Going into today I had dubb, saldana, and fouts on top of my list. After reading what has transpired today I'm going to vote for saldana and hope for the best.

Vote Saldana

If we are right then I think Fouts is the next logical target. If not, then dubb must die.

BTW... I believe I was the one who first brought up the multiple-use witness.

Post #449, BEFORE #461

So I don't think it's out of the question the idea could be come up with by either the witness or the non-witness.

I really just don't know what to do. I have a very strong suspicion of another Outlaw, and would LOVE to vote him tonight because I am actually more than 50% sure, like I would be with dubb/saldana. I think I will post my "Théorie Grande" right around midnight tonight, I think, as I will probably be gone in the morning.

I'm just so stuck right now...

Well I will say this is the most confident I've efver been without concrete proof backing me up.

Bottom line is I see things lining up with Dubb and nothing with Saldana. I also question him trying to make me look like an ally to Dubb, I think(hope) I've at the very least made my thoughts clear.

So, you're on the "saldana is an Outlaw" boat? For my benefit, would you mind going through as thoroughly as possible, your reasons?

you interpreted it as "he was trying to get advice on how to use his role"

i interpreted it as "he was trying to subtly suggest to the witness that he should use his role"

as far as post 461, it does appear that i misread your post, but dubb has already admitted that was the inspiration for his statements....just an intersting convenience.

as far as your confidence goes, there really isnt anything else i have to say except i cant recall anyone ever fighting so hard for another person, that was one vote away from a lynch the day before... some of us thought dubb was bad yesterday, i confirmed that, you are fiercely trying to protect him and fighting his fight for him, and then saying that my posts are the basis for your believing him. if this isnt you trying to start a bandwagon, i dont know what is.

I must have missed this, but I just saw it in your post Jeff. I can't believe Saldana would say something stupid like this. I brought it up b/c I have never been the witness, our only seer was dead, and I have enough werewolf experience to ask a serious question and blend it in, which I did by commenting on ALL of the roles. I never really got a good answer to the question which I would have liked, but just thought I would further prove how crazy some of Saldana's points have been.

Seriously, trying to use his voting of Bek early on day 2 after Bek had just outted himself as the duke role, and trying to make it seem like an angry villager. Yes he made a mistake, but no you don't vote him, that is just stupid. Never in this game have I done anything that stupid.

and i took my vote for bek back and admitted that it was stupid...i guess you have never made a mistake in this game either?

I've never said that I've never made a mistake in this game, but I don't think anyone is going to buy the angry villager thing you are playing off man.

I can say I've never once cast a vote for a known, outted villager.

Saldana, I get what you were trying to say. But ths is what I don't get...what does it matter when the witness goes into action? How does it help the outlaws if they use it early? It HURTS them. The outlaws would want him to wait so they have a better shot of killing him first.

RPI:
1: The day after we lost the seer Dubbs was asking about when the witness should be put into action
2: Saldana said the outlaw never entered the building, just ran away when he heard shots. Dub said he saw him enter the building. I find Dubb's description more to what I would expect.
3: Saldana's posts in general. The first one sounded forced, and since he's been VERY much on the offensive, Trying to discredit others rather than proove himself

Like I said, nothing concrete. But I can't find anything against Dubb. I'm hoping another set of eyes does.

You attacking me also makes you look guilty, you should be trying to prove your case not discredit neutrals. What does other people suspecting him for the same reasons Blade, Ardent and I were suspected have to do with this?


Generally you don't initially support the guy you are bandwagoning against.

Just please don't let those eyes be fouts. I can't say it enough how much I believe he is in line with the outlaws.

in response to point 2, so you are saying that the sheriff was waiting INSIDE RPI's house....and then he missed with two shots from INSIDE. yeah...that makes alot more sense than the sheriff waiting outside and firing shots at a shape he saw moving toward the house in the dark.

and for point 3, you are saying i was forced (not sure what that means), and then overly agressive...the only people i have been "trying to discredit" are the outlaw that i saw try to kill RPI and the guy that is trying to railroad me on the outlaw's behalf.

i love the double standard yet again....i say you are helping dubb against me, but dubb has accused fouts numerous times, and he has hardly said anything, but that isnt incriminating.

