John Stockton has gone mad.

dude is out of his damn mind https://t.co/dMqiaCbAUX pic.twitter.com/zZq7tU05rq

— Brian Floyd (@BrianMFloyd) January 23, 2022

Not a surprise, he was apearing in a high profile Antivaxx documentary last Winter, boasting of having done "significant amounts of research" (and being irritated that his children don't believe his ramblings over official guidance)

-----------


Joe Rogan's Friends Assemble in D.C. to Do Something They Say Isn't an Anti-Vax Rally

Usefull as a field guide to (mostly) american Antivaxxers. Plus, a Kwame Brown sighting.

I hope they at least sleep badly at night.

These people haven't, in general, changed. What's changed is that we care what they think about these issues now.

I can't eat ketchup or hot sauce right now and the world is a darker place.

Aaron Rodgers stopped trying to walk a fine line and came out as fully anti-vax and at least borderline Q.

lol

power ranking the top 10 aaron rodgers nicknames

1. klan marino
2. rush lambeau
3 throw rogan
4. prager unitas
5. Brietbart Starr
6. QB giuliani
7. OANy romo
8. tuckrule carlson
9. Qaaron rodgers
10. kurt d wormer

— Ben Pfeifer (@bjpf_) January 23, 2022

Winning is the only thing. So I expect the Packers will make nice and keep him around.

But there has to be a growing "Even another Super Bowl isn't worth spending another second with that asshole" sentiment in that building.

Am I missing something entirely? Is Rodgers a QAnon guy? I thought his outbursts were limited to the concept of forced vaccination. And since many pro athletes are very, very involved in knowing exactly what they put into their bodies, his concerns seemed honest to me. He seems convinced that he could have a bad reaction.

But if he's running around like the guy with the Bravehart getup, then I withdraw my concern that he's getting a bad rap here. Though calling someone a Klan member (the Pfeifer guy, whoever he is) seems like an entirely different breed of awful if there's no real justification.

He takes that horse paste so I don't really think this is about concerns over what is going into his body.

His girlfriend also advocates eating clay because a cab driver told her it works.

It's the usual pile-on. I haven't seen any quotes from Rodgers putting him in the Q camp.

There's a difficulty in certain circles - or a lack of interest in doing it possibly - in differentiating between degrees of opposition to the approved line. Often one is either in agreement with the vaccine mandates and all that entails, or they are considered to be 'pro-virus' 'Q-positive', and so on.

I think it's important to note that the veterinary pastes are a different form of the ivermectin that can be proscribed to humans.

It's also important to note that while ivermectin is considered a "wonder drug" in places where there are a lot of parasitic infections, it isn't considered a valid way to avoid COVID. However, the tablets proscribed to humans are very safe.

Calling something that has saved millions of human lives "horse paste" doesn't help advance the discussion any more than calling someone a Klan member who has never advocated Klan behavior.

I hadn't heard about the eating clay thing, but I looked it up, and it's not like she's digging around in the garden for it. It seems to fall into the general class of strange supplement stuff that probably doesn't hurt you. And 22-year-old actresses generally tend to be into strange stuff (older ones, too, thinking of Gwyneth Paltrow making a career out of it).

I'm not trying to defend Rodgers, especially over the anti-vaccination stuff. I'm just not cool with this trend of connecting people we don't agree with on one subject to all sorts of other evil.

Usually those that question the election results and fall into the anti-vax CDC conspiracy group are Q followers or at least Q-adjacent. Which is why I said borderline Q.

He held back his true feelings on vaccinations and tried to spin himself not as antivax but his recent statement showed there was more there. I wouldn't be surprised at all that there's more to his thoughts on the election than simply questioning 81 million votes as well.

Yeah, the 81 million line hints that he's a big lie guy at a minimum.

COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)
 

There’s also a group that are fully Q but know that that will make them judged if they truly let their true feelings out so they couch their statements to be able to disassociate when questioned. You can see that many will cut those a break or benefit of the doubt if they don’t explicitly espouse a doctrine exactly as promoted online or on oan.

Watch the movie US

It’s exactly this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

“When the president of the United States says, ‘This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated,’ it’s because him and his constituents"

How do you interpret that as "limited to the concept of forced vaccination"? I mean it's so poorly stated that it could be interpreted many ways, but none of them are rooted in a concern for his personal health.

So is the vaccine that has been administered to billions.

Your argument here is that he's concerned about what he puts in his body. The same guy who is taking Ivermectin and Hydrochlorique. Two drugs with side effects that have zero scientific evidence they help in combating COVID. Doesn't sound like someone who is concerned about what he puts into his body.

The horse paste joke is because few reputable doctors will prescribe the drug for COVID. So the anti-vaxx crowd resorted to buying the horse version. Rodgers probably has enough money to get it legitimately, but who knows?


If someone literally wants to eat dirt, go for it. But you don't get to argue that they are careful with what they put into their body.


Of course you are. You came up with a ridiculous excuse as to why he wouldn't take it. An excuse he doesn't need because he's been very clear as to what he feels works (random drugs touted by Joe Rogan and vitamins) and what doesn't (the vaccine).

