Ping: St. Louis Cardinal fans
 

It all starts now!!!

Okay, I'm just kidding. Seriously, though, I have a few questions.

Number 1: Just noticed that Larry Walker was hitting in the number two hole. Does that seem strange to anyone else? I can understand wanting to get some lefties at the top, and I know LaRussa's put Edmonds there before, but do you think this will be a regular occurrence, and what do you think of it?

Number 2: Obviously, St. Louis will have plenty of time to set their rotation before the postseason. What will the rotation look like? Three, four, or five man? Is Carpenter the game one guy or Morris because he's been around longer?

Number 3: Finally, as a Cubs fan, I have to ask. Are you guys worried about your starting pitching when the playoffs come around where most so-called experts claim it's all about pitching? I'm sure that most of you will say that you're not, and Cards4ever or Mizzourah may throw in a slam of the Cubs' offense in the process :D , but I'm seriously curious. I think the Cubs will be the Wild Card team, and I'm not worried about their starting pitching, but I am legitimately worried about the bullpen, and Dusty Baker's desire to bat Sammy higher in the order than I think he should be. I know you have to have concerns about your team despite their amazing record, and I'm wondering what they are.

I'm hoping for a Cubs/Cards NLCS. I think I would have to find a way to go see at least a game of that. :)

They played Marlon Anderson in left tonight (lefty) instead of Sanders. The only other option for 2 is Rentaria which would mean 2-4 are rightys, with 5-7 being lefty. I think it's better to put Walker up at the 2 (he has the speed) and get a better L-R breakup from 2-7. If Sanders plays for Anderson, maybe you put Walker back down at 6 and Renteria at 2.

Based on the last few months, you have to go Carpenter, Marquis, Williams as your top 3. Morris may be the most talented pitcher, but he's just too inconsistent to start in the postseason at this point. His last 4 starts are pretty much a microcosm of his season:

7 IP, 2 ER
0.2 IP, 8 ER
9 IP, 0 ER
1.2 IP, 7 ER

I just don't think you can afford to have a guy allow a 7 spot in the first inning in the playoffs. The other three have been steady 6-7 inning, 2-3 run type starters. Which is really all this offense needs. Why roll the dice with a Morris?

Sure, but guys like Marquis, Williams and Carpenter have been more consistent than guys like Wood, Clement and Prior so far. And, again, this team has a very good bullpen (top 4 relievers with an ERA under 3) and the best lineup in baseball. If the Cards' top three guys can go 6-7 innings allowing 2-4 runs like they have all season, they will be in great shape.

Plus, I think the odds of a team shutting down St. Louis consistently over the series is very slim. I see no national league trio (Wood, Clement, Prior being the best) that has the pitching to do that. LA, Atlanta and the Cubs have nice starting pitching, but nothing on the level of Johnson/Schilling that would be needed to give St. Louis consistent trouble.

The main concern I have is health. If the Cards stay healthy, I can't see any NL team get the best of them over a full series. But, stranger things have happened.

Thanks for the reply Arles. Amazing that I can agree with you so often politically, but be so far when it comes to baseball. :D


I can see that, but I still think that Renteria's the best at two consistently despite who's playing left field and that Walker should be in more of an RBI capacity. I'm not sure he still has the speed with his injuries to be a real effective top of the order guy, but that's just my opinion.


That's interesting, and I'd probably agree with you. I'm wondering because of his status with the team if LaRussa will use Morris in one of the first two games of a series.



I don't know if I'd necessarily agree with your first part here. Wood and Prior have been injured much of the year so it's too difficult to look at consistency. When he's been healthy, Wood has actually been very consistent with the possible exception of two mediocre starts. Prior, I'll agree has been very spotty. Clement, I think, has been one of the best in the NL. The only thing inconsistent for him has been his offensive support.

I do agree with you that no team can shut down St. Louis consistently over a series. One would have to hope to hammer their pitchers and try to just hold them to three or four on average.


Yeah, I think the Cardinals have been very fortunate this year as far as the injury bug, comparitively to other NL teams at least. I would say that, at full strength, I can't see any NL team that can get the best of the Cubs in a full series. Ahh, it's going to be fun. :D

Just keep it up, the Cards have been discounted all season, why make them the favorites now?

The Cubs are awfully righthanded, and that is a big reason why the Cards added the lefthanded Walker. The Cubs don't play well in Busch, the bullpen is a mess, the better defense is in STL and the Cubs are still the favorites? Sure, why not.

The Cards are winning games in all different kinds of ways, look at tonight for instance, they get 2 hit and they both are homers to win the game. This team has won in all kinds of ways, shapes and forms. I'd worry about winning the Wild Card before I started worrying about playing the Cards in the NLCS.

Walker in the 2nd slot is ideal, mainly because it drops Edgar Renteria to 6th, where he is most comfortable. On paper I really like him in the 2 slot, but apparently he doesn't care for it as much (although obviously he does it when asked).

I think Arles is dead on with the rotation. Marquis and Williams are pitching outstanding right now. Carpenter left tonight's game with some supposedly-minor lower back issue, but I think he's #1. When Morris is on he's awesome, and I love the guy, but it's a roll of the dice this year.

In truth I am not over-confident about the rotation, but am quite content. I was just thinking tonight how common it is now to check in on a Cards game and see the other team with no runs deep in a game, or at most 1. That's a fantastic feeling.

I do think the Cubs are a potent foe, but I'll take the Redbirds head-to-head. :D

^^
What they said.

My biggest fear is that LaRussa will try to get cute with the rotation in the playoffs (see: Ankiel, Rick) and plop Morris in Game 1 out of some sense of loyalty to his veteran/supposedly #1 starter. I think its unlikely he'll do that, but it still worries me a bit.

