It's Official...Tim Howard joins Man U.
 

who's Tim Howard?

He was the Metrostars' goalie.

What are the Metrostars?

Man U has some issues with Fabien Barthez altough Sir Alex Fergusson quickly downplayed rumors that had him fire the french keeper...

Look for Barthez to be the starter on opening day

What's a goalie?

Sorry, goalKEEPER

This may be true in the short term, but there has to be a reason Man U paid the highest transfer fee in the history of the MLS to pick up Timmy, and it wasn't for him to ride the pine long-term behind Barthez (whom Ferguson is already unhappy with, from what I understand).

LOL no way,
the highstest transfer fee in the MLB is nothing compared to European soccer fees.
If you follow football, you know that there is no way a World Cup Champion goalkeeper (moreover France's national team starter) will be replaced by an MLS "star"...

it's like saying the top NFL Europe safety, with the highest FA contract of any NFL europe players, will come to the NFL and push the starting Safety of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for his job.

Sorry Dark, I disagree there.

I think Fabien Barthez is the most overrated goalkeeper in European football. Sure, he won so much, but was it really his achievement, he even struggled with Jaap Stam in front of him?
Howard has been hot in the MLS for some years now and I think it is fair to say the MLS has reached the level of an above average European league, like Rumania, Austria or Poland.

Besides, I'd love to see that Tampa Bay Bucs story.
With Dexter Jackson gone to Arizona, Than Merrill could have a shot at it...

Barthez was riding the pine at the end of last season and i don't think he will be with manutd when the season starts, with carrol heading to birmingham i see ricardo and howard looking to where the #1 shirt with howard getting the nod. And in case nobody noticed 2 americans already are #1 keepers in the premier league and tim howard is considered the 2nd best us keeper already.

mls players can/have done well in europe espcially at the keeper postion

Barthez is overated now. I agree.

Back then between the '98 Worldcup and the '00 European championship he was the #1 goalkeeper in the world.

But to see him being unseated by Howard, I doubt it very much.
let's wait and see ;-)

as far the value of the MLS, I do agree with you MIJB, it is not bullshit anymore but here we are talking about replacing plain and simple one of the most popular goalies in the world...

Going by CM rules, I'm puzzled about this transfer. Shouldn't Howard have to get a work permit in order to play? Doesn't a player have to play in 75% of his team's games for this work permit to be renewed at some point? Getting Howard would suggest that Barthez will be on his way out in the not so distant future if the Red Devils want Howard's permit renewed.

Barthez has never been seen as the world's #1 over here in the NLs. Being French might help there a lot too though...
It could be because he never beat our national team on pens, unlike the famous Francesco Toldo, Taffarel and Peter Schmeichel did. Lama's heroics have been forgotten due to the black vs. white issue at Euro'96.

Concidering the work permit, Man Utd signed Raymond van der Gouw (Dutch goalkeeper) about 8 years ago. Van der Gouw has never been on the national team.
Having that in mind, I'm really puzzled how it works IRL, does the rule only apply to those coming from unproven countries? (Chances are the MLS would not be considered a proven league to English football standards.)

Anyone have some information on another US goalie, "Matt Jordan"? He is competing to be the first choice in the upcomming season for my local team Odense Boldklub.

Normally, to sign a player from a country outside the European Union would require a work permit (due to EU laws, you cannot keep a person from working due to the fact he comes from another EU nation)

At first, Howard needed a Work Permit because he comes from the US, a country outside of the EU (of course)

They did a little research, and found that his mother was born in Hungary, and that qualified him for a Hungarian passport, which helped his appeal for the Work Permit.

He was granted that work permit, and signed a four year deal with ManYoo. Now, to keep the work permit, he'd have to play in 3/4's of ManYoo's games (that he is healthy for). However, I think Hungary will be part of the EU by then, so he will no longer need a work permit.

IF he becomes a starter for ManYoo, United will have made an absolute steal of a deal. For approximately 2 million pounds up front and an extra 1.2-1.5 million pounds when he becomes a regular goalie for them, they will have a goalie good enough for ManYoo's standards. If in a couple years he's still #2 or #3, watch him get loaned back to MLS ;)

Foz

A work permit is only necessary for people from non-EU nations. Howard got around this, from what I've heard, because his wife's a Hungarian citizen.

Barthez is somewhat overrated. A four-year-old could have kept clean sheets behind the French defence from the period Darkiller is citing. When United's defence went AWOL in 2002, Barthez was much less impressive.

Here's what I remember for Matt, aided by a google search:

Starting goalie for the Dallas Burn from 99-2002

103 games for the Burn, mostly in regular MLS play.

Considered a bit weak in the air, and sometimes a bit quick to come off his line, but a solid choice.

The work permit only applies to players coming into the UK from outside the European Union, plus a few other areas/countries that have agreements like Scandanavia and a couple of eastern European countries (I think).