After reading some more, especially what Rodgers has been quoted as saying, I disagree with you (including the dirt/clay confusion, not that what his new girlfriend said she did seven years ago is relevant here, nor am I interested in a discussion about the claimed health benefits of this type of clay).

Given the millions whose lives have been saved by Ivermectin, I'm not certain I understand why it's a joking matter. I didn't think when you posted that you were intending it as a joke. It's very important for those who are trying to obtain Ivermectin that they understand the difference between the veterinary form and the pills approved for human use.

While it's not approved for COVID use in the US, that is still being studied (the small 2020 study from Bangladesh is still referenced on the NCBI site) and Rodgers did take it when sick with COVID and while symptomatic. He said the symptoms reduced. So I can understand why he feels it worked for him, even though the evidence is weak at this point.

Some of the stuff Rodgers is spreading about the vaccines (the infertility argument), I would call him out on, since that's not based on anything other than speculation. The vaccines have saved a lot of lives. I think he's being sincere, even though I disagree with a lot of what he says.

For some people it's literally black or white, no grey. So I wouldn't bother.

I'm sure Ivermectin has saved lives and if this thread was about roundworm, it would be highly relevant. But if someone is at a point where they are going to feed stores to buy the stuff with a horse on the wrapper, they're probably too far gone to listen to any rational medical advice.


I'm sure he did take it when he had COVID and I'm sure he did recover. I drank Diet Mountain Dew and played video games when I had the flu a couple years ago and recovered. Correlation does not imply causation.

I guarantee you that if there was any evidence that Ivermectic worked to cure or prevent COVID, the giant pharmaceutical company that makes it would have let us all know by now. Instead, they are begging people to not take it.


What he is spreading is misinformation. Acting like some Vitamin C and Zinc pills immunizes you from COVID. What he has said is factually incorrect and has no scientific evidence to back it up. Not to mention dangerous to the populace and increases the spread of a deadly virus.

But I do agree that he is sincere in what he believes.

Ivermectin caught on because one study showed in a lab setting that a higher than approved use dosage of Ivermectin kills the Covid 19 virus. I'm sure there are countless other things we could find that kills Covid in a lab setting as well, but there's no evidence it works within the human body with the same effectiveness when given an approved dosage.

These people don't trust science unless it aligns with their agenda or preconceived beliefs. In this case they believe there's a global conspiracy to keep Covid drugs away from the public to push the dangerous vaccines onto us.

The numbers are black and white. You can look up data points as to the effectiveness of the vaccine. You can read actual scientific studies on the effectiveness of Ivermectin, HCQ, Vitamin C, and others he touted to compare it to the vaccine.

THE VITAMIN C AND D HAVE TO BE TAKEN WITH ZINC!!!

I'm so tired of this shit.

re: 400M N95 masks for free.

Trying to understand the rationale for this. About 250M or so adults. So we are talking about 2 masks each. I guess this is just for the omicron spike (which will probably be on a downhill when the masks get to us).

Don't know how much it costs to take it out of the stockpile, but the $ may be better spent by somehow making more N95 masks readily available at lower costs. Work with a company that has direct manufacturing capacity and churn those out.

I think 40-60% of the US will be living with and using masks for the near-mid future ... and there'll probably be another mutation later this year.

I got a box of N95s from work when the pandemic started. I've had to wear one a couple of times on the Covid floors of our hospital and they're currently sitting in my vehicle glove box in case someone forgets a mask. They are not fun to wear at all. I'd definitely suck it up if I were at risk, but for now I'm just relying on double layer cloth masks and my vaccines+booster.

I had a box from before this started for woodworking. They really are miserable to wear and I don't know how doctors and nurses pull it off for 8+ hour shifts. 20 minutes in a grocery store was enough for me.

After I got vaccinated I just went down to a bandana but I usually keep good distance from people in public and have avoided crowded areas.

Appearing to do everything possible.

Millions of lives have been saved by Ivermectin for parasitic diseases. That seems an odd thing to bring up in the COVID thread. I think that when Aaron Rodgers and all of us are talking about Ivermectin in the COVID thread, we're talking about his stance on taking it for COVID, right?

And, yes, the science for the COVID pandemic isn't going to be fully settled for years. But Ivermectin (and Hydroxychloroquine and a number of other drugs) do not appear to have statistically significant effects on COVID in the vast majority of studies. Of course, most professional athletes who are in great physical shape, are going to have limited difficulties with a disease that significantly affects those with comorbidities worst so, anecdotally, most athletes will be fine.*

*Though, if you traffic in public health, you're going to want to make policies based on overall populations not just small pockets or small unique samples.

SI

I, for one, am glad I'm able to always bask in the aura of one of my social and moral betters who is always ready to remind us that said wisdom is only surpassed by a greater humility.

SI

Funny you should say that. Definitely no shortage of moral betters in FOFC. Oblivious hypocrisy.

Yeah. I know. The one point that Rodgers makes that resonates (and there's some irony there) is that healthy, unemotional debate can advance knowledge. So one would hope that with intelligent people (and I think Rodgers is intelligent), engaging them from the perspective that they are trying to help and can add to the debate will allow us to better establish what needs further study and what is just misinformation.

