Who is the best hockey player ever?
 

Let the masses decide.

I can't imagine this being very close...

I would tend to agree, but I've heard passionate arguments for Lemieux in the past. We shall see, BeeHopper.

Nikolai Khabibulin

And I've heard passionate arguments for Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe. We shall indeed see, WSUCougarHopper.

For the record, I prefer SkyBee. ;)

Bobby Orr was the best ever.

Another country heard from!

What about Klima?:D

I'd say Bobby Orr was the best ever.

He's like the Gail Sayers in the Running Back debate.

If he didn't retire at 32, no one would ever touch the records he set for defensemen.

A strong case could be made. Amazing offensive talent. Crazy antics. Wonderfully bushy mullet. Cool helmet. All the elements are there and then some!

Not to slight Howe or Lemieux, but if you put the two of them next to Gretzky in a lineup and then ask somebody who has no idea about hockey who the best hockey player of the three of them is...I assure you Gretz doesn't get a single look. Guys like Howe and Lemieux should dominate any physical sport they play because they have been born with all the physical tools to facilitate that.

Gretzky, on the other hand, used what he had and DOMINATED the game in every way despite not being the biggest, or strongest, or fastest guy on the ice.

Now, Bobby Orr, I could listen to an argument about him being one of the greatest as he really revolutionized how defensemen play the game.

What is this hockey you speak of?

This poll is silly... Howe and Orr should be on the list as well as Sawchuck.

Though Gretz kills them all.

Reggie Dunlop

this poll is indeed silly... if you even have to ask you just don't get it. No one will ever touch what one of these guys did... never. Up until a few days ago I put Wilt's 100 close to 99's point total. Not now... no one will ever get even that close.

Any discussion of the best ever must include both Howe and Orr. I would also include Maurice Richard. With that said, i say Gretzky is the best ever, followed by Orr, Howe, Lemiuex and Richard.

I have always thought this debate is much closer than most people think it is. I think the biggest thing that hurt Lemieux is all the time he missed because of injury/cancer. In pure numbers no one stacks up with Gretzky. However his prime was in an ERA that produced FAR more offense on the whole than Lemieux's prime. Granted they overlap, but Gretzkys 90 goal, 150 assist seasons came in the offensive period and on some absolutely ridculously talented Oilers teams.

Super Mario doesn't have the total numbers that Gretzky does, but when Gretzky finished he finished with an average of 1.9 points per game for his career. Mario is at 1.88 points per game going into this season. Now certainly Gretzky played a little too long and brought his average down some, but at the same time he again played in a more offenive ERA in his prime.

In the end of Lemieux doesn't miss so much time I think the argument between the two is very close. Lemieux would have been much closer in terms of total production and he was still getting better in 89 when he had his 199 point season. With all that being said I think Gretzky is the better player, but as I said I think the debate should be much closer than it is.

Maurice Richard

(I am biased)

Wait. Is this someone posting in a clearly identified hockey thread about how they hate hockey or think hockey is an irrelevant sport that no one cares or knows about? Is that what this is?

Quite hillarious, not to mention terribly original.

Eddie Shore

Old time hockey

At least I was subtle with my cool name and slapshot references.

I would be ok with Rocket being included in a discussion of who the best goal scorer ever was. Although I still wouldn't say he is even that, but as far as overall hockey player he just doesn't stack up.

I think Jean Beliveau is in the discussion somewhere, but further down (though ahead of, say, Messier).


Perhaps, but that's a part of the game. You could say that Terrell Davis would have been better than Jim Brown or Walter Payton if he didn't run into injury problems, but you'll never know. For the few years he was healthy, he was just as good. I realize Lemieux played far more years, but the concept is the same.

As for the 'offensive era' argument against Gretzky. You can easily argue that the Oilers team was responsible for the booming offensive of the 80s. In the late 70s with the Flyers and early 80s with the Islanders, you didn't have a very offensive era. The Oilers just scored like crazy and other teams had to open it up to even compete with them.

Um, Howe. Hands down.

I understand what you are getting at... just wanted to mention that if you are comparing points for a game for both you cannot take Gretzky's latter years into account. I can only assume that Lemieux would have declined some in his last years. I am also not a fan of what-ifs. Lets compare actual known quantities. Also, it's hard if not impossible to estimate what Lemieux would have done with better talent around him. he didn't have it so that doesn't enter into my equation.

