able to discuss roles makes things very difficult, because we have no way of group-analyzing Lathum's experience that he can't share with us.

In a way I think it might be an early indication of a limitation of this game that I don't like - because you're essentially forcing everyone to play as islands and stifling group-think and discussion.

and that's probably my longest WW-post in several games

I don't think it's stifling group-think and discussion. You guys are getting plenty of discussion out of it :). It's different though, I admit.

lol

i'm not bitching already or anything - jury's still out on it. i'm just commenting that it's making things...different

That's exactly what I'm saying DT, that the attack on EagleFan would seem mostly like to result in more scrutiny on PB, and not on EagleFan. I'm not sure what other motivation for attacking him there would be.

Yeah, that's what I was going for. Hopefully in the end everyone has fun and has an interesting experience.

I'm not understanding this. How do I sound apologetic? And what was I wrong about?

Just the tone of your post this morning, you sounded apologetic when responding directly to PB. Maybe I'm reading more into things here. I didn't vote for you afterall, I voted for Eaglefan.. Just an observation I noticed.

I'm guessing that Lathum has some information that perhaps pins it between Purdue and another being bad, or that at least gives him a greater than average chance that Purdue is bad. However, my thinking above makes me doubt that he is. I'm going to vote EagleFan at this point unless we get some further analysis, or unless the voting makes me doubt myself.

Vote EAGLEFAN

Apologetic about what? Voting for him? I was just explaining why I voted for him. And based on the little bit we've heard from Lathum today, it looks like I may have lucked out with a good Day 1 vote.

based on clap and my being on the same page with our thinking. very open to change.

UNVOTE PB
VOTE EAGLEFAN

fixed - autumn not clap

As of post #972:

3 - PurdueBrad - Latham (790), hoopsguy (822), dubb (846)
3 - EagleFan - Alan T (951), Autumn (969), DaddyTorgo (971)

So what's the case against EagleFan? Just that the wolves might have targeted him in order to move discussion away from him? Wouldn't it actually put him more in the spotlight as a person of interest?

Maybe I read more into your post then you intended. The way you used the word unfortunate in regards to the run on PurdueBrad, it made me wonder if you believed in your day 1 vote any more. Which is why I asked you afterward who you were voting for today. Your response to that also didn't seem too sure, and listed PB to understand what is going on between Lathum/PB.

It just got me wondering if your quick flip yesterday wasn't necessarily to protect ntn as your words were saying, but moreso to protect Eaglefan.

I've been wrong before though, so possibly am here too. Like I said before I'm having problems where I am not getting strong wolf vibes from people so far this game, so this might be a reach. I don't expect people to follow me, it seems likely that PurdueBrad is dying today, in which we will still learn something from.

A lot of band wagon jumpers against the person who can't even defend himself with a self defense vote. Strikes me as suspicious.

Ah, I see. I labeled the run on PB as unfortunate because of the way it went down. He had one vote, and then simultaneously two others voted on him pretty randomly. So it wasn't a "real" run.. it was just something kind of weird that happened.

I probably will vote vote for PurdueBrad today because I don't like leaving lingering issues. But I was just hoping we'd get more discussion (as we have) rather than us all just jumping on the bandwagon right away.

How is it suspicious?

EF is probably the only candidate that I would consider moving to, short of someone coming out and saying "Player X is a wolf! I scanned him last night!".

I think I've documented the reasons behind this already. I thought EF was the right scan last night. I can see the seer coming here today, being dismayed by a run on another player, and trying to figure out what the heck is going on when he knows that he has caught a wolf on N1. So he would want to make sure to paint EF as non-trusted, in the event he (seer) ends up dead sometime soon. If he can get momentum behind an EF vote, then his scan choice for tomorrow is either PB or Lathum, depending on how he reads today's events.

Anyway, that is where I'm at right now - trying to figure out if we have an actual seer scan on one of the two people with votes right now.

Danny, when you arrive - can you tell us the order of actions in terms of seer scan versus wolf attack/convert?

Figure I may as well ask, as the second major topic I'm chewing on today is the "no kill" last night.

Well if you're right hoops then haven't you just given away the seer as being one of just a couple of people? Why would you be announcing such a theory like that when there's already some momentum behind an EF vote and probably no need to go saying "Hey everybody! The seer is probably voting for EF!"?

