Jim Edmonds' Ejection
 

What a total, absolute crock.

I'm trying to not be a homer, but I'm fairly sure I'd feel the same way if, say, Morgan Ensberg got tossed by the umpire at a key moment late in Game 4 of the NLCS.

No excuses for the Cards on the loss, by the way. I just think the umpiring was terrible and Edmonds getting run was ridiculous.

I agree. But at the same time Edmonds dropped an f-bomb on the umpire. He can't complain.

Jim Edmonds' Ejaculation?

What a total, absolute cock.

Yup...Jimmy was getting the short end of the stick up there...but, still no excuse for what he did...VERY silly to get tossed over balls and strikes in the playoffs...it doesn't do ANYBODY any good.

It was a god awful umpiring performance. Someone should tell these jackasses that they aren't paid to be the show - assholes like Cuzzi should recognize that there job is not to change the gameplay unless the guy does something ridiculous.

Edmonds decided to argue a call during an at-bat. Not after he was out, but during the at-bat. And he didn't just go to the box and throw a few words over his shoulder, he had to go nose-to-nose with the ump to make sure everyone knew what he was doing. It seemed from the replay that the ump told him "get back in the box", and he replied with an f-bomb. I don't care what the game situation is, that's going to get you tossed 100 times out of 100.

BS, complete BS.

Look at me, I'm on ESPN!! Woo Hoo!!!!

This I agree with.

So Maple Leafs, you think Edmonds should just take the ass-pounding like a trooper? That was an outrageously bad strike call at a key moment in a playoff game and series. I'm not condoning what Edmonds did but the umpire should have been bigger than that. Instead, he had a quick trigger and tossed him like any other game.

I dunno. I think he got in an upire's face to argue balls and strikes.

This should be on a quiz they give guys in the minor leagues. "What happens to you when you stand in the umpire's face to argue balls and strikes?"

There really is only one answer. No matter the game or the game situation. You try to show up the umpire, you will get tossed.

Jim Edmonds is not the umpire, and is required to submit to the umpire's judgement. If the call were correct, would his ejection have been justified? That's nonsense. Arguing balls and strikes will get you ejected, even if you're right, even in the playoffs. I like Edmonds, but he has no case here; he was an ass and got what he was asking for.

No parody thread yet... there's hope for us yet.

Yes.

I don't care if the ball was three feet inside (instead of a few inches), he has to think about the team first. Argue if you want, but as soon as the ump tells you to get back in the box then you turn around, shut your mouth and get back in the box.

Your team's entire season is on the line, now is not the time to show what a tough guy you are by refusing to back down from the ump.

With the way he reacted to the call, there is no way Edmonds does not get tossed at that point. I don't care if its in the playoffs or whatever, you just can't do that to an ump and expect to get away with it.

What game were you watching? He didn't kick dirt on him, spit in his face, nor bump him. He argued for a min and BAM! he was ejected out of the game.

That's bullshit you can't make a few comments without getting tossed so quickly. You can't tell me that ump didn't want to be the center of attention.

The umpire told him to get back in the box (basically a warning, without actually using the word "warning") and Edmonds decided to continue arguing. What would you do if you were the ump MizzouRah? Give him an additional warning? Its a fact that arguing balls and strikes will get you ejected. I would have thrown his ass out right then and there too, and I'm a huge Edmonds fan.

Bingo.

What bullshit, the Umpire should have turned and walked away and let the Cardinal coaches pull him away. If Edmonds had bumped him, then yes, toss him, but it looked more like a discussion then anything else.

Couldn't have said it better.

Arguing balls and strikes at all levels of baseball is a zero-tolerance act that will get you tossed. I think the ump showed remarkable tolerance. It's one thing if a batter goes about his business and says a call is BS and argues with the umpire but nobody knows it because it isn't obvious. It's another thing when you stop the at-bat and start arguing. And even then Edmonds didn't get run. It wasn't until the umpire said the argument was over and told him to get back in the box and Edmonds cursed at him that he tossed him. Sean is absolutely right -- this will get you run every single time, whether it's the bottom of the ninth of game seven of the World Series or a cold, dreary April night in Kansas City.

This isn't Little League where players are told to never question umpires either, to throw a player out like that is ridiculous.

I was actually going to start a conversation about the Cardinals' meltdown in this series, and I think what I was going to say is already in evidence.