Howard's permit was turned down first time, and Man Utd had to appeal to get it through. They shouldn't have any problems, there's some clause about a player being of exceptional potential that'll get them round the problems. A few years ago Spurs tried to sign South African Quintin Fortune but were turned down for a work permit, a couple of weeks later Man Utd signed Fortune and got a permit with no problem. If any club is going to know how to twist the rules to get their player, it'll be Man Utd.

At the moment, Man Utd's manager Ferguson is going on about Howard's youth, so I wouldn't expect Howard to be Man Utd's first choice very quickly. I'd be betting that they'll use him in advertizing campaigns to try and sell Man Utd tops to any soccer loving youths over here. If Barthez did go (and he's not been having a great time at Man Utd) I'd expect Ricardo to be ahead of Howard in the chances of being the new keeper. Ricardo after all is only 23 but has already played for Spain, and is a regular in their squad, it's not like Howard is guarenteed to be ahead of him.

Thanks, SirFozzie


He will recieve stiff competion from last seasons, second string goalie, though.

Also, there will be a lot of pressure, taking over for the leagues best keeper, Karim Zaza from Morocco.

Watching DC United play the Metrostars, I saw one of United's players loft the ball over Howard who was playing out, Howard hustled back, and tipped the ball over the crossbar. Not in a million years did I think anyone coulda saved a shot like that.

Well, I guess that awnsers my question.

One point can be made though, over the past 5 to 10 years, the European top teams finally have learned to value goalkeepers higher then they've always been valued.
Not so long ago, a new goalkeeper wouldn't even be concidered for 1/10th the price of a backup defender...

That makes me think of a statement made by some goalkeepers:
good goalkeepers don't make saves that are "ooh"-ed and "aah"-ed by the fans, because the are in the right place in time to catch the ball then rather jump horizontally and fingertip to a corner kick.

That's the irnony of goalkeeping, be positioned well all the time and you never make a brilliant save. Goalkeepers with brilliant saves are rememberred much easier then those who never do.

Based on that quote, I can see why you don't like Barthez. Never makes something look simple when he can make it look spectacular.

In defense of Tim Howard the metrostars are currently without thier #1,#2 #4 central defenders due to injury and suspension,

the opposing team are getting way too many quality chances

I'm guilty as charged...
There's not much wrong in making hings look more spectacular, I'd probably do the same.
However, I've seen too many spectacular mistakes from Barthez.
And honestly, at some point, the local sports media made it some sort of weekly item, showing Bathez blunder of the week...

BTW, I didn't (want to) attack Howard, the sentance by Illinifan just made me member the statement about bad and good positioned goalkeepers.

Utd's problem is that they're still trying to find another Schmeichel. Peter wasn't just the best goalie in the world he also organised the defence - it was like having your defensive coordinator out on the field. They've signed a number of 'keepers since Schmeichel but they've all fallen short one way of another. That's certainly true of the current second-stringers.

Barthez is a good shot-stopper - he's very agile - but his judgement is sometimes poor particularly when facing a one-on-one situation when he often comes charging out of his area and commits himself unnecessarily instead of making the striker call the moves. He's let in some silly goals, occasionally important ones, in this way.

He doesn't play a significant role in organising the defence either. In fact he sometimes communicates badly with other defenders.

He was much better last season. He seemed to curb his enthusiasm for charging upfield and didn't make the mistakes he'd made earlier. He still isn't the 'keeper Utd want but he isn't that bad either. He makes a lot of good saves. He saves penalties. He only occasionally makes a mistake.

Howard is for the future. He's young. He's apparently very talented, communicates well and even shows promise as a defensive organisor. The cost was peanuts by Utd's standards. His games for the USA team and his youth help put him above the quality barrier that the immigration rules demand. Utd will coach him now, play him occasionally and hope that he becomes the 'keeper they've been looking for in a couple of years. If not, he'll join the other second-streamers and eventually move on elsewhere.

Typical big club attitiude; get them young, try them out, keep them if it works out, dump them if it doesn't.

I think they're more confident in Howard than that, Mac.

Howard, right now, has the best pure reflexes of any keeper I've seen. Time and time again he'll find a way to stop corners off of headers, or volleys from close range. But that does relate to positioning. Kahn won't dive all over the goal box, but he's the best keeper in the world.

But, Howard's talent should give him a chance to learn all of the positioning and whatnot that's necessary. Additionally, he's not a headcase, and, at least in MLS, he's been able to get on his defense. Which must be very frustrating. When Teddy Arena is your best defender, you need to make some changes...

~rpi-fan

I'm not putting Howard down, RPI-Fan.

It's a dream move for him. He'll get the best coaching. Play for and against the best club sides in the world. If his potential is realised he'll quickly become a multi-millionaire and get the recognition which is denied him as the best 'keeper in the MLS.