I'm not too concerned with where Walker hits in the order, as long as it makes the lineup tough for opposing managers to deal with. Rather, my biggest concern with him is keeping him healthy. He's a bit fragile (as everyone knows), so let's hope the Cards' good luck with the injury bug rubs off on him. Or he rubs out the injury bug. Or the injury bug gets rubbed on a windshield. Oh, I don't really care just as long as some rubbing is going on.

Number 1: Just noticed that Larry Walker was hitting in the number two hole. Does that seem strange to anyone else? I can understand wanting to get some lefties at the top, and I know LaRussa's put Edmonds there before, but do you think this will be a regular occurrence, and what do you think of it?
Walker has something like a .400 on base % and Renteria hits better in the #6 position. I like Walker batting 2nd myself. Womack gets on base, then Walker - Pujols - Edmonds - Rolen - Renteria - Sanders. Wow, that's scary!

Number 2: Obviously, St. Louis will have plenty of time to set their rotation before the postseason. What will the rotation look like? Three, four, or five man? Is Carpenter the game one guy or Morris because he's been around longer?
Carpenter - Morris - Marquis - Williams. Morris is much better at home and Williams can pitch good on the road. That's my rotation at least.

Number 3: Finally, as a Cubs fan, I have to ask. Are you guys worried about your starting pitching when the playoffs come around where most so-called experts claim it's all about pitching? I'm sure that most of you will say that you're not, and Cards4ever or Mizzourah may throw in a slam of the Cubs' offense in the process , but I'm seriously curious. I think the Cubs will be the Wild Card team, and I'm not worried about their starting pitching, but I am legitimately worried about the bullpen, and Dusty Baker's desire to bat Sammy higher in the order than I think he should be. I know you have to have concerns about your team despite their amazing record, and I'm wondering what they are.
Nope, we have excellent starting pitching, great defense (Walker adds to an already great defense), and maybe the best bullpen around. The Cubbis have no bullpen. I think we can duel any Cubs starter pitcher for pitcher, then when the bullpens get envolved - we should excel and win games like we have all year. We just beat a great pitcher tonight with Carpenter leaving in the 3rd inning - on 2 hits!!

I really don't have any concerns at this point, the season has been amazing for me as a fan. I just hope we're injury free going into the playoffs. :)

I'm hoping for a Cubs/Cards NLCS. I think I would have to find a way to go see at least a game of that.
That would be a great series with alot of ulcers I'm sure!


Todd

Thanks to WSUCougar, Fonzie, Arles, and Mizzourah for thoughtful answers to my questions which were legitimate. I wish Cards4ever could have done the same, but he seems to be carrying a pretty large chip on his shoulder.

Fonzie, I thought the exact same thing as you about LaRussa which is why I asked the question. From what I've seen, Morris is a three starter at best for St. Louis right now, and I was wondering if you guys foresee LaRussa pitching him in one of the first two games. I hadn't thought about the home/road split that Mizzourah had mentioned, though. That's interesting.

The only thing I would add is that although I am concerned about the Cubs' bullpen, I wouldn't go so far as to say they have no bullpen. In fact, it's been very good of late. Remlinger, Mercker, and Hawkins have all stepped up their games considerably, and the new guys, Dempster and Leicester, have looked very good. Only God knows why Farnsworth can't figure things out.

Like I said, if it happens (and I realize the Cubs still have to get into the playoffs), it'll be an outstanding series. Obviously, my loyalties are clear, but I wouldn't put money on either side.

I also didn't know that Renteria preferred hitting sixth, but that explains a lot. On paper, I would still have to say that he'd fit so much better in the two hole, but I understand that there are other things to consider there.

Odd as it is...the trio of Clement, Maddux, and Zambrano are, in my mind, a more formidable playoff set than anything with Wood and Prior.

Right now. There's still some time left to see if the 1-2 punch hits their stride. Right now, I'd trust the above three over Prior/Wood in the playoffs.

Well, I certainly agree with you about Prior, but I think Wood has been very good since coming back. The only thing left for him is to get his pitch count back up to his usual levels. Zambrano has actually been spotty lately.

DOLA

Remember two, that it was Wood and Prior who stepped up in the playoffs last year after Zambrano and Clement had been pretty darn good in the regular season.

And Dusty Baker made a comment that I find interesting as well. He noted that the best pitcher in the playoffs last year was Josh Beckett, a guy who was thoroughly rested due to a portion of the season being injured.

Wow, talk about the chip, you can talk smack, but no one else can? You are already putting the Cubs in the NLCS for christsakes.

How was I talking smack? I said that I expected my team to win. Does that surprise you? I would expect you to do the same.

The purpose of the thread, however, was to ask some very legitimate questions that I wondered about the Cardinals. You couldn't do that. You could only insult the Cubs. I never discounted or degraded the Cardinals at all. In fact, I gave them significant credit. But for some reason, you have it in your mind that a Cubs fan can't have a genuine baseball discussion with you. That makes me feel very sorry for you.

There have been plenty of smack-talking threads (about which I alluded with my ribbing at the beginning of this thread), but I did not intend this to be one of them. I don't understand why you can't see that. I feel like it was made very clear, as was my statement (multiple times) that the Cubs still had to get to the NLCS first, but boy would it be a fine match-up if it happened.

I don't think you read my posts, and your reaction is precisely what I would call a chip on the shoulder.

You know what, I made a couple of comments and you go fetal, what is up with that?

I made some very legitimate points, you question the Cardinals batting order and pitching, I questioned the Cubs in a few areas and yet all you can do is say I have a chip on my shoulder.

Yes, lets have some baseball discussion, tell me, how do you address the fact that the Cubs have been terrible in Busch? The Cubs are very righthanded, how do they intend on flipping the Cards LH lineup? What about the bullpen questions? Is Nomar going to stay healthy? What about the other contenders for the Wild Card?

You have questions about the Cards, I have many about the Cubs, so, don't be so touchy and answer my questions.