I've come to the conclusion, and this is recent with me, maybe only the last few years, that the overwhelming majority of people feel very strongly that they would like to make the world a better place. What we call moral values as human beings - we have more in common than not. Life is not a superhero movie. Or a television "news" show.

However... we have as many different ways of expressing those values as there are individuals. And those expressions are more a function of the intersection of thousands of variables that we don't like to change or want to change or maybe cannot change.

It helps me to recognize that no matter how hard I try, there's no way (unless I'm not around to assess it) that many of the thoughts I feel strongly about today I might feel very differently about ten years from now. Or that "history", whatever that is, won't judge 2022 as harshly in 2042 as we judge 2002 today.

So the Ivermectin thing - it's an incredibly valuable drug, maybe one of the most valuable drugs ever developed, but it is not a substitute for the vaccines. Reviewing some of the newer studies on the NCBI site, it's still being investigated as a potential treatment, though I haven't seen anything on prevention (and I'd rather just not get COVID, period). Given the number and recency of these studies, I think the medical community still thinks it's worth considering as treatment in some cases because it has so few side-effects. So the studies continue.

I've read there is a robust Duke study going on the human version of Ivermectin (not the horse version).

I do think there are covidiots taking the horse version (and bleach and etc.). But don't think Rodgers was talking about that. Horse version definitely no-no.

If they were trying to help, wouldn't they tell people to choose the path that has mountains of scientific evidence backing it?

Also, how can you have a scientific debate with someone who doesn't believe in scientific evidence? Their beliefs are based on a completely different criteria.

Cattle version of Ivermectin is the way to go. It’s a pour-on. Dump some in your hair and don’t shower for a few days so you know it worked. Given how concentrated it is, you won’t need much. I used to buy it by the gallon!

Belief is a terribly tricky concept. We tend to confirm as "scientific" what we want to believe.

It seems to me that Rodgers would sincerely say the same thing about his loyal opposition.

Our goal can and should be to be non-political about this sort of thing. None of us meets that standard. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

People just think differently. There are people who believe in scientific evidence and have been convinced by it to become flat earthers, for crying out loud. This is why it's important to engage with people of all views. As much for our benefits as theirs. As repulsive as it may seem to us at times, we can learn a lot from the Aaron Rodgers of the world.

Ok, so who are the 100+ professional athletes that have died during a game/competition or practice over the last 2 years? Can he name any? I can't remember any for this rumor to even start. Maybe during sports I don't follow as closely?

There have been pro athletes to pass away, but not during action and many that died from COVID had finished their careers.

This is just vague gibberish people use when they don't have the courage to say what they believe.

You either believe the billions of data points we have from countries, medical facilities, doctors, researchers, scientists, and organizations mean something, or you don't.

People entrenched into conspiracy theories are nearly impossible to engage. If everyone who can disprove your theory is in on the conspiracy, it only strengthens your resolve when provided evidence from those sources. Their logic is self-sealing.

There are thousands of people a day in this country dying because they are so committed to this conspiracy. Millions that are so entrenched that they are willing to put their friends and families lives at risk over it. I think it's narcissistic to believe that we can convince those people with some spirited debate.

Reality isn't that monolithic. There are a lot of people like you describe, but it sounds to me like you may not have actually read my last post that you quoted. People legitimately trying to find answers come to widely differing points of view based on the same facts. Convincing them largely isn't the point. There's value in the discussions/debate even if nobody leaves it with a different opinion. A greater understanding of why we disagree can be gained. It can help people on both sides of whatever issue keep the 'opposition' humanized. The mental value in challenging our own POV. Etc. Changing people's minds rarely happens even outside of conspiracy theorists - and most of what Rodgers has said falls well outside of that anyway - but that doesn't and shouldn't stop us from engaging.

But I know why we disagree. He doesn't believe the statistics that have been presented by the government and scientific community. He thinks there is a vast global conspiracy to hide the real cure because it is a generic drug. These are things he has said publicly.

Maybe if there wasn't such a political spin on everything, one could engage on these issues. You talk about Belief like it's some sort of religious truth. Studies are often messy. Even messier when a government appointee is presenting them. Faith and science don't play well together. Scientists have to be skeptics when they're analyzing a hypothesis because what they're trying to do is present a confidence that two concepts are not part of the same data set.

Rodgers has made the point that spirited debate and science are constants. He's absolutely right about that. We're only two years into COVID - medical researchers are still learning, and what they've learned so far is because their research proposals for human subjects have been fast-tracked.

We miss the opportunity to find out what his objections are when we vilify him, call him a heretic, make fun of his girlfriend's past, reduce his arguments to simple extreme statements and then attack those like he's an idiot. When we talk about "horse paste" and accuse him of being a Klan member.

Why would he engage with someone like that, then? Why would anyone engage in a real debate with someone who does that? And thus a chance to address what we're fairly certain isn't true (his Ivermectin conspiracy remarks) by pointing, calmly, to the studies that have already been written.