The incumbant 'keeper, Barthez, doesn't quite cut it for Ferguson. If Howard has the talent right now, he'll become the number one immediately. If it takes time, then Utd have a good reputation for developing youngsters - Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane (young and second string to Ince when he arrived at OT) the Nevilles, Brown etc.

Dream move for him! Good luck to him. As a Utd fan I'll be delighted if he makes it.

One other thing - to the people that are saying the MLS isn't a high-enough caliber league to be a good keeper, that's just bullshit. The league he was in didn't matter (and granted, MLS is not at all a strong league)

Howard couldn't help his situation - he made the best of the situation he was in, and now it's finally paying off. As goalkeepers tend to develop later than other players, Howard's relatively young age of 24 bodes well for him.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him become the next Brad Friedel (aka one of the best keepers in the Premiership if not the world).

I like Howard a lot. As someone else pointed out, he's playing with a backline in front of him that'd struggle in the A-League, and NY/NJ is still tops in the MLS. He's good, and I think he can make it. Will he be another Schmeichel...that'd be a tall order. Can he be good? I think so.

there was a fanpoll on manutd site and tim howard got 62% of the votes to be the keeper vs bolton to start the season

'keepers mature late. As was said earlier, it's judgement that will deterine how good you are in the end. That judgement comes with experience. Friedel is around 32 now and considered by many to be the best in the Premiership. That certainly wasn't the case only two years ago. He's only now reaching his peak.

Howard is 24 - he's at least 10 years of experience in front of him if he stays focused and fit. He's got a long time to learn and Ferguson will be patient if he feels Howard has the potential. He'll get games but I suspect that Ferguson will string them out somewhat until he's sure Howard can make it. Barthez may well respond to the challenge. There's quality there - you don't become 'keeper of the World and European Champions if you don't have talent.

One thing Howard will have to learn which I don't think he's met yet - the sort of pressure he'll get in the top games, particularly Champions League football. Many a talented player falls apart when faced with that sort of pressure and it remains to be seen how Howard handles that.

It's looking like an interesting season all around. Just waiting now for Ronaldinho to join him and then see how the new team makes out in a few weeks time. Can't wait :)

Howard is going to be a success in Manchester. He has all the ability he just need to cope with going from being a minor sports star in the US to playing for the most popular sports team in the world. I hope he has a good head on him.

With Blackburn signing another American keeper that makes four American keepers in the Premiership. We are taking over baby! ;)

Decaf, perhaps?

I haven't seen a single post in this thread that put down the MLS or Howard. I don't think it's a definite given that Howard has beaten out Barthez just by his mere presence. Barthez may be overrated depending on your point of view but it doesn't take away from the fact that the guy has been a quality keeper for a long time and did play a part on a team that won his league's title and got a fair distance into the Champion's League. I can see the situation that Mac mention where he gets spot starts until Ferguson and his teammates are comfortable with him. I haven't seen anyone doubt his physical abilities and he'll certainly be do well if he can cope with the mental demands over there, which would be nice (except WHY did it have to be Manchester?!?)

You must be having a field day with this offseason. The other offseason grabs (other than Ronaldinho and Howard) have looked really interesting, too.

Who did Blackburn sign?

Some American keeper from a third division German club to backup Friedel.

His name is David Yelldell, signed him from Stuttgart Kickers earlier this week. They signed him on the same day as Lorenzo Amoruso and Brett Emerton, so he kind of got overshadowed.

That could be a real problem.
Some 'keeper reputations have been given a serious hit over the years at top clubs like Man Utd.

Why Manchester?
Because Arsenal doesn't need a goalkeeper? :rolleyes:
(BTW, not so good news around Dennis Bergkamp, 'ey?)

Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards. Meanwhile, Milito went to Real and Howard went to Manchester at very reasonable prices. It's really annoying news around Bergkamp. He should to be treated better. Show Wiltord the exit sign and leave the money for Bergkamp, darn it. (And I STILL need to watch Bergkamp play.)

I did get to see about 15 minutes of PSV in some competition call Peace Cup tonight, though. They beat Munchen on a pair of goals in the last couple of minutes. (How is 'Ooijers' pronounced?) That was cool. :)

This might turn into a complete off topic discussion, though there is a little twist at the end of my post...
I hope you get to see Bergkamp someday, though If Arsenal doesn't offer a new co ntract to him, I think it's a 75% chance he will retire...
Bergkamp wants to retire at Arsenal and he's not just some striker, I think his career is still bigger then any other current Arsenal player (including Thierry Henry and comeback kid Nwankwo Kanu).
Though the way Seaman was shown the door, one can be really worried.

So I read Arsenal also suffers from "all out offense"-disease, like Barcelona and Real Madrid, good for you...
Ooijer?
Check the ping Dutch turkish football transfers thread for explanation on the "ooij" part, where I explained how to pronounce Pierre van Hooijdonk's name. Or just pronounce the "o" in "fork" and add the "jer" part of "jerk", without the "d" sound in "j".
What's next, Waterreus? Vennegoor of Hesselink? (Those I have explained 1 and 2 years ago respectively at FOFC.)
Bruggink? Klaas-Jan Huntelaar?