You've got it Cards4ever, I'll stop being so touchy, if you promise to do the same. Your response to my original post read like nothing but a Cubs bashing to me, and that's why I said what I said. I was not questioning the Cardinals batting order or pitching, in fact, I was questioning how the fans felt about their rotation order and LaRussa's line-up decisions. I promise to you that I was not meaning to insult them in any way. If you took it that way, I apologize. I know I've said on this board many times, that I give the Cardinals all the credit in the world for an amazing season, and I think they are the team to beat right now. I think that if there was one team that I wouldn't want the Cubs to face in the postseason for difficulty reasons, it'd be St. Louis, and I bet that most Cards fans would answer the Cubs given the same question.

Now, to your questions about the Cubs. Not sure if you're talking about right-handed pitching or right-handed order so I'll address both.

Yes, they are very right-handed in the line-up, but I actually don't see it as being a big issue because of the fact that they haven't even hit left-handers very well this year at all. I'd be curious to see if, in the postseason, a smart manager brings in a lefty (like Kline or King whom the Cubs haven't hit at all) to face their righty guys. I'd be a bold move, but an effective one in my mind. Obviously, they have Patterson from the left side, and he hits lefties better than most of the righties. Then Walker gives them a bat from the left side when he plays. The one thing that makes me feel a little better about it is that the Cubs have some guys off the bench from the left side, assuming full health, like Hollandsworth, Macias, Goodwin, and Walker when Grudz starts.

As for their pitching, the lefties in the Cardinal line-up have given Cubs pitchers a lot of trouble, but when they have Pujols and Rolen from the right side, it doesn't really matter. Both sides are going to give them trouble. The Cubs do have some lefties in the pen who have pitched well of late, though, like Mercker, Remlinger, or Rusch, whom I think can match-up against Edmonds or Walker in a late game situation.

I don't know how I address the fact that the Cubs suck in Busch. They've sucked in Busch several years now, although if I remember correctly, they were a little better this year actually. It's certainly something they'll have to get past if there is a playoff match-up.

I actually addressed the bullpen questions for the Cubs a bit earlier. I would still like for them to get a bullpen arm in a waiver deal, maybe an Urbina (although I hear he's hurt) or a Mesa. If they don't, though, I won't be as worried as I was around the trading deadline. Their bullpen has been very good lately, with Remlinger, Mercker, and Hawkins all returning to form. Dempster and Leicester have really come in and provided a boost. The only huge question mark for me is Farnsworth. I just can't figure that guy out.

I don't have much doubt that Nomar will stay healthy. I think that he'll take a day off every week or so and be ready to go every game if the Cubs make it to the postseason. Obviously, though, nobody can predict injuries. Injuries could change the whole thing between now and October, and I have no idea what will happen. From what I've seen so far, Nomar is in very good shape and playing well.

Although I don't mean to discount the other teams in the Wild Card race (especially since San Diego beat the Cubs last night), I do think the Cubs will get in. I think that now, as they start to get healthy, they're the best of the Wild Card contenders from top to bottom, especially now with Nomar. San Diego, I think will fade a little bit, but I don't think San Francisco will. They're too used to winning, and I think they'll gut it out. In the end, though, I just don't think they have what it takes in talent - same story for Philly (who has been hit with injuries) and Florida (who just doesn't seem to have the spark of last year despite their good deadline pick-ups).

DOLA

And what exactly is going fetal...? :D Does that mean I rolled up into a ball in the corner, searching for a teat. ;)

Guess we'll have to see how it plays out, but, I think the Wild Card is going to be tougher then what you anticipate, especially when you are not playing those teams day to day.

This has the potential to be a very fun thread, so I'd encourage everyone to keep it civil.

I think CW makes a very interesting point about the Cubs postseason rotation. I'd be floored if Dusty were to drop Wood or Prior from the rotation, as it would fly in the face of his persistent and sometimes irrational desire to "trust your veterans," but as esteemed baseball philosopher Joaquin Andujar once said, "youneverknow."

And while we're on the topic of rotations, I'll give y'all my preferred postseason rotation based on performance-to-date: Carpenter-Marquis-Williams-Morris. If, however, the Cards get homefield (which looks likely) and Morris' home/road split continues, I might bump Morris up to the #2 slot so he gets a home start. Of course, a lot can change before October, and I'm particularly worried about both Carpenter (coming off an injury) and Williams (who will be 38 next week) wearing down. That said, I'm not sure that would affect my desired rotation too much, as Jeff Suppan would be a less-than-optimal replacement.

On a side note, Rick Ankiel is expected to join the Cards next month when the rosters expand. He's had a pretty rough road to travel,so it'll be nice to see him back. Just so long as LaRussa doesn't get any bright ideas about starting him in a Game 1. :)

What heterosexual male/homosexual female doesn't do this at least once a day? ;)

Well I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Cubs would walk away with it by any means, just that I thought they would win in the end. I definitely don't think it'll be a cake walk.

I think that at this point in the season, Prior would not be a game 1 or even game 2 guy for Dusty. Dusty knows that Prior still hasn't come back from his injury, and that he's still incredibly rusty and inconsistent. Hopefully, that will change by the end of the season, but I think a bigger question for the Cubs might be what to do with Maddux. If everyone's healthy for them, and they do actually make it into the playoffs, does Dusty go with a five man rotation? I honestly don't know. I'd have to think that Wood would go game one. After that, it's anyone's guess, and obviously the Cubs probably won't have the advantage of being able to set their rotation like the Cards will, but Dusty has shown a propensity to use Maddux as a change of pace guy from the hard-throwers, so he could very well be used in game two or game three or a series.

Like I said before, I didn't know that about Morris' home/road splits, but with that in mind, I'd probably pitch him in game two after Carpenter. I also agree that Marquis should be before Williams. Does that push Suppan to a long guy?