Perhaps, even, there are things you Believe that haven't been shown at all. If you've been relying on government appointees and the media rather than looking at studies, it's possible you've come to some conclusions that are just as dangerous as anyone else's. I don't know. You don't present yourself as someone who could have a calm, rational conversation about all of this. You sound just as entrenched as the extreme controversy Believers on the other side.

It's hard to talk about this stuff once it gets so political and so religious. Good advice on COVID has changed rapidly, and will continue to change. We're all in this together. I think the media has done far more harm than good with its continual hot takes and Beliefs. Their clicks come from division and hate, and that's exactly what we don't need right now.

I somewhat agree with this BUT there's a great many on both sides of the extreme that premeditatedly have said publicly or privately in encrypted ways that the end goal of debate is a 'fight or war or revolution'. These are dangerous groups and dangerous tides and I think the hard part is figuring out the line of people who are dabbling in crazy but keep a foot in moderation and those who dabble in moderation (vocally at times [I would argue a willingness to lie which I find ironic]) yet are preparing for the impending fight. That's why those who showed up at 1/6 with weapons and those who fought at the capital must be treated with the harshest of penalties. those who were merely swept up in the push to move towards the big building because 'tourism' might get a lesser slap on the hand. Yes some will be caught in both nets and that's a price one pays for being around their flock of feathers.

Just for the record


Walensky said:

WHO WERE VACCINATED

That's right. So the math (I think) is

1.2M vaccinated x .003% Deaths x 75%. So a miniscule number relatively speaking.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that liquid bleach administered via intramuscular injection would also destroy COVID*, but it's not a super great idea.


Meanwhile, there are 3 vaccines with billions of administered doses being monitored by multiple health authorities for statistically significant adverse events and what has been found is that they are statistically safer than ivermectin even when ivermectin is administered to humans for its intended use.

To use an analogy appropriate for this forum, you are head coach of an NFL team down by 7 points with 2 minutes left in the game. I give you your choice of QB. You may have Tom Brady (Pfizer COVID vaccine) or LeBron James (Ivermectin). Which do you choose?

*though would unlikely be as effective as Pfizer's new antiviral drug

It feels like you're asserting that it's just as legitimate to believe what Aaron Rodgers says about the science behind COVID as, say, Anthony Fauci.

If that's not what you're asserting, maybe you should clarify.

We've missed nothing. Aaron Rodgers is a HOF NFL QB with ready access at any time to spread his message on national media both friendly (Rogan, FOX, OAN) and unfriendly.

He has been given ample opportunity to explain his position, he has taken that opportunity, and his assertions have been dissected and disproven by data, facts, and logic. Only then did the name-calling come out.

Risk Factors for Severe COVID-19 Outcomes Among Persons Aged ≥18 Years Who Completed a Primary COVID-19 Vaccination Series — 465 Health Care Facilities, United States, December 2020–October 2021 | MMWR

Here's the study in question. It's pretty clear it's only a study of vaccinated people and obviously before Omicron made up almost 100% of new cases, as is the case today in the US. Eight out of 1.2 million who didn't have four or more co-morbidities and were vaccinated died. Of the 1.2 million, 189 became seriously ill, and none of those 189 didn't share at least one co-morbidity.

This is the list of co-morbidities: Age 65 or older, overweight or obese, diabetes mellitus, immunosuppression (includes HIV, cancer, organ transplant drugs, immunosuppressive therapy, immunodeficiency), chronic kidney disease, chronic neurologic disease (includes Dementia), chronic cardiac disease, chronic pulmonary disease (includes Asthma) and chronic liver disease.

"Adjusted odds ratios (aOR) of severe COVID-19 outcomes after primary vaccination were higher among persons aged ≥65 years (aOR = 3.22; 95% CI = 1.81–5.74), and those with immunosuppression (aOR = 1.91; 95% CI = 1.37–2.66), pulmonary disease (aOR = 1.69; 95% CI = 1.31–2.18), liver disease (aOR = 1.68; 95% CI = 1.12–2.52), chronic kidney disease (aOR = 1.61; 95% CI = 1.19–2.19), neurologic disease (aOR = 1.54; 95% CI = 1.06–2.25), diabetes (aOR = 1.47; 95% CI = 1.14–1.89), or cardiac disease (aOR = 1.44; 95% CI = 1.01–2.06) (Figure 1). Compared with persons who received the Janssen vaccine, Pfizer-BioNTech recipients had similar odds of severe outcomes (aOR = 0.70; 95% CI = 0.39–1.26), whereas recipients of the Moderna vaccine had lower odds (aOR = 0.56; 95% CI = 0.32–0.98). Odds of severe outcomes did not differ significantly by sex, race/ethnicity, time since primary vaccination, or whether infection occurred during the period of Delta variant predominance. Previous COVID-19 illness was associated with reduced odds of severe outcomes (aOR = 0.27; 95% CI = 0.09–0.84)."

We do not seem to have a similar large-scale study that would answer the question Rodgers and others have wrongly attributed to the entire population (including unvaccinated).