Personally, I don't watch much of the preseason soccer games, even though there are about 1 or 2 friendlies broadcasted daily. Bayern München losing in the last minutes is always great news though, even in friendlies (except when Man Utd does it in injury time of a CL final.)

BTW, did you know the Philips Sports Vereniging (PSV, mind the Philips part) is in South Korea on a promo tour because PSV seems to be become the #1 football team in Korea, thanks to living legend Guus Hiddink (coach Korea to semi's in World Cup) and the presence of several Korean internationals?

And that brings all back to Man Utd and Howard: this move perfectly fits in the latest soccer trends of buying merchandise friendly players. The USA might be just another market for Man Utd.

They've been linked to a few defensive players - they were meant to be trying for Rustu at some point and they supposedly tried to take advantage of contract disputes to pinch John Terry and William Gallas from Chelsea before we got some money and started returning the favour. I think that Arsenal's biggest problem is that all their funds are tied up in their new stadium, so they can't afford to spend very much.

As an aside about the Metrostars new goalie...

I actually got to see them play in person last night as they were playing a team from around here, the Mid-Michigan Bucks, in the U.S. Open Cup (its very odd to see an MLS team playing at your old high school's field, that's for sure). He showed pretty good command of the area, and did a good job getting to the ball off of corners. He was tested a couple times and did a pretty solid job.

Yay! Good news! Bergkamp re-upped! Woohoo!

Ya, I remember them being connected with Rustu this offseason and during last season but I seem to recall the problem last season being that he wanted more money than they were willing to pay for salaries so I wasn't all that optimistic this time around.

I remember seeing Arsenal being mentioned in passing when Terry and Gallas wanted their contract redone. I never really thought it would really happen since an EPL-proven defender would probably cost a fair bit more than Wenger has the cash for.

I am surprise to not see more about Mexes (even if Roux refuses) or Boumsong since they're also supposely good young French defenders as well. I know that Wenger's funds are supposed to be limited because of the stadium and I've read the figure being mentioned as 10M, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fair bit less with all the trouble they seem to be having. But, still, a lot of the transfer have been at really reasonable prices. Howard, Gabriel Milito and Steve Finnan were all around the 3M-range if I remember right. Even with a limited budget, something in that range should be doable, no?

he saved the final PK to give ManU the win

Nice start by Howard

Can y'all folks who saw the game say how Arsenal played?

For Manchester, it sucks that Fortune is hurt. I thought he looked really good during the US tour.

good game, they rightfully lost one to a red, and should have had a 2nd

I only caught the last half-hour of the Bolton game so I missed Sol's sent off, which sounded like it was deserved, but, damn, for a team that is suppose to be thuggish, the Gunners gets sent to the turf a whole lot. I particularly enjoyed the full-bodied tackle by Gravesen on Titi.

Arsenal's reputation isn't based so much on consistently harsh tackling as the occasional spurt of needless violence and a lot of diving. That said, Campbell's red card wasn't really from either category. Just an ordinary professional foul - so clear-cut, even Wenger saw it.

Ya, it sounded like this last send off was well deserved.

What about the play that got "reviewed" against Djemba-Djemba? Does he deserve to be suspended for that one? [Seriously, I'm asking because I didn't see it. Not trying to be combative or argumentative about it.] What about Djemba-Djemba's hit against Sol? Was it as bad as Wenger said?

I found it amusing that it's the same referee (Halsey) that keeps reviewing, warning and sending off Gunners.

I haven't looked at the highlights recently, but here's what I remember happening:

Djemba-Djemba slides in on Campbell. His foot is a bit high - high enough that I thought Campbell probably deserved a free kick, and definitely had something to complain about.

Campbell retaliates.

Retaliation is usually a red card offence, and I don't see any particular reason to change that rule in this case.

Good point about retaliation deserving a red card. It's also not uncommon for the person retaliating to be the one punished.

I guess my only problem with it would be that Sol is getting punished on the basis of a review where Djemba-Djemba is not.

Dj-Dj wasn't making a tackle at all. He took a shot from the edge of the Arsenal box. The ball was well in front of him and he had to stretch to make the shot. Campbell rushed him to block the shot. Dj-Dj's leg followed through high and almost caught Campbell. It was a clumsy follow-through and not a foul, certainly nothing deliberate. Campbell's retaliation was not malicious, a little dig merely saying "hey watch what you're doing" to Dj-Dj who's new to the Premiership. Campbell should have had more sense. The ref missed it but it was caught on camera. The FA will rule on video evidence and probably give him a ban - not helped by his sending off in the next match :rolleyes:

Another competent performance by Howard, incidentally. He didn't have a lot to do but what he did he did well.