I haven't read much about Ankiel. The last thing I heard was that his control was still REALLY spotty. His is a really strange story, that's for sure. I suppose the Cardinals have the breathing room to let him get some innings in September, which is a good thing for him.

I'm actually there right now. Thank God for cordless keyboards. :D



Edit to add: Wow, triple dola for me.

That's only a double dola... damn Cubs fans. :p


Todd

Ok, gotta ask the Cubs fans this.

Do you think you are going anywhere with the lineup Dusty Baker sends out there?

Patterson - why on god's green earth is he hitting leadoff right now.
Garciaparra - A guy hitting in the right spot in the order.
Alou - Nope, should be hitting 5th.
Sosa - Great spot for him....3 years ago. Should be hitting 6th.
Ramirez - Best hitter is hitting 5th. Makes sense to me.
Lee - 2nd best hitter before Nomar arrived is hitting 6th. See above.
Walker - Should be hitting 1st or 2nd.
Barrett - Toss up between him and Patterson for the 7th spot.


I read the shit about Baker not moving Sosa down in the order because it may hurt his feelings. Bullshit, you're out to win games and. Plus, what's it going to do, make Sosa hit worse than he is right now?

Seriously, this is a team that should be scoring a lot more runs than it is and by looking at the batting order its easy to see why they aren't.

Yeah, I said that earlier in this thread. Sosa should not be in the 3rd or 4th spot, but that's how Dusty maintains his reputation as a player's manager and gets guys to play well for him supposedly. I think it's crap, and I agree with you that he belongs in the sixth spot.

I don't, on the other hand, have a problem with Patterson hitting lead-off. The team is completely void of speed, and anything that gets Patterson thinking about getting on base rather than swinging for the fences every pitch is a good thing. I also don't have a problem with Alou hitting third. He's one of the better clutch hitters and won't strike out as much as Ramirez.

Walker and Grudz have been splitting time with Grudz getting a bit more. My line-up, if I were manager, would look like this.

CF Patterson
SS Garciaparra
LF Alou
3B Ramirez
1B Lee
RF Sosa
2B Grudz/Walker
C Barrett
Pitcher

Obviously, it's right-handed dominated, but I addressed that in another post earlier as well. They hit much better against right-handers anyway, and have some good bats off the bench from the left side.

And to answer your first question: Yes, I think they'll still go somewhere with that line-up that Dusty puts out there because it's a lot of very good hitters, admittedly not what the Cardinals have, but on par if not better than most line-ups in the National League.

I agree with the line up you posted, except for Patterson. Statistically speaking, he's the wost hitter in the lineup. .325 OBP and .763 OPS. World Class speed wouldn't make up for what he's lacking at the plate right now. Patterson has also taken about 5 steps back from a couple months ago when he started taking a few pitches after getting booed for every strikeout.

I would probably hit Lee 3rd and move Alou to 5th. Alou looks like the perfect 5 hitter right now and Lee's .371 OBP would be a lot more productive in the 3 hole. Todd Walker also has on OBP over .370 and should be getting a lot more ABs than Grudzielanek (a guy that's actually hitting worse than Patterson) and is who I would probably move into the leadoff spot in place of Mr. Swing and a Miss.


EDIT-The question of going anywhere was just to get people's attention. ;)

I actually agree with everything you've said, and I can definitely see the logic in swapping Lee and Alou. I think that Baker's feelings on Patterson is that if he can get him trying to get on base rather than drive in runs, it'll help him solve some of his problems at the plate. So far, it has work alright, but who knows how it'll work in the end. Baker also really likes that speed at the top, and speed is something the Cubs really lack.

Grudz did have a fine season last year, and I suppose that Baker's hoping to give him the at bats to get back to that. But, I agree with you that, right now, Walker should be in there.

SINGLE DOLA (that was for you MizzouRah :) )

Incidentally, Suppan has a no-hitter right now through five.

Not any more. Cuckoo cursed him.

As a Cubs fan, I don't have to keep it quiet... :D

Watching the game tonight and apart from Bonds is there any other non-pitcher you would want on your team rather than Scott Rolen?

..and everyone says our pitching is a concern.. shakes head..


Todd

dola,

and yes... Rolen was a STEAL, A STEAL.. A STEAL! ..thanks Philly!!


Todd

Who kidnapped Jeff Suppan and replaced him with Curt Schilling tonight? Man, if this guy can get any kind of consistency going in his starts, St. Louis is going to be a very tough team to face down the stretch.

Word.

St. Louis is going to be tough on anyone regardless of the way Suppan performs.

And I would say Rolen would be right up there, along with Pujols. The Cubs got a pretty good steal for their third baseman as well. Thanks Pittsburgh... Wait, do we see a pattern here...? :D

Poor Pennsylvania folks.

Cubs lose 2 out of 3 at home to the Padres? Better not let that continue

Cubs

Todd

Tonight is the exact reason why Morris should not be in the 3-man postseason rotation.

Why, because he had 4 un-earned runs? ...and LaRussa had the JV team out there today?


Todd

Because he gives up the big innings sometimes against good teams, especially on the road.

If it wasn't for the errors, he would of had a normal game. Maybe the game would have still been 3-2.


Todd

I figured this all out, the Cards were 18-17 before I went to STL in May, since then, they are 59-23! I turned the season around! If only the Cards could recognize that and hook me up if they make the WS!

By the way, Pujols has gone ballistic. He's on a different plane. Which is scary.

I'm just amazed at the different ways they find to win. This team is going to be tough to beat in the postseason, they should have the division wrapped up in about 3 weeks and after that they can start to get people rested, and the rotation setup for the playoffs.

Here comes Ankiel! :)


Todd

Better start something soon, you just slipped to a game back in the Wild Card race.

Cards Magic Number is now 29! :)

I love being in Chicago wearing a Cardinals hat. I think 3 people said, "Cardinals Suck" tonight. I love it!