I readily admit I'm the anti-homer because I hate the Cardinals with a passion, but this is exactly why. It's bad enough that the organization is cocky and arrogant, but their fans are just as bad. Cougar, MizzouRah -- I love you guys and I think you're fantastic. Two of my best friends are Cardinals fans. I don't think this reflects on you as people, I think it's just an unfortunate character trait that your fan base seems to possess -- you're all bad losers when it comes to your baseball team.

By comparison, look at our Missouri Tigers. Mention the Fifth Down or Tyus Edney or the The Kick to a Tigers fan and you might get an initial curse word followed by a misting of the eyes. When things go against us, we have "Here we go again" mentality and cry ourselves to sleep. But mention Don Denkinger to a Cardinals fan and you're going to get your head torn off and a Imo's Pizza shoved up your ass, if you're lucky. It's a different mindset, even if it's the same people.

This team is just like its fans -- first bit of adversity and they fold-up and start pitching fits. I think the Cardinals are like the Oakland Raiders -- I think the team gets their attitude from the fans. The next Cardinals fan or player who admits that Edmonds deserved to get tossed will be the first, and I don't think it will happen.

I love you guys, but being a Cardinals fan apparently means putting all reason and commonsense aside.

Your discussion here is lacking a little bit more of the situation. The manager had been tossed previously for arguing balls and strikes, so the entire Cardinals team had been warned. Any further questioning of balls/strikes calls by the Cardinals (or the Astros for that matter) was probably going to result in an ejection. The atmosphere of the game is a very important part of this "discussion".

As far as where I stand on the issue, Edmonds deserved to be ejected. There is no way around it.

The Cards are where they deserve to be, down 3-1, I don't think anyone is saying anything different. What we are saying is, it's shitty to throw someone out like that, ANY team.

Okay, you're the second person here to call me, directly or indirectly, a bad loser, and I must say that I am genuinely offended. The fact that Edmonds is a Cardinal is irrelevant. I said it in the initial post: And yes, EDMONDS DESERVED TO BE TOSSED. I admit that! Read my lips: I AM A CARDINAL FAN AND I ADMIT THAT. Alert the media! What I am saying is that in spite of having every right to toss a player for that offense, the umpire should make every effort NOT to do so. Why do you think games are called so differently in the playoffs in virtually every sport?

Although the call was a really poor one, I agree with the fact that Edmonds deserved to get tossed.

As for the arguments that the umpire should have turned his back and let the coaches pull Edmonds off, maybe all of that is true if that at-bat is over. But this was in the middle of the at-bat, and Edmonds had his say and still refused to get back in the box.

Which just so happens to be one of my main issues with virtually every sport.

...

I truly don't believe he should have been tossed, sorry call me a homer. I am a friggin bad loser though, screw you Astros!!!! :D Love ya Jeebs. ;)

In a normal season game, I'd bet anyone here Edmonds would NOT have been thrown out that soon. Oh well, Johnny load almost hit one out to end the discussion anyway.. but he didn't and that friggin Lidge escaped. I still have hope tonight, I'm not giving up!!!

Wow, these St Louis threads have a lot of improper objects shoved into improper places ;)

SI

Looks safe to me.

Great argument, except its not what happened.

"Make a few comments" and "Drop the F-Bomb" are perhaps different, wouldn't you agree?

At a meeting at work, they won't kick me out for making a few comments. They would do so for dropping the F-bomb. See the difference?

Argue it was a terrible ejection and I may not disagree. But at least argue the facts.

Then all you need is to be deaf and you'd have hit the trifecta.

Umpires are human, just like we are! They can only take so much abuse and shit talking. I am sure the umpire was tired of being yelled at felt he had to do something. You can't blame the umpire for what he did, they aren't perfect. I am just suprised Cardinal fans aren't blaming the umpires for their losses :p

I'm no Cardinal fan, but that call ended up costing me over $200 dollars.
Denkinger must DIE!! Well okay I know he's dead, but I still haven't been able to soften my heart toward that his role in that debacle.

Geez, it was one bad call, and it was over ten years ago. You sports fans need to learn how to let things go.

/irony

Denkinger isn't dead. They had a special on ESPN last night about him. He recieved death threats over a year after he had made that call. Some Cardinal fans are pathetic. And that call didn't cost the Cardinals the game... if they would have struck the next batter out, or just not panicked like they did, then they probably would have won.