I agree that the chasm is not as wide as most think, but the chasm is still there.

Slapshot references are funny. You're ok here, smurf. You're ooookay. ;)

It's cool to be loved by the hockeykrishnas.

Not even close.

Maybe... maybe you could argue that if Lemeiux had stayed healthy he could have matched Gretzky. But he didn't.

You have to have Ore and Howe on the list.

I'd have him equal with Orr for 3rd. They both dominated their era's, but were injured too much. Where Mario shines is in the department of what he gave back to the game.

As a player, he is 98% of Wayne.

To answer the first part of your question I wasn't using Lemieux's injuries as an excuse. I was just stating a fact that it is what has hurt him the most in this debate. So I am not arguing that we should excuse it. I was just pointing out that in many people's minds there is no comparison between the two and I think that is the biggest reason why.

And for the offensive ERA I didn't have time to run through the numbers as thoroughly as I wanted to, but from 80 to 87 wehn Gretzky left the OIlers the league averaged 3.8 goals per game after you took out the Oilers production. I then started to run Lemeiuxs numbers. Between 86 and 85 which is as far as I got the league averaged 3.6 goals per game. And that was not even taking the Penguins out of the equation and they were geenrally mognth tops in the league in goals in the early 90s. Assuming I removed them it would likely be in the 3.5 range and would continue to fall after 95. So I think it is pretty clear to say Gretzky's prime was in a more offensive era even without the player's own teams in the mix.

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey

He has declined some in his last years. And that was taken into account in his numbers as well. If you were going to chop off some years on Gretzky then wouldn;t you need to estimate the prime years Lemieux missed? It's not fair in the averages to only take Gretzky's best years and not give Lemeiuex at least some credit for what he would have done if not missing so much time.

In the end I think it is best tp just say for the total number of games they played each player averaged X number of points. And again when Gretzky was averaging 2.5 points per game he was doing it in a more offensive period and on an insanely loaded team.

Sure it is impossible to say for certain how either player would have done if the roles had been reversed, but you have to make assuptions when you are having these debates. It is not fair to either player to not try and balance the situations out.

The only reason somebody would give an answer other than "Gretzky" is to show off their hockey knowledge. Gretzky is like Babe Ruth - everybody likes to argue that somebody else was better than him, but there's no agreement on who the main contender is.

a more interesting poll would be "Who's the best 'Goon' of all time?". Which, of course, the answer would be Bob Probert;)

Is this a joke? Whoe other than Gretzky could you even think about as the greatest?

Mario Lemieux

Lemieux may be great, but he is not even close to the greatest.

Phil Kessel

(I'm biased and an idiot)

comedy randy mckay response

Kurt Rambis

Oh wait, wrong sport.

At least you are offering some supporting evidence.

This is the problem in these types of debates. In general the people who argue that Gretzky, Ruth and Jordan were the greatest of their respective sports never really give much of an argument. Those three are just generally considered the greatest and so the rest on that.

I have made what I think is a pretty solid argument to why Lemieux is in fact very close to Gretzky (although I too believe Gretzky still has the edge). What flaw do you see in my argument other than you just think Gretzky is the greatest?

In the end, Lemieux averaged 1.88 points per game. What's more astonishing is the fact he only averaged 53.8 games per season and missed several more all together.

I can't believe Steve Trout isn't totally dominating this poll.

by stats, Gretzky of course, but I would have loved to see Lemieux play as many games as Gretzky did...

I they were both standing there, top shape, same age, etc.. I would draft Lemieux over Gretzky though.

Orr was +92 one season......that's f'n sick.

Yeah, but the definitive statistic tells all. Wayne Gretzky won 5 Lady Byng trophies to Bobby Orr's 0.

:D

the only problem i have with bobby orr being in this conversation is that paul coffey, statistically, is so far above anything orr ever did as.

And he was +124 in another IIRC, which is even sicker.

I heart Ray Borque. NHL 95 style

heard this on ESPN radio this morning...

what if mario had played every year that he could have. Let's say he beat Gretz' records. Would Gretzky still be known as 'the great one'?

He's got nuthin on Al Iafrate's slap shot!

Gretzky is the most talented hockey player ever.