However.... only 2,246 of the 1.23 million vaccinated people got COVID. So now we're looking at 8.4% of those who got COVID and were vaccinated getting seriously ill (again, all with at least one co-morbidity, though that could mean the only risk was that they were over 65).

What we see with Omicron is a huge number of infections in those who are vaccinated.

A similar-scale study in our new Omicron world seems important - I'm sure it's being completed at this point. But I don't like the assertions from the government when we're kinda talking apples and oranges here. It's a legitimate topic to discuss and the goal should be to convince people it's in their own best interest to get vaccinated.

BNT162b2 (Pfizer–Biontech) mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine Against Omicron-Related Hospital and Emergency Department Admission in a Large US Health System: A Test-Negative Design by Sara Y. Tartof, Jeff M. Slezak, Laura Puzniak, Vennis Hong, Fagen Xie, Bradley K. Ackerson, Srinivas R. Valluri, Luis Jodar, John M. McLaughlin :: SSRN

Here's a Pfizer study showing that the vaccine provides only partial protection against Omicron. The flow-chart (click on the link) indicates about half of the emergency department visits related to Omicron are in vaccinated people.

(they caution that this study has not yet seen peer review)

So, Pfizer is working on a vaccine candidate specifically tailored to Omicron.

Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate Study to Evaluate Omicron-Based COVID-19 Vaccine in Adults 18 to 55 Years of Age | Pfizer

Like flu shots, it's possible (and I have no idea - apples and oranges again) that there might be new, tailored boosters every year or even less. That's going to be a very hard sell to people. Right now, about 52% of the adult population gets annual flu shots. I don't. Perhaps I should. I should definitely read more.

We've had a large number of people who are also willfully engaging in bad faith arguments to just try and muddle the actual discussion you're talking about. We've seen this as a very popular topic with everything from smoking to climate change to COVID. Some do it for personal enrichment, some do it because they like the attention, some do it for personal reasons ranging from ignorance to narcissism, and some just like to watch the world burn.

I strongly disagree with what seems to be your sentiment that engaging in that sort of rhetoric is some harmless sophist exercise. It has literally - not "literally" like coachspeak misspeak "literally" - but literally - in the dictionary definition - cost millions of lives over the last century.

That can't be brushed aside when we're talking about this. How do you propose to provide scrutiny because that's part of providing a large platform to someone like Rodgers (or Joe Rogan or whoever)?

SI

This is really stretching the word "partial". Every vaccine we have for every disease provides "partial" protection.

The study you linked to shows that those who are boosted have a vaccine effectiveness of 89%. That is an absolutely remarkable number and a miracle of modern medicine. If everyone received the vaccine, the virus would likely cease to exist (barring some massive genetic mutation).

I get that you're trying to muddy the water, but you're just providing links to studies that prove how well the vaccine works.

No we didn't. He explained what his objections were to a national audience. From blood clots to infertility to exceptionally rare allergic reactions. Many experts in the field proceeded to address his objections and show they are not merited using actual data we have from scientific studies.


We aren't talking about things I believe that haven't been shown at all. What I believe is backed up by countless data points and scientific studies (even the studies you posted). There is no political or religious slant to that. Just as there is no slant to when I take an antibiotic when I have an infection.

I don't really know how you can debate someone who believes all the evidence is a vast global conspiracy. It's why conspiracy theorists are hard to debate. Everyone who provides evidence to the contrary is part of the conspiracy or in Rodgers case, trying to "cancel" him.

As a result of the @US_FDA's abrupt decision to remove the EUAs for two monoclonal antibodies, monoclonal antibody treatment sites will be closed until further notice. Full press release is below. pic.twitter.com/RGeWTPwxCs

— Florida Dept. of Health (@HealthyFla) January 25, 2022

For those keeping track, anti-vax logic is we can't trust the fully authorized vaccines because there isn't enough evidence. BUT actually, no, the government should authorize any treatment whatsoever unless there is a clinical study saying that it is harmful.

This isn't even about medicine anymore. It's an assault on the idea of using logic itself.

dola:

Even better. Apparently, there is just a concession on the Right that Republicans will benefit from COVID treatments more than Democrats.

The FDA is trying to make it so that people in Florida die of Covid. They’ll kill people to harm Republicans. Steel yourselves for the evil that is being unleashed. https://t.co/hP55vngVbh

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) January 25, 2022

And why might the members of the political party who are more likely to be vaccinated have less need for extreme COVID treatments? I guess we'll never know.

The only way to keep the outrage against THEM (and fear of THEM) going is to oppose everything they do. It doesn't matter if it's logical or prudent or even falls within what has historically been a conservative position, agreeing means that you have something in common with evil, and that cannot stand.

It's also part of that whole lack of imagination where you accuse your "enemies" of that horrible thing you've already done. Remember when Jared Kushner killed off COVID testing because it was killing more blue state voters?

How Jared Kushner’s Secret Testing Plan “Went Poof Into Thin Air� | Vanity Fair

SI

Until today, I didn't realize that this was a thing... but I'm also not at all shocked.