Argh... I read Dubb's "What Should the Witness Do?" Post for the first time since it was originally posted, and am more confident that is the kind of thing the witness would do... re-reading the whole thread again for more hints, also.

Dubb also, in that same post, suggested we dump the judge -- that is one thing I absolutely can NOT see an Outlaw doing, as the judge was very useful to them. Overall, saldana's votes have been more of "throwing it out there" style, trying to get a bandwagon going on villagers, while dubb's haven't been that same way.

I'm VERY hesistant to vote off the guy who FIRST claimed to be the witness, but as much as it pains me to do so:

Unvote dubb93

Vote saldana

oh yeah, i forgot about Dubb's KNIFE revalation...that would mean that the sheriff missed twice with his gun against a guy that would have had to close into arms reach before he became dangerous. so at less than 3 feet, the sheriff missed 2 shots....oh hell yeah...that makes total sense to me...we should definitely believe dubb's version of the events.

It's narrative not realism. I'd guess the reason a knife and you entering the building would be mentioned is to leave no doubt as to what you were doing. The witness is a 100% accurate role, not a hint role.

What you stated in your initial post leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Heard shots, never entered house, fled.

considering you were the leader of the anti dubb campaign yesterday, i guess i should go put my best suit on to save the undertaker the trouble...you thought he was 100% outlaw 24 hours ago, now you are gonna kill me, who has done nothing wrong....i just dont get it.

This is what put me over the top as well. It's the only thing we have not tainted by today's situation.


Because somethings are more accurate than hunches.

Fouts is not only defending an outlaw but is willing to accept a 1 for 1 in the case that I am the witness(which I am). That is unacceptable for the villagers. We lose 2 villagers before we kill you, then lose another 1 before we have a shot at another outlaw. Not worth it, and I'm not willing to accept it.

"Done nothing wrong" from the "haven't slipped up" point of view, sure.

I'd love to switch my vote back to dubb... please give me the ammo to do so!

Sorry guys, poker party calls. I'll be back later, vote Saldana he's the outlaw. There might not be much evidence of that other than taking my word, but I believe if you look through the thread and compare my actions to his prior to today you will find the answer you need.

Huh? How am I the next target? I say we have a double lynching - saldana and dubb! We guarantee an outlaw.

Dude, I am not defending anyone. As I said, we should you lynch you both.

I'm not following this. I think there are only two outcomes, and that would be the bad one.

BTW, any thought of my changing my vote to saldana went out the window when you accused me Dubb. I am a villager. Now I suspect you more for all the finger pointing. What a fiery way to go down.

Just watching: Umm, when is voting over?

Midnight today.

i dont know what else to say. i hid my ability until it was time to use it imo... you want to use my voting record against me...what did we have to go on in any of those votes but hunches. you had your hunch against him yesterday, and the "how to use my role" post has been up for days...honestly, how many games has dubb played in and he doesnt know how the witness role works?!!! other than that, all he has done is say "saldana is an outlaw, i am the witness"...what proof has he offered against me...none that i can see, but with the help of jeff, he has managed to turn the vote against me. i cant prove i am the witness other than pointing out the flaws in Dubbs story about what happened last night, which i did above.

as far as the point that dubb posted about jailing the judge first, so he must be a villager....i posted about the fact that i am the witness first...so using jeff's logic, i must be the witness.

the only other thing i can point out, is that dubb and jeff have been using my statements as "evidence" against me, but since jeff has been attacking me more than dubb has, dubb hasnt had to defend himself at all, jeff is doing that too, so i have no choice but to keep posting in my own defense, which they then use as more "evidence".

Yeah cause you know, the Outlaws are going to put two necks on the block to extend the life of one for a day.

How is that bad? Either way we get an outlaw. Isn't that what we want?

Um, what we want is to get an Outlaw without killing an innocent. The worse thing that could happen is we kill an innocent tonight and then kill the Outlaw tomorrow. Which is what you want?

