I'm pretty stunned that Danny was the night kill. If I had to guess, I suspect that the wolves may have had their order in early. Only other thought is that they had a strong reason to suspect Danny had a role?

Nothing else really makes a ton of sense to me at first glance.

Jeez, I go play WoW for a few hours and come back to this.

I would have paid to see the look on Telles face during that run.

I think Danny was targeted to try and cast suspicion on the people who voted him.

err, didn't realize everyone but me had moved off Danny

OK, with two regular party goers out of the way the number of remaining "vanillas" is pretty darn small.

6 stated villagers
4 stated wolves
1 listed potential convert

18 starting player - 11 roles - 2 vanilla = 5 vanilla villagers left

Scooby = EF
Shaggy = PB
Abe = claimed vanilla (under voting duress)

Wow, what a wild Day 1. As I haven't seen a counter-reveal or claim of being "werewolfed", I should've followed the PB Postulate. I'll try and whip up a vote flow before Monday as penance.

I'm out for the night. Sorry for my part in making today a screwed up day.

Geez I leave the thread two hours before deadline and it all goes crazy. Interesting Day one guys.

Just so you guys know, I'm still going to find a way to have the most posts during this game.

Can someone that's not dead (I was going to ask you followup questions, Danny, but you had to go and get killed!) explain why there was an exodus off Abe without a reveal? People were just feeling like he was a villager based on his posts, or what?

I'm not saying I think he's a great candidate or anything, but all that post-reveal movement was very curious. I just want to know what was motivating people to switch to Danny or ultimately Telle. I'll go back and read through it again, but on first quick skim I didn't see much.

Well the idea of that Kwhit vote was that the top few people looked like we should sparethem. Kwhit had a vote so I thought why not him....(note the others with one vote were me (not suicidal so not voting there), RA and Telle had just had a vote on her. ) Of course it would have helped if I saw the post kwhit made about not being around.

Jackal, I can only answer from my perspective that once I believed PB on his reveal (well, to be fair I'm only about 80% there) that I started to reconsider the villager/villager possibility with how the votes played out today.

I would have liked to have another 10-15 minutes to wind through it in my head - make it more of a "head" play than a "gut" play - but at the end I figured why not see if we got lucky with some late movement spearheaded by a guy (PB) that I was giving some trust. I knew that I had no info one way or the other on Abe.

I think there is a ton of value in the seer scanning Abe if that has not been done already. I think we'll learn enough about PB in terms of counter-reveal. If there is no counter by Monday morning I'll believe him the rest of the way. But we need to know about Abe so we can assign proper value to the vote analysis from Day 1.

I agree with Hoops, if Abe comes back villager than we can assume the late movers onto Telle for the most part are villagers. I mean. Why risk that move if it is villager/ villager?

Are we sure all of the roles listed are in the game? Is that a given? It seems oddly lucky that we lost 2 vanilla villagers with so many roles listed.

Wow. And I was around for almost the whole day, and yet I still had no idea this would turn out this way.

Night actions have been processed. I am curious to know if PB saw anything. I'm with hoops. I am most of the way there, and this won't really provide any corroboration, but I would like to know who he chose to follow.

I am guessing it was not Danny.

I didn't see anything. I tried to follow Abe because I thought that somebody might take a shot at him after surviving the lynch. Unfortunately I was targeted by the werewolf role in this game.

What is interesting, and disappointing, is that my back-up/conditional if Abe died in lynch was to follow Danny. I would've had somebody had that happened. I guess I should've let Abe get lynched. :-(

Ugh. Still problems with Google Chrome.


I went to ntn because he was in the thread and didn't feel really good about voting for Telle because she wasn't available. At least ntn could defend himself. I went back to Telle because there wasn't enough movement and it was really chaotic at the end.


Popped in the thread to see what happened and popped back out. I'm still not entirely sure we weren't played in the last hour, but I would guess that the "real" Shaggy would've countered PB's claims by now.


Are we sure we lost 2 vanilla villagers? Couldn't a wolf be revealed as a villager and vice versa? I'm not stating that this is the case, but it is a possibility. That being said, I think two villagers were killed off...whether they were vanilla or not may be another story.

And now I'm having problems with IE. What the hell? I'm getting errors on pages and the page is saying that it's completely loaded and all I get is the ad at the top. :puzzled:

Leave it to a Raiders fan to break the cursing rule... :eek: :D

I don't think we've had a game in a long time where death didn't result in full disclosure. I think we can honestly believe they were both vanilla villagers.