My neighbor and her husband both got COVID. Instead of going to her doctor, she saw a fee-based doctor virtually and was prescribed Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin. The doctor also told them "Make sure you don't go to the hospital. Don't let them take you to the hospital."

My immediate thought was... so this is what all those doctors that were writing hundreds of Oxycontin prescriptions a day are doing now.

Ivermectin frenzy: the advocates, anti-vaxxers and telehealth companies driving demand | Coronavirus | The Guardian

Those are some of the very same people (or members of the same organisations) that stand on podiums and decry the money grabbing of *insert anybody in pharma or medicine down to the nurses getting paid extra for administering vaccines on Sundays*.

Has the increased demand on Ivermectin either reduced the supply or increased the cost to people/livestock that need it for its real use? I've never seen that directly addressed in any articles. If so than taking or promoting it for evidence-free, off-label usage isn't a harmless exercise.

Why yes, of course it has:


Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/t...-shortage.html


More:

US horse owners face ivermectin shortage as humans chase unproven Covid ‘cure’ | Coronavirus | The Guardian

Ivermectin is a wonder drug but not for COVID — and misinformation is causing a shortage


People also tend to be more likely to overdose taking stuff 'off-label' (Actual off-label use would still require a doctor to specifically prescribe it along with verbal advise on dosage, which obviously isn't likely to be the case for many getting it via these telemarketing firms or other dodgy methods). And even aside from all that: of course it's inherently dangerous to sell people on what might well be nothing more than a Placebo. Because of course that influences not only their or their environments decision to get vaccinated but also seek proper treatment once ill. Delaying this because you have a 'cure' at home or on the way isn't exactly going to improve the outcome.

I know some feed stores in Wisconsin were stashing the stuff behind the counter and requiring proof you owned an actual horse (or other animal that would use it).

Thanks for that info. I feel like a lot of Ivermectin promoters have framed it as an entirely personal choice, and touted its lifesaving history, while ignoring that any dosage someone takes for unproven covid treatment is actively reducing the supply to those folks/animals who have a proven use for it.

this sounded like a butcher shop the way you described it :(

https://mobile.twitter.com/gorskon/s...41701785890823

Speaking of consequences going much further than 'only' personal choice or Covid. This is NOT about Covid vaccine mandates or Covid vaccines for the figures you see at the head of those movements or the politicians latching onto them.

Also, FOX isn't even bothering to hide it's agenda anymore:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MattGertz...72329172140032

Perfect illustration by the way on muddying the waters with talk of treatments in a vacuum and as a replacement for prevention. Treatments are great ti have but not having them or their respective limitations (availability, effectiveness, timing of when they help vs when people get them) isn't a conspiracy. It's literally bitching about issues that were communicated beforehand.

(Good on the guest doctor, who certainly isn't coming back, for pointing out the obvious)

https://mobile.twitter.com/MattGertz...60372910465033

"Personal choice" (Alex Berenson saying the vaccines should be shelved entirely)

Not a medical ethics person but this sounds right to me. I generally admire someone sticking to his principles but this seems so unnecessarily stubborn. Is this non-vax principle really worth it at death's door? What really is it about "this vaccination" that is keeping you from getting a heart transplant that will very likely prolong your life for X years?

In this particular case, it doesn't seem his anti-vax stance is putting anyone at risk so have at it. The next patient in line might want to write this guy a nice thank you letter.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brigham...et-vaccinated/

It’s mind blowingly idiotic. So the vaccine kills him lets say. Gonna sue anyway dude and if you’re concerned about what you are putting in your body newsflash. You’re going to take about 20 pills a day.

My mother in law is a heart transplant recipient. The amount of meds she takes is insane.

These people are beyond my comprehension.

I certainly don't think its a malicious thing but seems there are a lot of pharmacies refusing to give 4th shots for immune compromised folks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/26/healt...sed/index.html
Seems more of mis-communication (or under communication). I didn't realize pharmacies look for final guidance on State vs CDC. Basically, State websites are not up to date. Hope they get this fixed soon.

I would love to know this families stance on abortion.

Covid has developed stealth technology!

Health officials monitoring new 'stealth Omicron' subvariant

I wonder if my coworker got this one. She started showing symptoms, then she took a test that ended up negative. A week later she took another test that came back positive.

That's so stupid and sensationalist. not you, the article. (It is the NY Post after all)
Tldr version: No, the tests identify every variant/subtype including this one. There's merely a little sort of 'life hack' for labs that is now a little (!) less usefull in positively identifying it as a subtype since this new subtype and Delta give the same 'readout' in the lab looking at the test result while Delta and the original Omicron looked different.
For your coworker a likely scenario is simply that one sample was less well taken or handled for example. Or she just got her symptoms uncharacteristically early in the process of viral load buildup.