:)


Todd

Check out #7

http://msn.match.com/msn/article.asp...44658&GT1=4529

Okay, I'm bumping this because I have another question for Cardinal fans, and I didn't want to start another thread.

I should say first to please not take this as any attack on the Cardinals at all. This is simply a question of strategy, nothing else. I'm not questioning their character or anything else.

With that said, I was looking at the remaining schedules of the Wild Card contenders. In my opinion, and I realize some would disagree, the Cubs would be the favorites, the Giants next, and finally the Padres. Unless something amazing happens, the others are likely out of it. So, assuming that the Padres are the weakest of the three, which may be debatable to some but not to many others, here is my question:

The Cardinals still have six remaining games with the Padres and none with the Cubs. With a comfortable division lead and the playoffs virtually guaranteed for them, do they consider playing a little softer against San Diego? Strategically, would it even be something they think about, if not just on a personal player standpoint? In other words, I doubt that La Russa will hold a team meeting and say roll over, but would there be whispers about it amongst the players? Just wondering.

The Cards are going to play like they have all along, there will be rest time for the regulars, but, Larussa is not going to put a B team out cause he's afraid the Cubs are going to make it in. From what we have seen this season, is there any reason to fear the Cubs?

Yeah, I think so. I think that if all the Cardinal players were honest, they'd say the Cubs are the team they fear the most. But it's not just that. My point was that if San Diego gets the Wild Card, then the Cards get them in the first round rather than the Braves or the Dodgers. One would have to think they'd rather have the Padres in the first round and not have to worry about the Cubs, just thinking strategically.

I agree with you that the Cardinals aren't going to go out there and roll over; that's not what I was saying. I'm just wondering if the thought had crossed their mind, and maybe subconciously they won't play with the same fire against the Pads.

Anythings possible, but I doubt it. I don't think they fear anyone or any team this year. Something refreshing about the confidence of this team.


Todd

I disagree strongly with this. The Cards match up very well against the Cubs, the Cubs play lousy in Busch, the Cards 2-3-4-5 guys are going to be tough against anyone, the Cubs bullpen(tonight was another example) and a team that wins games in so many different ways.

Cub fans keep saying well, your pitching is going back to what was predicted, and our team is going to do what was predicted, but the fact is, you have one team producing and one team not. Which team would you bet on?

In complete and total honesty, if they match-up in the postseason (and I know that's a big if), I will bet on the Cubs.

Again though, I wasn't trying to do some kind of comparison between the Cubs and Cardinals. That has been done to death in this thread and others. I was simply asking a strategic question.

Then why do you keep saying the Cards are worried about the Cubs? If the Cubs win the Wild Card, the only way they play them is if both teams win their first round. With how the Cubs have been so inconsistent this year, I would be nervous whoever they play.

You do realize, don't you, that I'm not the only one saying that. You may think we're all nuts, but a lot of baseball minds on ESPN and the like peg the Cubs as one of the tougher teams if they make the playoffs. Neither the Dodgers or the Braves (to my knowledge) were picked by the majority of people at the beginning of the season to win their divisions. That's the reason that I said the Cardinals would probably worry more about the Cubs than the other teams they could possibly face.

Again though, my point was about strategy, not necessarily a Cubs/Cardinals match-up. If the Padres win the Wild Card, St. Louis gets them in the first rounds, a seemingly easier first-round opponent than either the Dodgers or the Braves. As an added bonus, they wouldn't have to worry about the Cubs at all.

Jeez, I feel like I'm pulling teeth with you, Cards4ever. I'm asking about strategy, that's all. If you honestly don't believe that it would enter the Cardinals' minds, fine, say that. But I think there are some people who would think that it does, and that's what I was curious about when I posted my question.

Thank you for actually addressing my question. I agree with you that there's not anyone they fear. In fact, I would say that I haven't seen a team in a LONG time with as much confidence as this St. Louis team has. That said though, wouldn't one still want the path of least resistance, and wouldn't they think about that sometime along the way? I'm just one of those kinds of people who is always looking ahead at strategy, and if I was in the Cardinals place, it would cross my mind. They have such a big cushion that they can look at things like that. Now, I'm not saying that I would actually play softer against San Diego, and the point may be moot as the other teams (Cubs included) would still have to win games if they want to be in the postseason. But I would think that if I were in their shoes (the Cards), maybe subconciously, and without realizing it, I play with a little less fire. Who knows, just interesting to contemplate.

MY GOD! Having an intelligent discussion around here seems to be flat out impossible. I am NOT assuming the Cardinals are scared of the Cubs! How many times do I have to say that? In fact, I've said just the opposite time and time again.

You know what, I've already given way too much time to you, Mr. mtaystl03. Buzz off.

That's funny. The Cubs don't scare anybody, especially the Cardinals.

I have obviously made a mistake. I had a thought about strategy going into the postseason for a number of teams involved, including the Cardinals, and I thought that I would post it on here for some feedback and maybe have an interesting discussion. That hasn't happened.

Maybe it's my fault as well, but it seems to me that everyone is trying to assume that I'm giving more credit than the Cubs deserve or less than the Cardinals deserve just because I'm a Cubs fan. That was never my intention at all. I'm just going to step out of this one, and if anyone would like to talk about it, please PM me or something.

Obviously, on a messageboard, it is absolutely impossible to have a discussion without people trying to find some hidden meaning or arrogant assumption in the question. I assure you all that there was none of that.

I understand you, Cuckoo.

I do believe it would be one of the best NLCS' EVER if the Cubs met the Cards in the NLCS. It'd be an amazing series, no doubt settled in 7 games.

I think that if all the Cardinal players were honest, they'd say the Cubs are the team they fear the most.

In complete and total honesty, if they match-up in the postseason (and I know that's a big if), I will bet on the Cubs.