I agree that we basically got lucky with two vanilla villagers (rather than hitting something worse for us) but I do also think they were just vanilla villagers.

(73) Lathum votes Chief Rum (CR 1)
(79) Lathum unvotes Chief Rum, votes EagleFan (EF 1) * invalid vote
(87) Lathum unvoted EagleFan, votes Chief Rum (CR 1)
(88) EagleFan votes Raiders Army (CR 1, RA 1)
(96) Abe Sargent votes Lathum (CR 1, RA 1, Lathum 1)
(99) Abe Sargent unvotes Lathum (CR 1, RA 1)
(100) Abe Sargent votes Lathum (CR 1, RA, 1, Lathum 1)
(121) hoopsguy votes Abe Sargent (CR 1, RA 1, Lathum 1, AS 1)
(128) Abe Sargent unvotes Lathum, votes hoopsguy (CR 1, RA 1, AS 1, hoops 1)
(136) Coffee Warlord votes KWhit (CR 1, RA 1, AS 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1)
(140) JAG votes PurdueBrad (CR 1, RA 1, AS 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, PB 1)
(141) PurdueBrad votes Abe Sargent (AS 2, CR 1, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, PB 1)
(153) Chief Rum votes GoldenEagle (AS 2, CR 1, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, PB 1, GE 1)
(157) MartinD votes PurdueBrad (AS 2, PB 2, CR 1, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, GE 1)
(158) ntndeacon votes Raiders Army (AS 2, PB 2, RA 2, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, GE 1)
(159) Raiders Army votes ntndeacon (AS 2, PB 2, RA 2, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, GE 1, ntn 1)
(162) J23 votes PurdueBrad (PB 3, AS 2, RA 2, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, GE 1, ntn 1)
(163) The Jackal votes Abe Sargent (PB 3, AS 3, RA 2, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, GE 1, ntn 1)
(164) lerriuqs votes Raiders Army (PB 3, AS 3, RA 3, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, GE 1, ntn 1)
(170) Chief Rum unvotes GoldenEagle, votes Abe Sargent (AS 4, PB 3, RA 3, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(185) Danny votes PurdueBrad (AS 4, PB 4, RA 3, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(192) Telle votes PurdueBrad (PB 5, AS 4, RA 3, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(195) ntndeacon unvotes Raiders Army, votes PurdueBrad (PB 6, AS 4, RA 2, CR 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(198) Lathum unvotes Chief Rum, votes Abe Sargent (PB 6, AS 5, RA 2, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(199) lerriuqs unvotes Raiders Army, votes Abe Sargent (PB 6, AS 6, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(203) PurdueBrad unvotes Abe Sargent (PB 6, AS 5, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(210) GoldenEagle votes Abe Sargent (PB 6, AS 6, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(224) PurdueBrad votes Danny (PB 6, AS 6, RA 1, hoops 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1, Danny 1)
(229) Abe Sargent unvotes hoopsguy, votes Danny (PB 6, AS 6, Danny 2, RA 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(233) Lathum unvotes Abe Sargent, votes Danny (PB 6, AS 5, Danny 3, RA 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(256) Coffee Warlord unvotes KWhit, votes Abe Sargent (PB 6, AS 6, Danny 3, RA 1, ntn 1)
(282) KWhit votes PurdueBrad (PB 7, AS 6, Danny 3, RA 1, ntn 1)
(286) Raiders Army unvotes ntndeacon, votes PurdueBrad (PB 8, AS 6, Danny 3, RA 1)
(290) Danny unvotes PurdueBrad (PB 7, AS 6, Danny 3, RA 1)
(292) Danny votes Abe Sargent (PB 7, AS 7, Danny 3, RA 1)
(306) Raiders Army unvotes PurdueBrad (AS 7, PB 6, Danny 3, RA 1)
(307) ntndeacon unvotes PurdueBrad (AS 7, PB 5, Danny 3, RA 1)
(318) Raiders Army votes Abe Sargent (AS 8, PB 5, Danny 3, RA 1)
(324) J23 unvotes PurdueBrad (AS 8, PB 4, Danny 3, RA 1)
(344) PurdueBrad unvotes Danny (AS 8, PB 4, Danny 2, RA 1)
(346) PurdueBrad votes Telle (AS 8, PB 4, Danny 2, RA 1, Telle 1)
(354) ntndeacon votes KWhit (AS 8, PB 4, Danny 2, RA 1, Telle 1, KWhit 1)
(361) Danny unvotes Abe Sargent, votes Telle (AS 7, PB 4, Danny 2, Telle 2, RA 1, KWhit 1)
(364) Raiders Army unvotes Abe Sargent, votes Telle (AS 6, PB 4, Telle 3, Danny 2, RA 1, KWhit 1)
(370) Abe Sargent unvotes Danny, votes Telle (AS, 6, PB 4, Telle 4, Danny 1, RA 1, KWhit 1)
(372) Raiders Army unvotes Telle, votes ntndeacon (AS 6, PB 4, Telle 3, Danny 1, RA 1, KWhit 1, ntn 1)
(377) ntndeacon unvotes KWhit, votes Telle (AS 6, PB 4, Telle 4, Danny 1, RA 1, ntn 1)
(382) Raiders Army unvotes ntndeacon, votes Telle (AS 6, Telle 5, PB 4, Danny 1, RA 1)
(385) hoopsguy unvotes Abe Sargent, votes Telle (Telle 6, AS, 5, PB 4, Danny 1, RA 1)
(387) Coffee Warlord unvotes Abe Sargent, votes Telle (Telle 7, AS 4. PB 4, Danny 1, RA 1)
(389) deadline
(390) J23 votes Telle * vote late, not counted