Gump Worsley anyone? :D j\k

Seriously though the first name that always comes to mind for me when talking hockey is Bobby Orr. IMHO the greatest hockey player that I've seen play.

Al Iafrate was great. The guy was the fastest skater in the league, had the hardest shot, and no other discernible skills. Arguably the last star athelete who was also a chain smoker. And who could forget him wearing his helmet during the skills competition so that we could see the massive bald spot in the middle of his rocker hair cut.

Bobby Orr

I'll enter my black-n-gold obscured opinion. Agree with what has been mentioned here so far that based on sheer numbers, who can you pick anyone other than Gretz?

I saw someone use the word dominant/dominating earlier. I'd make an argument for Lemiuex at his peak being the most dominating.

Compare Gretzky's 1985-86 season (52 G / 163 A = 215 points) to Lemiuex's 1988-89 season (85 G / 114 A = 199 points). Gretz was playing along side Jurri, Lemieux with Rob Brown. Behind Gretz was Mark Messier, behind Lemieux was Dan Quinn. The one constant was Paul Coffey-- 48G/90A = 148 pts in 79 games with Gretz. 30G/83A=113 pts in 75 games with Lemieux.

Lemieux scored nearly 1/4 (24.5% / 85 of 347) of his teams goals that year. Even using Gretz's record 92 goals in 1981-82, he had "only" 22% (92 of 417).

You can also make an arguement (purely subjective) to the overall play of the ice. Not that Lemiuex was known for laying the body...but much more apt to than Gretz. Also, Mike Lange (Pens TV voice, so yes, probably another biased source) has said several times...when necessary, Lemieux can (more could now) be the best defensive player on the ice. I'll give that both players were used on key faceoffs, while neither was a dominant player in the faceoff circle. However, Lemieux could hold the puck and skate away nearly an entire 2 minute disadvantage on the PK. His size and reach and ability to shield the puck made him more adept than Gretz in this situation.

Exactly...that's why Gretzky is the greatest...he was and is a runt (physically speaking) and found a way to put up ridiculous numbers despite that fact. Lemieux, on the otherhand, could physical manhandle just about anybody he wanted to and if he didn't want to bother with that, he'd just skate right by them.

Lemieux probably realized his potential, but Gretzky GREATLY exceeded his.

I'm a Paul Coffey fan (actually, he is a cousin), but there is no Paul Coffey without Bobby Orr. Statistically, actually Orr has better points per game (1.39 to 1.09), but I won't deny that Coffey didn't put up some ridiculous numbers and not just with the Oilers.

Oh...I don't think that this has been mentioned yet...but 9 Hart Trophies (MVP) in 10 years compared to 2. I'd say that's pretty dominent.

If Gordie Howe played against today's players, he'd be hardpressed to score more than 20 goals in a season. But that's because he's pushing 78 and has slowed down a little.

Don't forget what Gretzky did for the Kings after he left the Oilers. He basically carried that team to the 93 Finals and they would have won, if not for Marty "F'n" Mc Sorely.

argument over

So wait, while Lemieux had pretty much nothing except him on his team, he only scored 24.5% of his team's goals. While Gretzky with all the talent on his team, still scored 22% of his teams goals? Give me the Great One.

Based on that argument...Kurt Warner has 2 Assoc Press (I guess that is the officially recognized MVP award?) NFL MVP awards, and Jerry Rice has none. So Kurt Warner was a better player?

Your wording of 'Gretzky with all the talent on the team'...was the original point. Opponents had to worry about not only the players along side Gretz (Kurri)...but also the next line rolled our (Messier). Was any opposing coach worried about Rob Brown, or not having a top checking line to go again Dan Quinn?

Kings only made the finals because of Kerry "F'n" Fraser

If they had any MVP award for just WR's, Rice would have plenty. Given that they only give 1 MVP a year to the best player, Warner had 2 all-world years and won MVP, Rice had 14+ all-world years with no MVP's. Rice is still the better player. Gretz was the best player in the leageu 9 out of 10 years, regardless of position.

But look how long Coffey played and how long Orr played. Orr retired at 32, when many guys are still in their prime.

Dola

Bobby Orr: 657 GP, 270 G, 645 A, 953 PT
Paul Coffey: 1409 GP, 396 G, 1135 A, 1531 PT

More then twice the games played, not even twice as many goals and assists.