The long version:

You'll notice the article very much avoids burdening the reader with any explanation of how or why it's more difficult to detect, yet somehow the danish authorities referenced still quite obviously manage it, seeing they can quantify it's prevalence (65%) and btw also have record case rates, not exactly flying under their radar is this bugger ;)

The answer: It's 'stealth' aspect due to a certain mysterious and unspecified genetical trait has no bearing on tests ability to detect it as SarsCov2 (positive test). It makes it a little harder to identify it as a subtype very quickly with very high certainty but even that is largely a theoretical issue. There's this phenomenon, exclusive to PCR Tests called Spike Gene Target Failure (SGTF) which means that the 'portion' of the PCR Test looking at the Spike Gene comes up negative while the other portions targetting different Genes showing positive.
A PCR Test is essentially a testing series looking at multiple, usually 4 IIRC areas of the genome to make it able to identify the Virus (and only this one) reliably even if there are genetic changes to some areas or, say, certain genomes are better preserved in a sample than others. Even if just 1 shows positive you still know it is SarsCov2.
(Antigen tests work a bit differently in some ways but are also designed to detect all variants)

Now with Delta the Spike Gene portion showed positive, with Omicron it didn't due to a specific mutation: A small area of the S gene is missing (a deletion) in the Spike Gene. This meant that the lab could preliminarily differentiate the 2 quickly rather than waiting for full scale sequencing results. Imagine it usually coming back as PPPN for Omicron but PPPP for Delta.
This new Omicron Subtype, BA.2 for now, does not have this deletion but is otherwise so similar that it is still considered a subtype of Omicron. So now in theory you can't as easily tell if it is Delta or Omicron. In practice however Delta has been getting so rare and declining most everywhere that with more and more of tests showing as PPPP again (and of course a portion of cases getting fully sequenced in the lab, alerting scientists to the new subtype being there) you can still use the SGTF as a proxy to differentiate the difference between Omicron and BA.2.

Denmark did hit a sort of plateau of cases that then took off again after a couple of days, so it seems reasonable to think this has outcompeted the 'normal' Omicron at a time when it was starting to fizzle out there. This may also well mean other countries with different timing will see 2 seperate Omicron waves ...

What is beyond most of our comprehension is the power of the communication tactics that have brought most of these people to this point.

For a professional take on these things 2 Twitter Threads by Scientists regularly explaining these things very well:

��NO! There is no new variant that isn't detectable by PCR��

The a new set of sequences, closely related to #Omicron has been detected & we *absolutely can* detect cases with PCR. What we can't tell as easily is /that they are Omicron or Omicron-like/.https://t.co/5bCKxdv8vF

— Dr Emma Hodcroft (@firefoxx66) December 7, 2021

COVID-19 surveillance, England. The most recent 5 days (to 28 Nov) show an increase in S gene target failure in community testing data. An explainer follows. �� pic.twitter.com/ZBEMEzbpOt

— Nick Davies (@_nickdavies) December 2, 2021

There are a lot of informal indications that many Omicron cases do not fully exhibit in the nasal cavity, so people testing that way might show false negatives, while swabbing the throat would yield an accurate positive test.

Frustrating, as we want to hang a lot of day-to-day functional policy around the value of a negative test.

what's to comprehend. They are stubborn stupid assholes.

For my birthday, instead of presents, I would like you to go out and tell an antimasker or antivaxxer to go to hell.

In lieu of flowers, send flaming bags of dog poop to Joe Rogan and his cadre of snake oil salesmen.

SI

Denmark is opening up!

Hopefully this is causing some people to finally see the benefits of the vaccines.

Robert LaMay, the ex-Washington state trooper who said the governor could “kiss his ass” over the state’s vaccine mandate, has died

He was reportedly battling COVID and unvaccinated pic.twitter.com/HMOmR5wkq0

— philip lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) January 29, 2022

Judging by the first few responses...nah.

Washington trooper who defied state vaccine mandate and told gov to 'kiss my a--' dies from COVID-19 | Fox News

I mean, fuck 'em. They want to be martyrs, let them be martyrs.

I don’t feel owned by his unnecessary death.

I think a more fitting karma would be that he has to eat ALL of the things he made his contestants eat on Fear Factor.

Another mutation that is easier to catch but current vaccines should do the job.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/27/healt...ba2/index.html
And about my comment above about Denmark opening up ...

Neil Young probably knew he would lose out to Rogan but hoped he would start something going. So kudos to Joni Mitchell for joining.

This brings up the question if/when will other "more popular" artists will join the fight. Obviously they'll have to assess the cost/benefit of such a move.

Been saying this whole time Neil Young isn't shit, but if Taylor Swift and a few others jump in they are in real risk of being a platform that has Rogan, Ted Nugent, and Kid Rock as their draws.

Why is Joe Rogan's podcast popular? What is his appeal?

I'm not insinuating any criticism here but I really don't know who the guy is other than hearing about his podcast.

Rogan may have had a standup carerer but the first time i saw him was on the 90s sitcom Newsradio. He was hilarious there as was everyone. That was the first time I saw Stephen Root(Office Space, King of the Hill), Maura Tierney (ER), Khandi ALexander (CSI Miami), Vicki Lewis (Finding Nemo), Andy DIck (Ben Stiller show/Andy Dick show) too.

After that he did Fear Factor forever a survivor like reality show that skipped the voting out and just made people do challenges to tackle their fear...usually things involving heights, vehicles, and eating disgusting animal parts.