Meh. That's really a stupid move by Sol, then.

By the way, what's your opinions of the new guys for your team so far? Only move I haven't liked so far have been Veron's sale. :)

What I find interesting about United's summer spending is how much of it was concentrated on defensive midfielders. Djemba-Djemba and Kleberson, to go with Butt and Keane, give United a poorly balanced midfield. Says the Chelsea fan.

Yes but you also have to balance that against the signings of Ronaldo and Bellion; moreso the former than the latter. Judging the way they played on their U.S. tour, and their drubbing of Bolton (who, if I'm not mistaken, had taken points from Old Trafford on their last two visits) they are clearly still the favorites for this season.

Yes, they are the favorites. Van Nistelrooy doesn't really need anybody creating for him, and Giggs is one of the best left wingers in the league. Their back line is about as good as anyone short of Chelsea, and Tim Howard should be an improvement on Barthez in goal. Ronaldo I'm not so sure about. I can only think of one player who had a consistent, season-long impact on the Premiership at 18 (Michael Owen), and Bolton were tired and being slightly outplayed when he came on. He will be very good eventually, but I''m not convinced that he's a title-winner now.

Still, all the other title contenders have even bigger problems:

Chelsea's midfield is as imbalanced as United's, albeit in the other direction, and we're going to need a bit of time to gel. We also might not have the killer striker that all the other contenders do. Then again, with Mutu newly signed, Crespo maybe about to sign, and Hasselbaink showing signs of being back to his best, we might have three killer strikers. Check this space at the transfer deadline.

Arsenal's defence wasn't good enough to win the title last year and, unless Philippe Senderos is the type of impact 18-year-old I just said Ronaldo probably isn't, it should be even worse this year. Seaman was a good keeper last year, apart from not being able to jump, and I can't see Jens Lehmann in a new (to him) defence as being much of a improvement.

Newcastle's defence was actually worse than Arsenal's last year, and they haven't signed anybody new.

Liverpool had no width or creativity last year, and playing Harry Kewell on the wrong flank isn't really a significant improvement. They have no strength in depth and the worst manager in the top five.

my view of the top 5

1-manutd-i think howard may prove to be the best transfer of the year, with the leadership and quality they have i would be surprised if they finish anywhere but first

2-arsenal-i think you may have underestimated arsenal i don't care for their manager but he gets results, you can take any player from chelsea and i would take henry or vieria over them while chelsea may have more quality players you only play 11 and i like arsenal's starting 11 over chelsea's.

3-chelsea-i agree the best backline but i don't see a keane or vieria for them on the field and will result in more work for that defense unless edgar davids comes in a transfer things could go bad if some ego's start clashing (also if they come together and the midfield puts forth a high enough workrate both ways then they could surprise? and win it this year)

4-liverpool i think they thought they deserved more last year, i don't see them in the top 3 and lower finish than 4th could cost the manager his job

5-newcastle-i enjoy watching shearer whenever i can he is one of my favorite players i like their group of players but its a tough league i don't think they have enough yet


also i think everton, blackburn and southampton could be in battle for the 5th spot, however it finishes i will enjoy seeing how things play out

ps i have only been following the league for 8 years so you can throw away anything this idiot american says :)

i am also interested if any of the new teams in the league can stay up

I could see Liverpool in fourth; they aren't a top three team, but they might be able to manage Newcastle. My main gripe with them goes back to the final game of last season. They were away to Chelsea needing a win to beat Chelsea out for the final CL spot. Apart from Steven Gerrard, none of their players even looked good enough to make our squad. And that was the biggest game of the season.

Henry and Viera are the best striker and midfielder in the league, respectively, but Arsenal's defence is absolutely horrendous. Ashley Cole is too attacking-minded at left-back, Lauren isn't anything special at right-back, Keown is about forty, and they have no cover whatsoever. Campbell is their only decent defender and, as we were discussing above, he's in a spot of bother with the FA. I also think they'll miss Seaman. He was good for most of last year (did you see his save in the FA Cup semifinal?) and he'd been there since forever. Now the defence has to get used to a new goalie.

Chelsea are missing the Keane/Butt type, yes. In fact, that was why Man U conceded less goals than us last year even though we had a better defence and keeper; they had defensive midfielders, we didn't. On the other hand, we are currently being linked with Claude Makelele, who fills that role for Real Madrid, and Alexei Smertin, who's also meant to be good at that. I'm going to hold off on an in-depth analysis of Chelsea until the transfer deadline's past.

Relegated favorites: Wolves are almost certain to go down. Beyond that, probably two from Fulham, Leeds, Bolton, Leicester, and Portsmouth. If pushed, I'd bet on Fulham and Leeds.

I think Wolves and Leicester will go straight back down, and I think Bolton's habit of waiting until the last day for safety may finally haunt them this year.