You may think we're all nuts, but a lot of baseball minds on ESPN and the like peg the Cubs as one of the tougher teams if they make the playoffs. Neither the Dodgers or the Braves (to my knowledge) were picked by the majority of people at the beginning of the season to win their divisions. That's the reason that I said the Cardinals would probably worry more about the Cubs than the other teams they could possibly face.

If the Padres win the Wild Card, St. Louis gets them in the first rounds, a seemingly easier first-round opponent than either the Dodgers or the Braves. As an added bonus, they wouldn't have to worry about the Cubs at all.

That said though, wouldn't one still want the path of least resistance, and wouldn't they think about that sometime along the way? I'm just one of those kinds of people who is always looking ahead at strategy, and if I was in the Cardinals place, it would cross my mind.

MY GOD! Having an intelligent discussion around here seems to be flat out impossible. I am NOT assuming the Cardinals are scared of the Cubs! How many times do I have to say that? In fact, I've said just the opposite time and time again.


No, actually you say one thing, but then come back at it another way. I've tried to answer your question several different times. Instead you get cranky cause it seems like you want Cardinal fans to say we are fearful about possibly playing the Cubs.

The Cardinals are going to take it one series at a time, no matter who they play. I've said that and then tried to add something, but, for some reason anything I add frustrates you and I become some kind of ogre.

OK, to seriously answer your question. If the Cardinals really hated the Cubs and didn't want them to have any success and I understand this is a different situation last year, why would the Cardinals be the reason the Cubs made the playoffs last year.

What a lot of people overlook is the fact that the Cardinals beat the Astros 7 of 9 games down the stretch last year to propel the Cubs into the playoffs. They could've laid down and died but they played tough no matter what.

That is the way baseball is. I understand your question and the motive to spark some conversation and I'm not dissing that. I am simply saying that it is not an option.

It seems you want to lead the discussion and not allow for any discussion back at you.

You question STL and I have tried to question you about your team, but, instead I'm arrogant and not willing to have a quote, unquote intelligent discussion.

No one is trying to crucify you, get over it and don't take everything like it some kind of personal attack.

Fair enough.


Cards4ever - You and I are just in two completely different worlds, clearly. I cannot even imagine how you get some of the things you get out of what I say.

No, it's best to do business as usual, sure, rest a regular here and there, but to put out a total B team would be the wrong thing to do, and I highly doubt you would see the Cards doing such.



I don't think so, I think the Cards feel they matchup well with the Cubs and with how they have played this season against them there is no reason to do what you suggest they may be thinking about.



No, I think the Cards are going to be pretty confident no matter who they play. Just this week Larussa wanted to rest Renteria and he argued to stay in the lineup, Pujols has done the same, even with his sore foot.

(deep exhale)


Wow, how the Cubs/Cards discussion can get heated. I'll try not to take such things so seriously.

Believe it or not, I actually thought my initial question would get more response as being a knock on the Padres, but I suppose the Padre fans aren't about to stick their noses in here. :)

It honestly was a knock on the Padres, though, not an overinflation of the Cubs' talent.

And I suspect you're right, Cards4ever, that St. Louis won't even think about it. They have little need to with their performance this season, I suppose. The strategist in me is just always looking at the intricacies.


Oh, and I have no problem talking about the Cubs' lackluster use of their talent this season, so fire away... :D

You know, I haven't really looked at the schedule to see who the Padres, Giants, Cubs and even the Marlins play in the last month. With the teams not really facing each other, the schedule could play a huge factor in who gets in more so than any kind of talent question.

It's also a matter of health, though I believe the Cards are safe with the huge lead they have no matter what happens.

However, if they are not healthy come playoff time, then all bets are off, just as they would be for any team with health questions.

No matter who makes it in, all 4 teams are going to be good.

I wouldn't call that confidence. TLR should still bench them to get them fully rested for the playoffs. Especially Pujols. Play them more thus increase the chance of getting injured. Doesn't really make sense...

I'm a Cubs fan, what am I talking about.

It's when you rest them too much, they get out of their groove and it screws things up. If a guy wants to play, he plays in my book. These are professionals, you take a chance of them getting hurt every game. I really don't like that tact of giving them lots of rest. If this was football, I say, heck ya, rest them to death, but baseball's different.

It's my opinion, but give them rest when they need it.


Todd

I understand what you are saying, but I really think you're looking way too far into this. Last year, I say yes, the Cardinals were intimidated by the Cubs. This year, however, the Cardinals are much more confident and I really don't think they care one way who they face in the playoffs. They played the Cubs differently than any other team they faced last year. They were punked, and you could tell the Cardinals were timid.

If they do play soft against San Diego then this season is all for nothing, in my opinion. My respect for them would clearly go down.... and I think the team would lose that "magic" they seem to have.

There's a difference between playing "soft" and playing with a 14.5 game lead.

Todd

I agree with you completely. Right now, I think all of them are relatively healthy. The schedule seems to favor the Cubs just from the fact that they have more teams under .500, but that may not mean too much. The Padres still have six with the Cards which will be really tough for them, and they also play the Giants and Dodgers a decent amount. The Cubs have the Braves and Houston but a lot with Milwaukee, Cincinnati, and the Expos if I remember correctly.

My prediction, for whatever it's worth, is that it comes down to the wire between the Giants and the Cubs as I think the Padres will fade a little bit. But both the Dodgers and the Braves are much better than I thought they'd be.


This is the trick because I think it's a fine line. I agree that you can't rest them too much at the risk of getting them out of that groove. They'll probably all get more rest than they would had they been in a tight race, but I don't see LaRussa sitting any of them more than once a week or so and not more than two of the top guys in any one game.

Central - Cards
West - Dodgers
East - Braves
W/C - Either Giants or Padres, Cubs finish 3-4 games back of the eventual winner.

Somebody write that down.

I'll write it down and lick it with a stamp!