(ala IRC)
/me Yells "Kerry Fraser!"
*Maple Leafs goes into a crazed rage before settling into a corner in the fetal position, sucking his thumb*

;)

SI

I'm trying to remember a case where a player gets in the face of an umpire and doesn't get tossed. Can't think of one, because it always ends in ejection (I'm sure someone will post with a counter-example).

Per Jim Edmonds
Argue those facts.

Maybe that was you behind home plate listening to the whole discussion. :rolleyes:

I mostly hate the Cards because I hate Tony LaRussa. If anyone else manages that team, I'd be neutral on them.

Of course, the Astros have Craig Biggio on their team, the cheapest HBP man of our generation, and Roger Clemens, who I haven't liked since he was a fetus

A tough choice.

Go White Sox.

When you watch the video its obvious Edmonds dropped an F-bomb. Give me a break. He can say whatever he wants, but its on video.

I see both feet off the ground and the ball in the mitt. Without knowing if he's coming down onto the bag, or going up to make the catch, I'd be hard-pressed to look at that picture and say that was a bad call.

You don't happen to have any photos from later in the same inning, like Orta being forced out on a botched sacrifice bunt attempt by the Orioles, of Jack Clark dropping an easy pop foul, Darrel Porter letting a wild pitch going all the way back to the screen or Hal McRae taking an intentional walk to load the bases?

I'm not a great lip reader, but unless Edmonds was offering to "tuck" Cuzzi in for the the night and read him a bedtime story, the video doesn't support Edmonds' version of events.

Edmonds' version sounds a bit like Homer Simpson remembering something. I almost expect the next line in Edmonds' version to begin, "So then I said to the president of the United States ..."

In one of Edmonds' previous at bats he looked back a couple of times and they had words then...so, I'm thinking this was an ongoing thing and umpie certainly wasn't going to take Edmonds' lip service a second time...and the fact that Tony had already been tossed for arguing. I don't think it was going to take much arguing this time around for Edmonds to get the boot.

Ok, I gotta admit. The "tuck" line had me laughing for a couple of minutes.

SI

Just as an FYI, Edmonds does that on virtually every at-bat throughout the season. A lot of times he does it to see if a pitch he swung at would have been a called strike, but he tends to have an ongoing discussion with the umpires throughout the game.

Does anyone have a link to the video?

I don't think that Edmonds shouldn't have been ejected, but the ump had an AWFULLY quick trigger.

If a coach or player drops an F-bomb on me, as an umpire, he's gone at that moment. Shy of physical contact, you can say just about anything else you want to me and I'm probably not going to kick you out unless you refuse to let the matter drop, but that's my trigger for tossing somebody.

Foul language directed at me or one of my crew = shower time.

Again, if Edmonds was just out for a "discussion" he could have stayed in the batter's box and chatted all day long. Most of us have played baseball at some point, we know how to do it. You can talk to just about any umpire all day long if you don't go looking to show them up. But once Edmonds goes nose-to-nose behind the plate, he's trying to put on a show. He's looking to embarass the guy. See you later, hit the showers.

You like those "crew showers" don't you Sack?......

You know, if you have to make insertions or deletions to what somebody said, the joke probably isn't as funny as you think it is.

Swearing during a ball game? Shocking! :rolleyes:

I honestly can't believe that people think that swearing doesn't go on by both players and umpires. If using the F word is a offense worth throwing someone out, there wouldn't be much of a bench left. One thing I've learned about internet message boards is, it's the most holier than thou place on earth.

I have to rewatch it, but to me, he wasn't "nose to nose" either, he had his head down so it didn't appear to be aggressive.

Touche Sack. I'm definately not as thoughtful as you.

I think you are grasping at straws here.

Another good point -- he did not at all get 'in his face,' he was just talking to him from outside the batter's box.

Hey if you honestly believe that the F word isn't used on a ball field or is worthy of ejection any time it's used, you are going to think that way.

No one's saying that- I'm sure it gets said all the time. But if you say it to the ump, you're running a really good risk of getting tossed.

SI

I respect your opinion, Maple Leafs, but I just don't think that was the case in this instance. I haven't seen the video since last night, but as I recall Edmonds backs out of the way of a high & inside pitch, then turns away and hears the strike call. Incredulous, he wheels around and begins barking at the umpire, who after a few words tosses him. He wasn't trying to "show him up" (which may be the most abused term in baseball, IMO), he was shocked and pissed that an umpire could call THAT bad a pitch a strike.