20th-leeds-i think leeds will drop, the players they lost will hurt them, and the morale of the current players has to be effected

19th-wolves i will be rooting for the wolves but i expect them to drop as well

18th-i think fulham made a mistake changing managers and would perfer to see them drop

>By the way, what's your opinions of the new guys for your team so far? Only move I haven't liked so far have been Veron's sale

I was very disturbed to see Alex let Veron go after Beckham had left and Utd failed to get Ronaldinho - until I saw Ronaldo last Saturday. What a talent that kid is? :D

When he came on around 70 minutes Utd were winning 1-0 but hardly deserved it. Only Bolton's poor finishing allowed Utd to be ahead. He came on and immediately launched himself at the Bolton defence like a young Giggs. He turned the defence inside out, won a penalty having left two defenders for dead and was instrumental in the second and fourth goals (the third was plainly off-side). The Bolton defenders, who'd dealt quite successfully with the Utd attack up to his introduction, couldn't handle him at all. He attacked them down the left, the right and straight through the middle. I've never seen such an impressive debut. He was scintillating!

The question remains whether he'll be able to stand the rough stuff he'll get from defenders who don't like to be made fools of. He's young, quite slight in build and he'll need protecting so I don't see Alex playing him too often for a while, maybe using him in the latter stages of the game when defenders are tiring.

Dj-Dj looks more than competent and may take over from a fading Keane earlier than we thought. He's a powerful, driving player but I suspect tactically naive at this stage. I haven't yet seen Kleberson and have little idea of how he plays. I'm looking forward to seing him, hopefully this weekend.

I see Utd playing something like this:

.......................van Nistelrooy

<<< Giggs >>>><<<< Ronaldo/Solksjaer >>>

.......................Scholes

..........Keane...................Dj-Dj/Butt

O'Shea.........................................................Neville
..............Silvestre............Ferdinand

........................Howard


I see lots of rotation between Giggs, Ronaldo/Solkjaer and Scholes, all moving between the wings, attacking midfield and alongside RvN and the defensive midfield pairing of Keane and Dj-Dj/Butt allowing O'Shea and Neville to attack on the wings.

So, with four from van Nistelrooy, Giggs, Solksjaer, Ronaldo and Scholes in there I don't see them lacking attacking flair or power and the defence looks good too. But the squad is not deep and a few injuries could mess up that lineup very easily. They're already in trouble in defence with only one match of the season gone :rolleyes:

I can't stand O'Shea. In the few games I've seen him (last year's Real game and a few games during their US tour), it looks like he just clumsily knocks people down and then complains about every single call. Even when he gets away with half the knockdowns.

Between those four defenders, Fortune and Brown, that's a pretty deep group, isn't it? Well, y'know, assuming Brown isn't hurt. Again. I really like watching Fortune during the US tour.

They look strong again this year. I'd really like to watch 'em both in league and European play.

>Between those four defenders, Fortune and Brown, that's a pretty deep group, isn't it?

Not really. Fortune is essentially a midfield player and playing at left-back precisely because of the lack of depth. Five defenders (Neville, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Brown and O'Shea) isn't enough when you have to put 4 defenders out in any one game. A couple of injuries - and bear in mind Brown is already out until 2004 as best they can tell - and you're having to use weaker reserve team players or drop back midfielders. With Neville's injury then they've had to do that already with only one match into a 50+ match season.

Fortune has shown himself to be capable when dropped back to left-back and Ferguson has already used Keane at centreback. That's all well and good in the Premiership where Utd have quite an advantage but it won't do in the Champion's League when the likes of Real Madrid are putting out a team with 5 world class attacking players.

Alex needs to bring in at least one more class defender before the transfer window closes. I believe he will because he's already had a taste of what will happen if he doesn't - the defence at times looked quite vulnerable against Bolton and they're far from being the best team Utd will meet this season.

No way Leeds will get relegated. Viduka and Smith/Bridges (if healthy) is one of the best forward pairings in England. The best young goalkeeper in the league (well after Howard :) ) and a decent midfield they will be fine.

It's going to be...

20 - Wolves : I would love to see them stay up but there is no chance.

19 - Aston Villa : O'Leary isn't a good manager and City will become the premier club in Birmingham for the first time in decades.

18 - Leicester : They will battle until the last day and lose out.

Ok I don't have FSW, is there anywhere on the internet that I can read about what's going on in the Newcastle-Man Utd. game tomorrow?

Leeds are starting Jody Morris in central midfield. That isn't good.

Considering how likely Viduka is to leave, one can actually make a case that Villa have a better strike force than Leeds - Marcus Allback was tearing up the league towards the end of last season, and Angel and Crouch are both good too. David O'Leary isn't a great manager, but he's better than Peter Reid. Add in a halfway-decent midfield (Gareth Barry) and I think Villa will finish ahead of Leeds.