No Cubs = bonus

:D


Todd

I see that completely. I never really meant benching key guys or throwing a game when I said "soft." I just meant that they might not play with the same urgency knowing that the Padres were the weaker (in my opinion) of the teams in the Wild Card race.

What mtaystl03 mentioned earlier about the Cardinals last season is pretty close to on point about what I was talking about, and I hadn't thought of that at all. They had a direct impact on who got into the playoffs and still beat the Astros pretty badly. There were rumblings last year that Milwaukee didn't play as hard against the Cubs down the stretch because many of the players liked the Cubs better than the Astros or Cardinals. That was one of the things that made me think about it when I was looking over schedules.

It seems like there'd be a lot of times when a team could influence a race based on their preference, and I wonder how often it actually happens. Probably rarely, but I bet it does.

I'll be watching this post for that little "Edited by..."

:p

You know, as a Giants fan- the Cardinals dont really scare me that much- a formidable opponent, but a beatable one. I expect LaRussa to take heart of what happened this year in his 3 game set, and pitch to Bonds( unlike in 2002)- I then expect to see balls in McCovey Cove. In terms of offense, The Giants have scored only 8 runs less than the Cardinals- which people forget when annointing the Cardinals as the greatest offense around. In terms of pitching, the Cards are better - but in a 5 game series, you have the NL's best pitcher twice in Jason Schmidt- in terms of peak value, the Giants are better. The fear is in the blowpen- the Giants could easily blow another game or two thanks to that. But overall, given the strategic differences in the playoffs, the Cards wouldnt be the worst opposition to have to face- the Braves scare me more.

That is assuming the Giants make the playoffs.

undoubtedly. Im simply stating the Cardinals seem similar to the 2001 Mariners in many ways.

And that is exactly what the Cardinals are going to try to avoid, I'm sure that will be discussed in the Clubhouse. I also think that is why they didn't stand pat and acquired Walker.

agreed. All Im saying is that I dont see much in the way of pitching peak value. walker was a great deal- they might be able to simply bludgen their way out of any trouble.

I guess it's safe to say that bringing over Walker wasn't the worst decision in the world for the Cards ;)

Man, he looks back in 1997 form - amazing what a pennant race can do.

Walker has been awesome, more with his walks than anything else. And Renteria has responded as expected with RBI in the 6th slot. Sweet.

What's got me worried is Ray King. He's tired, or he's just lost it for the moment, but he's getting ripped every time out. For a guy who was basically unhittable for the first half, this is troublesome.

I expect another reliever via Waivers wire.


Todd

no chance- given the teams with worse records in front of them (the Giants, Dodgers and Cubs) who desperately need bullpen arms, there's no way anything worthwhile gets through unless there is a large contract attached to it.

I think your question has been answered Cuckoo.

Good. The Cubs could sure use the help. Go Cards!


I can't believe I just said that. ;)

Why the hell did you guys pick up a catcher and a of?

The OF move I can understand, in Grieve. But Mike Defilice, won't be anything at all. He'll be behind Bako, who only plays when Maddux pitches. Don't matter, just another part of the 40-man roster.

I do believe Grieve will be a better late inning Pinch hitter than any lefty we have(goodwin, Hollandsworth isn't coming back anytime soon). Makes sense, well, half of it. I don't suspect we'll give anything more than a 1 star spec(To take from OOTP).

It's nice to see that you're coming around. :p

The problem is, you still didn't address your most glaring weakness, your bullpen.

That's a good thing, and I hope Prior continues his great pitching. :p


Todd

From what I hear, they've been trying to address it, as have a number of teams in the hunt. That's why the teams with good bullpen arms available like Mesa or Urbina can ask for a king's ransom. I'm glad they haven't made a rush decision and given up a ton for a marginal arm like those guys.



Since the Cubs lost Hollandsworth, they haven't had much power off the bench. Grieve's not a great player, and I'm sure the Cubs are hoping that Hollandsworth gets healthy, but if not, Grieve at least gives them some power from an OF position off the bench. I think that was a solid move.

As for the catcher, the Cubs wanted to have a third catcher for September (as most teams do), and they really didn't have anything in AAA. So this will give them some more options in the late innings through September. That's all that was as he won't be on the postseason roster (if they get there).



Playoff races make for very strange bedfellows. :D

Great article!
 

http://www.sj-r.com/sections/sports/stories/34035.asp#

Crybaby Cubs turn sour grapes into whine


By MIKE NADEL
STAFF WRITER

CHICAGO - It has been an especially productive year at the Cubbie Vineyards, where fine whines are always available.
Such as:

"The umpires are killing us!"

"Steve Stone is telling the truth on TV instead of being a cheerleader!"

"The sportswriters are out to get us!"

"Our opponents are mean, mean men!"

"The fans have unreasonably high expectations!"

"The sun's in our eyes ... the wind's blowing out (or in) ... it's too cold (or too hot) ... we have too many day games!"

"We're the only team with injured players!"

"EVERYBODY'S OUT TO GET US!!!"

Apparently, simply shedding their Lovable Losers label wasn't enough. The Chicago Cubs had to become Whiny Winners.

Except for one small detail: The Cubs still haven't won more than a division title since the Truman Administration.

Which leaves only the whining.


It gets tiresome, and I'm not alone in that assessment.

"I wish we'd just shut up and play ball," one high-ranking team official told me in the Wrigley Field press lunchroom before Sunday's 10-3 loss to the Houston Astros.

My best laugh of the day came courtesy of manager Dusty Baker.

"We don't have no crybabies here. I don't think we have a team that's going to complain unjustly, either," he said. "My dad didn't like no whining. He didn't like no excuses, either. I'm the same way."

Fact is, the Cubs have so many complainers, crybabies, whiners and excuse-makers that it's hard to take them seriously even when they have legitimate beefs.

Moises Alou sounded silly last month when he railed at Stone for being "too negative." Stone said Kent Mercker complained Friday about Chip Caray. Baker's take: "There could be merit to some of it."