Final vote count:
Telle 7 - PurdueBrad (346), Danny(361), Abe (370), ntndeacon (377), Raiders Army (382), hoopsguy (385), Coffee Warlord (387)
PurdueBrad 4 - JAG (140), MartinD (157), Telle (192), KWhit (282)
Abe Sargent 4 - The Jackal (163), Chief Rum (170), Lerruiqs (199), GoldenEagle (210)
Raiders Army 1 - EagleFan (88)
Danny 1 - Lathum (233)

I have PB in blue as there has been no counter reveal as of yet but I am not %100 sold.

I know any role like Shaggy can be a game breaker for the wolves so would it be too big of a stretch for them to try to lure that person into revealing if one of their own was about to be lynched anyway.

Not saying that PB is a wolf, just not entirely cleared in my eyes yet.

A few interesting events in the voting:

If Abe Sargent is a wolf:
- lerriuqs looks better with his vote in post 199 to bring Abe into a tie
- GoldenEagle looks better with his vote in post 210 to bring Abe back into a tie
- Lathum looks not as good with his 233 vote moving off Abe and onto Danny
- hoopsguy and Coffee Warlord need watched with their late vote switch from Abe to Telle (I can't see both of them as bad in this case, why would they risk two wolves popping up on the radar)


There are more things in there but I want to look them over a bit more.

For what it is worth, I'm very glad that there is such a good voting recap posted. I'm just not sure how to make use of it quite yet.

I think Abe needs to end up dead to learn much from it.

I'm not happy to say this but I do agree. This is the part of WW that I hate, but it is the right play. Plus, if I'm wrong about him, then I could really screw us over by people trusting him too. Sorry Abe.

Aren't we better off leaving it to the seer? If he's a wolf, (barring us being really unlucky and him being the non-scannable one), problem solved.

I was the most likely seer target last night. If you don;t hear anything during the day, why push it? If you kill me, then you wasted that night's seer and you get less info when/if the seer reveals.

Heh, I was posting this as you were, but the point stands. Also, just rememebr that PB was slutted last night, so the seer was free guaranteed, to get a scan in.

I thought PB was the seer?

No, he's the witness.

Remember, he thought I was the seer?

The seer would then have to reveal or hope that people pick up on clues. If we take him out tomorrow it leaves nothing to doubt.

I actually would have hoped the seer would have scanned someone other than Abe. Conventional wisdom says that we would be aiming for him day two after the way day one went so why not roll the dice by going elsewhere.

OK, I was confused.

TBH I am not a fan of waiting on the seer. That could be a few days. By lynching Abe today we can begin to unwrap the voting, and the bottom line is if we have to lynch someone it seems like we learn the most from him.

See, I just don;t get that. I mean, if you want to vote me off today, why not just vote me off yesterday? That doesn't even make sense to me. Either you believe I'm a villager or not. Vote that way.

I think our games are becoming too predictable. They seem to be regularly unfolding thusly:


Keep votes close on Day One.
Vote everyone on Day One that was close for the next few days
Then try to play catch up because the Village gave the wolves a few days to hide and kill without any pressure.

Self pity will get you nowhere...