Good game, the first half was great with a lot of end-to-end play, in the second half Man U settled down and played like champions. Very tough to see how they can be beaten to the title this season.

Kinda . . . rough to ask a young 'un like Bramble to try to mark van Nistelrooij.

Kinda rough to ask Bramble at any age to mark van Nistelrooy.

True, true. The guy is insanely good and expecting anyone to try to mark him is unfair. I just meant that at least Terry has had more time to learn to deal with players of that caliber.

Oh how I wish I had FSW. :(

ditto

I wish I'd pay attention, so I could watch games like this on FSW. :mad:

Terry is much better than Bramble, yes, but considering that Terry plays for Chelsea he doesn't really have much to do with Newcastle-Man U. The only Newcastle defender who's good enough not to be completely embarassed by Van Nistelrooy is Woodgate, and he wasn't available that day.

Duh. He'd have a heck of a time trying to help Newcastle all the way from Chelsea's roster, wouldn't he? Yeah, I was thinking of Woodgate. Didn't know he wasn't available, though.

Van Nistelrooy has now scored in 12 straight matches. Its difficult to see any defender going out there and marking him out of the game to the point he wouldn't score a goal. And the goal he scored wasn't Bramble's fault, there was another defender farther away playing him onsides while the rest of the team was trying to get him offsides. Really a mess-up across the back.

Chelsea just officially signed Crespo. :D

Its sick how much they've added; watching their Champions League qualifier today, they basically fielded a B team. However, most of these guys were first team regulars just a month or two ago. Pretty strange.

I'm not sure if that was exactly a B team; with our squad rotation policy, pointing at the B team is kind of hard anyway. On the other hand, there were only three changes from the Liverpool game, which was a very big game (away to CL contender) and should be a fairly good baseline:

Babayaro in for Bridge
Hasslebaink in for Veron
Cole in for Duff

The Hasselbaink-for-Veron switch was because we were switching formation, not a change towards the B team. Cole's also been coming on as a sub pretty often.

True, it was not a full B team, but they left out most of the players they have brought in; I was just trying to point out the rather insane amount of depth they have now at a number of key positions.

No argument here; we've got at least four top-class players at every position up the middle (and the centre-back depth goes back to before Roman!) and good depth on the flanks too.

One problem with my defence of the team is that it counts Hasselbaink and Gudjohnsen as A-teamers, which, once Crespo and Mutu are eligible for the CL, they probably won't be.

An A- for spelling for Daedalus for not being a bandwagon person by misspelling Van Nistelrooij's name. Even though Ruud wants his name to read an "y" in stead of an "ij"...
Too bad you missed the capital "V", which is only uncapped if the re is a first name and last name combination. (Ruud van Nistelrooij, Van Nistelrooij) So much for Dutch names lessons for tooday.

Chelsea is hot on the market, though they're paying way too much money for the quality they get.
How is a team going to cope with such a situation?
Guys like Hasselbaink and Gudjohnson have been pretty important and now some bored millionair decides to buy Crespo, Mutu and whoever they got already.

i think the signing of Crespo is major for Chelsea. (he is a top notch striker imho)

So far things have gone well to start the season 6 league points

If they continue to play well will all the new faces now, they are going to play better together as the season goes on. Things could get very interesting espcially if/when they are at/near the top of the table when the transfer window opens again and the owners wallet isn't closed

Katon-are they any words on just how much they are going to spend? it can't be bottomless can it? I can't imagine the pressure on the manager, new owners tend to bring in new faces add in the amount of money put out and it may be unacceptable to win ugly.

Roman Abramovich has said that (paraphrasing) if there's someone who'd be a good addition to the squad for his fee, we'll have the money. He seems to be limiting spending on a deal-by-deal basis (i.e. we're only going to pay up to £10,000,000 for this guy) rather than on a total budget.

The main limiting factor is probably going to be needs. Apart from a world-class defensive midfielder (we have a couple good players here, but no Viera or Keane) there isn't anything else we would be likely to WANT to buy.

Crespo's an unbelievable signing for us. I'm trying to think of the last time a superstar like that came to the Premiership and the only other player in the past decade who was as big when he came here (Viera, Henry, and Van Nistelrooy all reached that level after arriving) was, coincidentally enough, Veron. Can't wait for Saturday.

We're getting top quality. Mutu was second-leading scorer and Foreigner of the Year in Serie A last year, at only 24; Crespo is one of the best strikers in the world. Damien Duff's the best left-winger in the Premiership. Glen Johnson's one of the better right-backs in the league already, and he's just turned 19 on Saturday. I don't think we payed way over the odds for any of them. Veron is either a great deal or a horrible deal, depending on whether we get his Lazio/Parma form or his Man U form. Cole and Geremi are both good young players who're only going to get better; we might have been a million or so high for them, but we payed reasonable fees. Wayne Bridge was probably the worst deal of the lot, and £7,000,000 for England's future (as soon as Eriksson realizes Ashley Cole can't defend) left-back is defensible.