Jeesh. If the Cubs worried as much about Carlos Beltran and Jeff Bagwell as they did about Stone and Caray, they might not have lost three straight over the weekend and let Houston back in the wild-card race.

Stone, the city's keenest sports analyst, was disappointed in Baker. Years ago, the former Cubs pitcher publicly campaigned for Baker to be hired as a big-league manager.

"I've read a lot about what Dusty likes and doesn't like," Stone said Sunday. "Well, one thing I don't like is short memories."

Isn't it fun being part of the media, Steve? These days, we're the source of much Cubbie angst. But enough about us. The Cubs have plenty of other perceived enemies.

Baker hates opponents who try to show up the Cubs, an interesting statement for the manager of a team featuring Sammy "Bunny Hop" Sosa and Carlos "Fist Pump" Zambrano.

The Cubs have gotten into beanball wars with the Astros and Cardinals. Of course, the other guys always started the hostilities.

Upon entering Cubbieland, Michael Barrett went from mild to wild. His verbal jabs at Astros pitcher Roy Oswalt on Friday were both childish and counterproductive.

The same day, inept reliever Kyle Farnsworth allowed six runs and took out his frustration by kicking an electric fan. He hurt his knee and went on the disabled list.

And the umpires! Evil, pure evil. To hear the Cubs tell it, every game is Our 9 vs. Their 13.

LaTroy Hawkins tried to throttle Tim Tschida. Baker thinks C.B. Bucknor and Bruce Froemming have it in for the Cubs. Alou slams his bat to the ground after every strike. Kerry Wood gets bent out of shape when calls don't go his way.

Saturday, Zambrano thought Eric Cooper had a "tight" strike zone. That must explain why Zambrano couldn't catch Derrek Lee's perfect throw at first base, turning what should have been an inning-ending grounder into a three-run Festival of Errors.

Welcome to the Cubbie Vineyards, folks. Whine for everybody!

After signing with the Cubs, Greg Maddux downplayed the pitcher-as-mentor angle favored by the fawning media. We should have listened to Maddux. If anything, Wood, Zambrano and Farnsworth seem LESS mature this season.

Baker said his lads don't deserve their reputation as whiny rabble-rousers.

"It's like we're the Raiders or something, like we're brawlers," he said. "We're just proud guys who don't start nothing but don't take nothing, either."

Besides, he added, "Would you rather have Lovable Losers or the perception of Unhappy Winners? I'd rather have the Winners - all day long."

Silly me. I never knew winning and happiness had to be mutually exclusive.

Of his team's increased surliness lately, Baker said: "In our society, there's probably more crimes in hot-weather months."

Absolutely. When in doubt, blame the weatherman.

When chugging whine at the Cubbie Vineyards, it's OK to blame anybody but oneself.


Mike Nadel ([email protected]) is the Chicago sports columnist for Copley News Service.

You better watch out for those Astros, man are they hot!


Todd

I agree with everything said there. I've watched almost every televised Cubs game this season, and I don't think I've ever seen a Cubs team complain so much. I will say that there have been a large number of calls go against them this season, calls that cost them games, more so than any time I can remember in the recent past. But to constantly make excuses about it is ridiculous, and the Cubs have been doing that a lot.

The whole bunk with the WGN announcers is childish and makes me lose a lot of respect for Alou (whatever respect I had left after he learning he pees on his hands :) ).

Seriously though, this would be a very good Cubs team if they just concentrated on baseball instead of getting caught up in all this other crap. Frankly, I think they subconciously like the fact that they have excuses, makes them not have to live up to expectations and hype. Well, I don't buy it. They should be playing better baseball.

No joke. When the Cubs won two of three at Minute Maid a couple of weeks ago, I thought the Astros were gone. But they played better than I've ever seen them play against the Cubs last weekend. Along with Florida, the whole Wild Card race has become a lot more frightening for Cubs fans.

But, then again, Houston still has several with the Cardinals left. There I go again, rooting for the Cardinals. :D

Come on, why add that in? What about the phantom tag on Monday in Montreal that got the Cubs out of the inning?

By adding that comment you are adding legitimacy to the excuse. The Cubs are a inconsistent team that is underachieving, plain and simple. The expectations are/were high for this team and if they don't get to the World Series this season, the fans are not going to be happy. To not make the playoffs would be a complete disaster, personally I'd like to see that to see the fallout! :D

I added that in because it's what I've seen. I'm not saying that they haven't had the benefit of some calls throughout the year, nor am I legitimizing their whining in any way whatsoever. I've been watching baseball for a long time, and the old adage is that the calls tend to balance out in the end. From my perspective, and I think I'm pretty good at being objective, they have not yet balanced out. They may do that in the month of September, but to this point, the Cubs have had more calls go against them that cost them games than I can remember.

Saying all that does not change the fact that they are an inconsistent, and underachieving team, and I'm sorry that you think that's what I was saying. But saying that it's plain and simple is incorrect, in my humble opinion. In a 162 game season, nothing is plain and simple. The Cubs have cost themselves plenty of games because of their own ineptitude, and I think I've been very honest about that. But from what I've seen, they have had a lot of calls go against that.

In my original response to the article you posted, I said very clearly that "to constantly make excuses about it is ridiculous." Observing that something has occurred and allowing it to be a crutch are two very different things. Every team has obstacles to overcome during a season, and it seems to me that all this Cubs team has done is concentrate on those obstacles, whether they be umpires, scuffles with other teams, or injuries, rather than focusing on winning. That's a shame to me.

I still do think that the Cubs are going to make the playoffs, and I think they'll be a dangerous team if they do. I will also agree with you about the expectations of Cubs fans. Expectations are something Cubs fans are rarely granted, and we've put a lot of emotion on it this year. If the Cubs don't make the playoffs, I won't make excuses.