If you and dubb are villagers, you have played this weird. You heavily put yourself strongly behind dubb, and then you guys go against the one for one strategy that villagers have used in the past.

I just don't understand how you can back dubb so strongly, unless you actually know what his role is. Very strange.

Either way, I don't care which is lynched, we got us an outlaw!

Yeah. I'm pretty confident and the votes not decided yet. And Saldana posts a ton of stuff that makes no sense and I can't control myself to not argue with him :).

I'm more surpised other's are not agreeing. I'm begging people to come up with something against Dubb and no one has yet. If someone does, and it's convincing, I'll switch.

No way both jeff & dubb are Outlaws, I don't think -- absolutely no reason for jeff to put his ass on the line here where it's not necessary.

Confident huh? I think its a toss up, either one could be the bad guy. Thats why we have a double lynching (I know we can't).

It really doesn't matter which one gets lynched tonight.

the outlaws are the only ones that know the score...we dont know how many of you there are, so killing me today and then a night kill could put you very close to victory, so in that scenario, one extra day could be very valuable....did that make enough sense for you? :p

dola, especially since you know you can get RPI with no defense, since you know where the sheriff was last night

There are 3-4 I'd guess. I can't imagine a 50-66% lopping could ever be a good thing.


As long as they are an outlaw, right? You are baffling me.

50-66% lopping? HUH?

It doesn't matter which one tonight, because if it isn't the outlaw, he will die the next night.

That was in response to Saldana saying I'm an Outlaw and it's possible I would put my head on the block, which would lead to the 50-66% lopping.


But if we get the right one tonight we get one more day to get things done and we clear one guy. There is a big difference between killing an outlaw today and killing an innocent today/outlaw tomorrow.

Well, dinnertime. I want to reiterate that I am in neither camp. I am leaving my vote on dubb, because saldana came out first.

I actually do prefer to get the right guy first, but either way we get him. In past games, a 1 for 1 exchange seemed to work fine for the good side, because we have the numbers advantage.

Good luck to the other half of us that don't post much.

I'm going to bed. With any luck I don't look like an ass when I wake up :).

My pre-emptive apologies if I do.

after what happened today I'm still not convinced

vote dubb

come on RPI, you know you dont trust dubb, change it back and save me

Guys: Before I get killed by the Outlaws tonight, since it seems like a certainty, I want to throw this out there:

I don't know why Neon_Chaos has said there are no secret roles... I am the "Man with the Legacy" and have the power to, for lack of a better word, "investigate" (forgot what the term NC used was... have since deleted the PM) one player when I'm killed and it will be revealed in the morning when I am dead -- I leave some kind of sign that indicates my results.

Who do you guys think I should investigate tonight, assuming I get killed? I don't think dubb/saldana are necessary... my thought is Mr. W who I am 75% sure is an Outlaw. Any thoughts?

After reading and having a short time to decide before putting my daughter to bed, I'll:

Vote Dubb

I've kind of enjoyed watching the show, checking in every once in awhile while playing cards. I'm inclined to agree with RPI that Dubb and Jeff are not both outlaws based on their behavior - would be a nice work by going against convention by Jeff if that is the fact and something to file away for another game, perhaps.

I don't have anything compelling in terms of arguments here. I really don't think Saldana's arguments have been as loopy as Dubb/Jeff would like to paint them. So I'll stick with my gut and hope it is correct this time.

I'm still very interested in what happened on the other night where the outlaws did not get a kill. I'm not inclined to think that the sheriff successfully protected, since we did not hear shots. So ... wondering if anyone might have any insight to share on this? I don't see anything immediately apparent in the roles to explain it.

11:30 PM Vote Count:
saldana (6) - dubb93, Mr. Wednesday, Passacaglia, jeff061, kingfc22, RPI-Fan
dubb93 (5) - Fouts, saldana, hoopsguy, SnDvls, Schmidty

Deadline will strictly be at 12:00 MN, I will use the board's clock.

NC -- what happens in the case of a tie vote?

In this case, since the Judge is already in jail, the tie-breaking decision is deffered to Bek.