Dominik Hasek

Year Team GP Min GA SO AVG W L T
1990-91 Chicago Blackhawks 5 195 8 0 2.46 3 0 1
1991-92 Chicago Blackhawks 20 1014 44 1 2.60 10 4 1
1992-93 Buffalo Sabres 28 1429 75 0 3.15 11 10 4
1993-94 Buffalo Sabres 58 3358 109 7 1.95 30 20 6
1994-95 Buffalo Sabres 41 2416 85 5 2.11 19 14 7
1995-96 Buffalo Sabres 59 3417 161 2 2.83 22 30 6
1996-97 Buffalo Sabres 67 4037 153 5 2.27 37 20 10
1997-98 Buffalo Sabres 72 4220 147 13 2.09 33 23 13
1998-99 Buffalo Sabres 64 3817 119 9 1.87 30 18 14
1999-00 Buffalo Sabres 35 2066 76 3 2.21 15 11 6
2000-01 Buffalo Sabres 67 3904 137 11 2.11 37 24 4
2001-02 Detroit Red Wings 65 3872 140 5 2.17 41 15 8
2002-03 Did Not Play N/A
2003-04 Detroit Red Wings 14 816 30 2 2.21 8 3 2
NHL Totals 595 34561 1274 63 2.31 296 192 82

Trophies
George Vezina Trophy - 6 (1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001)
William M. Jennings Trophy - 2 (1994, 2001)
Lester B. Pearson Trophy - 2 (1997, 1998)
Hart Memorial Trophy - 2 (1997, 1998)

Championships
Stanley Cup - 1 (2002)

Ken Dryden

Montreal Canadiens NHL 6 327 6 0 0 9 1.65 0
71-72 Montreal Canadiens NHL 64 3800 39 8 15 142 2.24 8
72-73 Canada SUMMIT SERIES 4 240 2 2 0 19 4.75 0
Montreal Canadiens NHL 54 3165 33 7 13 119 2.26 6
74-75 Montreal Canadiens NHL 56 3320 30 9 16 149 2.69 4
75-76 Montreal Canadiens NHL 62 3580 42 10 8 121 2.03 8
76-77 Montreal Canadiens NHL 56 3275 41 6 8 117 2.14 10
77-78 Montreal Canadiens NHL 52 3071 37 7 7 105 2.05 5
78-79 Montreal Canadiens NHL 47 2814 30 10 7 108 2.30 5
NHL All-Stars CHALLENGE CUP 2 120 1 1 0 7 3.50 0
EIGHT (8) NHL SEASONS 397 23352 258 57 74 870 2.24 46

6 Stanley Cups and 5 Vezina's.


These two should be in the argument as well.

Yeah, but the way hockey is played is not like football where you just match up your best player against their best player. Flip the RDE to LDE to take advantage of a match up.

In hockey, you have to match up lines against each other. From that vantage point, the fact that Messier is the back up center has no bearing on what you are doing against Gretzky. Heck, most teams had only one checking line anyway.

Let's not forget either that for many years, Lemieux some guy named Jagr on his wing.

If career totals mean anything in the greatest player agruement..

Gretzky assists = 1963
Lemieux total points = 1723


Gretzky is also the leading scorer of all-time..

I don't agree being named MVP = being the best player though. Especially in this argument. The original line I quoted said:



I am not arguing whether or not Gretz was great those years, clearly he was. Look at the numbers. I am arguing that citing MVP trophies doesn't automatically make him the best player. As you just said, Warner was out of his mind 2 years, but that didn't make him a better player than Rice, just more valuable to his team...

I have a hard time including goalies with all other players. It would be interesting argueing over the greatest goalie of all-time because those 2 are great..

Not forgetting that...but remember, Jagr didn't start to play on his wing until like 1993...by which point, hockey had become more like water-skiing on ice, dragging guys along with you. I know you can't really compare the eras...but that sadly is the truth. Like this entire argument, you can only speculate what sort of totals Lemieux-Jagr would have had playing in the mid-80's instead of the mid-90's.

I agree with you here...to me, very similar when you start comparing defensive players when Heisman hype starts...or (totally unrealistic) an offensive lineman. Who is to say Orlando Pace wasn't the best player in the country in 1997? But you can't quantify that like you can offensive numbers, and to a lesser degree, defensive numbers.