Attacking the guy with his hands tied behind his back. If it's not suspicious it's a least a freaking panzy ass thing to do.

I'm used to being called names in WW games by now :)

Doesn't really affect my desire to vote for you. I'm pretty sure that I'm staying here today.

Kill/protect/convert would come first and then the seer scan.

I this whole movement towards PB and EF is strange. EF much stranger than PB. I'm frankly having trouble wrapping my head around this game, simply as I've been busy so far and so much has happened. I'm inclined to vote for neither PB nor EF. Though if that's what it boils down to I'd go PB before EF. Instead I'm going to go in a completely different direction.

Vote hoopsguy

I feel like he's been on the wolf side of steering as opposed to human.

Who would you suggest the people voting for you move their votes to?

Well, me being right would depend on a couple of things happening:
1.) The seer actually agreed with me on the right person to scan last night
2.) They have logged in by now
3.) They have put their vote down already

We've got six votes in the books out of 20 players. We have a few players who have yet to show up today.

I also think that the wolves are naturally on high alert for anyone voting for them, especially when a viable (?) candidate already exists with PurdueBrad.

Anyway, if I have ended up putting the seer in harms way more than they already were with that post, I'm at least a little sorry for doing it.

The one part of the game that I can control is my own vote, and I'm doing the best that I can each day to make it a good one. I've got a day right now that I'm not sure I have a good handle on, and I figure that the majority of the people who are reading this have interests that are aligned with my own. So I'm hoping that posting my thoughts helps create a positive dynamic for me (and others) in reaching a good decision.

Cut EF a break - Philadelphia fans don't have a very big vocabulary and it is hard to express their thoughts with the nuance that you might expect from other fanbases :)

Hey, thought about this on lunch duty. This does NOT mean that Lathum is in on it. We had 3 people up yesterday and lynched one. That means that either EF or I would be up today. By criticizing EF, the wolves remove him from the conversation by getting him some cred (see how arrested people were treated last game), that leaves me with the most heat. They got a bonus by getting Lathum to go after me. But WHY me.

A- I hit on something at some point yesterday that is a wolf

B- EF is a wolf and they're trying to shift it

HOLY CRAP, felt like I had 20 votes on me already!

Nope, not this time around. I'm trying pretty hard to figure out today's votes and I've got a day (today) with more time to spend in-thread than I have for awhile. If people want to follow me, that is fine but I'm just trying to make a good decision with less information than many others, I expect.

However, in a meta-game sense I guess it is good to know that I'm not giving off tells like Passacaglia was last game since you are guessing wrong here :)

One more point on posting "seer" thoughts, and I'm sure that PB especially can attest to this.

If I'm a wolf and think that I've spotted the seer, or narrowed it down to 1-2 players, then I'm keeping that to myself and just offing them at night. I've done this multiple times; it is absolutely a pattern. The last thing, as a wolf, that I would want to do is clue in a bodyguard about who he should be protecting from me.

So, I'm now arguing (I guess) that the fact that I'm publicly talking about potential seer actions is some kind of indicator of my villager-ness.

Just caught up and all I really have to say is I'm glad this didn't turn into an all-day runaway on PB, and that this post struck me oddly.


Because of..


I just remember how I went about dealing with unknown rules/mechanics as a wolf and Pass' post struck me. Dont know if it means anything but it's something I wanted to bring up.

Actually, I felt that the villager response to people being arrested was pretty appropriate -- basically neutral, recognizing that they could still be either one.

As for WHY you, if your thought is that EF is a wolf, doesn't that simply make you the easiest option?

So I'm trying to figure out - how in the heck are there five people with more posts in this thread than me? And several of them with a ton more posts? :eek::eek::eek:

:rant:

:p

Heh, I'm half mock offended. I must admit I was thinking similar thoughts when Lathum said I was acting like when I was a wolf in some other game -- just goes to prove to you all that my villager play is just like my wolf play. Therefore, whenever any of you guys think I'm acting like a wolf, I'm actually a villager. :)

You are ahead of me in posts though. :thumbsup:

And that was one of my points.

I'm not sure how to respond, because I don't know what you're trying to say about my post. I do think you missed some context, though. Yes, I knew we all had roles, but the discussion with hoops was about whether or not two of the roles could have had an overlap such that Lathum's role is similar to ntn's.

Is that what you're trying to say in Point B? I guess I see that. So is Point A based on the assumption that EF is not a wolf?