We had so much movement on day one and much of it centers around you. There is only one way to know if you are good or not and it involves lynching you. If you are a villager than you take one for the team so that we can learn enough to hopefully turn the tide.

What exactly would you rather we do? Make this another day one vote and just randomly chose people?

Personally I think you are the cunning at this point. Especially with the play of... "if I got scanned and the seer isn't saying to lynch me than I must be good."

Granted, I usually suck at being the seer, but I woulda scanned him for that very reason. Obviously you don't reveal if he's clean, but you can at least find out for sure and try and push back a bit when if the voting goes down that road.

And as a side note, I just re-read PB's ability: He's not a seer as such, he's a "watch the guy and if he gets attacked, you find out who got him". So if I'm reading that right, he doesn't scan, he just watches and finds out something if that person is the night kill target. Just a quick heads up for everyone, since we've been referring to him as a one shot seer, which he's not.

FTR: In the last game there were 2 day one candidates. The second candidate not only wasn't a lynch on day 2 but lasted until the final day of the game.

And aren't you supposed to be talking like Scooby? :)

To add: The game before that there were 3 day one candidates. The day one lynch was a villager and one of the other two were lynch one day two due to the way the vote played out on day one and was a wolf.

I never said must. Don;t put words in my mouth. Don't put quotes around something I didn't say. I simply said it makes sense to wait. That's all I said. That's it. Not, I "must".


I simply said it doesn't make sense to not kill someone on one day only to kill him the next, just to get information about that day. If you wanted the info, kill me off the previous day, no sense keeping me around.

You're a better player than that. You honestly can't believe what you just typed. If you and Telle were reversed we would be looking to learn from her lynch today. That's the idea of learning from the voting pattern.

Right now you are really starting to sound like a cornered wolf to be honest.

What day one lynch has ever been because "we wanted to kill that person off"?

Day one is always random, thus is the nature of the game. Day two is when you try to learn from what happened day one.

I like how:

1). You don;t respond to my point about your mischaracterization of what you said and:
2). You apparently claim to know what I actually believe. Now you are not just putting words on my forum post, but in my mind as well. That is, and i use this word with care, STUPID. You don;t know what I do or do not believe, so don;t you dare claim to.

Frankly, I play the same way as a wolf or not as a wolf. I'm happy about that.

Also, if Abe Sargent is a wolf:

I think CR looks good from his vote 170 breaking a 3 way tie to put Abe ahead.

Now, what if Abe ends up a villager?

Not without a serious effort to keep myself alive, you sheep voters. :D

Keep playing the self pity as much as you want. There are simple facts at play.

1) You were a part of the day one vote.
2) There was a ton of movement to save the person who was the leadng vote getter, who you were second to.
3) Once that movement started thee was secondary movement to save you.
4) We learn a LOT once we know exactly what your "role" is.


Can you argue against ANY of these? Yet you don't want to address those facts. You just want to play the pity game.

I've been in that exact spot more times that I would like to have been. Does it stink? Yes, but it's how the game works.

You would rather that we waste another day with what will be nothing more than another day one vote instead of trying to learn from what happened with all the movement (and even those who did not move) yesterday. That is either selfish or wolfish.

Hey, EF, I tend to lean the same way as you on this for the "in-game" stuff, but it seems clear to me that Abe is saying you have misrepresented him somehow or been a little careless in how you put forth his opinions, because the anger he is responding with sounds an awful lot what I was going through with KWhit.

So maybe take a step back a little and take a look at the above posts to see if that is true?

I mean, I am for the vote Abe move, but I see nothing good by continuing this back and forth in the way it has developed.

I've said my part on the issue, which is and should be a non-issue. I am a little tired of people taking this as more than it is, IT'S A GAME.

I posted a rundown of the day one votes and then my opinion about what should be our next step. He acts like it's a personal attack and starts with the self pity. At that point it's on him.

I apologize to everyone else for this becoming whatever it became but that is where I draw the line. I was somehow part of something that got blown WAY out of proportion in one person's eyes.

I generally agree (again) with what you're saying; I'm just noting that maybe you need to be a little more sensitive right now to whatever he's saying. Maybe you think he's making a big deal out of nothing, and that might very well be the case, but fact is, he's obviousdly very upset about it, so why throw gas on the fire. Cease and desist, man, and we'll all vote it out tomorrow.

Like yeah man, we all need to just head back to the Mystery Machine, grab some Scooby Snacks for munchies, lock the doors, roll up the windows, and just find a way to relax. Like, let's get out of here Scoobs.