Prior to the rule changes (or better wording, calling the old rules)...Marty Brodeur was probably the most dominant NHLer in the last handful of seasons. But how do you compare his stats to a skaters stats?

Pat La..La..La..La..Lafontaine is the greatest American born player ever.

The Great One would be the greatest of All Time

Now you are comparing apples to oranges...yes, Kurt Warner was a better QB than Jerry Rice...but, Jerry Rice was a better WR than Kurt Warner.

Yes, in Edmonton, Gretzky had the better team when all the kids matured, but you are kidding yourself if you thought opposing coaches were worried about Messier's line beating them...they were playing their top checking line and best defensive defensemen against Gretzky and Kurri EVERY shift...same goes for Lemieux et al.

No I am not....where does the rule say the NFL MVP must be a QB? I am comparing football player to football player. In the main argument, Gretz and Lemiuex just happen to be C's. What about Orr though? Or, as someone mentioned earlier, goalies? They all can still win MVPs.

OK...still Gretz/Kurri or Lemieux/Rob Brown? Both those pairs on the ice, how many coaches worried about Rob Brown beating them?

Don't know much about hockey, my own favorite would be Ray Bourque, but the all time best has to be Gretzky, no?

If we are going to go into the what ifs...then, what if the Oilers of the 80's stay together until they retire?? Add another 1000 pts to Gretzky's already astounding totals and probably another 4 or 5 Stanley Cup banners.

What if the Oilers had stayed in the WHA?

I did add in the original post that it is ALL speculation.

you guys are missing the fact that the NHL retired #99, so no team will ever have a #99 on their roster. seems to me that the league recognizes gretzky as the greatest ever...as i dont think any other #s have been retired by the league

Pittsburgh media is already on this one...pushing for #66 to get the same treatment.

1 Wayne Gretzky 2857
2 Mark Messier 1887
3 Gordie Howe 1850
4 Ron Francis 1798
5 Marcel Dionne 1771
6 Steve Yzerman 1734
7 Mario Lemieux 1723

That is why the NHL retired #99..

You are misunderstanding. I'm arguing that Gretzky and the Oilers' offensive prowess made other teams in the league focus more on offensive, leading to an offensive era. When Gretzky is scoring 92 goals or 215 points, you can't focus on defense, you have to try to outscore them. In that way, Gretzky and the Oilers were responsible for the offensive era in hockey, which is more impressive (to me) than anything Lemieux did.

And longevity counts. People can say all they want about Sandy Koufax and how great he was in his prime. Walter Johnson is still better, and part of that is the amount of years he pitched.

Sure, a WR has just as much of a right to win the AP MVP award as a QB, but how many WRs have won it?? I'll tell you, none (there have been a couple who've won MVP awards by other "voters", not the AP). Why?? I don't know, I guess the AP feel that a WR's value is less than that of a QB's...right or not, that's the way it is. Sure, you can compare a QB with a WR but because their stats are so different, it's tough to make a fair comparison. Is a passing TD more valuable than a receiving TD?? Are passing yards more valuable than receiving yards?? I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, right??

Sure, in hockey, any position can win the Hart Trophy and every position has won it in the past...but, the fact still remains that Gretz has more of them on his mantle than anybody else. Does that mean he was the best player that year?? You'll say not necessarily so, but if you can find a better candidate during those years, I'm all ears.

So are you saying that the player chosen as MVP is not always neccesarily the BEST player overall, but (as the name states) the MOST VALUABLE overall?

Big surprise there. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I consider Patrick Roy the greatest goalie of my lifetime, not Hasek or Brodeur.

I really think that hands down it has to be Dryden as the best goalie ever. Look at his GA and Stanley Cups. His Goals against with the minimal padding they wore is unbelievable.

In any case, he is a great story. He was earning his law degree at McGill when he started his professional career. I am impressed by that.

Dryden is most definitely a legend, with a good argument as best ever. He's a bit before my time, though.

Why isnt Wyndell Clark on this list?

Because he wasn't the best player on his team?

I would like to go on record as saying that Ron Francis is the most underrated player of all time.

Surely you jest.Orr was 10 times the defender Coffey ever was.