I don't know how or why or when he became a rightwing mouthpiece the size of Moreton Downey Jr or Rush Limbaugh. The more obnoxious they are, the more the right follows them seems to be the rule

It's an empowering feeling when you gather that you have it right, and they are suckers and are missing it. That's basically always been the motivation behind conspiracy theories and the psychology at work is what makes stuff like Art Bell popular. It's invigorating to have someone say "you and me, we get it, not like those other people."

That's an awful lot of what's going on with the wave of... skepticism isn't the right word... denialism, maybe. you don't lure someone to that side with logic or information, you lure them there with empowerment and satisfaction. (And that's also why logic and information are rarely useful on helping anyone out of that mindset)

People like Aaron Rodgers, frex, really are convinced "I did my own research" and that feels good to say. It's horseshit, of course, he just skimmed through some crap that supported his predispositions, and ignored stuff from sources he was inclined to ignore. We're all human, we all do it to a degree.

But when you beg someone to join your side, on today's topics of vaccinations and COVID-related points of view, you're all but telling them to trade in "I'm the one who makes the decision" and instead accept "someone else will make the decision for me," and that feels impossibly stupid and dangerous and hard, especially if they've bought in along the way to the notion that the scientists and politicians are not merely wrong about this, but that they have evil or harmful intentions.

This is powerful stuff.

I'm not an expert on Joe Rogan, but have listened now and then... he's a pretty good interviewer, and I think his appeal is partially pandering to the "badass" side, right? Just enough non-conformist stuff to make him a bit edgy, he smokes weed in the studio with Elon Musk and that makes headlines... but he gets Elon Musk into the studio at this point. I think it's a bit like Howard Stern in his prime - Stern was actually a gifted interviewer in my view, but he knew that his schtick required spanking lesbians from time to time to keep it rated R, and that there's a formula for being more widely popular than Fresh Air on public radio.

Rogan gets that, feels like a free spirit, and maybe isn't teflon enough to resist the draw of some of the low-hanging fruit of a conspiracy here and a russian propaganda article there... and so he falls into saying to a huge audience of millions and millions that (paraphrasing) "young healthy people shouldn't get the vaccine, this isn't a risky disease, but the vaccine is risky." Onece a bunch of authority figures line up to try to shout him down, he ends up trapped in this psychology... and predictably, he just goes full on jbmagic here and doubles his bet every next step. He'll bark untruths at the epidemiologist he has on as a guest, he'll go out of his way to find cockeyed sources to back up the side he has now taken.

I don't think he's a genuine right-winger, I think he's a regular guy, an actor, trying professionally to remain interesting and popular and relevant... and that has worked really well for him. Going public two or three steps into this and saying "gee, I really was a dope and didn't know what i was talking about, I'm so glad that some smart people fixed that for me" is counter to that brand, as well as counter to human instincts... so it won't happen. We all dig in facing that situation, and he just gave into strong instincts there.

Not saying he's blameless, but I think the whole thing is pretty understandable. It sucks, because he does have a meaningful effect on views of many listeners, I'm certain... he's almost certainly killed people as a consequence of his decision to be provocative on this.

I've never been a Rogan fan but I did get his appeal. I've described it as the guy that graduated high school a few years ago and still hangs around high schoolers smoking weed, buying beer, and dropping his worldly knowledge. It's cringe to a lot of people, but it strikes a certain cord with others.

I don't believe he's a right winger, but I do think he's seen the grift from others surrounding the MAGA movement and found himself a place firmly within that circle while tossing enough of his non-MAGA followers just enough of a bone to keep them around.

I think some of the anger toward Rogan is misguided. He's just a dumb guy who gets his views from random YouTube videos. This has been the case long before the pandemic. I think people like Carlson are worse because they know the truth but distort it for money.

His views aren't necessarily right-wing, it's just contrarian (which I guess is mostly the entire right-wing movement at this point). Common dumb guy who wants to look smart move. And other dumb people fall for it. There is no doubt his show has led to countless deaths, but I feel the bulk of the blame still goes to the audience who are just acting as a death cult now.

It'll be interesting to see how Spotify handles things. They killed their customer service yesterday to prevent people from cancelling which is likely not a good sign for how things are going. Losing a handful of artists is not going to matter, and music is a loss leader for their service. I don't think they'll ditch Rogan, but I do think it's a pretty big opportunity for competitors to snipe some market share.

Tucker Carlson is 1000x times more dangerous as there are people that watch people like him and Hannity on Fox News and believe they're getting actual news. They're outright inflammatory and keep their audience's attention by keeping them angry. Rogan sells himself as the guy that wants to see things from the other perspective. He is 100% a professional contrarian.

I just want to say that I think this is a very interesting statement.

The #Suffolk County DA arrested two people including the owner of an Amityville pediatric office for selling fake Covid-19 vaccine cards. $220 for adults, $85 for children. Ledgers show they may have made $1.5 million dollars from this illegal scheme #NBC4NY pic.twitter.com/jm0bcOkCeX

— Pei-Sze Cheng (@PeiSzeCheng4NY) January 28, 2022