I haven't seen it since last night (watching it live) so I'll have another look tonight -- no doubt it will be replayed endlessly.

This is only even a discussion because Edmonds is so well liked and percieved as a 'nice guy.' If the player in question was Carl Everett or Jeff Kent or Roger Clemens (remember 1989?) the player in question would be getting justifiably crucified.

So if a player says what the fuck was that he should get tossed? If you are saying there are different rules for using the F word, then I think you are definitely agreeing with the people who are saying he shouldn't have been tossed. It didn't appear to me he called the ump a MF'er which is known as the "magic" word.

To me the difference is between "what the fuck was that?" and "fuck you."

Incorrect, if Houston fans were saying it was a crappy thing to do, but we loved it, I could understand that. I think the ump handled it wrong no matter the team or the player.

So it would have been ok to say "you're bullshit"? I just don't see the aggressiveness that normally gets a player thrown out on a ball/strike discussion at the plate that everyone else is seeing. I think the umpire was trying to be a hardass, though I don't think it affected the outcome of the game.

Tony Larussa had already been ejected! That makes *any* attempt to argue balls and strikes, no matter how politely done, incredibly stupid.

Well, this has certainly been a interesting discussion, I'm moving on to Game 5 and hope the rest of the "asshat Cardinal" fans are too.

Surprisingly, I can't find video of the incident anywhere. But here's a segment on what happened from ESPN.com, for what it's worth:

I just hate when the umpires seemingly have more impact on the game than the players, especially in the playoffs. Edmonds should have known better yes, but that seemed like an awfully quick toss to me. It's not like he went all Lou Piniella on the guy.

I still didn't see him say, "Fuck You". I did see him say after the fact, "Pussy". When I heard players like Eckstein were pissed for that ejection, I figured something was foul.

Thanks WSU.. that explains what they were talking about earlier.


Moving on... :)

Asshat! :p ;)

This asshat is going to a bar tonight, not sure what could happen at home with the TV and all. Plus my kids would like to come out of hiding. :p

That's a different phrasing of the same version earlier; it's told only from Edmonds point of view. To his credit, Cuzzi has said anything about it. He could easily have gone into detail and about what happened and attacked back, but that's not his job. His job is to make the calls and not make himself the story. I will bet the house he didnt' want to run Edmonds, but he had no choice after LaRussa had already gone off the on the umpires and the Cards kept beefing about the calls.

I think we all need to have a refresher viewing of the Cocksucker Scene from Bull Durham. There's certain things you can't do or say to an umpire. Edmonds could have cursed a blue streak at Cuzzi as long as he's in the box and taking a few practice swings and looking at the pitcher. But the moment he steps out of the box and acts increduous and makes a show of it, he's going to get run. I think the umps put up with a lot from the Cards before finally showing someone the door.

Prediction: Game 5 will probably be something like 11-0 and the Cards won't even show up. They've already beaten themselves.

For what it's worth, this is how I saw the play.

Edmonds check-swings a high and tight pitch.

Edmonds steps out of the box thinking it was a ball.

Cuzzi calls it a strike.

Edmonds turns to him and says something I would assume to be close to "Are you kidding me?"

Cuzzi says something to him back.

Edmonds says something else, that looked suspiciously to me like "Fuck that."

Cuzzi immediately tosses him.

That's my take on the subject. The ump had already tossed one person for arguing the strike zone, what the hell makes you think that he's not going to do the same to you?

But according to Edmonds, what he actually said was "Pardon me sir, but I must say that was a frightfully bad call, kindly try a little harder next time, please and thanks".

I mean, there's no reason not to accept his version of events as absolute truth.

It honestly amazes me that any player, professional or amatuer would ever believe that arguing a call will benefit them in any way. I've been on both sides of the fence, and if I've made a bad call, odds are I know it before anything is said to me by a coach or player. There are always plays that come along later that are going to be tight or questionable that will tend to fall the other way to even things out, especially if the earlier call didn't result in somebody getting in my face or making some remark as to my heritage or mother's line of work. I can handle being told I blew a (missed) call, but there is a proper way to do it and a proper time.