Hasselbaink and Gudjohnsen have been pretty important, yes, but not key players. The core of the team last year was Carlo Cudicini, Frank Lampard, John Terry, William Gallas, Marcel Desailly, and Gianfranco Zola. Apart from Franco, who was gone before Abramovich took over, that entire core's back and playing. Carlo and JT, in particular, were heroes against Liverpool.

Y'know . . . just ONCE, I'd like to see Arsenal get through a whole week without some kind of controversy. That'd be nice.

Wenger is letting Van Bronckhorst go on loan to Barca. And he's keeping Wiltord. I'll be in the corner crying, if anyone needs me.

I only know that his name should be spelled with an 'ij' instead of 'y' because of your posts. Everywhere else I've seen, his name has been spelled with a 'y'.

So . . . you capitalize the 'V' if you are only saying the last name (Van Bronckhorst) but don't if you are saying the full name (Giovanni van Bronckhorst), is that correct?

Out of curiosity, since I'm soccer-ignorant, did anybody catch Geremi's tackle that got him a red card? Was that deserving of a red?

On the side of 'yes', I guess, is that it's a two-foot challenge and spikes were up. On the side of 'no', I guess, is that he did go for and got the ball. Is that correct?

A thread so nice, I dola'ed twice.Oh. I did not know Brown was out until '04. That sucks. Seems like he just has crappy luck.

Did not know Fortune was a middie filling in in the back. Ouch. That IS harsh.

Say, there's a left-footed French centreback in Highbury that can probably be had for cheap . . . :D

If you saw last night's abysmal display against Wolves you'd have seen what I mean. Silvestre and Ferdinand carried injuries from the weekend. The resulting Utd defence was Neville (G), Keane, O'Shea and Neville (P). They looked woeful! Camara, a second level striker, could have scored five. Twice he was left one on one with the 'keeper, once he found himself completely alone three yards out but the ball came to him awkwardly and twice he was given ample time to shoot from the edge of the box. At times the defence ran around like headless chickens.

I hope Utd have got that performance out of their system :rolleyes:

Right on.

Giovanni will be playing left back at Barcelona (they hadn't one there yet after the leaving of Soler, Sergi and De Boer).

One thing (or three?) people are forgetting:
Serie A quality ≈ Premiership quality
Serie A money ≈ Premiership money
Serie A football ≠ Premiership football

It took Veron forever to get used to English football, I wouldn't be surprized to see Crespo and/or Mutu to never acclimate for 100%.
Plus, with Crespo and Mutu stealing Hasselbaink's job, chances are becoming slim Hasselbaink makes the national team and Van Hooijdonk will stay on the team.
Boy, did Van Hooijdonk finally show his true nature in his home country this summer (until recently, Not' Forest, Celtic and Benfica were blamed for his reputation.)

Apparently, Gio wanted out. :(

Can't say I blame him, he's not getting any playing time. Hopefully, it's not a permanent move. He still seems really classy about the whole situation (lack of playing time, going out on loan, etc). That rocks.

At least he'll be playing for a manager that knows him.

Well, it took him weeks to conclude being a reserve at Arsenal won't be enough to stay on the national team.
Rumors say he's been rejecting several bids before the season started.
Not to mention Van Bronckhorst always said he isn't so happy about playing left back, though in today's football that position fits him better then on the left wing or as defensive midfielder, and now he's come to the conclusion that remaining as the left back of the national team can only be achieved by playing left back at Barcelona.
In the end, I think it's a smart move for both Van Bronckhorst and Arsenal. Van Bronckhorst was not ready I guess after the injury that sidelined him for almost a year. Now he's given the chance to play for one of Europe's biggest clubs on a weekly base and he doesn't even has competition for the position at Barcelona.

To counter with an example near & dear to Chelsea hearts, what about Franco Zola? PFA Player of the Year his first season over here. What about Desailly coming in from Milan? What about Di Matteo? Chelsea have never had any trouble with players adapting before.

It's almost irrelevant how Man U players adapted. Man U have a Scottish manager and mostly British players; Chelsea have an Italian coach and significant amounts of foreign players. Man U play a pressing, agressive style; Chelsea play a more Continental patient, passing style.

All these are factors which might make Chelsea easier to adjust to than Man U.

dola



Case for:
It's two-footed
It was spkes first

Case against:
His feet were going in very, very low - not too dangerous
He played the ball
He was coming in from the front
Rob Stiles thought it was a red

A strict interpretation of the rules would see it as a red, but it's a pretty harsh decision.

I was watching the game, and the first thought that went through my head when I saw it live was 'he's gone'. When I saw the replays it didn't look as bad but I definitely agree that a red card was reasonable punishment in this case.

So it was an appropriate call, just a harsh one?