Ditto for when I'm playing. I tend to be the guy who will talk a ref or ump's ear off before/during/after a game when I'm in their vicinity. I like to get a feel for their personality not only to (hopefully) get on their good side, but to get a feel for what they like to call. The only time I will ever question them is when (generally in hockey) they start to lose control of a game/situation that could result in somebody getting hurt as emotions esclate. Other than that, the closest I'll come to calling them out is usually something to the effect of, "How come you let that go?" or "Would you mind keeping an eye on #, he's getting pretty loose with his stick". Most of them are smart enough to realize that if I'm saying that to them that it's also a statement that if the guy I'm talking about keeps on as he is, then somebody on our team will likely start returning the favor.

Edmonds has been around long enough he should have known that his point was more than made (hell, it was before LaRussa was ejected) and that no good was going to come from talking to the umpire any longer in that situation. He would have been much better suited to direct some of that emotion into his play over the rest of the game rather than even run the risk of being tossed.

There will always be bad calls, it's how you deal with them, overcome them and hopefully get a few your way later on that matters, at least to me.

Dude, he was talking to the ump for like two seconds before he got ejected, and that's the gripe I have with the whole thing. I've played enough sports (and hollered at enough officials) to know that when something you percieve as a bad call happens, it's frustrating as hell, and though I have a tremendous amount of respect for people that officiate, I usually say something not very nice (I try not to curse, and I don't ever curse AT the ref/ump) just as a knee-jerk reaction.

With the tone of the game and LaRussa already tossed, I can see why the ump had a quick trigger. I don't think that Edmonds deserved to be tossed that quickly.

Heh, pennywise can vouch for me yelling at basketball refs in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure why he had to go out of his way to make something up. Well, I guess we can't be sure that he said what we all thought he said.

However, most of us are very familiar with the word that we suspect he said, and what it looks like to say it. And it certainly looks like he said it.

Honestly, at that point in the game, with everything that had gone on, Edmonds saying anything to the ump was a bad idea. Edmonds wasn't tossed after the first few words and was told to get back in the box, at that point, get back in the box and get your focus where it should be. He choose to keep going, and even though it wasn't a long exchange, as soon as he decided to keep going after being told to get back in the box, this wasn't going to end in any other way. Had the entire exchange consisted of 1) the pitch 2) the call 3) Edmonds turning and saying, "What the hell?!" 4) the Toss, then I could definitely see a reason to get on the umps case, but when 4) was actually "that's it, get back in the box" followed by 5) "______" (whatever Edmonds decided to say at that point) 6) will always be the ejection. Edmonds could have had his brief say and stayed in the game, he had to make one last point.

I don't think Edmonds idiotic tantrum (albeit minor, it was still idiotic) cost the Cardinals the game or anything, but imagine if, in a similiar situation, Trot Nixon had been ejected from a playoff game. Red Sox Nation would be KILLING him. Cardinals fans always think their players do no wrong. I used to room with a guy who still insists that McGwire never took steroids.

Or not. :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blew that one. Cardinals fans wouldn't enjoy some of the commentary going on talk radio in Kansas City this morning. Most people are happy to see local kid make good with Pujols hitting the crucial homer, but there was a sense that Edmonds' ejection may have helped last night because some of the hosts think that he got a couple of calls on his walk in the ninth. I don't agree with that personally. I think Lidge was imploding and couldn't hit a spot to save his life.

What a meatball Lidge threw up there. I think most of us could have hit that one out, although not as far as Pujols did. I believe it was Al Michaels last night who likened the homerun to Dave Henderson's shot in the '86 playoffs for Boston. Frightenting thing is that is what I thought of immediately too. If Houston goes on to lose this serious, I'd hate to Lidge's career take the same turn that Donnie Moore and Mitch Williams took after they gave up crucial home runs in similar situations and were never right again.

I believe that is the farthest I've ever had to scroll to see a whole message on FOFC.

Yeah, that occurred to me and Dad, too, after he quit laughing his ass off (see the Ping: JeeberD thread for details).

LOL, i thought it would crop down to the next line so i just kept on doing em....glad i now hod, a record

As much as I hate parody threads, I'm really suprised no one has started a 'Jim Edmond's Erection' thread.

Steve already whipped out the "Jim Edmonds' Ejaculation" joke in post three, so really any attempt at thread parody at this point would be sloppy seconds.

I hate myself.